Clay Play: Exactly who are the major threats? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Clay Play: Exactly who are the major threats?

prima donna
10-03-2005, 03:36 PM
Just exactly who on clay has proven to be a dominant force or force to be reckoned with other than Nadal ? What competition is there ?
Gustavo Kuerten - Had his career ended by hip injuries, the man will never be the same and yes, he is the man.
Juan Carlos Ferrero - Injuries have bothered him and only now is he starting to regain the form which won him Roland Garros in 2003.
Guillermo Coria - Has not been the same since his 2004 choke job to Gaston Gaudio.
Mariano Puerta - Give me a break.
Nalbandian - Has been injured, last I checked he's an all-surface player, kinda M.I.A.
Gaston Gaudio - One word: FLUKE.
Federer - Refuses to devote himself to the Clay Court season, which is year-around, only playing 2-3 tournaments which are on Clay; prefers to defend Wimbledon title.

There is a serious lack of parity going on, there are really no players that can pose any type of threat to Nadal at the present time. Coria is the only force to be reckoned with and his head is still scattered from having his dream crushed by a nobody with hair that would make even the likes of Andy Murray shutter with disgust.

The question is:
Where is the competition ? Where is the Borg, the Vilas ? Where are the Kuerten or Brugera's of the world ? I could make an argument even if Fedex were to win Roland Garros, the competition is so weak that really does it even say much ?

The point is:

Would Nadal reign supreme over Clay if:
Kuerten were healthy.
Juan Carlos had never been sidelined with injuries.
If Marat Safin, a perfectly capable clay court player were healthy.
If Coria had been in form this year.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda, that's all hindsight, but I question the quality of Clay Court success this year, what made me bring up this discussion is a post in the 2006: atp restore thread with regard to there BEING no one to challenge other than Coria.

That's a good point, it's unfortunate that the real King Of Clay is missing. Sadly, this generation has yet to produce a rivalry like Muster vs Brugera on clay (muster wins 12-3, but each match was closely contested) , now there's a match. It's quite easy to pick apart the likes of Sebastian Grojean, Gonzalez. The usual defensive retrievers, where are the big boys on Clay ?

skel1983
10-03-2005, 03:52 PM
I think when someone dominates, there is always excuses why?? what if?? etc etc.

Nadal would destroy anyone on Clay if he is playing his best tennis (which he will he plays every point as if it was his last.)

Like i said before Federer has the best chance if his game clicks on the occasion against Nadal, but Nadal plays so many balls, Federer would need to have no unforced errors, which is pretty difficult with the amount of shots he has to play against Nadal.

Safin is a decent clay courter, but he is similar to Federer he likes to keep the points short and that won't happen against Nadal, Nadal will make him play to many balls, and eventully beat him comfortably.

Coria in his prime???? Coria maybe will improve a little but Nadal is now to good for Coria. Ferrero will never beat nadal on clay again ( has he ever beat him??) In his prime my money would be on Nadal, Guga, this is a difficult one it would be hard to pick a winner, but i would still fancy Nadal to beat Guga at his best.

Experimentee
10-03-2005, 04:05 PM
Another Nadal bashing thread in disguise :rolleyes:

alfonsojose
10-03-2005, 04:06 PM
Agassi will win RG in 2006 :rocker2:

revolution
10-03-2005, 04:12 PM
Nadal should wipe the floor with all on clay really, only all surface dudes Fed and Safin at their best could really challenge him.

ys
10-03-2005, 04:16 PM
Seriously.. I don't even care.. Clay has become a joke surface with flukers taking over it.. It's impossible for sport's superstars to keep their focus on RG when the biggest event of the sport is just around a corner.. As the racket technology turned an already big difference between two surfaces into a huge gap, the RG becomes more and more of a second tier Slam.. Next year? Roger will be shooting for 4th straight Wimbledon which would put him next to Sampras and Borg.. Do you expect him to risk that lifetime opportunity for clay? I don't think he'll really bother..

prima donna
10-03-2005, 04:16 PM
Kuerten's 1st Roland Garros:
R128 Dosedel, Slava (CZE ) 73 6-0 7-5 6-1
R64 Bjorkman, Jonas (SWE ) 23 6-4 6-2 4-6 7-5
R32 Muster, Thomas (AUT ) 5 6-7(3) 6-1 6-3 3-6 6-4
R16 Medvedev, Andrei (UKR ) 20 5-7 6-1 6-2 1-6 7-5
Q Kafelnikov, Yevgeny (RUS ) 3 6-2 5-7 2-6 6-0 6-4
S Dewulf, Filip (BEL ) 122 6-1 3-6 6-1 7-6(4)
W Bruguera, Sergi (ESP ) 19 6-3 6-4 6-2
2nd:
R128 Vinciguerra, Andreas (SWE ) 42 6-0 6-0 6-3
R64 Charpentier, Marcelo (ARG ) N/A 7-6(5) 6-2 6-2
R32 Chang, Michael (USA ) 44 6-3 6-7(11) 6-1 6-4
R16 Lapentti, Nicolas (ECU ) 15 6-3 6-4 7-6(4)
Q Kafelnikov, Yevgeny (RUS ) 4 6-3 3-6 4-6 6-4 6-2
S Ferrero, Juan Carlos (ESP ) 11 7-5 4-6 2-6 6-4 6-3
W Norman, Magnus (SWE ) 1 6-2 6-3 2-6 7-6(6)

--- Look at this competition, where are the Kafelnikov's ? Hello ? Any accomplished clay courters out there ?

Muster's resume:
1995 - One hell of a year

Competition:
W Bruguera, Sergi (ESP ) 7 3-6 7-6(5) 6-2 6-3 - Rome
W Chang, Michael (USA ) 6 7-5 6-2 6-4 - Roland Garros
W Ulihrach, Bohdan (CZE ) 68 6-3 3-6 6-1 - Austria
W Costa, Carlos (ESP ) 46 3-6 7-6(5) 6-4 - Croatia
W Gaudenzi, Andrea (ITA ) 25 6-2 6-0
W Schaller, Gilbert (AUT ) 25 6-3 6-4
W Washington, MaliVai (USA ) 54 7-6(6) 2-6 6-3 6-4

Bruguera, Chang, Cosa & Washington - We're talking Top Notch & high quality players & all of these with the exception of the Malivai final came on Clay.

1995--Barcelona, Bucharest, Essen, Estoril, Mexico City, Monte Carlo, Roland Garros, Rome, San Marino, St. Poelten, Stuttgart Outdoor, Umag; 1996--Barcelona, Bogota, Estoril, Mexico City, Monte Carlo, Rome, Stuttgart Outdoor;

Dominance on clay against the best in the world.

prima donna
10-03-2005, 04:19 PM
Another Nadal bashing thread in disguise :rolleyes:
No, let's examine the level of play. It's not like, Nadal dethroned a healthy Kuerten to become King Of Clay, it was there for the taking after Coria crumbled apart; unlike Federer whom charged in at 2001 Wimbledon & took Sampras's streak and pride from him to become ruler on Grass.

No bashing here. That's not in my nature. Just healthy questioning.

Julio1974
10-03-2005, 04:26 PM
Seriously.. I don't even care.. Clay has become a joke surface with flukers taking over it.. It's impossible for sport's superstars to keep their focus on RG when the biggest event of the sport is just around a corner.. As the racket technology turned an already big difference between two surfaces into a huge gap, the RG becomes more and more of a second tier Slam.. Next year? Roger will be shooting for 4th straight Wimbledon which would put him next to Sampras and Borg.. Do you expect him to risk that lifetime opportunity for clay? I don't think he'll really bother..

To be put next to Borg, he will need to win several times RG....

ys
10-03-2005, 04:28 PM
To be put next to Borg, he will need to win several times RG....

Several US Opens will do just fine as a replacement, they'll do even better.. As he does beat some superstars in those USO finals, not some obscure claycourters..

Julio1974
10-03-2005, 04:32 PM
Several US Opens will do just fine as a replacement, they'll do even better.. As he does beat some superstars in those USO finals, not some obscure claycourters..

If you are calling Nadal "some obscure claycourter" I remind you he is the #2 player of the world... But I agre with you. There is no point in trying to beat him on clay. He'll never do it. He'd better prepare for Wimbledon.

cecilija
10-03-2005, 04:37 PM
all threads which cite nadal are nadal bashing threads ??? :rolleyes: :retard:Another Nadal bashing thread in disguise :rolleyes:

cecilija
10-03-2005, 04:38 PM
this is a great thread miskinalova
u make a great job :)

ys
10-03-2005, 04:39 PM
If you are calling Nadal "some obscure claycourter" I remind you he is the #2 player of the world...

No question about it. He had a phenomenal year and is #2 player in the world. He is a slowcourt #1 in the world and it is rather unfortunate for him that slow courts are only 40% of the whole circuit and and only include 6 big events out of total of 14. And also that Federer is miles better on slow surfaces than Nadal is on fast surfaces.. Federer is clear #2-#3 on slow surfaces , while Nadal is not even Top 5 on fast surfaces.

But each of last 4 RG finals featured "some obscure claycourter", that has never come close to repeating it or making any significant impact on other surface. Costa, Verkerk, Gaudio, Puerta.. Those are whom I call "obscure claycourters".. Not Nadal, of course. That's what makes RG a second Tier Slam right now..

Chloe le Bopper
10-03-2005, 04:59 PM
No, let's examine the level of play. It's not like, Nadal dethroned a healthy Kuerten to become King Of Clay, it was there for the taking after Coria crumbled apart; unlike Federer whom charged in at 2001 Wimbledon & took Sampras's streak and pride from him to become ruler on Grass.

No bashing here. That's not in my nature. Just healthy questioning.
There is absolutely nothing healthy about your posting. You're so into the bashing that you often even mess your "facts" up :shrug:

Where is the competition ? Where is the Borg, the Vilas ? Where are the Kuerten or Brugera's of the world ? I could make an argument even if Fedex were to win Roland Garros, the competition is so weak that really does it even say much ?

Did it ever occur to anybody that he's the "next" Kuerten in terms of clay? He's already had a better single clay season than Kuerten did :shrug: No, it probably didn't occur to you.

Frankly, I don't think that Kuerten's RG lineups will look that much more impressive than Nadal's did this year... given a few years. People will look back and see that he beat Gasquet and Federer. And that will be enough said :)

ys
10-03-2005, 05:03 PM
Did it ever occur to anybody that he's the "next" Kuerten in terms of clay? He's already had a better single clay season than Kuerten did :shrug: No, it probably didn't occur to you.

Frankly, I don't think that Kuerten's RG lineups will look that much more impressive than Nadal's did this year... given a few years. People will look back and see that he beat Gasquet and Federer. And that will be enough said :)

Kuerten beat at least one former RG champ in all of his 3 RGs.. And Kuerten had a beautiful aggressive game on clay..

Chloe le Bopper
10-03-2005, 05:05 PM
Kuerten beat at least one former RG champ in all of his 3 RGs.. And Kuerten had a beautiful aggressive game on clay..
I'm not dismissing what Kuerten did :)

PaulieM
10-03-2005, 07:22 PM
There is no point in trying to beat him on clay. He'll never do it. He'd better prepare for Wimbledon.
i don't get how people feel they can say that with such certainty. anything can happen, nobody is unbeatable.


oh and i'm amazed that myskinalova somehow only has 89 posts with all the threads he posts :confused:

revolution
10-03-2005, 07:25 PM
Another difference with clay is that it's the same players reaching the latter stages in each tournament (Nadal, Gaudio etc), whilst in other surfaces you get the odd surprise (see Andy's Thailand run).

The next clay star to emerge will be Juan Del Potro.

Rafa = Fed Killa
10-03-2005, 10:28 PM
MyskinaLova are all your threads about how Nadal was lucky. He hasn't beaten anyone good. Do u hate him so much because he beat your "God" Fed at RG.

prima donna
10-03-2005, 10:40 PM
MyskinaLova are all your threads about how Nadal was lucky. He hasn't beaten anyone good. Do u hate him so much because he beat your "God" Fed at RG.
No, actually, they aren't. Maybe 3 threads involve his name at all.

I don't think he was lucky, I think he's the product of clay play being on the downslope and an injured Top 5.

This isn't personal, if you ask me he does not even play what I consider tennis, it's contra-tennis. (See Roger Federer interview after U.S Open 2003 loss to Nalbandian for further usage of the term)

I've said this before, Nadal does not play a respectable and appropriate game. Moonballs, the epitome of blue-collar tennis. A disgrace to those that made it so graceful, charisma and finesse do not belong in the same sentence as Nadal. That is what I will say negatively about him.

I love Gasquet and Gasquet beat Roger, what beautiful strokes the youngster has! His shots, wow absolutely mind-blowing

Rafa = Fed Killa
10-03-2005, 10:42 PM
Not everyone plays the same style of tennis.
So you are not a fan of players who hustle, chase down balls and use top spin.
Do you like Hewiit? Coria?

AgassiDomination
10-03-2005, 10:42 PM
Agassi will win RG in 2006 :rocker2:

:devil: :worship:

prima donna
10-03-2005, 10:45 PM
Not everyone plays the same style of tennis.
So you are not a fan of players who hustle, chase down balls and use top spin.
Do you like Hewiit? Coria?


I love finesse and beautiful tennis play! It's better to lose pretty than to win ugly. That's the way I feel.

I like Coria, but not because of his tennis. I admire him making it to where he has at 5'9" (barely) and 140lbs when he came on tour, he's a magician on the court. Nadal is 6'1 and nearly 190lbs, yet you'd think that from his game he has a 150lbs body... constant defense and moonballs. It's simply atrocious...

Hewitt has the ugliest game in the world, but I like his cocky attitude. Makes for good entertainment, I've found myself actually saying C'mon mate during matches and I'm an Italian. :D

Rafa = Fed Killa
10-03-2005, 10:48 PM
Well thats where I have different tastes.
I like people who win with their heart and show some emotion.
ie. Nadal, Hewiit, Coria

AgassiDomination
10-03-2005, 10:51 PM
Hewitt :rocker2:

Mechlan
10-03-2005, 11:09 PM
You can only play whoever is in front of you. And given the amount he's played on clay this year, I think he's faced and beaten just about everyone who's proficient on the surface. That should be enough. Enough of this nonsense about players not being as dominant as they appear due to a lack of depth.

Merton
10-03-2005, 11:50 PM
I've said this before, Nadal does not play a respectable and appropriate game. Moonballs, the epitome of blue-collar tennis. A disgrace to those that made it so graceful, charisma and finesse do not belong in the same sentence as Nadal. That is what I will say negatively about him.

Just for the record, i assume that you know the difference between moonballing and topspin and you just enjoy using high prose, like "blue-collar tennis".

prima donna
10-04-2005, 12:05 AM
Just for the record, i assume that you know the difference between moonballing and topspin and you just enjoy using high prose, like "blue-collar tennis".
Sure, I'm not the first and won't be the last to label Nadal a 21st Century moonballer .... :D

*Viva Chile*
10-04-2005, 12:10 AM
No question about it. He had a phenomenal year and is #2 player in the world. He is a slowcourt #1 in the world and it is rather unfortunate for him that slow courts are only 40% of the whole circuit and and only include 6 big events out of total of 14. And also that Federer is miles better on slow surfaces than Nadal is on fast surfaces.. Federer is clear #2-#3 on slow surfaces , while Nadal is not even Top 5 on fast surfaces.

But each of last 4 RG finals featured "some obscure claycourter", that has never come close to repeating it or making any significant impact on other surface. Costa, Verkerk, Gaudio, Puerta.. Those are whom I call "obscure claycourters".. Not Nadal, of course. That's what makes RG a second Tier Slam right now..

Do you consider that a low porcentage of the whole circuit??? :rolleyes:

wowfed
10-04-2005, 12:17 AM
Just exactly who on clay has proven to be a dominant force or force to be reckoned with other than Nadal ? What competition is there ?
Gustavo Kuerten - Had his career ended by hip injuries, the man will never be the same and yes, he is the man.
Juan Carlos Ferrero - Injuries have bothered him and only now is he starting to regain the form which won him Roland Garros in 2003.
Guillermo Coria - Has not been the same since his 2004 choke job to Gaston Gaudio.
Mariano Puerta - Give me a break.
Nalbandian - Has been injured, last I checked he's an all-surface player, kinda M.I.A.
Gaston Gaudio - One word: FLUKE.
Federer - Refuses to devote himself to the Clay Court season, which is year-around, only playing
2-3 tournaments which are on Clay; prefers to defend Wimbledon title.

If Nadal were to loose in a earlier round at RG, the only player I would put my money to win is Federer.
I don't know whats going on with Guga. I don't see him reaching the level of his RG winning days.
JCF is coming back slowly but is too inconsistent at the moment. Even Fed will take him down at RG if he is playing at the same level as now.
Coria-Ok but don't think he has displayed that killer instinct to win big titles.
Puerta,Nalbandian , Gaudio - Give me a break..



The question is:
Where is the competition ? Where is the Borg, the Vilas ? Where are the Kuerten or Brugera's of the world ? I could make an argument even if Fedex were to win Roland Garros, the competition is so weak that really does it even say much ?

There is not many challengers or competition right now who can topple Nadal at RG. Only Coria has been able to stretch Nadal to 5 sets at Montecarlo and Rome finals.Like I said he hasn't displayed the killer instinct to complete the big titles.



Federer - Refuses to devote himself to the Clay Court season, which is year-around, only playing
2-3 tournaments which are on Clay; prefers to defend Wimbledon title.

Like I said if Nadal looses in a earlier round then Fed has a golden chance to take RG. But who knows some new Spaniard/Argentine could jump out of the blue and take the title too. And I don't see Fed devoting himself for the clay court season. He has more chance at Wimby than on clay events. More over he has the golden chance of equalling Sampras 4 consecutive titles at Wimby. He woundn't wanna jinx it for the world..

Duncan
10-04-2005, 12:22 AM
Im going for Fed to win RG in 2006

he will avoid Nadal until the final and Fed just never loses in finals :D

wowfed
10-04-2005, 12:29 AM
Im going for Fed to win RG in 2006
he will avoid Nadal until the final and Fed just never loses in finals :D
That sounds like a good wishful thinking. I would be thrilled if it happens. My only worry is if Nadal also reaches the finals....Nadal seems to be having everything on earth to win RG.

Rafa = Fed Killa
10-04-2005, 12:42 AM
Fed is unbeatable in finals but Nadal is more unbeatable on clay.
Therefore Nadal over Fed in 06 RG final.
Streak ends at around 29. :)

Flibbertigibbet
10-04-2005, 12:51 AM
Fed is unbeatable in finals but Nadal is more unbeatable on clay.
Therefore Nadal over Fed in 06 RG final.
Streak ends at around 29. :)

Well, 29 works (though 30'd be more even), considering the previous record holders had only 12, and they were two of the greatest players in the game. :)

But anyhow, you can make the same case that Federer is winning because of a lack of depth in men's tennis as a whole as you could that Nadal is winning on clay due to the lack of depth in 'clay-court' tennis players. Both are inaccurate, but people'll continue to make the assumptions.

wowfed
10-04-2005, 01:17 AM
Fed is unbeatable in finals but Nadal is more unbeatable on clay.
Therefore Nadal over Fed in 06 RG final.
Streak ends at around 29. :)
Whats this 29. Is it the number of straight finals that Fed is gonna win?

Grinder
10-04-2005, 02:26 AM
There are several tough playerscourters that can give Nadal trouble on clay. Some of them are David Ferrer, Richard Gaquet, Tomas Berdych, Guillermo Coria, Novak Djokovic (from when I saw his match against Coria), Nicolas Almagro, just to name a few.

Until Nadal ends the year at number 1, he has not had a better single year than Guga.

prima donna
10-04-2005, 02:31 AM
Fed is unbeatable in finals but Nadal is more unbeatable on clay.
Therefore Nadal over Fed in 06 RG final.
Streak ends at around 29. :)
I wouldn't quite go that far, Roger has been dominating for nearly 2 years, Nadal had 1 good clay court season; therefore, it's completely irresponsible of you to make such a remark.

Rafa = Fed Killa
10-04-2005, 07:21 AM
Fed's finals streak at 24.
Nadal clay streak at a lot more. :D

Action Jackson
10-04-2005, 07:26 AM
Any thread that has a majority of posts by MyskinaLova and ys can only be of the absolute highest quality that should be nominated at the fledgling Smithsonian Research Institute into the greater good and benefit of tennis on a global scale.

oneandonlyhsn
10-04-2005, 07:30 AM
Another difference with clay is that it's the same players reaching the latter stages in each tournament (Nadal, Gaudio etc), whilst in other surfaces you get the odd surprise (see Andy's Thailand run).

The next clay star to emerge will be Juan Del Potro.

Vamos Del Potro :bounce:

Chloe le Bopper
10-04-2005, 07:53 AM
Until Nadal ends the year at number 1, he has not had a better single year than Guga.

I don't think that I said he had a better single year (although that can probably be debated, it's not a point which I seek to make). I said that he had a better single clay season.

However, I would disagree with your statement in general. It is certainly possible to have a better year overall (more titles, more wins, etc) than a player who has previously ended the season number 1, but not end the year number 1 yourself.

Castafiore
10-04-2005, 09:24 AM
It is certainly possible to have a better year overall (more titles, more wins, etc) than a player who has previously ended the season number 1, but not end the year number 1 yourself.
Exactly, you can't just simply compare numbers here:
player X has been the number 1 player and player Y has not
conclusion: player X > player Y.

This is a quote from a tv interview Nadal did a couple of days ago in Mallorca:
Question: Rafa, you are number 2 now, but other years Moya and Ferrero have been number one with less points than you have got now. But as Federer is there, is that not a bit fustrating for you? Will you never be number 1 while Federer is around? Is he so good?

Rafa: Yes, he is very good. He never loses. He's only lost 3 matches this year, he just never fails. It's a bit of bad luck for me, because maybe if he wasn't there or if it was a different year I'd be number one. But I'm satisfied with what I'm doing. I have ambition. I want to get it and I'll fight until I achieve what I want, and that's to be number 1.
Ifs, buts and what ifs do not count but having an amazing number 1 player can do two things to the other players:
It can either hold them back in a "why bother?" way or it can motivate the other players to improve even more and to try to get to an higher level.

silverwhite
10-04-2005, 10:21 AM
Im going for Fed to win RG in 2006

he will avoid Nadal until the final and Fed just never loses in finals :D

Federer vs Nadal at RG 2006 is a mouthwatering prospect. :eek:

ys
10-04-2005, 02:31 PM
Any thread that has a majority of posts by MyskinaLova and ys can only be of the absolute highest quality

But your presence would always help to compensate..

revolution
10-04-2005, 02:32 PM
But your presence would always help to compensate..


:haha: :haha: :haha:

Leo
10-04-2005, 02:43 PM
"Only now is [Ferrero] starting to regain the form which won him Roland Garros in 2003."

I've been hearing this exact same thing said month after month. :sad:

Not enough interest in reading the rest of the thread.

Leo
10-04-2005, 02:45 PM
Fed is unbeatable in finals but Nadal is more unbeatable on clay.
Therefore Nadal over Fed in 06 RG final.
Streak ends at around 29. :)

Only 5 more titles between now and Roland Garros 2006 for Federer? Interestiiiing.

AgassiDomination
10-04-2005, 04:07 PM
I'd say the top competitors for clay would be the usual suspects, not enough new faces on clay to consider other people really...