Study: Homophobia is linked to gay desires. [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Study: Homophobia is linked to gay desires.

Filo V.
04-10-2012, 12:06 AM
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/325417/20120409/homophobes-same-sex-gay-lesbian-attracted-people.htm

Homophobes Might Be Secretly Attracted To People Of The Same Sex

Homophobes are a group of people who have a negative feeling towards homosexuality, but a group of researchers' claims that homophobes are more attracted to the same sex.

Researchers from the University of Rochester, the University of Essex and the University of California in Santa Barbara have discovered that homophobes are actually attracted to the same sex but they are not admitting it because they grew up with authoritarian parents who forbade such desires. They found this when they conducted a series of psychology studies.

Researchers claim that people who claim themselves as straight and people who hate homosexuality are actually attracted to the same sex. They believe that homosexual people remind them of similar tendencies within themselves

"Individuals who identify as straight but in psychological tests show a strong attraction to the same sex may be threatened by gays and lesbians because homosexuals remind them of similar tendencies within themselves," said Netta Weinstein, a lecturer at the University of Essex, in a statement.

Researchers had conducted four separate experiments in the United States and Germany, with each study involving an average of 160 college students. To explore participants' explicit and implicit sexual attraction, the researchers measured the discrepancies between what people say about their sexual orientation and how they react during a split-second timed task.

During the experiment, students were shown words and pictures on a computer screen and asked to put these in "gay" or "straight" categories. Before each of the 50 trials, participants were subliminally primed with either the word "me" or "others" flashed on the screen for 35 milliseconds. They were then shown the words "gay," "straight," "homosexual," and "heterosexual" as well as pictures of straight and gay couples, and the computer tracked precisely their response times. A faster association of "me" with "gay" and a slower association of "me" with "straight" indicated an implicit gay orientation.

A second experiment, in which subjects were free to browse same-sex or opposite-sex photos, provided an additional measure of implicit sexual attraction.

Through a series of questionnaires, participants also reported on the type of parenting they experienced growing up, from authoritarian to democratic. Students were asked to agree or disagree with statements like: "I felt controlled and pressured in certain ways," and "I felt free to be who I am." For gauging the level of homophobia in a household, subjects responded to items like: "It would be upsetting for my mom to find out she was alone with a lesbian" or "My dad avoids gay men whenever possible."

Finally, the researcher measured participants' level of homophobia - both overt expressed in questionnaires on social policy and beliefs, and implicit, as revealed in word-completion tasks. In the latter, students wrote down the first three words that came to mind, for example for the prompt "k i _ _". The study tracked the increase in the amount of aggressive words elicited after subliminally priming subjects with the word "gay" for 35 milliseconds.

Across all the studies, participants with supportive and accepting parents were more in touch with their implicit sexual orientation, while participants from authoritarian homes revealed the most discrepancy between explicit and implicit attraction.

Researchers found that homophobic people are actually attracted to the same sex. They claim that these individuals risk losing the love and approval of their parents if they admit to same sex attractions, so many people deny or repress that part of them.

"In a predominately heterosexual society, 'know thyself' can be a challenge for many gay individuals. But in controlling and homophobic homes, embracing a minority sexual orientation can be terrifying," said Weinstein.

The research also sheds light on high profile cases in which anti-gay public figures are caught engaging in same-sex sexual acts. The authors write that this dynamic of inner conflict may be reflected in such examples as Ted Haggard, the evangelical preacher who opposed gay marriage but was exposed in a gay sex scandal in 2006, and Glenn Murphy, Jr, former chairman of the Young Republican National Federation and vocal opponent of gay marriage, who was accused of sexually assaulting a 22-year-old man in 2007.

"This study shows that if you are feeling that kind of visceral reaction to an out-group, ask yourself, 'Why?'" says William Ryan, professor at the University of California in Santa Barbara. "Those intense emotions should serve as a call to self-reflection."

Filo V.
04-10-2012, 12:13 AM
We in the gay community know this already. I've fucked a few homophobes, most of them tending to be bottoms. And I'm talking about loud bottoms. But a lot of straight people will deny this, even when GAY PEOPLE will tell them how often this works out as true.

Now, does this mean all homophobes are gay? No. Absolutely not. It just means that homophobia is, at it's base level, connected to, at the very least, an insecurity in ones' sexuality. INSECURITY. And yes, that means countries in Eastern Europe, the Middle East, East Asia, Africa. Where homosexuality is RAMPANT on the down-low. Homosexuality in these countries, ESPECIALLY Eastern Europe and the Middle East, is both used for gain and used as a weapon to discriminate. And it's all because of insecurity and power. Homophobia is all about insecurity and insecurity is a fear based trait. Which is why homophobia is a personality disorder, it's irrational fear.

Also, to people who say "what about religion" or "what about people who are raised to be homophobic". EVERYONE is raised in a homophobic culture to some extent. There is no culture that is free from homophobia, yet there are BILLIONS of individuals in these cultures who are free from this bigotry. So that doesn't apply here. There comes a time and point where that excuse ends.

Lastly, one can be anti-gay and not homophobic, but being anti-gay is simply a moral failure. Aliomeh is a prime example of that. I don't think he's homophobic. He's just a BIGOT. And some people, they are just like that, they are simply bigoted assholes.

Anyway, discuss.

Li Ching Yuen
04-10-2012, 12:28 AM
Not homophobic but a lot of people are just being uncomfortable around gays, it's not personal, just a matter of being in a unfamiliar situation. On the other end there are also flaws in that the "community" often takes it too serious.

On the bright side, this is a transitional period, it'll get better for you down the road.

Filo V.
04-10-2012, 12:41 AM
Not homophobic but a lot of people are just being uncomfortable around gays, it's not personal, just a matter of being in a unfamiliar situation. On the other end there are also flaws in that the "community" often takes it too serious. Your last sentence is very true, but it is homophobia. The whole unfamiliar thing, yeah, it works to a certain extent. Although that alone is irrational. Because to be uncomfortable around gay people is to basically declare gay people as a different species. It's like.............no-one declares discomfort around vegetarians. No-one says, I am uncomfortable around them. You may think they're weird but discomfort? No-one says this about blonds. I'm uncomfortable around them, because of their hair.

Being uncomfortable in a different culture is one thing. But discomfort with a human being for something you can't even see is way different. You can't see gay unless someone basically displays it, so how can a person be uncomfortable unless they tell themselves they will be? Or their minds are damaged to the point any basic relations with gay people causes anxiety?

That's why homophobia is seen as a personality disorder, though. The anxiety factor.

On the bright side, this is a transitional period, it'll get better for you down the road.It's already getting better! :cheerleader:

And talking about it gets better, Dan Savage is awesome and deserves a ton of credit for these improvements :)

Aloimeh
04-10-2012, 01:22 AM
http://www.karmathaimassage.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Hippo-Yawn.jpg

Filo V.
04-10-2012, 01:29 AM
Of course we knew resident bigot Aliomeh would make an appearance. I actually didn't intent to bait him, but knew in the back of my mind he could not NOT come here. Because, like all bigots, they are desperate to not only flaunt their bigotry but justify it.

Aloimeh
04-10-2012, 02:04 AM
Of course we knew resident bigot Aliomeh would make an appearance. I actually didn't intent to bait him, but knew in the back of my mind he could not NOT come here. Because, like all bigots, they are desperate to not only flaunt their bigotry but justify it.

http://sadmoose.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/dog-yawn.jpg

emotion
04-10-2012, 02:06 AM
not surprising

abraxas21
04-10-2012, 02:16 AM
filo v speaking up the truth

Ilovetheblues_86
04-10-2012, 02:16 AM
I am very unconfortable around vegetarians and people that defend animals too much sometimes :p

Also with atheists rationalistics and ceptics like Hutchins and Dawkins.

To fans of Nadal I got used to. :scratch:

I also dont like people with bad taste with music, they made me feel very unconfortable.

I think that what can be different from our ideas or way to live life its normal for people to feel unconfortable and the challenge is to know how to live with the different eh.

Clay Death
04-10-2012, 02:27 AM
what about the other side of the ledger filo v?

what about homophobic women? would their homophobia be linked in some way to gay desires also?


in other words, are the differences significant with homophobic women? also how reliable are these studies?

men and women are a world apart as we all know.

Filo V.
04-10-2012, 02:32 AM
I am very unconfortable around vegetarians and people that defend animals too much sometimes :p :crying2:

I'm sort of like, in that whole crowd. I'm basically a stereotypical alternative city-slicker liberal type. But don't worry, I'm not a fanatic about vegetarianism nor pet safety and care (although I am totally a supporter of both since both are hugely important :angel:)

I think that what can be different from our ideas or way to live life its normal for people to feel unconfortable and the challenge is to know how to live with the different eh.
True, but ideas are different than actually being uncomfortable with a persons' entire being. I understand being uncomfortable with people who have different life values, different beliefs, are from different cultures. But at the end of the day, we're all different to some degree yet we all also understand to treat others the way you want to be treated. Being uncomfortable with an individuals' actions is way different than having discomfort with what they are immutably.

Filo V.
04-10-2012, 02:35 AM
what about the other side of the ledger filo v?

what about homophobic women? would their homophobia be linked in some way to gay desires also?


in other words, are the differences significant with homophobic women?

men and women are a world apart as we all know.

Yes, it applies. This particular study was done with both males and females involved. Women in general tend to be less homophobic. Their homophobia tends to be applied differently, too. That's just based on personal experience. But yeah, there are plenty of anti-gay closeted lesbians around. In fact one of them, who is a legislator, was just outed recently (actually came out herself, before she was about to be outed).

Filo V.
04-10-2012, 02:40 AM
filo v speaking up the truth

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxzdzvhhUe1qdlkgg.gif

buddyholly
04-10-2012, 02:40 AM
Researchers from the University of Rochester, the University of Essex and the University of California in Santa Barbara have discovered that homophobes are actually attracted to the same sex but they are not admitting it because they grew up with authoritarian parents who forbade such desires. They found this when they conducted a series of psychology studies.



If that was changed to ''US evangelical homophobes are actually attracted to the same sex............'', then I think the statistics are solid.

Aloimeh
04-10-2012, 03:18 AM
If that was changed to ''US evangelical homophobes are actually attracted to the same sex............'', then I think the statistics are solid.

http://travel4wildlife.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/warthog-mate.jpg

BroTree123
04-10-2012, 03:21 AM
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxzdzvhhUe1qdlkgg.gif

It'd be more appropriate if that was a guy.

v-money
04-10-2012, 03:23 AM
I believe it. I've always had a theory that Tipsy is a closet homosexual, which is why he makes homophobic comments and puts on a macho persona. Then when I saw that picture of him in the funny pics section with long blonde hair and a pink overgrip, from back in the day, it further added to my suspicions.

Filo V.
04-10-2012, 03:27 AM
Janko is disgusting. I'll let the straights can have him :lol:

Filo V.
04-10-2012, 03:29 AM
Kirk Cameron is closeted, though. Former Growing Pains actor now preacher, he used to troll the parks for sex and he used to be a rentboy.

Filo V.
04-10-2012, 03:30 AM
It'd be more appropriate if that was a guy.

It's about the divaness.

Filo V.
04-10-2012, 03:32 AM
If that was changed to ''US evangelical homophobes are actually attracted to the same sex............'', then I think the statistics are solid.

Well, they are basically the ones being discussed in the study. They are the reason why people have though closet cases were gay since so many of these preachers have been outed.

I know preachers who are on the 'low in Virginia. The church is basically a feeding ground for all types of illicit sexual activity.

Aloimeh
04-10-2012, 03:33 AM
Breaking News!

Men who oppose abortion are really transgendered ex-women who want to abort their pregnancies or feel guilty about have done so already.

Ku Klux Klan grand dragons are really blacks wearing mime makeup, or would rather be black than white.

People who say they are straight are really closeted gays. Gay is the normal default, straights were forced to be straight by their in-the-closet straight-acting-but-actually-gay parents.

Aloimeh
04-10-2012, 03:37 AM
Btw, the study is piss poor. I wouldn't deny some of the conclusions and happen to think they are valid based on anecdotal evidence, but the study is garbage. There is no rational link between a subliminal flashing words, images, and "real" orientation.

Filo V.
04-10-2012, 03:47 AM
There are other studies. This is another thing that medical organizations essentially all agree on. There have been studies where basically, men take tests and the ones who test out as homophobic tend to get boners when thinking about gay sex. They say the two main reasons for that are a) attraction and b) anxiety. So either they are non-heterosexuals in denial, non-heterosexuals who know they are non-heterosexuals and scared about being homosexual, or heterosexuals who are deeply, borderline pathologically insecure about homosexuality. In any case, it ain't too flattering.

v-money
04-10-2012, 03:51 AM
I think there is a difference between someone who opposes same sex relationships and someone who is a homophobe - actually has a phobia of this kind of lifestyle. I think the latter are much more likely to be homosexual themselves and they have homophobia because they themselves are afraid of being found out. Look at someone like Idaho's senator Larry Craig as an example. The guy was extremely anti-homosexuality, to a point where I would call him homophobic, and then he gets caught trying to have gay sex.

Filo V.
04-10-2012, 05:04 AM
True. I definitely agree. Not all homophobes are actually clinically homophobes. They're just ignorant assholes, brainwashed, or simply have bad experiences with gay people that have damaged them. Aloimeh falls under the ignorant asshole description. Rick Santorum, he seems straight to me, and he's simply a bigot. Same with Mitt Romney.

Then you have others. Which would be Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council for example. He has young men in his house during night hours. And if you think it's just for discussion reasons, think again.

out_here_grindin
04-10-2012, 05:11 AM
Breaking News!

Men who oppose abortion are really transgendered ex-women who want to abort their pregnancies or feel guilty about have done so already.

Ku Klux Klan grand dragons are really blacks wearing mime makeup, or would rather be black than white.

People who say they are straight are really closeted gays. Gay is the normal default, straights were forced to be straight by their in-the-closet straight-acting-but-actually-gay parents.


I think Filo is a closeted heterosexual

RagingLamb
04-10-2012, 05:29 AM
This is not the first time researchers have found this.

The first time I heard about a similar finding (a study found that those with homophobic tendencies showed greater physiological arousal when shown pictures of men) was more than 12 years ago.

The researchers in the study I mentioned conducted the experiment to verify one of Freud's defence mechanisms, but I forget which one.

Jverweij
04-10-2012, 09:47 AM
these results do not surprise me one bit. I can actually understand someone who's been taught that being gay is something bad discovering he has gay feelings going berserko on the gay community as a form of ego protection. Must be hard to feel so bad about your own feelings. This does not mean I approve of that kind of behavior ofcourse. Personally I really don't get the problems people have with gays and lesbians... just because there are more straights, doesn't make it a 'better' form of sexual orientation...

MaxPower
04-10-2012, 11:30 AM
Honestly this homophobia thing is very irrational but so are many phobias. Some homophobes are definitely closet gays. Nothing strange about that. It's very common psychological defense mechanism. Like many body builders often were weak and even bullied in school and sometimes ended up overcompensating big time. I think us men often work that way. Insecurity--> enormous overcompensation. It's true that men who are really secure about themselves would never have to insult or fear homosexuals.

I think another reason some straight men are uncomfortable is that some gay people are very "in your face" like they sort of everyday have to remind everyone that they are gay and find reasons for people to dislike them and seek confrontation almost like they want it. You see it on internet all the time too. I think the majority of men (at least in Sweden) have a big "whatever" feel and think that every mans sexuality is his own business just like his religion and other personal things.

but yeah to illustrate that last point in a very funny way:

VZDeAMNIXg8

Filo V.
04-10-2012, 12:31 PM
I think another reason some straight men are uncomfortable is that some gay people are very "in your face" like they sort of everyday have to remind everyone that they are gay and find reasons for people to dislike them and seek confrontation almost like they want it. You see it on internet all the time too. I think the majority of men (at least in Sweden) have a big "whatever" feel and think that every mans sexuality is his own business just like his religion and other personal things.
That's really just a stereotype, and it's an insulting one because saying some gays are "in your face" all the time is something that can be reversed easily. Heterosexuality is in my face constantly, always in my face, always being pushed and promoted, yet gay people are not saying keep that out of my face, nor why do straight people flaunt their sexuality, nor they need to constantly do this and do that. No-one insults straight people for doing the SAME EXACT things gay people do and get insulted for. It's bullshit.

Also, it's an attack of fem gay men. That they're fem because they choose to be, and choose to try to make the lives of insecure straights harder. That's bullshit, too. Some gay men simply are more feminine. That's just what it is. They are not so concerned with the lives of homophobes that they are going to choose to be overly feminine-acting. Since fem gays are the ones who are SIGNIFICANTLY more likely to get gay bashed.

How can you remind someone that you're gay unless you actually tell them? You can't see gay. So really, that statement is certain straight people, with privilege, making things about them. And being completely one-track minded. People who think this way don't accept gay people. It's the whole "I have no problem if you're gay UNLESS I am confronted with it" (ie. as long as it's closeted it's fine) That's not acceptance. It's tolerance. A lot of people seek to think the two are the same and they're not.

Filo V.
04-10-2012, 12:38 PM
Again, to make it clear, tolerance and acceptance are two different things. Acceptance means accepting things as real and accepting that real thing as OK when it it's presence.

Tolerance is accepting that real thing as OK, as long as you don't have to be confronted with that real thing. As long as that real thing doesn't bother you or affect your sensibilities. It's conditional acceptance, acceptance on your own accord. Real acceptance means accepting something without conditions.

I hate the message of tolerance. You either accept something as OK or you don't. Especially when it comes to human beings, in particular, immutable traits. I don't want to be tolerated like I am something that should be kept at a distance, like I am mistrusted. Respecting me and my community means accepting me and my community. And that only goes for me. But for anything, for everyone who deserve it. Accepting them for who they are is respecting them and their humanity.

Filo V.
04-10-2012, 12:42 PM
I also have to say, this study is NOT saying all homophobes are gay. It's saying that being gay and in the closet, being someone with same-sex desires, whether conscious or subconscious, AND being self-hating and in the closet, makes one likely to be homophobic. It just so happens that homophobes=gay as well, it's somewhat coincidence, because given the fact it's self-hating gays who tend to be homophobic, well, secure heterosexuals are not homophobes, so it works both ways. It's causation, it's 1+1=2. Being gay/bisexual/etc. + growing up in religious/socially conservative households = self hating, homophobic gays. So it's really a pretty interesting thing in that there are a lot of factors involved.

Sapeod
04-10-2012, 02:23 PM
It seems as if every time I see a thread created by you, it's either about yourself or homophobia. Why?

Filo V.
04-10-2012, 02:33 PM
Because you're not looking hard enough.

MaxPower
04-11-2012, 03:14 AM
That's really just a stereotype, and it's an insulting one because saying some gays are "in your face" all the time is something that can be reversed easily. Heterosexuality is in my face constantly, always in my face, always being pushed and promoted, yet gay people are not saying keep that out of my face, nor why do straight people flaunt their sexuality, nor they need to constantly do this and do that. No-one insults straight people for doing the SAME EXACT things gay people do and get insulted for. It's bullshit.

Also, it's an attack of fem gay men. That they're fem because they choose to be, and choose to try to make the lives of insecure straights harder. That's bullshit, too. Some gay men simply are more feminine. That's just what it is. They are not so concerned with the lives of homophobes that they are going to choose to be overly feminine-acting. Since fem gays are the ones who are SIGNIFICANTLY more likely to get gay bashed.

How can you remind someone that you're gay unless you actually tell them? You can't see gay. So really, that statement is certain straight people, with privilege, making things about them. And being completely one-track minded. People who think this way don't accept gay people. It's the whole "I have no problem if you're gay UNLESS I am confronted with it" (ie. as long as it's closeted it's fine) That's not acceptance. It's tolerance. A lot of people seek to think the two are the same and they're not.

That was not the point. For example, if a vegan approaches me when I'm eating a burger and starts doing a long rant about how meat is murder and that I'm a bad person I might politely ask him to mind his own business. Does that mean i don't tolerate or accept vegans? Nope. I have no problem at all with their lifestyle, them as a group and I would fully support their rights. But he/she has no right to push his/her lifestyle upon me if I don't want to. If a black person acts like a total d-bag on the bus annoying passengers and I walk up to him and ask him to calm down and take a seat does that mean I'm a racist? hell no. I'd do the same to anyone acting that way regardless of skin color.

Point is that just because you are homosexual you don't get a free card to act however you like and then call homophobia on any reaction. Normal social rules still apply. Heterosexuals have a big amount of douchebags, I'm 100% sure homosexuals have a slight percentage of douchebags too. Those douchebags are a reason behind much of the hate. Miniorities suffer worse when people generalize and that's wrong but it's not gonna change anytime soon. It still doesn't mean that all gays are innocent victims. Tolerance and acceptance goes both ways.

Filo V.
04-11-2012, 04:42 AM
That was not the point. For example, if a vegan approaches me when I'm eating a burger and starts doing a long rant about how meat is murder and that I'm a bad person I might politely ask him to mind his own business. Does that mean i don't tolerate or accept vegans? Nope. I have no problem at all with their lifestyle, them as a group and I would fully support their rights. But he/she has no right to push his/her lifestyle upon me if I don't want to. If a black person acts like a total d-bag on the bus annoying passengers and I walk up to him and ask him to calm down and take a seat does that mean I'm a racist? hell no. I'd do the same to anyone acting that way regardless of skin color.Yeah, I understand your vegan analogy, but what you said is still a stereotype. It's a stereotype that gay people, and really, feminine gay men, INTENTIONALLY flaunt their sexuality, which is false. Veganism is a moral choice and gay is a sexual orientation, so the two aren't comparable and gay isn't a lifestyle. You can't force a sexual orientation on someone. Unless someone is forcing you to watch and/or participate in gay sex, or someone is literally going up to random individuals and saying "hey, I'm gay" just to say they're gay, than no, no-one is forcing sexuality.

Criticizing someone on the basis of their behavior is one thing. But criticizing someone on the basis of their behavior and connecting that to who they are as an individual, is a different thing entirely.

Point is that just because you are homosexual you don't get a free card to act however you like and then call homophobia on any reaction. Normal social rules still apply. Social rules and expectations are different for minorities of any group. So that doesn't really apply here, because you're telling gay people to act like heterosexuals. That's what "normal social rules" mean. But we're not heterosexuals. So telling us to "act" a certain way to fit into a society that, in many ways, shows they don't want us around, isn't going to happen. The gay community, we're not idiots, we know how to handle ourselves like reasonable human beings, and that's all it should come down to.

Heterosexuals have a big amount of douchebags, I'm 100% sure homosexuals have a slight percentage of douchebags too. Those douchebags are a reason behind much of the hate.True, but the problem again is that gay people are judged based on the actions of few AND these actions are always attributed to sexuality rather than character. The reason behind hate is ignorance and/or fear. Because there are many heterosexual douchebags, true, and we don't see gay people hating all straights, or telling straight people how to act. None of that is going on.

It still doesn't mean that all gays are innocent victims. Tolerance and acceptance goes both ways.Tolerance and acceptance doesn't go both ways in every circumstances. Wrong is wrong. Right is right. Homophobia is wrong. Homophobia isn't to be tolerated and accepted. "Social norms" that are inherently discriminatory aren't to be tolerated and accepted. Not all gays are innocent victims but every single gay person alive IS a victim of homophobia to some extent, as are ALL straight people. Homophobia affects us all to some degree. This is the reality. What needs to be done is judge people on the basis of character and not sexuality. Do that, and most of these schisms between the gay and straight community, between straight gay rights supporters and anti-gay straights, between anti-gays and gays, etc. will all have solutions. In fact, they wouldn't be issues in the first place.

SerialKillerToBe
04-11-2012, 05:32 AM
Filo, slightly off topic, but do you think Morrissey is gay? He's never clearly said it but there's been a lot of debate.

Filo V.
04-11-2012, 05:45 AM
He's bisexual/open sexually.

Filo V.
04-11-2012, 05:47 AM
We all know how the sayings go when it comes to male musicians. You haven't really made it big time until you get a cock in your mouth.

SerialKillerToBe
04-11-2012, 05:50 AM
Makes sense. For some reason it completely slipped my mind that there are more than 2 sexualities. :stupid:

Filo V.
04-11-2012, 05:53 AM
Makes sense. For some reason it completely slipped my mind that there are more than 2 sexualities. :stupid:Don't worry, it happens to us all at one point :lol:

Hensafmurrafter
04-11-2012, 06:12 AM
Again, to make it clear, tolerance and acceptance are two different things. Acceptance means accepting things as real and accepting that real thing as OK when it it's presence.

Tolerance is accepting that real thing as OK, as long as you don't have to be confronted with that real thing. As long as that real thing doesn't bother you or affect your sensibilities. It's conditional acceptance, acceptance on your own accord. Real acceptance means accepting something without conditions.

I hate the message of tolerance. You either accept something as OK or you don't. Especially when it comes to human beings, in particular, immutable traits. I don't want to be tolerated like I am something that should be kept at a distance, like I am mistrusted. Respecting me and my community means accepting me and my community. And that only goes for me. But for anything, for everyone who deserve it. Accepting them for who they are is respecting them and their humanity.

I wish I could good-rep you, but it appears i must spread some reputation around before giving you more. I'm right there with you, Filo.

Filo V.
04-12-2012, 12:56 PM
I wish I could good-rep you, but it appears i must spread some reputation around before giving you more. I'm right there with you, Filo.

:hug: Thank you, I........we appreciate it!

Time Violation
04-12-2012, 01:11 PM
Tolerance is accepting that real thing as OK, as long as you don't have to be confronted with that real thing.

Well, can you really accept something if you are not confronted in the first place? :) People can speak (for example) whether they would be ok or no if their kids were gay, but if they don't have any kids in the first place, that's just what-if/speaking in theory.

Filo V.
04-12-2012, 01:27 PM
That's a good point, and you're right. In a way, that's sort of the test, when confronted with anything that may be "different" than one expects. Someones' head may tell them one thing, but their instincts will tell them something else.

Pirata.
04-12-2012, 07:27 PM
This is how I imagine Filo V when posting on this forum.

http://i.imgur.com/5hHsR.gif

Gagsquet
04-12-2012, 07:32 PM
He has no job, posting is his only activity of the day.

abraxas21
04-12-2012, 10:28 PM
what's wrong with that

MTF is my life

Filo V.
04-12-2012, 11:08 PM
I actually am doing school.........the past few days I haven't been on here the entire day. That's my job. Ignore the French bitch with attitude problems.

MaxPower
04-13-2012, 01:02 PM
*long post*

Fair points I must say even and I do agree with most in principle.

Just to throw out a story from my experience: At my university that had like 20000-25000 students and around 5000 employees. It's safe to say there must have been 1000-2000 homosexuals at least, probably even more (saw some statistics that said 5-10%). I probably only encountered a few hundred students and in my years on a more personal basis and I can only recall one gay guy being severly trashtalked. I read 2 courses over the years with that guy in the same class (since I was in an entirely different program) but all I can say is that guy was so incredibly annoying that almost everyone disliked him.

He was a so called fem gay and I don't think people had much problem with that but he was a very special case. Often disrupted class with very odd questions, also showed up late almost every time. Appreantly didn't give a crap about group work or his grades either. Dressed very odd, equvialent with a female student coming in some stuff she would use at a bad fashion show. (Yes it's his business but he clearly did it to get reactions and he seemed to thrive on those reactions, even negative ones)

I can imagine that if you never had any other encounters with gay people and then ran into that guy you would get a very strong prejudice against homosexuals.

Just like you say most gays aren't even noticed. I mean just from statistics there must have been a huge amount among all the students you met in classes or at parties but I only knew about a handfull confirmed ones. Even if I encounter someone speaking with a bit of a femine voice or walks odd I can't know for sure that is a fem gay. The non-fem ones are almost impossible. Maybe you could make an assumptions but unless they outright tell you or you spot them with making out with a same-sex partner then you don't know for sure.

But yeah my main point is that I think that a lot of homophobia could be spawned by those very extreme cases and then you think every gay is like that. It's just like islamic extremists spawning islamophobia the same way.

I don't think there is a simple solution to that. The best is probably that all "normal gays" would also be completely open with being gay. I mean if everyone at the university knew about more gay people including having gay friends then they'd know they were just normal people and encounters with that very strange oddball wouldn't lead to much prejudice and outright homophobia.

I personally think bad experiences with "extreme cases" is a more common reason for homophobia among straight people than secret gay desires. Ofc there is likely 100 reasons but I think bad personal experiences, especially early in life (like in school) is a huge reason.

Gagsquet
04-15-2012, 03:33 PM
http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lyn4ujgnQN1r6psxao1_250.jpg

Filo V.
04-24-2012, 11:49 PM
Fair points I must say even and I do agree with most in principle.

Just to throw out a story from my experience: At my university that had like 20000-25000 students and around 5000 employees. It's safe to say there must have been 1000-2000 homosexuals at least, probably even more (saw some statistics that said 5-10%). I probably only encountered a few hundred students and in my years on a more personal basis and I can only recall one gay guy being severly trashtalked. I read 2 courses over the years with that guy in the same class (since I was in an entirely different program) but all I can say is that guy was so incredibly annoying that almost everyone disliked him.

He was a so called fem gay and I don't think people had much problem with that but he was a very special case. Often disrupted class with very odd questions, also showed up late almost every time. Appreantly didn't give a crap about group work or his grades either. Dressed very odd, equvialent with a female student coming in some stuff she would use at a bad fashion show. (Yes it's his business but he clearly did it to get reactions and he seemed to thrive on those reactions, even negative ones)

I can imagine that if you never had any other encounters with gay people and then ran into that guy you would get a very strong prejudice against homosexuals.I get what you're saying here. Of course, us gays have some obnoxious, annoying queens within our ranks that are simply unlikable characters, based on their personality. But that's what needs to be understood. This individual has a character flaw. Sexual orientation being gay or straight, some people are simply annoying, abrasive individuals. That has to be separated from judging that individual on their sexuality, which often, is not done.

I don't really buy the lack of awareness excuse. All studies have shown awareness to gay people leads to an increase in comfort and acceptance regarding the issue, which is understandable, you get to know someone/something better, you let your guard down and insecurities wane. But common sense should dictate that one realizes it's wrong to be discriminatory towards an entire group of people for who they are. I didn't need to be told this nor did I need exposure towards every single group in the world to know it's wrong to discriminate. If you're raised a certain way, I can understand that, being brainwashed. But in that case, it's up to individuals to be strong, think on their own, and start opening up and coming to grips with the world around them. I just have a very low tolerance for ignorance. It's not justifiable in any sense.

Just like you say most gays aren't even noticed. I mean just from statistics there must have been a huge amount among all the students you met in classes or at parties but I only knew about a handfull confirmed ones. Even if I encounter someone speaking with a bit of a femine voice or walks odd I can't know for sure that is a fem gay. The non-fem ones are almost impossible. Maybe you could make an assumptions but unless they outright tell you or you spot them with making out with a same-sex partner then you don't know for sure.That's a great point. That ultimately, outside of a small percentage on both sides of the fence, gay and straight men (and straight and lesbian women) do the same things, behave in the same ways, and really, there aren't any differences in lifestyle outside of sexual orientation. But if you know the signs, there are subtle differences. Subtle traits that make a guy ping. Like, what some people consider the most masculine gay man who has ever come out, Gareth Thomas, a former rugby player, I knew he was gay as soon as I saw him. If you hang around gay and straight men separately enough times, you can "feel" whether someone is gay or straight.

With all that said, those differences are slight. It's not as if gay people are aliens. And we're all different to some degree. Difference is what makes the world interesting. We should embrace each others' differences and encourage people to be individualistic.

I don't think there is a simple solution to that. The best is probably that all "normal gays" would also be completely open with being gay. I mean if everyone at the university knew about more gay people including having gay friends then they'd know they were just normal people and encounters with that very strange oddball wouldn't lead to much prejudice and outright homophobia.Well, that person you call a strange oddball, for others, may just be an eccentric person. Eccentric behavior isn't always bad. Being normal isn't all it's cracked up to be. And again, this is all about personality. What needs to be done is to separate sexuality from personality when it comes to judging a persons' character.

It was fem gays and drag queens that pretty much were on the forefront of the gay rights movement. And still are, because they are the ones who take most of the lumps, including from other gays, because they don't conform. THAT is the problem. Conformity is weakness. Individuality is what needs to be promoted.

I personally think bad experiences with "extreme cases" is a more common reason for homophobia among straight people than secret gay desires. Ofc there is likely 100 reasons but I think bad personal experiences, especially early in life (like in school) is a huge reason.Maybe for some, but overall, no. Because, we can ask ourselves questions such as, do men hate women because of personal experiences? Some do, sure. Many men make jokes about women. But most men aren't going out of their way to avoid and denigrate, attack all women, and their livelihoods. There is a MAJOR difference between dislike and hate. You can dislike someone/something based on bad experience. Pathological hatred, which is what homophobia is, signals deeper mental and emotional reasons than just bad experiences. Especially since, really, by the time you turn about 16, you should be exposed to most things and if you still hold these biased positions, then you're doing that by choice. That's stubbornness.

Mr. Oracle
04-27-2012, 12:50 AM
Filo V, at least you've stopped with the homoerotic avatar evangelism. That kind of aggressive in-your-face idiocy, along with gay pride "parades" are why the gay community experiences so much hostility. I would recommend the time tested and universal in-the-closet approach. Good luck with that!

Filo V.
04-27-2012, 01:02 AM
Filo V, at least you've stopped with the homoerotic avatar evangelism. That kind of aggressive in-your-face idiocy, along with gay pride "parades" are why the gay community experiences so much hostility. I would recommend the time tested and universal in-the-closet approach. Good luck with that!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_A9rFtzD9N_4/S0ru5znrgqI/AAAAAAAAAFk/8OfOHG2i2FQ/s320/fuck-you-tomato.jpg

Filo V.
04-27-2012, 01:04 AM
The time-tested in the closet approach will work the second straight people closet their heterosexuality.

I love it when homophobes blame gay people for why they're homophobic and then pretend to speak for all heterosexuals. I know, especially on this forum, there are more heterosexuals who recognize what I say is true, then agree with a homophobe.

Having hostility towards someone due to their sexual orientation is literally insanity. Homophobes should really ask themselves why they are so concerned with something so trivial, and ask themselves why they feel the need to continue to castigate gay folk as evil to justify their bigotry.

Mr. Oracle
04-27-2012, 03:05 AM
"The time-tested in the closet approach will work the second straight people closet their heterosexuality."

No, the natural order of nature and the universe precludes that from happening.

"I love it when homophobes blame gay people for why they're homophobic and then pretend to speak for all heterosexuals."

We make judgments all the time for what are acceptable societal norms, even you.

"I know, especially on this forum, there are more heterosexuals who recognize what I say is true, then agree with a homophobe."

Lets call them the silent majority then who are in your favour!

"Having hostility towards someone due to their sexual orientation is literally insanity."

Perhaps it is. I don't mind what you do behind closed doors with Bruce. It's the fact that you make me watch your wanton buggery in every public venue which causes me to despise you.

"Homophobes should really ask themselves why they are so concerned with something so trivial, and [U]ask themselves why they feel the need to continue to castigate gay folk as evil to justify their bigotry."

There is no need to castigate gay folk as long as they keep their gerbil inspired escapades behind closed doors.

"We all know how the sayings go when it comes to male musicians. You haven't really made it big time until you get a cock in your mouth."

Who talks like this except a wanton deviant?

I wish you well, and I wish you healing.