Federer 2006 vs. Nadal 2010 vs. Djokovic 2011, interesting stats... [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Federer 2006 vs. Nadal 2010 vs. Djokovic 2011, interesting stats...

Johnny Groove
05-16-2012, 03:25 AM
I was a bit bored, so I researched some stats about the best years of the top 3, and this is what I found. All stats were conjured using the ATP's RICOH ATP match facts thingy in the player's profile pages.

Aces:

6.76 per match, Fed 2006, 97
4.51 per match, Djokovic 2011, 76
3.83 per match, Nadal 2010, 81

This is no surprise, Federer has the best peak first serve, followed by Djokovic, then Nadal.

Double Faults:

1.88 per match, Djokovic 2011
1.48 per match, Nadal 2010
1.22 per match, Fed 2006

Actually Djokovic has the worst valley 2nd serve, then Nadal, then Federer.

Ace-DF differential:

5.54, Fed 2006
2.63, Djokvic 2011
2.35, Nadal 2010

So basically, Federer has the best first and second serve. Djokovic has a better 1st serve than Nadal, but Nadal has a better 2nd serve than Djokovic.

1st serve %:

67%- Nadal 2010
65%- Djokovic 2011
63%- Federer 2006

In terms of percentage, again not a surprise here.

1st serve points won:

77%- Federer 2006
75%- Nadal 2010
74%- Djokovic 2011

I’m surprised Fed is not further ahead here. Also interesting that the previous stats told us that Djokovic has the better first serve, but Nadal wins more points on his first delivery. Quality of the ground game, surely.

2nd serve points won:

60%- Nadal 2010
59% Federer 2006
56%- Djokovic 2011

Now this is a bit of a surprise. Nadal, despite having a worse 2nd serve than Fed, defends it much better. Djokovic, who’s 2nd serve is the worst, predictably ranks lowest here.

Break points faced and saved per match:

Fed 2006- 4.11 per match, 70% saved
Nadal 2010- 3.98 per match, 69% saved
Djokovic 2011- 4.62 per match, 65% saved

Now this is a bit interesting. Djokovic faced the most break points per match, and saved the least. Nadal faced the least, and saved just 1% less than Fed, who faced more per match. It can be said in this case that, on serve, Federer is the most clutch, Nadal 2nd, Djokovic 3rd. On return is another story, as we’ll see in a little bit.

Service games won and serve points won per match:

Fed 2006- 90% serve games, 70% serve points
Nadal 2010- 90% serve games, 70% serve points
Djokovic 2011- 86% serve games, 68% serve points

Interestingly, both Fed and Nadal won 90% of their serve games and 70% serve points. I’d have thought Fed would be better here. Djoker just a bit below.

1st serve return points won:

Djokovic 2011- 36%
Federer 2006- 35%
Nadal 2010- 31% (34% in 2008)

It can be said here, that Djokovic returns the first serve the best, followed by Fed, and Nadal far behind. This conforms to general wisdom.

2nd serve return points won:

Djokovic 2011- 58%
Nadal 2010- 55%
Federer 2006- 54%

This is a bit surprising to me, Djokovic 3 points ahead on 2nd serve returns, I’d have thought Nadal would be a bit closer here as well as further ahead of Fed than a single point.

Break point chances and conversions:

Djokovic 2011- 9.11 per match, 48% conversion
Nadal 2010: 8.32 per match, 44% conversion
Federer 2006: 9.02 per match, 43% conversion

Again, Djokovic surprising me here. On return, he is clearly the best by a good margin, creating and converting more chance than both Fed or Nadal. Rafa creating fewer, but converting more than Fed.

Return games won and return points won:

Djokovic- 39% return games won, 45% return points won
Federer 2006- 32% return games won, 42% return points won
Nadal 2010- 29% (33% in 08) return games won, 40% (43% in 08) return points won

Shockingly, Federer won more return points and games than Nadal 2010, but not Nadal 2008. Djokovic still way ahead.

Total points won:

Djokovic 2011- 56%
Federer 2006- 56%
Nadal 2010- 55%

I think it’s a bit interesting that the Top 3’s best years, some of the best years in the history of the game, all 3 slam seasons, they all won only 55-56% of the points they played. :shrug:

So overall, Djokovic has far and away the best return, Federer the best serve, and Nadal the best? Mentality? Guts? Determination? Intangibles? Things that don’t show up in stats? It is also clear that Nadal 2010 had a better serve than Nadal 2008, but Nadal 2008 had a better return than Nadal 2010.

abraxas21
05-16-2012, 03:30 AM
informative but you can't just conclude that a player has the best serve based on aces and double faults alone.

hipolymer
05-16-2012, 03:32 AM
Who exactly did Nadal face in 2010? :stupid:

Topspindoctor
05-16-2012, 03:32 AM
I'd love to see how Serverer would do without that monster serve. He was frequently outplayed in rallies by worse opponents but managed to serve his way out of trouble every time. Olderer's ground game is overrated IMO. Without his serve he would be dominated by any grinder with ease.

Chirag
05-16-2012, 03:33 AM
at the end of the day they all were great years .

Just 1 question in the first stat you have what is the number mean after the year ?

Johnny Groove
05-16-2012, 03:35 AM
informative but you can't just conclude that a player has the best serve based on aces and double faults alone.

No, the Ace/DF stats are more tiebreakers over who has the better serve between Nadal and Federer.

Who exactly did Nadal face in 2010? :stupid:

We are not taking into account the quality of the field, as it is such a suggestive opinion.

I'd love to see how Serverer would do without that monster serve. He was frequently outplayed in rallies by worse opponents but managed to serve his way out of trouble every time. Olderer's ground game is overrated IMO. Without his serve he would be dominated by any grinder with ease.

Well, now this is just trolling :shrug:

abraxas21
05-16-2012, 03:35 AM
I'd love to see how Serverer would do without that monster serve. He was frequently outplayed in rallies by worse opponents but managed to serve his way out of trouble every time. Olderer's ground game is overrated IMO. Without his serve he would be dominated by any grinder with ease.

not that i agree with you (i don't actually) but the serve is part of the game and it's not worse or better than having, say, a good backhand slice.

by the same token, i could say nadal would be ranked outside the top 50 if it weren't for his topspin forehand.

abraxas21
05-16-2012, 03:36 AM
No, the Ace/DF stats are more tiebreakers over who has the better serve between Nadal and Federer.

im not sure what you mean

Topspindoctor
05-16-2012, 03:38 AM
You can't compare serve to BH slice :lol: One wins cold, hard point. The other is just a decent defensive shot.

Olderer has always one of the most effective serves on the tour. There is nothing wrong with that. I am just saying he used it to great effect to mask his error prone, high risk ground game. Most of his FH winners are set up by serve.

Give Olderer Nadal's serve...does he win 16 slams then? NO.

Johnny Groove
05-16-2012, 03:40 AM
at the end of the day they all were great years .

Just 1 question in the first stat you have what is the number mean after the year ?

Oh, that number is the amount of matches each man player in that particular year.

im not sure what you mean

Well since they are so close everywhere else. Both won the same amount of serve games and points, Fed saved 1% more break point, but Nadal faced 0.6 less break points per match, so that is a wash, Nadal won 1% more 2nd serve points, but Fed won 2% more 1st serve points, while Nadal served a 4% higher percentage, so those are a wash.

Basically, it came down to Federer hitting many more aces and hitting less double faults per match than Nadal :shrug:

BroTree123
05-16-2012, 03:42 AM
You can't compare serve to BH slice :lol: One wins cold, hard point. The other is just a decent defensive shot.

Olderer has always one of the most effective serves on the tour. There is nothing wrong with that. I am just saying he used it to great effect to mask his error prone, high risk ground game. Most of his FH winners are set up by serve.

Give Olderer Nadal's serve...does he win 16 slams then? NO.

To sum up, he's an overrated ball-bashing serve bot.

MIMIC
05-16-2012, 03:44 AM
Nice work. Fed's the best on serve, Djoker's the best when returning, and Nadal's the best....moonballer? :shrug:

I kid :cool:

Ajk822
05-16-2012, 04:17 AM
You can't compare serve to BH slice :lol: One wins cold, hard point. The other is just a decent defensive shot.

Olderer has always one of the most effective serves on the tour. There is nothing wrong with that. I am just saying he used it to great effect to mask his error prone, high risk ground game. Most of his FH winners are set up by serve.

Give Olderer Nadal's serve...does he win 16 slams then? NO.

On the other hand, if Nadal was technically skilled enough, he could have learned how to serve more effectively, and as such, won 16 slams, which he hasn't and never will.

LleytonMonfils
05-16-2012, 04:29 AM
I'd love to see how Serverer would do without that monster serve. He was frequently outplayed in rallies by worse opponents but managed to serve his way out of trouble every time. Olderer's ground game is overrated IMO. Without his serve he would be dominated by any grinder with ease.

Well at the same time Federer's serve probably saved him a few years on the tires and kept him healthy. Nadal and Djokovic grueling style of play won't allow them to play as many years as Federer. Why are you knocking on the guy for his serve? Without his serve blah blah blah. You can say that about any player and a weapon they have so what's the point? Personally all those years I was more impressed when Federer was able to dial up clutch ace after clutch ace. He seemed to always fire one off when he needed it very most. That shouldn't be ridiculed but praised. That is the mark of a great champion, you can't knock him for that.

HKz
05-16-2012, 06:06 AM
The stats are always nice but there are a few things..

1. This honestly shows that while statistically Nadal may have done better in 2010 especially in terms of the slams, I think it shows that he played much better overall in 2008. You should compare his 2008/2010 in a little more depth.
2. Federer's stats are even more amazing considering he played a total of 97 matches, while Nadal played a total of 81 matches and Djokovic played only 76. So for Federer to play many more matches and still end up with such stats makes those 2006 aspects even more amazing.

I'd love to see how Serverer would do without that monster serve. He was frequently outplayed in rallies by worse opponents but managed to serve his way out of trouble every time. Olderer's ground game is overrated IMO. Without his serve he would be dominated by any grinder with ease.

I'd love to see how Nadal would without those legs of his. He was frequently outplayed in rallies by worse opponents but managed to get balls back and luckily get out of trouble every time. Kneedal's ground game is overrated IMO. Without his legs he would be dominated by any grinder with ease.



Holy fuck. You get more asinine with every post.

Oh, that number is the amount of matches each man player in that particular year.

Where did you get those numbers? Nadal 76? Djokovic 91? I posted the right amounts at the beginning of this post.

Johnbert
05-16-2012, 06:15 AM
I'd love to see how Serverer would do without that monster serve. He was frequently outplayed in rallies by worse opponents but managed to serve his way out of trouble every time. Olderer's ground game is overrated IMO. Without his serve he would be dominated by any grinder with ease.

:haha:

green25814
05-16-2012, 07:06 AM
You can't compare serve to BH slice :lol: One wins cold, hard point. The other is just a decent defensive shot.

Olderer has always one of the most effective serves on the tour. There is nothing wrong with that. I am just saying he used it to great effect to mask his error prone, high risk ground game. Most of his FH winners are set up by serve.

Give Olderer Nadal's serve...does he win 16 slams then? NO.

Interesting, but how do you explain this in the OP?

Return games won and return points won:

Djokovic- 39% return games won, 45% return points won
Federer 2006- 32% return games won, 42% return points won
Nadal 2010- 29% (33% in 08) return games won, 40% (43% in 08) return points won

Federer in 06 outperformed Nadal in 10 on return. There's not much in it but that stat hardly suggests a player who relies only on serve.

EddieNero
05-16-2012, 07:25 AM
Take away Nadal's movement and he won't win a single match on ATP level. End of the discussion.

bokehlicious
05-16-2012, 07:49 AM
Give Olderer Nadal's serve...does he win 16 slams then? NO.

Give Nadull Gasquet's forehand and he would never have turned pro.

Haelfix
05-16-2012, 07:50 AM
A few things.

Rafa actually has a very good second serve. Its basically almost as good as Federer's, particularly when you consider the lefty factor and the fact that it sets his game up so well.

You can't conclude clutchness from any of those stats. The break point saved or won basically conforms exactly to the trends set by the first and second serves and respective returning stats. eg Its not unusual that Federer (having the best serve) saves more than the other two. Likewise its not surprising that Djokovic does really well off the return.

Federer's returning stats from 2006 are a bit of an anomaly in his career. He has one of the better years of his career on the return, and he is quite close to Novak's monster 2011 season (which is probably the best returning year ever). He also has a slightly subpar serving year, although you could argue that he played a lot on clay. So in reality his return is further from the other two, and his serve is probably a tiny bit better.

BIGMARAT
05-16-2012, 07:51 AM
another good thread turned into trolling.

EddieNero
05-16-2012, 07:56 AM
A few things.

Rafa actually has a very good second serve. Its basically almost as good as Federer's, particularly when you consider the lefty factor and the fact that it sets his game up so well.



I don't want to spoil your party but Nadal gets broken when serving for the set/match on a regular basis.

duong
05-16-2012, 08:00 AM
For your research, Nadal's best year was 2008, and it was also visible in the kinds of stats you gave here.

2010 was Nadal's best year on serve, the worst in returning games according to this kind of stats as well.

duong
05-16-2012, 08:02 AM
I don't want to spoil your party but Nadal gets broken when serving for the set/match on a regular basis.

just like Fed :shrug: ... and it also regularly happens to Djokovic, and to nearly all players on Tour, I mean considering how what they call "choking" looks like something which should be extraordinary for ordinary MTFers :lol:

duong
05-16-2012, 08:07 AM
Also interesting that the previous stats told us that Djokovic has the better first serve, but Nadal wins more points on his first delivery. Quality of the ground game, surely.

No, it just tells that Nadal had a better first serve in 2010 than Djokovic had in 2011.

2010 was Nadal's best year on serve, and Djokovic in 2011 was not back to his serving level of 2007/2008.

2011 for Djokovic was an exceptional year on return.

Djokovic had a clearly better first serve than Nadal only in his early years on Tour, since then they've been quite similar ... but Djokovic improves his serve back gradually and this year is better than last year for that. Nadal also looks better to me on first serve this year than last year.

I'm always struck by the myth that Nadal is only about "ground game" : his serve is very effective too ... and Djokovic has a great groundgame :lol: Overall, in the last years (not in the beginning of their carreer), Nadal has been more a serve-oriented player than Djokovic because he has a better second serve and a worse return.

EddieNero
05-16-2012, 08:10 AM
just like Fed :shrug: ... and it also regularly happens to Djokovic, and to nearly all players on Tour, I mean considering how what they call "choking" looks like something which should be extraordinary for ordinary MTFers :lol:

I can hardly think of any situations like this ( *52-54*) that happened to Peakerer.
Yes, it does refer to Declinerer though, who tends to choke away some matches since 2009.
Still, it's not a horrendous number, only examples that come to my mind are GS finals against Nadal or last year USO semi.

duong
05-16-2012, 08:14 AM
2nd serve points won:

60%- Nadal 2010
59% Federer 2006

Now this is a bit of a surprise. Nadal, despite having a worse 2nd serve than Fed, defends it much better.

Depends on the years but on the whole, their stats for points won on second serves have been very high (much better than the Samprases in the 90s for instance) and on average very near.

Not sure than Nadal's second serve is worse than Fed's : the spin he uses gives a lot of problems to many players.

And as for the "groundgame", Fed's and Nadal's best are quite near for points won on return on second serve on hardcourts (Fed 1% less than Nadal) ...

duong
05-16-2012, 08:27 AM
Break points faced and saved per match:

Fed 2006- 4.11 per match, 70% saved
Nadal 2010- 3.54 per match, 69% saved
Djokovic 2011- 4.62 per match, 65% saved

Now this is a bit interesting. Djokovic faced the most break points per match, and saved the least. Nadal faced the least, and saved just 1% less than Fed, who faced more per match. It can be said in this case that, on serve, Federer is the most clutch, Nadal 2nd, Djokovic 3rd.

For Djokovic, it's very special to 2011, which, contrary to probably what people think here, has been his worst year clutch-wise quite by far : I measure the "clutch-index" by "% of break points saved minus % of serve points won + 2%" (+2% because on average players save 2% less breakpoints than service points for a simple reason which is momentum).

In 2011, Djokovic was at -1.3%.
In 2010 +5.0%, in 2009 + 4.7% ! in 2008 + 0.1%, in 2007 +2.5%

Actually Djokovic's best years (2011 and 2008) have been his worst years for this index ... which is not what occurred for Nadal and Fed (rather the opposite for them : their best years were also their best years clutch-wise)

When he had more problems in his game and his service games, he concentrated more to save breakpoints : that what I saw when I remember of 2010, his worst serving year, especially.

On average since 2007 the clucth-index on serve on hardcourts has been +2% for Djokovic, + 0% for Nadal, - 1.0% for Murray, - 2.4% for Fed.

For the opposite one on return on hardcourts, on average since 2007 : Djokovic +1.5%, Nadal -0.1%, Federer -0.4%, Murray - 1.9%

Actually Djokovic has been clearly the best player for those stats among these 4 since 2007 ... except in 2011 on serve ;)

Also going with the idea that 2011 was Djokovic's worst year clutch-wise : he was bad in tie-breaks that year, while he had been on-par with Fed until then.

However, on return, Djokovic had a good year in 2011 clutch-wise, better than 2009 and 2010 (but worse than 2007 and 2008).

To sum-up here's the paradoxical conclusion for MTFers probably : Djokovic has been statistically clearly the most clutch-player of the top-4 since 2007 ... but not in his exceptional year 2011 which was bad to save breakpoints on his serve and in tie-breaks !

EddieNero
05-16-2012, 08:34 AM
Before you get excited about Nole's return stats don't forget the courts got considerably slower since 2006.
I doubt Djokovic would achieve those numbers in 2006, even If the competition was the same as nowadays.

duong
05-16-2012, 08:37 AM
2nd serve return points won:

Djokovic 2011- 58%
Nadal 2010- 55%
Federer 2006- 54%

This is a bit surprising to me, Djokovic 3 points ahead on 2nd serve returns, I’d have thought Nadal would be a bit closer here as well as further ahead of Fed than a single point.


Djokovic (and Murray in a little lesser extent) has become an exceptional return-games player in 2011 (and he practiced already in 2010 whne his serve was bad ... which probably helped him improve his returning game)

but the average since 2007 on hardcourts rather looks like what you thought :
Murray 55.8% Djokovic 54.2% Nadal 53.8% Federer 51.8%

At his best Fed was around 53-54%, yes quite near to Nadal ... despite Nadal presumably being only about groundgame blablabla :lol:

duong
05-16-2012, 08:41 AM
Before you get excited about Nole's return stats don't forget the courts got considerably slower since 2006.
I doubt Djokovic would achieve those numbers in 2006, even If the competition was the same as nowadays.

well, it's true that Djokovic, Murray and Nadal all had an exceptional year in 2011 on return comparing to their personal average, while Fed got a bit better in 2010-2011 than in 2008-2009 (his worst period for these stats and it fits with my impression on his average level these years).

Probably part of the reason is the slowdown of hardcourts, but also it's quite clear that Djokovic's return has much improved and has become one hell of a shot.

Murray has always been great on return.

duong
05-16-2012, 08:48 AM
So overall, Djokovic has far and away the best return, Federer the best serve, and Nadal the best? Mentality? Guts? Determination? Intangibles? Things that don’t show up in stats?

it's not that simple, and anyway Nadal's 2010 was not as good as Djokovic's 2011 and Fed's 2006 in reality ;)

It is also clear that Nadal 2010 had a better serve than Nadal 2008, but Nadal 2008 had a better return than Nadal 2010.

also his backhand and most importantly his energy (the latter one is very important, and just like Fed it's the main weapon they had in their best year comparing to now) were better in 2008 ... although tactically and technically (sliced backhand for instance) he improved with time ... just like Fed (backhand, serve).

asmazif
05-16-2012, 09:13 AM
Winning 55-56% of points is interesting, it always seems to be small margins. Like supermarket profits.

Topspindoctor
05-16-2012, 09:29 AM
.

I'm always struck by the myth that Nadal is only about "ground game" : his serve is very effective on grass too ... and Djokovic has a great groundgame :lol: Overall, in the last years (not in the beginning of their carreer), Nadal has been more a serve-oriented player than Djokovic because he has a better second serve and a worse return.

Fixed.

Nadal's serve is only good on grass, more specifically the slider out wide.

He relies a lot on his awesome groundgame to win rallies when it comes to HC and especially clay.

One of the reasons he struggles indoors = can't hold serve.

duong
05-16-2012, 10:10 AM
Fixed.

Nadal's serve is only good on grass, more specifically the slider out wide.

He relies a lot on his awesome groundgame to win rallies when it comes to HC and especially clay.

One of the reasons he struggles indoors = can't hold serve.

I looked at stats only on hardcourts to get comparable stats between players, because clay changes Nadal's stats obviously and grass is also a very specific surface.

And I got the facts I mentioned : of course Nadal doesn't have a serve like Federer's but he has a good serve, which troubles many players, describing Nadal as a player with a good groundgame and a bad serve like in the myth is just one of the numerous myths about Nadal. Either in a good or bad way there are many things which are wrong in what has become his "myth" (there are also things which are wrong in Fed's myth but Nadal is clearly the player about whom I've read more wrong opinions because he was too early compared with the Musters and so on and people stayed in that opinion).

pray-for-palestine-and-israel
05-16-2012, 10:26 AM
I'd love to see how Serverer would do without that monster serve.

oh just shut the f**k up you moron

you dont know shit about tennis that doesnt have to do with nadals ass hairs

but you say the stupidest crap

federer's serve in 2004-2005 wasn't even that monster

in 2006 it got better but not sampras good

it got really good post mono- when the rest of his game declined
and he still rapes nadal at WTFs


nadal only won the us open because he "FOUND" a sudden burst of mph on his serve

we all know what that means

Topspindoctor
05-16-2012, 10:34 AM
oh just shut the f**k up you moron

you dont know shit about tennis that doesnt have to do with nadals ass hairs

but you say the stupidest crap

federer's serve in 2004-2005 wasn't even that monster

in 2006 it got better but not sampras good

it got really good post mono- when the rest of his game declined
and he still rapes nadal at WTFs


nadal only won the us open because he "FOUND" a sudden burst of mph on his serve

we all know what that means
http://chzjustcapshunz.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/funny-captions-isaac-newton-are-thou-madeth-bro.jpg

Stay pressed, bitch.

GSMnadal
05-16-2012, 10:40 AM
Who exactly did Nadal face in 2010? :stupid:

Some guy named Djokovic, you probably never heard of him before.

sexybeast
05-16-2012, 11:13 AM
Alot of interesting informtion is given in the OP, but then the thread turns into this crap tard war once again.

Nadal's ability to hold service games must be one of his most underrated attributes as a player, that adcourt 1st serve and 2nd serve is so difficult to return, Nadal finds a way to dominate the 3rd shot with his forehand almost no matter where you return the ball. It is difficult to return with interest, Federer can block back monster serves from Djokovic and be in control of the point from there on, but with Nadal's serve you cant really do anything interesting at all. I would love to see the differense between Nadal's ad court serve and deuce court serve stats?

Also, Federer 2006 was not the "break once and hold serve to win set player" that Federer kind of is today, he was relentless in breaking down opponents to the point where they felt they had to fight for every game. As he moved better and had more energy to concentrate on every point, players had no way to go against him.

About Djokovic's return I feel like his 1st serve returns against great servers should be worse than Federer 2006, but he eats you up if you have an avarage 1st serve. He is one of the great returners so it comes to no surprise it is his best stats, I dont really feel Djokovic ever feels unreturnable like Nadal really does in Wimbledon and in Usopen 2010, Djokovic's serve on paper is better than Nadal's but I dont think it is so simple. Obviously Nadal has a better forehand to back up his serve and he also got a serve that perfectly sets up his forehand.

Djokovic is maybe a little bit easier to return, if you can just get back a deep low slice to the middle of the court and you should start a rally from there on. It is not that hard to get the ball to Djokovic's backhand aswell, in Nadal's case you hardle ever see the return get to Nadal's backhand but when it does you know the returner will be dominant in the rally.

Sophocles
05-16-2012, 11:21 AM
Also, I wonder whether Djoker had such confidence in his return game last year that he had a more relaxed attitude to holding his own serve - a bit like Sampras in reverse. While Sampras often tanked return games knowing he could hold serve every time, Djoker sometimes seemed to let service games go knowing he could break any time - reminiscent of Agassi at his best, when you feared more for the opponent on his own service games than on Agassi's.

Orka_n
05-16-2012, 11:21 AM
I'd love to see how Serverer would do without that monster serve. He was frequently outplayed in rallies by worse opponents but managed to serve his way out of trouble every time. Olderer's ground game is overrated IMO. Without his serve he would be dominated by any grinder with ease.Yeah, it's not like JesusFed had perhaps the best forehand in history, excellent BH slice, excellent movement, excellent BH pass & excellent touch.

All luck this Frauderer

Mark Lenders
05-16-2012, 11:25 AM
Alot of interesting informtion is given in the OP, but then the thread turns into this crap tard war once again.

Nadal's ability to hold service games must be one of his most underrated attributes as a player, that adcourt 1st serve and 2nd serve is so difficult to return, Nadal finds a way to dominate the 3rd shot with his forehand almost no matter where you return the ball. It is difficult to return with interest, Federer can block back monster serves from Djokovic and be in control of the point from there on, but with Nadal's serve you cant really do anything interesting at all. I would love to see the differense between Nadal's ad court serve and deuce court serve stats.

True. Always thought this too. While Nadal's serve isn't great in itself (in fact it's rather weak compared to great servers), his ability to hold serve is amazing.

He must be one of the most intelligent servers to play the game. What would be a liability, he has turned into a weapon, holding comfortably most times despite an underwhelming serve. Not only does he serve intelligently, he also keeps a very high 1st serve %, which only helps him even more.

Players with far bigger first serves struggle a lot more to hold serve in big matches. Although Djokovic's serve is better, Nadal's serve patterns make him a better server overall, I think.

Topspindoctor
05-16-2012, 11:29 AM
Yeah, it's not like JesusFed had perhaps the best forehand in history, excellent BH slice, excellent movement, excellent BH pass & excellent touch.

All luck this Frauderer

I already explained that I was not complaining about his serve. I'd love Nadal to have his serve. Lol. He'd be unbreakable as lefty.

What I was wondering how he'd do without it. If he had to rely on ground strokes more and not have the luxury of knowing you'll hold relatively easily.

Johnny Groove
05-16-2012, 11:33 AM
TSD, what are you trying to prove? Every player has strengths and weaknesses, if you take on away, of course they will be lesser players, you are trolling just to troll :shrug:

The stats are always nice but there are a few things..

1. This honestly shows that while statistically Nadal may have done better in 2010 especially in terms of the slams, I think it shows that he played much better overall in 2008. You should compare his 2008/2010 in a little more depth.
2. Federer's stats are even more amazing considering he played a total of 97 matches, while Nadal played a total of 81 matches and Djokovic played only 76. So for Federer to play many more matches and still end up with such stats makes those 2006 aspects even more amazing.

Where did you get those numbers? Nadal 76? Djokovic 91? I posted the right amounts at the beginning of this post.

Yep, that was a mistake, I have corrected the numbers now.

As for Nadal 2008, the rest of his numbers are a few % points lower than his numbers in 2010, when it comes to serve, but are a few % points better on return than in 2010.

it's not that simple, and anyway Nadal's 2010 was not as good as Djokovic's 2011 and Fed's 2006 in reality ;)

also his backhand and most importantly his energy (the latter one is very important, and just like Fed it's the main weapon they had in their best year comparing to now) were better in 2008 ... although tactically and technically (sliced backhand for instance) he improved with time ... just like Fed (backhand, serve).

duong, very nice analysis of my analysis in all of your posts :p

Winning 55-56% of points is interesting, it always seems to be small margins. Like supermarket profits.

I know right? You would think that in the best years of the Open Era, save for Laver '69, these guys only won 5-6% more points than 50-50, such small margins in this game.

Nole fan
05-16-2012, 12:12 PM
True. Always thought this too. While Nadal's serve isn't great in itself (in fact it's rather weak compared to great servers), his ability to hold serve is amazing.

He must be one of the most intelligent servers to play the game. What would be a liability, he has turned into a weapon, holding comfortably most times despite an underwhelming serve. Not only does he serve intelligently, he also keeps a very high 1st serve %, which only helps him even more.

Players with far bigger first serves struggle a lot more to hold serve in big matches. Although Djokovic's serve is better, Nadal's serve patterns make him a better server overall, I think.

I agree. Nadal's serve may look weak but it's all in the placement where he excels.

Orka_n
05-17-2012, 01:49 AM
I already explained that I was not complaining about his serve. I'd love Nadal to have his serve. Lol. He'd be unbreakable as lefty.

What I was wondering how he'd do without it. If he had to rely on ground strokes more and not have the luxury of knowing you'll hold relatively easily.Well, Fed's stats on return are very good too. I'd bet JesusFed would have done fine with his serve being a little weaker. Olderer however would be in real trouble without his serve.

Linque
05-17-2012, 02:22 AM
Since each player plays againt different opponents and the way tennis works is that you generally don't have big differences between two players, stats like these don't really tell much.

Also, if you wonder about the total points stat, you'll be hard pressed to win more than 80% of points ever, even in a 6-0 6-0 game. So 56% total points won isn't that surprising.

All the results tell in my opinion is that the points system in tennis matches is excellent and makes for exciting sports even if someone dominates the field.

duchuy89
05-17-2012, 03:20 AM
Thank for share. very detailed information.

masterclass
05-19-2012, 12:11 PM
Thanks for the interesting analysis Mr. Groove!
If you don't mind, I'll add the current form and compare it to the "best years" you mention. I'll use the 2012 RICOH ATP profile stats as current form. Make your own observations/conclusions...:)

Respectfully,
masterclass

I was a bit bored, so I researched some stats about the best years of the top 3, and this is what I found. All stats were conjured using the ATP's RICOH ATP match facts thingy in the player's profile pages.

Aces:

2012: Fed 7.87 (31) ^, Djokovic 5.23 (30) ^, Nadal 3.31 (32) v

6.76 per match, Fed 2006, 97
4.51 per match, Djokovic 2011, 76
3.83 per match, Nadal 2010, 81

This is no surprise, Federer has the best peak first serve, followed by Djokovic, then Nadal.

Double Faults:

2012: Nadal 1.19 (32) ^, Fed 1.55 (31) v, Djokovic 1.87 ~(30),

1.88 per match, Djokovic 2011
1.48 per match, Nadal 2010
1.22 per match, Fed 2006

Actually Djokovic has the worst valley 2nd serve, then Nadal, then Federer.

Ace-DF differential:

2012: Fed 6.32 (31) ^, Djokovic 3.46 (30) ^, Nadal 2.12 (32) v

5.54, Fed 2006
2.63, Djokvic 2011
2.35, Nadal 2010

So basically, Federer has the best first and second serve. Djokovic has a better 1st serve than Nadal, but Nadal has a better 2nd serve than Djokovic.

1st serve %:

2012: Nadal 69% (32) ^, Federer 62% (31) v, Djokovic 62% (32) v

67%- Nadal 2010
65%- Djokovic 2011
63%- Federer 2006

In terms of percentage, again not a surprise here.

1st serve points won:

2012: Fed 79% (31) ^, Djokovic 73% (30) v, Nadal 74% (32) v

77%- Federer 2006
75%- Nadal 2010
74%- Djokovic 2011

I’m surprised Fed is not further ahead here. Also interesting that the previous stats told us that Djokovic has the better first serve, but Nadal wins more points on his first delivery. Quality of the ground game, surely.

2nd serve points won:

2012: Fed 61% (31) ^, Djokovic 58% (30) ^, Nadal 56% (32) v

60%- Nadal 2010
59% Federer 2006
56%- Djokovic 2011

Now this is a bit of a surprise. Nadal, despite having a worse 2nd serve than Fed, defends it much better. Djokovic, who’s 2nd serve is the worst, predictably ranks lowest here.

Break points faced and saved per match:

2012: Fed 3.35/match, 74% (31) ^, Djokovic 4.93/match 67% (30) ~, Nadal 5.03/match 70% (32) v

Fed 2006- 4.11 per match, 70% saved
Nadal 2010- 3.98 per match, 69% saved
Djokovic 2011- 4.62 per match, 65% saved

Now this is a bit interesting. Djokovic faced the most break points per match, and saved the least. Nadal faced the least, and saved just 1% less than Fed, who faced more per match. It can be said in this case that, on serve, Federer is the most clutch, Nadal 2nd, Djokovic 3rd. On return is another story, as we’ll see in a little bit.

Service games won and serve points won per match:

2012: Fed 93%, 73% (31) ^, Djokovic 86%, 68% (30) ~, Nadal 87%, 68% (32) v

Fed 2006- 90% serve games, 70% serve points
Nadal 2010- 90% serve games, 70% serve points
Djokovic 2011- 86% serve games, 68% serve points

Interestingly, both Fed and Nadal won 90% of their serve games and 70% serve points. I’d have thought Fed would be better here. Djoker just a bit below.

1st serve return points won:

2012: Nadal 39% (32) ^, Djokovic 34% (30) v, Federer 31% (31) v


Djokovic 2011- 36%
Federer 2006- 35%
Nadal 2010- 31% (34% in 2008)

t can be said here, that Djokovic returns the first serve the best, followed by Fed, and Nadal far behind. This conforms to general wisdom.

2nd serve return points won:

2012: Djokovic 59% (30) ^, Nadal 54% (32) v, Federer 50% (31) v

Djokovic 2011- 58%
Nadal 2010- 55%
Federer 2006- 54%

This is a bit surprising to me, Djokovic 3 points ahead on 2nd serve returns, I’d have thought Nadal would be a bit closer here as well as further ahead of Fed than a single point.

Break point chances and conversions:

2012: Djokovic 9.23/match, 44% (30) ^, Nadal 9.09/match, 46% (32) ^, Federer 7.00/match, 42% (31) v

Djokovic 2011- 9.11 per match, 48% conversion
Nadal 2010: 8.32 per match, 44% conversion
Federer 2006: 9.02 per match, 43% conversion

Again, Djokovic surprising me here. On return, he is clearly the best by a good margin, creating and converting more chance than both Fed or Nadal. Rafa creating fewer, but converting more than Fed.

Return games won and return points won:

2012: Nadal 37%, 46% (32) ^ Djokovic 35%, 44% (30) v, Federer 26%, 39% (31) v

Djokovic- 39% return games won, 45% return points won
Federer 2006- 32% return games won, 42% return points won
Nadal 2010- 29% (33% in 08) return games won, 40% (43% in 08) return points won

Shockingly, Federer won more return points and games than Nadal 2010, but not Nadal 2008. Djokovic still way ahead.

Total points won:

2012: Nadal 56% (32) ^ Djokovic 55% (30) v, Federer 55% (31) v

Djokovic 2011- 56%
Federer 2006- 56%
Nadal 2010- 55%

I think it’s a bit interesting that the Top 3’s best years, some of the best years in the history of the game, all 3 slam seasons, they all won only 55-56% of the points they played. :shrug:

So overall, Djokovic has far and away the best return, Federer the best serve, and Nadal the best? Mentality? Guts? Determination? Intangibles? Things that don’t show up in stats? It is also clear that Nadal 2010 had a better serve than Nadal 2008, but Nadal 2008 had a better return than Nadal 2010.

Roamed
05-19-2012, 12:21 PM
Thanks for the interesting analysis Mr. Groove!
If you don't mind, I'll add the current form and compare it to the "best years" you mention. I'll use the 2012 RICOH ATP profile stats as current form. Make your own observations/conclusions...:)

Respectfully,
masterclass




Fascinating, thank you! So Fed is doing better on serve than in his best year, but worse on return..

Johnny Groove
05-19-2012, 12:23 PM
Nadal returning the first serve better than ever, and winning more on the return, but serving not as well in 2012 :scratch:

masterclass
05-19-2012, 12:35 PM
Fascinating, thank you! So Fed is doing better on serve than in his best year, but worse on return..

Yes, Roamed, that's my assessment also on Mr. Federer. I think the serve stats for Federer are amazing in 2012. He's not only rolled back the years, he's bested them. His return stats are definitely less impressive when compared to his best year. In a way, for him to stay near the top as he has, he had to improve a major part of his game, and the serve is probably the most logical and easiest to do. It's difficult to beat a player that is difficult to break. His break chances and percentage have sharply declined from his best, but he doesn't need them to be quite as good as long as he is holding his serve.

Also, one might venture a guess that since more of the faster conditions have been made slower, it's more difficult for a player with his aggressive style to break and easier for defensive players to break. Federer must take more chances and more risk, so is not succeeding as much overall. The winners vs unforced errors stats are not included here, but I would be willing to bet his unforced errors amount has increased.

Now what about Djokovic and Nadal? Their best years are not as far back, especially in Djokovic's case, but there are some differences. It looks like Nadal's service has declined, but his return game is up, whereas Djokovic's service is close to the same, but his return game is down from 2011.

Respectfully,
masterclass

masterclass
05-19-2012, 12:36 PM
Nadal returning the first serve better than ever, and winning more on the return, but serving not as well in 2012 :scratch:

Yep. :yeah:

Respectfully,
masterclass

Ash86
05-19-2012, 12:39 PM
Nadal returning the first serve better than ever, and winning more on the return, but serving not as well in 2012 :scratch:

Surely this is skewed somewhat by the fact that he had some outrageous serving in 2010 especially around US Open-Shanghai that's never going to come back - to expect that level is unrealistic. And also by the fact that he always returns better and breaks more on slower surfaces - his % for the year will decrease when we move to fast HCs and indoor.

Comparing numbers for a whole season vs half a season isn't totally the same. But overall I think there is a trend - Fed's been progressively getting worse at returning - he's not that good at breaking top servers (Raonic, Isner etc.) as he used to be and even struggles with Nadal/Djokovic returns. Conversely his serve has been as solid as ever delivering aces and unreturnables just when he needs them.

Nadal's seemed more vulnerable on serve at times, facing many BPs, but then he's also been a lot better at saving them than last year. With him the biggest change has been his BH, his fitness and also his mentality - he can stay in long rallies with the very best and win the point and still have energy - last year he lost that a bit and certainly wasn't as mentality tough as in the past....

Novak's still as great at returning - his biggest weakness this year has been the serve- the easiest to break of the top 3 and really, with Nadal's first serve vs Novak's, that shouldn't be the case. Nadal's 2nd serve is better though and he protects it better. If Novak gets his serve nearer to where it was in 2011 he'll be cruising easily once more....

sexybeast
05-19-2012, 12:40 PM
Nadal returning the first serve better than ever, and winning more on the return, but serving not as well in 2012 :scratch:

"fastcourt" season hasnt started yet, we may have to wait for grass season, american hardcourt season and indoor season for some stats to even out.

Federer's serving during slowcourt season has been formidable. Ofcourse he has played some faster courts than usual like Rotterdam, Dubai and Madrid.

arm
05-19-2012, 12:51 PM
It doesn't tell us anything we already didn't know, tbh. Nole is the easiest player to break serve, but breaking him doesn't mean much, because he is also the one who breaks the opponent more often. Nole's game is based on the return and how easily he breaks his opponents, it's how he wins matches. As for Roger and Nadal, they are far more consistent on their own serve, but don't break nearly as often as Nole does.

Ash86
05-19-2012, 12:54 PM
It doesn't tell us anything we already didn't know, tbh. Nole is the easiest player to break serve, but breaking him doesn't mean much, because he is also the one who breaks the opponent more often. Nole's game is based on the return and how easily he breaks his opponents, it's how he wins matches. As for Roger and Nadal, they are far more consistent on their own serve, but don't break nearly as often as Nole does.

Nadal and Roger not in the same league here though. Roger holds serve WAY more easily than Nadal but doesn't break much. Nadal can be broken easier than Roger but also breaks way more. Nadal's probably second to Novak in breaking serve and on clay it has to be pretty even - the ratio of breaks to being broken is the key to success for Nadal and Novak - this year the gap between how often Novak breaks serve and how often Nadal does is a bit less...

arm
05-19-2012, 12:55 PM
Also, I wonder whether Djoker had such confidence in his return game last year that he had a more relaxed attitude to holding his own serve - a bit like Sampras in reverse. While Sampras often tanked return games knowing he could hold serve every time, Djoker sometimes seemed to let service games go knowing he could break any time - reminiscent of Agassi at his best, when you feared more for the opponent on his own service games than on Agassi's.

Exactly. Sometimes I feel that he is more likely to win the opponents service games than his own. :lol: Which is why breaking Novak Djokovic doesn't mean much.

arm
05-19-2012, 12:58 PM
Nadal and Roger not in the same league here though. Roger holds serve WAY more easily than Nadal but doesn't break much. Nadal can be broken easier than Roger but also breaks way more. Nadal's probably second to Novak in breaking serve and on clay it has to be pretty even - the ratio of breaks to being broken is the key to success for Nadal and Novak - this year the gap between how often Novak breaks serve and how often Nadal does is a bit less...

Yep, Rafa is a mix of Nole and Roger. He wins his service games easier than Nole for differnt reasons than Federer does. Roger has a great serve, if anyone asks me what weapon I would want Nole to get, for sure it would be Roger's 1st and 2nd serve.