Do you think the Race system should be suppressed ? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Do you think the Race system should be suppressed ?

TheMightyFed
04-20-2005, 08:48 PM
This race gives me headache because people talk about Marat becoming no 1, Nadal becoming no 1, I mean, there is only one number 1: RF. At Lendl time there was no confusion on who the boss was. That's why I did that poll

Chloe le Bopper
04-20-2005, 08:58 PM
The problem isn't the race, it's how the race has been promoted to the point that some people/media outlets act like it is the official ranking list. I would have no problem if they kept up the race but stopped promoting it until oh, November when it actually matters.

aceit
04-20-2005, 09:00 PM
The problem isn't the race, it's how the race has been promoted to the point that some people/media outlets act like it is the official ranking list. I would have no problem if they kept up the race but stopped promoting it until oh, November when it actually matters.
I agree with all you said.

Denaon
04-20-2005, 09:02 PM
Well, it is a race, no matters where you're in a certain point of it, it matters your position at the end..
I like it ;)

TheMightyFed
04-20-2005, 09:07 PM
The problem isn't the race, it's how the race has been promoted to the point that some people/media outlets act like it is the official ranking list. I would have no problem if they kept up the race but stopped promoting it until oh, November when it actually matters.
this time I agree with you, it should be renamed "the Masters Cup qualification race" and give only the top 8 from November on.

Denaon
04-20-2005, 09:14 PM
A race is always a race....*chinese proverb* :D

joske
04-20-2005, 09:40 PM
lol

I like it too.. especially bc of that Rochus aspect ;)

Fee
04-20-2005, 09:54 PM
What of bunch of race-ists....

I don't like it and agree with the compromise suggestion that the Race results should not be published until after Roland Garros. It's mostly irrelevant anyway since the Top 10 entry and Top 10 race are usually the same by the middle of October anyway.

Denaon
04-20-2005, 09:56 PM
BTW mdhubert :ras:
I'll always give you :ras: for acussing me of laughing of nothing :lol:
:fiery: :ras:

Federerhingis
04-20-2005, 10:49 PM
The problem isn't the race, it's how the race has been promoted to the point that some people/media outlets act like it is the official ranking list. I would have no problem if they kept up the race but stopped promoting it until oh, November when it actually matters.

very true indeed!

Federerhingis
04-20-2005, 10:50 PM
I guess all the hype about the race ranking is just to show whos playing well at the moment or during that particular part of the season.

TheMightyFed
04-20-2005, 10:54 PM
BTW mdhubert :ras:
I'll always give you :ras: for acussing me of laughing of nothing :lol:
:fiery: :ras:
I prefer people like you who laugh for nothing than people who don't laugh at all... BTW looking at the Race and articles on Federer not being N. 1 any more, we have many opportunities to laugh as tennis fans ;)

El Legenda
04-20-2005, 10:57 PM
whats the Race?!?!





;)

WyveN
04-20-2005, 11:45 PM
It does give a good indication of who is having the best current year in terms of consistency so far so its not totally useless.

David Kenzie
04-21-2005, 12:00 AM
Of course it is not totally useless, but I'd like to scrap because it is so iritating to read bullshit by journalists who don't know the difference with the entry ranking. But most of all, it makes a lots of people say Nadal is number 2 in the world when they see him at n°2 position in the race.

I agree totally agree with Chloe, the ATP should not have the Race on their frontpage. Also when we look at a player's activity, why do they have to use the Race ranking ?? It makes no sense !

NYCtennisfan
04-21-2005, 03:24 AM
What of bunch of race-ists....

LOL! I've never been much a fan of the race but if it helps promote the game then I am all for it.

Scotso
04-21-2005, 05:36 AM
The problem isn't the race, it's how the race has been promoted to the point that some people/media outlets act like it is the official ranking list. I would have no problem if they kept up the race but stopped promoting it until oh, November when it actually matters.

Agreed... although I think it all just goes back to the fact that more people are too damn stupid to understand the difference, including the "expert" news writers.

I think the race is fun... to see where people stand for this year... it really helps when looking at where rankings are and where they could go.

Hendu
04-21-2005, 05:43 AM
The problem isn't the race, it's how the race has been promoted to the point that some people/media outlets act like it is the official ranking list. I would have no problem if they kept up the race but stopped promoting it until oh, November when it actually matters.

I agree...

Well, it is a race, no matters where you're in a certain point of it, it matters your position at the end..
I like it ;)

Good Point.


keep the race system... but lets not forget what all the Tennis players and fans know, that the Entry System is the "real" ranking.

Action Jackson
04-21-2005, 07:20 AM
The race is a very good idea and I can't add to the valid points that everyone else has made.

It's not that hard to understand and a bit of clarity by some wouldn't be bad. Though I am not sure that Entry and Race mean the same thing.

syd
04-21-2005, 08:18 AM
it permits to some players to be n°1,at least,once in their career !!!

TheMightyFed
04-21-2005, 08:22 AM
A race is always a race....*chinese proverb* :D
I love this one :yeah:

TheMightyFed
04-21-2005, 08:27 AM
What do say the posters who voted YES in majority ???
It's too bad ATP can't choose, that would be fun to have only the Race like in Formula 1, you base the initial draws on chance and then you see legendary first rounds Safin-Federer in Dubai, and a few crappy finals... that would give some crisp to the early season.

Chloe le Bopper
04-21-2005, 08:33 AM
Since the utility of the Race is primarily to determine the YEC participants, this isn't a huge deal... but it does look awfully stupid when you get to the end of the year and half of the top 50 has a different entry ranking than race position, because the Race fails to account for ITF events. There have been discrepancies between the two systems at the end of the year right into the top 15 in the past.

syd
04-21-2005, 08:34 AM
that would be fun to have only the Race like in Formula 1,
fun but not realistic !

oz_boz
04-21-2005, 10:14 AM
Wht would be the idea of suppressing it?

Probably the ATP organization thought that tennis would in some way benefit from it, otherwise it wouldn't have started. The Race will naturally be more dynamic than the Entry Ranking System, since it allows more shifts of the top positions during the first say nine months of the year; furthermore it has a atart and a finish with a winner. All those features will probably get people with a casual interest in tennis more interested than a continuously ongoing "Race" (the ERS), which will be dominated by one single player for times so long that it will get boring for the non-nerds (even for some nerds as it seems ;) ).

By the way, isn't there an expression "Year End No. 1" that tennis people have used for quite a while? To be a Year End No. 1 seems to be a slightly greater achievement than haing been just #1, so the Race has been around for some time already, if not in the present form.

Let the Nerds have their (our :) ) ERS, and the ignorant masses their Race.

TheMightyFed
04-21-2005, 10:24 AM
Wht would be the idea of suppressing it?

Actually this is more the confusion that it brings. I was happy to see Escudé or Santoro n. 1 after Doha, but it creates more confusion than anything. Tennis is largely based on consistency (who said Marat ? ;) ) and one-shot efforts shouldn't be too much promoted.
In what other sports are there 2 ranking systems for the sames players (or teams) by the way ?

Action Jackson
04-21-2005, 10:28 AM
Actually this is more the confusion that it brings. I was happy to see Escudé or Santoro n. 1 after Doha, but it creates more confusion than anything. Tennis is largely based on consistency (who said Marat ? ;) ) and one-shot efforts shouldn't be too much promoted.
In what other sports are there 2 ranking systems for the sames players (or teams) by the way ?

It's not difficult to understand, a tennis illiterate friend of mine understood it after 1 explanation.

It's simple the Race is for the specific year and the Entry which is more important is ongoing during their specific career.

TheMightyFed
04-21-2005, 10:44 AM
It's not difficult to understand, a tennis illiterate friend of mine understood it after 1 explanation.

It's simple the Race is for the specific year and the Entry which is more important is ongoing during their specific career.
You have tennis illiterate friends ? What a shame... ;)
It's not that complicated but it smells like a big marketing tool that at the end of the day doesn't produce much and even brings some sort of confusion when you read here and there "Safin N. 1" early 05 while Roger had a fantastic year in 04...
Anyway seems like other people would like to see it abolished :wavey:

Action Jackson
04-21-2005, 10:52 AM
The ones that voted yes haven't bothered to say why.

TheMightyFed
04-21-2005, 10:57 AM
The ones that voted yes haven't bothered to say why.
Just emphasizes the uselessness of the Race...

syd
04-21-2005, 11:38 AM
It's not difficult to understand, a tennis illiterate friend of mine understood it after 1 explanation.
It's simple the Race is for the specific year and the Entry which is more important is ongoing during their specific career. easy to understand, nothing's complicated in it, people who don't understand the difference it's because they do not interest in tennis : my sister who doesn't like tennis asked me a few weeks ago 'Rochus is in top 10? ' and if i try to explain her, she tells me "anyway, i dislike sport"

TheMightyFed
04-21-2005, 12:14 PM
easy to understand, nothing's complicated in it, people who don't understand the difference it's because they do not interest in tennis : my sister who doesn't like tennis asked me a few weeks ago 'Rochus is in top 10? ' and if i try to explain her, she tells me "anyway, i dislike sport"
Perfect illsutration of this messy ranking, thanks syd ;)

Neumann
04-21-2005, 12:51 PM
I agree with most of the posters here (yet it seems that not with most of the voters :eek: ). At first I didn't like the race because I had no internet conection and relying only on journalists you have after a few contradictions your head all messed up.

But now I think it is great. It DOES mean something, as most of the people posted: How each player has done so far in the present year. And that is rather interesting IMO. For instance you might say "Wow, if Lujbicic keeps thing up he will go to Shanghai. Nice effort!" or "Moya has to get better results than those up to now if he is to keep his top ten ranking (he is #24 in the race)."

For instance I, as a Nadal fan, used it after MC to see what would happen if he was injured till the end of the season (that's NOT going to happen ;) ) and saw that he would have finished #11. And also to guess how many more points he needs to get to the Masters, which are just 110 approx. a Master series and little more, considering the GS are won by top 8 players.

TheMightyFed
04-21-2005, 12:55 PM
For instance I, as a Nadal fan, used it after MC to see what would happen if he was injured till the end of the season (that's NOT going to happen ;) ) and saw that he would have finished #11. And also to guess how many more points he needs to get to the Masters, which are just 110 approx. a Master series and little more, considering the GS are won by top 8 players.
OK we have a few math freaks on board ;)

misyou25
04-21-2005, 02:08 PM
should do like the women's system

TheMightyFed
04-21-2005, 02:14 PM
should do like the women's system
You really want to screw up ATP ?

Neumann
04-21-2005, 02:25 PM
OK we have a few math freaks on board ;)

Hey, I agree there are some math freaks on the board, but I am not one of them :angel: . I just add and substract, I don't dive deep in dark and abstruse oceans of tennis wisdom as some distinguished members of this comunity (thanks for that work mates :wavey: ).

BTW I wanted to add that the race has its own drawbacks inherent to tennis, because of being an individual ranking (in a soccer league a team cannot be injured half the season thus not adding any points) and the surface influence (after RG is fairly clay-court specialist biased). But any tennis fan knows that :D!!

Action Jackson
04-21-2005, 02:30 PM
Just emphasizes the uselessness of the Race...

Only the uselessness of the people who can't defend their points. I am not a Maths freak, far from it.

If the people who are paid to inform people about the system, can't do it, they are the ones who need to be informed.

TheMightyFed
04-21-2005, 02:36 PM
Trend:
YES:62
NO:36
Any president candidate dream at such % !
ATP people, wake up ! ;)

Action Jackson
04-21-2005, 02:43 PM
Trend:
YES:62
NO:36
Any president candidate dream at such % !
ATP people, wake up ! ;)

As I see no one has defended the yes side with anything looking like an argument.

TheMightyFed
04-21-2005, 02:48 PM
Of course it is not totally useless, but I'd like to scrap because it is so iritating to read bullshit by journalists who don't know the difference with the entry ranking. But most of all, it makes a lots of people say Nadal is number 2 in the world when they see him at n°2 position in the race.

I agree totally agree with Chloe, the ATP should not have the Race on their frontpage. Also when we look at a player's activity, why do they have to use the Race ranking ?? It makes no sense !
kind of argument...

Carito_90
04-21-2005, 04:32 PM
No, it shouldn't be supressed because it is fair that the players that do well in THAT YEAR go to the TMC in November but it is confusing when it comes to some journalist that write about it as if it were the most important ranking and it's the one that should be taken into account (when its actually the complete opposite as we all know).
So yeah pretty much what everyone has said :)

misyou25
04-21-2005, 08:04 PM
You really want to screw up ATP ?
why? i really think the ranking sucks.

Horatio Caine
04-21-2005, 08:18 PM
I actually quite like the Race. It gives a clear indication of the form the players are in at a certain point of the year. For instance, one can find a certain Rainer Schuettler at no.6 (?) in the entry ranking in June last year when the race would have him at something like 80. Therefore we can tell roughly who is in-form by the middle of the year whereas if we didn't have the Race we would be dealing with a lot of over-inflated rankings right now(Safin, Henman, Coria, Moya et al).

misyou25
04-21-2005, 08:19 PM
carito 90...i like your avatar:)

Horatio Caine
04-21-2005, 08:23 PM
No, it shouldn't be supressed because it is fair that the players that do well in THAT YEAR go to the TMC in November.

If all the top 8 finishers stayed away from challengers the whole year then surely they would be the top 8 finishers on the theoretical Race anyway? :confused:

If we forgot the Race this year, surely the top 8 after Paris would be the same ones that would have been top 8 in the Race?

Chloe le Bopper
04-21-2005, 09:10 PM
For instance I, as a Nadal fan, used it after MC to see what would happen if he was injured till the end of the season (that's NOT going to happen ;) ) and saw that he would have finished #11. And also to guess how many more points he needs to get to the Masters, which are just 110 approx. a Master series and little more, considering the GS are won by top 8 players.

I did that just last night :banana:

With his points total, Roger would have qualified for last year already :lol: (maybe he was 5 points short because of Gaudio making it in, but close enough)

Chloe le Bopper
04-21-2005, 09:12 PM
should do like the women's system

The WTA has both a 52 week system and another system that is similar to the race. So how should they be like the women's system, exactly?

jtipson
04-21-2005, 09:19 PM
If all the top 8 finishers stayed away from challengers the whole year then surely they would be the top 8 finishers on the theoretical Race anyway? :confused:

If we forgot the Race this year, surely the top 8 after Paris would be the same ones that would have been top 8 in the Race?

Yep, as long as we continue to drop the TMC points early (i.e. after Bercy). Otherwise that could skew things.

Carito_90
04-21-2005, 09:20 PM
carito 90...i like your avatar:)

Hehe, thanks :)

If all the top 8 finishers stayed away from challengers the whole year then surely they would be the top 8 finishers on the theoretical Race anyway? :confused:

If we forgot the Race this year, surely the top 8 after Paris would be the same ones that would have been top 8 in the Race?

I'm getting the feeling the answers to this questions are rather obvious :confused:

Melvins
04-21-2005, 10:19 PM
The race is a championship like in football, all teams starts with 0 points and who win more points is the number one of these year, and I don't see the problem, but i agree with Chloe: the media promoting ATP Champion Race as it was the real ranking. But only not the media, ATP website put only the champions race in frontpage, i think is fair put two rankings.