With Andre's US Open final appearance at 35 [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

With Andre's US Open final appearance at 35

BAMJ6
09-19-2005, 05:03 AM
Has he taken back the best current USA player from Roddick. At 35 no less and was 30-0 in a 4-2 3rd set from forcing Federer to go 5 to defend

RogersGirl
09-19-2005, 06:43 AM
for me at least, andre was always the favorite of the two (he and roddick). the media and many fans made Roddick the darling of contemporary american tennis, but his great run at flushing meadows put agassi back in the limelight. maybe he hasn't taken the title away from roddick-- in my eyes agassi still had it. but thats sentiment, not rationale.

oneandonlyhsn
09-19-2005, 07:54 AM
Has he taken back the best current USA player from Roddick. At 35 no less and was 30-0 in a 4-2 3rd set from forcing Federer to go 5 to defend

:scratch: It was 4, anyway Andre is still in my eyes the best American player when he is healthy. The media just wants someone younger to attract the younger generation into the sport (majority of Andys fans are teenage girls so no surprise really)

AZILANA
09-19-2005, 09:45 AM
i dont think andre lost it, andy just keep it warm for him while andre's taking a much needed break.. lol

uNIVERSE mAN
09-19-2005, 01:27 PM
Check Agassi-Roddick H2H, end of story.

BAMJ6
09-19-2005, 05:21 PM
:scratch: It was 4

Read man, read

was 30-0 in a 4-2 3rd set from forcing Federer to go 5 to defend

AgassiFan
09-19-2005, 05:33 PM
Check Agassi-Roddick H2H, end of story.

I forgot what's their head to head?


One thing Andy has going for him is that he sodomized the virginal Mandy Moore AND hosted SNL.

Rafa = Fed Killa
09-19-2005, 05:35 PM
Andre has been the best for 4 years.

R.Federer
09-19-2005, 06:07 PM
Has he taken back the best current USA player from Roddick. At 35 no less and was 30-0 in a 4-2 3rd set from forcing Federer to go 5 to defend
This is speculation. Even if he held to go 5-2 what guarantee that Federer would not step it up at 5-3 to break.

30-0 4-2 in the third is really no different from Roge having 3 chances to get back on serve in the 2nd and then perhaps being 2 sets up to love.

Too much has been made of that one point in the match when there were many other pivotal points in the match which could have swung it in any direction. andre had chances in the first, after saving 5 or 6 set points, to get back on serve as well.

PamV
09-19-2005, 06:18 PM
The issue for me is to wait and see what happens next. At the moment Andre looks like the bigger force in American tennis, however, we don't know if he will stay on tour and be a force in 2006 or will he just play a few selected tournaments. Also I want to see if Roddick is going to keep on losing to lower ranked opponents or will he snap out of that and have some good wins?

MisterQ
09-19-2005, 07:23 PM
I forgot what's their head to head?


One thing Andy has going for him is that he sodomized the virginal Mandy Moore AND hosted SNL.

Agassi leads 5-1 .

The last three matches have been really close (I believe Andre even had a match point in his loss at Queen's Club...).

http://www.atptennis.com/en/players/headtohead/head2head.asp?player1=roddick%2C+andy&player2=agassi

AgassiFan
09-19-2005, 08:05 PM
This is speculation. Even if he held to go 5-2 what guarantee that Federer would not step it up at 5-3 to break.

30-0 4-2 in the third is really no different from Roge having 3 chances to get back on serve in the 2nd and then perhaps being 2 sets up to love.




Such "speculation" is deeply rooted in understanding subtelties of tennis momentum and specific players and situation. Anything is possible, but we're talking about odds - Andre wins that game, he likely wins the set and probably the match.

No, 4-2, 30-0 and great looks at Roger's backhand on subsequent 2 points IS different from Roger having some BP on ANDRE's serve or losing his serve at 15-40 in the 2nd set.

Adman
09-19-2005, 08:16 PM
:scratch:The media just wants someone younger to attract the younger generation into the sport (majority of Andys fans are teenage girls so no surprise really)

True the mojority of fans are teenage girls.

R.Federer
09-19-2005, 08:36 PM
Such "speculation" is deeply rooted in understanding subtelties of tennis momentum and specific players and situation. Anything is possible, but we're talking about odds - Andre wins that game, he likely wins the set and probably the match.

No, 4-2, 30-0 and great looks at Roger's backhand on subsequent 2 points IS different from Roger having some BP on ANDRE's serve or losing his serve at 15-40 in the 2nd set.
Well such understanding of subtleties would also point at Roge not having the momentum going into the tiebreaker, after losing so many chances (4 or 5) to break andre at 5-all and serving it out. So the usual subtleties are just that-- speculation based on some past observations. In fact the opposite happened.

One would have thought that after losing so many opportunities, Roger would be a little down on himself. It is all simple now to point to that as such a pivotal point but so many strange momentum shifts have taken place in slam matches so I dont see why this would be an exception where there is so little doubt of what would happen, could happen, etc. based on those few points.

Take coria at 5-4 40-15. He lost that point, the game, set and so on (French2003). Would anyone have speculated that he would then get to the first match point at 6-5 in the fifth? Slam matches bring strange momentum shifts out, the rest we can speculate

musefanatic
09-19-2005, 08:43 PM
I think agassi is still the king, Roddick couldn't get past the first round this tournie.

AgassiFan
09-20-2005, 07:34 PM
Well such understanding of subtleties would also point at Roge not having the momentum going into the tiebreaker, after losing so many chances (4 or 5) to break andre at 5-all and serving it out. So the usual subtleties are just that-- speculation based on some past observations. In fact the opposite happened.

One would have thought that after losing so many opportunities, Roger would be a little down on himself. It is all simple now to point to that as such a pivotal point but so many strange momentum shifts have taken place in slam matches so I dont see why this would be an exception where there is so little doubt of what would happen, could happen, etc. based on those few points.



Apples and cucumbers. Wasted BP's on somebody else's serve don't count the same as 2-4, 0-30 and two great looks at an open court that weren't taken advantage of in the manner in which they were just a few minutes earlier...

And you've gotta be absolutely kidding me with the whole "Roger not having momentum going into tie breaker"... By his body language, Roger almost conceeded the 3rd set in the 7th game down 0-30 and even after Agassi failed to get his first serves in, Andre still was given great shots to finish off the game, but instead chose not to go for the open court, foolishly choosing to play it more conservatively, which prolonged the point and eventually Fed went for a desperation off balance shot that he was missing all game long that just so happened to clip both lines... Agassi's lack of killer instinct followed by some good shotmaking bailed Fed out of a 5-2 hole and from that point on the momentum was firmly on Roger's side because his margin for error increased while Agassi all but realized he blew his one shot at an upset even before the tie-breaker had commenced...

R.Federer
09-20-2005, 08:27 PM
Apples and cucumbers. Wasted BP's on somebody else's serve don't count the same as 2-4, 0-30 and two great looks at an open court that weren't taken advantage of in the manner in which they were just a few minutes earlier...

And you've gotta be absolutely kidding me with the whole "Roger not having momentum going into tie breaker"... By his body language, Roger almost conceeded the 3rd set in the 7th game down 0-30 and even after Agassi failed to get his first serves in, Andre still was given great shots to finish off the game, but instead chose not to go for the open court, foolishly choosing to play it more conservatively, which prolonged the point and eventually Fed went for a desperation off balance shot that he was missing all game long that just so happened to clip both lines... Agassi's lack of killer instinct followed by some good shotmaking bailed Fed out of a 5-2 hole and from that point on the momentum was firmly on Roger's side because his margin for error increased while Agassi all but realized he blew his one shot at an upset even before the tie-breaker had commenced...

Well I think we continue to disagree, so I just will say that I think this is much easyer in hindsight with result known. In so many slam matches the momentum swings inexplacably from one side to another. Later on it is easy to guess, is this a swing point or that one? I think 4-2 30-0 is one of the swing points, but I dont think it was the only one which determines who wins the game, set and match.

JonnyC21
09-20-2005, 11:32 PM
If Andre is healthy and plays his best he can beat any other player except Federer. At the moment the recent matches between Andre and Andy Roddick are very close and point to them as almost being almost equally matched but with Agassi having a distinct mental advantage.

If Agassi and Roddick both play the Master's Cup I would think Agassi is far more likely to do well.

AgassiFan
09-21-2005, 12:38 AM
Well I think we continue to disagree, so I just will say that I think this is much easyer in hindsight with result known. .

Hindsight? If you go the game thread, you will see that I and a couple of others pretty much said the game was over after the 7th game in the 3rd set when Andre failed to get 1st serves in, couldn't capitalize on fairly routine putaways to Roger's backhand side that Andre was abusing in the previous games, wasting a GREAT chance to go up 5-2, which IMO would meant the match goes at least 5, and might have been over in 4.

Against Federer, you're only given a few chances to put him away, go up in sets, and let the crowd/adrenaline carry you home.... because when you take the foot off the proverbial gas pedal (whether it be in the 1st or 5th set), and give him time to find his rhythm... YOU'RE DEAD.

Whether Fed played badly or not doesn't matter. Andre totally blew it.



...

disturb3d
09-21-2005, 12:57 AM
If Andre is healthy and plays his best he can beat any other player except Federer.If Andre plays well, he hits every one of Roger's 125 mph serves for winners. Now if only he was 10 years younger, and didn't have a handicap. He would have maintained that level, and taken the match in 4 sets.

Imagine Roger, playing a 35 year old version of himself.
The outcome would be a quick 6-0, 6-1, 6-1

You have to emphasize the fact that Andre is the best that tennis has to offer.
At 35, still able to play tennis At Roger's level.

AgassiFan
09-21-2005, 01:07 AM
At 35, still able to play tennis At Roger's level.

Their first 4 meetings? Yes. Andre was better.
Their 2 US Open meetings? Yes. Andre was every bit as good.


But the YEC Final in '03 and Dubai in '05 clearly showed Andre can't move well enough on the backhand side to be considered anywhere near Roger's equal. Sorry.

disturb3d
09-21-2005, 01:13 AM
Their first 4 meetings? Yes. Andre was better.
Their 2 US Open meetings? Yes. Andre was every bit as good.


But the YEC Final in '03 and Dubai in '05 clearly showed Andre can't move well enough on the backhand side to be considered anywhere near Roger's equal. Sorry.You'd have to be crazy to believe that Andre is Roger's equal.

What I said was that he can play at Roger's level. Which he proved by destroying Roger in Kooyong last year, and often out-playing him in their USO meetings.

AgassiFan
09-21-2005, 01:13 AM
If Andre plays well, he hits every one of Roger's 125 mph serves for winners. Now if only he was 10 years younger, and didn't have a handicap..

Andre couldn't even handle Coria's 2nd serves at 2003 Golan Garros... what the hell are you talking about?

10 years ago, Andre had a pussy serve, crappy fitness, and was strategically less than stellar. Yes, he could smack more winners and get more balls back in play, but his weak serve and high UE totals more than negated the difference.

Maybe IF Agassi had treated tennis at 20 like he started treating it at 30, then Andre would have been on more equal footing with Federer and definately would have given Pete trouble... But IF's don't count for much, do they?

AgassiFan
09-21-2005, 01:16 AM
You'd have to be crazy to believe that Andre is Roger's equal.

What I said was that he can play at Roger's level. Which he proved by destroying Roger in Kooyong last year, and often out-playing him in their USO meetings.

You got that straight.

Kooyong didn't count, did it? And no matter how well Agassi played Roger at US Open, much like in his Slam meetings with Pete, Dre failed to elevate his game on "big" points, while Roger and Pete saved their best for exactly those kind of occasions... Loss is a loss, no matter how close.

disturb3d
09-21-2005, 01:19 AM
Maybe IF Agassi had treated tennis at 20 like he started treating it at 30, then Andre would have been on more equal footing with Federer and definately would have given Pete trouble... But IF's don't count for much, do they?Put the current Andre in a 25 year old body, and you have an unbeatable player on hardcourts.

disturb3d
09-21-2005, 01:22 AM
You got that straight.

Kooyong didn't count, did it? And no matter how well Agassi played Roger at US Open, much like in his Slam meetings with Pete, Dre failed to elevate his game on "big" points, while Roger and Pete saved their best for exactly those kind of occasions... Loss is a loss, no matter how close.Pete was a 5-star player in a career that spanned a decade.
Andre was a 4-star player in a career that spanned two decades.

Who do you believe to be a better player?
Personally, I'd recognize a long consistent career as more of an accomplishment.

AgassiFan
09-21-2005, 01:58 AM
Put the current Andre in a 25 year old body, and you have an unbeatable player on hardcourts.

Ok, I will.

There.

Happy?

IMMORTALCHAMP
09-21-2005, 04:51 AM
The only reason Roddick is ranked higher is because he plays twice as many tournaments. Roddick has no idea how to beat Agassi.

Agassi leads head to head 5-1:

2004

Cincinnati AMS, Hard, S
Ohio, USA

Hard

S

Agassi

7 5 6 7 7 6

2003

London / Queen's Club, Grass, S
England

Grass

S

Roddick

1 6 7 6 6 7

2003

Houston, Clay, F
TX, U.S.A.

Clay

F

Agassi

3 6 6 3 6 4

2002

San Jose, Hard, S
CA, U.S.A.

Hard

S

Agassi

6 3 6 1

2000

Washington, Hard, Q
DC, U.S.A.

Hard

Q

Agassi

6 4 6 4

2000

Miami, Hard, R64
FL, U.S.A.

Hard

R64

Agassi

6 2 6 3

pmhong
09-28-2005, 05:02 AM
Put the current Andre in a 25 year old body, and you have an unbeatable player on hardcourts.

No way.