Toni Nadal complains about Shanghai's surface [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Toni Nadal complains about Shanghai's surface

Julio1974
10-24-2005, 11:58 PM
Toni Nadal said Nadal has no chance of winning because of the surface..

Anyone willing to translate the whole article?


SU TÍO, DISGUSTADO CON LA SUPERFICIE
"Nadal no tiene ninguna posibilidad en Shanghai"
AGENCIAS

NOTICIAS RELACIONADAS
MADRID.- Toni Nadal, tío y entrenador de Rafael Nadal, expresó su disgusto con la ATP al comentar la elección de una superficie "super-rápida" para la disputa de la Copa Masters de Shanghai y calificó de "desfachatez, falta de sensibilidad con los jugadores y poco ecuánime" una pista así.
El técnico no se mordió la lengua. "En el circuito hay una serie de torneos en distintas superficies, las hay muy rápidas como el Masters Series de París, con sólo tres o cuatro torneos al año, y donde se perjudica a muchos jugadores del circuito", dijo. "De los que van al Masters más de la mitad son contrarios a estas pistas. Se debería buscar una pista intermedia. Ni la más rápida ni la más lenta. Han elegido la más rápida, y me parece un falta de sensibilidad para más del cincuenta por ciento de los tenistas", añadió.

"Ya me he encargado de al menos protestar enérgicamente, lo considero una desfachatez por su parte", dijo al referirse a la decisión de la ATP. Benito Pérez Barbadillo, responsable de prensa del ATP, señaló al respecto que la decisión de cambiar el tipo de superficie de la última Copa Masters disputada en Houston, de 'green set', al aire libre a 'gerflor' en pista cubierta en el Qi Zhong Stadium de Shangai, la misma que se encontrarán los jugadores en el Masters Series de París en dos semanas, forma parte de un contrato por un año.

"Es un nuevo contrato de la ATP y que cuenta con la aprobación del 'board' en la que se incluyen representantes de jugadores y directivos", dijo a EFE. La decisión de cambiar la superficie fue tomada en abril de este año. La ATP, en vista de cómo se desarrolle este año la competición y sobre todo, en bien del espectáculo, podría reconsiderar para el 2006 continuar o no con esta superficie.

"Entendemos la postura de Toni", continuó Pérez Barbadillo, "y tiene su parte de razón, pero antes hemos hablado con todos los jugadores para conocer su punto de vista". Sobre las posibilidades de su sobrino en esta superficie, Toni dejó entrever que serán muy pocas. "Imposible no hay nada, estoy a disgusto con la ATP por el Masters de Shangai, y entiendo que Rafa Nadal tiene nulas posibilidades. La ATP actuó de forma incorrecta porque Shangai es un torneo exclusivamente de la ATP, que decide la superficie dónde se va a jugar su sede. Aquí no ha sido ecuánime, es una superficie muy rápida contraria al juego de Rafa", añadió

"Con la pista que han elegido, han dejado sin opciones a un gran número de participantes, Coria, Nadal, Federer. Federer está opuesto a esta pista porque favorece a los cañoneros", observó Toni Nadal, quien no obstante, concedió el mayor favoritismo al suizo. "El que tiene más posibilidades de ganar es Federer. Sabiendo que es el mejor quiere jugar en una superficie en el que se pueda jugar, no donde una persona esté inspirada con el saque y no se la puedas devolver", dijo.

Toni Nadal recordó que una Copa Masters en una superficie más lenta se echa en falta. "El Masters no se ha hecho en tierra, no tiene explicación cuando ha habido grandes jugadores como Lendl, Muster. Ahora están Ferrero, Coria, se sabe que el espectáculo tenístico es mayor en pistas como Madrid, o como la del Abierto de Estados Unidos. En pista rápida, pero no ultra rápida. No hay razón para no seguir haciéndolo así".

El Legenda
10-25-2005, 12:02 AM
HIS UNCLE, DISPLEASED WITH the SURFACE "Nadal does not have any possibility in Shanghai" AGENCIES THE RELATED NEWS MADRID. - Toni Nadal, uncle and trainer of Rafael Nadal, the election of "a super-fast" surface for the dispute of the Glass Masters de Shanghai expressed its misfortune with the ATP when commenting and described as "brazenness, lack of sensitivity with the players and little even-tempered" a track thus. The technician did not bite the language. "In the circuit there is a series of matches in different surfaces, are very fast like the Masters Series of Paris, just by three or four matches to the year, and where one harms many players of the circuit", he said. "Of that they go to the Masters more than half is opposite to these tracks. An intermediate track would be due to look for. Neither fastest nor slowest. They have chosen fastest, and it seems to me a lack of sensitivity for more than the fifty percent of the tennis players ", it added. "I have already been in charge to protest at least energetically, I consider a brazenness on the other hand", said when talking about to the decision of the ATP. Benito Perez Barbadillo, person in charge of press of the ATP, indicated on the matter that the decision to change the type of surface of the last Masters Glass disputed in Houston, of ' green set', outdoors to ' gerflor' in track covered in the Qi Zhong Stadium de Shangai, the same one that will be the players in the Masters Series of Paris in two weeks, comprises of a contract by a year. "It is a new contract of the ATP and that counts on the approval of ' board' in which representatives of players and directors include themselves", he said to EFE. The decision to change the surface was taken in April of this year. The ATP, in view of how the competition is developed to east year mainly and, in or of the spectacle, could reconsider for the 2006 to continue or not with this surface. "We understand the position of Toni", she continued Perez Barbadillo, "and it has its part of reason, but before we have spoken with all the players to know its point of view". On the possibilities of its nephew in this surface, Toni let glimpse that they will be very few. "Impossible there is nothing, I am to misfortune with the ATP by the Masters de Shangai, and understand that Rafa Nadal has null possibilities. The ATP acted of incorrect form because Shangai is a match exclusively of the ATP, that decides the surface where it is going away to play his seat. Here he has not been even-tempered, is a surface very fast opposite to the game of Rafa ", added "With the track that has chosen, they have left without options a great number of participants, Coria, Nadal, Federer. Federer is opposite to this track because it favors the cannoneers ", observed Toni Nadal, that despite, granted the greater favoritism to the Swiss. "The one that has more possibilities of winning is Federer. Knowing that he is the best one it wants to play in a surface in which it is possible to be played, not where a person is inspired with the serve and you cannot be given back ", she said. Toni Nadal remembered that a Masters Glass in one more a slower surface lies down in lack. "the Masters has not become in earth, does not have explanation when there have been great players like Lendl, Muster. Now they are Ferrero, Coria, one knows that the tenístico spectacle is greater in tracks like Madrid, or the one of the Opened one of the United States. In fast, but nonextreme track fast. There is no reason not to continue doing it thus ".

Jimnik
10-25-2005, 12:07 AM
I agree that there should be a compromise rather than the fast surface, they seem to have chosen, for the TMC. Ideally they should pick a medium hard court like rebound ace because it is roughly half-way between grass and clay. According to Toni Nadal, they have picked a rather fast hard court.

El Legenda
10-25-2005, 12:09 AM
i dont mind the fast court :)

ReturnWinner
10-25-2005, 12:09 AM
I agree with tony nadal, that is unfair . the surface has to be one of medium speed and outdoor even why not clay. they never choose clay

Clara Bow
10-25-2005, 12:14 AM
I agree that there should be a compromise rather than the fast surface, they seem to have chosen, for the TMC. Ideally they should pick a medium hard court like rebound ace because it is roughly half-way between grass and clay. According to Toni Nadal, they have picked a rather fast hard court.

It sounds like Shanghai is even faster than the Decoturf of the US Open. And that's very fast then, and in my opinion is too much on the extreme side of fast.

disturb3d
10-25-2005, 12:25 AM
Who does Toni think he is. Punk.

Jimnik
10-25-2005, 12:25 AM
Fast clay courts or slow hard courts should be used.

They can either use American clay courts or Australian hard courts.

ys
10-25-2005, 12:27 AM
YEC is an equivalent of indoors Slam. It has to be fast. Nadal should be happy already that they allowed Madrid Masters to be held on that slow crap..

Galaxystorm
10-25-2005, 12:28 AM
I think there are only two fair options regarding the Masters cup surface:

1) Every year the Masters cup played on a different suraface, that is carpet, grass, outdoors hard , clay , a rotation

2) Search an intermediate surface, and this surface is outdoors hardcourt without no doubt . On hardcourt the serve-volley players can play his playstyle and the baseliners too, both playstyles are perfectly compatible and effective, a tournament on hard can be won from the baseline or playing near to the net.

And among hardcourts surface, i would say the best would be Greenset, because Decoturf ( for example US open ) is fast and Rebound ace is slow, Greenset is the intermediate, then Houston surface ( Greenset ) was the fair and perfect surface for a Masters cup.

Galaxystorm
10-25-2005, 12:32 AM
YEC is an equivalent of indoors Slam. It has to be fast. Nadal should be happy already that they allowed Madrid Masters to be held on that slow crap..

Your post makes no sense

Deboogle!.
10-25-2005, 12:37 AM
:haha: 2 years ago people were bitching nonstop about TMC being outside.... b/c it was in the US on a medium Greenset hardcourt (similar to Madrid actually) and now people are bitching that it's indoor. Shanghai held TMC 3 years ago, did it not? Is the surface significantly different from that? And what is Toni's basis of his comments? has he actually seen the surface and played on it? Somehow, I doubt that.

Mind you, Rafa has won matches at wimbledon, just won an indoor masters beating a fastcourt player not only in the final but many other rounds, and also he won Montreal which was supposedly playing very fast.

Honestly. :o

Galaxystorm
10-25-2005, 12:44 AM
:haha: 2 years ago people were bitching nonstop about TMC being outside.... b/c it was in the US on a medium Greenset hardcourt (similar to Madrid actually) and now people are bitching that it's indoor. Shanghai held TMC 3 years ago, did it not? Is the surface significantly different from that? And what is Toni's basis of his comments? has he actually seen the surface and played on it? Somehow, I doubt that.

Mind you, Rafa has won matches at wimbledon, just won an indoor masters beating a fastcourt player not only in the final but many other rounds, and also he won Montreal which was supposedly playing very fast.

Honestly. :o

There's a great difference between Shanghai 2002 and now, now its is on carpet and in 2002 was on hard..

I would like to see Roddick's reaction if a TMC was played on clay :o

amierin
10-25-2005, 12:47 AM
This is just expanding on statements made by Rafa before. The key phrase to me is when Toni says the surface is bad for "fifty percent of the players". He is being diplomatic but in effect he's saying the surface is geared for the American players who prefer the fast hard court as opposed to many others in tennis who would prefer a medium fast court. I don't know about fifty percent but I'm sure you guys will break his statement down.

We are being forewarned: Shanghai will be a serve fest.

Toni has a right to his opinion which should carry some weight. I doubt if the surface will be changed though.

star
10-25-2005, 12:47 AM
Toni Nadal! :woohoo: :woohoo:

I am glad he didn't "bite the language." :)

nobama
10-25-2005, 12:50 AM
This is ridiculous. I can bet you if TMC was played on red clay this year Andy Roddick's coach wouldn't be bitching about the surface. I agree that they should rotate surfaces, but this whining from Rafa's coach is just silly. He just won an indoor tournament on a faster surface, so I don't know what's unfair about it. :shrug:

I think he also said something about Roger and Lleyton complaining about this surface....does anyone have a direct quote from either of them?

star
10-25-2005, 12:50 AM
There's a great difference between Shanghai 2002 and now, now its is on carpet and in 2002 was on hard..

I would like to see Roddick's reaction if a TMC was played on clay :o

You will never see that. :lol:

I think the slowest ever was Lisbon, wasn't it?

The TMC is usually a hardcourt. I can't imagine why they chose to play it on carpet this year. There are few tournaments on carpet anymore.

Galaxystorm
10-25-2005, 12:50 AM
This is just expanding on statements made by Rafa before. The key phrase to me is when Toni says the surface is bad for "fifty percent of the players". He is being diplomatic but in effect he's saying the surface is geared for the American players who prefer the fast hard court as opposed to many others in tennis who would prefer a medium fast court. I don't know about fifty percent but I'm sure you guys will break his statement down.

We are being forewarned: Shanghai will be a serve fest.

Toni has a right to his opinion which should carry some weight. I doubt if the surface will be changed though.

Toni Nadal already said in September that Federer and Lleyton were against of this surface , Rafa obviously too, and we don't have to ask Coria to know if he agrees with this surface ;) .

ys
10-25-2005, 12:53 AM
We are being forewarned: Shanghai will be a serve fest.

Whine, whine, whine.. When was the last time a tournamet was a serve-fest and was won on serve alone? Big server with no big game has not won anything in tennis for ages.. A serve is a legitimate and important shot in the sport, and if the surface rewards this shot being good alone with other shots, what is wrong about it.

star
10-25-2005, 12:53 AM
This is ridiculous. I can bet you if TMC was played on red clay this year Andy Roddick's coach wouldn't be bitching about the surface. I agree that they should rotate surfaces, but this whining from Rafa's coach is just silly. He just won an indoor tournament on a faster surface, so I don't know what's unfair about it. :shrug:

I think he also said something about Roger and Lleyton complaining about this surface....does anyone have a direct quote from either of them?

You can bet there would be a lot of bitching about a clay surface and not just from Roddick. The players wouldn't like it one bit because it would be changing from a completely different set of surfaces to clay.

There was complaining because they had to go from indoors to outdoors when it was in Houston. If they had to go from indoor hard and carpet to clay, you can be sure there would be a lot of complaining. Maybe some of it would be behind the scenes manipulation rather than the straightforward talk from Toni Nadal.

star
10-25-2005, 12:55 AM
He is being diplomatic but in effect he's saying the surface is geared for the American players who prefer the fast hard court as opposed to many others in tennis who would prefer a medium fast court.


Why the use of the plural here? Andre Agassi certainly prefers a medium fast hard court and not carpet. I don't actually think Andy is that crazy about carpet either given his results on the surface.

disturb3d
10-25-2005, 12:55 AM
Toni Nadal already said in September that Federer and Lleyton were against of this surface , Rafa obviously too, and we don't have to ask Coria to know if he agrees with this surface ;) .Man, who do tennis players think they are. They're not even qualified as athletes, yet they make self-righteous comments and expect the ball to go their way (no pun intended).

On top of that, you've got Roger and his refusal to play with electronic line-calling... sheezus. Someone needs to snap that 90 pound swedish boy in half.

disturb3d
10-25-2005, 12:57 AM
The only notable American player who preffered fast courts was Pete Sampras.
The rest: Agassi, Connors, Chang, and Courier were all-court players.

NicoFan
10-25-2005, 12:59 AM
This is just going to be a serve contest with that surface.

Guess I won't be watching much of the Shanghai tournament.

bad gambler
10-25-2005, 01:00 AM
I think he also said something about Roger and Lleyton complaining about this surface....does anyone have a direct quote from either of them?
I can't see either of them complaining, especially hewitt

star
10-25-2005, 01:01 AM
Man, who do tennis players think they are. They're not even qualified as athletes, yet they make self-righteous comments and expect the ball to go their way (no pun intended).

On top of that, you've got Roger and his refusal to play with electronic line-calling... sheezus. Someone needs to snap that 90 pound swedish boy in half.


Swiss

nobama
10-25-2005, 01:02 AM
You can bet there would be a lot of bitching about a clay surface and not just from Roddick. The players wouldn't like it one bit because it would be changing from a completely different set of surfaces to clay.

There was complaining because they had to go from indoors to outdoors when it was in Houston. If they had to go from indoor hard and carpet to clay, you can be sure there would be a lot of complaining. Maybe some of it would be behind the scenes manipulation rather than the straightforward talk from Toni Nadal.But why is Toni complaining then? Seems to me this isn't going to be a completely different surface. I thought all these indoor tournaments were on faster surfaces. :confused:

Deboogle!.
10-25-2005, 01:03 AM
...but in effect he's saying the surface is geared for the American players who prefer the fast hard court as opposed to many others in tennis who would prefer a medium fast court.Agassi had his best results on slow, high-bouncing hardcourts (AO and Miami), and Andy's own coaches (present and former) all say he prefers a more medium-paced hardcourt. So this makes no sense. Plus, do you honestly think they are going to pick/adjust a court for the AMERICAN players? Ummmmmmmmmmmm......maybe that argument worked when it was in Houston and Mack was actually friends with the American players (but even then, it was the ATP that chose and installed the surface.), but in CHINA? oh, ok.

Mind you, I'm not saying I disagree with Toni. I had just assumed the surface was again a medium-paced Greenset, I don't understand why they chose carpet either. but I really don't think it's the Americans' fault - especially considering there are two other Wimbledon champions in the field who have excellent records on carpet, and another who has won the one carpet Masters multiple times...

Lee
10-25-2005, 01:04 AM
I'm a bit lost here. The TMC in Shanghai this year is on Indoor Carpet? Because every places I check, they said the tournament is on hard court.

Deboogle!.
10-25-2005, 01:05 AM
That's what I thought, Lee :shrug:

star
10-25-2005, 01:05 AM
But why is Toni complaining then? Seems to me this isn't going to be a completely different surface. I thought all these indoor tournaments were on faster surfaces. :confused:

Because of the carpet.

I'm glad he complained.

ys
10-25-2005, 01:06 AM
OK. Everything is clear. Ljubicic and Safin bribed the Chinese.. :lol:

nobama
10-25-2005, 01:07 AM
I wonder what the reaction here would be if it was Roger, Andy or Lleyton criticizing the surface in Shanghai.

Galaxystorm
10-25-2005, 01:07 AM
This is ridiculous. I can bet you if TMC was played on red clay this year Andy Roddick's coach wouldn't be bitching about the surface. I agree that they should rotate surfaces, but this whining from Rafa's coach is just silly. He just won an indoor tournament on a faster surface, so I don't know what's unfair about it. :shrug:

I think he also said something about Roger and Lleyton complaining about this surface....does anyone have a direct quote from either of them?

The ridiculous is that a TMC is never played on clay when together with hard , they are the two main surfaces on the ATP tour nowadays.
It seems clay is a third-world surface, and i think it's a joke and a great lack of respect that when ATP has decided to change TMC surface after several years played on hard, they have decided to choose a secondary surface ( i say secondary due to the number of tournaments played on this surface during ATP calendar nowdays) instead of choosing the second main ATP surface.

Clay has never been chosen as surface for a TMC.

Carpet :21 times ( from 1976 to 96 )
Hard : 9 times ( 1974 and from 1997 to 2004)
Grass : 1 time ( 1975)

And in 2005, another time on carpet.

nobama
10-25-2005, 01:09 AM
Because of the carpet.

I'm glad he complained.But Moscow, Basel, Lyon, St. Petersburg and Paris are all played on indoor carpet. I don't see what the problem is. :shrug:

Deboogle!.
10-25-2005, 01:10 AM
.... i think it's a joke and a great lack of respect that when ATP has decided to change TMC surface after several years played on hard,....This is EXACTLY the same argument many people here gave 2 years ago when it was learned that the Cup would be outdoors for the next two years.... always the same arguments.... So now it's back indoors and there's something else to complain about lol.

I agree that it should be on a neutral surface and I agree that a medium-slow HC is probably the most neutral, but obviously there is tons of precedent for it being on carpet so I don't see what the big deal is.

Where is it confirmed that it's on carpet rather than indoor hard anyway? b/c everywhere on the ATP Site says hardcourt, not carpet.

nobama
10-25-2005, 01:12 AM
The ridiculous is that a TMS is never played on clay when together with hard , they are the two main surfaces on the ATP tour nowadays.
It seems clay is a third-world surface, and i think it's a joke and a great lack of respect that when ATP has decided to change TMC surface after several years played on hard, they have decided to choose a secondary surface ( i say secondary due to the number of tournaments played on this surface during ATP calendar nowdays) instead of choosing the second main ATP surface.

Clay has never been chosen as surface for a TMC.

Carpet :21 times ( from 1976 to 96 )
Hard : 9 times ( 1974 and from 1997 to 2004)
Grass : 1 time ( 1975)

And in 2005, another time on carpet.Ok but since TMC is played right after the indoor season how easy would it be to switch to clay, after the players have played for a month or so indoors on faster surfaces?

Lee
10-25-2005, 01:13 AM
And I still waiting for the answer that where/when/who said the TMC will be indoor carpet. :shrug:

Galaxystorm
10-25-2005, 01:14 AM
This is EXACTLY the same argument many people here gave 2 years ago when it was learned that the Cup would be outdoors for the next two years.... always the same arguments.... So now it's back indoors and there's something else to complain about lol.

Do you think that after 31 years of TMC is fair that clay is the only surface that has never been chosen ???

Don't you think that nowadays clay is a more representative surface instead of carpet watching the number of tournaments played on both surfaces ??

Where is the justice ??

Deboogle!.
10-25-2005, 01:14 AM
Me too, Lee :confused:

Galaxystorm, it's played right at the conclusion of the indoor season, so I really think it'd be ridiculous to make the players acclamatize to clay again. I think that is the reasoning,

Lee
10-25-2005, 01:14 AM
The ridiculous is that a TMC is never played on clay when together with hard , they are the two main surfaces on the ATP tour nowadays.
It seems clay is a third-world surface, and i think it's a joke and a great lack of respect that when ATP has decided to change TMC surface after several years played on hard, they have decided to choose a secondary surface ( i say secondary due to the number of tournaments played on this surface during ATP calendar nowdays) instead of choosing the second main ATP surface.

Clay has never been chosen as surface for a TMC.

Carpet :21 times ( from 1976 to 96 )
Hard : 9 times ( 1974 and from 1997 to 2004)
Grass : 1 time ( 1975)

And in 2005, another time on carpet.

The only time that it's play on grass, the tournament was held in Australia. When TMC is held in South America, you bet it will be on clay ;)

ys
10-25-2005, 01:14 AM
I agree that it should be on a neutral surface

Why should it be on neutral surface? There is a Grand Slam on clay. There is a Grand Slam on grass. There are two Grand Slams on hardcourts. The carpet is just as legitimate tennis surface as the other three. TMC is the closest thing to Slam that we can have on carpet. It's only fair.

disturb3d
10-25-2005, 01:14 AM
Clay has never been chosen as surface for a TMC.The TMC is supposed to culminate with the best players playing on their best surface, thus producing the year-end champion.

Had the top 5 players in the world been clay-courters, you would see a clay TMC.
But 4 of the top 5 are hardcourters. Roger, Marat, Lleyton, Roddick.
It wouldn't be fair to cater to a player's requests who is but a minority in the group.

Galaxystorm
10-25-2005, 01:15 AM
And I still waiting for the answer that where/when/who said the TMC will be indoor carpet. :shrug:

I will post you the link within some minutes. ATP website has a lot of mistakes , mate ;)

renee_chin
10-25-2005, 01:16 AM
The world never fails to surprise you...

Has anyone actually played on that court before they make any comments? All these are based on theoretical knowledge, isn't it?

I would think hard-courts would be the more 'neutral' surface, given most players play well on it (barring the few who doesn't tend to wanna play on any surface but clay)...

IMHO - If Nadal doesn't do well in Shanghai, it may be down to fatigue rather than the court itself. He's pushing himself to the limit all year now, it's bound to kick-in some times... Yes, he is young, but nonetheless, he's putting himself in a vulnerable state of getting burned out...

Plus, isn't there talks about being a complete player? If so, get your acts together, perfect your skills and stop the complaining...

Deboogle!.
10-25-2005, 01:18 AM
Has anyone actually played on that court before they make any comments? All these are based on theoretical knowledge, isn't it?not that i've been able to gather... that was my question too.

Plus, isn't there talks about being a complete player? If so, get your acts together, perfect your skills and stop the complaining...he won two fast-court masters events this year, one indoors! I don't understand the problem.

Galaxystorm
10-25-2005, 01:19 AM
CARPETTTTTTT

Link : http://www.atptennis.com/en/common/TrackIt.asp?file=/en/media/reports/gerflor.pdf

By the way, i opened a thread about TMC surface two months ago and it seems you have bad memory

nobama
10-25-2005, 01:20 AM
The court surface in Shanghai is Taraflex.

http://www.recmanagement.com/rmnews/16-ATPTaraflexpartner.pdf

http://www.gerflortaraflex.com/about/about.htm

http://www.gerflortaraflex.com/flooring/taraflextennis.htm

ys
10-25-2005, 01:21 AM
he won two fast-court masters events this year, one indoors! I don't understand the problem.

The problem is that both "fastcourt" events that Jumping Jack won were played in absence of three best fastcourt players of the Tour. Federer, Safin, Hewitt.. So far he only proved he can win only a field-wise second tier stuff on fast courts..

nobama
10-25-2005, 01:22 AM
not that i've been able to gather... that was my question too.

he won two fast-court masters events this year, one indoors! I don't understand the problem.I guess now these events are considered slower hard courts?

Deboogle!.
10-25-2005, 01:22 AM
By the way, i opened a thread about TMC surface two months ago and it seems you have bad memoryNo need to insult anyone, not everyone reads every thread in GM. Anyway, thanks for the link.

I still fail to see, however, ESPECIALLY if this was announced months ago, why this is such a big deal if the TMC has not only been held on this surface before, but has been held on it way more than on any other surface... Why is it such a big deal?

Maybe Madrid's court is a little slower, but Montreal was playing very fast this year.

Lee
10-25-2005, 01:23 AM
CARPETTTTTTT

Link : http://www.atptennis.com/en/common/TrackIt.asp?file=/en/media/reports/gerflor.pdf

Thanks!

By the way, i opened a thread about TMC surface two months ago and it seems you have bad memory

Sorry for not checking every thread of MTF every day. :shrug:

nobama
10-25-2005, 01:27 AM
No need to insult anyone, not everyone reads every thread in GM. Anyway, thanks for the link.

I still fail to see, however, ESPECIALLY if this was announced months ago, why this is such a big deal if the TMC has not only been held on this surface before, but has been held on it way more than on any other surface... Why is it such a big deal?

Maybe Madrid's court is a little slower, but Montreal was playing very fast this year.I guess it's a big deal because it's the Nadal camp complaining. If Andy was complaining people here would probably be calling him a whiner.

Galaxystorm
10-25-2005, 01:29 AM
Me too, Lee :confused:

Galaxystorm, it's played right at the conclusion of the indoor season, so I really think it'd be ridiculous to make the players acclamatize to clay again. I think that is the reasoning,

:lol: :lol:

Players like Nadal, Coria, and i also would say Federer don't need too many days of practises to acclamatize again on clay, but if we are talking about Roddicck the thing is quite different ;)

So as the ATP season ends on carpet is an outrage that the TMC was played on clay ?? :speakles: ( This is one of the poors arguments that i have listened, because a pro player is used to change surfaces , Federer and Murray changed clay by hard and were able to reach Bangkok final , and as far as i know they are still alive and they haven't suffered a mental disorder ...

Galaxystorm
10-25-2005, 01:30 AM
Thanks!



Sorry for not checking every thread of MTF every day. :shrug:

Don't worry ;)

Deboogle!.
10-25-2005, 01:30 AM
Look, as many people have said, it is merely common sense that the fall indoor season culminates in a larger, very important event that is also indoors. You need not agree with it, but how can you not admit it's logical?

Lee
10-25-2005, 01:34 AM
:lol: :lol:

Players like Nadal, Coria, and i also would say Federer doesn't need too many days of practises to acclamatize again on clay, but if we are talking about Roddicck the thing is quite different ;)

So as the ATP season ends on carpet is an outrage that the TMC was played on clay ?? :speakles: ( This is one of the poors arguments that i have listened, because a pro player is used to change surfaces , Federer and Murray changed clay by hard and were able to reach Bangkok final , and as far as i know they are still alive and they haven't suffered a mental disorder ...

I don't think it's a poor argument. How many times people saying there's not enough grass tournaments before Wimbledon for players to adapt to grass? Practise on one surface is very different from actually playing matches.

Galaxystorm
10-25-2005, 01:37 AM
No need to insult anyone, not everyone reads every thread in GM. Anyway, thanks for the link.

Have i insulted anybody ??? To say you have bad memory ironically is an insult ?? :shrug:

This fact reminds me the Blake thread when i was almost lynched for to express an opinion :shrug:

renee_chin
10-25-2005, 01:37 AM
The problem is that both "fastcourt" events that Jumping Jack won were played in absence of three best fastcourt players of the Tour. Federer, Safin, Hewitt.. So far he only proved he can win only a field-wise second tier stuff on fast courts..

Andre Agassi? A 2nd-tier player, field-wise?! :eek:
By your judgement, this means all these complains is because Federer, Safin and Hewitt will be playing at the TMC? That's pretty nifty, isn't it, that he can beat the rest - and MAY only come up short against these 3 players. At present status, all of those 3 players may not even be at their best, at Shanghai, given their injury problems. (Has Safin confirmed to play?!) Plus, mind you, he may not even have to play all 3 of them! So, why the complain now, before the ball is even hit?! I think he should take this as a good opportunity to measure himself against the best. He's young - what's the rush, anyways?!

Nadal can play - there's no doubt about that. Some of the losses, I think, eventually comes down to mental block. Yes, he fights like his life depends on it, on-court, but IMHO, I think there are times he can't over-come the thought of that he can't do it. Do you really think he couldn't have beaten James Blake at this year's USO? I thought that come down to some mental block, somehow...


And, I must add - it's pretty amazing how everything somehow get drawn to the 'fact' that tourney organizers wanna 'help out' the American players. :confused:

PaulieM
10-25-2005, 01:40 AM
Look, as many people have said, it is merely common sense that the fall indoor season culminates in a larger, very important event that is also indoors. You need not agree with it, but how can you not admit it's logical?
i don't see a problem with it either. i don't see what the big deal is about the surface, tmc has been played on similar surfaces many times before, and i haven't heard any of the other players complain about it. didn't nadal just win a big title on a fast indoor court? what's the problem with playing on something similar in shanghai?

PaulieM
10-25-2005, 01:41 AM
Have i insulted anybody ??? To say you have bad memory ironically is an insult ?? :shrug:

This fact reminds me the Blake thread when i was almost lynched for to express an opinion :shrug:
lynched is a bit of a stretch. but i think the reaction you got in there was because every arguement you tried to make in that thread was complete :bs: :shrug:

Clara Bow
10-25-2005, 01:41 AM
I guess it's a big deal because it's the Nadal camp complaining. If Andy was complaining people here would probably be calling him a whiner.

Well, it sounds like a good number of people on this thread are insinuating that Uncle Toni is whining. I'm sure that some people would say that someone who complained about the surface of the Master's Cup is a whiner, regardless of the player or their arguements.

I think one reason why some players may complain about the surface is that the final eight finalists are those who have the highest points tally for the year - not just who are the best indoor players. And I think that since the tournament consists of those who have done best throughout the whole year (and throughout a variety of surfaces) it may be best to have the year end championsips on either 1) a rotation of surfaces or 2) a moderate surface as galaxystorm suggested.

These eight players deserve to be there for the year that they had- and therefore, I do think it would be fair to not always have it be indoors- since that really benefts only one type of player and the entire year does not just consist of ultra-fast surfaces.

Galaxystorm
10-25-2005, 01:43 AM
Look, as many people have said, it is merely common sense that the fall indoor season culminates in a larger, very important event that is also indoors. You need not agree with it, but how can you not admit it's logical?

How strange !!! :rolleyes: , the mainly part of those persons come from Anglo-saxon countries where their players hate the clay :o

I see your capacity of objectivy is poor, and it seems that during the next 31 years the TMC shouldn't be played not even a year on clay , and this will be a fair fact.

I like this ¿¿ democracy ?? :yeah: :rolleyes:


Good night.

renee_chin
10-25-2005, 01:44 AM
Well, it sounds like a good number of people on this thread are insinuating that Uncle Toni is whining. I'm sure that some people would say that someone who complained about the surface of the Master's Cup is a whiner, regardless of the player or their arguements.

That's basically what a whiner is, isn't it? Someone who complains... ;)

savesthedizzle
10-25-2005, 01:44 AM
How strange !!! :rolleyes: , the mainly part of those persons come from Anglo-saxon countries when their players hate the clay :o

I see your capacity of objectivy is poor, and it seems that during the next 31 years the TMC shouldn't be played not even a year on clay , and this will be a fair fact.

I like this ¿¿ democracy ?? :yeah: :rolleyes:


Good night.

It seems your objectivity is quite poor as well. So would you like to be the pot or the kettle?

Lee
10-25-2005, 01:46 AM
It seems your objectivity is quite poor as well. So would you like to be the pot or the kettle?

:rolls:

Clara Bow
10-25-2005, 01:50 AM
That's basically what a whiner is, isn't it? Someone who complains...

But- someone who complains is not always a whiner. ;)

Galaxystorm
10-25-2005, 01:51 AM
It seems your objectivity is quite poor as well. So would you like to be the pot or the kettle?

The objectiviy is so simple , 31 years without a TMC on clay, if this is a fair fact i think tennis is a mockery.

I see you haven't read my first post of this thread, then i will post you again.

The difference is so simple , i think all the surfaces are decent, but it seems another persons consider clay as a third-world surface and doesn't deserve a TMC :rolleyes:

My first post :

" I think there are only two fair options regarding the Masters cup surface:

1) Every year the Masters cup played on a different suraface, that is carpet, grass, outdoors hard , clay , a rotation

2) Search an intermediate surface, and this surface is outdoors hardcourt without no doubt . On hardcourt the serve-volley players can play his playstyle and the baseliners too, both playstyles are perfectly compatible and effective, a tournament on hard can be won from the baseline or playing near to the net.

And among hardcourts surface, i would say the best would be Greenset, because Decoturf ( for example US open ) is fast and Rebound ace is slow, Greenset is the intermediate, then Houston surface ( Greenset ) was the fair and perfect surface for a Masters cup. "

El Legenda
10-25-2005, 01:56 AM
his bitching will not change it, you think they care about him and what he wants

Clara Bow
10-25-2005, 02:07 AM
Look, as many people have said, it is merely common sense that the fall indoor season culminates in a larger, very important event that is also indoors. You need not agree with it, but how can you not admit it's logical?

But I think the circumstances of how one makes it into the Masters Cup tournament make it different than the regular end of a surface season.* The entries for the tournament are based purely on their performace during the year. Some players may accumulate more points during different parts of the year. Since the appearance at the tournament is a reward for the year's performance- I don't think that it should be played on one extreme suface every year. I think it would be awful if it were always played on really fast hard court because that basically rewards one type of player. And it also in complete contrast with that the idea of the eight slots are filled by the best performers throughout the whole year.

In my opinion it's fine if they play on real fast one or two years, as long as they then would have it on a slow surface for one or two years (i.e. clay). Because I don't think it is fair to always play on one type of extreme surface and only reward one type of player if the whole basis for entry is based on performance throughout the whole year. These players make it for performances on a variety of surfaces- and I think that the idea of the tournament just for the eight best performers during the year should only be slanted towards one extreme surface makes the idea of rewarding for the whole year rather hollow.

Personally, I liked last year's surface. When I saw it live it seemed to play- well- medium- which just seemed very fair.

* In fact- I don't view the Master's Cup as the end of any season- rather - as the end of the year.

fenomeno2111
10-25-2005, 02:23 AM
I have to agree with Toni on this one, not only b/c Im a Rafa fan. But for the sprot is better to have an intermediate surface, that way each style will have pros and cons weighted and there won't be an advantage to any player...But anyway i dont think they will change it

soraya
10-25-2005, 02:33 AM
Well then according to uncle Tony, Nadalito should have a court perfect for his game?

Scotso
10-25-2005, 02:46 AM
I don't really mind it, but I suppose he has a point.... Ferrero did well there, though :shrug:

Scotso
10-25-2005, 02:46 AM
In conclusion... talent should translate to any surface :p

Clara Bow
10-25-2005, 02:52 AM
Well then according to uncle Tony, Nadalito should have a court perfect for his game?

No - that's not what he said. He just is not liking the extreme-fast nature of Shanghai- one that is even faster than the US Open.

khyber
10-25-2005, 02:53 AM
Okay, I admit up front that I have not read the whole thread, but didn't Guga win the YEC on an indoor court?

Polikarpov
10-25-2005, 03:03 AM
well, isn't this a good opportunity for Nadal to prove that he can also play and win on faster surfaces? :)

nkhera1
10-25-2005, 03:04 AM
Lol some of the stuff i hear. Now the Chinese want to help American players as well, I didn't know Roddicks reign of bribery extended that far, he must have some great connections. Also the part about Roddick complaining about a Masters Series held on Clay, the sad thing is, is that you don't hear him complain too much. Only time I remember was when he complained about not having ample time to practice but other than that he usually never complains.

Also are you guys forgetting the fact that there is a clay court tournament for nearly many months from before the first TMS to after Wimbledon. How many grass court tournaments are there again? Only 2, and I don't see anybody complaining about the long claycourt season.

Also a champion needs to be multidimensional and I think this was a bad move by Nadal's family to come out and pretty much admit that Nadal has no chance. He's already out before it even started.

However, even I agree that the Tennis Masters Finals should be on a medium surface such as Ace Rebound where all players can excel for the most part, but that still isn't an excuse to start complaining before the tournament has even been conducted.

ys
10-25-2005, 03:29 AM
Andre Agassi? A 2nd-tier player, field-wise?! :eek:


Jeebus... The man is 35.. When was the last time he beat Federer? Safin? 3 years ago?

Nadal can play - there's no doubt about that. Some of the losses, I think, eventually comes down to mental block. Yes, he fights like his life depends on it, on-court, but IMHO, I think there are times he can't over-come the thought of that he can't do it. Do you really think he couldn't have beaten James Blake at this year's USO? I thought that come down to some mental block, somehow...

No. Nothing to do with mental block. has to do with the fact that it was real men's game.. Best-of-five on player's surface, shotmaker's surface, not runner's surface.. Place where the pace of the game is such that you can not win by simply retrieving for four hours - you have to have guts to make shots, to go for lower-percentage play. That's where he fails.

alfonsojose
10-25-2005, 03:32 AM
Tony Nadal wants indoor clay :smash: :rolleyes:

niko
10-25-2005, 03:33 AM
Russian story comes to my mind. Dance instructor asked a male dancer why his performance was so poor his respond was: My balls are too big. ;)

nkhera1
10-25-2005, 03:33 AM
Jeebus... The man is 35.. When was the last time he beat Federer? Safin? 3 years ago?



When was the last time anyone beat Fed on hard court?

ys
10-25-2005, 03:42 AM
When was the last time anyone beat Fed on hard court?

Safin.. In January..

renee_chin
10-25-2005, 03:47 AM
At the end of the day, there can't be a situation that pleases everybody. People just have to learn and accept it... That's how I see it anyways... :shrug:

BlackSilver
10-25-2005, 04:07 AM
Well, Shanghai will be a nightmare to Nadal this year..........and to Coria.
And Davydenko is probably very unhappy about this. And Roddick, Agassi, Hewitt and Federer are probably not very satisfied with the surface's choice.

Said that, I think it's good to have another big tournament into a very fast surface in regular intervals

tennischick
10-25-2005, 04:13 AM
Well, Shanghai will be a nightmare to Nadal this year..........and to Coria.
And Davydenko is probably very unhappy about this. And Roddick, Agassi, Hewitt and Federer are probably not very satisfied with the surface's choice.

Said that, I think it's good to have another big tournament into a very fast surface in regular intervals
why Davydenko? :shrug: personally i think he can handle the fast stuff.

and it's Duckboy's best chance to redeem a lackluster year (just as i predicted, ha!) :p

i think that Uncle Tony is just playing the media game. keeping his boy's name out there. and making excuses in advance for possible losses. i'm feeling it ;)

adelaide
10-25-2005, 04:15 AM
In conclusion... talent should translate to any surface :p
:yeah:

BlackSilver
10-25-2005, 04:26 AM
why Davydenko? personally i think he can handle the fast stuff.

Well, handle is one thing. Trouble the top players in a surface that you doesn't fell confortable in is another, very different thing.

and it's Duckboy's best chance to redeem a lackluster year (just as i predicted, ha!)

He also has Paris. Smaller event, but there he has more chances

i think that Uncle Tony is just playing the media game. keeping his boy's name out there. and making excuses in advance for possible losses. i'm feeling it

Of course

Haute
10-25-2005, 04:33 AM
I don't see what the big deal is; if you're going to be a top player, shouldn't you be able to beat the other top players on your least comfortable surface?

Baseline
10-25-2005, 04:44 AM
Man, who do tennis players think they are. They're not even qualified as athletes

On top of that, you've got Roger and his refusal to play with electronic line-calling... sheezus. Someone needs to snap that 90 pound swedish boy in half.


Tennis players not athletes?

Roger Swedish?

Huh? Am I missing something?

Castafiore
10-25-2005, 08:01 AM
If that surface would be clay year after year, you would see a whole lot more whining on this board.

Toni is not saying that it should be a slow surface to suit his nephew the most but it should be an intermediate surface. Why is that "whining"? I think it's a fair observation.

This is a thread started with the straight-forward opinion of one coach (and we have only a dodgy translation in English and not even the entire context of this opinion within a possibly larger interview) and yet people in here keep on whining about that opinion and to top it all, some of you accuse Toni Nadal of whining? :rolleyes:

Deivid23
10-25-2005, 10:09 AM
Toni, shut up and make the kid play.

Taraflex + roof = nightmare for Nadal, but only chance to improve that is playing at those conditions.

jtipson
10-25-2005, 10:11 AM
I don't really mind it, but I suppose he has a point.... Ferrero did well there, though :shrug:

It wasn't on carpet though.

Exodus
10-25-2005, 10:42 AM
This is so stupid of him to say why don't we change to clay LOL

we also should change the surface at RG to fast hardcourt so Roddick and other fast serving players can win it

Galaxystorm
10-25-2005, 10:49 AM
This is so stupid of him to say why don't we change to clay LOL

What are you talking about ??

Where Toni Nadal says that the TMC should be played on clay ??

He only says that the TMC should be played on a neutral surface, not too fast, not too slow

Deivid23
10-25-2005, 10:52 AM
What are you talking about ??

Where Toni Nadal says that the TMC should be played on clay ??

He only says that the TMC should be played on a neutral surface, not too fast, not too slow

TMC´s surface was settled more than a year ago, so it´s a stupid thing to come now moaning as well as defending Toni´s position :o . Would he complain if Nadal served up 220 km/h?

Galaxystorm
10-25-2005, 11:11 AM
TMC´s surface was settled more than a year ago.

The surface was settled on June of 2005

so it´s a stupid thing to come now moaning as well as defending Toni´s position :o . Would he complain if Nadal served up 220 km/h,?

The question is why in 31 years of TMC competition clay has been the only court never chosen ??

Claycourters are lepers ?? , if ATP doesn't value clay surface why ATP lets as many tournaments on clay during the season ?? If clay is the second main surface on ATP tour why carpet has preference over clay to be the surface on a TMC ? .

As far as i understand a TMC is an end season championship and it should be placed on a neutral surface for the 8 players, not a surface where some players are favored are anothers harmed . And this surface is hardcourts, when serve-volley players can play their playstyle and baseliners too.

Or another fair option would be to make a rotation, every year on a different surface ( grass, clay, carpet , hard ) and thus no kind of player would be favored.

Toni just asks for a neutral surface , he isn't asking for clay :shrug:

You say : " Would he complain if Nadal served up 220 km/h ? "
Big servers have more rights that players without great serves ??

If TMC were playing the next years on clay don't you thing big servers would be complaining about this fact ??

It's a only a matter of justice , ATP shouldn't favor no kind of player

Deivid23
10-25-2005, 11:24 AM
The surface was settled on June of 2005

My bad, sorry.



The question is why in 31 years of TMC competition clay has been the only court never chosen ??

Claycourters are lepers ?? , if ATP doesn't value clay surface why ATP lets as many tournaments on clay during the season ?? If clay is the second main surface on ATP tour why carpet has preference over clay to be the surface on a TMC ? .

As far as i understand a TMC is an end season championship and it should be placed on a neutral surface for the 8 players, not a surface where some players are favored are anothers harmed . And this surface is hardcourts, when serve-volley players can play their playstyle and baseliners too.

Or another fair option would be to make a rotation, every year on a different surface ( grass, clay, carpet , hard ) and thus no kind of player would be favored.

Toni just asks for a neutral surface , he isn't asking for clay :shrug:

You say : " Would he complain if Nadal served up 220 km/h ? "
Big servers have more rights that players without great serves ??

If TMC were playing the next years on clay don't you thing big servers would be complaining about this fact ??

It's a only a matter of justice , ATP shouldn't favor no kind of player

About rotation in surface, yes it would be an acceptable idea, but it looks like we´re far from that. You can´t make all 8 players happy and you have to settle TMC´s surface soon enough. Imagine 6 out of the eight players who qualify for the TMC play better on clay, rebound ace wouldn´t be neutral and justice wouldn´t be done by that point of view. Taraflex is an accepted kind of carpet by ATP so no reason to argue, just come out and play.

Galaxystorm
10-25-2005, 11:37 AM
About rotation in surface, yes it would be an acceptable idea, but it looks like we´re far from that. You can´t make all 8 players happy and you have to settle TMC´s surface soon enough. Imagine 6 out of the eight players who qualify for the TMC play better on clay, rebound ace wouldn´t be neutral and justice wouldn´t be done by that point of view. Taraflex is an accepted kind of carpet by ATP so no reason to argue, just come out and play.

If the TMC surface were rotatory when ATP made the schedule for the next season would announce : " Next year TMC will be ( on grass for example ) " , if when TMC arrived there are 2 good grass courters and 6 claycourters , this is random, this is just a matter of luck, but surely another year, the TMC would be played on clay and maybe 6 of the 8 players are fast-courters and there are only 2 claycourters, then these two persons were favored, but it would be a matter of luck ,sometimes you would have a good luck and sometimes bad. That's the sport :shrug:

It's like when UEFA chooses the stadium for the next Champions league final with a year beforehand, if when this final arrives and one of the two teams is playing at its country, it's a matter of luck, it's random :shrug:

I'm against of a permanent surface for a TMC excepting in the case of hard courts, which are neutral for all the players.

Castafiore
10-25-2005, 12:03 PM
This is so stupid of him to say why don't we change to clay LOL
Would you just read what he says instead of jumping to conclusions and using words like 'stupid'?

He did not say that they should change it to clay but he's in favor of an intermediate surface as a compromise to all the players.

Nimi
10-25-2005, 03:25 PM
There are five majors per season - one is really slow, one other is slow, but not to the extreme, one it avarage, and just one is fast. What's wrong about having the fifth one fast as well?

Galaxystorm
10-25-2005, 03:29 PM
There are five majors per season - one is really slow, one other is slow, but not to the extreme, one it avarage, and just one is fast. What's wrong about having the fifth one fast as well?

Carpet also deserves a Grand Slam, but a TMC isn't a Grand slam since there are only 8 players instead of 128.. That's the key.

If ATP wanna turn the current TMC into a carpet Grand slam, i think it's a good idea , but with 128 players, not only 8 . ;)

MDot
12-06-2014, 11:59 AM
But I think the circumstances of how one makes it into the Masters Cup tournament make it different than the regular end of a surface season.* The entries for the tournament are based purely on their performace during the year. Some players may accumulate more points during different parts of the year. Since the appearance at the tournament is a reward for the year's performance- I don't think that it should be played on one extreme suface every year. I think it would be awful if it were always played on really fast hard court because that basically rewards one type of player. And it also in complete contrast with that the idea of the eight slots are filled by the best performers throughout the whole year.

* In fact- I don't view the Master's Cup as the end of any season- rather - as the end of the year.

The entries for every tournament are based purely on their performance during the year.

I think this thread deserve a bump:devil:

oranges
12-06-2014, 12:30 PM
The entries for every tournament are based purely on their performance during the year.

I think this thread deserve a bump:devil:

Why? We need more 'Toni said' stuff? You're eager to bait more Nadal bashing? Not enough of it on MTF for your taste? You just enjoy pain? Something completely different? The lurch?

PS Bonus rep whoever recognizes the last reference