London: Man shot by armed police on Tube [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

London: Man shot by armed police on Tube

Douggie Style
07-22-2005, 11:33 AM
A man has been shot at Stockwell Tube station by armed police officers. Passenger Mark Whitby told BBC News he had seen an Asian man shot five times by "plain-clothes police officers" with a handgun.

Passengers were evacuated from the Northern Line station in south London. Police have also cordoned off surrounding streets.

Eyewitnesses say armed police have surrounded a mosque in east London that has been evacuated after a bomb scare.

Police are hunting four would-be bombers after Thursday's London blasts.

The bombers fled after detonators went off, causing small blasts, but failed to detonate the bombs themselves.

Services on the Victoria and Northern lines have been suspended following a request by the police, London Underground said.

Ambulances including an air ambulance have been sent to the scene.

Mr Whitby, told BBC News: "I was sitting on the train reading my paper.

"I heard a load of noise, people saying, 'Get out, get down'!

"I saw an Asian guy run onto the train hotly pursued by three plain-clothes police officers.

"One of them was carrying a black handgun - it looked like an automatic - they pushed him to the floor, bundled on top of him and unloaded five shots into him.

"I saw the gun being fired five times into the guy - he's dead."

Passenger Briony Coetsee said: "We were on the Tube and then we suddenly heard someone say, 'Get out, get out' and then we heard gunshots."


Source: BBC

espanol04
07-22-2005, 03:35 PM
Is he really related to London's explosion on Thursday? At least, police should make an investigation on him.

LaTenista
07-22-2005, 03:39 PM
I used to change lines at Stockwell like everyday. Never in my life would I have predicted it to be the scene of an incident like this :sad:

Nimrodg
07-22-2005, 03:40 PM
Great job by the british police


And where are all the ppl who said that israel aren't allowed to kill people if they are suspect? so i understand that Great Britian allowed :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

joeb_uk
07-22-2005, 03:45 PM
Finally they are walking around with guns, its long overdue!!! Its amazing how long it was that the cops didnt carry guns. Seems they have finally started to man up :yeah:

joeb_uk
07-22-2005, 03:47 PM
The thing is, it seems the bombing two weeks was a trigger for everyone else to try and attempt (we all knew this would happen). Once someone see how easy it is, the rest are going to do it too.

Kudz
07-22-2005, 04:55 PM
Is he really related to London's explosion on Thursday? At least, police should make an investigation on him.
Yes, police have confirmed that he was wanted in connection with the attacks on Thursday.

And where are all the ppl who said that israel aren't allowed to kill people if they are suspect? so i understand that Great Britian allowed :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
The Police are allowed to 'shoot to kill' anyone who they suspect is involved in any terrorist events. The guy was warned by police prior to the gunshots being fired, but as he failed to respond, Police had no choice but to shoot him.


Finally they are walking around with guns, its long overdue!!! Its amazing how long it was that the cops didnt carry guns. Seems they have finally started to man up :yeah:
Not all the Police in the UK are walking round with guns, only the plain clothes Police and the Armed Police. The normal police officers out on patrol aren't carrying guns.

joeb_uk
07-22-2005, 05:33 PM
Yes, police have confirmed that he was wanted in connection with the attacks on Thursday.


The Police are allowed to 'shoot to kill' anyone who they suspect is involved in any terrorist events. The guy was warned by police prior to the gunshots being fired, but as he failed to respond, Police had no choice but to shoot him.



Not all the Police in the UK are walking round with guns, only the plain clothes Police and the Armed Police. The normal police officers out on patrol aren't carrying guns.
aha thanks! I wasnt sure if they were all doing so or not :yeah:

allanah
07-22-2005, 05:40 PM
And where are all the ppl who said that israel aren't allowed to kill people if they are suspect? so i understand that Great Britian allowed :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

That's right Nimrodg, this is all about you. Score as many political points as you can while people are still dazed, raw, confused and terrified.

Kudz
07-22-2005, 07:06 PM
It now turns out that the man shot dead earlier today wasn't one of the suspects wanted in connection with the incidents yesterday but was part of the Anti-Terrorist Investigation.

Police Issue Bomb Suspect Images

Police have issued CCTV images of four men they want to question over the attempted bomb attacks on three Tube trains and a bus in London on Thursday.

Met Assistant Commissioner Andy Hayman said anyone who knew who or where the men were should contact police.

The bombers fled after detonators went off that failed to ignite explosives.

A man shot dead by anti-terror police at Stockwell Tube on Friday was not one of the four suspects. Investigations later led to the arrest of a man.

The man was detained at about 1715 BST in Stockwell, south London.

Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair earlier told a news conference that the fatal Tube station shooting was part of anti-terrorist operations.

Scotland Yard urged anyone who knew the whereabouts of the men captured by CCTV to call 999, or if they could identify any of them to call the anti-terrorist hotline on 0800 789 321.

Police Raids

Officers raided three addresses across the capital on Friday as part of anti-terrorist operations.

That included a search of an address in Harrow Road, west London, where area resident Patricia Osbourne said she heard six shots fired.

Sir Ian told a news conference on Friday that Scotland Yard was facing "the greatest operational challenge" in its history.

Officers hunting Thursday's would-be bombers were facing "previously unknown threats and great danger", he said.

"This operation is targeted against criminals - not any community or section of a community," Sir Ian added.

Thursday's attacks began at about 1230 BST, with bombs at Warren Street station, central London, Shepherd's Bush station in the west, Oval in the south and on a bus in Shoreditch, east London.

Along with the CCTV images, police revealed details they believed about the suspects' movements:

- The first image showed a man in a black sweater running away from Oval station's Northern Line at 1234 BST on Thursday. Police believe he had travelled north from Stockwell. His top was later found in nearby Brixton.

- The second image showed a man on the number 26 bus travelling from Waterloo to Hackney Wick. He got off the bus at Hackney Road at about 1306 BST.

- The third image showed a man leaving Warren Street station at 1239 BST.

- Police believe the man pictured at Westbourne Park station at 1221 BST travelled west on the Hammersmith and City Line to Shepherd's Bush, where he ran from the station.

Following the incidents, streets were cordoned off, parts of the transport network closed and stations evacuated, but no-one was badly hurt.

Two men, one arrested in Whitehall, close to Downing Street, and another around Tottenham Court Road, were later released without charge.

Three of the devices found were the same size and weight as those used for the 7 July London bombings, while the fourth was smaller and appeared to have been contained in a plastic box. The same chemicals appear to have been used.

Assistant Commissioner Hayman told the news conference: "At this stage it is believed the devices consisted of homemade explosives and were contained in dark coloured bags or rucksacks. It is too early to tell how these were detonated."

Sir Ian said on Thursday: "Clearly the intention must have been to kill. You don't do this with any other intention."

'Forensic Bingo'


Former government intelligence analyst Crispin Black said the chance to examine the bombs themselves was "forensic bingo", saying: "This is as good as it gets."

BBC security correspondent Gordon Corera told BBC Radio 4's Today programme the devices were so similar there was speculation they could have been part of the same batch.

"The explosive might have degraded over time or had not been put together right in this case, or it could have been a completely different batch of explosives - homemade - that had not been cooked up properly."

The bombers' plan might have been disrupted by the investigation into the 7 July attacks, forcing them to act before they had been fully prepared, Corera added.

Some witnesses said the Thursday's attackers seemed "scared" or "surprised" when their bombs failed to explode properly.

Source: BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706421.stm)

*Ljubica*
07-22-2005, 07:17 PM
They've got one of them now though - Sky says they've just arrested a guy at Stockwell thought to be the one who planted the bomb at the Oval - assumingly the shot man was something to do with him. They have also arrested a man at Birmingham with two "suspect" suitcases.

GermanBoy
07-22-2005, 07:27 PM
Has it been confirmed yet that he was a terrorist? :confused: However, why should he run away if he was innocent? :shrug:

*Ljubica*
07-22-2005, 09:31 PM
Has it been confirmed yet that he was a terrorist? :confused: However, why should he run away if he was innocent? :shrug:

All they're saying so far is that he had "links to the terrorists" - think he was from the same address as the bomber who was subsequently arrested - but the Police can't say too much publically at this stage I guess as it might jeopardise their plans to catch the other 3 men.

Kudz
07-22-2005, 09:33 PM
Has it been confirmed yet that he was a terrorist? :confused: However, why should he run away if he was innocent? :shrug:
See article below....

Police have said a man shot dead by police at Stockwell Tube station in south London is "directly linked" to anti-terrorist operations.

Scotland Yard said the man shot dead at about 1000 BST on Friday in Stockwell had still to be formally identified.

He was being under police observation because he had emerged from a house that was being watched following Thursday's attacks, a spokesman said.

The man was followed by surveillance officers to Stockwell station, where his clothing and behaviour added to their suspicions, he added.

Sir Ian told a press conference: "I need to make clear that any death is deeply regrettable but as I understand the situation the man was challenged and refused to obey police instructions."

The circumstances of the shooting are being investigated and will be scrutinised by the Independent Police Complaints Commission, Scotland Yard added.

Full article BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706787.stm)

GermanBoy
07-22-2005, 09:43 PM
I think the police acted right. Who knows what might have happened. I don`t want to be in the center of an explosion, so why should the police "protect" these people... Our lives are much more important.

Stevens Point
07-23-2005, 05:11 PM
CNN Breaking News, "Scotland Yard: Man "not connected" to case" Scotland Yard "regrets" of death of the man.

Stevens Point
07-23-2005, 05:13 PM
This is really bad. How did they judge at the time that they had to shoot this man to death??? How!?

undomiele
07-23-2005, 05:24 PM
The cops didnt have to shoot to kill in the first place. They could have aimed for the legs, and if the suspect pulls out a gun then or something while down, then thats when they ought to have shot to kill.

The police were obviously trigger-happy. I don't blame them though... with all thats going on.

Stevens Point
07-23-2005, 05:35 PM
One less, good job ! :worship:
good job for what!?

Marine
07-23-2005, 05:52 PM
Ohh I didn't know the man killed wasn't connected to the attacks. Now my sentence had non sense of course.
Sorry

*Ljubica*
07-23-2005, 06:19 PM
The cops didnt have to shoot to kill in the first place. They could have aimed for the legs, and if the suspect pulls out a gun then or something while down, then thats when they ought to have shot to kill.

The police were obviously trigger-happy. I don't blame them though... with all thats going on.


The reason this is such a huge story here is that British Police do not generally carry guns - it is unheard of here apart from a small, elite force of "special forces" dealing with terrorism. They say that if they don't "shoot to kill" it still gives a suspect time to detonate a suicide bomb device concealed on his person that would kill many innocent people. This guy refused to stop when apprehended after he was seen leaving a house that was already under surveillance in connection with the bomb attacks - he was wearing a very heavy coat on a boiling hot day, and when he ran onto the tube the Police naturally assumed he had "something to hide" and could well set off a device that would kill hundreds of people. Of course it is sad that he turned out to be innocent - though I would question if he really was that innocent if he was walking in and out of a known "safe" house :rolleyes: British Police are not trigger happy at all - in fact some would argue that if they had been tougher in the past, things would not be so bad here now - I don't blame the Police involved at all - if he had been carrying a bomb they would be "heroes" now.

Kudz
07-23-2005, 06:51 PM
The reason this is such a huge story here is that British Police do not generally carry guns - it is unheard of here apart from a small, elite force of "special forces" dealing with terrorism. They say that if they don't "shoot to kill" it still gives a suspect time to detonate a suicide bomb device concealed on his person that would kill many innocent people. This guy refused to stop when apprehended after he was seen leaving a house that was already under surveillance in connection with the bomb attacks - he was wearing a very heavy coat on a boiling hot day, and when he ran onto the tube the Police naturally assumed he had "something to hide" and could well set off a device that would kill hundreds of people. Of course it is sad that he turned out to be innocent - though I would question if he really was that innocent if he was walking in and out of a known "safe" house :rolleyes: British Police are not trigger happy at all - in fact some would argue that if they had been tougher in the past, things would not be so bad here now - I don't blame the Police involved at all - if he had been carrying a bomb they would be "heroes" now.
Well said Rosie!

I completely agree with you!

Douggie Style
07-23-2005, 06:52 PM
Rosie :worship:

jenanun
07-23-2005, 06:56 PM
their mistake caused one innocent life......

but then, even if he is not a bomber, there must be something going on with him (maybe he is a drug dealer or something... ), or he wouldnt have to run....

couldnt really blame the police, as we have to understand, there are still 4 bombers out there on the run, and they may try to finish their mission anytime anywhere in the country.....

Kudz
07-23-2005, 07:05 PM
I found this article with regard to 'shooting to kill'.

I'll just post snippets of it as it's quite long, however the full article can be read here! (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4708373.stm)

The police deployment of firearms is governed by a manual published by the Association of Police Officers, last revised in February 2005.

It is not true to say that police officers must identify themselves or shout a warning when confronting a suspect believed to pose a grave and imminent threat.

The manual says that that procedure "should be considered" but recognises that the key aim of an operation is to "identify, locate, contain and neutralise" the threat posed.

In many situations, this would require the suspect to stop moving and put his hands in view.

That would not necessarily apply when the police are faced with a suspected suicide bomber.

The aim of opening fire is to stop an imminent threat to life. The most effective means of incapacitating a suspect is to shoot at the central body mass which contains the central nervous system.

This is what the police mean by "shooting to stop".

A head shot against a possibly moving target is more difficult to achieve.

However, the police have taken advice from officers in countries such as Israel and Sri Lanka which have long experience of suicide attacks.

Their advice is that if a suspect clearly has no intention of surrendering, the armed officer should attempt to aim for the head or lower limbs to prevent a suicide belt being detonated.

Source: BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4708373.stm)

Nimrodg
07-23-2005, 07:43 PM
The police did the right thing. although they couldn't knew if he is a terrorist or not, i've got a feeling that he didn't ran just like that. He wear a big black coat, ran from the police and refused to stop - the police can't take risk and no doing anything. I'm sorry for this guy but he brought it on himself because he had to stop when the police asked.

The police over there got a lot of work now to stop the terror, as far as i heard there was a poll between the muslims in london and something like 24% can understand the terrorists.

undomiele
07-23-2005, 08:03 PM
I see your point Rosie. Its sad this had to happen though. There will be a lot of tension between the native muslim population and the rest - this was a harbinger of what will come. :sad:

The police over there got a lot of work now to stop the terror, as far as i heard there was a poll between the muslims in london and something like 24% can understand the terrorists.

The 24% understand the motives behind the acts, but don't approve of the methods - not everybody can be happy about what was an illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq. :rolleyes: I know Im not.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2005/07/23/1121539177740.html?from=top5&oneclick=true

The good news is that support for Bin Laden among muslims across the world has dramatically gone down. As this article states:

http://www.theadvertiser.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,15944110%255E912,00.html

Stevens Point
07-23-2005, 08:06 PM
Well, there isn't much information about this tragedy, but I had some thoughts on this incident...

To the question: why didn't he obey the police and didn't stop?
1. As someone mentioned above, he might have been some kind of criminal... A thief, a robber, a drug dealer, etc...
or
2. He didn't recognize the situation completely. They say he was a south Asian, (or he had an Asian face). I heard that the police officers who were there were not wearing the police uniform but normal clothes. Maybe he failed to recognize that they were police officers. IF his English was poor and didn't understand what they were saying, all he could trust was what he saw... a few men shouting at him and chasing him with guns. Maybe he thought he was going to be robbed by these gangstars and maybe killed... If he really thought like that at that quick moment, having not much time to think about it, I could understand that his first choice of act was to run away...

This thought reminded me of another tragedy which happened 10 years ago in the US. A Japanese high school exchange student with a Halloween costume on was to visit a Halloween party but arrived at a wrong house on Halloween evening. He rang the bell and the man in the house got suspicious and opened the door with a gun pointing at him, shouting "freeze". He walked towards the house and the man shot him. He was dead there. Judging from his English knowledge, they think he might have misunderstood "freeze" as "please," and he might have thought the gun pointing was a Halloween action like "trick or treat."

I'm sorry for bringing up another story, but the news this man was innocent really made me think...

Nimrodg
07-23-2005, 08:24 PM
The 24% understand the motives behind the acts, but don't approve of the methods - not everybody can be happy about what was an illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq. :rolleyes: I know Im not.


Oh, so they were happy before US got into Iraq? i think that the terror in iraq don't represent all the people in Iraq. Those who doing it in iraq doing it also in London.

AND NO. I can't understand people who protesting and showing they're power by killing innocent , this is sick.

Kudz
07-23-2005, 08:40 PM
2. He didn't recognize the situation completely. They say he was a south Asian, (or he had an Asian face). I heard that the police officers who were there were not wearing the police uniform but normal clothes. Maybe he failed to recognize that they were police officers. IF his English was poor and didn't understand what they were saying, all he could trust was what he saw... a few men shouting at him and chasing him with guns. Maybe he thought he was going to be robbed by these gangstars and maybe killed... If he really thought like that at that quick moment, having not much time to think about it, I could understand that his first choice of act was to run away...
I suppose this is possible, but from what I understand the Police did identify themselves but I guess in the confusion he may not have heard etc. However it's rare that anyone is chased by someone carrying a gun in London unless they were the police, not that I'm saying it wouldn't happen. Anyway unless they've been out in space, everyone in London knows what's been happening recently so in the circumstance's the majority of the people would have realized that it was the police.

Another little development which has been released is that a package that had been found now looks like it may be connected to the incidents on Thursday.

Police also confirmed a "suspicious package" found in north-west London may be linked to Thursday's failed attacks.

The package was found by a member of the public in bushes in Little Wormwood Scrubs on Saturday morning.

A Scotland Yard spokesman said: "Explosives officers attended the scene. An initial examination suggests that the object may be linked to devices found at four locations in London on July 21."

Police said it would be subject to "detailed forensic analysis".

Police have also raided a house in Streatham Hill, south London, in connection with the failed attacks.

Source: BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4711021.stm)

*Ljubica*
07-23-2005, 08:57 PM
Oh, so they were happy before US got into Iraq? i think that the terror in iraq don't represent all the people in Iraq. Those who doing it in iraq doing it also in London.

AND NO. I can't understand people who protesting and showing they're power by killing innocent , this is sick.

I agree. Must say, following on from what Kudz says - it terrifies me that even 2% of people living here understand the terrorists - let alone 24%. It also scared me that the same poll said over 90% thought of themselves as Muslim first and not British. And you're right - it's sick - they say one of this week's bombers (whose bomb failed to detonate) had placed himself on a tube sitting directly next to a Mother with a very young baby - how sick is that :devil:

Kudz
07-23-2005, 09:01 PM
And you're right - it's sick - they say one of this week's bombers (whose bomb failed to detonate) had placed himself on a tube sitting directly next to a Mother with a very young baby - how sick is that :devil:
I hadn't heard that about the baby.

That's the thing with terrorists though, they don't care who they hurt, men, women, old or young, it's all the same to them!

Nimrodg
07-23-2005, 09:09 PM
And in the same time that terror organizations are activating in london, london's mayor saying that he can understand the Hamas.

Tennis_Mad
07-23-2005, 09:28 PM
I think the main problem was the man didn't stop and ran into a Undergroud station which clearly in the current situation is likely to cause a major worry for the police and they couldn't take the risk.

undomiele
07-23-2005, 10:40 PM
I think its monstrous that certain terrorists believe its justified detonating themselves in transport systems because theyre pissed about x, y and z. Just as I also think its monstruous that countries like the US and UK think they were justified in invading, bombing and occupying a foreign country out of a bullshit pretext of WMD's. Thousands of everyday citizens have horribly died in Iraq - more than they ever will in the US or UK IMO - and the actual numbers aren't even being reported in the media of those respective countries. Now that, my friend, is sick. Who - the people heading these governments or the terrorists- is sicker I don't know. But they both have blood on their hands and trying to fix it with force and weapons just isn't going to cut it anymore. The world has changed. And the terrorists will be striking back for what they -rightly or not- perceive to be injustices. All the armies and the security in the world, ultimately, won't be able to make a difference in this regard. You know it, I know it.

Now the sooner ppl realise who really is accountable for whats going on -Bush and Blair - the better. But for that, ppl in the UK and the US have to stop playing the innocent victims here and acknowledge that there are *perfectly legitimate* reasons as to why ppl across the world - not just arabs and muslims - are pissed with American and to a lesser degree UK foreign policy and "somewhat sympathize" with the terrorists. I can assure you Ppl here in Argentina and the rest of South America are absolutely disgusted about what is going on in Iraq and the recent terrorist bombings in Europe. But even to us its perfectly obvious that what is going in Iraq is linked to the bombings. Why? Cos what the US and UK is doing in Iraq cannot be described as anything other than injust, illegal, opportunistic and wrong on almost every level, so of course we South Americans are going to somewhat understand things from the terrorist's point of view.

Just today I had to argue with 3 of my friends here in Argentina because they all believe the CIA was completely behind the September 11 attacks and that the Pentagon hit wasn't actually a plane but a US military missile!!! Absolutely crazy stuff!!!And my friends are common, everyday Argentines with no connection to Middle Eastern issues at all. But thats how much a lot of ppl here hate the US. And if thats how argentina feels about it, small wonder some crazy muslims, who have a much bigger stake in the issue, are going to resort to blowing themselves up in supposed retaliation to whats going on in the Middle East. :rolleyes:

As for the British, lets just say their historical role of world-wide conquest and subjection of 3rd world countries has been pretty much unsurpassed, but hey thats just water under the bridge right? Theyre no longer the top dog in the world, the US is, but what they did -through Blair- in following the US to Iraq over the heads of the UN instead of reprimanding US plans like France and Germany did wasn't just plain wrong, it was vile. And as a democracy, the people in the US and UK have to be somewhat accountable for that. You can't just blame the politician all the time when its convenient.

In the meantime, more ppl have died in explosions in Egypt and I bet the media in the US and UK are still giving the recent UK incident of one innocent man being killed more coverage. The irony of this here disgusts me. I tell you - never underestimate the human capacity for sheer self-absorption in world affairs...

Nimrodg
07-23-2005, 11:23 PM
I think its monstrous that certain terrorists believe its justified detonating themselves in transport systems because theyre pissed about x, y and z. Just as I also think its monstruous that countries like the US and UK think they were justified in invading, bombing and occupying a foreign country out of a bullshit pretext of WMD's. Thousands of everyday citizens have horribly died in Iraq - more than they ever will in the US or UK IMO - and the actual numbers aren't even being reported in the media of those respective countries. Now that, my friend, is sick. Who - the people heading these governments or the terrorists- is sicker I don't know. But they both have blood on their hands and trying to fix it with force and weapons just isn't going to cut it anymore. The world has changed. And the terrorists will be striking back for what they -rightly or not- perceive to be injustices. All the armies and the security in the world, ultimately, won't be able to make a difference in this regard. You know it, I know it.

Now the sooner ppl realise who really is accountable for whats going on -Bush and Blair - the better. But for that, ppl in the UK and the US have to stop playing the innocent victims here and acknowledge that there are *perfectly legitimate* reasons as to why ppl across the world - not just arabs and muslims - are pissed with American and to a lesser degree UK foreign policy and "somewhat sympathize" with the terrorists. I can assure you Ppl here in Argentina and the rest of South America are absolutely disgusted about what is going on in Iraq and the recent terrorist bombings in Europe. But even to us its perfectly obvious that what is going in Iraq is linked to the bombings. Why? Cos what the US and UK is doing in Iraq cannot be described as anything other than injust, illegal, opportunistic and wrong on almost every level, so of course we South Americans are going to somewhat understand things from the terrorist's point of view.
...

I think you forgot when was the 11 of september. Because U.S didn't do nothing and they were a victim for a terror attack.
And i think your way of thinking is wrong. The US can't let the terror beat them - they are stronger and they can destroy the terror. i don't think that they spending they're time in Iraq for fun, US AND GREAT BRITIAN wants to stop the terror !!
Sorry, but the situtation in iraq was worser before us and GB got there. If they will go out now from iraq the terrorists will think that you can solve every issue in terror.

CocoT_Do
07-23-2005, 11:25 PM
It's just a SHAME !!!
All this is a shame !!

undomiele
07-24-2005, 01:25 AM
I think you forgot when was the 11 of september. Because U.S didn't do nothing and they were a victim for a terror attack.

Oh please, the US was completely blameless for what happened to them in September 11th??? Ha. What a joke. They were the ones who trained Bin Laden and his minions in Afghanistan in the first place and were cozying up to Saddam well before September 11th. Check this pic out:

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/


And yeah thats a George Washington University source for you - one of the premier American academic institutions on FAffairs. I suggest you read that website page. You'd learn quite a bit about the truth of whats really been going on.

And i think your way of thinking is wrong. The US can't let the terror beat them - they are stronger and they can destroy the terror. i don't think that they spending they're time in Iraq for fun, US AND GREAT BRITIAN wants to stop the terror !!

Youre delusional. Even Bush himself admitted that the war on terrorism couldn't be won. :rolleyes: Sure, the US and UK want to stop the terror but invading a country that has nothihg to do with BIN LADEN was hardly the right way to go about it, now was it? :retard:

Sorry, but the situtation in iraq was worser before us and GB got there. If they will go out now from iraq the terrorists will think that you can solve every issue in terror.

The West and the UK in particular had everything to do with Iraq. Winston Churchill was the one who drew up the current Iraqi border -forcing tribes that absolutely hate eachother to live together against their will. The same thing was imposed on the rival ethnic populations of Yugoslavia after the WW's and look how that experiment ended - a bloody civil war throughout the 1990s. Just the way Chalabi is currently treating the minority Sunni population right now is horribly indicative with whats going to happen after the US leaves - the harbinger of what will undoubtedly be a bloody civil war. No doubt about it. That civil war will happen. Thanks to stupid first world countries who first, made Saddam AND Bin Laden possible, and perenially followed it up with mistake after international mistake.

And keep in mind that Iraq became a haven for terrorists only after Saddam was kicked out of power. The iraqi population was the most educated, developed arab population in the middle east before Saddam and now the terrorists are having a field day. The invasion helped Osama Bin Laden, it didn't hurt him. Thats exactly what he wanted the West to do - to prove him right that the West was after the Middle East and their oil. Congratulations Bush, Blair - you guys played right into his hands. YOU IDIOTS.

*Ljubica*
07-24-2005, 01:44 PM
I'm sorry Undomiele - but I can't agree with you at all. September 11th happened before the Iraq invasion - and so did the Lockerbie atrocitiy which killed over 200 innocent people (many of them children and villagers in Scotland) way back in the 1980's. I am not a big fan of the US or their policies (and I can't stand Bush), but to say he and Blair and the Iraq invasion are responsible for the latest terrorist situation in Europe and the West is far too simplistic. And even though we are such hideous Imperialists here in the UK - if you saw the "peace camp" that has been made outside Westminster attacking Blair etc for the past few years - you must surely see that we are a democracy that allows freedom of speech and of religious persuasion in a way that these terrorists cannot ever understand and are wishing to destroy. As for your opinions on the Argentine view of things - well - obviously you live there - but on a personal note, my partner is from South America and his family still live there - and I can assure you that none of them feel like that at all.

Nimrodg
07-24-2005, 01:50 PM
Well said Rosie - and i think you can't understand from there the terror until it hurts you to in some way. I mean you can't know how is it to live in fear and to afraid to travel in bus.
you are comparing between US in iraq and terrorists and this is sick. US wants to solve iraq's problem and the terrorist wants to kill innocent people.

*Ljubica*
07-24-2005, 02:12 PM
Well said Rosie - and i think you can't understand from there the terror until it hurts you to in some way. I mean you can't know how is it to live in fear and to afraid to travel in bus.
you are comparing between US in iraq and terrorists and this is sick. US wants to solve iraq's problem and the terrorist wants to kill innocent people.


When I was growing up in London in the 1970's we were more than used to terror from the IRA - but somehow this is different. The IRA always gave warnings, they didn't blow themselves up - and at least they had a definate political objective (freedom and unity for Ireland), and were prepared to negotiate and discuss things round a table - these terrorists are just scum - I was going to say animals but that is not fair on animals :devil:

buddyholly
07-24-2005, 02:59 PM
Thousands of everyday citizens have horribly died in Iraq - more than they ever will in the US or UK IMO - and the actual numbers aren't even being reported in the media of those respective countries.

I do not have the numbers but have seen an estimate of maybe 2 MILLION everyday Iraqui citizens dying horribly at the hands of the Saddam regime. So if you are only interested in body counts, then to put it bluntly, things are much better in Iraq today for the everyday citizens than they were under Saddam. But by your views Iraquis killed by Iraquis don't count.

What do you mean the numbers today are not being reported in the media? Only in your own head. This is just your blindness to reality. Every bombing is reported in great detail with numbers and whether the victims are police, civilians, children etc. You have lost touch with reality in your hatred of the US.

And today, people are being killed horribly by Muslim terrorists - and you blame Bush and Blair!

Hardly even worth mentioning the usual nonsense in your post about the British empire. If I remember correctly, Spain made an empire of an entire continent, with unspeakable treatment of the conquered peoples.

buddyholly
07-24-2005, 03:43 PM
The world has changed. And the terrorists will be striking back for what they -rightly or not- perceive to be injustices.

Have you asked yourself why these terrorists, non-Iraquis it appears, are striking back so viciously against normal, everyday Iraquis who just want to get on with living in a democratic Iraq?

buddyholly
07-24-2005, 03:48 PM
Just today I had to argue with 3 of my friends here in Argentina because they all believe the CIA was completely behind the September 11 attacks and that the Pentagon hit wasn't actually a plane but a US military missile!!! Absolutely crazy stuff!!!

What is the point here, other than to tell us your friends have problems differentiating between reality and nonsense?

buddyholly
07-24-2005, 03:57 PM
but what they did -through Blair- in following the US to Iraq over the heads of the UN instead of reprimanding US plans like France and Germany did wasn't just plain wrong, it was vile.

I think it has been documented that the UN, Fench politicians and possibly Germans were mostly interested in not having documents come to light showing how they were involved with Saddam in ripping off the Iraqui people through the oil-for-food programme. And besides, Kofi was too busy deflecting attention from the Muslim genocide of Christians in Dafur so that he could hang onto his job in New York, not to mention covering up for his son's dealings in Iraq.

buddyholly
07-24-2005, 04:10 PM
In the meantime, more ppl have died in explosions in Egypt and I bet the media in the US and UK are still giving the recent UK incident of one innocent man being killed more coverage. The irony of this here disgusts me. I tell you - never underestimate the human capacity for sheer self-absorption in world affairs...

And you finish up with a paragraph that makes no sense at all. By your standards, wouldn't you rather accuse the UK media of NOT mentioning the fact that the man killed was not related to the bombings. As for the Egyptian and Baghdad terrorist attacks, a simple check of the BBC and CNN shows that you lose your bet.

undomiele
07-25-2005, 02:31 AM
Buddy buddy. I put you on ignore a full week ago. I have no desire to read your dribble. its all blah blah blah to me anyway.

buddyholly
07-25-2005, 03:06 AM
I knew your response would be just personal insults to cover up what you really feel, which is, ''I can't defend my previous statements.''
But at least you left out your trademark rolling eyes this time.

Dirk
07-25-2005, 03:11 AM
Buddy don't listen or even bother with the commie that is Undomelie. The news stations in the US covered the bombing in Egypt and have covered them all during the past few years. As for what happened in the UK, the police did exactly the right thing. The fucker wants to jump over a ticket booth rail and then not stop when he knows he is being chased by police and refusing to stop after asking him to do so, then he deserves to be shot given the situation over there in the past few days.

buddyholly
07-25-2005, 03:21 AM
undiomele expresses herself well and I respect her posts. The problem is that when someone disagrees with her opinions she covers her ears and refuses to listen to the ''fools'' who disagree. I wish I could be so sure that all my opinions are infallible.

Tragically, if someone in a heavy coat jumps a turnstile in the Underground and runs into a crowded car these days, then there is only one thing the police CAN do.

undomiele
07-25-2005, 03:37 AM
I'm sorry Undomiele - but I can't agree with you at all. September 11th happened before the Iraq invasion - and so did the Lockerbie atrocitiy which killed over 200 innocent people (many of them children and villagers in Scotland) way back in the 1980's.

Rosie - who I know is an intelligent person (ahem! dirk, buddyholly=not ;) ) - youre not differentiating terrorist groups. The ppl who bombed lockerbie are not the same ppl who bombed london a couple of weeks ago. Nor are these two groups related to the IRA. Completely different people, with different goals and objectives use the terrorist METHOD, which is just that a method. If you don't differentiate the groups, then youre never going to understand the context of the problem, the issues at hand, much less see or understand a viable solution.

By focusing on solely the sickness of the method of terrorism you risk failing to understand the peculiar circumstances behind each organisation. Colombian paramilataries and drug lords use terrorist tactics to fight over land and drugs, do they deserve to be placed in the same boat as Al-Qaeda? Or to Shining Path? or the IRA? Absolutely not. It would be preposterous to assume that all countries that have used the METHOD of war, ie: armies, guns, tanks, etc, were all fighting for the same end. Yet war is "sick" as well! Distinguishing causes here is key if you want to ultimately disable the tactic. You won't beat terrorism with guns and tanks. It hasn't worked in Iraq even, it certainly isn't going to work for the West.

I am not a big fan of the US or their policies (and I can't stand Bush), but to say he and Blair and the Iraq invasion are responsible for the latest terrorist situation in Europe and the West is far too simplistic.

And yet that is what AL-Qaeda openly claimed on their website, which has actually been confirmed by the authorities although Blair and Bush are doing their best to obfuscate the fact. It is also the same thing believed by many of your fellow britons. As this poll indicates: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000100&sid=aKa2KU0tETDo

2/3's of the brits think there IS a causal link.

As for your opinions on the Argentine view of things - well - obviously you live there - but on a personal note, my partner is from South America and his family still live there - and I can assure you that none of them feel like that at all.

Where is he from?

Actually Argentina along with Uruguay are the most anti-war -but then these two countries are the most educated along with the Chileans. A lot of the population in places like Bolivia and Paraguay are more understandably concerned with putting food on the table then whats going on over in Iraq. But I do remember there were some recent Miami Herald figures on how latin american countries have consistently polled against US policy in Iraq. Ill get them for you need me to.

http://english.pravda.ru/main/2003/02/05/42999.html

And even though we are such hideous Imperialists here in the UK - if you saw the "peace camp" that has been made outside Westminster attacking Blair etc for the past few years - you must surely see that we are a democracy that allows freedom of speech and of religious persuasion in a way that these terrorists cannot ever understand and are wishing to destroy.

You, Rosie, can hardly know or understand what these terrorists want if you already are having problems differentiating them in the first place. And basing your opinion on what your politicians tell you -ie: Blair and that this is all about democracy- is silly. They are known liars who are going to distort and represent things the way they want you to understand it, that makes them and the UK look blameless. (Bush had assured Americans that Iraqis were going to greet them with flowers on the street@@!! :lol: Who the hell is he, or Blair for that matter, to know what Iraqis think or feel??? They don't know nor care about Iraqis feel. Ultimately the only thing they care about are what their own voters feel. Period.) You have to question everything these politicos say. Blair, in particularly, is one smooth talker but he won't even admit what Al-Qaeda has openly stated - that British involvement in Iraq is to blame for this.

The Spanish people, and most of the Britons aren't having problems understanding that the terrorists are pissed about you guys being in Iraq. Its as clear as day.

As for the larger issues, of the muslim ppl hating democracy, (terrorists are extremists - they don't represent the ppl) that couldnt be farther from the truth. The Saudi Arabian royals, for example, *completely* control their country - where BTW most of the terrorists, including Bin Laden, hail from- as an open oligarchy when all their ppl have been wanting and clamouring for is a democracy!!! But that will impossible so long as the US and Europe continue to openly support the royals, and their oligarchy, for cheap oil at the expense of the ppl. The terrorists don't need bombs to destroy democracy in the 3rd world, the US and now the UK had been doing a wonderful job doing that all on their own.

NATAS81
07-25-2005, 06:30 AM
Where's the thread about 36 Israeli's bombed?

Jim Jones
07-26-2005, 12:14 AM
Now the sooner ppl realise who really is accountable for whats going on -Bush and Blair - the better. But for that, ppl in the UK and the US have to stop playing the innocent victims here and acknowledge that there are *perfectly legitimate* reasons as to why ppl across the world - not just arabs and muslims - are pissed with American and to a lesser degree UK foreign policy and "somewhat sympathize" with the terrorists. I can assure you Ppl here in Argentina and the rest of South America are absolutely disgusted about what is going on in Iraq and the recent terrorist bombings in Europe. But even to us its perfectly obvious that what is going in Iraq is linked to the bombings. Why? Cos what the US and UK is doing in Iraq cannot be described as anything other than injust, illegal, opportunistic and wrong on almost every level, so of course we South Americans are going to somewhat understand things from the terrorist's point of view.

Just today I had to argue with 3 of my friends here in Argentina because they all believe the CIA was completely behind the September 11 attacks and that the Pentagon hit wasn't actually a plane but a US military missile!!! Absolutely crazy stuff!!!And my friends are common, everyday Argentines with no connection to Middle Eastern issues at all. But thats how much a lot of ppl here hate the US. And if thats how argentina feels about it, small wonder some crazy muslims, who have a much bigger stake in the issue, are going to resort to blowing themselves up in supposed retaliation to whats going on in the Middle East.

As for the British, lets just say their historical role of world-wide conquest and subjection of 3rd world countries has been pretty much unsurpassed, but hey thats just water under the bridge right? Theyre no longer the top dog in the world, the US is, but what they did -through Blair- in following the US to Iraq over the heads of the UN instead of reprimanding US plans like France and Germany did wasn't just plain wrong, it was vile. And as a democracy, the people in the US and UK have to be somewhat accountable for that. You can't just blame the politician all the time when its convenient.

In the meantime, more ppl have died in explosions in Egypt and I bet the media in the US and UK are still giving the recent UK incident of one innocent man being killed more coverage. The irony of this here disgusts me. I tell you - never underestimate the human capacity for sheer self-absorption in world affairs...
shut up with your Bush and Blair. Is that all you think about? What about the Paris bombings 10 years ago by Islamist radicals. Who are you going to blame that on, Bush senior? Go back to school and learn a thing or two or if you want to to post then think before doing so.
Seeing what you said about your friends all you proved is to show how completely ignorant they are. Congratulations.
Also the British were complaining recently that Americans were thinking too much about 9/11. If country is not victim to bombings they don't understand until it happens to them.
I cannot respect what you write since you fail to answer people who criticize you. Also you say that Rosie is more intelligent than this or that person. How do you know? Just because she is a liberal like you. Godamn communist. You talk about the British, what about the Spanish, huh?

Nimrodg
07-26-2005, 12:33 AM
Where's the thread about 36 Israeli's bombed?

about what? :)

buddyholly
07-26-2005, 02:11 PM
The ppl who bombed lockerbie are not the same ppl who bombed london a couple of weeks ago.

The people who bombed Lockerbie? I am beginning to realise you have no idea what you are talking about? Nobody bombed Lockerbie.

Denaon
07-26-2005, 02:18 PM
:topic: I did not know this thread was started, I would have not started the other one :lol: That's why I'm trying to get a Breaking News Subforum here in Non -Tennis :topic:

Kudz
07-26-2005, 03:08 PM
The people who bombed Lockerbie? I am beginning to realise you have no idea what you are talking about? Nobody bombed Lockerbie.
They're talking about the Lockerbie disaster in 1988 when Pan Am flight 103 exploded above it killing 270 people.