The English riots: the personal cost [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

The English riots: the personal cost

abraxas21
11-27-2011, 02:34 PM
Amelia Gentleman speaks to youngsters for whom a few heady days in August have cast a long shadow

Last week, Danielle Corns was sentenced to 10 months in prison for momentarily stealing two left-footed trainers during riots in Wolverhampton. As she was sentenced, her mum Sharon began shouting at the judge from the public gallery: "You're destroying an innocent girl's life… How can you do that to somebody?" As she screamed, her daughter began to cry, and Sharon was swiftly made to leave the courtroom by security staff.

That evening, as she waited to find out which prison Danielle had been sent to, Sharon said she thought her daughter would not cope well with being in jail. "It's a damaging experience. She'll never be able to erase it from her mind. She shouldn't have to experience that. She's not a criminal. It's very unfair, the way she's been treated. It's just so wrong."

Now that we're deep into November, the heat and chaos of midsummer feels a distant memory, but for the families of young people caught up in the riots, the events of a few anarchic August days have cast long shadows.

For those who have never been in trouble with the police before, and who appear to have had only the most fleeting involvement, the severity of the treatment they have received has come as a shock. Time spent in the courtrooms, where judges are still only beginning to wade through the fallout from these events, reveals how many lives have been ruined in an instant by the simple decision to venture out, to look at what was happening in the streets. Time spent with relatives shows how one person's arrest can have devastating implications for the rest of the family.

Judges and magistrates justify the unusually stiff penalties they are still giving to those found guilty of riots-related offences by citing their right to impose stricter sentences as a deterrent. It was in this climate that two young men who set up a Facebook page encouraging a riot (which they never attended and which never actually took place) were sentenced to four years in prison, and that a young mother of two – who herself slept through the riots – was sentenced to five months for accepting a pair of shorts, looted by a friend (although she was later freed on appeal).

Immediately after the riots, the political signals were very clear. David Cameron said it was important that judges sent out a "tough message". Lord Chief Justice Lord Judge defended some of the most severe decisions, remarking, "Given the overall ghastliness of what was going on in the country, these sentences had to be significantly higher." Judges concluded that the sentences should reflect the mood of public indignation.

For people such as Danielle Corns, this has led to peculiar judgments; it's hard to see what's happening to her as anything other than a pointless waste of her time and taxpayers' money....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/nov/25/england-riots-personal-cost-youngsters-sentenced

what a sham. the rich have been screwing the poor classes for centuries and one harmless teenage girl robs a pair of shoes and gets 10 months in prison. the rich and the politicians are doing everything in their power to protect their system

buddyholly
11-27-2011, 02:52 PM
She didn't steal a pair of shoes. She wasn't that smart.

Just a normal English rose walking down the High Street in August in her ski gloves.

abraxas21
11-27-2011, 02:59 PM
i was waiting for you. it only took you 18 min. not bad...

Certinfy
11-27-2011, 03:10 PM
I think it's great she got sentenced to be fair. Just the problem here is why should one girl be sentenced while thousands of others are simply left free?

abraxas21
11-27-2011, 03:29 PM
I think it's great she got sentenced to be fair.

:facepalm: i always thought you were a bit of a clown. i just wasnt sure why

Just the problem here is why should one girl be sentenced while thousands of others are simply left free?

read the whole article. it's not just her case, it's the way the english courts have dealt with all of the people who have been involved or were involved in the riots.

Roadmap
11-27-2011, 03:31 PM
I suppose the judges are still trying to work out how much jail time the banksters should get for effectively costing the country hundreds of billions. They are taking a while :rolleyes:

Sham Kay
11-27-2011, 04:34 PM
Well we can't confirm she was harmless, for one thing we don't know her and she had the guts to wade through the melee and craziness and 'jack' two left footed trainers. The stupidity of the crime aside, the punishment doesn't fit the crime, that part is obviously true. Most of the rioters/looters aren't exactly criminals as such, she clearly got herself involved with the crowd mentality.

She deserves a greater punishment than what she would normally get for the crime, but not 10 months. Extended community service would have sufficed, save the 10 months for the far greater crimes. They'll probably end up shortening the sentence.

Everything from the policing of the rioters to the sentencing has been a shambles, but it's the same with everything English authorities aren't used to dealing with.

Sofonda Cox
11-27-2011, 04:37 PM
Don't know enough about the case, but I hope she's good at table tennis.

GOAT = Fed
11-27-2011, 05:10 PM
She should be sentenced and receive punishment for her wrong-doing, although 10 months sounds way too harsh for a pair wrong-footed trainers.

I think the system is giving her a punishment for all the other people that were not caught which I think is wrong. One thing this harsh punishment might accomplish though is that it will deter people from stealing and they'll think twice before looting.

Sham Kay
11-27-2011, 06:56 PM
Could just give her a 10 month course on how to properly steal footwear.

Seingeist
11-27-2011, 08:30 PM
what a sham. the rich have been screwing the poor classes for centuries

It must be somewhat nice to have such a limited conceptual apparatus through which you understand and interpret current events. Makes thinking easier.

One imagines that you would offer the same "analysis" about a story in which a McDonald's patron is shorted her fries, or in which a monkey escapes from the zoo, etc.

Could just give her a 10 month course on how to properly steal footwear.

:lol:

abraxas21
11-27-2011, 09:17 PM
It must be somewhat nice to have such a limited conceptual apparatus through which you understand and interpret current events. Makes thinking easier.

One imagines that you would offer the same "analysis" about a story in which a McDonald's patron is shorted her fries, or in which a monkey escapes from the zoo, etc.



:lol:

i understand that it must quite annoying for you that i'm able to make good points in concize sentences -aphorisms, if you will- whereas you need at least 5 pages of careful dedication to write down the same old tired BS that many others have expressed with more eloquence and sense than you :wavey:

Seingeist
11-27-2011, 09:27 PM
i understand that it must quite annoying for you that i'm able to make good points in concize sentences -aphorisms, if you will-

:haha:


Please pardon me, Confucius.

In my own humble lack of understanding, I failed to recognize how a somewhat harsh penalty for theft was meaningfully reducible to "the rich screwing the poor."

I will meditate on this further until I achieve your wisdom.

EddceLLent
11-27-2011, 09:32 PM
It must be somewhat nice to have such a limited conceptual apparatus through which you understand and interpret current events. Makes thinking easier.

One imagines that you would offer the same "analysis" about a story in which a McDonald's patron is shorted her fries, or in which a monkey escapes from the zoo, etc.

:lol:

+1

The riots were about opportunistic criminality, and I for one am sick of those with a political agenda trying to attribute it to inequality.

buddyholly
11-27-2011, 09:33 PM
A few days ago you were berating me for commenting on a Canadian case where an Afghan man and his son drowned the three girls in the family along with his other wife. (The girls liked nice clothes and talked to boys at school.) You said the press should not report this stuff, for some reason that escapes me other than that you must favour press censorship, so we would all end up reading Granma.

Given that English justice sets the standard for the world, I would think you would favour ignoring this small anomaly in favour of concentrating on the big picture.

Apart from that, if I were to clutter the forum by starting a thread over every little thing I found worthy of criticism in the non-Western world, I would rightly be called a huge mug clown. Why don't you stick to important stuff, like dwarf tossing?

Mae
11-27-2011, 09:36 PM
She should be sentenced and receive punishment for her wrong-doing, although 10 months sounds way too harsh for a pair wrong-footed trainers.

I think the system is giving her a punishment for all the other people that were not caught which I think is wrong. One thing this harsh punishment might accomplish though is that it will deter people from stealing and they'll think twice before looting.

I don't know if anything will ever stop riots anywhere :sad: They seem to be popping up in so many places anymore :sad: :sad: I'm just waiting for it to happen here in the U.S. over the Stock Market Protesters.

buddyholly
11-27-2011, 09:36 PM
i was waiting for you. it only took you 18 min. not bad...

My new Mac comes with a warning siren when it detects the smell of sulphur.

GOAT = Fed
11-27-2011, 09:40 PM
I don't know if anything will ever stop riots anywhere :sad: They seem to be popping up in so many places anymore :sad: :sad: I'm just waiting for it to happen here in the U.S. over the Stock Market Protesters.

Maybe it is true. Rioting will probably not cease completely, but the numbers will dwindle if people know what the punishment for their crime is.

buddyholly
11-27-2011, 09:58 PM
I don't know if anything will ever stop riots anywhere :sad: They seem to be popping up in so many places anymore :sad: :sad: I'm just waiting for it to happen here in the U.S. over the Stock Market Protesters.

Occupy Toronto ended when the local residents demanded their park back and the occupiers couldn't decide what to do next.

Lopez
11-27-2011, 10:01 PM
:haha:


Please pardon me, Confucius.

In my own humble lack of understanding, I failed to recognize how a somewhat harsh penalty for theft was meaningfully reducible to "the rich screwing the poor."

I will meditate on this further until I achieve your wisdom.

Exactly.

Apart from the logic being awful, the ones whoe were screwed over in the riots were the honest business (usually small business) owners who lost a lot of their property in these riots orchestrated mostly by hooligans and organized criminals.

abraxas21
11-27-2011, 10:50 PM
A few days ago you were berating me for commenting on a Canadian case where an Afghan man and his son drowned the three girls in the family along with his other wife. (The girls liked nice clothes and talked to boys at school.) You said the press should not report this stuff, for some reason that escapes me other than that you must favour press censorship, so we would all end up reading Granma.
no, that's not the case and i explained my reasons in detail in that thread but that's another business. now onto the following:

Given that English justice sets the standard for the world,
if i were to replies with smilies, i'm not sure if my answer should be a :rolleyes: or simply a :lol:

what do you think?

I would think you would favour ignoring this small anomaly in favour of concentrating on the big picture.
like i said to certinfy: read the whole article. it's not just her case, it's the way the english courts have dealt with all of the people who have been involved or were involved in the riots.

so you see, this is about the big picture.

Apart from that, if I were to clutter the forum by starting a thread over every little thing I found worthy of criticism in the non-Western world, I would rightly be called a huge mug clown. Why don't you stick to important stuff, like dwarf tossing?
hahaha... in spite of your lack of an adequate political judgement, at least you still have some humour.

abraxas21
11-27-2011, 10:52 PM
My new Mac comes with a warning siren when it detects the smell of sulphur.

you seem to be quite proud of your new adquisition... this isn't the first time you say you talk about it

steve jobs would be proud

abraxas21
11-27-2011, 11:12 PM
Exactly.

Apart from the logic being awful, the ones whoe were screwed over in the riots were the honest business (usually small business) owners who lost a lot of their property in these riots orchestrated mostly by hooligans and organized criminals.

gee, talk about a simplified analysis

abraxas21
11-27-2011, 11:20 PM
Maybe it is true. Rioting will probably not cease completely, but the numbers will dwindle if people know what the punishment for their crime is.

harder sanctions will contain the revolution in the mean time but they won't be able to extinguish the unerlying causes behind it

buddyholly
11-27-2011, 11:23 PM
if i were to replies with smilies, i'm not sure if my answer should be a :rolleyes: or simply a :lol:

what do you think?






I read the whole article. That is where I saw her modelling ski gloves in August.

As for replying with smilies to my comment that English justice sets the standard for the world: I think maybe you should just give some examples of a superior system.

Topspindoctor
11-28-2011, 01:54 AM
what a sham. the rich have been screwing the poor classes for centuries and one harmless teenage girl robs a pair of shoes and gets 10 months in prison. the rich and the politicians are doing everything in their power to protect their system

Theft is theft. Whether it's someone stealing a few tomatoes from the local vegemarket or someone stealing half a dozen iPhone 4's from Dick Smith. Doesn't make it right. Just because the person who stole "less", but happened to get caught, doesn't mean we should stop punishing thieves.

Also, will you ever stop bitching? The rich are rich because they got off their ass and worked. I accept that I will never be rich because I am content to sit on my ass, recieve average salary and half ass my way through life and I accept it. People like you are self entitled and think "the rich are bringing them down" because you are a lazy piece of crap. Stop blaming everyone else and look at yourself.

shiaben
11-28-2011, 02:03 AM
There's no problem with the rich or even having wealth. But they should pay taxes like the rest of the working class. It would help the economies of their respective nations.

buddyholly
11-28-2011, 02:17 AM
There's no problem with the rich or even having wealth. But they should pay taxes like the rest of the working class. It would help the economies of their respective nations.

That's why they have elections.

But there is an argument against what you say anyway. Taxes paid to governments do not make wealth as much as jobs in private business does. If you go to the extreme of where Castro paid everybody $15/month and held back the rest in taxes, the result did not help the economy, it ruined it.

buddyholly
11-28-2011, 02:18 AM
harder sanctions will contain the revolution in the mean time but they won't be able to extinguish the unerlying causes behind it

Are you so disillusioned that you think a handful of rioting youths is a revolution?

star
11-28-2011, 02:33 AM
Theft is theft. Whether it's someone stealing a few tomatoes from the local vegemarket or someone stealing half a dozen iPhone 4's from Dick Smith. Doesn't make it right. Just because the person who stole "less", but happened to get caught, doesn't mean we should stop punishing thieves.

Also, will you ever stop bitching? The rich are rich because they got off their ass and worked. I accept that I will never be rich because I am content to sit on my ass, recieve average salary and half ass my way through life and I accept it. People like you are self entitled and think "the rich are bringing them down" because you are a lazy piece of crap. Stop blaming everyone else and look at yourself.

1. Theft is, of course, theft. However, the law differentiates the penalty for theft based on the amount stolen — at least that is the case in the United States and probably in most countries. The law recognizes that the theft of a tomato is a much lesser harm than is the theft of several thousand dollars . There is misdemeanor theft and felony theft. I think nearly everyone, excepting you evidently, recognizes that the punishment for Bernie Madoff should be greater than for someone stealing a tomato even if “theft is theft.

2. Rich people are usually rich because they inherited wealth from their relatives. That is the most usual way people have acquired wealth. There are some rich people who have worked themselves up from nothing, but they are the minority of wealthy people. There are, of course, others like Mitt Romney and Donald Trump who inherited wealth and then increased their wealth through their own efforts. Let us not delude ourselves that wealthy people have all worked hard for their wealth.

In reality, hard work does not lead to wealth. Many working class people work longer hours and at body crushing labor and never become rich or are even able to get medical insurance. And here I am only talking about western economies. I’m not talking about the millions and millions who toil from dawn to dusk to merely stave off starvation.

So please don’t even entertain the thought that people who do not have money are lazy. You have no idea what people go through to merely maintain their families at malnourished levels.

jmjhb
11-28-2011, 02:39 AM
Are you so disillusioned that you think a handful of rioting youths is a revolution?

It was hardly a handful.

StevoTG
11-28-2011, 02:39 AM
Figured some people here might find this to be interesting
cZ7LzE3u7Bw

rocketassist
11-28-2011, 02:52 AM
When Thatcher dies they'll be out into the streets again for a BBQ and a piss up.

buddyholly
11-28-2011, 04:48 AM
When Thatcher dies they'll be out into the streets again for a BBQ and a piss up.

With their fiddles no doubt.

abraxas21
11-28-2011, 04:57 AM
Theft is theft. Whether it's someone stealing a few tomatoes from the local vegemarket or someone stealing half a dozen iPhone 4's from Dick Smith. Doesn't make it right. Just because the person who stole "less", but happened to get caught, doesn't mean we should stop punishing thieves.

Also, will you ever stop bitching? The rich are rich because they got off their ass and worked. I accept that I will never be rich because I am content to sit on my ass, recieve average salary and half ass my way through life and I accept it. People like you are self entitled and think "the rich are bringing them down" because you are a lazy piece of crap. Stop blaming everyone else and look at yourself.

do you really believe all the crap you write?

Topspindoctor
11-28-2011, 04:59 AM
do you really believe all the crap you write?

Yes, I do. Quite frankly I am tired of your self-pity and the attitude that the world owes you something.

abraxas21
11-28-2011, 05:03 AM
this thread has made my day btw

seingeist, buddyholly and topspindctor --a fundamentalist Christian, a northern irish right-wing loyalist and a xenophobic bogan-- all uniting their forces in their political clowning. mother england would be proud

Getta
11-28-2011, 05:14 AM
don't tar all Brits, Aussies, Yanks (and Canucks?) with the same brush

abraxas21
11-28-2011, 05:16 AM
i know but deep down in my mind i cant help to blame england for their former colonies. i just can't help it...

Seingeist
11-28-2011, 07:23 AM
don't tar all Brits, Aussies, Yanks (and Canucks?) with the same brush

That would require at least some minute capacity to draw distinctions in one's thinking.

It is unfair of you to ask of abraxas that of which he is woefully incapable.

tripwires
11-28-2011, 07:23 AM
A few days ago you were berating me for commenting on a Canadian case where an Afghan man and his son drowned the three girls in the family along with his other wife. (The girls liked nice clothes and talked to boys at school.) You said the press should not report this stuff, for some reason that escapes me other than that you must favour press censorship, so we would all end up reading Granma.

Given that English justice sets the standard for the world, I would think you would favour ignoring this small anomaly in favour of concentrating on the big picture.

Apart from that, if I were to clutter the forum by starting a thread over every little thing I found worthy of criticism in the non-Western world, I would rightly be called a huge mug clown. Why don't you stick to important stuff, like dwarf tossing?

I used to think this was true until I read this article and was alarmed by how familiar the whole situation is. Familiar, that is, because it reminded me of my country's deeply flawed criminal justice system. I must say that I'm quite disappointed in how the English courts have handled these rioting cases.

I think the system is giving her a punishment for all the other people that were not caught which I think is wrong. One thing this harsh punishment might accomplish though is that it will deter people from stealing and they'll think twice before looting.

Sorry, I completely disagree with you. I've heard this deterrence BS from my country's judges throughout my years in law school and in my one year in private practice and it's the biggest load of crap that the establishment can ever say to justify overly harsh sentences in complex situations. The most extreme example which unfortunately happens on a regular basis in my country is imposing the death penalty on drug traffickers and saying that it will deter future drug traffickers from doing the same. If it's really that effective a deterrent sentence, why is it that my country is about to hang another drug trafficker from Malaysia, if he's not already been hanged?

Of course, a harsh penalty is justified in some cases; I'm sure that a lot of the hooligans in the English riots deserve whatever punishment that befalls them, if they happen to be caught. But I just don't see how any of the cases mentioned in the article deserve the punishment that has been meted out. This girl that stole the shoes for example - she sounds like a stupid kid to me. But does she deserve 10 freaking months in prison? Hell no. The whole point of a criminal justice system that purportedly values the principle of innocent until proven guilty is to protect the individual from unduly harsh punishment, among other things. The problem with deterrent sentences is that they fail to distinguish the deserving cases from the undeserving ones, and in the process, might not actually serve the ends of justice.

Anyway, I'm not attacking you; I just feel really strongly about this. I guess I've seen enough BS done to people who don't deserve it over here and I honestly always thought that it's only stupid conservative Asian countries that pull this kind of crap. So yeah, I'm quite disappointed to read this article; seems like the English courts aren't immune to knee-jerk reactions.

tripwires
11-28-2011, 07:25 AM
i know but deep down in my mind i cant help to blame england for their former colonies. i just can't help it...

:lol: I should probably despise the English but omg, I love the English accent. :hearts: (Not that there's actually such a thing but let's not bother too much with the specifics, ok?) I love English novelists like Julian Barnes. :hearts: I love London. :hearts:

buddyholly
11-28-2011, 02:42 PM
i know but deep down in my mind i cant help to blame england for their former colonies. i just can't help it...

Thank you for that vote of solidarity with the USA.

Lopez
11-28-2011, 04:14 PM
2. Rich people are usually rich because they inherited wealth from their relatives. That is the most usual way people have acquired wealth. There are some rich people who have worked themselves up from nothing, but they are the minority of wealthy people. There are, of course, others like Mitt Romney and Donald Trump who inherited wealth and then increased their wealth through their own efforts. Let us not delude ourselves that wealthy people have all worked hard for their wealth.


There is a lot inherited wealth sure but some people are able to make their own fortune.

What's paradoxical mostly about high taxation policies that they actually make it more difficult to get rich by any other means than inheriting. With moderate taxation, even middle income families can create quite the nest egg by smart investing.

What I require from a society is that everyone is given the same chance, i.e. access too free, quality education, healthcare etc. After that, working should be encouraged by as low tax rates as possible.

Low taxation also brings a lot of jobs to the economy because it increases GDP and investments.

Henry Chinaski
11-28-2011, 06:54 PM
this thread has made my day btw

seingeist, buddyholly and topspindctor --a fundamentalist Christian, a northern irish right-wing loyalist and a xenophobic bogan-- all uniting their forces in their political clowning. mother england would be proud

too big

rocketassist
11-28-2011, 07:57 PM
Yeah the rich got rich cause they all worked hard so when the son of Lord Toff becomes a Toff himself, we can celebrate the mountain he climbed to get there.

:haha:

EddceLLent
11-28-2011, 08:38 PM
harder sanctions will contain the revolution in the mean time but they won't be able to extinguish the unerlying causes behind it

Lol at you spunking your pants at the thought of a revolution. Talk of a revolution is absolute nonsense.

There's no problem with the rich or even having wealth. But they should pay taxes like the rest of the working class. It would help the economies of their respective nations.

Most of them do, and we wouldn't be able to provide safety nets for the poor without their contributions.

2. Rich people are usually rich because they inherited wealth from their relatives. That is the most usual way people have acquired wealth.

Is this based on any kind of evidence or is it just you making the assumption?

In reality, hard work does not lead to wealth. Many working class people work longer hours and at body crushing labor and never become rich or are even able to get medical insurance. And here I am only talking about western economies. Iím not talking about the millions and millions who toil from dawn to dusk to merely stave off starvation.

So please donít even entertain the thought that people who do not have money are lazy. You have no idea what people go through to merely maintain their families at malnourished levels.

You're right here - hard work doesn't automatically lead to wealth. Wages are based on the availability of labour to perform a certain role, if there's not many people who can do a certain job then it'll pay better.

In a sense I agree with your assertion that it's wrong to call poor people lazy - because they're mostly not. I don't think the poster you were replying to was really saying that though, I think he was referring specifically to the guy who started the thread. (btw I assume everyone is male, sorry idk your genders)

like i said to certinfy: read the whole article. it's not just her case, it's the way the english courts have dealt with all of the people who have been involved or were involved in the riots.

The courts have the power to give sentences as a deterrent. I, as a law abiding citizen of the UK, am happy to see that they've done so here. There's a duty to protect the law abiding majority of the country, and so it needs to be made abundantly clear that we will not allow the kind of behaviour that we saw during the riots. It was made absolutely clear before the riots became widespread that it'd be dealt with severely, and so anyone that took part has only him or herself to blame now that they're having to face the consequences of their actions.

Who are people kidding anyway???? This wasn't a revolt against the rich...look at the victims of the rioting - the ordinary citizens whose homes were burned to the ground, the small business owners who lost everything that they'd worked for, the emergency services that came under attack in the course of trying to protect us. It's outrageous. What annoys me even more is that some people with a left wing agenda started to make noises about inequality, thus giving the rioters a shred of an excuse for their actions. They might say now that it's a protest against the rich, but you can bet that was never on their mind when they were busy stealing trainers and electrical goods FOR THEMSELVES, exhibiting the very greed that any anti-capitalist protestor would espouse as being the source of such evil.

Before people harp on about inequality why don't they think about the people in countries where there are no safety nets, where the poor rely on only their own ingenuity to avoid starving to death. The reason that we, except for a very small number of isolated cases, don't have that in the UK is because of capitalism - enabling us to use our resources effectively in order to allow everyone the opportunity to have an acceptable standard of living.

Capitalism does result in inequalities - there's no doubt about that - but that's not the argument - the question we need to ask ourselves is what other system could we use to allocate resources more effectively? The truth is there is no better system that's proven to work as well in achieving the best standard of living possible for as many people as possible. Without capitalism there would be little opportunity for redistribution of wealth because there'd be comparatively so little of it to redistribute. So hows about we stop to think about those who are truly needy before we start denigrating the very system that means we're lucky enough to not be going hungry.

Lopez
11-28-2011, 08:58 PM
Yeah the rich got rich cause they all worked hard so when the son of Lord Toff becomes a Toff himself, we can celebrate the mountain he climbed to get there.

:haha:

Either they themselves worked hard or someone in their family :shrug:. You're saying Bill Gates, Steve Jobs or Mark Zuckerberg didn't work hard?

Fact is, success is based on hard work, there are a lot of studies about it... Businessmen hone their craft as well.

It's time people stop being jealous and start being productive.

rocketassist
11-28-2011, 10:44 PM
Either they themselves worked hard or someone in their family :shrug:. You're saying Bill Gates, Steve Jobs or Mark Zuckerberg didn't work hard?

Fact is, success is based on hard work, there are a lot of studies about it... Businessmen hone their craft as well.

It's time people stop being jealous and start being productive.

Did the Royal Family work hard to be rich? I suppose William the Conqueror 'earned' the throne at Hastings, did he not?

Sofonda Cox
11-28-2011, 10:46 PM
Did the Royal Family work hard to be rich?

All those countries didn't invade themselves.

Lopez
11-28-2011, 10:52 PM
Did the Royal Family work hard to be rich? I suppose William the Conqueror 'earned' the throne at Hastings, did he not?

Yes because all rich people have been kings :rolleyes:

Isn't it better to actually try to create the possibilities for yourself than complain about it? Fact is, a lot of rich people create their own fortune and that's what I aim to do as well.

Naturally I'm working under the assumption that a country has the things organized which I mentioned (education, health etc.).

abraxas21
12-16-2012, 04:15 AM
Lol at you spunking your pants at the thought of a revolution. Talk of a revolution is absolute nonsense.

apples and oranges, i know, but when the english courts where condemning youngters to 10+ month sentences over stealing sneakers, in iceland they were planning the way for a new constitution, a more democratic one, after the corrupt former leaders of the country were put in prison due to the people taking a stand against the abusive forces of today's capitalism.

sooner or later, many other countries will follow iceland's path and they won't be revolutions (like in iceland, the system won't be totally replaced) but they certainly help the course of democracy and the cleaning up of the political machinery.

rocketassist
12-16-2012, 04:33 AM
Yes because all rich people have been kings :rolleyes:

Isn't it better to actually try to create the possibilities for yourself than complain about it? Fact is, a lot of rich people create their own fortune and that's what I aim to do as well.

Naturally I'm working under the assumption that a country has the things organized which I mentioned (education, health etc.).

Because everyone's talented enough to run a business :rolls:

The ConDems lie about the NHS cuts. Under this appalling government, the NHS will be screwed if they somehow fluked a second term (or if the Tories won the next election)- neither are happening.

buddyholly
12-16-2012, 04:44 AM
apples and oranges, i know, but when the english courts where condemning youngters to 10+ month sentences over stealing sneakers, in iceland they were planning the way for a new constitution, a more democratic one, after the corrupt former leaders of the country were put in prison due to the people taking a stand against the abusive forces of today's capitalism.

sooner or later, many other countries will follow iceland's path and they won't be revolutions (like in iceland, the system won't be totally replaced) but they certainly help the course of democracy and the cleaning up of the political machinery.

Sometimes I wonder if you have any connection to reality at all.

FACT: In a global corruption index, the western countries are clearly separated from the rest of the world. The correlation is almost perfect: western capitalist system = least corrupt societies.

Iceland is one of the least corrupt countries in the world - ahead of every single Latin American country. What made news was that there was actually some corruption in Iceland. But compared to every non western country, it was insignificant. If you want to see corruption-free countries, the Western capitalist model has been proved 100% to be the route to take. Just the facts.

abraxas21
12-16-2012, 07:43 PM
FACT: In a global corruption index, the western countries are clearly separated from the rest of the world. The correlation is almost perfect: western capitalist system = least corrupt societies.

:lol: keep believing in the indexes of people's perceptions about their countries' corruption levels. in nations in which the media is inevitably tied to commercial interests, the general public is only gonna get access to certain things.

Iceland is one of the least corrupt countries in the world - ahead of every single Latin American country. What made news was that there was actually some corruption in Iceland.

some? No, sir. "Some corruption" doesn't account for the results that happened. No sure why you have to add Latin America to the mix but let me tell you, my country, easily one of the most capitalist of the region, also fairs well in corruption indexes and I know it's BS. Corruption might not happen much at a small citizen-cop or citizen-gvt level, but it's completely institutionalized at at big business-state level. Most of our legislators and top gvt official are riddled with commercial conflicts of interest. Most people are of course unaware (thanks again, free press), hence why we fare relatively well in those so called indexes.

But compared to every non western country, it was insignificant. If you want to see corruption-free countries, the Western capitalist model has been proved 100% to be the route to take. Just the facts.

right.

Sometimes I wonder if you have any connection to reality at all.

no mirrors in your house, it seems...

buddyholly
12-19-2012, 03:58 PM
:lol: keep believing in the indexes of people's perceptions about their countries' corruption levels. in nations in which the media is inevitably tied to commercial interests, the general public is only gonna get access to certain things.


Most people are of course unaware (thanks again, free press), hence why we fare relatively well in those so called indexes.




Who ever said it was ''people's perceptions''?

You are so lucky to be so different and unique as to be not one of the general public. But then, that is not the ''people's perception'', just your own.

But at least the answer you came up with to my statement that the path to least corruption has been overwhelmingly shown to be the western economic model is ''right.''
Not much else you could say, actually.

buddyholly
12-19-2012, 04:03 PM
my country, easily one of the most capitalist of the region, also fairs well in corruption indexes and I know it's BS. Corruption might not happen much at a small citizen-cop or citizen-gvt level, but it's completely institutionalized at at big business-state level. Most of our legislators and top gvt official are riddled with commercial conflicts of interest. Most people are of course unaware (thanks again, free press), hence why we fare relatively well in those so called indexes.





Maybe you haven't woken up to the fact that even though your country is capitalist and has a lot of corruption, RELATIVE to surrounding states that are more socialist, Chile is the LEAST corrupt.

But of course, you once again fall back on your standby answer that nobody knows the truth but yourself. Self delusion is your forte.

abraxas21
12-21-2012, 02:55 PM
Who ever said it was ''people's perceptions''?

what are they based on then? Independent studies from independent organizations? :lol:

But at least the answer you came up with to my statement that the path to least corruption has been overwhelmingly shown to be the western economic model is ''right.''
Not much else you could say, actually.

not sure how you got to that conclusion, but whatever floats your boat, i guess.

buddyholly
12-22-2012, 11:32 AM
what are they based on then? Independent studies from independent organizations? :lol:



not sure how you got to that conclusion, but whatever floats your boat, i guess.
Right wing studies from right wing organizations. Isn't everything you don'l like automatically sourced to western imperialist lies?

It was your conclusion, I thought.

abraxas21
12-26-2012, 01:32 PM
not really my conclusion

but the western economic model is kind of a vague term. for starters, i'd much prefer iceland over england or canada over the USA. i'm not really anti western as many times you and others have labeled me. i simply advocate for democracy (the truly inclusive and participative one), respect for human rights, respect of other countries' internal affairs, social assistance to those in need and freedom. then again, this wasn't about me...

buddyholly
12-26-2012, 10:25 PM
i simply advocate for democracy (the truly inclusive and participative one), respect for human rights, respect of other countries' internal affairs, social assistance to those in need and freedom. then again, this wasn't about me...
Sounds like Canada to me.

You can't really compare Iceland to the USA or England. It is a very small country and does not have the problems of larger more open countries.
When you talk of social assistance to those in need and freedom, what does Iceland do for foreign aid? What does Iceland do to help people from oppressed countries in the way of immigration? It is Canada and the US that lead the world in that respect.

abraxas21
12-26-2012, 11:26 PM
When you talk of social assistance to those in need and freedom, what does Iceland do for foreign aid? What does Iceland do to help people from oppressed countries in the way of immigration? It is Canada and the US that lead the world in that respect.

i don't care much for foreign aid. countries should be left to develop on their own. as things stand today, most of the foreign aid does more harm than good (mostly because it's badly intended, though).

what i mean with social assistance to those in need is to help the ones within their own country.