Was Djokovic just really unlucky at slams between 2008 and 2010? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Was Djokovic just really unlucky at slams between 2008 and 2010?

2003
02-11-2012, 03:49 AM
There were definately some strange lapses, Haas at Wimbledon 09 and the loss at FO 2010 come to mind. As well as 2008 Safin at Wimbledon, though grass is his worst surface and Safin had his last hurrah there. He never would have past Fed in the semi anyway.

But most slams, he was pretty close.

07 USO final. He just wasnt ready. He was good enough and should have won this match.

08 RG. Superman Nadal. But he absolutely ran him close in set 3, he played great. But this isnt his fault, this was clay GOAT at his peak. He got closer than Fed did.

08 USO. Fed beat him in a close match. Fed was great in this tourney, JesusFed came out in the final.

09 AO. The heat got him, he was winning that Roddick match otherwise.
Its his own fault but this can happen to anyone.

09 FO. This was the one real let down for me. He played like a doofus.

09 USO - Again, lost out to a very good Fed in 3 very close sets.

2010 AO - Got the shits in a bad way ;)

2010 SW19 - Got beat, but there was a bad call vs him in set 2 tiebreak that changed the whole direction of the match.

2010 USO - Dont really know what happened here. He was tired but shouldnt have been.

Alex999
02-11-2012, 04:03 AM
I don't think he was unlucky...he just lost his focus. stupid change of racket etc. I really think that he should have won more slams after the AO 2008 win but he went backwards in a way. what he is doing right now is amazing, but his performance at the AO back in 2008 was absolutely astonishing. I still think it's the best tournament he's ever played.

However, he was only 20yo. I guess he had to mature as a player which he certainly did...

one more thing, I don't believe in luck. You create your own luck.

Kat_YYZ
02-11-2012, 04:07 AM
if by unlucky you mean woefully full of gluten, then yes.

Yolita
02-11-2012, 04:19 AM
He was unlucky in the sense that he had to coexist with two of the best players ever to play the game. In order to win Grand Slams consistently, a great game is not enough. A player needs incredible mental strength and confidence. In 2007 Novak showed the world(and himself) that he had the right attitude and the game to be a champion. He reached the #3 spot, but Grand Slams proved elusive for him, they are at a different level. In 2008 he managed to play a fantastic Grand Slam in Australia, but he didn't have the maturity to keep that up day in day out. He was only 20, too young.

But kudos to him for not getting depressed: he kept his #3 ranking and kept dreaming, and kept working and improving...Until he was ready...

In the end the bad luck that he had to coexist with the greatest players, he turned into good luck: he used it to become the player he now is.

I'm hoping that he'll remain injury-free for a long time. Now is his time. :)

Alex999
02-11-2012, 04:31 AM
He was unlucky in the sense that he had to coexist with two of the best players ever to play the game. In order to win Grand Slams consistently, a great game is not enough. A player needs incredible mental strength and confidence. In 2007 Novak showed the world(and himself) that he had the right attitude and the game to be a champion. He reached the #3 spot, but Grand Slams proved elusive for him, they are at a different level. In 2008 he managed to play a fantastic Grand Slam in Australia, but he didn't have the maturity to keep that up day in day out. He was only 20, too young.

But kudos to him for not getting depressed: he kept his #3 ranking and kept dreaming, and kept working and improving...Until he was ready...

In the end the bad luck that he had to coexist with the greatest players, he turned into good luck: he used it to become the player he now is.

I'm hoping that he'll remain injury-free for a long time. Now is his time. :)
good post Yolita. I like Nole in a sense that he never gives up. He kept pushing himself and now he is winning almost everything. He kinda learned from his own mistakes...

nadalwon2012
02-11-2012, 04:51 AM
Also the 2010 and 2011 US Open where Federer had 4 matchpoints. And the 2012 Australian Open where Nadal led 4-2 and had an open winner for 40-15 to go toward 5-2. For sure, Djok's luck has changed.

Shinoj
02-11-2012, 04:59 AM
He just wasn't ready. He hadn't gotten everything together. Others were much experienced at winning those matches.

leng jai
02-11-2012, 05:11 AM
Nole losing on grass is never strange.

Ajde.

Hewitt =Legend
02-11-2012, 05:24 AM
He was unlucky he didn't dicover the concept of "gluten-free" earlier otherwise he would have won slams while he was still in his ajde diapers.

Ajde.

idolwatcher1
02-11-2012, 05:27 AM
Why is it always the top players that MTF has this kind of talk about? :p What about the people who have to face Djokovic in slams and they might've been able to get a round further if it weren't for him or some other slam champion being in the way :lol: I don't know what it is, but it seems like fans of the top players are rarely satisfied, no matter what the accomplishments their favorites have achieved. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like everytime a major draw comes out, they seem to complain the loudest when anybody who is "good" might face their precious favorite. If he is worthy of the title, then he will win it by earning it. :) Otherwise, someone else had a better tournament.

Hewitt =Legend
02-11-2012, 05:32 AM
I won't be satisfied until Nole goes on a 5 year unbeaten streak.

Ajde Nole.

leng jai
02-11-2012, 05:36 AM
I hope Wimbledon grass starts emitting gluten fumes soon otherwise Nole will be the grass GOAT by the end of his career.

Ajde

adam10
02-11-2012, 05:38 AM
only 09 USO. He should've won that one.

2003
02-11-2012, 06:23 AM
only 09 USO. He should've won that one.

How so?

07 USO a better candidate.

BroTree123
02-11-2012, 06:44 AM
Noletards and their ignorance :rolleyes:.

iriraz
02-11-2012, 07:09 AM
In those years he had only 1 or 2 poor matches(vs Kohlschreiber at the FO 2009) or a match he should have easily won but slipped away(vs Melzer FO 2010) but the rest he either was feeling sick or the heat got to him and for the other matches he competed well but lost plenty of tight sets especially vs Federer which showed that he wasn`t ready to win those big matches yet.

GSMnadal
02-11-2012, 07:42 AM
if by unlucky you mean, terribly outclassed, then yes...he was just really unlucky

Jaz
02-11-2012, 07:59 AM
He just wasnt good enough.

End of, no one in 20 years will think "oh he was unlucky"

nadalwon2012
02-11-2012, 08:07 AM
In 20 years people will say:

Djok owned Nadal for a year, but Nadal at age 26 lifted his game higher (than the calendar year 2010 when he become the only man in world history to win 3 slams on 3 different surfaces) to the point where he won The Rafa Slam in 2013 Australia.

pray-for-palestine-and-israel
02-11-2012, 08:17 AM
strange how he suddenly became so physically strong

just like nadal

man- i cant even mask my contempt for some of these "athletes"

you ask why i love federer and not the other guys

fed is the only guy, for sure- that is clean

its not fair because there are guys in the top 200 who have the talent to be in the top 10 but because they dont juice they just cant compete- thats the truth and we all know it

2003
02-11-2012, 09:37 AM
you ask why i love federer and not the other guys

fed is the only guy, for sure- that is clean

How do you know that?

He would be a prime candidate actually.

The thing doping does is help you recover faster so you can do more workouts.

Peak Fed had the best endurance we have ever seen.

ossie
02-11-2012, 09:47 AM
is it so hard to understand he is just a better player now, the difference in his forehand is remarkable for instance.

MaxPower
02-11-2012, 10:00 AM
He didn't have his egg. The egg isn't luck. The egg is all skill

ajde!

mark73
02-11-2012, 11:16 AM
I don't think he was unlucky...he just lost his focus. stupid change of racket etc. I really think that he should have won more slams after the AO 2008 win but he went backwards in a way. what he is doing right now is amazing, but his performance at the AO back in 2008 was absolutely astonishing. I still think it's the best tournament he's ever played.

However, he was only 20yo. I guess he had to mature as a player which he certainly did...

one more thing, I don't believe in luck. You create your own luck.

You don't believe in luck? OK... :rolleyes:

nadalwon2012
02-11-2012, 11:17 AM
strange how he suddenly became so physically strong

just like nadal

man- i cant even mask my contempt for some of these "athletes"

you ask why i love federer and not the other guys

fed is the only guy, for sure- that is clean

its not fair because there are guys in the top 200 who have the talent to be in the top 10 but because they dont juice they just cant compete- thats the truth and we all know it

You don't think there is something supicious about a guy who never looks tired, and plays his best tennis at the end of the year, at age 30, no less, while Rafa and Djok collapse? Federer is the most suspicious case. While Nadal is continually exhausted and complains about the schedule more than anyone.

pray-for-palestine-and-israel
02-11-2012, 11:29 AM
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTvN6vC38RWMOc8zrqjNNrhfBl6XVXBe 9caOTlqRftkvuhmTJov7ZMnMdYF

pretty sure he's clean- his style of play is hardly taxing at all- its no wonder he stays relatively healthy and hardly injured

i'm sure i read an article somewhere that HGH use has a correlation with injuries

mark73
02-11-2012, 11:37 AM
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTvN6vC38RWMOc8zrqjNNrhfBl6XVXBe 9caOTlqRftkvuhmTJov7ZMnMdYF

pretty sure he's clean- his style of play is hardly taxing at all- its no wonder he stays relatively healthy and hardly injured

i'm sure i read an article somewhere that HGH use has a correlation with injuries
I agree. Also fed unlike nadal (Nole?) is for random drug testing. That is they can be tested at anytime anywhere with no warning.

nadalwon2012
02-11-2012, 11:45 AM
I agree. Also fed unlike nadal (Nole?) is for random drug testing. That is they can be tested at anytime anywhere with no warning.

Does Federer even get drug tested? Nadal was tested at 6am the morning after celebrating his 2011 Roland Garros victory. And he's already been test 3 times this year, he said yesterday in fact (in reply to the controversy over the loser Frenchmen journalist making cartoons about Nadal filling his car with urine).

Alex999
02-11-2012, 11:49 AM
this is all mambo jambo talk. they get tested all the time. ok, sure there is a possibility that they could be using something new... I just don't buy it. Novak was a great player back in 2006 when he made it to # 16 I think. He then become #3 in 2007. As his fan I know how freaked out he is about his health.

Novak, Rog and Rafa are simply better players than the rest. Period.

arm
02-11-2012, 11:51 AM
He was VERY unlucky in USO 2007. And that loss in AO to Tsonga. That's pretty much it.

He was beaten fair and square in the other losses.

nadalwon2012
02-11-2012, 11:53 AM
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTvN6vC38RWMOc8zrqjNNrhfBl6XVXBe 9caOTlqRftkvuhmTJov7ZMnMdYF

pretty sure he's clean- his style of play is hardly taxing at all- its no wonder he stays relatively healthy and hardly injured

i'm sure i read an article somewhere that HGH use has a correlation with injuries

Neither Federer nor Nadal are in superhuman shape, as you an see by this picture of Australian Open 2011 Nadal-
http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/18900000/Rafael-Nadal-getting-fat-from-the-grief-rafael-nadal-18941618-1024-1241.jpg
Nadal was only muscular in 2008. After that he lost most of his muscle definition, and subsequently became the first man in world history to win 3 slams on 3 different surfaces, in 2010. If you are looking for a superhuman physique-
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02123/nd3_2123652b.jpg
I hope Djok is clean. Even if Djok is found guilty, the slam titles won't be transferred to Nadal, unlike at the Olympics where the runner-up receives gold when cheating is found.

Sunset of Age
02-11-2012, 11:59 AM
Why is it always the top players that MTF has this kind of talk about? :p What about the people who have to face Djokovic in slams and they might've been able to get a round further if it weren't for him or some other slam champion being in the way :lol: I don't know what it is, but it seems like fans of the top players are rarely satisfied, no matter what the accomplishments their favorites have achieved. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like everytime a major draw comes out, they seem to complain the loudest when anybody who is "good" might face their precious favorite. If he is worthy of the title, then he will win it by earning it. :) Otherwise, someone else had a better tournament.

Word, man. :yeah:
It's bloody strange to see those endless expectations. Also, many seem to think that GS-titles - or just whatever titles - grown on trees and they're just there to pick for the top guys, never mind the fact that all the other guys can play a pretty good ball at times as well. Tough losses against other players are being called 'flukes', hence the amount of 'respect' that guys like Söderling, Tsonga, and now Isner (just to name a few of them), get on this board - oh noes, the Top Dog "got unlucky!" He "didn't care"! etc. :o

It's in fact very difficult to win a big title, and winning even 'just' ONE GS-title is a massive achievement. Be happy for all that your favs have managed to achieve, in stead of lamenting about ifs-buts-shoulda-woulda-coulda's. ;)

pray-for-palestine-and-israel
02-11-2012, 12:13 PM
"Players can use short-acting steroids in combination with human growth hormone which will produce muscle mass and enormous power, and while they can stop just before a competition and test clean, they still get the performance benefit of the drugs"
Former chief executive of the Australian Sports Drug Agency, John Mendoza

"The ATP also suffers from a dilemma. Imagine if Federer or Nadal were caught doping. I probably would not suspend them, because they are too important. But where is the line?"
- Former Pro Andrei Medvedev


John McEnroe: "You can tell when somone has been on steroids… A guy bulks up, has a new body and never gets tired...You see these guys or girls who come onto the tour talking about their new training programs and their diets where they eat this or that new thing…but they’ll never tell you about the drugs they took."

Jim Courier: "I'm much more inclined to have a concern for something that we cannot test for under the current system of testing, which is blood doping..."

Jim Courier: "EPO is the problem, I have pretty strong suspicions that guys are using it on the tour. I see guys who are out there week in and week out without taking rests. EPO can help you when it's the fifth set and you've been playing for four-and-a-half hours."

Andre Agassi (1999): "I have absolutely no knowledge of anyone blood-doping whatsoever."

Andre Agassi (in 2009, admitting that he failed a drug test in 1997 and successfully lied to the ATP to get them to drop the case): "Then I come to the central lie of the letter...I say that recently I drank accidentally from one of Slim's spiked sodas, unwittingly ingesting his drugs. I ask for understanding and leniency and hastily sign it: Sincerely."

nadalwon2012
02-11-2012, 12:23 PM
^ Although Agassi's drug-taking was recreational drug-use, Crystal Meth, which only helped him get to number 141 in the world. The ATP knew it wasn't performance-enhancing obviously, so they were bound to be lenient. The only reason why self-destroying drugs like Crystal Meth are on the banned list is because athletes taking them are setting a bad example as role-models for children. By ignoring Agassi's drug use, the ATP is preventing children from seeing this, and therefore achieving a greater result than banning him (which would reveal his drug use to his legion of young fans, setting a bad example for them). Kids were copying everything Agassi did back then, the haircuts, the pirate gear, everything. Whereas if a tennis player was using steroids or a masking agent, then the ATP would have true reason to ban them and send a message to other tennis players, serving a real purpose.

Ouragan
02-11-2012, 12:28 PM
Even that AO 2008 was tainted, Fed had mono when he lost. I just think he's come of age. And gluten.

BigJohn
02-11-2012, 12:37 PM
Not unlucky. He just did not really care.

Like this year, he did not really lose 6 times, when he lost, he just did not care. So the losses don't count.

Nole is pretty much undefeated when he cares about the match.


Ajde.

ballbasher101
02-11-2012, 01:00 PM
Djokovic lost his way during that time. He doubted himself and as a sportsman doubt is your biggest opponent. Simple as that.

Hewitt =Legend
02-11-2012, 01:37 PM
Mods, can we please ban whoever posted the shirtless picture of Federer.

Shirtless pics of NoleGoat may stay however.

Ajde.

BigJohn
02-11-2012, 02:15 PM
Djokovic lost his way during that time. He doubted himself and as a sportsman doubt is your biggest opponent. Simple as that.

Quality poster says no:

Nole didn't collapse. To be honest with you, Novak just didn't give a shit after he won the USO.

asmazif
02-11-2012, 02:30 PM
nah he got quite lucky with a bunch of the draws tbh - he just fucked up his chances in the later stages/was beaten.

Alex999
02-11-2012, 02:31 PM
Word, man. :yeah:
It's bloody strange to see those endless expectations. Also, many seem to think that GS-titles - or just whatever titles - grown on trees and they're just there to pick for the top guys, never mind the fact that all the other guys can play a pretty good ball at times as well. Tough losses against other players are being called 'flukes', hence the amount of 'respect' that guys like Söderling, Tsonga, and now Isner (just to name a few of them), get on this board - oh noes, the Top Dog "got unlucky!" He "didn't care"! etc. :o

It's in fact very difficult to win a big title, and winning even 'just' ONE GS-title is a massive achievement. Be happy for all that your favs have managed to achieve, in stead of lamenting about ifs-buts-shoulda-woulda-coulda's. ;)
good post. couldn't agree more. I think it's all human nature. We can't get enough. We need more. Many guys here do not realize how hard Novak, Roger and Nadal had to work to get where they are right now. And what's up with all this PED garbage?

rocketassist
02-11-2012, 02:37 PM
No, he sucked. Kohlschreiber, Melzer the standout GS exits.

Alex999
02-11-2012, 03:02 PM
No, he sucked. Kohlschreiber, Melzer the standout GS exits.
well, I don't think he really sucked. sure some bad loses, but tennis is an individual sport. it's very hard to play your best all the time. How many silly loses have even prime Roger or Nadal had? too many, I can give you a list...

what is really important is that the top guys can raise their game when it's really important. that's why they are multiple GS winners.

betowiec
02-11-2012, 03:05 PM
back then, nole was not good enough

BIGMARAT
02-11-2012, 03:07 PM
When he won his first slam, his team and Him became over confident and is too much of themselves.
Until he realizes being number one is not just being a star rather a hard work.
In short, its just maturity. He had all the tools to win everything as early as 2008 to beat anyone.

gulzhan
02-11-2012, 03:41 PM
He wasn't unlucky. He published "the book" and had to wait for three years until the curse would be pardoned. He's learnt his lesson though.

EddieNero
02-11-2012, 03:45 PM
He should blame pizza men for his slam drought.

romismak
02-11-2012, 06:12 PM
No he wasn´t unlucky, 2008 he was alreyd good enough to win more slams, but in 2008 Nadal was at his physical peak- so it was impossible to take from him RG, and great Rafa and great Roger when are around it is also impossible to take from them Wimby- and Nole was still worse grass-court player back than, USO - he could have won was good enough but the same like 07 USo Roger was too hungry and experience player there. So overall about his 2008 - he could have won only USO besides AO but Roger was just too good, he was without chances at RG or Wimby at that time for sure

2009-his record at slams was horrible, he withdrew from match as defending champion in AO... i don´t know what chances he would have but Roger and Rafa both played great so most likely i would say he wouldn´t win this AO even in healthy-heat makes no problem
RG-that is big shame, worst slam from him what i can remember, he was pushing Rafa at all clay MAsters before RG and i was hoping that at least SF is sure thing, with Rafa gonne, it is what if, but this could have been maybe his slam that year, but i read that he was mentally down after those close losses to Rafa on clay
Wimby-he lost to Haas... no way on grass he would have beaten Roger or Roddick the way he was serving
USO- again beaten by Roger, funny all 5 USO they have played since 07 have been close and really each one of them could have been won by the other player, but Roger was still too good

2010- worst year, serving like WTA, no confidence, couch issues with having 2 of them... only good slam from him was USO and also there he could have been out in R1 against Viktor, but besides USO he really had no chances at other slams, AO-Roger was in GOAT mode since turning that match with Davydenko , RG - even in he go past Melzer in SF was waiting Rafa, with the way he was serving that time and has no confidence Rafa in straight sets is only possible choice here and Wimby.... Berdych was too good, even if he go past him Rafa in final too much for Nole at that time, simply his serve and confidence were in 2010 so much lower than 2011.

LawrenceOfTennis
02-11-2012, 06:17 PM
This thread :lol:
Looking for excuses all the time.

Sound2k10
02-11-2012, 06:21 PM
Djokovic was utter shite after he won AO 2008 until mid-2010.

River
02-11-2012, 06:35 PM
No.

Bad focus, and at times, he just plain sucked. There's only so much you can say about blaming a new racket change before you look at yourself in the mirror and ask "What am I doing wrong?"

He pretty much corrected what needed to be fixed, and he achieved the success he has now. A lot of people overlook that in favor of thinking he either took shortcuts, Fedal is injured of some sort, this is a mug era, or tennis died (insert dumb timeline here).

Aloimeh
02-11-2012, 08:57 PM
Djokovic wouldn't have been playing nearly as well were it not for that ~2.5 year gap. Two major reasons:

1.) His messed up serve forced him to become the best returner of this generation, just so he could keep the matches competitive. That amazing return has remained to the present. And not just the return, but arguably the movement as well. A superb serve very early in your career is a crutch that doesn't encourage you to develop the other aspects of your game quite as much.

2.) His humiliating losses due to fatigue, poor conditioning, or poor dealing with circumstances forced him to work in a focused way on his stamina. That has proved invaluable for the many long matches he's won over the past year - and especially for clay.

Had Djokovic not had his bad patch and had instead remained on the same track he was on in AO 2008, he may have won 2 more hardcourt slams (say one more AO and one more USO), but he never would become as dominant as he is now, and it's doubtful as to whether he would win Wimbledon or become a prime contender for the FO.

ssin
02-11-2012, 10:37 PM
He was unlucky in a few of them, but got lucky in a few of them recently. There is the thing called luck and it's needed, but it swings - and overall, luck is really irrelevant, most of the times it's just a word used by pitiful haters/tards, regardless of the player in question. If you want to rely on luck go play a poker machine - and good luck with that.

As for Novak I remember the bad times, and how he was openly ridiculed and played down, well, it seems many people are now struggling to come to terms with reality, and it must not be easy. Ajde indeed. And as someone said, the only way now is down, but he realized his dream and reached the peak, even if he retired tomorrow it's a fact. Time for me to find another underdog, black sheep, the third man to cheer for.

Marc23
02-11-2012, 10:41 PM
Djokovic wasn't unlucky,others were simply better...at tournaments like this you make your own luck!

Gagsquet
02-11-2012, 10:52 PM
He wasn't on diet back in time. Otherwise, he would have 11 slams more.

Vida
02-11-2012, 11:13 PM
luck is relative as hell. he is lucky to be alive.

figuring out gluten allergy couldve came earlier though.

romismak
02-11-2012, 11:28 PM
Djokovic wouldn't have been playing nearly as well were it not for that ~2.5 year gap. Two major reasons:

1.) His messed up serve forced him to become the best returner of this generation, just so he could keep the matches competitive. That amazing return has remained to the present. And not just the return, but arguably the movement as well. A superb serve very early in your career is a crutch that doesn't encourage you to develop the other aspects of your game quite as much.

2.) His humiliating losses due to fatigue, poor conditioning, or poor dealing with circumstances forced him to work in a focused way on his stamina. That has proved invaluable for the many long matches he's won over the past year - and especially for clay.

Had Djokovic not had his bad patch and had instead remained on the same track he was on in AO 2008, he may have won 2 more hardcourt slams (say one more AO and one more USO), but he never would become as dominant as he is now, and it's doubtful as to whether he would win Wimbledon or become a prime contender for the FO.

Good points, agree that most big servers have bad return, because simply they never try so hard to develop it when you have great serve, but Nole had good serve and return before, simply his serve is not so lethal but good enough with his groundgame.

2nd point is right point, Those health issues that Nole had, make him think that something is wrong and he found out about that gluten allergy and also i believe he is now working on his fitness-stamina much harder than when he was younger for sure.

Yolita
02-12-2012, 03:58 AM
Djokovic was utter shite after he won AO 2008 until mid-2010.
He wasn't. He was a very talented 20-year-old who had a great game but a lot of growing up to do. He also had allergies and breathing issues. He got all those things sorted out, without losing his #3 ranking, that is, still being the best of the rest, for four straight years. Now he's a mental giant. Watch out. :devil:

Hewitt =Legend
02-12-2012, 04:01 AM
It is a testament to the spartan qualites that reside deep within Nole that he emerged victorious in Australia despite the organisers blatant attempts to sabotage him through strategic flower placement.

Ajde.

Mountaindewslave
02-12-2012, 04:26 AM
no I don't see him as unlucky at all, he just didn't play his best game at moments and was very weak mentally at the time. look at his mannerisms and behavior on the court now versus back in those years and you see why he preforms so much better now than then. nothing to do with luck but with how he handled himself on the court, he defeated himself by getting frusturated in those years. he has matured and it has everything to do with maturity, nothing to do with luck

MIMIC
02-12-2012, 04:31 AM
Unlucky? No. His game just wasn't as complete at the time.....and he was lacking the killer instinct that he has now. Like he said, the passion was there, but the belief was still MIA.

mooncreek
02-12-2012, 01:05 PM
There are players I'd call unlucky in Slams. Djokovic is not one of them. I remember a few of those draws being cakewalks before losing those matches in question. The Federer matches are the ones that could have changed everything and maybe wasn't ready - but he did beat Federer in 2008 AO en route to the title.

To have health issues due to conditioning isn't bad luck - I'll give you the virus against Tsonga as bad luck, not so much on the others.

Vida
02-12-2012, 01:54 PM
There are players I'd call unlucky in Slams. Djokovic is not one of them. I remember a few of those draws being cakewalks before losing those matches in question. The Federer matches are the ones that could have changed everything and maybe wasn't ready - but he did beat Federer in 2008 AO en route to the title.

To have health issues due to conditioning isn't bad luck - I'll give you the virus against Tsonga as bad luck, not so much on the others.

celiac disease is bad luck.

bouncer7
02-12-2012, 02:19 PM
At least he won two slam as no.3. Fed won't win anything as no.3 cause he is mental disaster who won't ever win back to back Rafa and Nole. So obvious for every fed fan.

Nole fan
02-12-2012, 02:43 PM
He just wasnt good enough.

End of, no one in 20 years will think "oh he was unlucky"

That's where you're wrong. He was good enough by then to win multi slams, he just didn't have it in the head. For me Nole's career has been affected by his rivals -playing in an era with two all time greats- and that he took more time to mature. But for all of us who have been following since 2007 he's the same player, he had the game alreado to beat anyone and win slams, and he proved it winning AO 2008 and beating Federer, and also should have won that USO 07 final against Federer if he hadn't chocked so terribly. So, yes, Nole was unlucky in my opinion, but it doesn't matter really, it was what he needed to evolve into the player he is today. But gamewise Nole 2007 is the same as Nole 2011-12.

GSMnadal
02-12-2012, 02:47 PM
That's where you're wrong. He was good enough by then to win multi slams, he just didn't have it in the head. For me Nole's career has been affected by his rivals -playing in an era with two all time greats- and that he took more time to mature. But for all of us who have been following since 2007 he's the same player, he had the game alreado to beat anyone and win slams, and he proved it winning AO 2008 and beating Federer, and also should have won that USO 07 final against Federer if he hadn't chocked so terribly. So, yes, Nole was unlucky in my opinion, but it doesn't matter really, it was what he needed to evolve into the player he is today. But gamewise Nole 2007 is the same as Nole 2011-12.

Then the thread title should be that he's lucky to win slams now just because Fedal have declined. He got straight setted most of the time in slams around then, that's not just mental.

His forehand is doing so much more damage right now than it did back then.

bouncer7
02-12-2012, 02:48 PM
That's where you're wrong. He was good enough by then to win multi slams, he just didn't have it in the head. For me Nole's career has been affected by his rivals -playing in an era with two all time greats- and that he took more time to mature. But for all of us who have been following since 2007 he's the same player, he had the game alreado to beat anyone and win slams, and he proved it winning AO 2008 and beating Federer, and also should have won that USO 07 final against Federer if he hadn't chocked so terribly. So, yes, Nole was unlucky in my opinion, but it doesn't matter really, it was what he needed to evolve into the player he is today. But gamewise Nole 2007 is the same as Nole 2011-12.

Nole had in every semi and final Roger and Rafa but he at least two time won. Look at Roger now, he is going to play MM events tryin to surpass Rafa ranking cause he knows no slams more for him as number 3.

Nole fan
02-12-2012, 02:50 PM
Then the thread title should be that he's lucky to win slams now just because Fedal have declined. He got straight setted most of the time in slams around then, that's not just mental.

His forehand is doing so much more damage right now than it did back then.

Can't you read? i said the only difference was mentality which is about 40% in tennis or more. I think his forehand was devastating in 2007-08, he just pulled the trigger too soon, he took more risks and made more errors. Now he's more consistent. Also he had a better serve in 2007 by strides.

GSMnadal
02-12-2012, 03:04 PM
Can't you read? i said the only difference was mentality which is about 40% in tennis or more. I think his forehand was devastating in 2007-08, he just pulled the trigger too soon, he took more risks and made more errors. Now he's more consistent. Also he had a better serve in 2007 by strides.

Being more consistent =/= mental, that's just being a better player. His serve right now is underrated, it's still a great shot. I haven't watched him in 07 enough to judge how good it was back then.

Also, his fitness is infinitely times better right now, is that mental too?

Really, he's a much better player now, and that is where he gets the confidence from. His game has improved and he knows he can rely on his shots, and that's why his mentality is better now, not the other way around.

Nole Rules
02-12-2012, 03:16 PM
Being more consistent =/= mental, that's just being a better player. His serve right now is underrated, it's still a great shot. I haven't watched him in 07 enough to judge how good it was back then.

Also, his fitness is infinitely times better right now, is that mental too?

Really, he's a much better player now, and that is where he gets the confidence from. His game has improved and he knows he can rely on his shots, and that's why his mentality is better now, not the other way around.

Totally agree with this. Seriously, Nole is much better player now. Every aspect of his game has imporved bar the serve (which was better in 2007/2008). His forehand is really underrated. He worked so much on that shot. It's one of the best 5 forehands on the tour at the moment IMHO. His great backhand overshadowed his FH. Maybe that's why his FH is a little bit underrated.

Ash86
02-12-2012, 03:31 PM
Then the thread title should be that he's lucky to win slams now just because Fedal have declined. He got straight setted most of the time in slams around then, that's not just mental.

His forehand is doing so much more damage right now than it did back then.

I think it's a bit of both - his game improved a bit - mainly his serve got back to normal after the awful 2010 & then his confidence just soared after Davis Cup 2010 and Aus Open 2011. Beating Nadal in those finals also helped his confidence - if he'd lost Indian Wells or Miami I don't think we'd have seen quite the dominance from him - as Nadal might have had a different attitude in the clay finals for example. It's clear that for players like Nadal & Djokovic their mental state and confidence affects them a lot - they've said as much in interviews...

But it's also a bit to do with Fedal declining - Novak had no chance at RG & Wimbledon in 2008 - Fedal (or mainly Rafa at RG) too good, in 2009 he had chances & should have capitalised on Nadal losing early in RG but didn't & in 2010 his serve was terrible - that's not bad luck. If he was facing 2006/2007 Federer or 2008 Nadal would he have been as dominant as he was last year? No. Doesn't mean he's not playing fantastic - after all 2008 Nadal didn't face this Novak; but to say his lack of GS wins was to do with luck is silly - he had good draws, was no. 3 in the world yet failed to win a slam or even reach a final for nearly years. For a player of his calibre to take another 11 slams to get to a final after winning the Aus Open 2008 was a waste of talent and no one's fault but his own.

The only thing you could say he was unlucky about was to keep falling into Roger's half at the US Open - if he'd been in Nadal's half he'd have got to the final again before 2010....

Nole Rules
02-12-2012, 03:45 PM
I think it's a bit of both - his game improved a bit - mainly his serve got back to normal after the awful 2010 & then his confidence just soared after Davis Cup 2010 and Aus Open 2011. Beating Nadal in those finals also helped his confidence - if he'd lost Indian Wells or Miami I don't think we'd have seen quite the dominance from him - as Nadal might have had a different attitude in the clay finals for example. It's clear that for players like Nadal & Djokovic their mental state and confidence affects them a lot - they've said as much in interviews...

But it's also a bit to do with Fedal declining - Novak had no chance at RG & Wimbledon in 2008 - Fedal (or mainly Rafa at RG) too good, in 2009 he had chances & should have capitalised on Nadal losing early in RG but didn't & in 2010 his serve was terrible - that's not bad luck. If he was facing 2006/2007 Federer or 2008 Nadal would he have been as dominant as he was last year? No. Doesn't mean he's not playing fantastic - after all 2008 Nadal didn't face this Novak; but to say his lack of GS wins was to do with luck is silly - he had good draws, was no. 3 in the world yet failed to win a slam or even reach a final for nearly years. For a player of his calibre to take another 11 slams to get to a final after winning the Aus Open 2008 was a waste of talent and no one's fault but his own.

The only thing you could say he was unlucky about was to keep falling into Roger's half at the US Open - if he'd been in Nadal's half he'd have got to the final again before 2010....

Even if 2008 Nadal was playing against Nole V.2 in 2011. Nole V.2 would still has the edge in this match up. That's because it's a match up issue for Rafa. After all there is a reason why Rafa hasn't beat this verison of Nole so far. :shrug:

Nole did beat 2008 Nadal more than once i guess. Rafa is yet to get a win against Nole V.2.

munZe konZa
02-12-2012, 04:02 PM
I think it's a bit of both - his game improved a bit - mainly his serve got back to normal after the awful 2010 & then his confidence just soared after Davis Cup 2010 and Aus Open 2011. Beating Nadal in those finals also helped his confidence - if he'd lost Indian Wells or Miami I don't think we'd have seen quite the dominance from him - as Nadal might have had a different attitude in the clay finals for example. It's clear that for players like Nadal & Djokovic their mental state and confidence affects them a lot - they've said as much in interviews...

But it's also a bit to do with Fedal declining - Novak had no chance at RG & Wimbledon in 2008 - Fedal (or mainly Rafa at RG) too good, in 2009 he had chances & should have capitalised on Nadal losing early in RG but didn't & in 2010 his serve was terrible - that's not bad luck. If he was facing 2006/2007 Federer or 2008 Nadal would he have been as dominant as he was last year? No. Doesn't mean he's not playing fantastic - after all 2008 Nadal didn't face this Novak; but to say his lack of GS wins was to do with luck is silly - he had good draws, was no. 3 in the world yet failed to win a slam or even reach a final for nearly years. For a player of his calibre to take another 11 slams to get to a final after winning the Aus Open 2008 was a waste of talent and no one's fault but his own.

The only thing you could say he was unlucky about was to keep falling into Roger's half at the US Open - if he'd been in Nadal's half he'd have got to the final again before 2010....


Anyone that has followed Nole going back to beginnings knows that he didn't improve, he always had the same capabilities but just matured and stopped being bothered by outside influences. His forehand/backhand and everything else is the same now as it was 5 years ago. There were lots of things happening outside the court that influenced his decline from 2008-2010 and finally he stopped being bothered by it and concentrated on playing .

He was losing to so many different players and even winning some difficult games because he was not in it mentally. He wasn't losing to Federer/Nadal but to Roddick, Tsonga, Kohlschreiber, old Haas, Safin and many others. It's a wonder and a testament to his talent that he stayed relevant during that time.

Now I don't know how that lull is going to influence him in his future. Obviously those times were lean times and he remembers them and stays hungry or he could be hit by short term success and never win again.

Mystique
02-12-2012, 04:07 PM
Nope. He under performed in 2009 and 2010, playing well only in patches and MM tourneys and went AWOL in Slams. No luck factor here.

Ash86
02-12-2012, 04:08 PM
Even if 2008 Nadal was playing against Nole V.2 in 2011. Nole V.2 would still has the edge in this match up. That's because it's a match up issue for Rafa. After all there is a reason why Rafa hasn't beat this verison of Nole so far. :shrug:

Nole did beat 2008 Nadal more than once i guess. Rafa is yet to get a win against Nole V.2.

Nadal 2011 lost in a final set tiebreak in Miami & could have been 5-2 up in the final set a few weeks ago. Sure it's a match up issue but that doesn't mean Nadal would never win against Novak. At RG, since we're only talking about slams, even Novak 2011 would not win 3 sets at RG against Nadal 2008 - he was a different player confidence wise and was unplayable pretty much at that tournament. At Wimbledon given that Novak 2.0 lost sets to Baghdatis & Tomic I think it's safe to say Nadal, the better grasscourt player, who was on a hot streak all summer, would still have had the edge.

On hardcourts the results would have stayed the same - victories for Djokovic. Nadal will get a win against this Novak at some point - just because Nadal 2011 didn't beat him doesn't mean Nadal 2008 would have had the same issues... The compounded mental impact of all those losses last year cannot be discounted either. As bad as the match up is Nadal can still keep it competitive and it's not a walk in the park for Novak...

stewietennis
02-12-2012, 08:53 PM
No one is unlucky for three years straight, and only specifically at majors – if you don't win any, you're just not good enough. If anything, Djokovic was lucky to win AO2008 because Federer was afflicted with an illness. Novak wasn't lucky in his last four major wins though – luck played no part in that.

Houstonko
02-13-2012, 06:29 AM
09 AO. The heat got him, he was winning that Roddick match otherwise.
Its his own fault but this can happen to anyone.


He was winning? I don't think so, Roddick owned him. Djoker retired when he was down 2-1 sets and break.

Alex999
02-13-2012, 09:48 AM
No one is unlucky for three years straight, and only specifically at majors – if you don't win any, you're just not good enough. If anything, Djokovic was lucky to win AO2008 because Federer was afflicted with an illness. Novak wasn't lucky in his last four major wins though – luck played no part in that.
I can NOT stress enough all that bs about Rog's mono. How was he able to reach semis if he was really sick. BS. Novak played a brilliant match in 2008. Rog's ego is simply too big. He had to find something to justify his loss.

Thunderfish8
02-13-2012, 10:52 AM
Losing to Melzer at Roland Garros is not luck... it's just an awful performance

bokehlicious
02-13-2012, 12:11 PM
He just didn't have the "egg" back then :shrug:

Vida
02-13-2012, 01:52 PM
Losing to Melzer at Roland Garros is not luck... it's just an awful performance

he had a nasty allergy whole summer, probably connected to immunity screw-up/celiac disease shit. was totally out of form.

Myrre
02-13-2012, 02:46 PM
he had a nasty allergy whole summer, probably connected to immunity screw-up/celiac disease shit. was totally out of form.

A one season allergy? That's pretty rare.

Vida
02-13-2012, 03:20 PM
A one season allergy? That's pretty rare.

I understood celiac disease is indeed rare (though many people have some sort of discomfort with gluten food).

xargon
02-13-2012, 06:42 PM
No one is unlucky for three years straight, and only specifically at majors – if you don't win any, you're just not good enough.

That's exactly how I feel about Murray.

Lopez
02-13-2012, 07:26 PM
Novak's serve was indeed better in 2007-2008. Look at the videos from back then, his motion was a bit different with more body torque IMO and better force. His kick serve used to be a monster, nowadays he rarely hits it. He was a tad more aggressive, though I don't think by much. His slice and net game have improved but the biggest thing is the mentality in tough situations and fitness, which also allows him to play better defense.

On the Fedal decline, Federer has clearly declined from his peak form but not as much as some seem to suggest. Nadal IMO is not in decline, at the AO he was at peak level especially in the fourth set and won it in a tiebreak against a subpar Nole. It's just a matchup issue, same like peak Fed losing to Nadal.

MM_1257
02-13-2012, 07:28 PM
I understood celiac disease is indeed rare (though many people have some sort of discomfort with gluten food).

Novak doesn't have celiac disease, if anything he has gluten sensitivity... But if you read how dr. Cetojevic "diagnosed" the disease you may go --> :rolleyes: