John McEnroe comments on Djokovic, top 4 dominance and upcoming players [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

John McEnroe comments on Djokovic, top 4 dominance and upcoming players

Lopez
02-02-2012, 11:43 AM
I thought it was a good read :yeah:. Some good comments.

John McEnroe believes World No. 1 Novak Djokovic has "become as mentally tough as you possibly can be on a tennis court - certainly athletically."

Speaking at a tennis academy, in New York, on Wednesday, McEnroe said, "Djokovic has lifted his game to a point where I think maybe his return has now maybe surpassed [Andre] Agassi. It used to be [Jimmy] Connors and Agassi. Now it's like beyond belief, what [Djokovic] can do with the return."

Djokovic captured his fifth Grand Slam championship title as he defeated No. 2-ranked Rafael Nadal 5-7, 6-4, 6-2, 6-7(5), 7-5 in five hours and 53 minutes - the longest major championship final on record - at the Australian Open on Sunday. Read Match Report

"He's much more elastic," said McEnroe. "I noticed years ago, how the flexible he was and how hard he worked on it. I thought to myself, 'This is going to pay off.' I didn't realise to what extent and advantage this would be, but it's certainly proven to be. I think it's something that has to be considered very seriously by other players, because there is lost more balls being hit with an open stance, off the back foot.

"I think his forehand is one of the biggest shots in the game, and his backhand has become better. He doesn't seem like a whole lot of things are going to go wrong."

McEnroe believes men's professional tennis is presently in a golden era, with the Top 4 in the South African Airways ATP Rankings - Djokovic, Nadal, Roger Federer and Andy Murray - all reaching the semi-finals of the past five major championships.

"I think it's an incredible time, actually," said McEnroe. I think we better enjoy it while it lasts. The shots that these guys can come up with ... is phenomenal. They've taken this baseline game to a whole new level.

"Roger is 30 now, and he's still playing pretty amazingly well. Murray played the best match I had ever seen him play even though he lost it [against Djokovic in the Australian Open semi-finals]. Those guys sort of get into these war of wills where they're just going to sort of break each other until one of them literally falls over."

McEnroe is scheduled to play an exhibition match with Milos Raonic, the defending SAP Open champion, against Gael Monfils and Jack Sock in San Jose on 13 February.

When asked about the next generation of young talent on the ATP World Tour, McEnroe said, "I see Bernard Tomic and I see Milos at the moment with the greatest up side. I think Ryan [Harrison] is going to be an excellent player as well, but these guys have that extra gear it appears.

"Bernard sort of plays his own game, but Milos, to me, has an incredible chance to do something really big in tennis. I feel like he's making some great progress. I think he's definitely going to have a chance to win majors if he can continue to add to his game."

McEnroe won seven Grand Slam championships during his career. The 52-year-old American clinched his 78th doubles title with Jonas Bjorkman at the SAP Open in 2006.

From 13-16 March, McEnroe will play an ATP Champions Tour event in Stockholm.

Link: http://www.atpworldtour.com/News/Tennis/2012/02/Features/McEnroe-Hails-Djokovic-Tennis-Golden-Era.aspx

Branimir
02-02-2012, 12:49 PM
John McEnroe always had high opinion of Djokovic. I remember in 2009/2010 his comments about Nole were like: Wtf happened to this guy, why he is not winning more slams and why he is not number 1? Almost like Nole let him down.

Johnny Groove
02-02-2012, 12:50 PM
Pretty spot on from Johnny Mac, especially regarding Djokovic and his flexibility. I recall reading an article a few years ago discussing Djokovic and how he stretches multiple times a day. This is the kind of elasticity that Roger no longer has and Rafa I don't think ever had. Those two and Murray surely have more muscle and power than Nole, but the Serb easily trumps them in flexibility.

Sampras and McEnroe doing some good analysis the past few months.

Shinoj
02-02-2012, 01:17 PM
Quite insightful by McEnroe.. He was spot on regarding Djokovic's return and the state of the mens game. And really Raonic has much better future than Tomic,i thinks.

arm
02-02-2012, 02:07 PM
He has always been one of Nole's best cheerleaders. :cheerleader: :hug:

LawrenceOfTennis
02-02-2012, 02:16 PM
McEnroe has always been a kind of a hyper.
Even Though I hope the best for Raonic and I really like him, he needs a return and a backhand to do any damage at the big stage. Winning Chennai is not proving anything.
Tomic has the brightest future, not Raonic. Raonic is a great athlete with potential but he doesn't have Tomic's touch and groundstrokes. Tomic has huge variety. McEnroe is not insightful at all.

MuzzahLovah
02-02-2012, 02:20 PM
It's kind crazy how even Berdych is sliding on hardcourts now- the Nole effect.

LawrenceOfTennis
02-02-2012, 02:24 PM
It's kinda pathetic how these legends are trying to follow trends and say the "right" things. He is right, Djokovic is on an amazing level, but he always sounds like a hyper.

Fabilicious
02-02-2012, 02:29 PM
"McEnroe believes men's professional tennis is presently in a golden era, with the Top 4 in the South African Airways ATP Rankings - Djokovic, Nadal, Roger Federer and Andy Murray - all reaching the semi-finals of the past five major championships."

:cuckoo:

rocketassist
02-02-2012, 02:30 PM
Pundits say this shit to make people watch the sport- if they said negative stuff, no one would tune in.

green25814
02-02-2012, 02:39 PM
Pundits say this shit to make people watch the sport- if they said negative stuff, no one would tune in.

Yeah, this. I like Mac but you have to take everything guys like him, Becker, etc say with a grain of salt.

He's spot on about Nole and the elasticity though.

ballbasher101
02-02-2012, 05:25 PM
How long have we known the Djoker is flexible? We have known for years. He must do yoga surely ;). The fountain of youth. I have done yoga, it is kick ass :worship:. Hope to start again soon. Truth be told Johnny Mac has been a fan of the Djoker for maybe 4 or 5 years. He is not hyping the Djoker he has always rated him highly.

Clydey
02-02-2012, 05:38 PM
Pretty tired of thise nonsense about Djokovic having the best return of all time. I wish people would consult the stats. Staistically, he isn't even in the top 10. And that's despite his dominance from the baseline.

MIMIC
02-02-2012, 06:03 PM
"McEnroe believes men's professional tennis is presently in a golden era, with the Top 4 in the South African Airways ATP Rankings - Djokovic, Nadal, Roger Federer and Andy Murray - all reaching the semi-finals of the past five major championships."

:cuckoo:

Golden Era not a fitting title? Is "Platinum Era" more appropriate? :)

Vida
02-02-2012, 08:28 PM
McEnroe afraid to say golden slam so he gives us golden era.

arm
02-02-2012, 08:31 PM
Pretty tired of thise nonsense about Djokovic having the best return of all time. I wish people would consult the stats. Staistically, he isn't even in the top 10. And that's despite his dominance from the baseline.

Funny :lol: very funny. You surely know more than guys like Rafa or Murray who are actually 'experiencing' his return of serve.

Lopez
02-02-2012, 08:32 PM
Pretty tired of thise nonsense about Djokovic having the best return of all time. I wish people would consult the stats. Staistically, he isn't even in the top 10. And that's despite his dominance from the baseline.

He was the best last year, no? Or am I full of shite?

latso
02-02-2012, 08:35 PM
I can't see how Raonic could get anywhere close to the necessary level to win a GS.

There's barely anything he can do to beat an under 30yo Djokovic, Nadal or Murray on a GS and there will be others by that time to break the speed of sound from the baseline.

stewietennis
02-02-2012, 08:36 PM
"McEnroe believes men's professional tennis is presently in a golden era, with the Top 4 in the South African Airways ATP Rankings - Djokovic, Nadal, Roger Federer and Andy Murray - all reaching the semi-finals of the past five major championships."

:cuckoo:

He probably sees some parallels with his era against Borg, Connors and Lendl. It's not really an outrageous statement.

latso
02-02-2012, 08:37 PM
He was the best last year, no? Or am I full of shite?
Raw stats are full of it when it is about such a classification.

It's not about how much mugs you broke or how many return winners you made, it's all about When.

Djokovic is by far the best returner in the game, no doubt about that.

He surpassed Agassi, who was the best before.

rutinos harcos
02-02-2012, 08:50 PM
It's kinda pathetic how these legends are trying to follow trends and say the "right" things. He is right, Djokovic is on an amazing level, but he always sounds like a hyper.

Pity he cannot be hyper about Delpony.Oh well,there is a reason for that.

LawrenceOfTennis
02-02-2012, 08:58 PM
Pity he cannot be hyper about Delpony.Oh well,there is a reason for that.

Did not expect any better from a hungarian.

rocketassist
02-02-2012, 09:14 PM
Raw stats are full of it when it is about such a classification.

It's not about how much mugs you broke or how many return winners you made, it's all about When.

Djokovic is by far the best returner in the game, no doubt about that.

He surpassed Agassi, who was the best before.

Agassi returned bigger and better serves.

LawrenceOfTennis
02-02-2012, 09:17 PM
Agassi returned bigger and better serves.

This.
Djokovic is a fantastic returner, but Agassi had to return on trickier courts such as faster grass courts and a lot faster hard courts at USO and of course lightning fast indoors.

Lopez
02-02-2012, 09:49 PM
Agassi did get aced a lot though as a consequence.

Not saying Nole is better, I really don't have an opinion on this. Nole's aggressive BH return is amazing especially in the Ad court but Murray exposed his FH return in their AO match. Murray served like 99% first serves as slices in the fifth set of their semi final and Djokovic couldn't get to the returns as well.

stewietennis
02-02-2012, 10:04 PM
Raw stats are full of it when it is about such a classification.

It's not about how much mugs you broke or how many return winners you made, it's all about When.

Djokovic is by far the best returner in the game, no doubt about that.

He surpassed Agassi, who was the best before.

Returning the ball is one thing. Returning it so as to deter serve and volleyers – that adds another dimension to the shot. The margin for error is greater when you know the server will just be staying at the baseline.

Mae
02-02-2012, 10:26 PM
Being from the U.S. I'm very tired of John McEnroe :rolleyes:

LawrenceOfTennis
02-02-2012, 10:28 PM
Being from the U.S. I'm very tired of John McEnroe :rolleyes:

No wonder.
He is right here, but talks too much BS.

Roddickominator
02-03-2012, 02:54 AM
Mac is just doing his job...hyping the game and trying to get some mainstream attention. At least on this occasion he isn't saying completely absurd things that have no argument.

Agree with those skeptical about Raonic....other than the serve I really don't see much special in his game. Tomic is the guy to be looking at.

Jimnik
02-03-2012, 06:01 AM
J-Mac, literally the only coherent tennis commentator.

Clydey
02-03-2012, 06:21 AM
He was the best last year, no? Or am I full of shite?

In some categories, yes. All time? Not even close. That was his first season as return leader, but crucially he didn't finish top on points won returning first serve.

Clydey
02-03-2012, 06:24 AM
Funny :lol: very funny. You surely know more than guys like Rafa or Murray who are actually 'experiencing' his return of serve.

When did Murray ever say Djokovic has the best return on tour?

I don't need to do anything except look at the statistics. Considering his baseline game, he should be topping the stats every year. People have bought into the myth that he is the best returner on tour/all time. When did this happen? Did he randomly start returning serve better last year or did the bump in his stats have something to do with his peerless game from the baseline?

Raw stats are full of it when it is about such a classification.

It's not about how much mugs you broke or how many return winners you made, it's all about When.

Djokovic is by far the best returner in the game, no doubt about that.

He surpassed Agassi, who was the best before.

Utter bullshit. I'll list his career return stats. I hate to make this point as a Murray fan, but I will anyway. His placement in the following stats is in brackets.

Return games won, all time? 13th (Murray is 4th).

First serve return points won, all time? 19th (Murray is 4th).

Second serve return points won, all time? 15th (Murray is 9th).

The only return stat he is in the top 10 for is BPs converted. He's 5th (Murray is 26th).

Maybe I should break it down further and focus on hardcourts, since clay courters get a boost when you don't break it down by surface (even though he is one of the best clay courters on tour).

Return games won on hardcourts, all time? 7th (Murray is 1st).

First serve return points won on hardcourts, all time? 15th (Murray is 2nd).

2nd serve return points won on hardcourts, all time? 13th (Murray is 3rd).

Again, he only ranks among the very best in BP conversion. He is 4th all time (Murray is 45th).

So despite having a superior baseline game to Murray through his career, he has inferior return stats. This fact is magnified when you look at hardcourt stats. So if anyone from the current era is the best returner ever, it is Murray. It sure as shit ain't Djokovic.

atennisfan
02-03-2012, 06:36 AM
Agassi returned bigger and better serves.

This.

No way Djokovic is better returner than Agassi.

McEnroe has gone senile

Clydey
02-03-2012, 06:52 AM
This.

No way Djokovic is better returner than Agassi.

McEnroe has gone senile

Agassi's return is overrated. Great second serve returner, but not a great first serve returner. He is 53rd all time on 1st serve return points won. He got aced a hell of a lot. In my opinion, returning first serves is the true test of a returner. Anyone can put a second serve back in play and allow their superior rallying ability to take over. Of course, Agassi didn't do that. He was ultra aggressive.

scoutreporter
02-03-2012, 06:53 AM
It's kinda pathetic how these legends are trying to follow trends and say the "right" things. He is right, Djokovic is on an amazing level, but he always sounds like a hyper.

you troll. Anything , absolutely anything positive about Nole you have to somehow make it into something negative. Its kinda pathetic of you. Its not like McEnroe first started praising Nole last year when he started dominating, he was 'hyping' to use your word, about Nole every since he came to the scene.

zcess81
02-03-2012, 08:21 AM
More about Nole from tennis.com...more about his return of serve.


Life in the Nole Era


A pattern has emerged in the later rounds of men’s Grand Slams over the last year. Novak Djokovic faces Rafael Nadal or Roger Federer. Djokovic, usually, wins. The audience, just as often, comes away disappointed.

This phenomenon was most obvious at Roland Garros in 2011, when Federer was the severe crowd favorite in his semi against the Serb. But it was just as true at Flushing Meadows, where Sarah Jessica Parker and the rest of the New York City audience came to life as Nadal was doing the same late in the third set. And it was true again in Rod Laver Arena early Monday morning. The biggest roar of the six-hour final accompanied an inside-out forehand winner that Nadal ripped when he was up 4-2 in the fifth set. For the first time in hours, it appeared that Rafa was going to win. The crowd was ready to help get him home. He didn't make it, and they were left to cheer appreciatively, but not wildly, for the champ.

Djokovic is the world’s best player by a country mile at the moment. He’ll head for Paris in May trying to become the first man since 1969 to win four straight majors—the Djoker Slam. But while he is a king in his home country, on the evidence of the audience reactions I’ve seen over the last 12 months, he has yet to conquer the hearts of tennis fans worldwide. This shouldn’t be all that surprising. Fans rarely accept new stars right away in this sport, especially when they’re knocking off old favorites. And Federer and Nadal aren’t just any old favorites. Few players have enjoyed the worldwide popularity that they have. Together they seem to account for every tennis fan on earth; if most of us are either in Roger’s or Rafa’s camp, that doesn’t leave a lot of love left over for Nole. For even more casual observers, the general attitude might be summed up by ESPN pundit Tony Kornheiser's line about the changes at the top of the men’s game: “Djokovic? I was just getting used to Nadal.”

This isn’t to say that Djokovic is a modern-day Ivan Lendl, a dour, unbeatable villain presiding over the demise of a beloved rivalry and golden age. But he did rub people the wrong way in his brash early days, with his noisy entourage, on-court ailments, and protracted ball bouncing. Despite his historic effort at this year’s Aussie Open, his shirtless, screaming victory celebration likely didn’t win him many new fans from the sport’s traditionalist base, the same fans who have made Federer a demigod for the better part of a decade.

OK, Djokovic is not the elegant maestro; nor does he exude the childlike passion for the sport that has endeared Nadal to so many. Not every champion is going to be beloved, but tennis fans should be getting used to the idea that this one is here to stay, and that the Federer-Nadal duopoly no longer rules. What’s a diehard Roger or Rafa fan to do in these dark times? You know what they say: Focus on the positive. Here are four things that any tennis fan should be able to appreciate about Novak Djokovic.

*****

Djokovic is a good sport in two senses of the word
It’s true that he has retired from matches that looked like losing causes, rather than going down with the ship. And his full-scream victory celebrations may seem over the top to some. But Djokovic is also quick to applaud an opponent’s good shot, even when he’s behind in the score. And after a tough defeat, like his loss to Federer at the French Open last year, he’ll still go in for the congratulatory hug.

He’s also a good sport in the other sense of the word. During the Aussie Open, the Bryan brothers talked about how, unlike other top players who will keep their distance, he was happy to jump onstage with their band and rap with them. Djokovic was also happy to do the same thing a few minutes after his exhausting win over Nadal, when he reportedly belted out a rendition of AC/DC’s “Highway to Hell” at the Aussie Open staff party. Uptight he isn't.

Djokovic is a versatile performer
The players put on an exhibition before the weekend before the Australian Open began. Djokovic, as he typically is in these situations, was at the center of the fun, pretending to have a heart attack on the court.

Two weeks later, in a very different mood, Djokovic found just the right words and tone in his trophy speech after the final. He recognized that it had been a battle that could have gone either way, and he began by emphasizing the collaboration between the two players in making it an epic match: “We made history,” he told Nadal. There was pride but no sense of triumphalism in any of his words during the speech. For a top athlete, celebrity, and national figure in his country, Djokovic exhibits surprisingly little ego or self-regard.

Djokovic’s return of serve alone is worth the price of admission
He often doesn’t appear to be doing anything spectacular on the court; Djokovic’s game is based more on lack of weaknesses than it is on standout shot-making. But Nadal, for one, in his post-final presser, was impressed by one element of his game in particular. Without being asked, Rafa sang a short hymn to the Djokovic return of serve, saying it had to be one of the “best of history.”

Watch Djokovic hit returns next time he plays. He makes a spectator sport out of that shot alone, the same way Pete Sampras did with the serve. On one point, he’ll hit it early with his backhand, direct the ball at a sharp crosscourt angle, and take the initiative from his opponent with one swing. On the next point, he’ll leap out of the way of a serve hit right at him and reflex back a deep forehand return while his body is moving in the other direction. Djokovic's particular athletic mix—his balance, quickness, and hand-eye—is on full display when he's returning.

In the Aussie Open final, Djokovic combined the best of Federer and Nadal
For the better part of three sets, he made beating a 10-time Slam winner look ridiculously easy. Djokovic moved smoothy, almost casually. He controlled the rallies without taking big risks. He got the ball into Nadal’s backhand seemingly at will. He dialed the pace up as needed. Like Federer, he made all of it appear effortless.

In the end, though, it took effort, a lot of it. In the end, Djokovic needed to out-Rafa Rafa. Down 5-4 in the fifth set, with the crowd against him again, having run for 10 hours over the last three days, Djokovic came out after the changeover and started firing with more confidence than he had shown all set. He shrugged off the disappointment of blowing the fourth, and won the last three games against a guy who was 15-3 in five-set matches.

Federer and Nadal fans may not have loved seeing another Slam fall to the world No. 1, but it was an effort worthy of the era that those two players began, and that Djokovic is poised to continue. It was worthy of a round of applause from any tennis lover.


http://blogs.tennis.com/thewrap/2012/02/life-in-the-nole-era.html

Lopez
02-03-2012, 08:37 AM
Agassi's return is overrated. Great second serve returner, but not a great first serve returner. He is 53rd all time on 1st serve return points won. He got aced a hell of a lot. In my opinion, returning first serves is the true test of a returner. Anyone can put a second serve back in play and allow their superior rallying ability to take over. Of course, Agassi didn't do that. He was ultra aggressive.

There's a lot of science that goes into second serves as well, as Agassi did, many tend to swing away at that. Maybe as a whole, you'll make more UEs but you will also make the server more uneasy with that strategy, which goes a long way when the players are about on the same level.

Djokovic hits a lot of return winners and near winners, even on first serves, which is why perhaps the players feel that his return is so difficult. Even having the ability of hitting winners off first serves is very rare. Now, he might make more errors and as a result not win as often, but when you have a game where you hit like 3 first serves that come back to the baseline or are winners, the server will feel an awful lot pressure. This happened in the USO final many times and IIRC the Wimbledon final's last game of the first set where Nole broke after Nadal hit almost exclusively first serves.

cocrcici
02-03-2012, 09:07 AM
Statistics is Bullshit :D

ossie
02-03-2012, 09:20 AM
mcenroe keeping it real

Fabilicious
02-03-2012, 09:39 AM
He probably sees some parallels with his era against Borg, Connors and Lendl. It's not really an outrageous statement.

Not my point:
"with the Top 4 in the South African Airways ATP Rankings - Djokovic, Nadal, Roger Federer and Andy Murray - all reaching the semi-finals of the past five major championships"; correct me if i'm getting something wrong but
1. Fed Wimby 11 QF exit
2. Rafa AO 11 QF exit

Nobody else notice this?

arm
02-03-2012, 11:13 AM
When did Murray ever say Djokovic has the best return on tour?



Rafa after the final:

Is something unbelievable how he returns, no? His return probably is one of the best of the history. That's my opinion, no? I never played against a player who's able to return like this. Almost every time.

Clydey
02-03-2012, 11:16 AM
Rafa after the final:

Yes, that's why I asked when Murray ever said that.

There's a lot of science that goes into second serves as well, as Agassi did, many tend to swing away at that. Maybe as a whole, you'll make more UEs but you will also make the server more uneasy with that strategy, which goes a long way when the players are about on the same level.

Djokovic hits a lot of return winners and near winners, even on first serves, which is why perhaps the players feel that his return is so difficult. Even having the ability of hitting winners off first serves is very rare. Now, he might make more errors and as a result not win as often, but when you have a game where you hit like 3 first serves that come back to the baseline or are winners, the server will feel an awful lot pressure. This happened in the USO final many times and IIRC the Wimbledon final's last game of the first set where Nole broke after Nadal hit almost exclusively first serves.

If he's hitting 3 first serve returns as winners/onto the baseline per game, I guarantee that he is going to top the return stats. Besides, you are talking almost exclusively about Nadal. He isn't putting 3 of Isner's or Karlovic's serve on the baseline per game.

The first serve return stats don't lie. He is a better baseliner than anyone on tour, including Murray and Nadal. There is no explanation for why Murray wins more points off the first serve return than Nole does, other than to say that he is the better returner. The stats just do not lie.

People can try to make as compelling a case as they would like, talking about putting pressure on the server, hitting winners off the return, etc. The fact is that he does not win as many points off the return as do the best returners of all time. The only reason his return is currently so hyped is because he is dominating the tour, and people need to pinpoint something he does better than anyone. Federer had his forehand, Nadal had his movement, and now Djokovic apparently eclipses every single returner who has ever played the game, despite trailing miles behind them statistically.

Halba
02-03-2012, 11:20 AM
djoker easily the best returner in history. federer was also a good defensive returner at his peak. got a lot of big serves back.

its all about performing in the slams. murray has 0 slams, cant be the best returner at all

arm
02-03-2012, 11:21 AM
Yes, that's why I asked when Murray ever said that.

Oh yes, pretty sure I have heard him praise Nole's return of serve last year.

Vida
02-03-2012, 11:21 AM
for present conditions, djokovic certainly has the best return in the game. all time? who knows. maybe when hes done it could be said that his return is the best in history. I think he can go that far, but thats speculation.

Clydey
02-03-2012, 11:42 AM
Oh yes, pretty sure I have heard him praise Nole's return of serve last year.

He may very well have, but he never called it the best on tour and certainly not the best in the game's history.

djoker easily the best returner in history. federer was also a good defensive returner at his peak. got a lot of big serves back.

its all about performing in the slams. murray has 0 slams, cant be the best returner at all

Is this seriously your argument? It has nothing to do with slams. Karlovic has the best first serve of all time and he has no slams.

This sort of logic drives me nuts. I lay out indisputable facts and I get this turd of a response.

for present conditions, djokovic certainly has the best return in the game. all time? who knows. maybe when hes done it could be said that his return is the best in history. I think he can go that far, but thats speculation.

Based on what? He has only ever finished ahead of Murray in one season. In every other season, Murray has won more points off the return than Djokovic. Nole had an outstanding 2011 in every sense, no question. A single season's work cannot define his return game, however.

I will break it down season by season if you wish.

arm
02-03-2012, 11:52 AM
He may very well have, but he never called it the best on tour and certainly not the best in the game's history.




Of course not, because his own is as good, or pretty close to Nole's... he is obviously not going to say that Nole's is the best. :shrug:

But because Murray doesn't say then it certainly isn't true?

leng jai
02-03-2012, 11:55 AM
Pretty tired of thise nonsense about Djokovic having the best return of all time. I wish people would consult the stats. Staistically, he isn't even in the top 10. And that's despite his dominance from the baseline.

Thread length + 100. Ajde

Clydey
02-03-2012, 11:58 AM
Thread length + 100. Ajde

I'll argue all day when it comes to this. I won't argue about the backhand or half of the other stuff. Gott call bullshit on this one. It's baseless hype.

TS4?

Vida
02-03-2012, 12:02 PM
He may very well have, but he never called it the best on tour and certainly not the best in the game's history.



Is this seriously your argument? It has nothing to do with slams. Karlovic has the best first serve of all time and he has no slams.

This sort of logic drives me nuts. I lay out indisputable facts and I get this turd of a response.



Based on what? He has only ever finished ahead of Murray in one season. In every other season, Murray has won more points off the return than Djokovic. Nole had an outstanding 2011 in every sense, no question. A single season's work cannot define his return game, however.

I will break it down season by season if you wish.

its a "peak djokovic" return game that counts I guess. for all time though, yeah I think we should wait till they're said and done.

arm
02-03-2012, 12:19 PM
I'll argue all day when it comes to this. I won't argue about the backhand or half of the other stuff. Gott call bullshit on this one. It's baseless hype.

TS4?

You are way smarter than that.

Captain Piranha
02-03-2012, 12:21 PM
Fair play Clydey for sticking to your opinions, I'm with you. I think Nole is a great players & I like him, so i'm not blinded from dislike or whatever when looking at facts, opinions or Legend's views.

Take their semi final, similar on returns stats if i'm not mistaken but with Nole having a better 2nd serve. Murray still punished a better 2nd serve as ofen as his weaker one was punished. Rafa has had his days of being oblitirated off seve from Murray too, first serves made to look like 2nd serves in Japan last year in sets 2-3, 3rd one in particular.

A lot of things with Nole can't be argued, terrific player, but the hype machine is OTT right now. I'd love the return stas for Murray-Nole 2012 Aus Open & both their stats for tournament as a whole.

Sure Andy will be up there :)

Clydey
02-03-2012, 12:41 PM
You are way smarter than that.

I'm giving you facts to back up what I'm saying.

speedballs
02-03-2012, 12:47 PM
He may very well have, but he never called it the best on tour and certainly not the best in the game's history.



Is this seriously your argument? It has nothing to do with slams. Karlovic has the best first serve of all time and he has no slams.

This sort of logic drives me nuts. I lay out indisputable facts and I get this turd of a response.



Based on what? He has only ever finished ahead of Murray in one season. In every other season, Murray has won more points off the return than Djokovic. Nole had an outstanding 2011 in every sense, no question. A single season's work cannot define his return game, however.

I will break it down season by season if you wish.

the point is djokovic was never considered the best at anything prior to 2011 - but guess what hes won 4 of the last 5 slams since, so that 1 season means alot more to this current argument than the 2007, 2008 and 2009 seasons for example, so no need to break it down.

besides i think nadals opinion is more valid than a bunch of linear statistics

Quadruple Tree
02-03-2012, 12:59 PM
I'll say the same thing I said in the Agassi thread. Agassi was returning against some of the best serve and volleyers of all time with some of the biggest serves of all time: Sampras, Ivanisevic, Becker, Krajicek, and Stich. He had a winning record against all of them except for Sampras. Then of course there were guys like Rafter and Edberg who didn't have the big bombing serves, but had insane kick serves and, along with McEnroe, the best volleys of the last 35 years. All of those guys put immense pressure on a returner because he had to hit a great return to win a point. Anything less was going to get put away for a volley winner. Djokovic only has to get the ball back in play to start the rally because no one comes to net anymore. This isn't even taking into account that Agassi was returning serves on much faster surfaces, which is another factor in his favor.

tl:dr

Agassi RoS >> Djokovic RoS

Clydey
02-03-2012, 01:23 PM
the point is djokovic was never considered the best at anything prior to 2011 - but guess what hes won 4 of the last 5 slams since, so that 1 season means alot more to this current argument than the 2007, 2008 and 2009 seasons for example, so no need to break it down.

besides i think nadals opinion is more valid than a bunch of linear statistics

So by that reasoning, Federer can also be considered the best first serve returner ever, since he topped the stats in 2006. You cannot just look at one season. Seriously, he is lagging behind the best returners for his entire career and he has one exceptional return season and he's suddenly the best of all time? Get a clue. You would have to abandon reason to accept such an absurd argument. And even in Djokovic's best ever season, he still finished behind Murray on points won returning the first serve.

And who cares about Nadal's opinion on the return? You can't argue with the stats. You are comparing one current player's view to 6 or 7 years worth of statistics. If he was the best returner, with his baseline game to back it up, he should be finishing ahead of everyone in the stats. Like I said, you cannot look at a single season and draw such a ridiculous conclusion.

If you don't like the facts, that's just tough shit. Facts > opinions.

Clydey
02-03-2012, 01:25 PM
I'll say the same thing I said in the Agassi thread. Agassi was returning against some of the best serve and volleyers of all time with some of the biggest serves of all time: Sampras, Ivanisevic, Becker, Krajicek, and Stich. He had a winning record against all of them except for Sampras. Then of course there were guys like Rafter and Edberg who didn't have the big bombing serves, but had insane kick serves and, along with McEnroe, the best volleys of the last 35 years. All of those guys put immense pressure on a returner because he had to hit a great return to win a point. Anything less was going to get put away for a volley winner. Djokovic only has to get the ball back in play to start the rally because no one comes to net anymore. This isn't even taking into account that Agassi was returning serves on much faster surfaces, which is another factor in his favor.

tl:dr

Agassi RoS >> Djokovic RoS

That same argument applies to a lot of players in that era, many of whom won a higher percentage of points than Agassi on first serve returns.

speedballs
02-03-2012, 01:38 PM
So by that reasoning, Federer can also be considered the best first serve returner ever, since he topped the stats in 2006. You cannot just look at one season. Seriously, he is lagging behind the best returners for his entire career and he has one exceptional return season and he's suddenly the best of all time? Get a clue. You would have to abandon reason to accept such an absurd argument. And even in Djokovic's best ever season, he still finished behind Murray on points won returning the first serve.

And who cares about Nadal's opinion on the return? You can't argue with the stats. You are comparing one current player's view to 6 or 7 years worth of statistics. If he was the best returner, with his baseline game to back it up, he should be finishing ahead of everyone in the stats. Like I said, you cannot look at a single season and draw such a ridiculous conclusion.

If you don't like the facts, that's just tough shit. Facts > opinions.

you can look at one season when that season was only a few weeks ago sure. if you are considering murray to be one of the best ever service returners, and his stats show this - then how can you say djokovic is not when his stats have been better than murrays for the last 15 months? if those 15 months had been 5 years ago and he had since dipped then you would have a point, but the FACT is that djokovic has surpassed murray and is still outperforming him now. how djokovic returned 3 years ago has little relevance to how he currently returns - its called improvement.

and as far as nadals opinion goes, having played djokovic (and every other top pro) numerous times, been world number 1 and won 10 slams - i think its more valid than you make out

Clydey
02-03-2012, 01:50 PM
you can look at one season when that season was only a few weeks ago sure. if you are considering murray to be one of the best ever service returners, and his stats show this - then how can you say djokovic is not when his stats have been better than murrays for the last 15 months?

Because I'm talking about their career, not selecting their single best period in the game. Talk about intellectual dishonesty. And it's 12 months, not 15 months. Must you continue to twist the facts?

if those 15 months had been 5 years ago and he had since dipped then you would have a point, but the FACT is that djokovic has surpassed murray and is still outperforming him now. how djokovic returned 3 years ago has little relevance to how he currently returns - its called improvement.

Yes, in his baseline game. He isn't doing anything better on return. He is simply winning more points in the rallies than he used to.

And Djokovic has not surpassed Murray. That is why Murray still outperforms him on winning points against the first serve, which is the true test of a returner. It's easy to put a second serve back in play and win a neutral rally when you're as good as Nole. Please explain why he still wins fewer points than Murray on first serve returns, despite having had a far better season than Andy?

and as far as nadals opinion goes, having played djokovic (and every other top pro) numerous times, been world number 1 and won 10 slams - i think its more valid than you make out

It is one opinion. Suddenly Nadal's opinion trumps statistical facts? Give me a break.

speedballs
02-03-2012, 02:31 PM
Because I'm talking about their career, not selecting their single best period in the game. Talk about intellectual dishonesty. And it's 12 months, not 15 months. Must you continue to twist the facts?



Yes, in his baseline game. He isn't doing anything better on return. He is simply winning more points in the rallies than he used to.

so youre admitting the stats are dubious?

Clydey
02-03-2012, 02:41 PM
so youre admitting the stats are dubious?

No. I've always said that second serve return stats are based on more than just the return. First serve return stats are less influenced by other variables.

speedballs
02-03-2012, 03:21 PM
No. I've always said that second serve return stats are based on more than just the return. First serve return stats are less influenced by other variables.

any more criteria you want to add? how about we say anything outdoors is unreliable because the weather can have an influence

Clydey
02-03-2012, 03:49 PM
any more criteria you want to add? how about we say anything outdoors is unreliable because the weather can have an influence

Nice try. That isn't the same thing, and well you know it. Rallying ability is obviously a big factor in determining who wins those points. It's not like I'm trying to exclude second serve returns, since Djokovic lags behind the best returners of all time in that statistic as well.

Lopez
02-03-2012, 04:03 PM
I wish they'd keep track of return winners and near winners. That's also a sign of a good returner in my opinion. It's much more difficult to hit a winner off the return than to just put the ball back in play.

Clydey
02-03-2012, 04:08 PM
I wish they'd keep track of return winners and near winners. That's also a sign of a good returner in my opinion. It's much more difficult to hit a winner off the return than to just put the ball back in play.

I think there are better pure second serve returners than both Murray and Djokovic. Not necessarily in terms of ability, but in terms of their willingness to take on the second serve. Both Murray and Djokovic do it a lot, but still not as often as I'd like. Players like Nalbandian or Agassi will be going after the return whenever possible.

Lopez
02-03-2012, 04:14 PM
I think there are better pure second serve returners than both Murray and Djokovic. Not necessarily in terms of ability, but in terms of their willingness to take on the second serve. Both Murray and Djokovic do it a lot, but still not as often as I'd like. Players like Nalbandian or Agassi will be going after the return whenever possible.

That's true. And I'd like it to be measured as well since I feel it's also a measure of returning ability.

Having played a lot myself, I find that the difference in executing an aggressive return vs a more passive one can be quite big. I'd bet a lot of people agree with me here.

Of course it's different if you're playing against a mug who can't serve over 100kmh/h second serves :p.

Clydey
02-03-2012, 04:23 PM
That's true. And I'd like it to be measured as well since I feel it's also a measure of returning ability.

Having played a lot myself, I find that the difference in executing an aggressive return vs a more passive one can be quite big. I'd bet a lot of people agree with me here.

Of course it's different if you're playing against a mug who can't serve over 100kmh/h second serves :p.

I accept that there is a lot of skill that goes into an aggressive second serve return. It's a different kind of skill to first serve returning. The point I'm making is that it's more difficult to get a sense of someone's second serve return based on statistics. It's much easier to determine a good first serve returner by looking at statistics.

NID
02-03-2012, 08:24 PM
It's a mug era when a statistically better player (Murray) is still slam-less and a statistically inferior mug (Djokovic) lucks his way through the draws time and time again.

Clydey
02-03-2012, 08:40 PM
It's a mug era when a statistically better player (Murray) is still slam-less and a statistically inferior mug (Djokovic) lucks his way through the draws time and time again.

Misplaced sarcasm. There's a difference between being a statistically better returner and a statistically better player. You already know that, but you are deliberately misrepresenting my argument.

Just in case I wasn't clear, Djokovic is a better player than Murray, statistically, subjectively, theoretically, practically, ineveryfuckingwayally. Now, stop going out of your way to twist my words. Few things piss me off more than wilful ignorance.

NID
02-03-2012, 08:51 PM
i am not 'twisting your words'. i am stating my opinion. stop going out of your way to read into it something that is not there. few things piss me off more than reading into my sentences more than there is, however wrong it may be.

Clydey
02-03-2012, 08:59 PM
i am not 'twisting your words'. i am stating my opinion. stop going out of your way to read into it something that is not there. few things piss me off more than reading into my sentences more than there is, however wrong it may be.

So you think Djokovic is an inferior player to Murray and has just had lucky draws over the past 12 months? Taken at face value, that is what your post said.

Singularity
02-03-2012, 09:29 PM
So by that reasoning, Federer can also be considered the best first serve returner ever, since he topped the stats in 2006. You cannot just look at one season. Seriously, he is lagging behind the best returners for his entire career and he has one exceptional return season and he's suddenly the best of all time? Get a clue. You would have to abandon reason to accept such an absurd argument. And even in Djokovic's best ever season, he still finished behind Murray on points won returning the first serve.

And who cares about Nadal's opinion on the return? You can't argue with the stats. You are comparing one current player's view to 6 or 7 years worth of statistics. If he was the best returner, with his baseline game to back it up, he should be finishing ahead of everyone in the stats. Like I said, you cannot look at a single season and draw such a ridiculous conclusion.

If you don't like the facts, that's just tough shit. Facts > opinions.
But he may well continue his current returning performance in subsequent seasons.

As for the question of second serve returns, isn't the conclusion that we can't tell how good Djokovic's second serve return is, statistically? If so, then that still leaves the door open for Djokovic being an exceptional returner. The decision to look at first serves only doesn't settle the issue in any way.

Clydey
02-03-2012, 09:43 PM
But he may well continue his current returning performance in subsequent seasons.

As I said, I don't believe his return has improved. But even if it has, you are simply speculating. Calling him the best returner of all time based on how he has returned to this point in his career is absurd. How do you reconcile that view with the facts?

As for the question of second serve returns, isn't the conclusion that we can't tell how good Djokovic's second serve return is, statistically?

You can get an idea, but it's less reliable than first serve return statistics. No one is denying that he is one of the best returners in the world. Himself and Murray are miles ahead of the pack.

If so, then that still leaves the door open for Djokovic being an exceptional returner. The decision to look at first serves only doesn't settle the issue in any way.

He is an exceptional returner.

I listed all of the return stats and he lags behind on all of them except for BP conversion, so I'm not focusing on any particular stat. I laid them all out, but my personal opinion is that first serve return is the most telling statistic.

I'm afraid that people are just buying into the hype. The claims being made about his return are baseless. It's the usual hyperbolic nonsense we see when a player is dominant.

Singularity
02-03-2012, 10:01 PM
As I said, I don't believe his return has improved. But even if it has, you are simply speculating. Calling him the best returner of all time based on how he has returned to this point in his career is absurd. How do you reconcile that view with the facts?
Well, even looking at first serve return points won, Djokovic improved significantly from 2010 to 2011. In any case, my position isn't to declare anyone a 'winner' right now, but to wait and see how Djokovic's career pans out, given the massive improvements he's made in his game.

Djokovic's 2011 is only one season, just like Federer's 2004 was.

Clydey
02-03-2012, 10:09 PM
Well, even looking at first serve return points won, Djokovic improved significantly from 2010 to 2011. In any case, my position isn't to declare anyone a 'winner' right now, but to wait and see how Djokovic's career pans out, given the massive improvements he's made in his game.

Precisely my point. To call him the best returner of all time is, at this time, both statistically inaccurate and premature.

Farenhajt
02-04-2012, 12:04 AM
My impression is that, while Murray may have better return stats on paper, Novak's return is far more dangerous when it matters - i.e. Murray returns well, but Novak's return is fortified by his out-of-this-world head.

atennisfan
02-04-2012, 12:36 AM
So you think Djokovic is an inferior player to Murray and has just had lucky draws over the past 12 months? Taken at face value, that is what your post said.


This.

some of these tards are becoming tardier.

hipolymer
02-04-2012, 12:44 AM
Djokovic is the best returner not because of "statistics" but because of clutchness. Look at the important returns he made against Federer in the USO semi and against Nadal in the 5th set.

leng jai
02-04-2012, 12:47 AM
Djokovic is the best returner not because of "statistics" but because of clutchness. Look at the important returns he made against Federer in the USO semi and against Nadal in the 5th set.

You could easily argue that is simply due to his superior mental fortitude (which affects your entire game) - it doesn't say a whole lot about which return is better on a technical level.

Clydey
02-04-2012, 02:16 AM
Djokovic is the best returner not because of "statistics" but because of clutchness. Look at the important returns he made against Federer in the USO semi and against Nadal in the 5th set.

My impression is that, while Murray may have better return stats on paper, Novak's return is far more dangerous when it matters - i.e. Murray returns well, but Novak's return is fortified by his out-of-this-world head.

Leng jai hit the nail on the head.

MIMIC
02-04-2012, 02:37 AM
The Shot™ confirms Novak's return as the greatest ever :rocker2: :cool:

NID
02-04-2012, 08:31 AM
So you think Djokovic is an inferior player to Murray and has just had lucky draws over the past 12 months? Taken at face value, that is what your post said.

Yup. I subscribe to the Cabbage School of Thought.

Farenhajt
02-04-2012, 11:29 AM
You could easily argue that is simply due to his superior mental fortitude (which affects your entire game) - it doesn't say a whole lot about which return is better on a technical level.

While "better on a technical level" is a category very popular among the fans of lesser players, its usability is dubious. What consolation Gasquet's fans can find in the fact that his one-handed backhand is, technically, easily the best on the tour? What consolation Rafa's fans can find in the fact that his topspins are the craziest ever, when he can't win a substantial title for the dear life? etc.

leng jai
02-04-2012, 11:42 AM
While "better on a technical level" is a category very popular among the fans of lesser players, its usability is dubious. What consolation Gasquet's fans can find in the fact that his one-handed backhand is, technically, easily the best on the tour? What consolation Rafa's fans can find in the fact that his topspins are the craziest ever, when he can't win a substantial title for the dear life? etc.

Some people don't need results to derive enjoyment out of their players. For example, I support Haas because I like his style of play, his backhand and his overall demeanor. I don't need any "consolation" for his lack of results because I simply enjoy watching him play. I went to his match against Nadal this year and he lost in straight sets but I still very much enjoyed the match. If I watched matches to live vicariously through a player's slams I'd support one of the top 3.

If you are going to use results as the barometer for how good a shot is then theres not much to discuss. Thats a low brow way of analysing the technical aspects of the game and its not something I'm interested in. Federer doesn't have the best single hander because he has 16 slams.

Farenhajt
02-04-2012, 07:13 PM
Some people don't need results to derive enjoyment out of their players. For example, I support Haas because I like his style of play, his backhand and his overall demeanor. I don't need any "consolation" for his lack of results because I simply enjoy watching him play. I went to his match against Nadal this year and he lost in straight sets but I still very much enjoyed the match. If I watched matches to live vicariously through a player's slams I'd support one of the top 3.

If you are going to use results as the barometer for how good a shot is then theres not much to discuss. Thats a low brow way of analysing the technical aspects of the game and its not something I'm interested in. Federer doesn't have the best single hander because he has 16 slams.

Whatever the chosen barometers may be, "better on technical level" is excessively used as (a) another way of kissing the ass of a player you support, while objectively it may have little merit regarding the player in question, or (b) a sweet lemon strategy for players whose fanbase cherishes high hopes and wild dreams about their professional achievements. So excessively that its "objective" use (whatever THAT may be) is hardly even noticeable.

Singularity
02-04-2012, 08:09 PM
While "better on a technical level" is a category very popular among the fans of lesser players, its usability is dubious. What consolation Gasquet's fans can find in the fact that his one-handed backhand is, technically, easily the best on the tour? What consolation Rafa's fans can find in the fact that his topspins are the craziest ever, when he can't win a substantial title for the dear life? etc.
Why does it matter whether any individual shot is better than any other individual shot?

leng jai
02-04-2012, 08:53 PM
Whatever the chosen barometers may be, "better on technical level" is excessively used as (a) another way of kissing the ass of a player you support, while objectively it may have little merit regarding the player in question, or (b) a sweet lemon strategy for players whose fanbase cherishes high hopes and wild dreams about their professional achievements. So excessively that its "objective" use (whatever THAT may be) is hardly even noticeable.

So in other words lets not look at shots on their own individual merits and chose focus on the results they produce because thats the only thing people care about. Its no wonder this 90% of this forum is made up of glory hunting top 3 tards bitching over results and off court rubbish.

munZe konZa
02-04-2012, 09:04 PM
It's a mug era when a statistically better player (Murray) is still slam-less and a statistically inferior mug (Djokovic) lucks his way through the draws time and time again.
Stats are dependent on who they play. Murray plays weaker players more and loses to better players more often

Farenhajt
02-04-2012, 09:06 PM
So in other words lets not look at shots on their own individual merits and chose focus on the results they produce because thats the only thing people care about. Its no wonder this 90% of this forum is made up of glory hunting top 3 tards bitching over results and off court rubbish.

Well... that WAS the very essence of this place while there was such thing as Federer. Doesn't seem it's gonna change.

Seriously, "technically perfect" shot which bears no fruit is pretty much a contradiction, no? Apart from the player X's tards creaming over whatever technically perfect shot he makes (but still lingers slamless, toptenless, titleless or whatever) to console themselves after yet another loss, you'll see very VERY few people indulging in such sort of futile discussion.

munZe konZa
02-04-2012, 09:06 PM
Why does it matter whether any individual shot is better than any other individual shot?

It really doesn't matter but most youngsters will copy what they see out there.

Singularity
02-04-2012, 11:14 PM
Seriously, "technically perfect" shot which bears no fruit is pretty much a contradiction, no?
Does Ivo Karlovic's first serve bear fruit? How many major titles has he won in his career?

leng jai
02-04-2012, 11:18 PM
Well... that WAS the very essence of this place while there was such thing as Federer. Doesn't seem it's gonna change.

Seriously, "technically perfect" shot which bears no fruit is pretty much a contradiction, no? Apart from the player X's tards creaming over whatever technically perfect shot he makes (but still lingers slamless, toptenless, titleless or whatever) to console themselves after yet another loss, you'll see very VERY few people indulging in such sort of futile discussion.

Which is the problem with this forum in the first place.