Is the ATP targetting certain countries for drug testing? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Is the ATP targetting certain countries for drug testing?

Margy
09-28-2005, 05:03 AM
After looking at the following table for the 2004 ATP drug testing,

http://www.atptennis.com/en/antidoping/stats.asp

it's amazing to see how they seem to focus on players from certain countries for testing. If people think that the Argentine players are being unfairly targeted, look at poor Spain.

The table shows that most players are tested by the ATP once or twice a year. A much smaller number get tested more than that. The most anyone was tested in 2004 was 5 times.

But here is where it gets interesting. What countries are the players from that get tested more than twice?

There were 11 countries that had only 1 player tested more than twice.
There were 5 countries that had only 2 players tested more than twice.

Then:
Switzerland had 3 players each tested 3 times.
Germany had 2 players tested 3 times and 2 players tested 4 times.
Italy had 4 players tested 3 times and 1 player tested 4 times.

Here it comes.......
Argentina had 7 players tested 3 times and 2 players tested 4 times.
Spain had 10 players tested 3 times, 3 players tested 4 times, and 3 players tested 5 times.

Looking at those numbers, statistics will tell you that we should expect to "catch" a lot more "cheaters" from Argentina and Spain than from anywhere else.

Is the ATP testing schedule supposed to be random or do they deliberately pick individuals for testing? Do Argentina and Spain have a valid case that they are being targetted?

There is another table that shows all testing (ATP, ITF, and Blood testing) both in and out of competition, for the top 50 players. I haven't gone through that one exhaustively but it does show other oddities such as the fact that while some (Roddick and Moya) are tested as many as 9 times, others (Dent) aren't tested at all. Here is the link for that

http://www.atptennis.com/en/common/TrackIt.asp?file=/en/antidoping/top50.pdf

El Legenda
09-28-2005, 05:09 AM
well of course they will keep testing the players from Argentina cuz they keeping testing positive.

Margy
09-28-2005, 05:11 AM
well of course they will keep testing the players from Argentina cuz they keeping testing positive.

Does Spain also have a history of player violations?

Chloe le Bopper
09-28-2005, 05:13 AM
Without even looking at the table, I'm going to guess that perhaps ranking has something to do with how many times you are tested? That is to say, if you're highly ranked, you're more likely to progress further in tournaments and get tested. I could be mistaken. As I said, I didn't look. But it would make a lot of sense.

Margy
09-28-2005, 05:23 AM
Without even looking at the table, I'm going to guess that perhaps ranking has something to do with how many times you are tested? That is to say, if you're highly ranked, you're more likely to progress further in tournaments and get tested. I could be mistaken. As I said, I didn't look. But it would make a lot of sense.


Well, it doesn't really appear to be that. For example of the 16 Spaniards that were heavily tested there were a half-dozen I never heard of while Nadal and Ferrero were not there. As a matter of fact, at a quick glance, the only 2004 top 10 players tested more than twice were Federer and Moya .

And only 4 total players were tested 5 times each. Three of those (Ferrer, Verdasco, and Portas) were from Spain. The only other one was Thomas Johansson from Sweden.

Chloe le Bopper
09-28-2005, 05:24 AM
Thanks for clarifying that.

Haute
09-28-2005, 05:32 AM
As long as their results come back negative is there anything wrong with them being tested that many times?

Chloe le Bopper
09-28-2005, 05:33 AM
As long as their results come back negative is there anything wrong with them being tested that many times?
There is something wrong with targetting particular nations, yes. However, I don't see anything wrong with targetting particular individuals with past suspensions.

Haute
09-28-2005, 05:36 AM
When a lot of top players from one country have tested positive just within a few years, I think the ATP has every right to test their players more because it's highly suspicious for that many players to test positive one after the other. At that point it isn't a matter of just individual players, but that country's tennis federation should be scrutinized as well.

Chloe le Bopper
09-28-2005, 05:47 AM
When a lot of top players from one country have tested positive just within a few years, I think the ATP has every right to test their players more because it's highly suspicious for that many players to test positive one after the other. At that point it isn't a matter of just individual players, but that country's tennis federation should be scrutinized as well.
I don't entirely disagree. Let me rephrase that: I think there is something wrong with targetting particular nations without justifiable reason :p

That said, I'm not even sure that is the case here.

And I'm still not sure that somebody who has never tested positive should have to deal with heavier testing because some of their countrymen have been guilty.

Haute
09-28-2005, 05:51 AM
True, but then if they're innocent they shouldn't have a problem with the testing, should they? ;)

Breaker
09-28-2005, 06:00 AM
Where's Puerta? It'd be interesting to see how many times he has been tested this year, considering his previous issues and his improved performances this year

Baseline
09-28-2005, 07:19 AM
ATP has a table specifically for top 50 players and the numbers of tests I found in the one for 2004 are higher than those posted above, e.g. 9 for Moya, Robredo, and Roddick. What causes the ATP to test Roddick 9 times, but Agassi only 4 e.g.? (increase perhaps from adding urine to blood tests?)

Someone who is guilty has no grounds to complain about being tested, and someone who is innocent perhaps no need to worry, but what about players who were not tested at all, or tested so infrequently who knows if they are doping? What is the grounds for that? If the ATP wanted to choose scapegoats they could easily by selectively testing some of the players they have good reason to suspect are doping. The ones they target are guilty, but so are many others they decided not to target.

By listing these names BTW, I am not trying to target anyone, or make any insuations or accusations, or bash any of them. I am just listing some who show with few or no tests. I don't understand the reason they aren't tested as often. I have no reason to think infrequent tests are equated with guilt of any kind, I just wonder why some players aren't tested as much as others?

Dent = 0
Novak = 1
Horna = 2
Rusedski = 2
J. Johansson = 2

The ATP Table for top 50 players - tests in 2004

http://www.atptennis.com/en/common/TrackIt.asp?file=/en/antidoping/top50.pdf

Baseline
09-28-2005, 07:33 AM
Noticed that Davis Cup participants seem to have 2 test taken when they are tested at a DC tie, so that might explain much of Spain's excess, and Roddick's too - additional 4 in 2004 for each of them. To analyze this well you'd need to adjust for anomalies like that, e.g. A statistician should really consider this project.

Galaxystorm
09-28-2005, 10:19 AM
It's very known ATP doping policy is a joke, very permissive. I'm sure that if ATP used the cycling doping policy ( UCI ) a lot of tennis players tests would come out positive.

Besides ATP hushes up the positives of some TOP players, some times ATP hushes up.. 1) not suspending the player ...2) or some times the player is suspended for a pair of months but this positive isn't known by the press and fans.

Some months ago, among ATP players there was a rumour very widespread about a TOP player with blonde hair had been suspended by doping 2 or 3 months but this positive was never confirmed officially by ATP and in theory the player was injured

When the positive is a TOP player ( not being argentine ) ATP hushes it up and negotiate with that player a sanction of a pair months, on the other hand when the positive is other player the sanction is harsh and besides ATP confirms officially this positive.

ATP sucks ( a mafia organization )

TheMightyFed
09-28-2005, 11:09 AM
Some months ago, among ATP players there was a rumour very widespread about a TOP player with blonde hair had been suspended by doping 2 or 3 months but this positive was never confirmed officially by ATP and in theory the player was injured

Is this player yelling regularly "c'moooon !!!" during matches and proposes women as a hobby ? I have my idea on this one... ;)

Galaxystorm
09-28-2005, 11:14 AM
Is this player yelling regularly "c'moooon !!!" during matches and happens to make women pregnant ? I have my idea on this one... ;)

:scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :angel:

This player changed his clothing sponsor this year ;) ( and it isn't Lacoste )

TheMightyFed
09-28-2005, 11:18 AM
This "broken rib in the stairs" was the best ever excuse not to participate in a slam. We should do a ranking of those, and this one would be number 1 for sure...

nobama
09-28-2005, 12:15 PM
This "broken rib in the stairs" was the best ever excuse not to participate in a slam. We should do a ranking of those, and this one would be number 1 for sure...So basically what you're saying is Lleyton's a liar and a doper too...

TheMightyFed
09-28-2005, 12:31 PM
So basically what you're saying is Lleyton's a liar and a doper too...
Cool down...
Regarding the doping allegations I have no clue and never heard of the "blonde" rumor before. I just laughed at this broken rib stuff cause it was obvious Hewitt was not ready for Roland Garros but the ATP system requires medical reasons to withdraw.
If he was to be doped, I would see him as an amphetamin consumer, becasue he's very nervous, but again, I have no clue on this and honestly, I don't care. ;)

nobama
09-28-2005, 12:39 PM
Ok I was just curious because it seems some around here are so sure (with out any proof) that all the top players are dopers and the ATP/ITF just covers it up.

TheMightyFed
09-28-2005, 12:56 PM
Ok I was just curious because it seems some around here are so sure (with out any proof) that all the top players are dopers and the ATP/ITF just covers it up.
you would be naive to think that there is not at least 50% (pessimisitc estimation is more 80%) of players in the top 20 that take some undetectable products. No need to cover up, although the contaminated electrolytes story was certainly a cover up and is a joke... Some laboratories are specialised in that and with the money going around, players may get tons of proposals. Tauziat in France had some EPO proposals at the time by email, so imagine top males now...

You could say fine, if they all take stuuf, there is still competition, but again, we want good players that make us dream, but if these guys in 30 years or before die of drug overdose (after years of addiction to some products, etc.) or get liver or marrow diseases and spend a good part of their life in a weelchair, that's an expensive price to pay... I was very sad to learn that Marco Pantani (cycling) or Mickael Milon (karate) died of cocaine overdose both in pathetic circumstances... they dominated their sport and became icons, but now fans are already dreaming on others' performances and don't give a shit... pretty tragic as a system, isn't it ?

Baseline
09-28-2005, 01:29 PM
I wonder what most fans would want the ATP to do - do they want lifetime bans from the sport, or something more akin to the 20 game suspension offered up in other sports these days? Do fans want all players to be tested or not? In the end it is about profit, so shouldn't the fans have some say in that? Ticket sales might not be where the real profit is, but money is made due to fan support, so why shouldn't the ATP ask these kind of questions.

TheMightyFed
09-28-2005, 01:43 PM
I wonder what most fans would want the ATP to do - do they want lifetime bans from the sport, or something more akin to the 20 game suspension offered up in other sports these days? Do fans want all players to be tested or not? In the end it is about profit, so shouldn't the fans have some say in that? Ticket sales might not be where the real profit is, but money is made due to fan support, so why shouldn't the ATP ask these kind of questions.
You're right, fans should have their word to say, but we have consuming habits, even in sport, and we just want our fix of good emotions, identification, nice show. Fans don't think long term, organisation. They are just customers, at the end of the business model. The wrong part of the model is that the demand is too strong and puts too much pressure on athletes for them to be safe. When you compare the old days when a Laver did the Grand slam playing only the 4 majors, and the schedule of a Nadal or a Federer this year, that's nuts. Bodies are the same but media coverage, sponsoring and globalization dictate a crazy rythm for the players, who don't have much time to put things in perspective. They have to deliver.

Baseline
09-28-2005, 02:34 PM
Great point about overplaying - shouldn't allow commercial demand to dictate quantity of play. I'm personally in favor of limiting player schedules - more so than the ATP. The ranking system could easily be adjusted to reduce player need to enter so many tournaments and I think it should be. The ATP will not, however, as that interferes with profits and the growing demand in widespread venues. It could be that fans are more interested in keeping players healthy and perhaps a little fan pressure on the ATP is just what is needed at this point!

What about a fan petitition to the ATP requesting improvements? I'd sign one and I bet a lot of other fans would too. Coming up with something everyone agrees on though, that's another matter.

TheMightyFed
09-28-2005, 02:48 PM
It could be that fans are more interested in keeping players healthy and perhaps a little fan pressure on the ATP is just what is needed at this point!
That's a great idea but the ATP, as every global "company", must think global and act local: every country wants a part of the cake and wants to see the circus. Still in my business analogy, ATP has to respond to the demand, if I stretch it a bit, players' health is a limited resource, it is a bit like petrol. China wants petrol to maintain its growth, though we know if they want the same level of life and consumption than US or Europe, the resources won't be enough. And we as Europeans, can not tell them not to do the same as we did in the last 40 years ! for ATP it is the same, some countries are ready to pay giant appearance fees and build great stadiums because the demand is there. But it's weighing a lot on player's bodies and health. Can we tell them it's not possible because they have also to play in Europe and US and be healthy to keep entertaining us ? TV ratings are the best in the country where the tournament takes place, so imagine the money behind ! And then you see some sad situation like in China Open WTA where players have to withdraw one after another because of injuries and everybody's upset.
I don't think as a global community, we fans can do much because we have different interests at the end: we want to see the players play around, at our time, on our channels... be it to the detriment of players' health and doping decrease. Then ATP organise a few tests here and there just to maintain credibility, but their attention is on developping "markets", and making their business profitable on a global scale, not chasing doping. On the contrary, it helps them to reach their goal !!

Margy
09-28-2005, 03:27 PM
ATP has a table specifically for top 50 players and the numbers of tests I found in the one for 2004 are higher than those posted above, e.g. 9 for Moya, Robredo, and Roddick. What causes the ATP to test Roddick 9 times, but Agassi only 4 e.g.? (increase perhaps from adding urine to blood tests?)

Someone who is guilty has no grounds to complain about being tested, and someone who is innocent perhaps no need to worry, but what about players who were not tested at all, or tested so infrequently who knows if they are doping? What is the grounds for that? If the ATP wanted to choose scapegoats they could easily by selectively testing some of the players they have good reason to suspect are doping. The ones they target are guilty, but so are many others they decided not to target.


Ahhh.....Thanks for pointing out this other table.
I see now that the one I looked at was for ATP AntiDoping Tests. There are separate tables for ITF AntiDoping Tests and Bloodtests. The one you referred to has the combined testing so is a much better indicator. I think some low numbers are explained by the fact that players missed part of the year due to injury. But, yes it is very strange that a player like Dent who I think played pretty much the whole year wasn't tested at all. :confused:

Thanks for posting the combined info. :)

Baseline
09-28-2005, 03:31 PM
In re: less tests due to players being out with injury,
Coria was out from Toronto to Master's Cup, but was tested
out of the circuit too. Heard before that Roddick was
tested once at his home (2003?), so being out shouldn't change
frequency necessarily. Interesting thread, thanks!

Margy
09-28-2005, 03:33 PM
In re: less tests due to players being out with injury,
Coria was out from Toronto to Master's Cup, but was tested
out of the circuit too. Heard before that Roddick was
tested once at his home (2003?), so being out shouldn't change
frequency necessarily. Interesting thread, thanks!

That's interesting. I'm surprised that they can be tested when they're out or can be bothered at home for testing. That seems like an invasion of privacy.

jazz_girl
09-28-2005, 03:36 PM
Yeah, being out of the circuit doesn't mean you can't be tested. I've heard that many Argentines players have been tested at their own home.

jazz_girl
09-28-2005, 03:37 PM
That's interesting. I'm surprised that they can be tested when they're out or can be bothered at home for testing. That seems like an invasion of privacy.
I think I heard Calleri once saying he had to come back from his vacations because he was asked to take a doping test. They usually do surprising tests.

TheMightyFed
09-28-2005, 03:42 PM
Yeah, being out of the circuit doesn't mean you can't be tested. I've heard that many Argentines players have been tested at their own home.
It's the best way to catch the guys, usually they dope during training periods, their doctors calculate the time they need to wait before the product is not detectable (like steroids), but sometimes these doctors screw up in the dates because everyone has a different body and absorbs the product in a different way and this is how the players get caught in tourneys...

Margy
09-28-2005, 03:44 PM
I think I heard Calleri once saying he had to come back from his vacations because he was asked to take a doping test. They usually do surprising tests.

So I guess the trick here is to have someone screen your calls for you when you're on vacation so you can say "Ooh, sorry, I never got the message" :lol:

R.Federer
09-28-2005, 03:55 PM
Here it comes.......
Argentina had 7 players tested 3 times and 2 players tested 4 times.
Spain had 10 players tested 3 times, 3 players tested 4 times, and 3 players tested 5 times.


It is possible that if someone is detect with , technically legal, but close to illegal amount one time then those persons are tested a second, third, fourth time.

This was the case with Canas. He is found earlier to have technicaly below illegal limit of some drug, but next time with illegal amount of something in Acapulca

TheMightyFed
09-28-2005, 03:57 PM
This was the case with Canas. He is found earlier to have technicaly below illegal limit of some drug, but next time with illegal amount of something in Acapulca
Acapulca is a dangerous place for a tennis player, everybody knows that ;)

Baseline
09-28-2005, 04:02 PM
If the players who dope would typically do so in the off season, then shouldn't more players be tested during the off season? Not many are per the table. Those off-season selections could be especially targeted toward certain players/countries. Again, it is fine to do more testing of a player if there are suspicions, but that doesn't explain skipping players - how could someone ever enter the suspicious category if they are never tested, or tested so rarely that odds are they won't be caught?

Margy
09-28-2005, 04:04 PM
It is possible that if someone is detect with , technically legal, but close to illegal amount one time then those persons are tested a second, third, fourth time.

Well, I have to admit that does make some sense. So, if that's how it happens, I can't argue that it's wrong. Having marinally legal results would make one wonder if they are timing something just right to test safely at tournaments. I'd want to check them again for sure. Even if it means catching them in their pj's at home. :lol:

R.Federer
09-28-2005, 04:09 PM
Well, I have to admit that does make some sense. So, if that's how it happens, I can't argue that it's wrong. Having marinally legal results would make one wonder if they are timing something just right to test safely at tournaments. I'd want to check them again for sure. Even if it means catching them in their pj's at home. :lol:

Yes, testing out of competitoin is quite a common thing in many sport. armstrong and othes have said that people just show up without the notice and ask for tests. But I don't konw: does ATP rule says a player may not take pot during his holidays? ;)

R.Federer
09-28-2005, 04:16 PM
Then:
Switzerland had 3 players each tested 3 times.
Germany had 2 players tested 3 times and 2 players tested 4 times.
Italy had 4 players tested 3 times and 1 player tested 4 times.



I am not following how you get these numbers ..? You are saying this is out of competition or during tournamentes? In the 2004 statistics, Federer is tested 7 times in competition -so you are saying that he is tested only 3 time out of competitoin?

(http://www.atptennis.com/en/common/TrackIt.asp?file=/en/antidoping/top50.pdf)

TheMightyFed
09-28-2005, 04:19 PM
Yes, testing out of competitoin is quite a common thing in many sport. armstrong and othes have said that people just show up without the notice and ask for tests. But I don't konw: does ATP rule says a player may not take pot during his holidays? ;)
this is a very valid question because I think WADA wants to authorize "recreational" drug between competition, including amphetamins and coke, which is silly as this can lead to addictive behaviours similar to doping, but there were several cases of sportsmen partying a bit too much after their competitions...

hitchhiker
09-28-2005, 04:20 PM
all these conspiracy theories are total crap.
if my local junkie is out of drugs, i contact the argentinian tennis players.

Baseline
09-28-2005, 04:21 PM
Those numbers are not the ones in the table for the top 50 players,
as explained a few notes ago by Margy. In the table you link, the
one cumulating the various tests for top 50 players, there is a column
for tests out of competition - it's the second one from the right, and
there are only 3 tests in that column for the top 50 players, Coria, Robredo, and F. Lopez. I have no idea why only 3 - that's what I am wondering if it is true that the players are more likely to test positive in off season. Makes it seem like the ATP doesn't really want to catch people, if that is the case.
Or, only catch certain people. It just looks really suspicious.

Galaxystorm
09-28-2005, 04:23 PM
Ok I was just curious because it seems some around here are so sure (with out any proof) that all the top players are dopers and the ATP/ITF just covers it up.

A lot of rumours didn't begin in the press , but inside of the tour among the players . The rumour about this blonde guy who was suspended by doping is a rumour that some players talked about in their private conversations.

When you listen guys as for example Safin in the press conferences talking about doping subjects he always smiles ironically showing that players know more than they can tell in public.

Baseline
09-28-2005, 04:25 PM
Re: getting drugs from the Argentines

How could it be that only Argentines are doping? That seems extremely far fetched to me. Especially after Henman and Rusedski got away with their infractions, how can you claim that?

Galaxystorm
09-28-2005, 04:26 PM
In re: less tests due to players being out with injury,
Coria was out from Toronto to Master's Cup, but was tested
out of the circuit too. Heard before that Roddick was
tested once at his home (2003?), so being out shouldn't change
frequency necessarily. Interesting thread, thanks!

Nadal was also tested by surprise in his hometown this season

TheMightyFed
09-28-2005, 04:28 PM
Re: getting drugs from the Argentines

How could it be that only Argentines are doping? That seems extremely far fetched to me. Especially after Henman and Rusedski got away with their infractions, how can you claim that?
Henman was caught too ? :confused:

Margy
09-28-2005, 04:29 PM
I am not following how you get these numbers ..? You are saying this is out of competition or during tournamentes? In the 2004 statistics, Federer is tested 7 times in competition -so you are saying that he is tested only 3 time out of competitoin?

(http://www.atptennis.com/en/common/TrackIt.asp?file=/en/antidoping/top50.pdf)

The numbers I used here were from only the ATP testing for all players both in and out of comp.. There is another table that includes ATP, ITF, and Blood testing combined for only the top 50. But that is a better indicator since it covers all types. I should go back to my first post and edit it to clarify.
(If I can figure out how to do that :scratch: )

Margy
09-28-2005, 04:41 PM
The numbers I used here were from only the ATP testing for all players both in and out of comp.. There is another table that includes ATP, ITF, and Blood testing combined for only the top 50. But that is a better indicator since it covers all types. I should go back to my first post and edit it to clarify.
(If I can figure out how to do that :scratch: )


Okay, done! Hopefully the edit makes things clearer. :)

jtipson
09-28-2005, 04:50 PM
Henman was caught too ? :confused:

Nope. At least I've never heard of it.

Baseline
09-28-2005, 04:52 PM
In re: Henman

I read the tribunal reports of both Coria and Henman and the fact situations were almost identical - supplements tainted with Nadrolone. The cases appeared at about the same time.

Coria's tribunal concluded that his supplements were tainted but not labeled and that he checked them out with a Dr. used for Olympic anti-doping testing and that the Dr. cleared the supplements. If I recall correctly, it was a tribunal of South American doctors (not Argentine). They sanctioned/fined him with "extenuating circumstances" because they believed (their conclusion, not my opinion BTW) he tried in good faith to abide by the policy and was not attempting to dope. The strict liability approach to enforcement.

Henman's tribunal concluded his supplements were tainted and Henman tried to abide by the policy, but they did not levy any sanctions or fines.

It's that uneven enforcement that raises my suspicions the most, and what creates the misconception of today that only Argentines are doping. The ATP could have used the same tribunal for both players, and I believe they should have. To me there is no difference between what Coria did and what Henman did, but look at how one is vilified in the press and one is ignored. The US media doesn't seem to remember Henman's case, like amnesia. Reminds me of George Orwell's stories.

R.Federer
09-28-2005, 04:52 PM
Okay, done! Hopefully the edit makes things clearer. :)
Yes thanks I understand now :)

Baseline
09-28-2005, 04:54 PM
To clarify, what I meant by saying the opinion of Coria's tribunal was not my opinion was to say that was their conclusion, not my own. I did not mean to say that I reached a different conclusion.

Remarkable how few people know about Henman's nandrolone issues.

jtipson
09-28-2005, 04:55 PM
In re: Henman

I read the tribunal reports of both Coria and Henman and the fact situations were almost identical - supplements tainted with Nadrolone. The cases appeared at about the same time.

Are you sure you mean Henman and not Rusedski? I'm not aware of any drugs case involving Tim.

TheMightyFed
09-28-2005, 04:55 PM
In re: Henman
The US media doesn't seem to remember Henman's case, like amnesia. Reminds me of George Orwell's stories.
Bur almost nobody knew ! I've never read anything on Henman case before your post :rolleyes:

R.Federer
09-28-2005, 04:58 PM
Henman? Don't remember any positive test for Henman

Only he was once suspended for hitting a ball girl with ball (angry about something turns into accident)

Margy
09-28-2005, 04:59 PM
TRemarkable how few people know about Henman's nandrolone issues.

I don't remember hearing about him either. Could you post a link to some official story about it? Thanks. :)

Baseline
09-28-2005, 05:01 PM
I am absolutely certain I read a tribunal report on Henman's use of nandrolone tainted supplements. I would have read this on the internet about 6 months ago. The ATP site's archives do not go back to that time, however, or I would link to that tribunal report and to Coria's. The two cases appeared very near to each other - within months I believe.

Baseline
09-28-2005, 05:02 PM
I will try to find something on it - the media ignores it now, but there may be something in an old source.

jtipson
09-28-2005, 05:04 PM
I'm quite sure the British media would never have forgotten it. There was an enormous furore about Rusedski's issue, and Henman would certainly get as much coverage, if not more. It would have made main news headlines on UK TV.

Chloe le Bopper
09-28-2005, 05:07 PM
I read an article by Bob Larson where he summarized all recent cases since about 2001... and don't remember seeing a word about Henman. So if the Henman case actually happened, it must have been before that.

smucav
09-28-2005, 05:07 PM
What causes the ATP to test Roddick 9 times, but Agassi only 4 e.g.?Roddick played nearly twice as many matches as Agassi in 2004 (92 singles/7 doubles v. 50 singles/2 doubles).

Chloe le Bopper
09-28-2005, 05:09 PM
Most people who vilify Coria, btw, have not bothered to read the details of his case. Same with Puerta. Frankly, I wouldn't have a problem with people reading them and criticizing them, taking into consideration the specifics of each case... it's just the complete ignorance of people around here and in the media that grates.

Baseline
09-28-2005, 05:11 PM
It seems strange to me now too - just like Orwell, but when I saw the report and read it I hadn't been following pro tennis for years and it did not strike me as unusual at all. I wish I knew it wasn't general knowledge - I would have definitely saved a copy of it.

If I've confused Henman and Rusedski I'm extremely sorry for doing that, but what I remember clearly is that the date of the tribunal was very close to the date of Coria's tribunal - Rusedski was years later, wasn't he? I recall vaguely that one of the tribunal "judges" might have been Scottish (?) - I think they were all British. I remember distinctly comparing the composition of the two tribunals - wondering whether the outcomes might have been brought about by biases of some kind.

Baseline
09-28-2005, 05:13 PM
Roddick played nearly twice as many matches as Agassi in 2004 (92 singles/7 doubles v. 50 singles/2 doubles).


That's true, but someone made the point that doping is likely to occur off season too. Also, Roddick was in Davis Cup and ITF tested him 2 times in each of two Davis Cup ties, so 9-4 = 5 which isn't out of line with Agassi's numbers.

jtipson
09-28-2005, 05:15 PM
Anyone else wondering why the numbers of tests per player is so low? I'm sure Federer and Roddick were tested around 20 times in 2003, but it looks like nothing near that number last year. Or have I mis-interpreted this?

R.Federer
09-28-2005, 05:16 PM
I am absolutely certain I read a tribunal report on Henman's use of nandrolone tainted supplements. I would have read this on the internet about 6 months ago. The ATP site's archives do not go back to that time, however, or I would link to that tribunal report and to Coria's. The two cases appeared very near to each other - within months I believe.

Henman is sitting on the "Task force of Supplement use" in ATP!

So I would be particularly surprised that they put a previous dope-positive person on this board. I have not ever heard this,not even as a rumor

Chloe le Bopper
09-28-2005, 05:18 PM
ATennisFan.. in all due respect, I simply find it unlikely that every single item on the internet that had mentioned Henman's case would be mysteriously wiped from record. I think that it's far more likely that your memory is failing you.

Chloe le Bopper
09-28-2005, 05:19 PM
Henman is sitting on the "Task force of Supplement use" in ATP!

So I would be particularly surprised that they put a previous dope-positive person on this board. I have not ever heard this,not even as a rumor
Well considering what the point of the Task Force is, I really wouldn't find it particularly surprising (if indeed he did have a case similar to Coria's, which I'm highly doubting seeing as I can't find squat on it).

Baseline
09-28-2005, 05:34 PM
Was a case on Korda in which the tribunal let him off and the ATP wanted to overturn their own decision - very interesting:

"Several players are angry that Korda escaped ban and want to know the special circumstances which the independent appeals panel accepted for him to avoid suspension." Also,

MELBOURNE, Australia (AP) -- Australian Open champion Petr Korda has lodged a legal challenge to the International Tennis Federation's planned appeal against the leniency of his penalty for testing positive to steroids.

Korda's lawyers have begun proceedings in the High Court in England in a bid to stop the ITF appealing its independent panel's decision not to impose a one-year ban on him in the Court of Arbitration for Sport in Lausanne.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/tennis/news/1999/01/14/korda_challenge/

*Ljubica*
09-28-2005, 05:40 PM
Henman is sitting on the "Task force of Supplement use" in ATP!

So I would be particularly surprised that they put a previous dope-positive person on this board. I have not ever heard this,not even as a rumor

Yes - Tim is on the "Task Force" Board and I have never heard this rumour either - though Rusedski did test positive for nandrolene in 2003.

Baseline
09-28-2005, 05:45 PM
ATennisFan.. in all due respect, I simply find it unlikely that every single item on the internet that had mentioned Henman's case would be mysteriously wiped from record. I think that it's far more likely that your memory is failing you.

It is certainly possible - and it could be the Korda case I was remembering as it occurred before Coria's. If I can find something on Henman I will post it - and if I am remembering a Henman tribunal in error I sincerely apologize for it. To make my point, however, I don't think it is necessary to show Henman was brought before a tribunal - sufficient to show what hapened to Korda and to Rusedski. The enforcement is not uniform.

Chloe le Bopper
09-28-2005, 05:47 PM
It is certainly possible - and it could be the Korda case I was remembering as it occurred before Coria's. If I can find something on Henman I will post it - and if I am remembering a Henman tribunal in error I sincerely apologize for it. To make my point, however, I don't think it is necessary to show Henman was brought before a tribunal - sufficient to show what hapened to Korda and to Rusedski. The enforcement is not uniform.
I agree with your last point - or at the least, I consider it most likely. Also, I'm sure that if the Henman bit was indeed untrue, that it was accidental. If something turns up, let us know. :)

Baseline
09-28-2005, 06:24 PM
Thanks! You are very understanding. I had no intent of being inflammatory or spreading libel and didn't realize mentioning Henman was that - still believe I read something, but exactly what is in question due to fuzzyness of memory.

I firmly believe in backing things up with good hard evidence which I'll post if I can find that document again. The internet is too large to be censored completely - to believe it could be would require belief in a radical conspiracy theory, a ludicrous thought IMO as well. Unfortunately, the internet is so large I don't know if I can find it again either.

Julio1974
09-28-2005, 06:33 PM
all these conspiracy theories are total crap.
if my local junkie is out of drugs, i contact the argentinian tennis players.

You may contact Capriatti or Amstrong. I'm sure they are closer...