Skiing "more complicated" than tennis, Novak is proof of this, says bitter ski dad [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Skiing "more complicated" than tennis, Novak is proof of this, says bitter ski dad

Pirata.
02-07-2012, 08:57 PM
Skiing is far more complicated than tennis and Novak Djokovic is living proof of that - according to Ante Kostelic, father of the Croatian alpine ski superstars Janica and Ivica.

'Anybody can play tennis,' Kostelic was quoted as saying on Tuesday, a day after the Serbian won the prestigious Laureus World Sportsman of the Year award.

'For example, you have all these good tennis players from Venezuela, Peru, Chile and Spain - the skiing circle is much smaller.'

Serbian media reported the quotes from Kostelic's interview with the Croatian TV Nova.

Kostelic pointed out that Djokovic was born on Kopaonik, Serbia's leading ski centre and 'tried skiing, but skiing isn't tennis,' reports said.

Djokovic has won four of the last five Grand Slam tournaments and is firmly sitting on top of the ATP ranking.
Janica, now retired, and Ivica Kostelic are World Cup and Olympic ski champions.

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/europe/news/article_1689673.php/Father-Kostelic-Anybody-can-play-tennis-look-at-Novak

:awww:

leng jai
02-07-2012, 08:58 PM
Hard to argue after the AO final.

Ajde

Lopez
02-07-2012, 09:01 PM
Maybe it has more to do with the fact that there are a limited number of skiing locations...

And maybe he chose tennis because he was better at it and/or the earning potential is better.

Some common sense is needed :rolleyes:

BodyServe
02-07-2012, 09:07 PM
Both sports are equals in terms of difficulty, neither are that difficult.

tangerine_dream
02-07-2012, 09:10 PM
Be thankful Novak doesn't ski competitively otherwise he'd beat Croatia at that, too.

samanosuke
02-07-2012, 09:10 PM
can't believe this come to world press :haha:

Kosetlic said this to one Croatian newspaper and immediately foreign newspapers heard for it

Nixer
02-07-2012, 09:10 PM
Next up, Liechtenstein representative says that Federer isn't a real sportsman, because he doesn't have talent for curling.

Stronga23
02-07-2012, 09:12 PM
to say neither one is that difficult is rediculous

certainly they arent the most difficult of all sports to play

in terms of which one is harder ..skiing probably is the harder of the 2

Tennis is more difficult than any American sport including NFL.

ossie
02-07-2012, 09:14 PM
who the fuck cares bout skiing?

MIMIC
02-07-2012, 09:20 PM
'Anybody can play tennis,'....

'For example, you have all these good tennis players from Venezuela, Peru, Chile and Spain - the skiing circle is much smaller.'

[...]

Kostelic pointed out that Djokovic was born on Kopaonik, Serbia's leading ski centre and 'tried skiing, but skiing isn't tennis,' reports said.

Bulletproof logic :worship:

Certinfy
02-07-2012, 09:22 PM
:stupid:

NID
02-07-2012, 09:22 PM
Ivica is a great skier. He is a somewhat troubled person, and I can see that it runs in the family.

"In January 2003, after winning the slalom at Kranjska Gora, Kostelić told the reporters that before the race he had felt "powerful, all-conquering, like a German soldier ready for battle in 1941", in reference to the June 1941 German invasion of the Soviet Union.[13] Although the Croatian media had largely ignored the statement, the weekly tabloid Nacional picked up the story and published an article featuring previously unreleased statements made by Kostelić from an interview that he gave to the weekly in May 2002. According to Nacional Kostelić said that he was "fascinated" with the scale of the World War II Luftwaffe attack on Britain and gave an opinion on the differences between national socialism and communism saying that "Nationalism was still a healthy system for someone who was ambitious. In communism, we weren’t permitted to be ambitious, and both systems were totalitarian."

Oh yes, and skiing used to have more variety twenty years ago. No snow cannons, no carving, just you and your 3m-long skiis made out of wood in deep powder. No gondolas, you would have to carry them to the mountain.

LawrenceOfTennis
02-07-2012, 09:25 PM
He is right. I started skiing at the age of 6, in first grade, and I have to agree with that statement although tennis is among the most difficult sports in terms of...everything. In any aspect.
Of course, amateur level skiing is easier than amateur level tennis, so it's not easy to decide though.

stewietennis
02-07-2012, 09:27 PM
A lot of bitterness in this person. Not sure about the "anybody can play tennis" statement – tennis is certainly more accessible than skiing; just as soccer is more accessible than tennis. But I wouldn't say anyone can play soccer. However anyone can pick up a racket and hit a ball just as anyone can put on a pair of skis and slide just as anyone can ride a bike or the same as anyone can throw a ball at a hoop – but it doesn't mean they'll do it as well as Djokovic, Stenmark, Armstrong or Jordan.

samanosuke
02-07-2012, 09:27 PM
I knew this would come :haha:

Good old MTF never let me down, only NID place on Earth, that's why i like it so much

stanch
02-07-2012, 09:31 PM
With due respect to Mr. Kostelić and all the effort he's made in raising Janica and Ivica to be such champions as they are - he's talking nonsense. Leave aside his jealousy about some being more successful than his children, especially if it's a Serbian guy (you know the Serb-Croat rivalry thing, some are still quite afflicted by those stupid wars). Anyway, he's also in a fight with Joško Vlašić, father of Croatian high-jumper Blanka Vlašić, because of the same thing. He claims that skiing is far more complex than high-jumping (and now tennis) and that it's much more difficult to break through. So conclusion - his opinion is irrelevant.



Off topic

Pirata, I like your avatar. Arya Stark, isn't it? I'm a big fan of 'A Song of Ice and Fire' series. Can't wait for 'Dance with Dragons' to be translated to Serbian.

Valar Morghulis. ;)

Nole Rules
02-07-2012, 09:32 PM
:spit:

v-money
02-07-2012, 09:32 PM
Golf looks really difficult. Getting that tiny ball into a hole that is a few hundred yards away, that has to take more skill then tennis. Plus, I don't see many professional golf players from Peru, Venezuela or Chile. A golfer obviously should have won the Laureus World Sportsman of the Year award.

samanosuke
02-07-2012, 09:36 PM
Golf looks really difficult. Getting that tiny ball into a hole that is a few hundred yards away, that has to take more skill then tennis. Plus, I don't see many professional golf players from Peru, Venezuela or Chile. A golfer obviously should have won the Laureus World Sportsman of the Year award.

his daughter won it

Time Violation
02-07-2012, 09:38 PM
Next up, Liechtenstein representative says that Federer isn't a real sportsman, because he doesn't have talent for curling.

+1

Pirata.
02-07-2012, 09:40 PM
Pirata, I like your avatar. Arya Stark, isn't it? I'm a big fan of 'A Song of Ice and Fire' series. Can't wait for 'Dance with Dragons' to be translated to Serbian.

Valar Morghulis. ;)

Good rep ;)

Looner
02-07-2012, 09:44 PM
who the fuck cares bout skiing?

The Swiss. Fed was voted behind 2 skiers for the past two years in their sportsman awards :o.

ossie
02-07-2012, 10:08 PM
The Swiss. Fed was voted behind 2 skiers for the past two years in their sportsman awards :o.
holy fucking facepalm :facepalm:

leng jai
02-07-2012, 10:35 PM
"bitter ski dad" is a great way to refer to someone IMO.

Ajde

finishingmove
02-07-2012, 10:36 PM
lol

BroTree123
02-07-2012, 11:10 PM
who the fuck cares bout skiing?

This +100.

tennizen
02-07-2012, 11:15 PM
jumping with skis>>>running with racquets.

emotion
02-07-2012, 11:32 PM
all those peruvian tennis stars have it easy

zlaja777
02-07-2012, 11:58 PM
The idea of comparing tennis and skiing this way is stupid enough per se, no matter the reason.

Johnny Groove
02-08-2012, 12:03 AM
One of the more idiotic things I've read on here, this.

Jealousy, haters, too much of it in the world.

MTF has handled the rest of this thread appropriately.

stewietennis
02-08-2012, 12:17 AM
It's good to see everyone on the forum agree about one thing.

Deathless Mortal
02-08-2012, 12:50 AM
That English translated article is rubbish.
What Ante Kostelic really said:
"Tennis can be played by anyone. There are great tennis players from Chile and Argentina, for example. Skiing circle is limited. Let me just remind you that Novak Djokovic was born on Kopaonik and that he had tried skiing himself. As my family is friends with the Djokovic family, I'll use their quote: "Skiing isn't tennis. Skiing is very complicated." "

So, did he try to downgrade Nole's success as a tennis player? No.
Did he mention Peru and Venezuela as tennis nations? No.
Also, this had nothing to do with Nole being chosen for the sportsman of the year.
He is not bitter over Nole's success and the part of the article related to tennis is very small and only used to compare skiing with another sport.

bouncer7
02-08-2012, 12:54 AM
Facts:

- Novak Djokovic of Serbia ended the 2011 season with a record amount of prize money: $12.6 million. The previous record amount of $10.1 million was shared by former world No. 1s Rafael Nadal and Roger Federer for their 2010 and 2007 seasons, respectively.

- In terms of prize money earned during the 2010/2011 season in the Audi FIS Ski World Cup, there were three athletes over all others: Lindsey Vonn, Maria Riesch and Ivica Kostelic. All three pocketed almost half a million Swiss francs each. Thanks to her eight season victories against Riesch's six, Vonn narrowly prevailed in the end of season list with CHF 462'000 compared with CHF 458'246 for Riesch. Kostelic, who collected seven season wins, netted CHF 421'107.


Let someone see which place he would be taken at prize money list of ATP players? ...out of top 30 ??? LOL

vucina
02-08-2012, 01:00 AM
http://news.monstersandcritics.com/europe/news/article_1689673.php/Father-Kostelic-Anybody-can-play-tennis-look-at-Novak

:awww:

I remember Djokovic talking about the time he had to decide between skiing and tennis. He loved skiing and was very good at it, but when he realized there's less money and greater chance to die doing that, the choice was easy.

leng jai
02-08-2012, 01:04 AM
I remember Djokovic talking about the time he had to decide between skiing and tennis. He loved skiing and was very good at it, but when he realized there's less money and greater chance to die doing that, the choice was easy.

I believe he was actually choosing between synchronized swimming and tennis. IMO he made the wrong choice - the world is missing out on the underwater leg up +ajde combo.

vucina
02-08-2012, 01:21 AM
I believe he was actually choosing between synchronized swimming and tennis. IMO he made the wrong choice - the world is missing out on the underwater leg up +ajde combo.

Damn dude, you're on a (t)roll.
This obsession with Nole is unhealthy. How will Haasi feel when he hears you replaced him in your dreams with a superior specimen?

BroTree123
02-08-2012, 01:26 AM
I guess a logical argument could be that -- if you make a mistake in skiing, it can be fatal compared to tennis :shrug:.

Kat_YYZ
02-08-2012, 03:36 AM
I guess a logical argument could be that -- if you make a mistake in skiing, it can be fatal compared to tennis :shrug:.

same could be said driving to work on the highway :shrug: no one's handing out any awards for arriving to the office in one piece, even in winter on icy roads.

tektonac
02-08-2012, 04:23 AM
i was disappointed to read that he missed to give a credit to legendary tennis players from papua and new guinea, fathers of modern tennis.

bokehlicious
02-08-2012, 06:45 AM
holy fucking facepalm :facepalm:

For some weird reason, some tend to fancy speed skating (dutchies) :shrug: or bowls/darts (brits). To each their own I guess.

buzz
02-08-2012, 07:25 AM
In every sport event for individual sports there can only be one winner, so it's all about how good your competition is. Tennis is a pretty popular sport which can be played in a lot of places (not like soccer, but easier than golf and skiing) there is decent money for the top players. So I think tennis is one of the most difficult sports to dominate.

Alex999
02-08-2012, 08:21 AM
when you play tennis you have to think... IMHO, it's not even close. I love both sports but this is stupid. This guy can say whatever he wants. Sure he loves skiing, that is his job. tennis is so much more demanding...

Fuser59
02-08-2012, 09:19 AM
''You cannot be serious''..this thread is a joke..Why can't you just start a thread about Murray's mum or something....anyway I do think it was a stupid thing to say Nole is a world phenomenon and Gips (the Dad) should stick to his own sport(s)..
Although I do believe Djokovic dad is also a little insane (THEY ALL ARE...) building a statue of his own 19 year old kid (at the time) at the tennis center in Belgrade...what's with that a personality cult of his own teenage child...?? What you can figure from this is that all parents are crazy except Roger's parents...they are just the essence of normal parents who don't love sticking out and being in center of attention...

shuhrat
02-08-2012, 09:42 AM
''You cannot be serious''..this thread is a joke..Why can't you just start a thread about Murray's mum or something....anyway I do think it was a stupid thing to say Nole is a world phenomenon and Gips (the Dad) should stick to his own sport(s)..
Although I do believe Djokovic dad is also a little insane (THEY ALL ARE...) building a statue of his own 19 year old kid (at the time) at the tennis center in Belgrade...what's with that a personality cult of his own teenage child...??
I guess you haven't read the original post? This has nothing to do with Novak's dad. :confused: And what statue do you mean? If you're referring to the terra-cotta statue at the Serbian Open venue, it was made by Shanghai Masters Cup committee in 2007.

What you can figure from this is that all parents are crazy except Roger's parents...they are just the essence of normal parents who don't love sticking out and being in center of attention...
:aparty:

Nole fan
02-08-2012, 09:45 AM
A lot of bitterness in this person. Not sure about the "anybody can play tennis" statement – tennis is certainly more accessible than skiing; just as soccer is more accessible than tennis. But I wouldn't say anyone can play soccer. However anyone can pick up a racket and hit a ball just as anyone can put on a pair of skis and slide just as anyone can ride a bike or the same as anyone can throw a ball at a hoop – but it doesn't mean they'll do it as well as Djokovic, Stenmark, Armstrong or Jordan.

Exactly. And what is his problem with Novak anyway? Is he trying to say that what Novak did is easy? Such a bitter man. :cuckoo:

Nole fan
02-08-2012, 09:46 AM
i was disappointed to read that he missed to give a credit to legendary tennis players from papua and new guinea, fathers of modern tennis.

:haha:

Machiavelli
02-08-2012, 10:01 AM
Father Kostelic is a legend in his own way, what he achieved with his kids (Janica and Ivica) is tremendous, people do forget that Croatia has barely any mountains on which you can ski. More then often I would disagree with him, but I am certain he did not bash Novak in this case; disgusting Serbian and Croatian yellow journalists who woant to make a mess and dispute out of nowhere, his statement was translated entirely wrong and not in the closest spirit of what he wanted to say. NID Serbian posters would come out of there caves and try to prove their greatness by bashing this guy, or delusional Nole fans who don't understand the Croatian-Serbian issue....

I myself have no issues with Djokovic, can't argue with the fact that he is currently the best in the world of tennis, case closed....

Time Violation
02-08-2012, 10:16 AM
Regardless of Djokovic, saying that tennis is easy because anyone can play is pretty dumb. Smaller circle in skiing also means less competition.

shuhrat
02-08-2012, 10:26 AM
Father Kostelic is a legend in his own way, what he achieved with his kids (Janica and Ivica) is tremendous, people do forget that Croatia has barely any mountains on which you can ski. More then often I would disagree with him, but I am certain he did not bash Novak in this case; disgusting Serbian and Croatian yellow journalists who woant to make a mess and dispute out of nowhere, his statement was translated entirely wrong and not in the closest spirit of what he wanted to say. NID Serbian posters would come out of there caves and try to prove their greatness by bashing this guy, or delusional Nole fans who don't understand the Croatian-Serbian issue....

I myself have no issues with Djokovic, can't argue with the fact that he is currently the best in the world of tennis, case closed....
Because every post on this thread is from either of the two groups? Your generalization and those derogatory words doesn't seem to make things any better. Though I believe he was misquoted to some degree, I still think some of his points (based on the corrected text by Deathless Mortal) are unfair. Furthermore what did you expect from tennis fans on a tennis forum? Of course, they wouldn't be happy with this type of remarks, no matter where they are coming from.

FairWeatherFan
02-08-2012, 10:57 AM
He's right. Tennis used to be a complicated game requiring grace and skill. Now it's just mindless baseline bashing and moonballing. Mugs like Nadal and Djokovic dominating the sport says it all.

ModestyB
02-08-2012, 11:08 AM
Father Kostelic is a legend in his own way, what he achieved with his kids (Janica and Ivica) is tremendous, people do forget that Croatia has barely any mountains on which you can ski. More then often I would disagree with him, but I am certain he did not bash Novak in this case; disgusting Serbian and Croatian yellow journalists who woant to make a mess and dispute out of nowhere, his statement was translated entirely wrong and not in the closest spirit of what he wanted to say. NID Serbian posters would come out of there caves and try to prove their greatness by bashing this guy, or delusional Nole fans who don't understand the Croatian-Serbian issue....

I myself have no issues with Djokovic, can't argue with the fact that he is currently the best in the world of tennis, case closed....

I don't know what his intention was, but saying those things right after Novak was awarded didn't really help him, right? And why did he have to talk about Novak or tennis in general to prove that skiing is difficult? Non-sense.

Really, journalist didn't even ask him about Novak, he started talking about it and making comparisons himself. And he wasn't misquoted at all. There's a video on this page: http://gol.dnevnik.hr/clanak/ostali_sportovi/gips-tenis-mogu-igrati-svi-a-skijanje-je-i-dzokovicu-bilo-komplikovano.html How is the translation wrong? :confused:

In his defense,I must admit that I had a trouble to follow his thoughts, but not because I don't understand Croatian, mostly because this guy really has a problem when he wants to translate his thoughts into an actual language. So, maybe he mistranslated his own thoughts, because some things he said don't make sense at all.

nadejda
02-08-2012, 12:09 PM
jumping with skis>>>running with racquets.

:haha:

timafi
02-08-2012, 12:11 PM
as much as I dislike Novak for being an obnoxious punk;I do enjoy him own Nadal's spanish huevos so much so I'll cut him some slack here and say that Kostelic is one hell of a bitter Bertha

Deathless Mortal
02-08-2012, 12:47 PM
Really, journalist didn't even ask him about Novak, he started talking about it and making comparisons himself. And he wasn't misquoted at all. There's a video on this page: http://gol.dnevnik.hr/clanak/ostali_sportovi/gips-tenis-mogu-igrati-svi-a-skijanje-je-i-dzokovicu-bilo-komplikovano.html How is the translation wrong? :confused:



I stand corrected about the part that he really did mention Venezuela and Peru as strong tennis nations :p
However, this whole thread (with that article in the first post) make it look like he meant to downgrade Nole's success and some people were saying he's jealous because Nole won the sportsman of the year award. This had nothing to do with any of that, and also, let me repeat, the sentence that skiing is more complicated than tennis is a quote of the Djokovic family. ;)

Deathless Mortal
02-08-2012, 12:50 PM
Just incredible how you all jump on Kostelic like a bunch of hyenas and ignore the posts which say that this article is misinterpreted and misunderstood. :facepalm:

Time Violation
02-08-2012, 12:54 PM
^^Serbia's wintersports potential/resources are laughable, most likely it would be easier to get an Formula 1 track, of course it is going to be "complicated". At least Slovenia is not that far from Zagreb if nothing else :)

niksonion
02-08-2012, 12:57 PM
Offcourse, when he had solid year,and his compariot won 3rd and 4th Olympic gold ...Mr Ammann offcourse

Deathless Mortal
02-08-2012, 12:59 PM
^^Serbia's wintersports potential/resources are laughable, most likely it would be easier to get an Formula 1 track, of course it is going to be "complicated". At least Slovenia is not that far from Zagreb if nothing else :)

So, where's the problem with what Ante said? :scratch:

And obviously you don't know the Kostelic story, but that's fine. Like they had big resources and went skiing in Slovenia. No they didn't. They were training on Sljeme with no money and nothing but a great will and hunger for success. Although this has nothing to do with the thread, I felt like giving you a little insight ;)

samanosuke
02-08-2012, 01:05 PM
I don't give a shit is he bitter on just Djokovic's family, is he he bitter on all Serbs, is he bitter on entire world . What about this think Serbian fans, Croatian fans, Nole fans or someone third . Just isn't right that this thread is going on wrong informations . Maybe I struggle with English but still understand Croatian perfectly and he said " We are friends with Djokovic's family " and you wouldn't be a friend with someone who you don't like or respect . So would like that people who didn't understand what he actually said and judging this case on some rubbish, yellow newspaper who can sell few example just with writing the words taken from context to shut the fuck up . And many people here who could understand and understood what he said but wanted to hear something else should go and heal problems of this type somewhere else

Time Violation
02-08-2012, 01:05 PM
Well, imagine if Kostelic won the award, and then Srdjan Djokovic went out and said "You know, tennis is a lot more complicated, anyone can lear to ski in a day, and there are like 8 countries competing", I'm sure he would be well received both in Croatia and on ski forums :p

Deathless Mortal
02-08-2012, 01:07 PM
I don't give a shit is he bitter on just Djokovic's family, is he he bitter on all Serbs, is he bitter on entire world . What about this think Serbian fans, Croatian fans, Nole fans or someone third . Just isn't right that this thread is going on wrong informations . Maybe I struggle with English but still understand Croatian perfectly and he said " We are friends with Djokovic's family " and you wouldn't be a friend with someone who you don't like or respect . So would like that people who didn't understand what he actually said and judging this case on some rubbish, yellow newspaper who can sell few example just with writing the words taken from context to shut the fuck up . And many people here who could understand and understood what he said but wanted to hear something else should go and heal problems of this type somewhere else

:yeah:
That's what I've been saying but no one seems to care, they just want something to hold on to. I guess it's boring these days when there are no ATP tournaments being played.

Deathless Mortal
02-08-2012, 01:08 PM
Well, imagine if Kostelic won the award, and then Srdjan Djokovic went out and said "You know, tennis is a lot more complicated, anyone can lear to ski in a day, and there are like 8 countries competing", I'm sure he would be well received both in Croatia and on ski forums :p

:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
For the 215810958105th time - this had nothing to do with the sportsman of the year award!
Some common sense is needed to understand that I guess, which you have none.

Time Violation
02-08-2012, 01:11 PM
:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
For the 215810958105th time - this had nothing to do with the sportsman of the year award!
Some common sense is needed to understand that I guess, which you have none.

Curious thing then that it came out a day or two later after the awards?

Deathless Mortal
02-08-2012, 01:17 PM
Curious thing then that it came out a day or two later after the awards?

It was after Ivica Kostelic got the award for the best Zagreb's sportsman, and Ante was talking about their fight with mainly Austrians in the Ski World Cup, and only mentioned tennis as an example how it's a sport that's played worldwide, unlike skiing which is held within a tight circle of countries, in which Croatia is an intruder as the Kostelic family got on the top out of nowhere and ruined plans for Austria, Switzerland, USA etc.
So, tennis was only used as an example, and it was tennis of all the sports because it's also an individual sport, and Novak was used as an example because the 2 families are friends and he only quoted what they said about skiing and tennis.
Got it now?

Time Violation
02-08-2012, 01:19 PM
Ah, well, the timing was pretty unfortunate for him, any other time and no one would care I guess :)

samanosuke
02-08-2012, 01:23 PM
Just praying that new war doesn't start . 15 years after today's kids who weren't aware of what was happening are 1000xxx more restricted and more shallow than people who were going through it 15 years back . With giving weapon in hands to these groups of people massive destruction would be inevitable . When will these two nations reach 21st century and leave this shit behind . How dumb you have to be to go spreading the greatness of these 2 countries on English speaking sport forum :facepalm:

munZe konZa
02-08-2012, 01:52 PM
Skiing more complicated than tennis?
Skiing is definitelly more inconvenient than tennis unless you have enough money and live on a moutain in a winter.
But there is also very little competition because of that and much less overall interest.
Seems like this guy doesn't know what he is talking about and he then says he is a friend of Nole and his family?
I douby they are friends now if they ever were.

munZe konZa
02-08-2012, 02:40 PM
Another thing is that tennis gets no respect because it goes out of its way to glorify non testosterone groups like women, gays and old people. I don't know of any sport that goes out of its way to appease these groups at the expense of the sport itself. I think this goes to the elitist roots of tennis and the people working there trying with social experiments.

NID
02-08-2012, 05:12 PM
Djokovic admits: "Skiing is more complex than tennis."

http://www.mondo.rs/s233353/Sport/Tenis/Novak-_Mama_pusti_me_na_Kop.html

Yeah, thanks to you and Bulzilla. It used to be complex like advanced maths, fine like Wedgewood china and translated poetry into motion. Then came homogenization of surfaces and your endless stamina, and sliding downhill on two slabs of composite materials suddenly looks complex in comparison.
:(
Bring back wooden racquets, gut strings, paint the ice green and make clay dust ankle-deep.
Ajde.

samanosuke
02-08-2012, 05:23 PM
so another MTF Quijotes thread can be closed . Those Dons can't feel much dumber than they are and others don't need to read their new adventures . And then somebody says that the books are product of imagination...