French Open 2011 QF: Nadal packs off Soderling 6-4, 6-1, 7-6 [Archive] - Page 2 - MensTennisForums.com

French Open 2011 QF: Nadal packs off Soderling 6-4, 6-1, 7-6

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Nidhogg
06-02-2011, 09:03 AM
People will always insist Rafa acts for the benefit of others, but they miss the point, he acts mostly for his own nerves. Like taking it slow while serving, many will insist it's some form of gamesmanship done on purpose to disrupt his opponents, while in fact he does it mainly to prop up his own concentration.

His intentions behind it are completely irrelevant. It doesn't make it any less disruptive, and he knows perfectly well that very few umpires would ever even give him a warning. I was glad to see Robin call him on it yesterday at 5-5 in the third, even though he couldn't break. As soon as Nadal went down 15-40 he took between 35-40 seconds to serve.

gaitare
06-02-2011, 09:07 AM
Can you read English? I suggest learning it first before ever attempting Spanish, thank you. What peribsen says and what you interpret are worlds appart.


http://www.tennisforum.com/images/smilies/oh.gif, so argumentative. Qualify what he says (or means) then if you're so happy to defend him.

Mungo
06-02-2011, 09:07 AM
fedtardgrandslam: it sucks that Nadal is playing so well again. he will crush murray and he has a good shot at the title. i am scared but trying to stay optimistic that he will lose.

BodyServe
06-02-2011, 09:22 AM
Too good. Robin would have needed his first serve firing way earlier to make a match out of this, but hey, he lived up to his seeding at a slam yet again. Good show in the third set. I always enjoy watching him play against Nadal on this type of clay with his monster shots.

Onward and upward for the evergreen fluke. :sport:

It never fired, % went up because he took the pace off, he barely hit any serve winners.

kindablue
06-02-2011, 09:32 AM
Rafzilla is back !!! Just give him the title already !!!

Rafa#Uno:-)
06-02-2011, 12:02 PM
if the wind is an factor then learn how to serve in the wind

rafa better than before in the tournament
confidence in sports is fresh thing

Rafa#Uno:-)
06-02-2011, 12:04 PM
I think he isn't playing with his opponents as much as with himself. I think he was being frank. He really felt in dire straits and had to pull his act together, and the first step is realism about his own game.

People will always insist Rafa acts for the benefit of others, but they miss the point, he acts mostly for his own nerves. Like taking it slow while serving, many will insist it's some form of gamesmanship done on purpose to disrupt his opponents, while in fact he does it mainly to prop up his own concentration.

this

Rafa#Uno:-)
06-02-2011, 12:09 PM
(^ Rafa showed how his forehand down the line is in lethal form. So you will see that vs Murray. Rafa didn't want to overuse that shot vs Soderling because the tactic vs Soderling is to keep errors to an absolute minimum, so don't attack too much. Defense was the key to beating Soderling in 2010 RG Final. You will never see Rafa consistently attack Soderling, because that's the wrong tactic. Why should you take risks when you will beat Soderling in 3 sets by playing defensive? Soderling is always going to hand Rafa cheap points via unforced errors, because Soderling sucks at maintaining consistency, so why should Rafa give Soderling cheap points by attacking? Take advantage of Soderling's inconsistency. This is how Rafa has recently owned Tsonga and Cilic too. Never attack when you don't have to, just work the point and keep it deep [but not deep every ball, vary it occasionally to keep them off-balance and thinking], and Rafa did keep it deep vs Soderling, varied it when required, and won in 3 as expected. I predicted 6-4 6-2 6-4, and it almost was that, I underestimated Rafa in the 2nd set which he won 6-1 and Rafa would have been up 2 breaks in the 3rd set if not for an umpire mistake so the tie-breaker shouldn't have occurred)

this is wise and correct

MaxPower
06-02-2011, 12:22 PM
if the wind is an factor then learn how to serve in the wind

rafa better than before in the tournament
confidence in sports is fresh thing

Not that simple.

Soderling grew up playing indoors in cold Sweden. His boll toss on the serve is so high that it almost reaches the level of a moonball. He also plays inches from the lines. Put some wind on it and shots that would be perfect are 2-3 inches out instead. Loop topspin FH middle court and who cares. Wind only makes them harder to hit and they aren't placed close to lines anyway

And do you really think players at this stage in their career and as a 26 year old can change their entire service motion? Why isn't Federer switching to a 2H BH then? Then his H2H vs Rafa would be in his favor.

Rafa#Uno:-)
06-02-2011, 12:34 PM
Not that simple.

Soderling grew up playing indoors in cold Sweden. His boll toss on the serve is so high that it almost reaches the level of a moonball. He also plays inches from the lines. Put some wind on it and shots that would be perfect are 2-3 inches out instead. Loop topspin FH middle court and who cares. Wind only makes them harder to hit and they aren't placed close to lines anyway

And do you really think players at this stage in their career and as a 26 year old can change their entire service motion? Why isn't Federer switching to a 2H BH then? Then his H2H vs Rafa would be in his favor.


ok then dont learn and loose haha:worship:
players on the highest level have to deal with improvements right?

players with a stiff wrist cant play in wind
say enqvist thats interesting I find.

when its coming to bh I think one handed is matching some players better some worse.

Rafa owns soder on clay even if its not windy though.

FlameOn
06-02-2011, 01:17 PM
Nadal j packs off Soderling? :scared:

BodyServe
06-02-2011, 01:25 PM
Not that simple.

Soderling grew up playing indoors in cold Sweden. His boll toss on the serve is so high that it almost reaches the level of a moonball. He also plays inches from the lines. Put some wind on it and shots that would be perfect are 2-3 inches out instead. Loop topspin FH middle court and who cares. Wind only makes them harder to hit and they aren't placed close to lines anyway

And do you really think players at this stage in their career and as a 26 year old can change their entire service motion? Why isn't Federer switching to a 2H BH then? Then his H2H vs Rafa would be in his favor.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

That means it really is a high ball toss.

Alcibiades
06-02-2011, 02:18 PM
Have to say,this performance,and the tendency of Nadal to raise his game as the GS progresses(we've seen it many times before),makes me think he is favourite to win now,and is the player to beat,Novak's streak and 4 wins vs Nadal nothwistanding.It will be extremelly hard for any of the other 3 to beat him.

peribsen
06-02-2011, 03:37 PM
You telling me that he's in a vacuum and by "propping up his own concentration" he doesn't disrupt his opponents? For Christ's sake, do you think I am an idiot? Just accept he's doing this for his own good and his shenanigans lead to his opponent's obvious disadvantage. It's called vasos comunicantes.

You've probably been seeing quite a few matches involving Nadal these last few years. What's the first thing that strikes you about his attitude? The perfectly ordered water bottles, the fact he never ever steps on a line when walking through the court, the fact he always changes his rackett after every 8th game -no matter if he's playing well or bad-, the way he gets ready for each of his serves exactly in the same way (combing his hair over one ear, then the other)... ritual ritual, ritual...

One doesn't need a degree in psychology to know an obsessive personality when it manifests itself so openly and in broad daylight. Nor does anybody with a bit of imagination need it to understand that all obsessive personalities look inwards much more than they look outwards. Rafa obviously knows that his antiques may rattle his opponents and that this isn't going to hurt his chances, but he doesn't behave this way with that in mind, his behaviour is meant for controlling his nerves. He is performing a ritual to preserve his own concentration, much, much more than following a plan meant for upsetting others. Obsessive minds work that way.

One may not like it, but when people think it all boils down to sheer gamesmanship, I can't avoid thinking just how blind they are to miss out all the evidence that is staring at their faces. Next time you meet somebody who always takes too long leaving his house because he has to doublecheck whether he's put out all the lights, taken the car keys, put out a cigarette or whatever, you'd do well in remembering that maybe you aren't forced to be his friend, but that no, he isn't doing it just to peeve you.

MaxPower
06-02-2011, 03:48 PM
So you mean OCD is an excuse to average 30 sec between serves when 20 second is the allowed? Rules apply even if you are a hopeless OCD case. He is delaying the game with his antics and it's not ok. It's the same thing as cheating just that everyone is so used to it now he isn't called out for it.

Lets look at Nadal. He plays with the left-hand but is right-handed. He was obviously forced to play with the left for an advantage. He just happens to be the worst OCD symptoms in the tennis world too? Is it a coincidence that all these racket switching, pants adjusting, water bottle adjusting and more also happens to benefit his game (because he needs more rest with all the running) and throw off opponents (because on important points they'd rather play than watch him adjust his pants)? No it is obviously deliberate from early career just like playing with his left hand is. If everyone did the same on the tour tennis would lose all fans. Imagine matches with Nadal playing Nadal. Match can't even start because he wants to go on the court last....

peribsen
06-02-2011, 04:44 PM
So you mean OCD is an excuse to average 30 sec between serves when 20 second is the allowed? Rules apply even if you are a hopeless OCD case. He is delaying the game with his antics and it's not ok. It's the same thing as cheating just that everyone is so used to it now he isn't called out for it.

Lets look at Nadal. He plays with the left-hand but is right-handed. He was obviously forced to play with the left for an advantage. He just happens to be the worst OCD symptoms in the tennis world too? Is it a coincidence that all these racket switching, pants adjusting, water bottle adjusting and more also happens to benefit his game (because he needs more rest with all the running) and throw off opponents (because on important points they'd rather play than watch him adjust his pants)? No it is obviously deliberate from early career just like playing with his left hand is. If everyone did the same on the tour tennis would lose all fans. Imagine matches with Nadal playing Nadal. Match can't even start because he wants to go on the court last....

OCD is not the same thing as an obsessive personality, the same way an excentric is not at all the same as a schizophrenic. People with true OCD can't achieve much in a sport like tennis, where you have to quickly forget you just double-faulted and keep on trying without letting it rattle you. A guy with OCD would be permanently playing out in his mind the game before last. He'd get nowhere.

You insist in explaining Rafa's behaviour in a way that simply renounces to adress all the evidence that stares at your face. You don't like it, so it all must be about gamesmanship, game playing and hypocresy. The fact that his family have been trying to get him to stop tugging at his undies since he was about 6 years old (it has nothing to do with his actual underwear, it's a tick, the same way some people simply can't avoid stroking their cheeks when excited) simply has nothing to do with his personality, according to you.

Rituals, rituals and yet more rituals. Yet his tennis game is so very good that no one has been able to keep him from booking a place for himself among the all-time tennis greats. And some will never forgive him for it.

Filo V.
06-02-2011, 04:48 PM
Nadal j packs off Soderling? :scared:I think they meant to say packs in Soderling.

MalwareDie
06-02-2011, 04:50 PM
It never fired, % went up because he took the pace off, he barely hit any serve winners.

This.

MaxPower
06-02-2011, 05:30 PM
OCD is not the same thing as an obsessive personality, the same way an excentric is not at all the same as a schizophrenic. People with true OCD can't achieve much in a sport like tennis, where you have to quickly forget you just double-faulted and keep on trying without letting it rattle you. A guy with OCD would be permanently playing out in his mind the game before last. He'd get nowhere.

You insist in explaining Rafa's behaviour in a way that simply renounces to adress all the evidence that stares at your face. You don't like it, so it all must be about gamesmanship, game playing and hypocresy. The fact that his family have been trying to get him to stop tugging at his undies since he was about 6 years old (it has nothing to do with his actual underwear, it's a tick, the same way some people simply can't avoid stroking their cheeks when excited) simply has nothing to do with his personality, according to you.

Rituals, rituals and yet more rituals. Yet his tennis game is so very good that no one has been able to keep him from booking a place for himself among the all-time tennis greats. And some will never forgive him for it.

And the point is? I don't care about his childhood or personality. The reason behind isn't that relevant unless you want to write his biography. The fact is that he does it. Another fact is that if every player on the tour had as extensive rituals as Rafa tennis would be unbearable. People can dislike him for it and they have all right to do that and we all know that it annoys the crap out of both some viewers and some players.

It's the same argument as people shouldn't be upset about theft if the person doing it is poor. It's an explanation behind the act but it doesn't justify it. Rafa got a nice personality and is also nr1 so of course he gets away with some things. He would lose many matches if he was forced to play in the same tempo as the opponent. He knows that himself, most of his rational fans knows it, other players fans know it. Even his fans must make a difference between hating him for the way he plays his game which many people find disgusting, and hating him as a person. I'm pretty sure few people dislike him as a person but many people (including me) dislike his way of playing tennis and the way he acts on the tennis court. Outside the tennis court I dont follow Rafa and honestly I don't care about him outside the court

peribsen
06-02-2011, 05:52 PM
And the point is?

That many here jump to the conclusion that he is a cunning cheater, while it may all boil down to something quite different. That doesn't mean you have to either like or accept it, it just means you should consider the possibility of being mistaken in your personal judgements.

He would lose many matches if he was forced to play in the same tempo as the opponent.

With that I guess you mean that other players are forced to beware of their watches, because this particular rule is so very often and ruthlessly applied to all players but Rafa.... Question: have you ever seen anything worse than a warning for this offence on any main tournament?

You see, what bugs me is not so much the argument itself as the double or triple standards that many (I'm not sure if that includes you, to be fair) apply in everything related with Rafa. Like constantly harping that Nadal cheats because sometimes he has exchanged words with his team, yet failing to even notice the same thing (sometimes rather more blatant) when Nole, Soderling or others do it. Or refusing to accept he may in fact be injured, even if he keeps out of tournaments where he was the reigning champion. Or persistently bashing him for winning matches with the rather lame argument that 'he shouldn't have' (sic). Or trying to pin down on him the blame for trends that had been going on for years before he came around (like the demise of carpet or the slowing down of grasscourts or 3-set finals in MS) or that affect every single player on the tour (like new strings).

Anything, except acknowledge that he is one hell of a tennis player, whether one likes his game or not.

Commander Data
06-02-2011, 06:27 PM
Imagine matches with Nadal playing Nadal. Match can't even start because he wants to go on the court last....

:haha:

Start da Game
06-02-2011, 07:25 PM
So you mean OCD is an excuse to average 30 sec between serves when 20 second is the allowed? Rules apply even if you are a hopeless OCD case. He is delaying the game with his antics and it's not ok. It's the same thing as cheating just that everyone is so used to it now he isn't called out for it.

Lets look at Nadal. He plays with the left-hand but is right-handed. He was obviously forced to play with the left for an advantage. He just happens to be the worst OCD symptoms in the tennis world too? Is it a coincidence that all these racket switching, pants adjusting, water bottle adjusting and more also happens to benefit his game (because he needs more rest with all the running) and throw off opponents (because on important points they'd rather play than watch him adjust his pants)? No it is obviously deliberate from early career just like playing with his left hand is. If everyone did the same on the tour tennis would lose all fans. Imagine matches with Nadal playing Nadal. Match can't even start because he wants to go on the court last....

is that all you toad fans are left with now? oozing bitterness.......what's more worse is bitching your own player for being demolished at the hands of the greatest clay artist.......

MaxPower
06-02-2011, 07:41 PM
That many here jump to the conclusion that he is a cunning cheater, while it may all boil down to something quite different. That doesn't mean you have to either like or accept it, it just means you should consider the possibility of being mistaken in your personal judgements.

If I watch soccer and see a player falling down all the time I can think some things. Maybe he just got awful balance. Maybe he embellishes. Maybe he is forced by his coach to try to draw free kicks/penalties. I will dislike it no matter what. Even worse if that actually leads to a dangerous free kick penalty shot. It's how it works. I'm not gonna think "ohh Rafa is a nice guy so it's ok that he takes way more time between his serves when Soderling has 2 BP in the end of the set, after all he took 1 min between every serve when he was 6 years old too etc"


You see, what bugs me is not so much the argument itself as the double or triple standards that many apply in everything related with Rafa.
Agree but he is also the world nr1 and the most visible of the "worst offenders" so to speak.
When he broke through he already had his style and that was the time to act but there was no action. Federer for example called Rafa out on it in a very diplomatic way. Soderling called him out on it too in a not so diplomatic way. Response is pretty much "Umpires deal with such issues" so stay away from it. But yet they do nothing about it.

The consequence when you don't deal with something is that others start to. Then the window to do something is forever gone. If they tomorrow said "ohh lookie here, we found this rule we have forgotten for 6 years = now first offense is warning, second point penalty" Just looking at the average serve times from US Open 2010 they would have to do 50 point deductions to Rafa for example per match if he didn't change. The umpire can't do that!


Question: have you ever seen anything worse than a warning for this offence on any main tournament? It is impossible to do anything at this stage as explained above. Even Rafa himself would likely be shocked if a Ref suddenly gave him a warning and wonder if the ref was against him. "I have been doing this for 6 years, no?"




Like constantly harping that Nadal cheats because sometimes he has exchanged words with his team, yet failing to even notice the same thing (sometimes rather more blatant) when Nole, Soderling or others do it.
That problem was even more blatant in WTA and was dealt with even if there is still some controversy there. In the ATP it has never been a big issue afaik. Never seen Soderling called out on it. Nole I've seen called out on people in his box being unsportsmanlike. But even then it would be things that happen like one match. Not every freaking game in every match


Or refusing to accept he may in fact be injured, even if he keeps out of tournaments where he was the reigning champion. Or persistently bashing him for winning matches with the rather lame argument that 'he shouldn't have' (sic).
About Rafa and injuries people just need to use their eyes. Don't come and say that an injured man runs like Rafa does in some of his more famous "injured" matches. Then he might play with some pain but so does pretty much every tennis player. Sometimes you take a shot at playing with a smaller injury and have to work so hard that you get injured for real. Happens all the time too. If you are injured before a match you can retire. If you play injured but still ignore it and play as normal then you might get an even worse injury and be unable to play for months. Fine. Then the player and his doctor were stupid. Still no excuse for a loss


Or trying to pin down on him the blame for trends that had been going on for years before he came around (like the demise of carpet or the slowing down of grasscourts or 3-set finals in MS) or that affect every single player on the tour (like new strings).
Federer was dominating in a way players can only dream of. Federer was simply cleaning the field in the grass and hc part of the season. The world of tennis needed to stop Federer not boost Rafa. So yes you are right about this. It was more about stopping Federer from winning everything all the time than help Rafa. Rafa might have gotten the most help out of it but not his fault. New strings I have never heard anyone complain about. That benefits all the baseline players greatly. And to be fair almost all modern players spend most of the match at the baseline.


Anything, except acknowledge that he is one hell of a tennis player, whether one likes his game or not.
Saying you dislike him isn't the same thing as not acknowledging his achievements. He got his wins no matter what anyone say about him. But yeah that is also the most common defense for any Rafa criticism of how he plays tennis. Yeah but he got 9 slams, he got this H2H etc...