Doping Charges Dog Argentinean Tennis [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Doping Charges Dog Argentinean Tennis

RaVeR
10-10-2005, 02:00 PM
http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?article_class=14&no=252199&rel_no=1

Go ljubo :yeah:

alfonsojose
10-10-2005, 02:27 PM
:rolleyes:

Neely
10-10-2005, 02:36 PM
What a joke that is if he blames this defeat for his own failure to reach top 10. Who lost so pathetically to so many players other than Puerta since April? Yes it was you, Ivan!! Every player who defeated Ljubicic was doped, right? :p

:silly:

RaVeR
10-10-2005, 02:56 PM
What a joke that is if he blames this defeat for his own failure to reach top 10. Who lost so pathetically to so many players other than Puerta since April? Yes it was you, Ivan!! Every player who defeated Ljubicic was doped, right? :p

:silly:

you not understand?
he means only on Puerta :rolleyes:

*Ljubica*
10-10-2005, 03:00 PM
Oh my goodness :rolleyes: I used to quite like Ljubo - but all this whining is irritating me. He couldn´t beat ME on clay - let alone Puerta - doped or not. Grow up and stop whining Ivan. :devil:

gooner88
10-10-2005, 03:03 PM
Oh my goodness :rolleyes: I used to quite like Ljubo - but all this whining is irritating me. He couldn´t beat ME on clay - let alone Puerta - doped or not. Grow up and stop whining Ivan. :devil:

:haha: :haha:
Even if Ljubo had beaten Puerta, he would've crashed out in the next round anyway.....

gravity
10-10-2005, 03:06 PM
Oh my goodness :rolleyes: I used to quite like Ljubo - but all this whining is irritating me. He couldn´t beat ME on clay - let alone Puerta - doped or not. Grow up and stop whining Ivan. :devil:

Regardless I'd feel pretty pissed off and cheated too if I lost to someone who later failed a drugs test - especially if the loss came at a grand slam.

Neely
10-10-2005, 03:11 PM
you not understand?
he means only on Puerta :rolleyes:
I understand, but it's still very very incomprehensive for me how Ljubicic comes to think that an allegedly illegally taken substance taken by his opponent is causing him to lose a first round match in straight sets where he was without a real shot to win throughout the match.

+alonso
10-10-2005, 03:11 PM
OMG :rolleyes:
poor argentinians.. :sad:

Rosa Luxembourg
10-10-2005, 03:18 PM
Did you see doubles match reults mentioned in this article? :haha: What kind of source of news is that?

Neely
10-10-2005, 03:26 PM
Did you see doubles match reults mentioned in this article? :haha: What kind of source of news is that?
Probably from a writer who doesn't know shit about tennis or at least looking up the correct results.

Deboogle!.
10-10-2005, 03:30 PM
I understand, but it's still very very incomprehensive for me how Ljubicic comes to think that an allegedly illegally taken substance taken by his opponent is causing him to lose a first round match in straight sets where he was without a real shot to win throughout the match.Yes, especially considering two things. 1: the alleged doping test was taken much later in the tournament and the allegedly positive substance is one that doesn't stay in the body too long, so even IF Puerta did something AFTER the 4th round, that does not mean he was doing anything BEFORE then. 2: NOTHING HAS BEEN OFFICIALLY ANNOUNCED as far as Puerta goes.

Seems awfully presumptuous of Ljubicic to be accusing and whining and bitching before an official announcement. It's different for fans and the media to do it, but it seems just as likely that Ljubicic himself could find himself in a mixed-up situation at one point and you'd think he'd want his fellow players to be fair and to say "hey, let's wait for the official announcement" before they went and spoke to the media and judged. If the tables were turned, I'd be willing to bet that's what he'd appreciate from his colleagues.

gravity
10-10-2005, 03:35 PM
Yes, especially considering two things. 1: the alleged doping test was taken much later in the tournament and the allegedly positive substance is one that doesn't stay in the body too long, so even IF Puerta did something AFTER the 4th round, that does not mean he was doing anything BEFORE then. 2: NOTHING HAS BEEN OFFICIALLY ANNOUNCED as far as Puerta goes.

Seems awfully presumptuous of Ljubicic to be accusing and whining and bitching before an official announcement. It's different for fans and the media to do it, but it seems just as likely that Ljubicic himself could find himself in a mixed-up situation at one point and you'd think he'd want his fellow players to be fair and to say "hey, let's wait for the official announcement" before they went and spoke to the media and judged. If the tables were turned, I'd be willing to bet that's what he'd appreciate from his colleagues.

"With a good result at Roland Garros I would have been in the PTA top 10. If Puerta's doping is positive, I'll think about suing the ITF. All tennis players feel ripped off. I was shocked by this news -- they've done it twice to me in Paris," said Ljubicic, who lost in the first round of Roland Garros to Puerta.

He does say IF and that's only the tiny snippet of a quote we have from him here. We don't know what else he said so you're basically judging him on the angle the writer wanted to put on this article.

El Legenda
10-10-2005, 03:41 PM
ohh by the way Bjorkman said something 2.

gravity
10-10-2005, 03:48 PM
"If five of their top players are caught, you start to wonder. Coria said they are hunting the Argentineans, but this is not true," said Bjorkman, who has to play against Argentina in the first leg of the Davis Cup.

El Legenda
10-10-2005, 03:48 PM
i wonder what the reaction would of been if somone like Federer said this, people here would of been saying, wow takes alot of courage to say that.

gravity
10-10-2005, 03:52 PM
Mine would have been: Wow he finally said something thought-provoking!

Action Jackson
10-10-2005, 03:53 PM
i wonder what the reaction would of been if somone like Federer said this, people here would of been saying, wow takes alot of courage to say that.

Nah, mine would JesusFed speaks to us the minions.

jtipson
10-10-2005, 03:55 PM
Regardless I'd feel pretty pissed off and cheated too if I lost to someone who later failed a drugs test - especially if the loss came at a grand slam.

The only person who might feel aggrieved, if it turns out that Puerta did fail a drugs test after the sf for no transparent reason, is Davydenko.

Deboogle!.
10-10-2005, 03:59 PM
"With a good result at Roland Garros I would have been in the PTA top 10. If Puerta's doping is positive, I'll think about suing the ITF. All tennis players feel ripped off. I was shocked by this news -- they've done it twice to me in Paris," said Ljubicic, who lost in the first round of Roland Garros to Puerta.

He does say IF and that's only the tiny snippet of a quote we have from him here. We don't know what else he said so you're basically judging him on the angle the writer wanted to put on this article.I'm not judging him, he has a long history of whining and bitching and being a sore loser. My point still stands that I believe the players should be supporting each other in this ridiculous process that contains media leaks, etc. etc. If it so should come out that it is DEFINITELY puerta, then anyone should say whatever they want, but it just seems only fair to each other that the players mostly just sort of shut up and say equivocal and diplomatic things until the announcement is made, because the situation could easily be reversed next time something like this happens. That's my opinion, you need not agree :)

gravity
10-10-2005, 04:00 PM
The only person who might feel aggrieved, if it turns out that Puerta did fail a drugs test after the sf for no transparent reason, is Davydenko.

Why? If it turns out to be true do we naturally assume he was clean for the rest of the tournament? Did he take and pass any drug tests earlier on?

gravity
10-10-2005, 04:01 PM
Nah, mine would JesusFed speaks to us the minions.

:lol:

gravity
10-10-2005, 04:08 PM
I'm not judging him, he has a long history of whining and bitching and being a sore loser. My point still stands that I believe the players should be supporting each other in this ridiculous process that contains media leaks, etc. etc. If it so should come out that it is DEFINITELY puerta, then anyone should say whatever they want, but it just seems only fair to each other that the players mostly just sort of shut up and say equivocal and diplomatic things until the announcement is made, because the situation could easily be reversed next time something like this happens. That's my opinion, you need not agree :)

Well of course you are right. :lol: But I can also see things from his perspective because I'm an outspoken ass sometimes and could easily see myself reacting in a similar way if I felt someone had gained an illegal advantage over me. And this isn't the first time Puerta has been caught up in a mess like this. So that's probably why more people are willing to pass short comment this time.

Besides I like the occasional controversial comment to liven up these forums. ;)

Peoples
10-10-2005, 04:22 PM
I think Ljubicic won't achieve anything with the lawsuit, of course.

But I do think that the loser of a match where one participant was under the influence of performance enhancing drugs, should be considered as winner of that match by default (but no further than just winner of this) and get some additional points/prize money. If it's proved that in that tournament that player was using performance enhancing drugs. Because it simply doesn't matter who would have won if one player hadn't cheated. The cheater should lose by default.

Baseline
10-10-2005, 05:08 PM
I'll let WADA say it for me:

"Samples collected from players during the period August 2002- May 2003 led to seven positive test results, revealing the presence of 19-norandrosterone in the samples of seven different players.
...

WADA has reviewed the processes and the steps taken in each of the seven cases. Eventually all seven cases resulted in exonerations...

Time has shown the theory to have been wrong.

The facts therefore do not support the subsequent legal reasoning behind the Tribunal decisions, and those players exonerated were essentially the beneficiaries of the speedy attention and conclusion by the ATP."

WADA REPORT ON ATP CASES
JULY 2004
www.atptennis.com/en/media/reports/WADA_review.pdf

More from the report:

"The second report states that by the first quarter of 2004, the number of elevated (but negative) samples reported with low levels of 19-norandrosterone and the unique analytical fingerprint reached levels similar to the pre May 2003 period.

“With two exceptions, the players interviewed categorically stated that they did not take the electrolyte product or any other product given to them by an ATP trainer prior to the tournament at which the elevated sample was produced.

Given the on-going assumption that the common analytical fingerprint associated with the 19-NA in the urine of men’s tennis players is coming
from a common source, then the obvious implication is that neither the electrolyte product nor the other supplements which the ATP stopped distributing in May 2003 are the cause of these positive and elevated tests”.

...there are now seven cases where exonerations were granted on what are now clearly unsustainable grounds and the exonerations may not be able to be re-visited."

"WADA is disappointed to see that in Cases 6 and 7 the ATP anti-doping tribunal persisted in the application of the estoppel principle despite the fact that the ATP itself indicated that it already had new evidence to the effect that at least two players who showed trace amounts of metabolites of nandrolone with the same unique analytical fingerprint had not consumed the electrolyte tablet."

_____________

Cases
Case 1 – Specimen 368541 –Out of Competition Test
B sample tested 8-9 January 2003
Exoneration Decision 30 June 2003

Case 2 – Sample 370459
B sample tested 13-14 January 2003
Defence Statement by player11 June 2003
Letter from ATP accepting the principle of estoppel 16 July 2003
Exoneration Decision 24 July 2003

Case 3 – Sample 370468
B sample tested, 15-16 January 2003
Defence Statement by Player, 9 May 2003
Letter from AT, accepting the principle of estoppel, 16 June 2003
No hearing
Exoneration Decision 7 July 2003

Case 4 – Bohdan Ulihrach - Sample 370630
B sample tested, 20 January 2003
Statement of Claim by player", 31 March 2003
Hearing, 22 April 2003
First Tribunal decision, 1 May 2003 (2-year sanction)
Second Tribunal decision, 7 July 2003 (exoneration)

Case 5 – Sample 370658
B sample tested, 20-21 January 2003
Statement of Claim by ATP, after 27 March 2003
Exoneration decision, 20 June 2003

Case 6 – Sample 372477
B sample tested (date unknown)
No hearing
Exoneration decision, 24 September 2003

Case 7 – Sample 166671
B sample tested (date unknown)
No hearing
Exoneration decision, 27 October 2003

I wonder about all the names you don't hear. Are those players all Argentine too? I seriously doubt it.

Galaxystorm
10-10-2005, 08:46 PM
Did you see doubles match reults mentioned in this article? :haha: What kind of source of news is that?

I didn't know that the new scoring format applied retroactively too :lol:

jazz_girl
10-10-2005, 10:08 PM
Federer's opinion:
http://www.lanacion.com.ar/deportiva/nota.asp?nota_id=746369

"No me hizo feliz escuchar que alguien se dopó en Roland Garros. No es oficial aún, no sabemos exactamente qué sucedió, hay que esperar y ver. Pero estoy desilusionado. Puede ser adrede o un error, pero hay que ser muy cuidadosos en estos días, porque se nos controla mucho, y los controles son muy efectivos. No entiendo cómo alguien puede hacer estas cosas".
"It didn't make me happy to listen that someone doped in Roland Garros. It's not official yet, so we don't know what happened exactly, we have to wait and see. But I'm disappointed. It could be on purpose or by mistake, but we should be very careful in these days, because we're controlled a lot, and controls are very effective. I can't understand how someone could do these things"

"No se puede acusar a todos los jugadores argentinos o atacar al país. Creo que son casos individuales, es un error atacar a Argentina, al país, decir que todos ellos son tramposos"
"We can't accuse all Argentine player or attack the country. I think they're individual cases, it's a mistake to attack Argentina, the country, saying that all of them are cheaters"

"Me gustaría que los jugadores se interesaran más por su deporte. Escucho que muchos se quejan, y yo digo que nos juntemos para ver qué podemos hacer. No entiendo por qué hay tantos que hablan tan negativamente del tenis, pocas veces fue tan interesante como ahora, aunque yo esté dominando. Creo que podemos hacer las cosas mejor de lo que lo estamos haciendo".
"I'd like the players could be more interested in their sport. I listen to many of them complaining, and I say to get together to see what we can do. I don't understand why there are so many who talk so negatively about tennis, fewer times it was so interesting as it is now, even though I'm dominating. I think we can do things better than we're doing it now"

star
10-10-2005, 11:14 PM
If players are supposed to stand together and support each other -- even the drug takers -- there won't be much chance of rooting out the drug takers. Players should get mad. They should take umbrage at losing to someone who later failed a drug test.

I think a fair sentence for anyone who fails a drug test is that they have to be tested four or five times more than any other player and they have to pay for the testing themselves.

star
10-10-2005, 11:15 PM
And with all the issues over whether top players are protected... I think WADA should take over all the testing in tennis. That gets both the ATP and the IFT out of it.

Deboogle!.
10-11-2005, 12:40 AM
Jazz_girl, could you (or anyone else who speaks both languages) possibly summarize that in English? I'd use an online translator but I don't trust their accuracy. Thanks a bunch in advance!

I absolutely agree that players should get mad when another player tests positive. What I don't think they should do is get mad and speak out when all that exists are media leaks from "sources" and whatnot. I think the players should get mad about the process - the fact that it takes months for them to find out, but to start attacking a fellow player when no official announcement has even been made.... that is what I have a problem with.

Hurley
10-11-2005, 01:35 AM
would of been

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

would of been

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

El Legenda
10-11-2005, 01:39 AM
how do you know that?

mandoura
10-11-2005, 01:59 AM
Jazz_girl, could you (or anyone else who speaks both languages) possibly summarize that in English? I'd use an online translator but I don't trust their accuracy. Thanks a bunch in advance!

I absolutely agree that players should get mad when another player tests positive. What I don't think they should do is get mad and speak out when all that exists are media leaks from "sources" and whatnot. I think the players should get mad about the process - the fact that it takes months for them to find out, but to start attacking a fellow player when no official announcement has even been made.... that is what I have a problem with.

Me too.

cobalt60
10-11-2005, 02:02 AM
Me too.
Me three. Funny I saw a program on the tennis channel where some agents give their clients lessons on dealing with the media. Guess it should be a mandatory class for all players ;)

Deboogle!.
10-11-2005, 02:03 AM
I'm an idiot, jazz_girl, I didn't even see that you translated it. Sorry about that.

Thank you! :hug:

I'm glad I'm not the ONLY one that thinks the players should keep from judging other players before official announcements. I thought I was. :)

sigmagirl91
10-11-2005, 02:39 AM
If players are supposed to stand together and support each other -- even the drug takers -- there won't be much chance of rooting out the drug takers. Players should get mad. They should take umbrage at losing to someone who later failed a drug test.

I think a fair sentence for anyone who fails a drug test is that they have to be tested four or five times more than any other player and they have to pay for the testing themselves.

Do you think, then, that Ljubicic should be mad? Bear in mind that all this is speculation. If Puerta's "positive" result were confirmed, then yes he does have the right to be mad, but what would that accomplish? A lawsuit, no matter how justified, is not going to solve anything. Like you said, WADA should take over the testing because the ITF and ATP obviously don't have all their ducks lined up in a row.

Merton
10-11-2005, 03:49 AM
If players are supposed to stand together and support each other -- even the drug takers -- there won't be much chance of rooting out the drug takers. Players should get mad. They should take umbrage at losing to someone who later failed a drug test.

I think a fair sentence for anyone who fails a drug test is that they have to be tested four or five times more than any other player and they have to pay for the testing themselves.

The question is not how to root out the drug takers, because if there are drug takers in equilibrium they will never be rooted out regardless of peer pressure or drug controls. By definition, optimal choice implies that players considered benefit from cheating with cost from getting caught and chose the latter.

The question is how to design a testing system that makes cheating suboptimal. In this case, the costs of getting caught would outweigh the benefits from cheating and rational players would not cheat in equilibrium.

Merton
10-11-2005, 03:51 AM
And with all the issues over whether top players are protected... I think WADA should take over all the testing in tennis. That gets both the ATP and the IFT out of it.

That is exactly correct, we need an agency running the drug controls that is independent of ATP. This will precisely work against equilibria where potential cheaters would think that the ATP would not punish them if the cost for the ATP itself is high.

star
10-11-2005, 03:54 AM
Do you think, then, that Ljubicic should be mad? Bear in mind that all this is speculation. If Puerta's "positive" result were confirmed, then yes he does have the right to be mad, but what would that accomplish? A lawsuit, no matter how justified, is not going to solve anything. Like you said, WADA should take over the testing because the ITF and ATP obviously don't have all their ducks lined up in a row.

Being angry and outraged does not equal filing a lawsuit. I never said a word about a lawsuit.

Merton
10-11-2005, 03:55 AM
To put it more simply, engineers do the work, economists take the credit and lawyers collect the fees :D (please, no offense intented for economists and lawyers)

mandoura
10-11-2005, 10:31 AM
To put it more simply, engineers do the work, economists take the credit and lawyers collect the fees :D (please, no offense intented for economists and lawyers)

OK :D

mandoura
10-11-2005, 10:32 AM
Being angry and outraged does not equal filing a lawsuit. I never said a word about a lawsuit.

You did not. Ljubicic did.

DhammaTiger
10-11-2005, 11:08 AM
Ljubicis is a s ore loser and I think shameless. Puerta has not even been charged with any doping offense.So, how dare hhe and other people judge him just on the basis of medi reports. Regarding Ljubicic, Puerta beat im in Umag in the year 2000 on clay, is he claiming that Mariano was doped than also? on what basisis he claiming that he could have been in the top ten if it weren't for his loss at RG to mariano? Just look at his performance in the other slams and in the Masters tournaments and you can judge for yourself. As for Mariano his run at RG wasn't a one-off, he was having a pretty good year on clay. He was a finalist at B.A tournament ( lost to Gaudio) and a winner in Casablanca.Before his injury in 2001 he was one of the rising star on clay. Go and check his profile before throwing brickbats on him Just one charge of positive doping doesn't make him habitual. Also, that suspension was rduced because he proved the medcine ws given to him for a severe attack of asthma.It makes me sick when people attack and condemn someone who hasn't even been charged.

sigmagirl91
10-11-2005, 11:43 AM
Being angry and outraged does not equal filing a lawsuit. I never said a word about a lawsuit.

Of course you didn't. Ljubicic did, and that's what makes the scenario even sadder.

star
10-11-2005, 02:04 PM
Well, he's upset and mad. We've learned that Ivan says rather extreme things when he's upset. Of course, it was just fine when he said extreme things about Andy Roddick after losing to him. Posters here applauded him. Now it seems some of the same ones are berating him because the shoe is on the other foot. :lol: :lol: He's a passionate guy who sometimes lets his ass overload his mouth. :)

I♥PsY@Mus!c
10-11-2005, 08:52 PM
He's a passionate guy who sometimes lets his ass overload his mouth. :)
He is just like me! :lol: We can't suck our feeling always! :shout:
But even though I'm his fan I doubt he can beat Puerta no matter if he is tested positive officially.Let alone "he would have been in the top 10". :smoke:

revolution
10-11-2005, 10:17 PM
Why do people, whenever the Argentine doping problem is brought up, use it to point the finger at Agassi?

He NEVER doped, period.

tangerine_dream
10-11-2005, 10:21 PM
If the Argentines don't like being singled out maybe they should start paying more attention to the anti-doping rules and what they can and cannot take. If it happens once, maybe it's a mistake. But where there's smoke there's fire.

Argentines fall foul of doping rules
By Luis Ampuero

BUENOS AIRES, Oct 11 (Reuters) - Laxity over anti-doping rules has landed a stream of Argentine tennis players in hot water.

A two-year ban imposed on Guillermo Canas in August and last week's case of Mariano Puerta, who faces the first lifetime suspension in tennis if found guilty of what would be a second offence, have cast a shadow over the successes of the "Argentine Armada".

"The only negligence I admit to is that of not having checked what I was taking," Canas told Reuters in a recent interview.

Canas tested positive for the diuretic hydrochlorothiazide (HCT) at the Acapulco tournament in Mexico in February. He has appealed to the Swiss-based Court for Arbitration in Sport (CAS).

He was world number 10 at the time of his suspension in August.

Canas's physical trainer Fernando Cao was quoted by L'Equipe as saying: "We are Latins. So we have a different personality from Europeans or Americans.

"We tend to take rules lightly. So we take less care than others. But that's not an excuse, quite the contrary. We have to be more responsible and not leave things to chance.

"In Guillermo's case, we, his entourage, have clearly made a mistake."

SORE LEG

Puerta, banned for nine months after testing positive for clenbuterol in a tournament in Chile in 2003, is the current number 10.

He reached the final at Roland Garros in June after which he tested positive for a stimulant, the French daily L'Equipe reported last week.

The Argentine, whose physical trainer was former Olympic weightlifter Dario Lecman, denies knowingly taking a banned substance. He said he had taken anti-inflammatory tablets given to him by a doctor for a sore leg.

Doctor Nestor Lentini, who is attached to the Argentine government's Sports Secretariat, was critical of Puerta, saying: "A sportsman has to know what he can and can't take.

"A final like Roland Garros is too important and a sporstman who gets to that stage needs to be well informed."

Other Argentines who have faced suspensions include world number eight Guillermo Coria, who served a seven-month ban after testing positive for nandrolone in 2001. He was later absolved when he was found to have taken a contaminated supplement.

Juan Ignacio Chela was suspended for three months in 2001 for taking a steroid and doubles player Mariano Hood is awaiting judgement after testing positive at Roland Garros for a hair-loss substance banned since November 2004 as a masking agent.

The Argentine Tennis Association (AAT) has blamed a lack of funds for the failure to address the problem.

Former national technical director Fernando Segal said: "We didn't have the budget to look after these problems.

"Technically we are among the best countries in the world in producing players but scientifically we're in the third world."

MARADONA BANS

All these cases, following on from soccer great Diego Maradona's two infamous positive doping tests in the 1990s, have put Argentine sport under a cloud.

Maradona was banned from soccer for 15 months in 1991 while playing for Napoli in Italy and again with Argentina at the 1994 World Cup in the United States, when he declared after being kicked out of the tournament: "My legs have been cut off".

"For some time we Argentines have been looked at with different eyes," said Juan Monaco, who lost the Casablanca final to Puerta in April.

Coria said: "Today, we Argentines are all suspected. Our effort isn't taken into account. We have to do even more to prove we are great players."

Puerta's manager Jorge Brasero said: "It must bother people that Argentina should have the world's number eight, nine, 10 and 11." Coria, David Nalbandian, Puerta and 2004 French Open winner Gaston Gaudio occupy those positions this week.

Former Argentine tennis professional Horacio de la Pena said something had to be done to address the problem.

"It's ridiculous to say that people are pointing their fingers at us; they're doing so because real things are happening and it's our fault," he said.

tangerine_dream
10-11-2005, 10:24 PM
Well, he's upset and mad. We've learned that Ivan says rather extreme things when he's upset. Of course, it was just fine when he said extreme things about Andy Roddick after losing to him. Posters here applauded him. Now it seems some of the same ones are berating him because the shoe is on the other foot. :lol: :lol: He's a passionate guy who sometimes lets his ass overload his mouth. :)
Yes, their "hero" Ivan who trashed Roddick for no reason is suddenly the not-so-nice guy because he's picking on their treasured claycourters. :o Mind you, the same people here defending the Argies are the same ones who are absolutely, positively certain that Andre Agassi is a doper and that the ATP has been hiding the awful truth all these years.

revolution
10-11-2005, 10:27 PM
Andre :worship: Achievements unrivalled by anyone on the main tour, his fans should ignore any filth coming out of some of the people on here.

Julio1974
10-11-2005, 10:28 PM
I'll let WADA say it for me:

"Samples collected from players during the period August 2002- May 2003 led to seven positive test results, revealing the presence of 19-norandrosterone in the samples of seven different players.
...

WADA has reviewed the processes and the steps taken in each of the seven cases. Eventually all seven cases resulted in exonerations...

Time has shown the theory to have been wrong.

The facts therefore do not support the subsequent legal reasoning behind the Tribunal decisions, and those players exonerated were essentially the beneficiaries of the speedy attention and conclusion by the ATP."

WADA REPORT ON ATP CASES
JULY 2004
www.atptennis.com/en/media/reports/WADA_review.pdf

More from the report:

"The second report states that by the first quarter of 2004, the number of elevated (but negative) samples reported with low levels of 19-norandrosterone and the unique analytical fingerprint reached levels similar to the pre May 2003 period.

“With two exceptions, the players interviewed categorically stated that they did not take the electrolyte product or any other product given to them by an ATP trainer prior to the tournament at which the elevated sample was produced.

Given the on-going assumption that the common analytical fingerprint associated with the 19-NA in the urine of men’s tennis players is coming
from a common source, then the obvious implication is that neither the electrolyte product nor the other supplements which the ATP stopped distributing in May 2003 are the cause of these positive and elevated tests”.

...there are now seven cases where exonerations were granted on what are now clearly unsustainable grounds and the exonerations may not be able to be re-visited."

"WADA is disappointed to see that in Cases 6 and 7 the ATP anti-doping tribunal persisted in the application of the estoppel principle despite the fact that the ATP itself indicated that it already had new evidence to the effect that at least two players who showed trace amounts of metabolites of nandrolone with the same unique analytical fingerprint had not consumed the electrolyte tablet."

_____________

Cases
Case 1 – Specimen 368541 –Out of Competition Test
B sample tested 8-9 January 2003
Exoneration Decision 30 June 2003

Case 2 – Sample 370459
B sample tested 13-14 January 2003
Defence Statement by player11 June 2003
Letter from ATP accepting the principle of estoppel 16 July 2003
Exoneration Decision 24 July 2003

Case 3 – Sample 370468
B sample tested, 15-16 January 2003
Defence Statement by Player, 9 May 2003
Letter from AT, accepting the principle of estoppel, 16 June 2003
No hearing
Exoneration Decision 7 July 2003

Case 4 – Bohdan Ulihrach - Sample 370630
B sample tested, 20 January 2003
Statement of Claim by player", 31 March 2003
Hearing, 22 April 2003
First Tribunal decision, 1 May 2003 (2-year sanction)
Second Tribunal decision, 7 July 2003 (exoneration)

Case 5 – Sample 370658
B sample tested, 20-21 January 2003
Statement of Claim by ATP, after 27 March 2003
Exoneration decision, 20 June 2003

Case 6 – Sample 372477
B sample tested (date unknown)
No hearing
Exoneration decision, 24 September 2003

Case 7 – Sample 166671
B sample tested (date unknown)
No hearing
Exoneration decision, 27 October 2003

I wonder about all the names you don't hear. Are those players all Argentine too? I seriously doubt it.

Tangerine Dream: Read this post. I think it's clear that the ATP was hiding some cases. So, I have the right to doubt about the ATP fairness (without condonning the mistakes made by some Argentine players).

revolution
10-11-2005, 10:30 PM
Well 24 September 2003 was Greg Rusedski's case I think, so that one is counted out.

And because they are hidden, they must be Americans and/or Agassi, given the bias on here.

Julio1974
10-11-2005, 10:32 PM
Well 24 September 2003 was Greg Rusedski's case I think, so that one is counted out.

And because they are hidden, they must be Americans and/or Agassi, given the bias on here.

It's impossible to know the name of the players. But you must admit that the fairness of ATP prcess is really into question.

revolution
10-11-2005, 10:34 PM
There's 7 cases sooo Coria, Chela, Puerta, Canas, Ulihrach, Rusedski.. and one more.

Julio1974
10-11-2005, 10:40 PM
There's 7 cases sooo Coria, Chela, Puerta, Canas, Ulihrach, Rusedski.. and one more.

No. All those 7 cases ended up in exoneration (so, it's not Coria, it's not Cañas, it's not Puerta, it's not Chela). Please, read again the post.

revolution
10-11-2005, 10:44 PM
What bets on one of them being John Van Lottum?

oneandonlyhsn
10-12-2005, 12:57 AM
Well, he's upset and mad. We've learned that Ivan says rather extreme things when he's upset. Of course, it was just fine when he said extreme things about Andy Roddick after losing to him. Posters here applauded him. Now it seems some of the same ones are berating him because the shoe is on the other foot. :lol: :lol: He's a passionate guy who sometimes lets his ass overload his mouth. :)

:worship: :worship:

Action Jackson
10-12-2005, 01:00 AM
Ljubo says what he thinks and like it or not, he doesn't give cliched answers. To these clowns whinging about double standards, people can say whatever they like, doesn't mean that it has to be agreed with.

El Legenda
10-12-2005, 01:20 AM
Ljubo says what he thinks and like it or not, he doesn't give cliched answers. To these clowns whinging about double standards, people can say whatever they like, doesn't mean that it has to be agreed with.

amen. but i love seeing these troll making ass' out of themselves.

El Legenda
10-12-2005, 01:22 AM
Regarding Ljubicic, Puerta beat im in Umag in the year 2000 on clay, is he claiming that Mariano was doped than also? .

that was 6-4 4-6 6-4 match and after that Puerta was suspended for doping, so he might of been on it that time. :)

vamos argentina1
10-12-2005, 02:53 PM
Why do people, whenever the Argentine doping problem is brought up, use it to point the finger at Agassi?

He NEVER doped, period.

because it marks everytime the double face of the ATP

someone doesnt like too many south americans on the top..its not good for the business of the sport in the us

and just to remind you...argentines didnt blame agassi this time...it was magnus norman....number 2 in the world in year 2000

and you can ask everyone on the tour (coaches, tennis ppl etc) they'll tell u agassi is doped

star
10-12-2005, 02:57 PM
Yes, their "hero" Ivan who trashed Roddick for no reason is suddenly the not-so-nice guy because he's picking on their treasured claycourters. :o Mind you, the same people here defending the Argies are the same ones who are absolutely, positively certain that Andre Agassi is a doper and that the ATP has been hiding the awful truth all these years.

I'm one who is not defending the Argies and am still sure that Agassi has been doping for years. :)

star
10-12-2005, 03:01 PM
someone doesnt like too many south americans on the top..its not good for the business of the sport in the us



Having Argies on the top has nothing to do with the business of the sport in the U.S.

Do you really think the U.S. public somehow thinks it is better for Europeans or Asians to be at the top of the sport rather than South Americans? I don't think so. I think it's better for the business of the sport that Latin Americans are at the top of the sport rather than Europeans or Asians because there is such a huge Latin American population in the U.S.

Personally, I tend to have a soft spot for players from South and Central America. I want them to do well because the are from the same hemisphere and seem more like "local" guys to me. :)

lorenz
10-12-2005, 03:08 PM
.... I don't think so. I think it's better for the business of the sport that Latin Americans are at the top of the sport rather than Europeans or Asians because there is such a huge Latin American population in the U.S.....


I think that the huge Latin American Population in the U.S.A, manily, doesn't watch tennis.

star
10-12-2005, 03:18 PM
Maybe you haven't been to the Masters tournament in Miami. :) :)

Go there and then tell me the Latin American population here doesnt' watch tennis.

And anyway, it would be great for business here in particular if there were a Mexican player at the top of the game. That would allow for marketing to a huge population and possibly draw them into the game.

I'm just saying I think Latin American players have always been as popular as Europeans here, if not more so.

lorenz
10-12-2005, 03:24 PM
Maybe you haven't been to the Masters tournament in Miami. :) :)

Go there and then tell me the Latin American population here doesnt' watch tennis.

And anyway, it would be great for business here in particular if there were a Mexican player at the top of the game. That would allow for marketing to a huge population and possibly draw them into the game.

I'm just saying I think Latin American players have always been as popular as Europeans here, if not more so.

That's right I didn't go to the Masters in Miami. But is a matter of percentages, the people you watched in that tournament is not representive of the mayority Latin American population of the States.
I also think that the Latin american players can be popular as anybody.
:)

Baseline
10-12-2005, 05:35 PM
I think that the huge Latin American Population in the U.S.A, manily, doesn't watch tennis.

If they don't watch now, based on trends, they will be soon and in large numbers. From the USTA site, Diversity Newsletter, Sept 2005

"Did you know?

1 out of every 5 new tennis players is of Hispanic origin."

1 out of every 7 persons living in the United States is of Hispanic origin."

Between July 2003 and July 2004, Hispanics accounted for one-half of the overall population growth of 2.9 million. In July 2004, there were an estimated 41.3 million Hispanics in the U.S. ...

Hispanic buying power ... is expected to increase to $992 billion in 2009. Source: U.S. Census Bureau and Hispanic Trends
__________

OR, based on this new study, are Hispanics in the US already big followers of tennis? Do people play because they follow the pros, or follow the pros because they play? Might they watch even more tennis broadcasts if marketed differently?

"[N]ew research study conducted by Octagon Sports Marketing. The appropriately titled “Passion Drivers” study focused on why fans are so passionate about the sports they follow and what drives their devotion to that sport.

The survey identified the No. 1 Passion Driver for the general tennis fan population as “love of the game.” Tennis fans, in general, are drawn to the thrill of the game and enjoy watching regardless of who is playing.

Conversely, the No. 1 Passion Driver for multicultural tennis fans is “active appreciation.” These fans appreciate the skill level of the sport and, therefore, are active players. "

revolution
10-12-2005, 05:39 PM
because it marks everytime the double face of the ATP

someone doesnt like too many south americans on the top..its not good for the business of the sport in the us

and just to remind you...argentines didnt blame agassi this time...it was magnus norman....number 2 in the world in year 2000

and you can ask everyone on the tour (coaches, tennis ppl etc) they'll tell u agassi is doped

And you have asked these people and they say Agassi is doped? Get real.

Jogy
10-12-2005, 06:37 PM
we knows that Ljubicic is a sore loser and a loser who never got big result in Grand Slam
and now he saying that if Puerta had not doped he would have had good result in Roland Garros after somebody has spanked him in three sets without shot to win :lol: :rolls:

get real Ljubibitch
we know you are a whiner :baby:
"I would have won that match in every location other than USA, I got so many wrong calls"
"I have not enough tournament in Croatia, have to play all the time away :sobbing: " :baby:

:baby:


SORE LOSER!!
Puertas doping is not prooved yet and Ljubicic does as if he doped for 2nd time

El Legenda
10-12-2005, 06:44 PM
"I would have won that match in every location other than USA, I got so many wrong calls"


can u find a source of this Quote?

trulliscorpion
10-12-2005, 06:45 PM
Bleh. Ljubicic should learn to shut the hell up. After his loss to Gasquet at USO, he went all over lack of discipline stuff that's more than a year old about Richard. He's clearly over it now, it's easily noticeable. Obviously, it had nothing to do with the match he had lost.

Ivan takes sore losing to a whole new level

revolution
10-12-2005, 06:50 PM
Some people really are double standard: those that praised Ljubicic for attacking Roddick's credibilty then complain when he moans about Puerta doping, you can't have it both ways.

El Legenda
10-12-2005, 06:57 PM
Bleh. Ljubicic should learn to shut the hell up. After his loss to Gasquet at USO, he went all over lack of discipline stuff that's more than a year old about Richard. He's clearly over it now, it's easily noticeable. Obviously, it had nothing to do with the match he had lost.

Ivan takes sore losing to a whole new level

everyone in here would of felt say way.

El Legenda
10-12-2005, 06:58 PM
Some people really are double standard: those that praised Ljubicic for attacking Roddick's credibilty then complain when he moans about Puerta doping, you can't have it both ways.

what? how is that double standard. attacking someone for doping and attacking someone for fun, cuz he is an assclown.
dont try to sound smart next time.

revolution
10-12-2005, 07:00 PM
what? how is that double standard. attacking someone for doping and attacking someone for fun, cuz he is an assclown.
dont try to sound smart next time.

No, I mean some people were all praising Ljubicic when he attacked Roddick's credibility, and these same people turned against him when he accused Puerta of doping. Although I think Mariano hasn't doped.

El Legenda
10-12-2005, 07:02 PM
No, I mean some people were all praising Ljubicic when he attacked Roddick's credibility, and these same people turned against him when he accused Puerta of doping. Although I think Mariano hasn't doped.
:angel: my falt i miss read it

GOOD POINT :yeah:

Jogy
10-12-2005, 07:22 PM
people who accuse Agassi of doping without proove are the same pathetic as people who think Puerta is guilty for 2nd time only because French newspaper say it

El Legenda
10-12-2005, 07:32 PM
people who accuse Agassi of doping without proove are the same pathetic as people who think Puerta is guilty for 2nd time only because French newspaper say it

thats why, cuz its the 2nd time. this would have not been this much of deal with Puerta was not a little bitch already.

El Legenda
10-12-2005, 07:34 PM
Mr.Jogy im a little suprised that you have not said yet, that Haas will beat Ljubicic tomorrow in Vienna

Jogy
10-12-2005, 07:37 PM
Some people really are double standard: those that praised Ljubicic for attacking Roddick's credibilty then complain when he moans about Puerta doping, you can't have it both ways.
joe,
it is easy how it is going:
when Ljubicic is saying Roddick and Agassi is assholes: he is praised
when Ljubicic is saying Puerta cheats all Argentina fans get on him and are against him

also I wonder what had have happend when it is not Puerta but another player. Roddick, Agassi, Hewitt or others?

90% of people defending Puerta now would not be here when it was another player and they would want to believe french newspaper saying "I always have known it" "it was clear Agassi doped" "I always wonder how Hewitt can run for so long time". It's all about nation: Argentina gets defended by the fans, other nations would get killed for same

Jogy
10-12-2005, 07:41 PM
Mr.Jogy im a little suprised that you have not said yet, that Haas will beat Ljubicic tomorrow in Vienna
does not need to be said
Haas better player, has positive history in Vienna remembering huge win, better talent, crowd support for Haas because he has Austrian family

centre Court in Vienna will be Ljubicic's grave tomorrow :devil:

**** RIP ****
Ivan Ljubicic (CRO)
He passed away while
being kicked by Tommy Haas
around on Centre Court
on Oct 13th

El Legenda
10-12-2005, 07:43 PM
does not need to be said
Haas better player, has positive history in Vienna remembering huge win, better talent, crowd support for Haas because he has Austrian family

centre Court in Vienna will be Ljubicic's grave tomorrow :devil:

**** RIP ****
Ivan Ljubicic (CRO)
He passed away while
being kicked by Haas
around on Centre Court
on Oct 13th

:haha: Ljubicic is 21-3 indoor this year and going for 10 straight wins.

Jogy
10-12-2005, 07:44 PM
:haha: Ljubicic is 21-3 indoor this year and going for 10 straight wins.
Haas will go for his 2nd Vienna title tomorrow and show Ljubicic how tennis is played in indoor arena

tangerine_dream
10-12-2005, 07:45 PM
Originally Posted by Jogy
"I would have won that match in every location other than USA, I got so many wrong calls"
can u find a source of this Quote?
Of course. It's only been reported everywhere. :)

Roddick withstands US Open challenge for the ages
Sunday, August 31, 2003

NEW YORK: Andy Roddick was given a challenge for his 21st birthday and the American responded with a tie-breaker rally for the ages at the US Open as the clock struck midnight on Ivan Ljubicic’s upset bid.

American fourth seed Roddick battled past the 43rd-ranked Croatian 6-3, 6-7 (4/7), 6-3, 7-6 (10/8) here in a match that lasted three hours and five minutes and ended here early Saturday morning, minutes into Roddick’s 21st birthday. “I’ve been 21 for nine minutes now. I think I deserve a beer,” Roddick said moments after advancing to the third round. He was presented a cake and led the crowd at Arthur Ashe Stadium in a rendition of “Happy Birthday to You”. “I don’t know if I have ever played in front of a louder crowd,” Roddick said. “They were really into it. I was kind of feeding off of it.”

After going 21-1 and winning three hardcourt titles since Wimbledon, Roddick seized the ATP Champions Race lead and became a favorite here. But he struggled to subdue a stubborn rival who broke him only once but battled to the finish. Roddick trailed Ljubicic 5-2 in the final tie-breaker when midnight struck. He turned 21, his match fortunes changing with his age as Ljubicic double faulted and Roddick won eight of the final 11 points.

After saving four set points, Roddick fired a 138-mph ace to earn his first match point. Ljubicic hit a forehand volley winner to save it but Roddick followed with a forehand winner and Ljubicic fired a final lob long to end it.

After the match, Ljubicic ripped Roddick for playing to the crowd with antics that affected line call’s and umpire decisions. “Anywhere in the world except in the United States, if we played this match, I would have won,” Ljubicic said. “It affected the linesmen, the crowd, everyone else except me. In a match like this, that’s what made the change.”

Roddick, who next faces Brazil’s 49th-ranked Flavio Saretta, sad Ljubicic was being a sore loser. “That’s pretty much sour grapes,” Roddick said. “That doesn’t deserve a response. That’s not respectful. I definitely dont have anything bad to say about him. That’s disappointing.” :worship:

Ljubicic was irate over a forehand winner on the sideline by Roddick that leveled the final tie-breaker at 7-7. He sank to his knees when the call was made, appealing in vain for an over-rule from the umpire. “What can I say? If he’s going to change it, he’s going to change it straight away,” Ljubicic said. “If he’s not changing it in one or two seconds, you can talk all night and he’s not going to change it. “That was the crucial point. I’m excpecting some bad calls but it hurts when it happens in the crucial moment like that.”

Roddick said the ball was good and television replays supported him, even though Ljubicic said he called the ball good before it landed and linesmen were too intimidated to contradict him before a cheering crowd. “There was no space but maybe he was trying to be demonstrative trying to get a call,” Roddick said. “I don’t know why he has to drag me into the call.”

Roddick cruised through the first set and was up a break in the second when Ljubicic responded with his only break of the match to force the tie-breaker and stayed aggressive with a variety of shots. “I let him back into the match in the second set and he started playing a lot better,” Roddick said. “He definitely lifted his level. In the tie-breakers he played really good tennis.”


And...I love this article :angel:

After Opponent's Rant, Roddick Shows Class

By SELENA ROBERTS
August 31, 2003
NY Times

ONE teenager traveled 48 hours by bus on an escape route out of Bosnia that required him to crawl beneath barbed wire to find refuge from the war.

The other teenager cruised past the gated communities of Boca Raton, Fla., in his mom's luxury S.U.V. to travel from his parents' backyard court to matches.

One was Ivan Ljubicic; the other was Andy Roddick. Neither chose the divergent paths to tennis, but the differences between the sufferers and the spoon-fed on the Tour have bred a trace of contempt for Roddick's rise.

To underscore, we offer up Ljubicic, the test case for the beleaguered. Long before he claimed on Friday that the fellas in the locker room urged him to kick Roddick's pants (so to speak), well before he huffed Martha Stewart-like disdain for the birthday boy's on-court etiquette at the United States Open, Ljubicic expressed a theory a year ago on poverty's motivation versus the pratfalls of privilege.

Pondering the size restrictions of a rich kid's heart and using Roddick as his example, Ljubicic said in an interview that "the thing with poor kids is, it's natural that you have to fight for everything.''

"You want badly to win because you know what life can be like if you don't," he said.

What was reasonable resentment back then turned into an irrational rant after Ljubicic's loss to Roddick on Friday night just after midnight. "Fortunately for him, there is, like, 70 percent of the big tournaments in the States," Ljubicic said. "He's No. 4 in the world for that."

Anti-Americanism is an international trend, but between the lines of Ljubicic-speak, it seems that Roddick hasn't suffered enough for success by the Croat's count. Where is the pain for the gain? Where was the hell before the hype?

True, Roddick did not stand in line for cheese rations like the Russian players of perestroika - as did Marat Safin before he moved to the mean streets of Monte Carlo, also the haven of choice for Ljubicic - but the struggling-artist theory falls apart when applied to Roddick, the 21-year-old American star, in his current mature form.

If anything, Ljubicic was ruffling the Roddick of old, the one whose cartoon eyes would launch from their sockets on a spring at every tight call, the one who was prone to ouchies and injuries in big matches.

Roddick is different now than he was even a year ago. He is still colorful, but in more muted tones. He is still entertaining, but to the scale of the stage.

This past year has been more than a spurt in maturity, it has been a passage in Roddick's development as a future champion of majors, as a potential No. 1 in the ranking, as the American who won't fail hope.

It began with a train ride Roddick took in early June, when he traveled from London to Paris to fire his coach, friend, protector and Florida neighbor, Tarik Benhabiles. As emotional as it would be, Roddick had to tell Benhabiles in person: he had hired Brad Gilbert.

"Andy is a stand-up guy and didn't want to take the easy way out," said his brother, John, when reached by telephone on Friday. "Tarik was always there for him, making sure he was in bed on time, and eating right. They slept in the same room on the road. He was very important at that time in Andy's life.

"Part of what was hard is that Andy started with Tarik at 17. And then, all of the sudden, Andy was a man. Sometimes, if things don't change to reflect that, it gets very difficult. That's where Andy and Tarik were. Andy started pulling away."

Gilbert isn't a father figure - after all, Metallica members don't wear cardigans - but he is just what Roddick needs now, just as Benhabiles was the perfect fit for the wonder years.

No need for curfew, no need for bed check, Roddick is a man, able to handle his own crises, as on Friday night, for example. Instead of spitting back at the 24-year-old Ljubicic when told of his opponent's criticism, Roddick chose introspection over knee-jerk reaction.

"I feel bad if I got on his nerves or something," Roddick said. "I wish he would have come to me and said, 'This got on my nerves.' "

Ljubicic didn't go to Roddick; Roddick went to Ljubicic. Around 1 a.m., Roddick called Ljubicic, wanting to know why he didn't come to him first with a complaint.

"I asked him last night if he feels like I should apologize to him," said Ljubicic, retracing his conversation with Roddick. "He said, 'If you really don't feel nothing bad about me, why should you apologize?' I think this is perfect."

But Ljubicic, to his credit, still stood by his original description of Roddick's behavior. "I just wanted to say that I didn't like his attitude on the court, not just last night but generally," Ljubicic said. "I don't have to like it, you know."

Obviously, the two will see this differently, opinions shaped by different cultures and different pasts. While Ljubicic has a viewpoint shaped by war, poverty and fear, privilege doesn't translate into petulance in Roddick's case.

Would an all-American brat have called Ljubicic? Would a self-absorbed star care so deeply about his last coach? As this past year has revealed, Roddick's perspective, maturity and compassion are not bound by a gated world.

:cool:

El Legenda
10-12-2005, 07:46 PM
Haas will go for his 2nd Vienna title tomorrow and show Ljubicic how tennis is played in indoor hall

Haas days of winning titles are done. I will admit i did miss you when Ljubo won Metz last week. were you in hiding?

Jogy
10-12-2005, 07:46 PM
thank Tangerine :)
I know what I know and Ljubicic sayed that
not word by word how I posted it, but meaning was identical
Ljbubibitch's whining and sore looser behaviour about tournaments and referees are well known
and now Ljubicic thinking: "I never posted a big result in a Slam, but when Puerta has doped I would have and Puerta's doping denyed me a big result"

El Legenda
10-12-2005, 07:49 PM
After the match, Ljubicic ripped Roddick for playing to the crowd with antics that affected line call’s and umpire decisions. “Anywhere in the world except in the United States, if we played this match, I would have won,” Ljubicic said. “It affected the linesmen, the crowd, everyone else except me. In a match like this, that’s what made the change.”



:cool:

see i was right, he did missed quote it. :)

Jogy
10-12-2005, 07:50 PM
"With a good result at Roland Garros I would have been in the PTA top 10. If Puerta's doping is positive, I'll think about suing the ITF. All tennis players feel ripped off. I was shocked by this news -- they've done it twice to me in Paris," said Ljubicic, who lost in the first round of Roland Garros to Puerta.
need a tissue, you little bitch??! :tears: :sobbing:

:sad:

El Legenda
10-12-2005, 07:54 PM
I just love these articles :lol:


Croatia beats U.S. again in Davis Cup
By Ken Peters (Agencies)
Updated: 2005-03-07 13:46


The United States remains in a Davis Cup slump.


Croatia's Ivan Ljubicic, center, celebrates with rest of teammates and officials after he defeated United States' Andy Roddick during their first round reverse singles match of Davis Cup at the Home Depot Center in Carson, Calif., Sunday, March 6, 2005. Ljubicic won 4-6,6-3,7-6,(11), 6-7(7), 6-2 :haha:to eliminated the U.S. and advance Croatia to the Davis Cup quarter-finals.[AP]

Ivan Ljubicic beat Andy Roddick in a taut, five-set marathon Sunday to give Croatia an insurmountable 3-1 lead in the opening-round Davis Cup matches.


Playing iron man for his country, Ljubicic outlasted Roddick 4-6, 6-3, 7-6 (11), 6-7 (7), 6-2 in a match that lasted almost 4 hours.


"It's tough to describe. Really, really bad," a dejected Roddick said. "There's no worse feeling than losing a match in Davis Cup in our sport, especially when your teammates are counting on you. There's so many people that you're playing for and that you feel like you've let down."


The final singles match was reduced to essentially an exhibition since Croatia had clinched the round. Andre Agassi was scheduled to play Mario Ancic, but doubles specialist Bob Bryan filled in for the United States and beat Roko Karanusic 2-6, 6-3, 6-1.


The 25-year-old Ljubicic began the round with a straight-set win over Agassi, then teamed with Ancic to hand Bob Bryan and his twin brother, Mike, their first Davis Cup loss in six matches.


Ljubicic also played and won three first-round matches in 2003 in Zagreb when Croatia eliminated the United States.


The Americans, who lost to Spain in the finals last year, have won the Cup 31 times, but haven't taken it since 1995. The drought is their longest in 68 years.


The 34-year-old Agassi rejoined the U.S. team to try to help end the winless streak, but he lost his only match, to Ljubicic in Friday's opening singles. Roddick beat Ancic in four sets in their match the first day.


Both Roddick and Ljubicic played extremely well in their exciting match, with Roddick's serves reaching as high as 152 mph. But Ljubicic was able to punch back some of the powerful first serves, and he pounced on Roddick's 73 second serves to win 41 points.


After winning the fourth-set tiebreaker, Roddick immediately lost his serve in the opening game of the fifth set. Ljubicic broke through again in the fifth game to take clear control.


Ljubicic, on a roll that has carried him to four tour finals this year, was proud to win for his country.


"I think all around the world, this is going to be big news because to beat Andre, Bryans and Roddick in three days, I think it's a great effort," he said.


"I was thinking if I could just win one singles, just to keep up the momentum and just keep the confidence up. But I did it all the way, so it is just amazing."


The Croatian, no slouch himself serving, often hit the mid 130-mph range, and his 19 aces matched Roddick's total.


Playing three matches in as many days may have started to take a toll on Ljubicic, with his right knee tightening up in the fifth set of the 3 hour, 58-minute match against Roddick.

Speaking of sore loser

"Unfortunately for me, he can still serve 135 (mph) while getting treatment for cramps," Roddick said. :crying2: Need a tissue, you little bitch ,(Jogy dont steal my line:))



When Ljubicic finished it off with a service winner, the Croatian team locked arms and broke into an impromptu jig on the court.

Croatia seemed to have almost as many fans as the U.S. team in the lively, drum-banging and somewhat rowdy crowd of 6,584. Southern California is home to a large number of transplanted Croatians.

Jogy
10-12-2005, 07:58 PM
Seinfeld, let Ljubicic have his one win against Roddick in 8 years history so that he only trails 1-6 in h2h to his superior American enemy :lol:

El Legenda
10-12-2005, 07:59 PM
Seinfeld, let Ljubicic have his one win against Roddick in 8 years history so that he only trails 1-6 in h2h :lol:

only good as your last match vs someone.. i think Ljubicic win was more important and affect more people then all those other combained

Jogy
10-12-2005, 08:02 PM
I hope Ljubicic will lose next five times to Roddick again
just to punish him for his sore looser behaviour what he said after the match when Roddick beaten him in US Open 03

Jogy
10-12-2005, 08:05 PM
Haas days of winning titles are done. I will admit i did miss you when Ljubo won Metz last week. were you in hiding?
I was away going to WTA tournament in Germany
Ljubicic won a small mickey mouse in Metz? wow, what a surprise he is winning tournament finally :lol:

El Legenda
10-12-2005, 08:06 PM
>> Andy >> Interviews >> Davis Cup (vs. Croatia)

07 March, 2005
Andy speaks with the press after being defeated by Ivan Ljubicic of Croatia in the reverse singles match of Davis Cup, March 6, 2005, Carsen, California.

I. LJUBICIC/A. Roddick
4-6, 6-3, 7-6, 6-7, 6-2
An interview with:
ANDY RODDICK

RANDY WALKER: Questions for Andy.

Q. Can you share with us right now how you're feeling?

ANDY RODDICK: Probably not in words so you would understand. It's tough to describe. Really, really bad.

Q. Can you talk about what happened in the beginning of the fifth set, after winning the tiebreak.

ANDY RODDICK: I just played a loose game. Bottom line, I didn't make him play good tennis. You know, I felt like I was the fresher of the two of us. You know, I just pissed away a game there in the first game.

Q. What do you think you could have done different to win?

ANDY RODDICK: Win a point there in the tiebreaker, you know, whatever set it was, second set. I mean, just bear down in the fifth. I mean, you know, I thought I was playing the right way. You know, I felt the momentum turn. I was getting the better of points, you know, at the latter stages of the third set and the beginning of the fourth, you know, throughout the fourth. I just played a bad game.

Q. He was hitting some second serves that were really jumping away from you on the deuce side. Is that something unique out there, the way he hits that serve?

ANDY RODDICK: No. It's a kick serve. Are you talking about to the backhand?

Q. Yes.

ANDY RODDICK: Well, this court, I mean, it's great for his serve because he gets a lot of -- you know, his second serve's pretty much all kick. This court is so gritty that it bites. It kind of hesitates then really takes off. I mean, you saw it the other day. I think Andre was having trouble with it a little bit, you know, whereas if it's a slicker court, it might come through a little more and you might get a better swing on it.

Q. Can you talk about the difference in feeling, not being able to take a match for your Davis Cup team as opposed to individually?

ANDY RODDICK: I mean, there's no worse feeling than losing a match in Davis Cup in
our sport, you know, especially when your teammates or counting on you. I mean, if it's for you, you know, you can call yourself a whatever. But, you know, it's just on you. In this situation, there's so many people that you're playing for and that you feel like you've let down. So, I mean, it's not even comparable.

Q. He had never really had a legitimate victory over you going into this match. Is he a much-improved player? Going into the fifth set, outside the break right at the beginning, did you think eventually you were going to out-tough him?

ANDY RODDICK: Yeah. I mean, I felt great going into the fifth set. I knew I still had my legs under me and that, you know, he was kind of dogging on some balls there, you know, late in the fourth set. You know, but there's no question that he's improved. I mean, he's improved every year, you know, with his consistency, his shot selection, you know, with the amount of returns he gets in play. You know, from a couple years ago till now, it's night and day with him.

Q. Were you surprised that he didn't run out of gas, considering all he's played in the last month?

ANDY RODDICK: Well, he did. He was getting treatment for cramps. But unfortunately for me, he can still serve 135 while getting treated for
cramps.

Q. Talk about the fourth game. You're back in it again. You had Love-40 on his serve. Talk about what happened there.

ANDY RODDICK: He came up with some good stuff. I mean, he was just able to come up with serves pretty much all day when he needed them. You know, he was mixing it up well. I didn't really have a huge clue where it was going. He was hitting both of them pretty clutch. You know, I gave it a look on a couple of points there. You
know, I'd like to say I played horrible points there, but, you know, I played two pretty good points and he came up with some big serves on the other ones. You know, I definitely think that would have been a huge step towards turning it around.

Q. This was a match that seemed to have so many turning points. How would you rate the point when he's leading 2-1 in the fifth, he's serving at Love-40, and he was able to pull out the game? It would have been 2-2, even in the fifth. Do you remember that?

ANDY RODDICK: I remember it. But you just pretty much answered your own question. Obviously, I mean, I just said, if I get through that one, it's a huge turning point, and I feel like, you know, I had my legs under me a little bit more. But, you know, you can go there, you can go back to one point in the doubles yesterday, you can go back to one point today in the tiebreaker in the second set. You know, there's many specific points that didn't go our way this weekend, but that's the nature of it. We didn't go out and take 'em.

Q. Speaking of so many points. Coming off of the tough loss in Seville, people were saying, "We have to develop a clay court game." In some ways you could say an even tougher loss here with Andre and the Bryans going down. Is there anything that can be done? Are we a little snake-bit? What can be done to turn the ship around Davis Cup-wise?

ANDY RODDICK: We just got to win, you know. I don't know if it's -- you know, I don't know. We just took a loss. I don't really know how to go about answering that. I mean, we go out here and we pour our hearts out. You know, we just haven't
got the better end of it yet. I mean, I think we just keep working hard and keep going after it. I don't think there's some magic answer for you, there's no quick fix, otherwise we would be doing it. Let me know if you think of anything. It would be super.

Q. As great as this team was on paper, the US team coming in here, how surprising is it that Ljubicic comes in on US home soil, beats Andre, the Bryans and you?

ANDY RODDICK: Well, I wouldn't have put money on it. But I knew coming in we probably had, you know, one of the toughest first-round draws. They were both playing hot. Especially Ivan is having a great start to the season. You know, we definitely did not take these guys lightly and knew that we had our work cut out for us. Unfortunately for us he stepped up and played some good tennis this weekend.

Q. Do you think the most improvement that Ivan made is the capability to play big points in a right way, like returning your 145-miles-an-hour serve in a tiebreak?

ANDY RODDICK: I think that comes with confidence. You know, I think, you know, before he just wasn't consistent in getting himself to the point where he'd play the big points. I think, you know, it's a lot easier to play the big points well when you're as confident as he is and when you're as match-tough as he is right now. I just think he's improved in a lot of areas. I don't think it's just one thing.

Q. Is it maybe a bit of an empty feeling that this might be the last time we'll see Andre on a US team?

ANDY RODDICK: Yeah. I mean, who knows. I mean, we have to wait a pretty long time to go at it again, which, you know, it's disappointing. We felt like we had a pretty good opportunity, and we were so excited. So, you know, that definitely is sad, as well.

not bashing andy here, but can someone court how many times he said YOU KNOW. would they be asked those question of THEY KNEW

Jogy
10-12-2005, 08:07 PM
not bashing andy here, but can someone court how many times he said YOU KNOW.
Hewitt is saying it dozens of more times as all other players

El Legenda
10-12-2005, 08:07 PM
I was away going to WTA tournament in Germany
Ljubicic won a small mickey mouse in Metz? wow, what a surprise he is winning tournament finally :lol:

both his wins are in French Metz and Lyon. did you see how easy it was to beat the #7 player in world Davydenko. and the up and coming start Monfils

El Legenda
10-12-2005, 08:10 PM
i got about 25+. its not a suprised when players say it when english is there 2nd lang.

revolution
10-12-2005, 08:38 PM
I wonder who finally gave Jogy the mighty red bar? :devil:

tangerine_dream
10-13-2005, 08:36 PM
Getting back to the original subject: from the SI.com mailbag this week:

What's your opinion on the high positive tests for banned substances among the Argentines? Is it a fluke that six pros in the past two to three years tested positive? -- Rex Jim, Leipzig, Germany

Lots of questions on the Argies and their pharmacological intake this week. I think we need to reserve judgment on Mariano Hood and Mariano Puerta until all the evidence is in. But can we at least agree that, statistically speaking, something is very rotten in Buenos Aires?

For the pot-stirring portion of today's show, one of you suggested that, in light of the (wildly disproportional) rash of failed drug tests, Argentina ought to face a ban from Davis Cup. In as much as the current allegations pan out, I can't say I'd be opposed. When one country is responsible for virtually every positive test, clearly something is going on.

sigmagirl91
10-13-2005, 08:40 PM
Getting back to the original subject: from the SI.com mailbag this week:

What's your opinion on the high positive tests for banned substances among the Argentines? Is it a fluke that six pros in the past two to three years tested positive? -- Rex Jim, Leipzig, Germany

Lots of questions on the Argies and their pharmacological intake this week. I think we need to reserve judgment on Mariano Hood and Mariano Puerta until all the evidence is in. But can we at least agree that, statistically speaking, something is very rotten in Buenos Aires?

For the pot-stirring portion of today's show, one of you suggested that, in light of the (wildly disproportional) rash of failed drug tests, Argentina ought to face a ban from Davis Cup. In as much as the current allegations pan out, I can't say I'd be opposed. When one country is responsible for virtually every positive test, clearly something is going on.

For the record, Mariano Hood admitted that he was contacted by the ITF, so his status is no longer in doubt. It's Puerta that no one really knows anything about.
As for the Davis Cup ban, I don't know. That's pretty extreme.

sigmagirl91
10-13-2005, 08:41 PM
not bashing andy here, but can someone court how many times he said YOU KNOW. would they be asked those question of THEY KNEW

Kim Clijsters and Roger Federer corner the market with the you knows.

Chloe le Bopper
10-13-2005, 08:42 PM
It's not just extreme, it's completely unreasonable.

On that note, maybe we should ban the US (and many other countries, for that matter - I'm picking on the US since Werthiem is writing from there) from participating in track and field. Or baseball.

sigmagirl91
10-13-2005, 08:45 PM
It's not just extreme, it's completely unreasonable.

On that note, maybe we should ban the US (and many other countries, for that matter - I'm picking on the US since Werthiem is writing from there) from participating in track and field. Or baseball.

And you and I both know that will not happen. Not only will it not happen, but the ITF would not consider such an action. Perhaps have them forfeit any matches Puerta (oh, and Cañas) participated in. If we do that, the doubles victories would be voided, but the outcomes of the ties would be the same. So no...a ban would not be necessary in this instance.

Chloe le Bopper
10-13-2005, 08:48 PM
And you and I both know that will not happen. Not only will it not happen, but the ITF would not consider such an action. Perhaps have them forfeit any matches Puerta (oh, and Cañas) participated in. If we do that, the doubles victories would be voided, but the outcomes of the ties would be the same. So no...a ban would not be necessary in this instance.
I assume they are tested at the Davis Cup events anyways, so assuming they passed their tests at that particular event... it shouldn't make a difference if they tested positive somewhere else or not.

That said, assuming that Canas could have played Australia, he did the right thing by fessing up about the charges and not showing. Mind you, I'm not entirely sure if that was his choice or not... but if it was, it was a good move :p

sigmagirl91
10-13-2005, 08:50 PM
I assume they are tested at the Davis Cup events anyways, so assuming they passed their tests at that particular event... it shouldn't make a difference if they tested positive somewhere else or not.

That said, assuming that Canas could have played Australia, he did the right thing by fessing up about the charges and not showing. Mind you, I'm not entirely sure if that was his choice or not... but if it was, it was a good move :p

I'm not entirely convinced that Cañas voluntarily 'fessed up, but that's another discussion.

vamos argentina1
10-15-2005, 10:55 AM
It's not just extreme, it's completely unreasonable.

On that note, maybe we should ban the US (and many other countries, for that matter - I'm picking on the US since Werthiem is writing from there) from participating in track and field. Or baseball.

right...and ban italians from their soccer league (every year 4-5 players r banned in the serie a)....and ban italians and french from the tour de france...and ban americans from track and field, baseball and swimming...and ban czechs from tennis (korda, ulirach, novacek)...right

DhammaTiger
10-15-2005, 11:39 AM
right...and ban italians from their soccer league (every year 4-5 players r banned in the serie a)....and ban italians and french from the tour de france...and ban americans from track and field, baseball and swimming...and ban czechs from tennis (korda, ulirach, novacek)...right
vamos argentina1, that was a wonderful post. Thank you.

tangerine_dream
10-18-2005, 10:19 PM
Justin Gimelstob's take on the whole thing:

The straight dope
I often wonder if I compete on an even playing field

Mariano Puerta's recent doping allegation is his second since 2003. He's also the fourth Argentine in four years to be implicated.

ESPN, Posted: Tuesday October 18, 2005

The ongoing steroid controversy in baseball has everyone on edge about doping in sports. But sadly, tennis isn't immune to this issue -- far from it.

A few weeks ago, the French newspaper L'Equipe (the same publication that recently claimed Lance Armstrong tested positive for an illegal drug at the 1999 Tour de France) revealed that Mariano Puerta, a finalist at this year's French Open, tested positive for a banned substance during the tournament. So far, no other information has been revealed, as it is the ITF's and ATP's policy not to comment on any doping case until wrongdoing is confirmed.

But to be on the safe side, if you enjoy watching Puerta play, I would try and catch as much of him as possible during the last few tournaments this fall. The Argentine is no stranger to doping controversy: In February 2003, he tested positive for clenbuterol, an anti-asthma medication that is prohibited by tennis because it's also a powerful anabolic agent that promotes muscle growth. Puerta was suspended for nine months and was warned that a second conviction would result in a lifetime ban.

Another highly ranked Argentine, Guillermo Canas -- the player Puerta defeated in the French Open quarterfinals on his way to the final -- was recently suspended for two years after he tested positive for the diuretic hydrochlorothiazide. Diuretics increase the urine production in the body and are banned because they're often used as masking agents for other, more substantial, prohibited substances.

I had a good laugh when I read some of Guillermo Coria's quotes a couple weeks ago. Apparently, in addition to being the world's No. 6-ranked player, Coria is also Argentina's communications ambassador. He took offense to the assertion that Argentine tennis has a tainted image, even though four of his country's top players (Puerta, Juan Ignacio Chela, Canas and Mr. Coria himself) have all tested positive for banned substances in the past four years. Coria was adamant that the stereotype was exaggerated and that they were being unduly criticized.

It's pretty amusing that Coria somehow twisted it around to make it sound like he's the victim. The real victims in these situations are the fans, the sport and the players on tour. We already know Canas was only allowed to compete at the French Open while appealing his positive test a few months prior. And if Puerta did indeed test positive, who knows who rightly deserved to be competing against Rafael Nadal for the title last June?

When we players hear about one of our own testing positive, we can't help but wonder if we're all competing on an even field; it's frustrating to think we might not be. There are always rumors, accusations and innuendos in every sport, and most of the time they are just that. I'm no conspiracy theorist, but I have to believe that cheaters will always be one step ahead of the testing process.

Hopefully more athletes getting caught will indicate the gap is closing. It's sad that there will always be some people out there who are willing to sacrifice everything, even their own health, to achieve more.

The most annoying parts of these doping scandals, in every sport, are the lame denials that inevitably come from every positive test. It sure would be refreshing if just once, the athlete who has muscles popping out of his eyeballs just fessed up and said, "You caught me. The truth is, I'd prefer to win a few more trophies than have functioning kidneys."

DhammaTiger
10-18-2005, 11:28 PM
I wonder how Gimelstopb would feel if he is accused of doping? In the case of Puerta, he shouldn't comment because Mariano hasn't been charged. When and if Mariano is charged and found guilty than he can make a comment but until then he should have the decency and professional courtesy to keep his mouth shut. As for his comments on the Willy Canas case, why doesn't he add that Canas has appealed to the Sports arbitration committee in Geneva and awaiting the verdict. I hope Canas wins his case and as for Mariano it's just a newsreport and nothing official. So, why bring up his name? In my opinion Gimelstob 's career is non existent and he just wants publicity for himself. In my opinion Coria has done the right thing by standing in defence of his friends.
I for one will expect and hope Mariano will make it to Shanghai.

Julio1974
10-18-2005, 11:39 PM
IS Gimelstob trying to sy that Argentina deserves the doping setereotype? What can I say about the US? Here we have some articles about doping and the US... I love the part where it says "They delight in pointing the finger at everyone else and do not acknowledge there is a US problem."

America wakes up to doping nightmare

By Tom Fordyce


Kelli White's two-year doping ban slipped almost unnoticed into the sports pages.


How the Balco scandal has tainted athletics


Enlarge Image


It shouldn't have done.

White's ban marks what could be a major turning-point in the attitude of the world's most powerful sporting nation towards doping.

And that change could mean that the team the USA sends to the Olympics is missing some of its biggest and best-known stars.

America is slowly waking up to the fact that, after years of criticising the rest of the world, the worst offender in the anti-doping war may be itself.

White, world champion over 100m and 200m, is the highest-profile name is to banned this year. But she is only the tip of what many believe to be a substantial iceberg.

Since last August, four Americans - world indoor 1500m champion Regina Jacobs, US shot put champion Kevin Toth and hammer throwers Melissa Price and John McEwen - have been revealed as testing positive for banned steroid THG.

Four more - hurdlers Sandra Glover, Eric Thomas and Chris Phillips and sprinter Chryste Gaines - had positive tests for banned stimulant modafinil made public.

Now Tim Montgomery, world 100m record holder, has received a letter from the US Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) alleging doping violations.

There may be more to come. The difference this year is that the world is actually hearing about it - and that the athletes in question will pay the price.

'Conspiracy of silence'

Until the THG scandal broke, the attitude of US authorities seemed to involve carpets and sweeping things under them.

Jerome Young, who won 400m gold at last summer's Worlds, tested positive for the banned steroid nandrolone in 1999 but was still allowed to compete in the 2000 Olympics, where he won gold as part of the 4x400m relay team.


White has been stripped of her 100m World gold

Young was one of 13 American athletes named by the Los Angeles Times as testing positive for drugs between 1996 and 2000 but whose names were not released by US Track and Field - a cover-up described by World Anti-Doping Agency chief Dick Pound as "a conspiracy of silence".

Meanwhile, Dr Wade Exum, former US Olympic Committee director for drug control, alleged last year that 19 American medallists - including Carl Lewis - were allowed to compete at the 1988 Olympics despite having earlier failed drugs tests.

But now White's ban indicates that the authorities have changed tack.

The anti-doping issue is now being taken so seriously that President Bush even made it part of his State of the Union address at the start of the year.

White was banned not because she actually tested positive for THG and EPO, but because the US Anti-Doping Agency had enough other evidence - doping schedules, emails detailing her drugs use - to convict her.

That means that other athletes - like Montgomery - could be banned from going to the Olympics even if they have never tested positive.

Compare this to the situation five years ago, when USTAF cleared sprinter Dennis Mitchell despite a positive test for testosterone, on the basis that Mitchell's elevated levels were the result of him enjoying sex with his wife at least four times and having drunk six bottles of beer the night before the test.

White the whistleblower

Nobody knows yet how badly the American Olympics team will be affected. But all the signs are that this story will only get bigger.

White has agreed to act as a whistleblower, telling USADA everything she knows about doping in the States. There is also the mountains of evidence gathered by the federal grand jury investigation into Balco, the company at the centre of the THG storm.

"I anticipate other athletes will be charged," said White, on accepting her ban.

As our graphic shows, Balco founder Victor Conte is at the centre of the latest batch of positive tests.

Conte, Balco vice-president James Valente, Dwain Chambers' former coach Remi Korchemny and Barry Bonds' personal trainer Greg Anderson have all been charged with supplying illegal performance-enhancing drugs to top sports competitors.

White, coached by Korchemny, has admitted taking a number of illegal drugs supplied by Balco. Chambers tested positive for THG in August last year.

Gaines, another coached by Korchemny, tested positive for modafinil. McEwen tested positive for both modafinil and THG, while Price, Toth and Jacobs also tested positive for THG, with Balco is widely believed to be the source of the steroid.

Marion Jones is the latest star to be dragged into the scandal.

She was one of the athletes called to testify in the grand jury investigation that resulted in the indictments, while it has been alleged that a $7,350 cheque from the sprinter's bank account was sent to Conte.


Jones has never tested positive for any banned substance

Jones' former husband, shot putter C.J. Hunter, is alleged to have signed that cheque.

Hunter tested positive for the banned steroid nandrolone four times before the 2000 Olympics, and it was Conte who appeared alongside him at a news conference in Sydney, claiming the test was a result of contaminated supplements.

Jones' lawyer Richard Nicholls told the BBC last week that the US anti-doping authorities do not have any proof to suggest that Jones ever took banned substances.

"The evidence they've given us I would not even characterise as evidence," said Nicholls. "It is weak."

Jones is also threatening to sue if she is prevented from taking part in the Athens Olympics without a failed drug test.

The pressure is now becoming intense on her current partner, Montgomery.

Both Jones and Montgomery were briefly coached by Ben Johnson's disgraced coach Charlie Francis before pressure from their sponsor Nike forced them to end the association.

Francis admitted in 1989 that he had encouraged Johnson, stripped of his gold medal at the 1988 Seoul Olympics for doping, and other athletes he coached to use steroids.

He also stated that the only way an athlete could be successful was to take drugs, and was banned from coaching Canadian athletes for life.

Clock ticking

So what happens next?

The US authorities do not have much time to act if they wish to ban other athletes from making the Olympic team.

The US athletics trials start on 9 July, with the team due to be named on 21 July. Any potential bans are also likely to be challenged in the courts by the athletes concerned.

But the USOC is determined that the team they send to Athens does not contain any athletes tainted by doping.

Last November, the World Anti-Doping Agency's Dick Pound said, "There is an extraordinary capacity for double-think in the US.

"They delight in pointing the finger at everyone else and do not acknowledge there is a US problem."

Finally, that seems to be changing.

DhammaTiger
10-19-2005, 12:13 AM
Julio1974,thank you for the great post! It seems that bashing Argentines is a great sport among some people. However, they should clean their own back yards before pointing fingers.

Fee
10-19-2005, 12:14 AM
Way to bring up a one year old article about a different sport. Of course there is doping in the US, baseball is famous/notorious for it, and worse, for letting it slide (perhaps before I die they will own up to it and take Barry Bonds out of the record books).

Justin won't be accused of doping because he does his paperwork (refer to his Wimbledon interview about standing in a doctor's office in a gown waiting for a faxed approval letter before getting his cortisone shot) and he doesn't take anything (refer to his body, he needs help). That column doesn't say anything that I did not hear from a variety of players and coaches at a Challenger last week. And the SI editors would not have published it if there was a problem with his facts (although I agree he should have been a heck of a lot more clear about Puerta's case).

Julio1974
10-19-2005, 12:23 AM
[QUOTE=Fee]Way to bring up a one year old article about a different sport. Of course there is doping in the US, baseball is famous/notorious for it, and worse, for letting it slide (perhaps before I die they will own up to it and take Barry Bonds out of the record books). QUOTE]

Of course there is,. But it would be wrong to stereotype and to conclude "all American baseball players are cheaters" or "all American track and field athletes are cheaters" or "all American swimmers are cheaters".

Gimelstob is criticising Coria for his comments on stereotyping. And I think Coria is right. Setereotyping is just wrong. By the way, Federer said the same as Coria. But I assume is more convenient to just quote Coria and omit what Federer said.

Last but not the least, you are wrong in concluding that Gimelstob won't be accusing of doping because he does his paperwork. You can be accused of doping even if you took contaminated products and you took every stepts to comply with doping regulations (read the tribunal's statements in the Coria's case).

By the way, why doesn't Gimelstob illustrate us about the seven doping cases that the ATP pulled under the carpet?

Too easy to point fingers

Fee
10-19-2005, 12:37 AM
Don't know. Perhaps Justin doesn't know who the 7 are or why they were hidden. You should ask him, and you can do that by filling out a feedback form at SI.com. He is doing what SI asked him to do, write a blog about tennis. Believe me, if he stopped doing it tomorrow, he probably wouldn't care that much.

Argentine tennis does have a tainted image because of these suspensions, but that doesn't mean the 'image' is the correct one. Personally, I disagree with it. Yes, a few players from one country have been caught, but all of the offenses were different and there was no indication that the individual players received encouragement or whatever from the federation. I think it is completely wrong for the media and other types (including posters on this forum) to paint every Argentine player this way.

Julio1974
10-19-2005, 12:43 AM
Don't know. Perhaps Justin doesn't know who the 7 are or why they were hidden. You should ask him, and you can do that by filling out a feedback form at SI.com. He is doing what SI asked him to do, write a blog about tennis. Believe me, if he stopped doing it tomorrow, he probably wouldn't care that much.

Argentine tennis does have a tainted image because of these suspensions, but that doesn't mean the 'image' is the correct one. Personally, I disagree with it. Yes, a few players from one country have been caught, but all of the offenses were different and there was no indication that the individual players received encouragement or whatever from the federation. I think it is completely wrong for the media and other types (including posters on this forum) to paint every Argentine player this way.

I agree with you that Argentine tennis has now a tainted image. It would be foolish to deny that. I also think that Argentina should do something about this because we certainly have a problem. But it's unfair to jump to the conclusion that every single Argentine player is a doper or a would-be doper. That's stereotyping. And that's what Coria is combatting.

Fee
10-19-2005, 01:00 AM
Fair points, but Coria may not be the best person to speak up on this issue. Or maybe he is in some ways. The ATP has been one big wet noodle on this issue for years and they need to grow a spine and get their shit together.

jacobhiggins
10-19-2005, 01:33 AM
Not all Argentine players are cheaters but there country is not being singled out, they have the reputation for a reason, there players are the ones that keep getting caught with illegal substances! Willing or not Willing, Argentine has a serious problem with there tennis deparment, no other country is like theres!

revolution
10-19-2005, 05:01 PM
I see nothing wrong with Gimelstob's piece, also he hasn't actually accused Puerta of doing it, he's just saying that if he is guilty then this year's RG would have been damaged, which is the case. I still don't think he is guilty mind you.

tangerine_dream
10-19-2005, 05:06 PM
Of course there is,. But it would be wrong to stereotype and to conclude "all American baseball players are cheaters" or "all American track and field athletes are cheaters" or "all American swimmers are cheaters".
Roids ruining baseball, I can definitely agree with that. But the US track and field junkies are no worse than the Canadian junkies :p

I'm mostly curious as to where this rumor about the US swimmers being drug dirty came from? Our Olympic swimmers have been pretty clean, unlike the Chinese and East European swimmers. Did I miss something? (ps, I'm not being a smartass this time, I really want to know :) )

Jogy
10-19-2005, 07:04 PM
Thank for blog, Gimbelstob.

TennisLurker
10-19-2005, 09:30 PM
I didnt know Dog was a verb too

Julio1974
10-21-2005, 01:13 PM
Nice words from Ferrer. He said he believed in Puerta's innocence. The Spanish public also supproted Mariano. He was very grateful.

MADRID (DPA).- "Creo en su inocencia y en que no hay doping, pero en el caso de que lo haya, creo que ha sido un despiste y no para mejorar su tenis, porque le sobra para estar arriba", dijo con contundencia el español David Ferrer, N° 14 de la Carrera de los Campeones y 18° del Ranking de Acceso, sobre Mariano Puerta, que es apuntado por un presunto doping en Roland Garros.

Ferrer, que este año tiene un récord favorable ante los argentinos de 8-5, venció ayer al cordobés por segunda vez en el año (en igual cantidad de partidos) por 6-7 (5-7), 6-1 y 6-4.

En tanto, Puerta, que anteayer elogió el funcionamiento del programa antidoping del tenis, ayer prefirió no volver al asunto y dejó otra frase: "Eso lo saben los directivos. No estoy tan en el tema como para opinar".

Unos instantes más tarde, el argentino, casi sin quererlo, confesó: "No estoy de ánimo para hablar".

Al menos, ayer se llevó el caluroso aplauso del público en la cancha central del Madrid Arena. "La reacción de la gente fue muy emocionante. Fueron muy cariñosos", dijo agradecido Puerta, que manifestó que seguirá luchando por un lugar en el Masters: "Voy a jugar en Lyon y en París. Mi idea es ir a Shanghai, incluso como suplente".

DhammaTiger
10-21-2005, 01:53 PM
Thank you Julio1974 for posting Ferrer and Mariano's comments. It's wonderful to see that David is showing solidarity with his fellow tennis professional. I saw how David and Mariano greeted each other after the end of the match at the net. It was not just a perfunctory handshake but what appeared to me to be to be genuine warmth. Also the Spanish public were equally warm in their applause for Mariano. I am sure that the attitude of most players on the tour is similar to Ferrer's , fair and supportive towards Mariano. This fact must in itself be giving him the confidence and morale boost to continue despite the negative publicity generated from the L' Equipe article. I wish some posters on this board will take the same attitude as David's.

gooner88
10-21-2005, 02:22 PM
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,5205-1835354,00.html

Puerta going through motions as career hangs in the balance

From Neil Harman, Tennis Correspondent, in Madrid

IT IS the best of times, the worst of times. Mariano Puerta is a top-ten player as never before, marked by his debut in a grand-slam final, and yet he is playing beneath a fog of suspicion that ought to choke his every move. His career hangs in the air through an outrageous act of name-dropping and there is nothing that he can do about it until, or if, exoneration comes.
Puerta has been going through the motions since, a fortnight ago, he was named in an article in L’Équipe, the French sports paper, for having “failed” a doping test for etilefrine, a prohibited stimulant. That the paper was so convinced of its facts and felt moved to print when Puerta’s anonymity should have been protected until the case came before the proper authorities suggests that they were told much too much.



All the 27-year-old Argentinian can do is privately protest his innocence and publicly repeat that he cannot answer questions because it is in the hands of his lawyers. One thing he will reveal is intriguing — “it is a fact that none of the players feels safe because the tests are very strict. But the law is equal for everyone,” he said.

But if he is indeed the culprit, as a second-time offender, the sentence is mandatory — no more tennis, ever.

That he could yet qualify for the Masters Cup in Shanghai next month, that he has been able to play freely for five months while the doping process took its interminable course, that he was bounding across the Madrid Arena yesterday — ultimately in vain as David Ferrer, of Spain, defeated the sixth seed 6-7, 6-1, 6-4 in the Madrid Masters — all leaves an acidic taste.

There are those players who think that as soon as he was named, Puerta should have stepped aside and let the process take its course, for if he is found guilty, what did beating him or losing to him really amount to? It is a desperately unsatisfactory state of affairs.

Juan Ignacio Chela, one of the six players from his country to have been fined and banned for doping offences in the past five years, said: “It is hard to be an Argentinian.”

David Nalbandian, the 2002 Wimbledon finalist and present world No 9, takes a deep breath when the subject is raised. It is a struggle to find the right words. “I am a very proud Argentinian,” Nalbandian said on reaching the quarter-finals yesterday. “All the cases are different and I do not know why it is the Argentinians so often. It is not easy to talk to the person (in this case Puerta) and say ‘what is going on?’ because he does not know the truth, perhaps. I know players from my country have become big players very quickly, and we have an organisation (the Argentine Federation) at home that is a step back.”

Puerta concurs with Nalbandian on the federation issue. “Argentina is a humble country that doesn’t have the (federation’s) support as other countries might have,” he said. “Our economy is weaker and the country is suffering. We don’t have the resources that countries who have grand slams like Britain and France do.”

Is it possible that a federation without sufficient financial resources has cut corners when it comes to the provision of medical expertise that its professional players rely upon? It is a perilous thought if true, but still no excuse for making career-threatening errors when it comes to being responsible for what you are ingesting, for the bottom line in all these cases is that the athlete is ultimately culpable.

Given that last year, when Stefan Koubek, of Austria, was found to have committed a doping offence at the French Open and the decision was not made public until December, both Puerta and the sport have at least a month more of not knowing precisely what the truth is. That is a scandal that all the forces in the sport should be doing their utmost to put right.

star
10-21-2005, 02:47 PM
I didnt know Dog was a verb too

Well, it is. :) :) :)