Strategy Against Nadal : The Wide Crosscourt Backhand, can Federer execute it? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Strategy Against Nadal : The Wide Crosscourt Backhand, can Federer execute it?

Imaster
05-24-2011, 04:08 AM
Whenever Federer get high balls to his backhand (courtesy Nadal, etc), I hardly see Federer being able to hit the wide crosscourt backhand consistently. His comfort shot in this case lands somewhere in the middle of the court, as in such rallies, the down-the-line (over the high part of the net) or a wide crosscourt do not seem to be his comfort shots. I am not saying Federer lacks this shot, he played this shot amazingly well in the WTF final against Nadal, but those were few and far in between. It was not Federer's Go-To shot!

Compare that to a Djokovic/Murray/Nalbandian/Davydenko, who are able to keep Nadal much more honest, as Nadal always has to keep an eye for that wide crosscourt backhand. Against Nadal, a wide crosscourt pushes Nadal completely towards his forehand side, which then opens up the court on Nadals backhand side.

Against Federer, Nadal comfortably runs around most of his backhands, since he knows he can lean on that side much more. You can almost see in all the recent Djokovic matches, Nadal is almost standing in the middle of the court, whereas if you see any of his matches against Federer, you would see that his default position is halfway to his deuce court, ready to run around his backhand.

Is it difficult for a player with a one-handed backhand to hit that shot effectively? But then you see a Gasquet or a Wawrinka pulling that shot quite consistently. Even against Lopez today, you could see that Federer was hardly able to rip any wide cc backhands, whereas Lopez was doing that consistently, making Federer run to his Forehand side.

Federer has added a few shots in the past to his arsenal (for regular use in match play), like his Drop Shots, then the wide-serve to Nadals backhand on the Deuce court, do you think this is the shot we would see him using more often, and more consistently?

tests
05-24-2011, 04:15 AM
Whenever Federer get high balls to his backhand (courtesy Nadal, etc), I hardly see Federer being able to hit the wide crosscourt backhand consistently. His comfort shot in this case lands somewhere in the middle of the court, as in such rallies, the down-the-line (over the high part of the net) or a wide crosscourt do not seem to be his comfort shots. I am not saying Federer lacks this shot, he played this shot amazingly well in the WTF final against Nadal, but those were few and far in between. It was not Federer's Go-To shot!

Compare that to a Djokovic/Murray/Nalbandian/Davydenko, who are able to keep Nadal much more honest, as Nadal always has to keep an eye for that wide crosscourt backhand. Against Nadal, a wide crosscourt pushes Nadal completely towards his forehand side, which then opens up the court on Nadals backhand side.

Against Federer, Nadal comfortably runs around most of his backhands, since he knows he can lean on that side much more. You can almost see in all the recent Djokovic matches, Nadal is almost standing in the middle of the court, whereas if you see any of his matches against Federer, you would see that his default position is halfway to his deuce court, ready to run around his backhand.

Is it difficult for a player with a one-handed backhand to hit that shot effectively? But then you see a Gasquet or a Wawrinka pulling that shot quite consistently. Even against Lopez today, you could see that Federer was hardly able to rip any wide cc backhands, whereas Lopez was doing that consistently, making Federer run to his Forehand side.

Federer has added a few shots in the past to his arsenal (for regular use in match play), like his Drop Shots, then the wide-serve to Nadals backhand on the Deuce court, do you think this is the shot we would see him using more often, and more consistently?

i dont think he has the shoulder strenght to execute that shot more often than not

Beforehand
05-24-2011, 04:25 AM
He's really comfortable hitting that shot off of a low bounce, but I mean, the reason the clay and Nadal problems have been what they are, and I guess anyone else who can pin him consistently on the backhand wing with spin is that he isn't going to be hitting that shot as consistently from uncomfortably high up.

tests
05-24-2011, 04:30 AM
He's really comfortable hitting that shot off of a low bounce, but I mean, the reason the clay and Nadal problems have been what they are, and I guess anyone else who can pin him consistently on the backhand wing with spin is that he isn't going to be hitting that shot as consistently from uncomfortably high up.


he just does not have the upper body strenght thats why

paseo
05-24-2011, 04:37 AM
mtiwL0sokiM

Farenhajt
05-24-2011, 05:06 AM
WTF with these whiner threads now when Federer is run over by BOTH Djokovic and Nadal, and has become yesterday's news in a blink of an eye? Grow up, Fedtards, and either be decent in your mourning (if you've truly respected Fed's legacy) or find another wagon to jump to (if you're a fangirl/bandwagoner).

Re: the subject, he had more than ample opportunities to show if he can or can't do it. Conclusion: he can't.

Rafa#Uno:-)
05-24-2011, 05:15 AM
ok Smarty how to beat Djokovic then???
What more is possible?
He needs to slice the ball to Djoko but uncle toni doesnt say that.

But overall its a mental thing. Rafa is tight and too nervous against Djoko Tennis is a lot of a mental game.
If you think your opponent is better like rafa starts to do now he will loose. Sad but true.

MTwEeZi
05-24-2011, 05:41 AM
no

tnosugar
05-24-2011, 08:23 AM
mtiwL0sokiM

nice!

I mean, it's common knowledge by now, but a nice way to present it. Will check more out from this guy... tnx.

dodo
05-24-2011, 08:28 AM
he executed it well enough at the WTF.
on clay and other high bounce surfaces? no.

MaxPower
05-24-2011, 08:37 AM
Look no further than Djokovic's wins this season or Soderling's win in RG 2009. You need a BH that's strong up high vs Nadal on a high bouncing surface. Fed got the technique but he lacks the upper body strength. Don't think Federer can hit the gym and correct that. It would hurt other parts of his game

madmax
05-24-2011, 08:47 AM
he just does not have the upper body strenght thats why

this...Fed is a finesse elegant player, not a brute force like Nadull. And on clay you have to use your brute force to overpower other players - there's no other way arround it

JolánGagó
05-24-2011, 09:30 AM
After a decade long career, do you have to ask this now? A random nematode would know the answer is NO.

Corey Feldman
05-24-2011, 09:32 AM
has Fed not beat Nadal in 2 Wimbledon/GS Finals unlike any other player in history?

yuri27
05-24-2011, 09:37 AM
Having a one-handed BH is definitely a big disadvantage against Nadal,especially on clay and especially for a right-hander.
The OP mentionned Gasquet but if i'm not mistaken,he is 0-9 against Nadal despite having probably one of the best if not the best one-handed BH of all time.
And in many of his losses against Rafa, his BH was meticulously destroyed by Rafa's agressive moonballing as it has happened many times for Roger.

Lleyton_
05-24-2011, 10:04 AM
Yes. See WTF 2010 final. Moonballs don't work indoors.

paseo
05-24-2011, 10:25 AM
Having a one-handed BH is definitely a big disadvantage against Nadal,especially on clay and especially for a right-hander.
The OP mentionned Gasquet but if i'm not mistaken,he is 0-9 against Nadal despite having probably one of the best if not the best one-handed BH of all time.
And in many of his losses against Rafa, his BH was meticulously destroyed by Rafa's agressive moonballing as it has happened many times for Roger.

Gasquet BH is great, no doubt. But "of all time"?

yuri27
05-24-2011, 10:39 AM
Gasquet BH is great, no doubt. But "of all time"?

Without his BH, the guy probably wouldn't even be a top 400 player.....i think that tells you the whole story.
Anyway, free to you to name me better one-handed BH than Gasquet's one.
I'll give you Kuerten perhaps (even though his BH was not effective on every surface contrary to Gasquet) but for the rest.....

GSMnadal
05-24-2011, 10:50 AM
Fed can't even get the ball over the net and in play from his backhand side, let alone drilling it wide and crosscourt.

Sophocles
05-24-2011, 11:05 AM
Fed can't even get the ball over the net and in play from his backhand side, let alone drilling it wide and crosscourt.

Sadly true these days.

The answer to the question is Yes, on lower-bouncing surfaces. Otherwise, patently, No.

Apemant
05-24-2011, 11:54 AM
he executed it well enough at the WTF.
on clay and other high bounce surfaces? no.

He had matchpoints in Rome 2006. Yes, he didn't convert them - but anyone who saw that match and still maintains that he 'couldn't possibly' - obviously is an idiot. :devil: Not naming anyone, of course... :haha:

Right now, I don't think he can do it on clay anymore; on other surfaces, he can still be dangerous if he's on.

barahmasa
05-24-2011, 12:38 PM
On fast courts - yes, on slow courts - hell no.

Forehander
05-24-2011, 01:59 PM
Without his BH, the guy probably wouldn't even be a top 400 player.....i think that tells you the whole story.
Anyway, free to you to name me better one-handed BH than Gasquet's one.
I'll give you Kuerten perhaps (even though his BH was not effective on every surface contrary to Gasquet) but for the rest.....

fk off already alright kuerten's backhand is so ridiculously overrated.

eduggs
05-24-2011, 05:19 PM
Yes. See WTF 2010 final. Moonballs don't work indoors.

Yup. Most recently, Fed utilized the cc backhand with great success in the WTF final. He has and surely can execute it.

Yes it's a very difficult shot, but not just for one handers. And it's best used sparingly. It's most effective when a player (Nadal for example) runs around his own backhand. It's generally a low percentage shot that opens the court for a left handed opponent if not well hit or well placed.

Court positioning is the advantage that Djokovic has over Nadal (and Federer), because he doesn't run around his backhanded very often. But between Nadal and Federer on clay, Federer's backhand side isn't the difference. The difference is Nadal's movement and retrieving. If Nadal were a quarter step slower, Federer probably would have beaten him 3 out of 4 times at RG.

eduggs
05-24-2011, 05:25 PM
he executed it well enough at the WTF.
on clay and other high bounce surfaces? no.

Agree with apemant. If you've watched tennis for longer than the past 2 or 3 years, you would likely not make this statement.

In several past matches on clay, Federer has shown he can handle everything Nadal has thrown at him. He has tactics and weapons to hurt Nadal, and the ability to defend weaknesses, including high bouncing balls to his backhand. The fact that he hasn't won more of their many close matches on clay says more about Nadal's strength and determination than it does about any Federer shortcoming.

Vida
05-24-2011, 05:35 PM
can federer execute it? :rolleyes:

OMGWTF!

Vida
05-24-2011, 05:37 PM
Agree with apemant. If you've watched tennis for longer than the past 2 or 3 years, you would likely not make this statement.

In several past matches on clay, Federer has shown he can handle everything Nadal has thrown at him. He has tactics and weapons to hurt Nadal, and the ability to defend weaknesses, including high bouncing balls to his backhand. The fact that he hasn't won more of their many close matches on clay says more about Nadal's strength and determination than it does about any Federer shortcoming.

err. fed is FLAWED vs nadal (and other players who can attack his BH) :shrug: isnt that obvious?

I mean how come djoker has managed 4 straight wins against nadal - on clay including?

sexybeast
05-24-2011, 06:15 PM
It is not as hard to beat Nadal as it used to be. Simply approach the net on his backhand, his backhand passing shots are quite awful and have been so for the whole clay season. Just play his backhand alot, wait for moonballs and go for it. Soderling, Davydenko and Murray all could do it on Nadal's way to the final. Djokovic WILL do it. Federer can slice again to Nadal's backhand instead of trying the backhan crosscourt, because Nadal wont be running around it to hit a forehand as fast as he used to.

eduggs
05-24-2011, 07:28 PM
err. fed is FLAWED vs nadal (and other players who can attack his BH) :shrug: isnt that obvious?

I mean how come djoker has managed 4 straight wins against nadal - on clay including?

Fed vs. Nadal and Djoker vs. Nadal are separate issues.

Fed doesn't have a flaw vs. Nadal on clay. They've played 13 times and every match has been close except for one - 2008 RG (maybe two if you count Fed's 2007 Hamburg victory). Contrary to popular belief, Federer's relative struggles against Nadal on clay are due to Nadal's movement, not Federer's backhand. Federer likes to control play with his serve/forehand combo. Nadal's quickness and defense makes it difficult for Federer to execute this style of play, often forcing Federer to hit extra shots and perfect approaches (hence errors). While most players have some trouble with high bouncing balls to their weaker wing, Federer handles this better than most players, if not quite as good as some of the best such as Djokovic or Ferrer. Certainly he is better than Nadal in this regard. To say that Federer's backhand is the problem isn't fair to Federer, because his backhand is actually pretty solid - and it's also not fair to Nadal. Nadal winning all those close matches against Federer, I think, says more about Nadal's strengths than it does about Federer's weaknesses.

As for Djokovic, his recent run of success against Nadal (and in the past on hard court) is largely due to his court positioning advantage. He doesn't run around his backhand very often whereas Nadal does. And yes, this is because his backhand is a weapon, only slightly less strong than his forehand. But even with this advantage, he was 0-9 against Nadal on clay until this year. Once again, I think this says more about Nadal's strengths than it says about Djokovic's weaknesses.

r2473
05-24-2011, 07:41 PM
Re: Strategy Against Nadal

"Pray for death"

Halba
05-24-2011, 10:09 PM
Fed vs. Nadal and Djoker vs. Nadal are separate issues.

Fed doesn't have a flaw vs. Nadal on clay. They've played 13 times and every match has been close except for one - 2008 RG (maybe two if you count Fed's 2007 Hamburg victory). Contrary to popular belief, Federer's relative struggles against Nadal on clay are due to Nadal's movement, not Federer's backhand. Federer likes to control play with his serve/forehand combo. Nadal's quickness and defense makes it difficult for Federer to execute this style of play, often forcing Federer to hit extra shots and perfect approaches (hence errors). While most players have some trouble with high bouncing balls to their weaker wing, Federer handles this better than most players, if not quite as good as some of the best such as Djokovic or Ferrer. Certainly he is better than Nadal in this regard. To say that Federer's backhand is the problem isn't fair to Federer, because his backhand is actually pretty solid - and it's also not fair to Nadal. Nadal winning all those close matches against Federer, I think, says more about Nadal's strengths than it does about Federer's weaknesses.

As for Djokovic, his recent run of success against Nadal (and in the past on hard court) is largely due to his court positioning advantage. He doesn't run around his backhand very often whereas Nadal does. And yes, this is because his backhand is a weapon, only slightly less strong than his forehand. But even with this advantage, he was 0-9 against Nadal on clay until this year. Once again, I think this says more about Nadal's strengths than it says about Djokovic's weaknesses.

djokovic has improved 10% this year. serve, forehand, movement backhand,fitness etc slight gains in all.

federer has declined 10% this year. nadal has declined about 10% in a year esp. movement, backhand and serve

bokehlicious
05-24-2011, 10:26 PM
WTF with these whiner threads now when Federer is run over by BOTH Djokovic and Nadal, and has become yesterday's news in a blink of an eye? Grow up, Fedtards, and either be decent in your mourning (if you've truly respected Fed's legacy) or find another wagon to jump to (if you're a fangirl/bandwagoner).

Re: the subject, he had more than ample opportunities to show if he can or can't do it. Conclusion: he can't.

:lol: those 16 slams still sting on a daily basis and will surely haunt you for some more decades :drool: :D

moon language
05-24-2011, 11:31 PM
Yes Federer can do it at the WTF with the dead low bouncing court. Can he do it on any other court? No.

eduggs
05-25-2011, 01:09 AM
djokovic has improved 10% this year. serve, forehand, movement backhand,fitness etc slight gains in all.

federer has declined 10% this year. nadal has declined about 10% in a year esp. movement, backhand and serve

What does that even mean - improved or declined 10%? How and when did this happen? Where do you get this specific figure? And what makes you the judge of that?

If a top player lost 10% of their lung capacity, running speed, service or groundstroke pace, or any other significant and measureable parameter, I doubt they'd be able to compete against the top 100. 10% is a very large percentage change, especially over a short time.

I don't think Djokovic, Nadal, or Federer are noticeably different players now than a year ago. Fed and Nadal in particular look about the same, and their results are about the same. Djokovic looks more consistent - remarkably conistent in fact - but his serve, forehand, and backhand are not any better than during his stronger moments from previous years. How would a player improve so much anyway? There's not much time during the year for practice.

tests
05-25-2011, 01:11 AM
What does that even mean - improved or declined 10%? How and when did this happen? Where do you get this specific figure? And what makes you the judge of that?

If a top player lost 10% of their lung capacity, running speed, service or groundstroke pace, or any other significant and measureable parameter, I doubt they'd be able to compete against the top 100. 10% is a very large percentage change, especially over a short time.

I don't think Djokovic, Nadal, or Federer are noticeably different players now than a year ago. Fed and Nadal in particular look about the same, and their results are about the same. Djokovic looks more consistent - remarkably conistent in fact - but his serve, forehand, and backhand are not any better than during his stronger moments from previous years. How would a player improve so much anyway? There's not much time during the year for practice.

its called confidence.

Djokervic could always play like this, he just never had the confidence in the past.

Hell, i think some aspects of djoker were better in 2008, but thats just me

eduggs
05-25-2011, 01:27 AM
its called confidence.

Djokervic could always play like this, he just never had the confidence in the past.

Hell, i think some aspects of djoker were better in 2008, but thats just me

I agree with the confidence thing and the fact that he's played as good or better in spurts in the past. And I think it's the confidence that gives him the conviction in his shots and has really helped his consistency and execution. I just don't understand or agree with the idea that he has measurably improved - for example by 10%. I also think confidence is fleeting, especially in tennis. And all it takes is one bad day, bad conditions, a tricky opponent, or who knows what, to rob a player of that mystical feeling.

tests
05-25-2011, 01:36 AM
I agree with the confidence thing and the fact that he's played as good or better in spurts in the past. And I think it's the confidence that gives him the conviction in his shots and has really helped his consistency and execution. I just don't understand or agree with the idea that he has measurably improved - for example by 10%. I also think confidence is fleeting, especially in tennis. And all it takes is one bad day, bad conditions, a tricky opponent, or who knows what, to rob a player of that mystical feeling.

true... or a bad injury ( see marat safin)