Has Roger figured out Nadal's Game? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Has Roger figured out Nadal's Game?

PamV
08-14-2005, 10:58 PM
I think Roger already figured Nadal's game out in Miami, but still it will be a question of executing what he wants to do and readjusting if Nadal changes anything.

In Montreal I think Agassi did a good job of running Nadal around but he came up lacking with 3 or 4 important volleys that he should have made. To me this shows a formula that many players could use. Run him around then come in at the right time and MAKE the volley. I also noticed that Agassi didn't go for the lines when he could have at times to close out a rally. I think Roger can do all of that when he's feeling good.

Someone posted that Nadal's power is an issue for Roger..... I don't think so. Nadal isn't as powerful as Safin or Roddick. I think it's more the way Nadal runs and gets to so many shots that bugs Roger....plus the high bouncing shots.

World Beater
08-14-2005, 11:03 PM
The moonball junk to the bh side of roger is what gives him trouble. I would suggest that roger slice that bh much more against nadal, and serve-volley frequently.

ExpectedWinner
08-14-2005, 11:13 PM
I agree about slice part, not sure about s&v . Nadal is a good passer.

oneandonlyhsn
08-14-2005, 11:14 PM
The moonball junk to the bh side of roger is what gives him trouble. I would suggest that roger slice that bh much more against nadal, and serve-volley frequently.

Exactly, I dont think that most people havent figured out Rafas game its dealing with his heavy top spin. In Rogers case its worse because of his BH is more effective with low bounces.

PamV
08-14-2005, 11:28 PM
I agree about slice part, not sure about s&v . Nadal is a good passer.

He's a good passer but volleying at the right time and not missing the way Agassi did is what counter acts his passing. Agassi got Nadal way out of position and then came to the net in an excellent position to hit an unreturnable volley...but he netted it. Roger would have to be volleying well of course....but we know he can.

PamV
08-14-2005, 11:30 PM
Exactly, I dont think that most people havent figured out Rafas game its dealing with his heavy top spin. In Rogers case its worse because of his BH is more effective with low bounces.

I will have to rewatch my Miami tape, but I remember that Roger said at one point he realized how to get to the high bounces. Isn't it just a question of standing a little further back?

PamV
08-14-2005, 11:34 PM
Exactly, I dont think that most people havent figured out Rafas game its dealing with his heavy top spin. In Rogers case its worse because of his BH is more effective with low bounces.

Also how many TALL guys has Nadal faced? (not many) If he were facing Safin or any of the taller guys the high bounce would be fine with them. All in all Nadal has been lucky that Safin, Hewitt, and Roddick have fallen off their games this year. If he had to face Safin (in form) , Roddick(in form) then Federer....how fresh would he be? Well the TMC should be a hoot.

oneandonlyhsn
08-14-2005, 11:44 PM
Also how many TALL guys has Nadal faced? (not many) If he were facing Safin or any of the taller guys the high bounce would be fine with them. All in all Nadal has been lucky that Safin, Hewitt, and Roddick have fallen off their games this year. If he had to face Safin (in form) , Roddick(in form) then Federer....how fresh would he be? Well the TMC should be a hoot.

With the high bounces, it takes Roger time to adjust and ofcourse depending on the surface, on clay its harder for Roger because not only is he forced to deal with the high bounces but also hitting the extra shot. Most players who play against Rafa can stay with him for a while and then lose the last set by 6-1 or 6-2 because the spins take a toll on their shoulders/arms :scratch:
Roger was constantly trying to losen his arm in the last set at RG, anyway Roger is a smart player and hopefully he will be ready for Rafa when they meet again. I think Rogers chances are better in best of 5 then 3 sets.

As for Safin, I think he would be the best match up for Rafa because he deals quite well with the spins and he strikes the ball very cleanly. I think he gets frustrated with players who volley a lot, but he deals quite well with baseline players, also he punishes slow serves better than most.

PamV
08-15-2005, 12:19 AM
Good points Oneandonlyhsn. What you bring up is just why I've thought all along that there has been a somewhat false impression of how dominate Nadal is because he has not had to face the top 5 players repeatedly in tournaments. I am just guessing here.....but if he had to play Safin, then Hewitt, then Federer in one tournament he might not look as great as if he is playing let's say.....Robredo, Gaudio then Federer. There is a fatigue factor that occurs when being pushed by the top players in back to back matches. Roger's has been facing several top 5 opponents for the last two years in many of his tournaments.

oneandonlyhsn
08-15-2005, 12:21 AM
Good points Oneandonlyhsn. What you bring up is just why I've thought all along that there has been a somewhat false impression of how dominate Nadal is because he has not had to face the top 5 players repeatedly in tournaments. I am just guessing here.....but if he had to play Safin, then Hewitt, then Federer in one tournament he might not look as great as if he is playing let's say.....Robredo, Gaudio then Federer. There is a fatigue factor that occurs when being pushed by the top players in back to back matches. Roger's has been facing several top 5 opponents for the last two years in many of his tournaments.

I hope Roger shuts everyone up for the remainder of the season

ExpectedWinner
08-15-2005, 12:45 AM
He's a good passer but volleying at the right time and not missing the way Agassi did is what counter acts his passing. Agassi got Nadal way out of position and then came to the net in an excellent position to hit an unreturnable volley...but he netted it. Roger would have to be volleying well of course....but we know he can.

I mean he can't solely rely on s&v, unless he strarts serving like Sampras.

1sun
08-15-2005, 12:52 AM
well im in 2 about this. the last 2 sets of the miami final didnt convince me that much.(he was still playing like shit) but a strectch in the second set(even though he lost it). i think nadal broke roger in first game, but then for about 4 games roger just totaly outplayed nadal, there was nothing nadal could do. that convinced me he can beat nadal anyday and in style. the second set in RG wasnt that great either even though he won it, i wasnt confident after it. its whether he can keep the level of play up. so i dont think he was actualy figured him out, but its quite simple, he jsut plays his own game to 100% and he will win nicely. so i dont think he needs to figure a way of playing him, just concentrate on his own game. if he cant play his best for a longer enough peroid, then its time to get a game plan, a way of playing him, but i dont think he was that yet. no doubt the obvious problem is the topsin to his backhand.

yanchr
08-15-2005, 02:46 AM
As for Safin, I think he would be the best match up for Rafa because he deals quite well with the spins and he strikes the ball very cleanly. I think he gets frustrated with players who volley a lot, but he deals quite well with baseline players, also he punishes slow serves better than most.
Is Safin strongly missed here :lol:

No. Safin will always be the biggest threat to Roger on most surfaces. But ya would love to see how Safin rivals against Nadal, and also Nalbandian.

oneandonlyhsn
08-15-2005, 02:51 AM
Is Safin strongly missed here :lol:

No. Safin will always be the biggest threat to Roger on most surfaces. But ya would love to see how Safin rivals against Nadal, and also Nalbandian.

:lol: You got me on that one, I have always thought that Federer and Safin are the 2 most naturally talented players on the tour and I still do.
As for Safin, because of his game and power he wont be affected much by the heavy topspin like most of the other players.

yanchr
08-15-2005, 02:53 AM
Good points Oneandonlyhsn. What you bring up is just why I've thought all along that there has been a somewhat false impression of how dominate Nadal is because he has not had to face the top 5 players repeatedly in tournaments. I am just guessing here.....but if he had to play Safin, then Hewitt, then Federer in one tournament he might not look as great as if he is playing let's say.....Robredo, Gaudio then Federer. There is a fatigue factor that occurs when being pushed by the top players in back to back matches. Roger's has been facing several top 5 opponents for the last two years in many of his tournaments.
Hey, you can't say Nadal is dominant because Roger is still playing ;)

Guess does not count and also it's not Nadal's fault that he didn't have to play those names before claiming his title. Isn't it Roger's fault also :( ? But I'm thinking of how Roger was throned world No.1 back in AO 2004. He went through the opponents like Hewitt, Nalbandian, JC and Safin back to back. This was so convincing a way to finally get to the top of the world. BTW, Nadal has yet to get to that very top.

World Beater
08-15-2005, 03:01 AM
I agree about slice part, not sure about s&v . Nadal is a good passer.

But he doesnt return serve very well. I dont care how fast nadal, is asking him to hit pass after pass on a fast HC is demanding. Dont forget that fed can volley pretty decently

RogiFan88
08-15-2005, 03:17 AM
It's not a matter of power fr Rafa it's more a mind over matter matter for Rogi and no, I am not convinced that he has figured out Rafa's game... yet. I have yet to see it and hope he does it soon before Rafa truly dominates him as he has other players. Gaudio is not slouch on clay btw... and he has beaten Rafa more than once, incl. BsAs. Gaudio is one of THE best clay players out there w a solid strategy, lots of talent and a very smart game that I admire. ;)

guinevere_79
08-15-2005, 03:19 AM
I sure wish Rafa and Roger would meet in the final of Cincinnati. Then all these questions would be settled.

Wouldn't it be cool if all the TMS events this year are won by either Rafa or Roger? I could definitely see it happening. But of course, I'd like Roger to have all the rest from here on...

yanchr
08-15-2005, 03:21 AM
RogiFan, your avatar is so sweet :D

PamV
08-15-2005, 09:12 AM
It's not a matter of power fr Rafa it's more a mind over matter matter for Rogi and no, I am not convinced that he has figured out Rafa's game... yet. I have yet to see it and hope he does it soon before Rafa truly dominates him as he has other players. Gaudio is not slouch on clay btw... and he has beaten Rafa more than once, incl. BsAs. Gaudio is one of THE best clay players out there w a solid strategy, lots of talent and a very smart game that I admire. ;)

It's hard to say about figuring out his game or not, until they actually do play more times. He changed up something during the Miami final showing that he figured it out midstream. However, in FO Roger was saying he had Nadal's game figured out but then Roger couldn't actually execute what he wanted to do. So thinking about it, and doing it are two different things. I really wonder if Roger can find a player to emmulate Nadal's style for practice?

Personally...I dont' think Guadio is so great. He has moments of greatnetss but he's only about 5' 8" /155 lbs. and he is mentally fragile or you could say that he pouts at times. I saw him lose to Rochus in Hamburg.....and it was ridiculous. I think Guadio couldn't get over what he perceived as a bad call. Gaudio only beat Nadal once early in the year before Nadal got on a roll. During the year Nadal beat up Guadio in MC and other times I think Guadio didn't even make past some other player in order to get to play Nadal.

PamV
08-15-2005, 09:16 AM
I sure wish Rafa and Roger would meet in the final of Cincinnati. Then all these questions would be settled.

Wouldn't it be cool if all the TMS events this year are won by either Rafa or Roger? I could definitely see it happening. But of course, I'd like Roger to have all the rest from here on...

I'd rather see Roddick beat Nadal in the QF so that Nadal doesn't get any more points :devil:

SUKTUEN
08-15-2005, 09:42 AM
I love Roddick too~~~

RogiFan88
08-15-2005, 11:54 AM
...I really wonder if Roger can find a player to emmulate Nadal's style for practice?

Personally...I dont' think Guadio is so great. He has moments of greatnetss but he's only about 5' 8" /155 lbs. and he is mentally fragile or you could say that he pouts at times. I saw him lose to Rochus in Hamburg.....and it was ridiculous. I think Guadio couldn't get over what he perceived as a bad call. Gaudio only beat Nadal once early in the year before Nadal got on a roll. During the year Nadal beat up Guadio in MC and other times I think Guadio didn't even make past some other player in order to get to play Nadal.

Rogi can practise w Feli or Fer or even Carlos... for starters.

Re: Gaudio -- Safin is even more petulant and flaky imo... ;)

PamV
08-15-2005, 12:48 PM
Rogi can practise w Feli or Fer or even Carlos... for starters.

Re: Gaudio -- Safin is even more petulant and flaky imo... ;)

Well I don't think the Spanish guys would want to help Roger practice. LOL! I know Moya wouldn't. But in any case they aren't really the same as Nadal. I would suggest getting a ball machine and setting the dial to throw high bouncing top spin balls all over the place at a rapid pace.

I've never personally witnessed Safin's pouting. However, the impression I get when Safin goes off a bit is that he blames himself not everyone around him during the match. He might complain about a call....but I don't think he holds a grudge for an entire set. The thing with that Rochus d. Gaudio match was that Rochus looked so physcially tiny yet he was whipping Gaudio.

RogiFan88
08-15-2005, 03:04 PM
You never saw that Hamburg match betw. Ferrero and Safin then... this was not mere pouting on Marat's part but histrionics, dramatics and drama queen acting worthy of Serenadog.

Gaudio was upset w himself last week because he wants to make the final 8 and it meant a lot to him how well he did in Montreal. At least he isn't mean about it.

Look, every player throws/breaks racquets, throws the occasional tantrum...

Whistleway
08-15-2005, 03:25 PM
I am a huge fan of Roger, but, why you some of you talk bad about nadal's game? He's fun to watch for sure.

I sure get mad that Roger loses to him, but, credit where it is due, i think !!

PamV
08-15-2005, 03:40 PM
I am a huge fan of Roger, but, why you some of you talk bad about nadal's game? He's fun to watch for sure.

I sure get mad that Roger loses to him, but, credit where it is due, i think !!

I don't think he's fun to watch.....I don't like all the overdone fist pumping, grimacing and Jackie Gleason style shuffle stepping. In and of itself I don't see his game interesting but he does manage to win most of the time simply by getting a lot of balls back. The intersting part will be so see how he matches up with players like Safin, Hewitt, Roddick, as well as Federer.

I am not mad about his game.....just don't think it's attractive.

PamV
08-15-2005, 03:44 PM
You never saw that Hamburg match betw. Ferrero and Safin then... this was not mere pouting on Marat's part but histrionics, dramatics and drama queen acting worthy of Serenadog.

Gaudio was upset w himself last week because he wants to make the final 8 and it meant a lot to him how well he did in Montreal. At least he isn't mean about it.

Look, every player throws/breaks racquets, throws the occasional tantrum...

I didn't see that one. I get the Tennis Channel but that one wasn't televised. I don't think the racquet breaking stuff is always that serious....sometimes it's just his way to let off steam and he knows what he's doing.

1sun
08-15-2005, 03:50 PM
I don't think he's fun to watch.....I don't like all the overdone fist pumping, grimacing and Jackie Gleason style shuffle stepping. In and of itself I don't see his game interesting but he does manage to win most of the time simply by getting a lot of balls back. The intersting part will be so see how he matches up with players like Safin, Hewitt, Roddick, as well as Federer.

I am not mad about his game.....just don't think it's attractive.
ditto. the bastard bugs the shit outa me.

ExpectedWinner
08-15-2005, 04:05 PM
Dont forget that fed can volley pretty decently


Well, yes he can. But this year at W he was glued at the baseline, and at the AO came to the net at the wrong times so often, that you almost forget about it. If he decides to s&v most of the time, then I'd lke him to serve a bit harder to get easy put aways.

RogiFan88
08-15-2005, 05:10 PM
So far Henman d Massu and Chela d A Martin who retired.

RogiFan88
08-15-2005, 06:48 PM
O Rochus d Volandri
Santoro d Ljubicic
Horna d C Rochus
Roddick d Melzer
Monfils d Stepanek

WF4EVER
08-15-2005, 07:31 PM
I don't think he's fun to watch.....I don't like all the overdone fist pumping, grimacing and Jackie Gleason style shuffle stepping. In and of itself I don't see his game interesting but he does manage to win most of the time simply by getting a lot of balls back. The intersting part will be so see how he matches up with players like Safin, Hewitt, Roddick, as well as Federer.

I am not mad about his game.....just don't think it's attractive.

This is exactly the way I feel about Nadal's game. I'm not impressed by his game but as long as he's effective what does it matter?

As far as Roger figuring him out, I honestly believe Roger 'knows' what has to be done but the thing is actually doing it. Kinda like how Hewitt dominated him for so long then he turned him into his puppet.

I was actually shocked in the final of Montreal that Nadal gave up a set to Agassi. I thought for sure his persistence and 'fetchability' would have worn Andre down early but Nadal was also very inconsistent. It became apparent to me that what Agassi needed to do was to use the net more but he didn't do it often or effectively enough.

Well, I heard Roger was watching that match so hopefully he has learnt something from it.

I am nervous about Rogi's chances in Cincy because he's been off for so long. I wonder if it's too late for him to get a WC into the PP. I want him to go into the USO with some confidence and some wins too.

Shy
08-15-2005, 10:36 PM
Well, I heard Roger was watching that match so hopefully he has learnt something from it.

I am nervous about Rogi's chances in Cincy because he's been off for so long. I wonder if it's too late for him to get a WC into the PP. I want him to go into the USO with some confidence and some wins too.
If he wants one, they probably would love to give him a WC. I am not weither he has figure Nadal's game out. He almost lost to Nadal in Miami and had lost to him at RG. However, I wonder how representative was the RG match considering that it was Nadal's best surface and Roger's worst.

PamV
08-16-2005, 02:56 AM
WF4EVER:

I agree with your points. I think in Montreal both Agassi and Nadal got tired at times. Nadal managed to recover in the 3rd set. You are right that Agassi didn't use the net effectively enough. He had the right idea about how to move Nadal around. In the end Agassi was just too tired to put up a fight.

yanchr
08-16-2005, 03:49 AM
I am a huge fan of Roger, but, why you some of you talk bad about nadal's game? He's fun to watch for sure.

I sure get mad that Roger loses to him, but, credit where it is due, i think !!
Sorry, but for me he is not fun to watch. I have to be honest to myself, the more I watch him, the more negative emotions produced in me. He is a good and fair player, but I'm not as mighty a person as to give him credit, esp when he beat Roger.

oneandonlyhsn
08-16-2005, 04:15 AM
I am a huge fan of Roger, but, why you some of you talk bad about nadal's game? He's fun to watch for sure.

I sure get mad that Roger loses to him, but, credit where it is due, i think !!

I agree with you, Rafa is exciting in that he puts so much effort into everything and plays with a lot of heart. He is very different from Roger but their offcourt personalities are very similar.
Roger is my favourite player in that I love his personality, demeanour and his beautiful style of play. I think that Rafa is good for Roger mainly because he needs someone to push him. Hewitt and Roddick who were his rivalries cant push Roger, and for him to be great he needs that fire which only comes from having competition. Having said that I want them to have a very balanced rivalry because it makes Roger even more excited to play. JMHO

PamV
08-16-2005, 02:07 PM
Now he's won a lot so I don't think he needs to keep on fist pumping and gritting his teeth all the time after every break. Then he does the side step skip thing which to me looks corny) .

He seems to do that even when he is crushing an opponenet (like Agassi in the 3rd set of Montreal). It is the equivalent of gloating or humiliating the opponent. His fans will say that when he does this it is completely different than when Hewitt does this. I don't see how or why it would be different. In fact I think Hewitt is LESS obnoxious because he doesn't go into his lawn mower man after every break. I hope that as Nadal matures he will settle down and stop all of that because it he's not coming off like some sweet excited new kid on the block any more. He's coming off cheesy and tasteless.

I am not against showing emotion but it shouldn't be over done to the point where it's an automatic action with no true emotion behind it. It should be reserved for truly big moments. How would it be if Roger broke down and cried after ever break of serve in every tournament. Not all emotions are appropriate all the time.

Puschkin
08-16-2005, 02:11 PM
The main thing that I don't like with Nadal is the way he has to fist pump, grit his teeth after each break or after some certain point. In the beginning when he was just starting to win that was OK because I could understand the excitement. Now he's won a lot so I don't think he needs to keep on doing that all the time.

Give the guy a break ;) He is only 19.

PamV
08-16-2005, 02:15 PM
Give the guy a break ;) He is only 19.

He's 19 but he looks like he's 28 and he's won 9 tournaments now. It's about time to settle down just a bit.

Skyward
08-16-2005, 02:30 PM
He's 19 but he looks like he's 28 and he's won 9 tournaments now. It's about time to settle down just a bit.


Coria looks 12. I guess it's inderstandable that he couldn't find his manhood in Australia. :lol:

Dirk
08-16-2005, 04:06 PM
Roger should S/V a lot, he just needs to place the first volley well. Roger is excellent at the net and he can hit a 2nd or 3rd volley if he needs to. The bounces here in Cincy are lower than Canada Brad said so that could be a huge factor with Nadal. It will be harder for him to hit that FH of his. Roger doesn't have to worry about the ball bouncing high up on him. Roger was handling it at RG but just lost his mental lot. :sad: Roger can beat him using any style but he would have it easier if he comes to the net a lot especially on Nadal's serve.

SUKTUEN
08-16-2005, 05:54 PM
Roger must can return Nadal 's serve

RonE
08-16-2005, 06:44 PM
Roger has indeed figured out Nadal's game- in fact, figuring it out is easy- pepper the backhand whenever possible and if you go to the FH hit it deep and forecfully and really go for your shots and make him run a lot.

In theory it is so easy- the hard part is IMPLEMENTING that game plan since it is virtually impossible to keep hitting hard forecful shots (often 10 times in a rally) and make very few errors.

SUKTUEN
08-16-2005, 06:49 PM
GO Roger~

Dirk
08-16-2005, 07:04 PM
Roger needs to come to net a lot during rallies to cut Nadal off or just rally him downtown to cramp city and buy him a nice pair of panties, also let's not forget the cookie shit. :devil:

SUKTUEN
08-16-2005, 07:06 PM
may be play 5 long set Nadal will lost

RogiFan88
08-17-2005, 03:22 AM
I said no but Rogi has a couple of weeks to figure it out now! ;)

oneandonlyhsn
08-17-2005, 03:33 AM
Roger needs to watch Berdychs match against Rafa, I knew it owuld be a tall order for Rafa to win tonight because I saw them play on clay and Rafa had a hard time defeating him. Berdych doesnt even like the dirt, he wasnt affected by the spin, and he flattens out his FH so well. He came to the net a few times just to keep him guessing, although Rafa is a great passer.
I think most players make an unbelievable amount of errors when playing Rafa because they try to do too much, his speed and anticipation of the ball intimidates his opponents.

That Rafa kid is sure something

World Beater
08-17-2005, 04:31 AM
It's a real pity how everyone in Gm is trying to downplay berdych's win. He plays some smooth tennis and has amazing timing. The type of tennis that roger plays.

oneandonlyhsn
08-17-2005, 04:59 AM
It's a real pity how everyone in Gm is trying to downplay berdych's win. He plays some smooth tennis and has amazing timing. The type of tennis that roger plays.

Ditto

Oriental_Rain
08-17-2005, 05:20 AM
I think Roger really needs to have his 1st serves in, attack Nadal's backhand and dont give him any rhythm. We all know how good he[rafa] is in retrieving balls, like he would fight for everything. also need to work on free points.

but dya think Rafa can be a threat to USO?
geez I hope not.

oneandonlyhsn
08-17-2005, 06:40 AM
I think Roger really needs to have his 1st serves in, attack Nadal's backhand and dont give him any rhythm. We all know how good he[rafa] is in retrieving balls, like he would fight for everything. also need to work on free points.

but dya think Rafa can be a threat to USO?
geez I hope not.

At the moment I think yes, he can play on HC. I think Rafas biggest problem on HC would be facing a big server, so I guess it depends on his form and how his draw shapes up.

SUKTUEN
08-17-2005, 02:42 PM
I think Nadal always lost will the match is long~

calimero
08-17-2005, 03:01 PM
I think Rogi can handle Rafa at the usopen if it will comes down to a final!!
Nadal will getting tired, when Rogi is strong.
The last matches of rogi in a tournament are mostly the best of him! :)
So I'm really lookin' forward to see rogi vs rafa in USO!

SUKTUEN
08-17-2005, 03:11 PM
Yes~! NAdal is easy be tired~!!

RogiFan88
08-17-2005, 03:39 PM
Berdych is finally living up to expectations, like Monfils.

Rafa won Roma in a marathon 5-setter... he never quits. Even when he's down or has dropped a set, he'll continue to fight until he wins or not.

Of course he was tired in Cincy and then lost to Berdych in R1.

Remember Rogi losing to Hrbaty [whose best surface is h/c] last year? He was tired too but he had just won TO, Gstaad, Wimbledon, Halle... that's all.

GO, ROGI

SUKTUEN
08-17-2005, 03:44 PM
Rogi losing to Hrbaty [whose best surface is h/c] last year? He was tired too but he had just won TO, Gstaad, Wimbledon, Halle... that's all.
2003?

PamV
08-22-2005, 05:53 PM
At the moment I think yes, he can play on HC. I think Rafas biggest problem on HC would be facing a big server, so I guess it depends on his form and how his draw shapes up.

Rafa can play on HC but I think it depends on the draw he gets. I don't think he's capable of beating everyone on hard court. There would be certain match ups that would be harder than others.

It would be interesting to see if he faces Berdych again if the outcome would be different. I also wonder how he would match up against Ginepri.