Returners own servers? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Returners own servers?

oz_boz
04-10-2005, 06:14 PM
OK, maybe it's not fair to call Federer only a returner - but it seems as if Fed, Agassi and Hewitt usually beat Roddick and Pim-Pim. Then again, maybe it is not a good comparison since Fed-Hew-Ag are first class players and the other two aren't ;)

Anyway, it seems that it is not enough to be able to dictate the game in modern tennis, you still have to read your opponent to become the very best.

NATAS81
04-10-2005, 06:37 PM
Agassi is a combined 6-1 against Roddick/Johansson

Nalbandian, touted by many on this board as a good returner of serve, has not beaten Roddick on Hard.

RonE
04-10-2005, 07:37 PM
Ask Agassi what he thinks of returning Sampras' serve.

TennisLurker
04-10-2005, 08:03 PM
well, but Fat Dave did beat Andy on Indoors Carpet which is faster than hard, and had match point at the Us Open.

He did beat Andy on hard at Kooyong, but it is up to you if you consider an exhibition tournament match a real victory.

World Beater
04-10-2005, 08:41 PM
roddick and pim pim rely on their serve a ton. Its their major weapon. Fed, Hewitt and Agassi are more than just returners. They can actually construct pts.

-ernie-
04-10-2005, 09:22 PM
If the great servers arent on they WILL be thrashed by the great returners like Nalbandian, Agassi and Hewitt.

NATAS81
04-11-2005, 01:24 AM
If money isn't on the line then it's not a real victory.

Federerhingis
04-11-2005, 01:36 AM
Who are you kidding, anyone even someone with a patched eye can see Nalbandian is a great returner of serve, perhaps not on the Agassi league just yet but pretty close. Just look at his head to head versus Federer, granted Federer has improved his serve vastly and his overall game by quite a lot, another thing is that they've yet to play since Federers phenomenal form post winning the Aussie open 2004. I dont know whether it was in 2003 or last year he led in the winning on second serve returns category and he's always up there in the categories of break point conversions and return of serve wins.

By the way he really should have beaten Roddick in 03 at the open, his serve and his running out of gas in big matches is what is missing for him to win big or win the big titles, he will need a better serve to win a slam final. If he were to become stronger mentally under pressure and if he improved his serve even by a tad a la Hewitt(well Hewitts has improve by quite a lot yet his serve percentage is low) he would be challenging for slams and perhaps winning a few.

williaer
04-11-2005, 01:40 AM
OK, maybe it's not fair to call Federer only a returner - but it seems as if Fed, Agassi and Hewitt usually beat Roddick and Pim-Pim. Then again, maybe it is not a good comparison since Fed-Hew-Ag are first class players and the other two aren't ;)

Anyway, it seems that it is not enough to be able to dictate the game in modern tennis, you still have to read your opponent to become the very best.

wtf are you on?!!!!!!!! as if andy isnt a 'first class player', he was number one!!!!!!!!!!!!!! how much better can you get?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!

Paialii
04-11-2005, 01:47 AM
wtf are you on?!!!!!!!! as if andy isnt a 'first class player', he was number one!!!!!!!!!!!!!! how much better can you get?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!

Any tennis player that has one part of their game that overshadows the other parts, especially players with interests outside of tennis and whatnot, are looked down upon (Andy, Venus, Serena, Maria). People make it out to look like having a weapon and then relying on it is a bad thing. People say "IF Roddick didn't have that serve, he'd be number 3203405 in the world." The word "if" doesn't exist in the tennis world. What happens, happens.

Great returners tend to have an extreme amount of consistencey and control, when they're at their best; this is why they're able to win matches against the big power players/servers. Regardless, it makes out to be a great match every time. :)

williaer
04-11-2005, 02:12 AM
^^^^ i didnt say that andy's serve isnt the most powerful part of his game, and without it, i dunno what would happen, but it that he dont have other weapons (forehand, his backhand is improving everyday) its just his serve is so awesome, it makes all the other parts of his game look dodge.

i just have a prob when people say he isnt a first class player, and shite like that. it just aint true

Fedex
04-11-2005, 03:44 AM
By the way he really should have beaten Roddick in 03 at the open, his serve and his running out of gas in big matches is what is missing for him to win big or win the big titles, he will need a better serve to win a slam final. If he were to become stronger mentally under pressure and if he improved his serve even by a tad a la Hewitt(well Hewitts has improve by quite a lot yet his serve percentage is low) he would be challenging for slams and perhaps winning a few.
Agreed.

joseluismb
04-11-2005, 03:59 AM
i personally dont like Andy at all... i jsut dunno why.... but how can anyone daresay he's not a top class player?

robinhood
04-11-2005, 04:44 AM
i personally dont like Andy at all... i jsut dunno why.... but how can anyone daresay he's not a top class player?

Yeah, not only Roddick has been #1 and a slam champ, but he's still hanging in there with the best of them even though some players (i.e. Fed, Hewitt, and Agassi) keep getting the better of him. So it's unfair to rate him second class.

Becarina
04-11-2005, 07:38 AM
wtf are you on?!!!!!!!! as if andy isnt a 'first class player', he was number one!!!!!!!!!!!!!! how much better can you get?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!

scary punctuation :angel:

oz_boz
04-11-2005, 08:49 AM
Hi guys (i.p. angry Roddick fans).

1) Did you notice the ;) symbol after my saying Andy's not a 1st class player? The little yellow fellow meant "this sentence is not to be taken literally". Obviously Roddick is a first class player, since he has won a slam and been a number one.

2) My thread question should probably be answered with a "no", since players who are known MAINLY for good returns usually do not win slams (can't even come up with anyone) whereas guys who have their 1st serve as a MAJOR weapon above the rest of their skills actually have captured a few (Roddick, Ivanisevic).

robinhood
04-11-2005, 11:29 AM
Hi guys (i.p. angry Roddick fans).

1) Did you notice the ;) symbol after my saying Andy's not a 1st class player? The little yellow fellow meant "this sentence is not to be taken literally". Obviously Roddick is a first class player, since he has won a slam and been a number one.

2) My thread question should probably be answered with a "no", since players who are known MAINLY for good returns usually do not win slams (can't even come up with anyone) whereas guys who have their 1st serve as a MAJOR weapon above the rest of their skills actually have captured a few (Roddick, Ivanisevic).

Why didn't you just say so to begin with? ;) ;) ;)

williaer
04-11-2005, 11:42 AM
Hi guys (i.p. angry Roddick fans).

1) Did you notice the ;) symbol after my saying Andy's not a 1st class player? The little yellow fellow meant "this sentence is not to be taken literally". Obviously Roddick is a first class player, since he has won a slam and been a number one.

2) My thread question should probably be answered with a "no", since players who are known MAINLY for good returns usually do not win slams (can't even come up with anyone) whereas guys who have their 1st serve as a MAJOR weapon above the rest of their skills actually have captured a few (Roddick, Ivanisevic).

ah, good! it just seems that everyone here in GM hates andy!!!!

Cervantes
04-11-2005, 12:27 PM
wtf are you on?!!!!!!!! as if andy isnt a 'first class player', he was number one!!!!!!!!!!!!!! how much better can you get?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!

At the moment Andy isn't a first class player, he was a year ago, but at the moment he hasn't won a big tournament in over a year and hasn't beaten either Federer or Hewitt in over 9 nine months. What was his last big win? Maybe Safin in Houston TMC, but that was RR and didn't really matter anyway, so then we'd have to back to Queens where he beat Hewitt.

Also his rankingpoints have been dropping steadily over the last year or so, so I don't regard Roddick "first class" at the moment. First class would be Federer, Hewitt, Safin, Nadal and Gaudio at the moment. Then comes a group of players including Roddick, Coria, Agassi, Ljubicic and a few others.

syd
04-11-2005, 12:37 PM
Also his rankingpoints have been dropping steadily over the last year or so, so I don't regard Roddick "first class" at the moment. First class would be Federer, Hewitt, Safin, Nadal and Gaudio at the moment. Then comes a group of players including Roddick, Coria, Agassi, Ljubicic and a few others.

Agree ! for the moment, Andy isn't playing with his real potential !
he really can do better.

Smankyou
04-11-2005, 01:39 PM
scary punctuation :angel:
bahahaha

You beat me to it.

Carito_90
04-11-2005, 04:49 PM
At the moment Andy isn't a first class player, he was a year ago, but at the moment he hasn't won a big tournament in over a year and hasn't beaten either Federer or Hewitt in over 9 nine months. What was his last big win? Maybe Safin in Houston TMC, but that was RR and didn't really matter anyway, so then we'd have to back to Queens where he beat Hewitt.

Also his rankingpoints have been dropping steadily over the last year or so, so I don't regard Roddick "first class" at the moment. First class would be Federer, Hewitt, Safin, Nadal and Gaudio at the moment. Then comes a group of players including Roddick, Coria, Agassi, Ljubicic and a few others.

It is true indeed that Andy hasn't won any big matches in a long time, but let me remind you he was up there with Hewitt in the match in IW (6-7 7-6 6-7) and could have won it. He still hasn't faced Federer but I wouldn't be surprised if the outcome of the match didn't change from the ones they've played last year.
As for the other 'first class' players as you say, I'm sure he can challenge every single one of them. The only one I would have doubts about would be Marat in his top form.

And yes, his rankingpoints have been decreasing lately but he's still managed to stay among the top 3.
Semis in the AO and semis in IW (I'm sure he would have had a good run in Miami if it hadn't been for that wrist that got injured) is not what I call a bad run so far.

Anyway, I just had to respond to that. Oh yes... and please, Gaudio, first class player? Over Roddick, Agassi or Coria? Come on buddy :lol:

ah, good! it just seems that everyone here in GM hates andy!!!!

Wow, that was one hell of a Captain Obvious phrase ;)

Hendu
04-11-2005, 06:51 PM
Nalbandian, touted by many on this board as a good returner of serve, has not beaten Roddick on Hard.

he hasn't been able to beat Roddick on hard, so what? :rolleyes:

He still is one of the best serve returners out there... :rolleyes:

jazz_girl
04-11-2005, 08:18 PM
he hasn't been able to beat Roddick on hard, so what? :rolleyes:

He still is one of the best serve returners out there... :rolleyes:
But he did beat him on carpet, so that doesn't say anything. And accoridng to the ATP stats from this year, these are the best returners(Thanks novanora for the stats!):

Points Won Returning 1st Serve
Pos Player % Match
1. Federer, Roger 36 33
2. Nadal, Rafael 36 27
3. Ferrer, David 36 20
4. Canas, Guillermo 36 15
5. Kiefer, Nicolas 36 14
6. Davydenko, Nikolay 35 19
7. Coria, Guillermo 35 15
8. Schuettler, Rainer 34 14
9. Nalbandian, David 34 13
10. Dent, Taylor 33 23

Points Won Returning 2nd Serve
Pos Player % Match
1. Nadal, Rafael 56 27
2. Coria, Guillermo 56 15
3. Spadea, Vincent 55 19
4. Nalbandian, David 55 13
5T. Hernych, Jan 55 12
5T. Robredo, Tommy 55 12
7T. Hewitt, Lleyton 54 20
7T. Rochus, Olivier 54 20
9T. Mello, Ricardo 54 14
9T. Novak, Jiri 54 14

Break Points Converted
Pos Player % Match
1. Berdych, Tomas 51 13
2. Lee, Hyung-Taik 50 12
3. Nalbandian, David 49 13
4. Ferrer, David 49 20
5. Malisse, Xavier 49 16
6. Coria, Guillermo 47 15
7. Calleri, Agustin 47 19
8. Mathieu, Paul-Henri 47 15
9. Federer, Roger 46 33
10. Chela, Juan Ignacio 46 19

Return Games Won
Pos Player % Match
1. Nalbandian, David 37 13
2. Nadal, Rafael 36 27
3. Coria, Guillermo 36 15
4. Ferrer, David 33 20
5. Federer, Roger 31 33
6. Kiefer, Nicolas 31 14
7. Dent, Taylor 30 23
8T. Agassi, Andre 30 20
8T. Gaudio, Gaston 30 20
10. Davydenko, Nikolay 30 19

Hendu
04-11-2005, 08:46 PM
Thanks for the stats jazz_girl

wow, Rafa Nadal is 2nd in Points Won Returning 1st Serve, and 1st in Points Won Returning 2nd Serve... thats impressive :eek:

Also, Coria and Nalbandian are the only two players who are top ten in all these rankings... if only they had a good serve... :sad:

NATAS81
04-11-2005, 09:01 PM
he hasn't been able to beat Roddick on hard, so what? :rolleyes:

He still is one of the best serve returners out there... :rolleyes:
Well, the way I figure. If you want to prove you're a good returner, you have to push the best servers to the limit.

Nalbandian hasn't done that. Pretty simple really.

Hendu
04-11-2005, 09:07 PM
Well, the way I figure. If you want to prove you're a good returner, you have to push the best servers to the limit.

Nalbandian hasn't done that. Pretty simple really.

There are many good servers... I don't think you should consider his record against only one player if you want to prove he is not a top serve returner...

Anyway, he did beat Roddick on Carpet, and almost beated him on hard in the Semifinals of the US Open...

jazz_girl
04-11-2005, 09:09 PM
Well, the way I figure. If you want to prove you're a good returner, you have to push the best servers to the limit.

Nalbandian hasn't done that. Pretty simple really.
He beat Roddick on carpet, a surface even faster, and had a match point in hardcourt. Besides Roddick is not the only good server he has beaten. Off the top of my head I can mention Ljubicic as well...

NATAS81
04-11-2005, 09:10 PM
There are many good servers... I don't think you should consider his record against only one player if you want to prove he is not a top serve returner...

Anyway, he did beat Roddick on Carpet, and almost beated him on hard in the Semifinals of the US Open...
I'll give him that. He pushed Andy on a fast surface. I'm not familiar with carpet. And I don't have his stats against Roddick in that carpet match. If Roddick won 70% of his service points in that match, I wouldn't call that making Andy aware on his serve.

If you'd provide those stats I might give you some credit on that standpoint.

David hasn't shown me much in his recent hardcourts tournaments.

However, when there are reports of stomach virii' looming you can't be too sure.

Cervantes
04-11-2005, 09:45 PM
It is true indeed that Andy hasn't won any big matches in a long time, but let me remind you he was up there with Hewitt in the match in IW (6-7 7-6 6-7) and could have won it. He still hasn't faced Federer but I wouldn't be surprised if the outcome of the match didn't change from the ones they've played last year.
As for the other 'first class' players as you say, I'm sure he can challenge every single one of them. The only one I would have doubts about would be Marat in his top form.

And yes, his rankingpoints have been decreasing lately but he's still managed to stay among the top 3.
Semis in the AO and semis in IW (I'm sure he would have had a good run in Miami if it hadn't been for that wrist that got injured) is not what I call a bad run so far.

Anyway, I just had to respond to that. Oh yes... and please, Gaudio, first class player? Over Roddick, Agassi or Coria? Come on buddy :lol:

He might challenge my "first class" players, but he doesn't cause he chooses to play challengers like Houston, San Jose and Memphis among others, so he never plays them. And yes he came close to beating Hewitt at IW, but the main thing still stands, he didn't actually win.

The thing with Roddick is he wins easily against 90% of the field on hardcourt and grass, that's why he's still #3 in the world. And if you check Andy's results over the last year or so you'll find his wins have come against lesser players most of the time and his draws were relatively easy. Aus Open 2005: easy route to SF, Wimbledon 2004: easy route to F and the same thing holds for his runs at AMS events (like Toronto for instance). Don't get me wrong I'm not one of those Duckhunters hating Roddick, but his results just speak for themselves, he just hasn't performed for over a year now.

And finally here's my reason for naming Gaudio along the "first class" players. He's won a GS in the last year, plus he's nearly unbeatable on clay since. Surely he's no match for any top 10 player on hardcourt or grass, but at the moment he's holding a slam and is therefore top class. If Roddick wins a slam this year I'm the first to put him back on the a-list.

NATAS81
04-11-2005, 09:55 PM
And if you check Andy's results over the last year or so you'll find his wins have come against lesser players most of the time and his draws were relatively easy. Aus Open 2005: easy route to SF, Wimbledon 2004: easy route to F and the same thing holds for his runs at AMS events (like Toronto for instance).
You have to take into account his injuries. He has battled hard to stay at third in the world, so even if his opponents were easy he apparently held onto enough points to claim a high spot in the rankings.

You can't ever count out a guy like Roddick with his serve. It's such a huge weapon. He works on it everyday. He's probably working on it now as we speak! He hits into the 140s at will. I don't need to talk about his serve, but you can understand how he is capable of winning any match.

If his opponents are having the slightest off day, or aren't focusing 100%, Roddick wins no problemo.

Federerhingis
04-12-2005, 05:40 AM
Yup Jazzgirl isnt that what I posted in my reply, I knew Nalbandian was a great returner, maybe not yet in the Agassi category, few can even be compared, however he's steadily getting there. As I see it itss Agassi and Hewitt as the best returners of serve overall, most effective at the moment perhaps Federer, I mean the way he handles Ljubicic and Roddick's serve is amazing. The same can be said for Nalbi, I knew I remembered seeing those stats of his winning on serve return on both 1st and 2nd serves especially the 2nd serve and winning break pnt conversions. To even imply he inst a good returner of serve is just absurd! Look no further than at his H2H versus Federer, granted Federer has improved his game and serve vastly he still was a very good server. Nalbi just seems to read serves especially those fast ones a la Ljubicic and Roddick so well like Federer, yet hes more lethal because of his two hander backhand a la Agassi.

sierra91
04-12-2005, 06:14 AM
wtf are you on?!!!!!!!! as if andy isnt a 'first class player', he was number one!!!!!!!!!!!!!! how much better can you get?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!

scary punctuation :angel:

:haha: :haha: :haha: BUT ... :yeah:

Action Jackson
04-12-2005, 06:23 AM
You have to take into account his injuries. He has battled hard to stay at third in the world, so even if his opponents were easy he apparently held onto enough points to claim a high spot in the rankings.

What injuries? He had a wrist problem this year, but it's not like he has been out of the game for a long time like say Coria, Nalbandian, Haas or Cañas. Cervantes explained how he got his points very clearly.

You can't ever count out a guy like Roddick with his serve. It's such a huge weapon. He works on it everyday. He's probably working on it now as we speak! He hits into the 140s at will. I don't need to talk about his serve, but you can understand how he is capable of winning any match.

Players need to develop and they catch up and Roddick hasn't been improving as much as previous. His last TMS event win was in Miami.

If his opponents are having the slightest off day, or aren't focusing 100%, Roddick wins no problemo.

The way you are saying it is as if Roddick is ranked in the # 20s and not top 5. He has a combined H2H record of 3-18 against Federer, Hewitt and Agassi all guys who can return serve very well.

Action Jackson
04-13-2005, 07:09 AM
ah, good! it just seems that everyone here in GM hates andy!!!!

Brilliant observation.

Federerhingis
04-13-2005, 07:16 AM
I wouldnt call it hate, rather dislike for his playing style in my case.

oz_boz
04-13-2005, 08:30 AM
I wouldnt call it hate, rather dislike for his playing style in my case.

Amen.

NATAS81
04-13-2005, 08:34 AM
Why can't people just admire how he's able to pull off such a serve with his wierd motion and has yet to dislocate a shoulder?