MTF Showdown: Gilbert Vs. Lundgren! [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

MTF Showdown: Gilbert Vs. Lundgren!

Tennis Fool
10-29-2004, 03:03 AM
Gilbert: Took Agassi to No. 1. Took Roddick to No. 1. Both win their matches by winning ugly.

Lundgren: Took Federer to No. 1. Now is looking to get Safin back there. Both with their matches by winning quietly.


Who has been the most effective coach?

Domino
10-29-2004, 03:10 AM
Lundgren: because he is not an asshole. I don't care about the coaching ability, just look at the way Andy and Andre looked as his students. They were not enjoying themselves, and while I don't like either, I have to say that Andy was having a lot more fun when he was with Tarik the son of the idiot.

Deboogle!.
10-29-2004, 04:55 AM
I have to say that Andy was having a lot more fun when he was with Tarik the son of the idiot.

I don't buy that at all. Andy was a lot more immature with Tarik and his anger and frustration got to him a lot more under Tarik and cost him matches. I've read several places that since he's just as passionate and fiery as Andy that he didn't help him in that department at all. Andy seems a whole lot more relaxed under Brad than Tarik. Just because he's not as volatile on court doesn't mean he's not having as much fun. and if you've ever seen them practice, you'd see that they have a great time together and it's a very fun environment from what I myself have observed. now I'm not saying I give Brad the credit for this, because it happened to coincide with Andy simply getting older and perhaps maturing and calming down on his own. but yea, I'd say Andy had a whole lot of fun when he won the USO and finished last year at #1 :) and I don't know if that would've happened had he kept Tarik around.

As for the poll... gee I can't imagine what the result is going to be. Logic would suggest, though, that since Andy has far less talent than Marat that Brad has been a more effective coach? :angel:

WyveN
10-29-2004, 05:23 AM
Forget both of them, Annacone rules.

Tennis Fool
10-29-2004, 05:48 AM
Forget both of them, Annacone rules.
Lol, I forgot about Annacone. Pete dumped him, of course. Who is he coaching now?

Still I'd put Gullikson (Pete's first coach, who passed) as crediting bringing out Pete's talents. Darren Cahill should be up there with the all-time best coaches, although I wonder how much he did with bringing Hewitt to No. 1. He seems to have had some sucess with Agassi. Is he still coaching him?

Anyway, I would still put PL and BG above the others.

Lisbeth
10-29-2004, 05:52 AM
What about Darren Cahill? IIRC, he's only ever coached 2 professional players and they've both made it #1 ;)

Seriously though, a good coach helps a good player, but if the motivation and raw talent aren't there then a coach can't win the matches for them.

Lisbeth
10-29-2004, 05:54 AM
Sorry Tennis Fool, didn't see your mention of Cahill before I posted mine :) I think what he did do for Lleyton was continually focus the energy. A lot of coaches would have burned out on a young guy that intense.

WyveN
10-29-2004, 05:55 AM
Lol, I forgot about Annacone. Pete dumped him, of course. Who is he coaching now?


You dont know?
Henman who is having the best 12 months of his life by far.



Anyway, I would still put PL and BG above the others.

Based on what? Plenty of other good coaches: Cahill, Wilander, Perlas.

merle
10-29-2004, 07:59 AM
PL is my choice here but I just want to say that I think Cahill is just great. The guy that will get him after AA retires will be a very lucky guy. Hewitt didn't beg him to stay for nothing. Hmm, is Fed waiting for Cahill? Can anyone tell?
Annacone seems to have worked wonders with Tim too. :yeah:

Action Jackson
10-29-2004, 08:05 AM
On that list Lundgren is streets ahead of Gilbert. Well Lundgren took Federer from outside the top 50 to # 2 and developed him at the right speed and look at the results now. The same with Rios as well he took him into the top 10 as well.

Gilbert is a tactician mainly, and he has been caught out more times than not lately. I doubt that Gilbert could would take on a player say who had plenty of talent and was around the number 50 in the rankings and bring him along through to the top. He specialises in taking players that were already in the top 10 and not from outside and then bring them to the top level.

Agassi doesn't count as he was already established as a top player before he had his wrist injury and motivational problem.

There are other good coaches as well such as Wilander, Cahill, Mancini.

Bibir
10-29-2004, 11:03 AM
The shaggy-haired one for me :yeah:

I agree with GWH.....it's "easier" to work with top players...Concerning Andre, the missing ingredient was focus and motivation...

Of course he's a tactician too but he has no evident ability to develop talent or skills.

Roddick's results did improve...but Gilbert doesn't seem to be focused on the expansion of his capabilities.

Marc Rosset is Tall
10-29-2004, 11:12 AM
Lundgren for sure if it was a straight shoot-out between him and Gilbert.

I pretty much agree with what Domino and GWH have said. Another thing I would like to add is that Lundgren isn't interested in the limelight for himself and is there solely for his player, whereas Gilbert isn't like that at all. He is like "look at me I am BG, and I am a supercoach and everything I say is gospel".

The coach shouldn't be trying to grandstand his player that is something Lundgren, Mancini, Annacone and Cahill don't do.

RonE
10-29-2004, 11:28 AM
Funny no one has mentioned Tony Pickard. He did wonders with Edberg. Anybody know what he is doing these days?

Marc Rosset is Tall
10-29-2004, 11:29 AM
He worked with Malisse once I think, but he is probably living the good life somewhere.

Bibir
10-29-2004, 11:38 AM
He worked with Safin once too...Wimbledon 2001...long time ago...

RonE
10-29-2004, 11:42 AM
And also Tony Roche- Lendl didn't do too badly under him if my memory serves me right.

Action Jackson
10-29-2004, 11:45 AM
TF, I think is refering to coaches who are still active on the tour at the moment.

Roche is a fine coach and worked mostly with Lendl and Rafter, but he hasn't been around for ages, just like Pickard.

Bibir
10-29-2004, 11:46 AM
Another thing I would like to add is that Lundgren isn't interested in the limelight for himself and is there solely for his player, whereas Gilbert isn't like that at all. He is like "look at me I am BG, and I am a supercoach and everything I say is gospel".



Right...enormous ego !!!!!! ;)


Q. Earlier in the year, Brad Gilbert said that only two players would make him come back on the tour as a coach: Andy Roddick and Marat Safin. I don't know whether you heard him say that. What do you think of that comment?

MARAT SAFIN: The only thing that I heard is just he said that I'm injured completely on my brain, which didn't give me any respect to myself. He should take care of Andy, he's doing really good job, and just leave me alone. That's the only suggestion I can give him. And he's doing really good job, so why break my balls?

Wednesday Addams
10-29-2004, 11:47 AM
Definitely Lundgren. Better ethic and approach............. And he's good with the psychological stuff. He got Rios in the top 10, got rid of those few demons Federer had and is about to do the same with Safin's.......... (not jinxing)
He just seems to understand players better. I personally don't like Gilbert (I think he's a pompous ass) but I can't deny that he has had great results. Still, IMO he focuses ONLY on the game and the shots (he's more a technician). Lundgren is the kind of coach that can give focus and motivation, and also a kind of.................. calmness (look at Federer now, compared to what he was a few years ago).

Bibir
10-29-2004, 11:52 AM
And also Tony Roche- Lendl didn't do too badly under him if my memory serves me right.

If we go back in history...I would say Boris Becker and Ion Tiriac :)

Marc Rosset is Tall
10-29-2004, 11:56 AM
If we go back in history...I would say Boris Becker and Ion Tiriac :)

Bosch was the coach and Tiriac the puppet master.

Tiriac coached Vilas.

RonE
10-29-2004, 11:59 AM
If we go back in history...I would say Boris Becker and Ion Tiriac :)

I think Tiriac was his manager but I could be wrong :confused:

But if you look at the coaches of today I would definitely put Lundgren as one of the best for all the reasons mentioned, most notably his calm manner and the way he bonds with the player. He is there more as a guide and someone to give advice whereas Brad seems to be much more of a control-freak trying to mold his player.

RonE
10-29-2004, 12:02 PM
Two other very successful and long-lasting coach-player relationships would be Larry Passos - Guga and Antonio Martinez - Juanqui. Both pairs have been together since Guga and Juanqui were in their teens.

Wednesday Addams
10-29-2004, 12:03 PM
Bosch was the coach and Tiriac the puppet master.


Sad, but true. BTW, not sure how much of Vilas' success is due to Tiriac's abillities as a coach and how much to his own enormous talent. I'm guessing Vilas would have been huge even without Tiriac coaching him........

Bibir
10-29-2004, 12:32 PM
I think Tiriac was his manager but I could be wrong :confused:

yeah...he was Becker's steely manager "officially"
I didn't know anything about them but I read his book....OMG!...What a relationship! :eek:

Bosch was the coach and Tiriac the puppet master.


The Creator...

it would make a great TV film ;)

WyveN
10-29-2004, 12:59 PM
Marat about to get thrashed by Llodra it seems, I wonder if some Safin fans will start calling for Lundgren's head again or will he be given the benefit of the doubt.

Aurora
10-29-2004, 01:11 PM
oh come on WyveN, everyone knows he should have sent a polite apology to this tournament instead of playing yet another week -singles ánd doubles- with his favourite TMS coming up. People in St Petersburg have said Lundgren and Landers weren't happy with the doubles playing.

maratski
10-29-2004, 05:01 PM
Marat about to get thrashed by Llodra it seems, I wonder if some Safin fans will start calling for Lundgren's head again or will he be given the benefit of the doubt.

please forgive the people on this board for showing their emotions at times! :rolleyes:

Havok
10-29-2004, 05:14 PM
On that list Lundgren is streets ahead of Gilbert. Well Lundgren took Federer from outside the top 50 to # 2 and developed him at the right speed and look at the results now. The same with Rios as well he took him into the top 10 as well.

Gilbert is a tactician mainly, and he has been caught out more times than not lately. I doubt that Gilbert could would take on a player say who had plenty of talent and was around the number 50 in the rankings and bring him along through to the top. He specialises in taking players that were already in the top 10 and not from outside and then bring them to the top level.

Agassi doesn't count as he was already established as a top player before he had his wrist injury and motivational problem.

There are other good coaches as well such as Wilander, Cahill, Mancini.
Tatiana Golovin :tape:. Although he wasn't there for her metioric rise, he worked with her in between Andre and Roddick. Gilbert is able to do it, I don't think you give him enouhg credit. And another thing, sometimes its a heck of a lot harder to take a top 10 player and create a #1 player out of what he's got already, rather than bringing someone up the ranks.

Denise
10-29-2004, 05:39 PM
PETER!!!! of course :D

TaTaaa
10-29-2004, 05:51 PM
I think both are doing great jobs, but I prefer Peter because he is doing a great job with MARAT!! hehe =))))

Action Jackson
10-30-2004, 01:26 AM
Tatiana Golovin :tape:. Although he wasn't there for her metioric rise, he worked with her in between Andre and Roddick. Gilbert is able to do it, I don't think you give him enouhg credit. And another thing, sometimes its a heck of a lot harder to take a top 10 player and create a #1 player out of what he's got already, rather than bringing someone up the ranks.

I have given Gilbert more than enough credit and have stated what his great strengths are and what is weaknesses are. I would give more credit to Gilbert if he was able or willing to take on a younger player like someone around the #50 or #60 mark and was able to develop them and then bring them into the top 10, you know actually doing the work and then enjoying the ride, instead of coming in like a svengali.

Agassi and Roddick were already there in the top when BG came in and where they lacked was in the analytical and tactical side of the game. Gilbert was perfect for Agassi at that time as he had what Agassi didn't. Roddick is a work in progress and he has undoubtedly benefitted him initially, but there has been some stagnation at the moment, though that can happen and won't write him off as a failure for Andy.

Havok
10-30-2004, 02:05 AM
You seem to think that taking someone from top 10 to #1 is easy as pie though, when compared to getting someone at around 50 to inside the top 10.

Action Jackson
10-30-2004, 02:12 AM
You seem to think that taking someone from top 10 to #1 is easy as pie though, when compared to getting someone at around 50 to inside the top 10.

Far from it actually Naldo, what I said was that I would have more respect for Gilbert if he did that with younger players instead of one taking on ones that are established. I doubt whether Gilbert would have handled the development years of Federer's career like Lundgren had, very much doubt it.

Gilbert is a gloryhound and that's why he wouldn't do that and he needs the publicity, whereas the player should be the true focus and not the coach.

Havok
10-30-2004, 02:24 AM
Oh. Speaking of Gilbert wanting more attention than Peter, doesn't that sort of tie in with the fact that he's an american so the folks at ESPN are more willing to seek him out and have chats/interviews with him, and also he was a very accomplished player in his tennis career, much more than Peter was, wasn't he?

Action Jackson
10-30-2004, 02:31 AM
Oh. Speaking of Gilbert wanting more attention than Peter, doesn't that sort of tie in with the fact that he's an american so the folks at ESPN are more willing to seek him out and have chats/interviews with him, and also he was a very accomplished player in his tennis career, much more than Peter was, wasn't he?

I am talking globally and not just within the vacuum of North America that Gilbert is a gloryhound, that is not counting his achievements which have given due credit.

We are talking as coaches and not as players, but as for the players well lets say Gilbert absoultely got the most of his talents as a player, whereas Lundgren didn't even come close in that department.

Lundgren is a much better all round coach for all the reasons stated and that includes the developmental side of things as well.

Havok
10-30-2004, 03:40 AM
So he even seeks attention when he's not in North America, or dealing with Americans? And i never objected to the fact that Peter was the more weel-rounded coach of the two, so no need to constantly bring that up. I know we were talking about coaches, but I was trying to make a link to Gilbert's ways as a player and that they followed him to now when he's a coach. He was like that before, so he'll obviously be the same as a coach. It's not like he all of a sudden became a person who liked the spotlight.:p

MerchantWanker
10-30-2004, 04:52 AM
Lundgren easily.

Vladimir Poutine
10-31-2004, 09:38 AM
Lundgren.

Vass
10-31-2004, 11:59 AM
I can't imagine Gilbert coaching a headcase ( a guy with ANY psychological problems). Don't see him having a calming effect on anybody and I don't think he's sensitive enough for them. Lungren can do it.

I assume that Lungren and Gilbert have the same tactical knowledge and the shot making school, though. But coaches realy need to know psychology, in my opinion...

Action Jackson
10-31-2004, 12:01 PM
I can't imagine Gilbert coaching a headcase ( a guy with ANY psychological problems). Don't see him having a calming effect on anybody and I don't think he's sensitive enough for them. Lungren can do it.


Gilbert definitely couldn't have worked with Federer, let alone Rios or Safin.

Fondueischguät
11-08-2004, 06:25 AM
I don't think Gilbert would be able to work with with Marat at all. Lundgren is a better all-round coach than Gilbert, though there are some other good ones that have not been mentioned on the above list such as Tony Roche.

jtipson
11-08-2004, 09:15 AM
Gilbert definitely couldn't have worked with Federer, let alone Rios or Safin.

I doubt any of them would have wanted him, either.

bad gambler
11-08-2004, 09:19 AM
lol...

drf716
11-08-2004, 09:31 AM
:crazy:

Action Jackson
11-09-2004, 04:56 AM
I doubt any of them would have wanted him, either.

:worship:

tennischick
11-10-2004, 02:01 AM
I doubt any of them would have wanted him, either.
:worship: :worship:

Fedex
11-10-2004, 02:25 AM
Lundgren wins this one hands down.

Fedex
11-10-2004, 02:28 AM
You seem to think that taking someone from top 10 to #1 is easy as pie though, when compared to getting someone at around 50 to inside the top 10.
No, its not easy, but its certainly not as hard as taking someone from the top 50 to the top 3, along with winning a grand slam, and the masters cup. Roddick was already an established player, before Gilbert took over. That's not exactly the same case with Federer and Lundgren.

^Sue^
11-10-2004, 02:36 AM
Peter Lundgren thinks he's a lucky star..--the fact that he's not...because the players themselves got the potential....

Action Jackson
11-10-2004, 02:40 AM
Peter Lundgren thinks he's a lucky star..--the fact that he's not...because the players themselves got the potential....

When was the last time your brain actually worked?
If this place had quality control, then you wouldn't have been allowed to register here.

Lundgren has had plenty of success, there are many coaches that haven't. It doesn't matter how talented a player is, if they don't work or have the right training then they won't fulfill their abilities eg Arazi one of the most naturally talented players of all time and Rios.

Fedex
11-10-2004, 02:45 AM
When was the last time your brain actually worked?
If this place had quality control, then you wouldn't have been allowed to register here.

If this place did have quality control, I somehow doubt that 'ducknation' would even exist. Too bad they dont, but every message board needs its idiots, dolts and wenches. They are here for entertainment. :)

Fedex
11-10-2004, 02:47 AM
Lundgren is also an excellent tactician. He has everything Gilbert has, and much more.

Captain Obvious
11-10-2004, 03:40 AM
If this place did have quality control, I somehow doubt that 'ducknation' would even exist. Too bad they dont, but every message board needs its idiots, dolts and wenches. They are here for entertainment. :)

Yes, I suppose that's why quality control couldn't be introduced.

For the record Lundgren is the better coach out of the options listed.

WyveN
11-10-2004, 04:13 AM
I dont think there is enough of a sample size to judge who the better coach is although Lundgren seems like a far nicer person.
People say Gilbert only took established players, and that is true but it can be said that Lundgren has only worked with the most talented players of this generation and while they all had mental issues actual technique work would have to be minimal with the likes of Rios, Safin and Federer (relative to Roddick anyway).

Captain Obvious
11-10-2004, 04:23 AM
The mental conditioning at that level probably would be more important than the technical issues, though they are both very important.

WyveN
11-10-2004, 04:37 AM
The mental conditioning at that level probably would be more important than the technical issues

That depends on the player, surely. Hewitt and Canas would need minimal mental conditioning although their technique is not perfect while with Rios and Safin a team of psychiatrists is not enough despite having almost perfect technique on the actual tennis shots.

Captain Obvious
11-10-2004, 04:41 AM
That depends on the player, surely. Hewitt and Canas would need minimal mental conditioning although their technique is not perfect while with Rios and Safin a team of psychiatrists is not enough despite having almost perfect technique on the actual tennis shots.

Very true, especially the Safin/Rios analogy.

Tennis Fool
11-20-2004, 09:28 PM
bump

RogiFan88
11-21-2004, 02:53 AM
PL works w the real talent...