Does time wasting between points make it hard to tell how fit a player is? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Does time wasting between points make it hard to tell how fit a player is?

2003
02-05-2012, 11:15 AM
People say Rafa/Ferrer etc are top 3 on tour in terms of fitness, certainly looking at their bodies you would think so..but how can you tell when they waste so much time between points to recover?

Likewise with a number of top guys. Towelling down, aces, easy points, the sit down, taking up to an average of 35 seconds between single points, it is very easy for a player to recover that way. Almost like the fat mans track. This just doesnt happen in other sports like football, touch rugby, hockey etc.

The only breaks you get is when play is held up. So you know those guys are mega fit.

But with tennis players its harder to tell. They can use so much time to recover. Especially the players with big serves. Between taking 45 seconds between a point, hitting an ace and an unreturnable, and the sit downs, you can effectively recover.

I guess I just still wonder how fit tennis players are in relation to other sportsmen. Everyone is saying Nadal/Djokovic/Fed/Murray are insanely fit and amongst the worlds fittest athletes. But are they really? I love tennis but I do worry the sport is not as demanding perhaps as people think it is. In terms anyway of the endurance part of it.

Playing 7 best of 5 matches when time limit is potentially unlimited is extremely tough, no doubt about it. But with 2 days off per match, and so many chances with sit downs, bathroom breaks, injury time outs, hawk eye challenges, towel downs, querrying the umpires, aces/unreturnables/waiting for crowd to get seated, excess ball bouncing, and in general just what is sometimes quite frankly outright time wasting, it is hard to tell how fit these guys are. Play is just not continuous like it was intended to be.

What does everyone think? In sports like football, you get no break really. I think tennis was envisioned to be like that more or less. But what we are seeing just isnt to that formula.

You could also make a case that perhaps the players who stick to the 20 second rule might be the fittest. They arent looking for time wasting or feel that wasting time between points might send a message of fatigue to their opponent.

xdrewitdajx
02-05-2012, 11:48 AM
no.

GSMnadal
02-05-2012, 11:53 AM
Oh will you fedtards stop it with this... how about you actually stick to the tennis instead of complaining non stop about the court speeds and time ruling...

Literally every comment you guys make these days are about this and nothing else.

helvet kingdom
02-05-2012, 12:28 PM
Watching Nadull waste time prevents me from doing less painful activities, such as banging my head against the wall or putting my penis in the microwave.

TBkeeper
02-05-2012, 01:32 PM
yes of course have you ever seen Davy ? he only need like 10 seconds to prepare for the next point and that is from extreme significance !
He'll never gets tired and you must imagine if he was wasting 35 seconds between points :D --> invincibility !

helvet kingdom
02-05-2012, 01:35 PM
yes of course have you ever seen Davy ? he only need like 10 seconds to prepare for the next point and that is from extreme significance !
He'll never gets tired and you must imagine if he was wasting 35 seconds between points :D --> invincibility !

that is very true. Baldenko is very underrated:sad:

TBkeeper
02-05-2012, 01:36 PM
Oh will you fedtards stop it with this... how about you actually stick to the tennis instead of complaining non stop about the court speeds and time ruling...

Literally every comment you guys make these days are about this and nothing else.

Sorry For my language but ... ARE YOU BLIND OR DUMB ? OF COURSE there is a big difference if you waste more time between points ... oh my god i haven't imagined that this won't be obvious to someone at all :o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:mad:

Nixer
02-05-2012, 01:38 PM
yes of course have you ever seen Davy ? he only need like 10 seconds to prepare for the next point and that is from extreme significance !
He'll never gets tired and you must imagine if he was wasting 35 seconds between points :D --> invincibility !

I hope that's sarcasm, cause Davy has a very long serve preparation, at least 15 seconds - at any point of time, not even when tired

GSMnadal
02-05-2012, 01:45 PM
Sorry For my language but ... ARE YOU BLIND OR DUMB ? OF COURSE there is a big difference if you waste more time between points ... oh my god i haven't imagined that this won't be obvious to someone at all :o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:mad:

try and read my comment again, I never even said anything about that... apparently I'm not the only one who's blind or dumb

Myrre
02-05-2012, 01:55 PM
They are obviously very fit. Try just one of those 35 stroke rallies and I'm sure you'd be gasping for air. With less time to recover between points they'd definitely be more winded and likely to make mistakes on the next points. Not following the rules is cheating and umpires not enforcing the rules is just one of the many things that is wrong with tennis these days.

Time Violation
02-05-2012, 02:00 PM
Likewise with a number of top guys. Towelling down, aces, easy points, the sit down, taking up to an average of 35 seconds between single points, it is very easy for a player to recover that way. Almost like the fat mans track. This just doesnt happen in other sports like football, touch rugby, hockey etc.

It doesn't happen in football? Lol, then how come Federer is considered "old" when he's 30, and you have plenty of examples people playing in top football well into their 30s, some even close to their 40s - Paolo Maldini retired at 41 yrs old.

fmolinari2005
02-05-2012, 02:05 PM
Do we really need a new thread for this?! As long as they run for hours, beat their chests, pumps their fists and rips off their shirts at the end it is all good. Rules are overrated.

TBkeeper
02-05-2012, 02:34 PM
I hope that's sarcasm, cause Davy has a very long serve preparation, at least 15 seconds - at any point of time, not even when tired

... DAVYDENKO --- ? 15 seconds serve preparation ?!?!? wtf :D have you ever watched him ? he does that --> bounces the ball once to the ground then twice with the racquet then twice with the hand again and he serves that costs him 6-7 seconds at most ...
and i don't talk about when his opponent is serving... 2006-2007 all of his matches he just goes straight to where he is returning and waiting for the server ... no other bullshits

Johnny Groove
02-05-2012, 03:15 PM
In my day, I will try to spend as little time as possible between points. Quick serve them, get them rushed. Fed used to do it, spending 7-13 seconds between serves, and rushing these guys into errors.

But in order to do that, you yourself must also be in Adonis shape.

Clay Death
02-05-2012, 03:22 PM
top guns have that right. you can do what you want if your name is fed, nole, or nadal. they are 3 all time greats of the sport who are taking the sport to its highest level ever.

they are the faces and the names of this sport.

so 2 of them take 30 seconds or more. big fucking deal.

nole, nadal, and fed are still the fittest tennis players ever.

they dont mean it. it is just their routine to help them relax a little.

tennis2tennis
02-05-2012, 06:15 PM
~I think this is one of the things that I admire about Roger he challanges quickely and he keeps to the allotted time that's because he was raised playing to the rules and fast tempo - I'm might be wrong about this but I think attacking players are by nature fast between points they want to keep the tempo fast - I think Pete Sampras is another example of this!

Rafa and Nole play a far more taxing return/defensive game but the truth is even EARLY in the match when the number of strokes in the rally still hasn't reached double figures they still go beyond the allotted time




ESPN: Length of Aussie final didn't add up (http://espn.go.com/tennis/story/_/id/7528836/tennis-length-aussie-open-final-add-up)

Early in the match, ESPN's broadcast flashed a statistic showing Nadal's average time between points to be 31 seconds and Djokovic's to be 35 secords -- both well over the 20 seconds players are allotted at Grand Slam events. Around the end of the second set, when the umpire cautioned both players against taking too much time, the numbers were down slightly, showing Nadal at 30 seconds between points and Djokovic at 33 seconds. They likely increased once again during the later stages of the match, given that both players were understandably exhausted.

Even using the conservative estimate of 30 seconds and 33 seconds, respectively, that still adds considerably to the length of the match. With Djokovic playing 166 points on his serve, the Serb took 36 more minutes than he would have if sticking to the rules. Nadal, who played 203 points on his serve, took an extra 34 minutes. That adds up to 70 minutes, which would have put the match time at 4 hours, 43 minutes -- potentially shorter than the Wilander-Lendl U.S. Open final, the Nadal-Federer 2008 Wimbledon final (4 hours, 48 minutes) and even Djokovic's win over Andy Murray in the semifinals (4 hours, 50 minutes).

MaxPower
02-05-2012, 06:27 PM
Well most tennis players are crazy fit. They put in so many hours every week so would be strange if they weren't. I think it's wrong to focus the time wasting discussion on fitness. It's not just about fitness and getting that extra rest. The "time wasting" does wonders in other ways too.

help to focus/get tension down
wait for favorable wind situation
wait for crowd to calm down completely
unnerve an opponent who was in the zone
get coaching/signs

among other things. Basically it's "cheating" because the rules are bent in a way that could favor yourself. If the opponent follows the 25 sec rule and you don't then yes you are cheating. Technically I didn't have much problem with Nadal vs Djokovic because BOTH were cheating with it. And as I said the fitness aspect is just one thing among many.

Right now the only way to combat this time waste is to do it yourself. But what kind of idiot solution is that? Umpires need to act. It's their job and they too look like complete idiots because anyone with a stopwatch can tell what's going on

Looner
02-05-2012, 06:46 PM
Oh will you fedtards stop it with this... how about you actually stick to the tennis instead of complaining non stop about the court speeds and time ruling...

Literally every comment you guys make these days are about this and nothing else.

top guns have that right. you can do what you want if your name is fed, nole, or nadal. they are 3 all time greats of the sport who are taking the sport to its highest level ever.

they are the faces and the names of this sport.

so 2 of them take 30 seconds or more. big fucking deal.

nole, nadal, and fed are still the fittest tennis players ever.

they dont mean it. it is just their routine to help them relax a little.

I don't expect proper arguments from Nadulltards but saying the top guys are more equal than the others is exactly what Nadull has turned this sport into. IF everyone is not subject to the same, rules it can't be called a sport as a sport is defined by an EQUAL PLAYING FIELD aka as the same rules.

And GSMNadull, Don't worry once that abomination called a 'tennis player' Nadull retires we'll be happy again. :wavey:

I also remember I read somewhere the difference for these top athletes between a 10 and 20 second recovery interval is IMMENSE! So it does make a difference and a 4-hour match played according to normal rules is far more taxing than another 6-hour time wasting fest where players take 40 seconds to recover even though they're gladiators.

Foxy
02-05-2012, 08:40 PM
I don't expect proper arguments from Nadulltards but saying the top guys are more equal than the others is exactly what Nadull has turned this sport into. IF everyone is not subject to the same, rules it can't be called a sport as a sport is defined by an EQUAL PLAYING FIELD aka as the same rules.

And GSMNadull, Don't worry once that abomination called a 'tennis player' Nadull retires we'll be happy again. :wavey:

I also remember I read somewhere the difference for these top athletes between a 10 and 20 second recovery interval is IMMENSE! So it does make a difference and a 4-hour match played according to normal rules is far more taxing than another 6-hour time wasting fest where players take 40 seconds to recover even though they're gladiators.

Partly so, partly not. You are still not sitting in a chair or laying down resting. You are still walking, standing still, stretching, doing some other things while preparing the serve, pressure is ON... you name it. Plus if you take 40 sec then that means at the same time the opponent is also "resting", he can't play while you are "resting". It is not that big of an advantage as many here make it look. And it is not that someone is taking a minute or 2. It is some more seconds additionally.

samanosuke
02-05-2012, 08:45 PM
main problem of time wasting is breaking of tennis rules . i don't see any reason why would somebody need to respect other tennis rules when playing the guy who is doing that through the hole match

stewietennis
02-05-2012, 09:43 PM
You're not exactly resting when you're concentrating on the next point/serve. To the casual observer it may not look like they're doing anything. Some players let rip with the next serve right away, others need more time to prepare. Preparation is not rest. Taking extra time sitting down on a changeover is rest.

lalaland
02-05-2012, 09:56 PM
I think that 10 mins bathroom break Fed took during that match against Davydenko in the Aussie Open should be considered extra rest, no? Then again, it's Fed, he plays within the rule like a gentleman, so maybe he really has to go.

Looner
02-05-2012, 10:03 PM
I think that 10 mins bathroom break Fed took during that match against Davydenko in the Aussie Open should be considered extra rest, no? Then again, it's Fed, he plays within the rule like a gentleman, so maybe he really has to go.

Have you ever watched a tennis match in your life? If, as I suspect, the answer is no, what exactly are you doing on a tennis forum. Let me help you address this difficulty of yours. You have the right to take TWO (that reads as one and then another one) during your matches. That is part of the rules. Taking twice as much time to serve is complete disregard of said rules.

Negged for being a complete idiot.

lalaland
02-05-2012, 10:14 PM
Have you ever watched a tennis match in your life. If, as I suspect, the answer is no, what exactly are you doing a tennis forum. Let me help you address this difficulty of yours. You have the right to take TWO (that reads as one and then another one) during your matches. That is part of the rules. Taking twice as much time to serve is complete disregard of said rules.

Negged for being a complete idiot.

Did I touch a nerve? Oh, I'm sorry. Why are you so tick off by what I said? Didn't I just said maybe he really has to go?
Is it because you suspect ppl thought Fed's bathroom break was unnecessary? Oh, I see now.

They have the right to take bathroom break as much as they have the right to take MTO, that didn't stop the Fedtards from whinning about Rafa/Nole taking MTO even if they are truly injured. Sure, that got nothing to do with the time between points. Just that as other said, how many times ppl whined about the same thing again and again regarding Rafa and Nole, especially the Fedtards, maybe they forgot Fed is not a saint himself either.

And thanks to all those Fedtards for bad-repping me, clearly I did touch a nerve. This just prove that Fed's bathroom incident is a soft spot even for his own fans.

Shirogane
02-05-2012, 10:21 PM
The rules are the rules – either change them (set the time limit to 45 seconds :zzz: for example), or enforce them.

fmolinari2005
02-05-2012, 10:25 PM
Did I touch a nerve? Oh, I'm sorry. Why are you so tick off by what I said? Didn't I just said maybe he really has to go?
Is it because you suspect ppl thought Fed's bathroom break was unnecessary? Oh, I see now.

They have the right to take bathroom break as much as they have the right to take MTO, that didn't stop the Fedtards from whinning about Rafa/Nole taking MTO even if they are truly injured. Sure, that got nothing to do with the time between points. Just that as other said, how many times ppl whined about the same thing again and again regarding Rafa and Nole, especially the Fedtards, maybe they forgot Fed is not a saint himself either.

Yeah! Fed is no saint. Once he took a bathroom break that people thought was suspicious. Once Nadal and Nole went an entire match without taking to long to serve, getting oncourt coaching or abusing the MTO rule.

lalaland
02-05-2012, 10:34 PM
Ok, my bad, Fed is still a saint, because a 1-time offense should be quickly forgotten.
You guys should create a new forum that dedicate entirely to Nole and Rafa, I'm sure MTF is not big enough to handle that evil 2. I mean, those MTO, time between points, excessive celebration, and the biggest offense of all, they win tennis matches.

fmolinari2005
02-05-2012, 10:46 PM
On my way to good rep Looner.

Oh wait ...

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Looner again."

munZe konZa
02-05-2012, 10:47 PM
Once again people who hate the talented or pretend to be fans of less than talented players find something to gripe on.
Also laws that you call are man made and by definition imperfect

Looner
02-06-2012, 12:13 AM
Did I touch a nerve? Oh, I'm sorry. Why are you so tick off by what I said? Didn't I just said maybe he really has to go?
Is it because you suspect ppl thought Fed's bathroom break was unnecessary? Oh, I see now.

They have the right to take bathroom break as much as they have the right to take MTO, that didn't stop the Fedtards from whinning about Rafa/Nole taking MTO even if they are truly injured. Sure, that got nothing to do with the time between points. Just that as other said, how many times ppl whined about the same thing again and again regarding Rafa and Nole, especially the Fedtards, maybe they forgot Fed is not a saint himself either.

And thanks to all those Fedtards for bad-repping me, clearly I did touch a nerve. This just prove that Fed's bathroom incident is a soft spot even for his own fans.

I think I can say the same x100. The several MTO Nadull has taken were obviously tactical, especially that one at the French last year or at Wimbledon 2010. But if you fail to see that, I guess Nadal is within the rules.

I mean what a comedy this post yours is. There's ignorant people and then there's you who stands on a pedestal far above where no one else can see you, let alone reach you in your brilliant ignorance.. You can try and put down Fed's amazing sportsmanship but you'll just look like an idiot in the process. Case in point is this thread. You tried to change the topic completely so you can justify your pathetic hate :wavey:.

Once again people who hate the talented or pretend to be fans of less than talented players find something to gripe on.
Also laws that you call are man made and by definition imperfect

Great logic on display here. So if laws are so imperfect that randomly breaking them is so useful, shall I pop into your house and take some valuables whilst we're at it? I mean, you know, laws are imperfect so stealing is surely justified. Christ.

lalaland
02-06-2012, 01:06 AM
I mean what a comedy this post yours is. There's ignorant people and then there's you who stands on a pedestal far above where no one else can see you, let alone reach you in your brilliant ignorance.. You can try and put down Fed's amazing sportsmanship but you'll just look like an idiot in the process. Case in point is this thread. You tried to change the topic completely so you can justify your pathetic hate :wavey:.



Is that all you know how to debate a point, by insulting the opposition repeatedly :lol: Very convincing.

Am I changing the subject? You mean the whole point of this thread is not to whine about Rafa and Nole taking too much time between points? I mean, with all those complaining about the court too slow the rally too long, is it any doubt that players run a lot more these days than the old days? I don't think the duration of that AO final showed how fit they are, I think the amount of running during that 5 sets match showed their fitness.

I'm just trying to remind those Fedtards who think Fed never did a thing wrong on tennis court ever that they may have double standard. And I'm not even trying to justify what Nole/Rafa did.
They bent rules for sure, who doesn’t, even Fed did. I think players hurt their own legacy by doing those antics (suspicious MTO, bathroom breaks, time between points), but still it shouldn’t take away the tennis they play between breaks. Nole’s ball bounce still annoys me and I don’t really think Rafa’s MTO is all that legit, but I think if any player who lets their opponent’s antic gets in their head don’t deserve to win (god knows how mad I was at Picasso for letting Rafa thrown him off). On the tennis court, you need to handle whatever threw your way. That's how I think is the true measure of strength. I'm tired of those Fed fans who can't stop whining about that 2. I don’t know, maybe that’s the only way to get back at Rafa and Nole since Fed can't beat them anymore. I don't blame you for only knowing to insult me. Maybe reasoning is not your strong suit.

HKz
02-06-2012, 01:32 AM
I do wish they enforced the rules more. Sure I can understand a little leniency after a very long point or very important point during a match, but the rule is clearly stated and many of these players go 5, 10 even 15 seconds past the limit. It makes it more boring as a fan to watch and I'm sure it is occasionally frustrating for some players. I remember how frustrated many players would be 2004-2007 when Nadal used to do this even on his opponent's serve.

Is that all you know how to debate a point, by insulting the opposition repeatedly :lol: Very convincing.

Am I changing the subject? You mean the whole point of this thread is not to whine about Rafa and Nole taking too much time between points? I mean, with all those complaining about the court too slow the rally too long, is it any doubt that players run a lot more these days than the old days? I don't think the duration of that AO final showed how fit they are, I think the amount of running during that 5 sets match showed their fitness.

I'm just trying to remind those Fedtards who think Fed never did a thing wrong on tennis court ever that they may have double standard. And I'm not even trying to justify what Nole/Rafa did.
They bent rules for sure, who doesn’t, even Fed did. I think players hurt their own legacy by doing those antics (suspicious MTO, bathroom breaks, time between points), but still it shouldn’t take away the tennis they play between breaks. Nole’s ball bounce still annoys me and I don’t really think Rafa’s MTO is all that legit, but I think if any player who lets their opponent’s antic gets in their head don’t deserve to win (god knows how mad I was at Picasso for letting Rafa thrown him off). On the tennis court, you need to handle whatever threw your way. That's how I think is the true measure of strength. I'm tired of those Fed fans who can't stop whining about that 2. I don’t know, maybe that’s the only way to get back at Rafa and Nole since Fed can't beat them anymore. I don't blame you for only knowing to insult me. Maybe reasoning is not your strong suit.

Yes you certainly need to keep your head in the game, even if your opponent tries to pull these tactics, but come on, especially for MTOs, you have to wait there for several minutes and your body will naturally start relaxing, then your head goes, etc. MTOs are not the best example, since this thread deals with time between points, but if you have to wait nearly half a minute between each point, I mean your body goes into these lulls which I don't see is very fair for a player who is pumped up and doing well.

Looner
02-06-2012, 01:39 AM
Am I changing the subject? You mean the whole point of this thread is not to whine about Rafa and Nole taking too much time between points?

Yes, genius, imagine that. Rafita and Novak are not the only ones who play tennis professionally in the modern world made up of 7bn people. Del Potro regularly takes more time to towel off and he tried doing it during the AO only to be reminded that he shouldn't. Do you we think it's fair he has to comply and Rafita and Novak don't just because they're the n#1 and #2. Actually, don't answer as I can probably guess.

The new generation see the top players as examples so it's not only Rafita and Novak who take more time between points. Imagine that.

Seingeist
02-06-2012, 02:11 AM
Does time wasting by creating troll threads make it hard to tell how fit a poster is?

lalaland
02-06-2012, 02:21 AM
Yes you certainly need to keep your head in the game, even if your opponent tries to pull these tactics, but come on, especially for MTOs, you have to wait there for several minutes and your body will naturally start relaxing, then your head goes, etc. MTOs are not the best example, since this thread deals with time between points, but if you have to wait nearly half a minute between each point, I mean your body goes into these lulls which I don't see is very fair for a player who is pumped up and doing well.

Yes, I agree. For the MTO, it's only natural that you lose concentration after a long break. I'm not justifying any of those antics. I think they are wrong and my fav players don't do that and when other does, it put them in a disadvantage. In the ideal world, you want every rule to be followed, but since the world is not ideal, I think players will just have to find a way to deal with it in the mean time, until the authority put an effort to correct the situation. I hope they will. I tend to lose my own concentration when the in-between point took too long :lol:.

I think fans have the right to complain about this, I just don't see the point of whining about it in a consistent basis, it just make them sound bitter. And it's getting comedic that this whining threads spring up in all kind of form. And if those fans can't take that their own fav being called out on his antic, then they shouldn't call on others. Double standard is even more annoying than whining. But anyway, this is the first time I've ever comment on this because honestly, I'm really tired of reading the whining on and on. So why the hell am I on this thread arguing with these whiners, good question. I guess I'm bored, watching Super Bowl just to see those commercials, that's a lot of down time to kill. But I guess to not further antagonize other Fed fans, I probably should stop right here :). Good day.

fivebargate
02-06-2012, 02:30 AM
...but how can you tell when they waste so much time between points to recover?

This is of course a valid point. Seemingly exploiting the lack of enforcement in this area of the rules is part of what helps these guys win....or why else would they do it? Not only is the distasteful because of the advantage over the player who plays fair and adheres to the rule...but it also shapes the sport in general - you pinch time, you recover more, you can play more hard and long points. Perhaps the most disgusting exploitation of this rule to me is the returner making the server play at his pace by way of delayed toweling etc...sadly an all too common occurrence with certain players. Anyway...lets hope the on-court shot clock gets it's trial this season and is implemented in due course.

Ultimately I just want the tour to enforce the rules they have, or be done with them altogether. Take the coaching side for further example. You have Nadal who blatantly depends on Uncle Toni's tactical input at all stages of his matches....and yet a blind eye is turned towards it. Meanwhile on an outside court...Verdasco is fined 8k for the very same. And of the fine - of what benefit to the person cheated against? They have turned up, played by the rules....and suffered at the hand of those with the audacity to think themselves outside the remit of fair play. If these rules are to remain, they surely must offer some instant benefit to the person offended against ie the opponent....by way of an instant point/game penalty. There is no justice or solace to be found in an after-match financial penalty....and it is clearly of little deterrent.

barbadosan
02-06-2012, 03:35 AM
I think that 10 mins bathroom break Fed took during that match against Davydenko in the Aussie Open should be considered extra rest, no? Then again, it's Fed, he plays within the rule like a gentleman, so maybe he really has to go.

Before you wilfully mis-state the length of the bathroom break, I suggest you go look at the tape again. The length of the break was no longer than any other bathroom break Fed has taken before or since, whether leading or behind in the match. And how come you choose not to accuse him of breaking the rules when he has gone for a similarly timed bathroom break when he has been up 2 sets to love? Curious. Must be an oversight on your part :) - or maybe you just live in lalaland, period.

bouncer7
02-06-2012, 03:37 AM
Troicki has 1 second serve preparation and that's why he is a mug and mental midget.