Let's talk a bit about Juan Carlos. [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Let's talk a bit about Juan Carlos.

Nimi
10-16-2005, 02:59 PM
He played pretty much toe-to-toe with Ivan for the duration of the second half of the match, but despite that, there is a feeling that the sting has vanquished from the mosquito.

This reminds me of Roddick 2005 version - healthy, but can't come up with the goods. Ferrero couldn't get a single ball past Ivan when the latter came forward!

Once upon a time, every time a ball found its way to Ferrero's forehand, I would already expect a great shot - this is just not there anymore, and it's the same case with Roddick.

Why? What is the reason for this? What can he possibly do in order to get his sting back? I still think that the Juan Carlos who played today can be a solid top 15 player, but he will not be satisfied with this. He needs the might of his forehand back - or else he will find it very difficult to battle with the Ljubicic kind of players out of the clay courts - and even on them as well.

El Legenda
10-16-2005, 03:01 PM
Top 10 in 2006 :yeah:

Sjengster
10-16-2005, 03:07 PM
I've been wanting to have a discussion like this for a while. Maybe it's the bandage he's sporting around his head these days, but to me it's remarkable how frail and slight Ferrero looks nowadays compared to his 2003 best - his clothes seem to hang off him at times, and he just isn't an imposing figure. He's obviously lost some confidence in his ability to pull the trigger on the forehand side at crucial moments, and the old weaknesses he had in his game still remain; sometimes on passing shots he tries to hammer the ball and lifts it too much, instead of dipping it without pace to the volleyer's feet as the best passers like Nadal and Coria do.

Likewise, he is still reluctant to move into the forecourt to finish points off and lacks authority there. There were plenty of times today where Ljubicic scraped back high floating balls from way off the court, the most obvious example being the marathon rally on breakpoint at 4-4 in the third, that would have been comfortable putaways had Ferrero closed in on the net and volleyed them. As fantastic a groundstroker as he is, this reluctance to come out of his comfort zone could really be his undoing. And he's never been the best returner of big serves on fast courts, today that was also demonstrated even though Ljubicic didn't have his best serving day.

Jimnik
10-16-2005, 03:18 PM
I just think his forhand is the big difference. In 2003, it was the best in the business and now it lacks the consistency, the power and the accuracy to be an effective weapon. I don't expect him to still have the best forehand, I know players like Roger have come along with amazing shots, but it could still be one of the best if he had retained it after his 2004 injuries. There's no doubt that his forehand made him the player he was when he topped the world rankings.

Otherwise, his serve, his backhand and his movement all seem to be just as good as in 2003. Maybe he's lacking a bit of confidence which leads to forehand errors.

Jimnik
10-16-2005, 03:19 PM
Top 10 in 2006 :yeah:
Maybe him and Ivan in the top 10 :yeah:

Sjengster
10-16-2005, 03:22 PM
Vajmos.

ClaycourtaZzZz.
10-16-2005, 03:22 PM
Maybe Ivan will be #1 one day:)

Action Jackson
10-16-2005, 03:22 PM
The game has moved on since when Ferrero was at his best before. Players hit just as hard as he does, some even move better, plus he hasn't added that much to his game since his glory days.

Raquel
10-16-2005, 03:28 PM
Frew McMillan said during the commentary that there is still room for improvement in JC's game, and I think that is true. I don't think today was his best ever performance or even best of the week, so I wouldn't say this one match is a barometer of his overall game at the moment. The fact he even made the final here is another step in the right direction.

Andieke
10-16-2005, 03:39 PM
I think that his injuries and illness of last year took a lot more out of him then we expected.
If I think back how I struggled to get back after a injury, I can only imagine what he's going through.
The hardest thing is the confidence. Everybody seems to believe in you, but you can't seem to believe in yourself. And there is always the worry that the injury might come back ( in my case it did)

Let's hope that he can take all the positive things of this week to next year and into the preparation of next year. If he doesn't get into shanghai this year, he should try to use that energy to get his revenge next year.




ps: for those who wanna know: I had a serious nerve and muscle problem that forced me to stop swimming.

Jimnik
10-16-2005, 03:46 PM
Frew McMillan said during the commentary that there is still room for improvement in JC's game, and I think that is true. I don't think today was his best ever performance or even best of the week, so I wouldn't say this one match is a barometer of his overall game at the moment. The fact he even made the final here is another step in the right direction.
I hope you're right.
He did, at least, seem to be going in the right direction because he played much better in the 3rd set than in the 1st. His forehand was just starting to work when the match ended and he was really starting to make Ivan work hard.
This could be a good experience, the sort of match that could set him up well for Madrid.

Jimnik
10-16-2005, 03:48 PM
I think that his injuries and illness of last year took a lot more out of him then we expected.
If I think back how I struggled to get back after a injury, I can only imagine what he's going through.
The hardest thing is the confidence. Everybody seems to believe in you, but you can't seem to believe in yourself. And there is always the worry that the injury might come back ( in my case it did)

:scared: I don't even want to think about that. If his injury comes back: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

But yes it is possible :scared:

cecilija
10-16-2005, 03:51 PM
finally somebody said it!
The game has moved on since when Ferrero was at his best before. Players hit just as hard as he does, some even move better, plus he hasn't added that much to his game since his glory days.

Andieke
10-16-2005, 03:52 PM
:scared: I don't even want to think about that. If his injury comes back: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

But yes it is possible :scared:

well surely hope it doesn't, but that something that keeps coming back in your mind. You never know
But one bright side: you can only have chickenpox once in your life :)

wcr
10-16-2005, 04:01 PM
Time for Juan Carlos to act like a champion again. Find a new town, find new coach, find a new routine, find new things to practice, find a way to win again. Great champions do this. They do not rest on their laurels and whine about over scheduling. Get on with it JCF. It's going to be over before you know it.

Frederick16
10-16-2005, 04:05 PM
ferrero is one of the most talented and steady players he will be top 10 again and top 5 i think :)

Jimnik
10-16-2005, 04:07 PM
finally somebody said it!
I knew somebody would say it.
I've already been arguing against it before it was said.
JC is clearly, especially with his FH, not the player he was in 2003. Increased competition is a reason for him to be no longer world no.1 but it's not a reason for him to be ranked 20.

Action Jackson
10-16-2005, 04:15 PM
I knew somebody would say it.
I've already been arguing against it before it was said.
JC is clearly, especially with his FH, not the player he was in 2003. Increased competition is a reason for him to be no longer world no.1 but it's not a reason for him to be ranked 20.

What are you arguing? Considering from where he started the year to where he is now, it's not a failed season, in spite of what I have said.

Nimi
10-16-2005, 04:20 PM
Watching him playing in the clay court season... He was just so passion-less, it was so dry to even watch him play. His entire game right now seems like a painful re-run of his RG final in 2002 over and over again.

Jimnik
10-16-2005, 04:21 PM
What are you arguing? Considering from where he started the year to where he is now, it's not a failed season, in spite of what I have said.
Personally, if he doesn't finish the year in the top 10, I think it has been a failure. Especially since he hasn't won any tournaments. If he was playing as well as in 2003, I think he would be 5 or 6 right now.

Merton
10-16-2005, 04:33 PM
JCF had a solid year, most likely he will end up between 10-20. It is not a great year, but it is a step in the right direction. I agree that the big thing is his confidence, it seems that he does not take risks on his forehand like he did when he was at his best.

Action Jackson
10-16-2005, 05:04 PM
Personally, if he doesn't finish the year in the top 10, I think it has been a failure. Especially since he hasn't won any tournaments. If he was playing as well as in 2003, I think he would be 5 or 6 right now.

Started at 80 and is going to finish easily within the top 20, that's a big improvement. Nadal didn't even improve that much, unrealistic expectations you have and 2006 is actually more important as the base has been set from this year.

Leo
10-16-2005, 05:14 PM
Who knew that chicken pox could end a career?

Seriously though, that was the basis of his poor health streak in 2004. Being out of the game that long was fatal and he may never fully recover. If he didn't get the chicken pox, I feel like he'd still be in the Top 10 now with much more confidence and ability to challenge for titles. :sad:

Having said that, I'm still hopeful. He's made progress in the latter half of '05 which bodes well for 2006, a very important year in his comeback, as GWH said. I'd like to see him with a new coach - get someone, anyone, new to look at his game, but I've been saying that for years and he doesn't seem willing to ever leave Antonio.

Haute
10-16-2005, 06:03 PM
Personally, if he doesn't finish the year in the top 10, I think it has been a failure. Especially since he hasn't won any tournaments. If he was playing as well as in 2003, I think he would be 5 or 6 right now.

Think back to last year at this time, where he wasn't even able to win back-to-back matches after Wimbledon. This year he's been able to consistently reach Quarters of most tournaments, Semis of Beijing, and now the Final of Vienna. Since Wimbledon, he's finally been able to beat Coria this year, Nalbandian twice, and Stepanek.

He's definitely going in the right direction now, but it's still going to take some time before he finally goes from Finalist to Champion again. We have to be patient. ;)

I think Madrid this week should be a big indication as to how he's doing. He'll more than likely play Tuesday against Mirnyi; we'll see how quickly he's able to turn around from this week and how fresh he's feeling.

savesthedizzle
10-16-2005, 06:06 PM
Who knew that chicken pox could end a career?

Seriously though, that was the basis of his poor health streak in 2004. Being out of the game that long was fatal and he may never fully recover. If he didn't get the chicken pox, I feel like he'd still be in the Top 10 now with much more confidence and ability to challenge for titles. :sad:

Having said that, I'm still hopeful. He's made progress in the latter half of '05 which bodes well for 2006, a very important year in his comeback, as GWH said. I'd like to see him with a new coach - get someone, anyone, new to look at his game, but I've been saying that for years and he doesn't seem willing to ever leave Antonio.

The chicken pox could have ended his life, let alone his career. Considering chicken pox in adults can be fatal and he has said that it left him at 0% physically.

Keeping that in mind, he's had a very solid year, the beginning of the year was tough for him because when your ranking is low, you get awful draws. He worked his way up in the rankings very impressively and now that he no longer has to worry about things like asking for wildcards to Masters Series events (like he had to this year for Rome and Hamburg) I think he'll continue the improvement process next season. There's no reason he can't be a top 10 player again. Top 5 on the other hand, I'm not so sure about.

Haute
10-16-2005, 06:09 PM
Who knew that chicken pox could end a career?

Seriously though, that was the basis of his poor health streak in 2004. Being out of the game that long was fatal and he may never fully recover. If he didn't get the chicken pox, I feel like he'd still be in the Top 10 now with much more confidence and ability to challenge for titles. :sad:

Having said that, I'm still hopeful. He's made progress in the latter half of '05 which bodes well for 2006, a very important year in his comeback, as GWH said. I'd like to see him with a new coach - get someone, anyone, new to look at his game, but I've been saying that for years and he doesn't seem willing to ever leave Antonio.

The situation is a bit similiar, but this just reminded me of Venus last year. This time last year I was saying that 2005 was going to be the critical year for her, it would determine whether she was going to be a top player again. And look what happened with her ;) :D (although her situation is a bit different than JC's because she's been making changes to her game). JC's been showing ups and downs this year just like Venus was last year, so 2006 very well could be the comeback year for JC. :)

NicoFan
10-16-2005, 10:04 PM
The competition has changed, but I think he can come back - at least to top 10-15.

Illness, then coming back, then lack of confidence for awhile. It takes time to come back after being out awhile. Its a shame that it happened to him.

Plus that grinding style of clay courters unfortunately takes it toll on the smaller guys.

Question: Does JC still have the same coach that he's had since day one? I was watching a show with JC on The Tennis Channel, and JC was saying that he feels comfortable with his coach - has been with him so long, etc. If JC still does have him, I wonder if maybe he would benefit from a change in coaches. Sometimes just a different approach can put a guy in the right direction....because I would love to see JC back in the top 5.

NYCtennisfan
10-16-2005, 10:59 PM
It is extraordinarily hard to be a great player high up in the rankings, fall down the rankings and then make your way back again. How many times does it ever happen? Agassi comes to mind but there aren't many more examples. It's a cruel ATP tour out there and it will be very difficult for JCF to ever become a top 3 palyer again. He might make it back to the top 10 but more than that might be asking too much.

NYCtennisfan
10-16-2005, 11:03 PM
unrealistic expectations you have and 2006 is actually more important as the base has been set from this year.

Maybe unrealistic but I'm sure it was JCF's goal as well. I think he can make a push into the top 10 next year but he still has Federer, Hewitt, Safin, Roddick, Nadal, and maybe even Agassi in front of him. Then there is Nalbandian and the new young guns. It will be tough.

liptea
10-17-2005, 03:33 AM
The chicken pox could have ended his life, let alone his career. Considering chicken pox in adults can be fatal and he has said that it left him at 0% physically.

Keeping that in mind, he's had a very solid year, the beginning of the year was tough for him because when your ranking is low, you get awful draws. He worked his way up in the rankings very impressively and now that he no longer has to worry about things like asking for wildcards to Masters Series events (like he had to this year for Rome and Hamburg) I think he'll continue the improvement process next season. There's no reason he can't be a top 10 player again. Top 5 on the other hand, I'm not so sure about.

Carlos Moya should be inspired by him.

alfonsojose
10-17-2005, 04:05 AM
He looks burned out, like his face's skin. That's it :shrug:

Duncan
10-17-2005, 10:12 AM
Juan Carlos will be raring to go next year! :woohoo:

Puschkin
10-17-2005, 10:57 AM
Likewise, he is still reluctant to move into the forecourt to finish points off and lacks authority there. There were plenty of times today where Ljubicic scraped back high floating balls from way off the court, the most obvious example being the marathon rally on breakpoint at 4-4 in the third, that would have been comfortable putaways had Ferrero closed in on the net and volleyed them. As fantastic a groundstroker as he is, this reluctance to come out of his comfort zone could really be his undoing.

I share this analysis 100%. At more than one occasion, I was tempted to shout "FORWARD" loudly, maybe I should have done it ;) What is still amazing, is his footwork, though.

Billabong
10-17-2005, 11:11 AM
GO JC:yeah:!

gillian
10-17-2005, 02:01 PM
JCF is one of my favorite players, and I still hold out hope that he can return to the top 10 and win some more titles. Many of the posters in this thread have made valid points about why he's had such a tough time coming back from illness & injury. I think the single most important factor for him is the lack of confidence. But, as others have pointed out, he's had a solid '05 and there's no reason why he can't continue to improve next year. I'm hoping he does.

Nimi
10-17-2005, 04:20 PM
I think alot of you are forgeting something quite relevant: Ferrero, even at his better years, never won title week in week out.

We now tend to think that every top player has a similar record to Fed and Rafa's records, but we tend to forget that Ferrero always had just 5-6 big results per year, and was always a bit inconsistent.

Even at his flag-ship year, 2003, while he was AMAZING on clay, he was really ionconsistent on hard-courts, not even reaching a single quarter-final in a TMS event on this surface. In 2002, while he was a top 5 player, he was as inconsistent as you can get - losing so many opening rounds.

I think expecting him to go on a hot streak outside clay is really pushing it - seeing as this is a thing he did perhaps once in his entire career.

gillian
10-17-2005, 04:33 PM
Even at his flag-ship year, 2003, while he was AMAZING on clay, he was really ionconsistent on hard-courts, not even reaching a single quarter-final in a TMS event on this surface. In 2002, while he was a top 5 player, he was as inconsistent as you can get - losing so many opening rounds.

Still, he did make the USO final, beating Agassi & Hewitt along the way. And he followed up with a semi-final appearance at the AO a few months later. Admittedly, that's as consistent as he's ever been on non-clay surface, but, I wouldn't dismiss those results entirely.

joske
10-17-2005, 05:01 PM
c'mon Spanish hunk :bounce: show 'em hell in 2006 !!!

|-Safin_Coria-|
10-17-2005, 05:33 PM
all this positive talk makes me smile :D
I hope everyone is right and Ferrero will continue to improve in the 2006 season
Vamos Ferrero!! :worship: :yeah:

Haute
10-17-2005, 09:21 PM
I think alot of you are forgeting something quite relevant: Ferrero, even at his better years, never won title week in week out.

We now tend to think that every top player has a similar record to Fed and Rafa's records, but we tend to forget that Ferrero always had just 5-6 big results per year, and was always a bit inconsistent.

Even at his flag-ship year, 2003, while he was AMAZING on clay, he was really ionconsistent on hard-courts, not even reaching a single quarter-final in a TMS event on this surface. In 2002, while he was a top 5 player, he was as inconsistent as you can get - losing so many opening rounds.

I think expecting him to go on a hot streak outside clay is really pushing it - seeing as this is a thing he did perhaps once in his entire career.

That's true, but he was at least getting 2-4 titles most years. So no title since 2003 is very odd for him.

Jimnik
10-18-2005, 12:33 AM
I think alot of you are forgeting something quite relevant: Ferrero, even at his better years, never won title week in week out.

We now tend to think that every top player has a similar record to Fed and Rafa's records, but we tend to forget that Ferrero always had just 5-6 big results per year, and was always a bit inconsistent.

Even at his flag-ship year, 2003, while he was AMAZING on clay, he was really ionconsistent on hard-courts, not even reaching a single quarter-final in a TMS event on this surface. In 2002, while he was a top 5 player, he was as inconsistent as you can get - losing so many opening rounds.

I think expecting him to go on a hot streak outside clay is really pushing it - seeing as this is a thing he did perhaps once in his entire career.
Well at his peak, in 2003, he was doing very well on faster surfaces. He reached the final of the US Open, the final of Bangkok, he won AMS Madrid and he nearly pulled off two upsets in the Davis Cup final against Australia. The matches were played on grass yet he took both Hewitt and Philippoussis (Wimby champion and runner-up) to five sets. Then, at the start of 2004, he reached the AO semi-final and the final of Rotterdam. At this point, he was doing consistently well at every tournament.

Haute
10-18-2005, 01:43 AM
Don't forget that it took Roger to stop him at the AO. ;)

I was thinking about this during the day, about how people have been saying that he hasn't been changing his game. I think there actually is a difference in his game now, I cannot pin-point what exactly is it, but something has changed now. We all agree that he's had problems when facing big servers, but this year he's actually been having more success against them. Stepanek for one, I'm not sure if Nalbandian is a big server (I'm just not familiar enough with his game), pushed Roddick to 3 sets, Ivo Karlovic (on clay, but still :p), Tursunov, and probably a few others I'm not thinking of right now. Aside from Karlovic, these have been straight set wins on hard court, so it's not like he has an advantage over them by being on clay.