Sports Illustrated on doping, the Odesnik case and Djokovic's run [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Sports Illustrated on doping, the Odesnik case and Djokovic's run

tnosugar
05-18-2011, 09:54 AM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jon_wertheim/05/10/djokovic.odesnik/index.html?sct=tn_wr_a1

A good article. I'd tend to agree, although I had my doubts in the past as well.

ballbasher101
05-18-2011, 11:29 AM
There are 2 sports that have a doping problem cycling and athletics. The only thing that could worry me about tennis is match fixing besides that I think the sport is clean and those that have doped have been caught. Top players undergo extensive testing so doping is not an issue. Match fixing is harder to detect sadly in any sport.

Fujee
05-18-2011, 11:38 AM
There's a thread for doping, mods should put this in there. Good article though

gaitare
05-18-2011, 11:38 AM
There are 2 sports that have a doping problem cycling and athletics. The only thing that could worry me about tennis is match fixing besides that I think the sport is clean and those that have doped have been caught. Top players undergo extensive testing so doping is not an issue. Match fixing is harder to detect sadly in any sport.

This is a hilarious post on the whole (I know you are being ironic) but that sentence in bold is a true gem.

ballbasher101
05-18-2011, 11:59 AM
This is a hilarious post on the whole (I know you are being ironic) but that sentence in bold is a true gem.

What can I say, I'm too trusting :lol:. Funny how Mariano Puerta lost to Nadal in the final of the French even though he was doped up :scratch: :lol:. I do think and hope that the likes of Federer, Nadal, Murray and Djokovic respect the game enough not to cheat.

MayerFan
05-18-2011, 12:03 PM
I don't share the optimism of the original poster about players not doping in tennis. As with any other professional sports, I'm sceptical.

AndyNonomous
05-18-2011, 01:14 PM
WSJ.com May 16 2011 The Diet That Shook Up Tennis? Starch Madness: Novak Djokovic's Domination of the Sport Has Coincided With His Gluten-Free Turn

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703509104576327624238594818.html

http://www.thestar.com/sports/tennis/article/992439--is-a-gluten-free-diet-the-reason-for-novak-djokovic-s-success-on-court


http://i56.tinypic.com/1zmi9dx.jpg

philosophicalarf
05-18-2011, 01:42 PM
When you dig into the details you realise that tennis drugtesting is riddled with dozens of easily abusable holes, there's almost no out of competition testing, and what little there is is ridiculously easy to evade. On top of that, the Agassi/nandrolene42 affairs showed the authorities are more than willing to cover it up when their stars are caught.

Why wouldn't tennis then be riddled with doping? Just ask Puerta or Korda if it works.

Chris Kuerten
05-18-2011, 01:56 PM
Doping and fixing happens all the time, but the ATP never makes it public to 'protect' the sport (scamming the fans).

Garson007
05-18-2011, 01:56 PM
Doping doesn't make you hit the lines or pull off ridiculous shots. :shrug:

Chris Kuerten
05-18-2011, 02:02 PM
Doping doesn't make you hit the lines or pull off ridiculous shots. :shrug:
Stamina is a very important thing in tennis. If you don't get tired your footwork will stay optimal which makes your shots a lot better in the end of long matches.

tennizen
05-18-2011, 02:04 PM
Doping and fixing happens all the time, but the ATP never makes it public to 'protect' the sport (scamming the fans).

Why aren't other sports organizations as good as ATP at doing this?

Chris Kuerten
05-18-2011, 02:07 PM
Why aren't other sports organizations as good as ATP at doing this?
Maybe they actually care about their sport. Obviously I can't say for sure if doping is being used a lot in tennis, but fixing is a fact and the ATP hasn't confirmed one case while there has been dozens.

philosophicalarf
05-18-2011, 02:14 PM
Maybe they actually care about their sport. Obviously I can't say for sure if doping is being used a lot in tennis, but fixing is a fact and the ATP hasn't confirmed one case while there has been dozens.

To be fair, it's atrociously hard to do anything about. Many examples are pretty obvious, and when it's the same bent players time and again there can't be any doubt. To connect that in a legal sustainable way? Good luck.

The ATP have picked a middle ground of semi-publically shaming players with their "we-spotted-you-fixing" letters. It probably won't work, cos the media are scared of being sued and largely stay away from the details, but it's better than nothing.

tennizen
05-18-2011, 02:20 PM
Maybe they actually care about their sport. Obviously I can't say for sure if doping is being used a lot in tennis, but fixing is a fact and the ATP hasn't confirmed one case while there has been dozens.

Doping and fixing happens all the time, but the ATP never makes it public to 'protect' the sport (scamming the fans).

:lol: Anyway, it would be naive to think something like this doesn't happen at some level but not as much as people would like to believe either. I prefer to give benefit of doubt especially to players at the top level because they have a lot more to lose than gain by doing something like this.

emotion
05-18-2011, 02:25 PM
I imagine over half of the top players dope

philosophicalarf
05-18-2011, 02:37 PM
:lol: Anyway, it would be naive to think something like this doesn't happen at some level but not as much as people would like to believe either. I prefer to give benefit of doubt especially to players at the top level because they have a lot more to lose than gain by doing something like this.

They have nothing to lose if they dope out of competition - just give a fake location. A few days later it's out of the system.

There's a very small chance a tester might turn up on the weeks they're doping(100ish tests a year for all male players inc doubles, lol). Even then, no big deal, they just get a warning, carry on doping. Only a problem if that happens 3 times in 18 months, but that's very unlikely, there aren't enough tests.

They also have nothing to lose if they use the numerous drugs not tested fo - eg HGH. Or they can use EPO pretty much all year, safe in the knowledge only the slams test for it.


You couldn't design a system more ineffective than the one tennis uses. They might as well not test at all.

Chris Kuerten
05-18-2011, 02:41 PM
:lol: Anyway, it would be naive to think something like this doesn't happen at some level but not as much as people would like to believe either. I prefer to give benefit of doubt especially to players at the top level because they have a lot more to lose than gain by doing something like this.
I meant I can't proof it myself.

tennizen
05-18-2011, 02:46 PM
They have nothing to lose if they dope out of competition - just give a fake location. A few days later it's out of the system.

There's a very small chance a tester might turn up on the weeks they're doping(100ish tests a year for all male players inc doubles, lol). Even then, no big deal, they just get a warning, carry on doping. Only a problem if that happens 3 times in 18 months, but that's very unlikely, there aren't enough tests.

They also have nothing to lose if they use the numerous drugs not tested fo - eg HGH. Or they can use EPO pretty much all year, safe in the knowledge only the slams test for it.


You couldn't design a system more ineffective than the one tennis uses. They might as well not test at all.

If everyone dopes, then it's the same as everyone not doping. I am ok with that. Level playing field again if it's as simple as you suggest it is. I wonder why anyone doesn't dope in such a case.

Lurking
05-18-2011, 02:53 PM
Why aren't other sports organizations as good as ATP at doing this?

They are.

If everyone dopes, then it's the same as everyone not doping. I am ok with that. Level playing field again if it's as simple as you suggest it is. I wonder why anyone doesn't dope in such a case.

As it isn't.

Challenger guys use c grade epo from China, top 10 microdose a grade epo with a program from the trainer that travels with them.

Garson007
05-18-2011, 02:53 PM
I still don't know how they decide where to draw the line. The drugs they test for are completely arbitrary.

tennizen
05-18-2011, 02:59 PM
As it isn't.

Challenger guys use c grade epo from China, top 10 microdose a grade epo with a program from the trainer that travels with them.

As long as there is parity at each level:yeah:. Lower ranked players compete to get to top 10 so they can take a higher grade of dope. Seems like all is fair to me and things are same as the case without dope:shrug:

Chris Kuerten
05-18-2011, 03:12 PM
As long as there is parity at each level:yeah:. Lower ranked players compete to get to top 10 so they can take a higher grade of dope. Seems like all is fair to me and things are same as the case without dope:shrug:
Except the health of the players, don't you need to protect them against themselves?

tennizen
05-18-2011, 03:19 PM
Except the health of the players, don't you need to protect them against themselves?

Don't think so.

AndyNonomous
05-18-2011, 03:20 PM
As long as there is parity at each level:yeah:. Lower ranked players compete to get to top 10 so they can take a higher grade of dope. Seems like all is fair to me and things are same as the case without dope:shrug:


This is a fake argument given by people who suspect their own favorite is a doper (spread the shame). The odds that the results would be EXACTLY the same if everyone is doped versus everyone is not doped is virtually zero.


1) Not all players dope (for health reasons, for moral reasons, for cost reasons,...).

2) Doping has a different affect on different athletes (in tennis, a high skill player would benefit FAR less than a high "physical" player - a player whose game is built on speed, strength, and endurance). As well, some players have a physiology that would benefit from PEDs more than others (drugs affect different people in different ways).

3) Some have better "doctors" than do others (some countries protect their "doping doctors"). This freehand to dope athletes gives athletes from some countries a "leg-up". Just ask yourself, "where do the athletes prefer to 'train' ?".

Getta
05-18-2011, 03:23 PM
As long as there is parity at each level:yeah:. Lower ranked players compete to get to top 10 so they can take a higher grade of dope. Seems like all is fair to me and things are same as the case without dope:shrug:

do all players of the same level have access to the same scientists and researchers at the cutting edge of nutrition, biomechanics and medical research?

Except the health of the players, don't you need to protect them against themselves?

:superlol:

smoking is legal. i'm a smoker myself.

tennizen
05-18-2011, 03:31 PM
This is a fake argument given by people who suspect their own favorite is a doper (spread the shame).



Guilty as charged:sobbing:

1) Not all players dope (for health reasons, for moral reasons, for cost reasons,...).

They should. It's easy, it's available and they spend a lot on training anyway. No reason not to take these costs into consideration.

2) Doping has a different affect on different athletes (in tennis, a high skill player would benefit FAR less than a high "physical" player - a player whose game is built on speed, strength, and endurance). As well, some players have a physiology that would benefit from PEDs more than others (drugs affect different people in different ways).

Strength and endurance are always useful. Doesn't matter if it's slightly less beneficial. Still pretty useful, I would say.

3) Some have better "doctors" than do others (some countries protect their "doping doctors"). This freehand to dope athletes gives athletes from some countries a "leg-up". Just ask yourself, "where do the athletes prefer to 'train' ?".

That discrepancy is no different than some players having better facilities to train,better coaches, better equipment. Doping itself isn't really adding significantly to the inequality.

CCBH
05-18-2011, 03:36 PM
Doping doesn't make you hit the lines or pull off ridiculous shots. :shrug:

Actually, better and more energetic footwork takes my own (modest) game to quite superb levels. It feels like my shots have more zip and I can choose to go for riskier plays. Yes, fitness training is how you get there, but anything that provides an aerobic boost will make a significant difference at pro level.

r2473
05-18-2011, 03:44 PM
You couldn't design a system more ineffective than the one tennis uses. They might as well not test at all.

Perfect system IMO.

Has the appearance (to the casual fan....meaning most people) of tough drug testing.

The reality is that it is perfectly easy to evade for all the players.

Perfect. Everybody wins.

Nathaliia
05-18-2011, 03:45 PM
From what I have heard behind the scenes doping is more a case in tennis than you think. And yes, ATP, WTA and rich federations are covering it up, at worst sending the offender for an "long injury holiday" but help to save the name. If someone else on MTF is in touch with professional tennis probably can confirm my words. But I don't like to listen to such things and I haven't heard any names (or didn't want to listen to them).

I like to trust and just enjoy the fight.

When Nadal was winning everything he was the dope accused one, when Djokovic started to win everything, then he is under the bad light. And how about just accepting some player reaches the peak? They are all the geniuses of tennis, gifted with accuracy, tactic execution, natural stamina better than others who try but fail, cold head to handle everything from saving matchpoints to not getting bored with the constant travels. All of that backed up with a will of hard work. Nobody can handle it for eternity, and nobody does. Guys stay on top for a few years, some can achieve their prime only for 1-2 seasons (Schuettler etc.). Some need to grow mentally for successes (Federer, Djokovic... Murray has enough of talent but not enough of head, why wouldn't he refocus next season and stun us?)

Haven't you felt at least once in your life whatever you touch it's bringing success? Did you dope for that? You only excelled at your work and that's it, but you seemed to be carried on with the wind of greatness. Well, then accept this is those guys' work and they are also entitled to stay in a dream they don't want to wake up. It's an amazing boost of confidence, practically every person who goes out on court to face Djokovic know he's got some superpowers. Yes, it means the opponent will be half a second slower, unhappier, less trusting in self abilities - all in favour of Djokovic. The same aura circled around other players in the past. Do you remember let's say, Hingis? She was pretty invincible at her times, despite having small physical power - but a lot of smartness that made her win matches, and her opponents were quite cooked once they entered the court. Once her streak was broken she started to get defeats also from lesser players than Williams sisters or Davenport, just because they weren't so afraid anymore.

It's a natural turn, will eventually happen to everyone. Poor Fed is even getting spanked by pigeons now.

Another thing that helps Djokovic is - though I hate to say it - the Weak Era. Fed is getting old, can peak only at the most important events for him and Rafa is kind of getting burned out. Haven't you, while watching his matches, thought, "OMG if Ferrer wasn't such a retard he would have won it?" (Monte Carlo) I think Rafa plays worse tennis overall than he used to. He even played a very equal match with another pusher, Devvarman, of all people and if Somdev had been braver at clutch points Rafa could have lost that match as well. Djokovic isn't scared and is turning Rafa's slight downfall into his favour.

Del Potro is permanently injured and gone, Soderling injured and retarded, Berdych retarded and once when he could beat Nole (Dubai) got injured. Murray - so far the toughest match up but choked like a mug when he had a match in his hands, you can't blame Nole for another player throwing an essential ball out when the court is open.

Please, think a little before you accuse someone.

zcess81
05-18-2011, 03:51 PM
There is a very simple solution when it comes to doping/steroids: let everyone use it.
How fun would that be? Watching 50 shot rallies every point.

Chris Kuerten
05-18-2011, 03:59 PM
:superlol:

smoking is legal. i'm a smoker myself.
Great example, you can totally compare those two things.

moon language
05-18-2011, 04:00 PM
This is a fake argument given by people who suspect their own favorite is a doper (spread the shame). The odds that the results would be EXACTLY the same if everyone is doped versus everyone is not doped is virtually zero.


1) Not all players dope (for health reasons, for moral reasons, for cost reasons,...).

2) Doping has a different affect on different athletes (in tennis, a high skill player would benefit FAR less than a high "physical" player - a player whose game is built on speed, strength, and endurance). As well, some players have a physiology that would benefit from PEDs more than others (drugs affect different people in different ways).

3) Some have better "doctors" than do others (some countries protect their "doping doctors"). This freehand to dope athletes gives athletes from some countries a "leg-up". Just ask yourself, "where do the athletes prefer to 'train' ?".

If that's the case then saying the playing field is ever level is a "fake argument". Some players always have better support than others, doping or not.

AndyNonomous
05-18-2011, 04:12 PM
If that's the case then saying the playing field is ever level is a "fake argument". Some players always have better support than others, doping or not.


Equating legal advantages (like height, more money for equipment, better access to facilities), to ILLEGAL advantages (taking PEDs) is a fake argument.


In most cases the legal advantages (money), can be overcome (ie. Williams sisters). The Illegal advantages are much more difficult to overcome (if your opponent has unlimited stamina).

What next, one player can get unlimmited breaks for recuperation ? Some players can stand closer to the net for serving ?... There are rules for a reason.

I notice that the fans of certain players are arguing that PEDs use isn't unfair. I wonder why (do they suspect their favorite player is using ?)?

Nadull_tard
05-18-2011, 04:18 PM
Notice that most of players who are caught come from poor countries or they ain't top players.

AndyNonomous
05-18-2011, 04:23 PM
Notice that most of players who are caught come from poor countries or they ain't top players.


Part of this is due to those players not having the "medical support". This medical support reduces the chance of getting caught. I suspect that so many Argentinians were getting caught because they didn't have the proper medical supervision. This doesn't mean that Argentinians are cheating more, just that they aren't beating the tests (which are quite easy to beat with the substances used today) because they were "lone-wolf" doping.

Mjau!
05-18-2011, 04:38 PM
If everyone dopes, then it's the same as everyone not doping. I am ok with that. Level playing field again if it's as simple as you suggest it is. I wonder why anyone doesn't dope in such a case.

No, it totally isn't because:

A) It's not like there's a universal doping program that every doper must follow to a T. :rolleyes: These will obviously differ from doper to doper.

B) Even if everyone were on the very same doping program, response may vary quite significantly from person to person. This has been well established in scientific studies.

C) Some players rely more on fitness and strength than others.

Besides, everyone doping is as unrealistic as no one doping.

alter ego
05-18-2011, 04:40 PM
There is a very simple solution when it comes to doping/steroids: let everyone use it.
How fun would that be? Watching 50 shot rallies every point.

Do you want to see tennis player die on court like we have seen football players?

Mjau!
05-18-2011, 04:46 PM
If that's the case then saying the playing field is ever level is a "fake argument". Some players always have better support than others, doping or not.

But those are all advantages within the rules of the game. Surely you can see the difference between a legal advantage and an illegal advantage?

The point was, everyone doping = different outcome than no one doping.

Getta
05-18-2011, 04:49 PM
I notice that the fans of certain players are arguing that PEDs use isn't unfair. I wonder why ?

being procedurally unfair and not substantively unfair, PEDs use is still unfair.

and, i'm fangirling over two dozen tennis players. any particular name springs to mind here?

Mjau!
05-18-2011, 04:53 PM
:superlol:

smoking is legal. i'm a smoker myself.

Yes, smoking is legal, unlike doping and not smoking wont hurt your career. Kids who play tennis and dream about going pro do not realize that they are either going to have to take drugs or be at an unfair disadvantage (I'm not saying that's actually the case, but in this hypothetical scenario). Risk your health or give up your dreams is not really the dilemma a smoker faces, is it?

Mjau!
05-18-2011, 04:55 PM
Nevermind that a drug-riddled sport that pretends to be drug-free is one big lie to the fans as well.

tennizen
05-18-2011, 04:58 PM
No, it totally isn't because:

A) It's not like there's a universal doping program that every doper must follow to a T. :rolleyes: These will obviously differ from doper to doper.

B) Even if everyone were on the very same doping program, response may vary quite significantly from person to person. This has been well established in scientific studies.

C) Some players rely more on fitness and strength than others.

Besides, everyone doping is as unrealistic as no one doping.

No doping/current/ideal scenario:

-Players come from varied economic strata, with different levels of accessibility to tennis training regimens, coaches, equipment etc. They inherently have different physical abilities and skill sets.

Dope is widely accessible/still illegal but hardly monitored so no one can really get caught scenario

-Players come from varied economic strata, with different levels of accessibility to tennis training regimens, coaches, equipment,dope etc. They inherently have different physical abilities and skill sets and physical responses to doping.

Don't see how it is different or more unequal to be honest. Except for the moral compunction which is nullified by majority use.

Getta
05-18-2011, 05:00 PM
Yes, smoking is legal, unlike doping and not smoking wont hurt your career. Kids who play tennis and dream about going pro do not realize that they are either going to have to take drugs or be at an unfair disadvantage (I'm not saying that's actually the case, but in this hypothetical scenario). Risk your health or give up your dreams is not really the dilemma a smoker faces, is it?

current top tennis players do not risk their health.

Nevermind that a drug-riddled sport that pretends to be drug-free is one big lie to the fans as well.

+1

The Magician
05-18-2011, 05:09 PM
Everybody knows who dopes, especially among the top players, and yet saying so will get you banned on MTF. That alone should tell you how ridiculous tennis is at the moment, players right to dope is more protected than freedom of speech :o

Nadull_tard
05-18-2011, 05:09 PM
current top tennis players do not risk their health.


How's that? I think they take a huge risk when they decide to dope, everyone from the alleged dopers generation is a young person at this point, let's wait until they turn 40 or higher and then we can talk.

abraxas21
05-18-2011, 05:20 PM
Everybody knows who dopes, especially among the top players, and yet saying so will get you banned on MTF. That alone should tell you how ridiculous tennis is at the moment, players right to dope is more protected than freedom of speech :o

MTF probly works as a cover operation for pro-athletes' drug trade in this time and age. hence their ongoing protection of the players from even the slightest suggestion of doping.

Mjau!
05-18-2011, 05:22 PM
No doping/current/ideal scenario:

-Players come from varied economic strata, with different levels of accessibility to tennis training regimens, coaches, equipment etc. They inherently have different physical abilities and skill sets.

Dope is widely accessible/still illegal but hardly monitored so no one can really get caught scenario

-Players come from varied economic strata, with different levels of accessibility to tennis training regimens, coaches, equipment,dope etc. They inherently have different physical abilities and skill sets and physical responses to doping.

Don't see how it is different or more unequal to be honest. Except for the moral compunction which is nullified by majority use.

Because it's ILLEGAL and clandestine, obviously. Everything else you mentioned are legal, overt and accepted differences in conditions, oppurtunities and even natural talent.

Your argument has changed from "it's a level playing field" to "differences in natural talent and coaching are unfair too!". It's an asinine argument. You could justify just about anything by that logic.

"I don't see what's wrong with Robin jabbing Roger in the eye during a change over. Roger is so much more talented! That's unfair too!"

AndyNonomous
05-18-2011, 05:23 PM
and, i'm fangirling over two dozen tennis players. any particular name springs to mind here?


No way ! I don't want my head bit off !:devil:


It's easy enough to figure out who is doping however, by the amount of circumstantial evidence against the player.

- Do they use a doctor to prepare for competition (especially someone who knows how to beat the tests) ?
- Do they complain that the testing is too stringent ?
- Do they have significant changes to their physicality (speed/strength/endurance) mid career (watch for endurance, serve speed, ground stroke speed and depth that always seems to peak at the slams)?
- Does their body shape change back and forth over time ?
- Do their results change over time (as opposed to the gradual increase in performance, peaking out, then gradual decline that used to be normal for a tennis player's career) ?
- Do they train in a country where the local authorities protect dopers ?
- Are they associated with shady characters ?


Each of these things are not proof that a player is doping, but, the more of these things a player is associated with, the more likely it is that they are doping.


Oh, and another +1 for it is a big lie that tennis promotes itself as a clean sport, when it is damned obvious to most adults that it is no better than pro-cycling, or track and field, baseball, football,...

At least some of the other sports acknowledge that they have a problem (although they downplay it).

The Magician
05-18-2011, 05:28 PM
MTF probly works as a cover operation for pro-athletes' drug trade in this time and age. hence their ongoing protection of the players from even the slightest suggestion of doping.

:lol:

Mens Doping Forums :bolt:

Mjau!
05-18-2011, 05:31 PM
:o @ "moral compunction which is nullified by majority use". Right, so if only a minority refuse to dope, they aren't wronged at all, even though the sport is supposed to be anti-doping and drug free? They are just :cuckoo: for playing by the rules? Those who want to accept doping can start a new Tour where drugs are openly accepted and no drug tests are carried out. Doing it behind the scenes is basically fraud.

Foxy
05-18-2011, 05:41 PM
Doping doesn't make you hit the lines or pull off ridiculous shots. :shrug:

Try again.

r2473
05-18-2011, 06:39 PM
MTF probly works as a cover operation for pro-athletes' drug trade in this time and age. hence their ongoing protection of the players from even the slightest suggestion of doping.

War is Peace

Freedom is Slavery

Ignorance is Strength

Sapeod
05-18-2011, 07:59 PM
What can I say, I'm too trusting :lol:. Funny how Mariano Puerta lost to Nadal in the final of the French even though he was doped up :scratch: :lol:. I do think and hope that the likes of Federer, Nadal, Murray and Djokovic respect the game enough not to cheat.
Both Nadal and Djokovic have cheated before, by taking fake timeouts. Of course, then there's Nadal's coaching during matches. Murray and Federer have never cheated.

Michael Bluth
05-18-2011, 08:03 PM
Nadal all his career has been the same, Djokovic in 6 months has muted from a weak player to Superman...:wavey:

Uh, your definition of weak is a consistent top 3 player for four years? Okay.

MaxPower
05-18-2011, 08:40 PM
I have a theory that some players use illegal substances to get back faster from injury. It's not like you are tested when you don't play anyway (or are you?). Lets say you have to do surgery on the shoulder/knees/back or something and can't train for months. Gonna drop a lot of muscle mass etc.

Doping could get you back to the tour faster before your ranking drops and allow you to get right back into it. Also any traces of the substances will be gone before your "comeback" otherwise you can postpone it a little. Essentially you could save your career and a lot of money so yes I do think this happens in tennis. I know for a fact it happens in other sports and is rarely detected unless the testing is very rigorous.

Foxy
05-18-2011, 08:48 PM
I have a theory that some players use illegal substances to get back faster from injury. It's not like you are tested when you don't play anyway (or are you?). Lets say you have to do surgery on the shoulder/knees/back or something and can't train for months. Gonna drop a lot of muscle mass etc.

Doping could get you back to the tour faster before your ranking drops and allow you to get right back into it. Also any traces of the substances will be gone before your "comeback" otherwise you can postpone it a little. Essentially you could save your career and a lot of money so yes I do think this happens in tennis. I know for a fact it happens in other sports and is rarely detected unless the testing is very rigorous.

It doesn't work that way. They could test you whenever they want. Even if you are on a "deathbed".

Okram04
05-18-2011, 09:18 PM
Ok, this really should end. First of all, Nole had much trouble with health in his youth. At one point, even his career was endangered. I heard couple of interviews where he clearly stated that health was his number one priority and that no trophy or achievement is more important than his health. He retired from his matches on more than a few occasions because of health concerns, even if it meant widespread disapproval from fans and players alike. He clearly never would have risked his health.

He was always a great athlete and the biggest issue with his stamina were sporadic breathing difficulties. When he had those problems, you could see it early on in a match. When he hadn't, he could play as long as he liked. Just look at Madrid '09... It really does seem like it was allergy.

Now, the way I see it, it was a blessing and a curse. Because of breathing issues, during the years of his growth, his body had to naturally adjust to reduced oxygen input. That pays some dividends in his levels of fitness now that problem is gone.

He had another type of blessing and a curse. He had to grow as a player in the shadows of two real GOAT's. If there were no Nadal or Fed he would have been No1 back in 2007 or 2008. But without them his game would have never evolved to current level.
Not to mention that hard defeats in big matches only made him extremely tough.
He could be No1 for a long time. He is 23 years old, don't forget that.

Vida
05-18-2011, 09:20 PM
only one thing to say right now: 4 x 4 + 1 = 17 > 16 :yeah:

r2473
05-18-2011, 09:27 PM
only one thing to say right now: 4 x 4 + 1 = 17 > 16 :yeah:

4*(4+1) = 20

janko05
05-18-2011, 09:41 PM
It doesn't work that way. They could test you whenever they want. Even if you are on a "deathbed".

Exactly. And there is no substance they couldn't find.

ballbasher101
05-18-2011, 10:07 PM
I will apologize in advance for what I'm about to say. It is well known that players from North and South America are the ones that have been implicated in doping in the past. So I'm not too concerned about the likes of Federer, Nadal, Djokovic and Murray draging the sport we all love in the mud.

MayerFan
05-18-2011, 10:23 PM
Doping doesn't make you hit the lines or pull off ridiculous shots. :shrug:

How come? Honestly...

It obviously does. 90% of power in tennis comes from good footwork, being in position to hit every shot. The more shots you get perfectly in position, the more you hit the lines.

Doping and fixing happens all the time, but the ATP never makes it public to 'protect' the sport (scamming the fans).

I tend to agree.

Notice that most of players who are caught come from poor countries or they ain't top players.

Exactly. Mostly South American and Eastern Europe.

Nevermind that a drug-riddled sport that pretends to be drug-free is one big lie to the fans as well.

It's a shame, unfortunately, that most people prefer to turn a blind eye to this problem IN EVERY SPORT - so people don't think I'm singling out tennis.

There is a very simple solution when it comes to doping/steroids: let everyone use it.
How fun would that be? Watching 50 shot rallies every point.

:rolleyes:

First time I use this smilie and it's absolutely worth it.

From what I have heard behind the scenes doping is more a case in tennis than you think. And yes, ATP, WTA and rich federations are covering it up, at worst sending the offender for an "long injury holiday" but help to save the name. If someone else on MTF is in touch with professional tennis probably can confirm my words. But I don't like to listen to such things and I haven't heard any names (or didn't want to listen to them).

I like to trust and just enjoy the fight.

When Nadal was winning everything he was the dope accused one, when Djokovic started to win everything, then he is under the bad light. And how about just accepting some player reaches the peak? They are all the geniuses of tennis, gifted with accuracy, tactic execution, natural stamina better than others who try but fail, cold head to handle everything from saving matchpoints to not getting bored with the constant travels. All of that backed up with a will of hard work. Nobody can handle it for eternity, and nobody does. Guys stay on top for a few years, some can achieve their prime only for 1-2 seasons (Schuettler etc.). Some need to grow mentally for successes (Federer, Djokovic... Murray has enough of talent but not enough of head, why wouldn't he refocus next season and stun us?)

Haven't you felt at least once in your life whatever you touch it's bringing success? Did you dope for that? You only excelled at your work and that's it, but you seemed to be carried on with the wind of greatness. Well, then accept this is those guys' work and they are also entitled to stay in a dream they don't want to wake up. It's an amazing boost of confidence, practically every person who goes out on court to face Djokovic know he's got some superpowers. Yes, it means the opponent will be half a second slower, unhappier, less trusting in self abilities - all in favour of Djokovic. The same aura circled around other players in the past. Do you remember let's say, Hingis? She was pretty invincible at her times, despite having small physical power - but a lot of smartness that made her win matches, and her opponents were quite cooked once they entered the court. Once her streak was broken she started to get defeats also from lesser players than Williams sisters or Davenport, just because they weren't so afraid anymore.

It's a natural turn, will eventually happen to everyone. Poor Fed is even getting spanked by pigeons now.

Another thing that helps Djokovic is - though I hate to say it - the Weak Era. Fed is getting old, can peak only at the most important events for him and Rafa is kind of getting burned out. Haven't you, while watching his matches, thought, "OMG if Ferrer wasn't such a retard he would have won it?" (Monte Carlo) I think Rafa plays worse tennis overall than he used to. He even played a very equal match with another pusher, Devvarman, of all people and if Somdev had been braver at clutch points Rafa could have lost that match as well. Djokovic isn't scared and is turning Rafa's slight downfall into his favour.

Del Potro is permanently injured and gone, Soderling injured and retarded, Berdych retarded and once when he could beat Nole (Dubai) got injured. Murray - so far the toughest match up but choked like a mug when he had a match in his hands, you can't blame Nole for another player throwing an essential ball out when the court is open.

Please, think a little before you accuse someone.

Your attitude is a bit naďve, in my humble opinion.

Perfect system IMO.

Has the appearance (to the casual fan....meaning most people) of tough drug testing.

The reality is that it is perfectly easy to evade for all the players.

Perfect. Everybody wins.

Except for the fans.

I imagine over half of the top players dope

Yeah, I think you might be quite right.

Why aren't other sports organizations as good as ATP at doing this?

As bad, you mean?

peribsen
05-18-2011, 10:23 PM
Of course, then there's Nadal's coaching during matches.

Funny how you never seem to notice when other players cross words with their teams. Your double standards are appaling.

MayerFan
05-18-2011, 10:23 PM
I will apologize in advance for what I'm about to say. It is well known that players from North and South America are the ones that have been implicated in doping in the past. So I'm not too concerned about the likes of Federer, Nadal, Djokovic and Murray draging the sport we all love in the mud.

Maybe you should refrain from saying something like this.

Works a lot better than apologising.

shuhrat
05-18-2011, 10:30 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jon_wertheim/05/18/mailbag/index.html

I thought the way you brought up PEDs last week was pretty diplomatic. I feel, like many of your readers, that you are lagging behind on the topic of doping. And I am trying to figure out what the reason for that is, since it seems more than reasonable to be suspicious, both because of specific individuals and because of the reality that PEDs are encroaching on nearly every major sport. Those of us in the general public can do nothing more than speculate. But journalists can and should investigate, and that includes actively investigating this, asking uncomfortable questions, and risking some relationships.
I'm curious, do you feel it's the case that your position compromises you on this story? It seems to me that it really leaves you with little incentive to do journalistic due diligence. Tennis is already at an all-time low in popularity in the U.S. Why would you undermine it further by exploring this? What's more, you have many sources and ties among players, why would you go after them? Especially if the problem is widespread rather than just a few bad apples. I'm not accusing you of a conspiracy, just of an understandable tendency to try to wish this away. Curious to hear your thoughts on this. --Tobin, Boston, Mass.

• First, just to be clear from last week: I am accusing no one of doping. I am making no insinuations. Personally, I am inclined to believe that tennis is, while not entirely clean, overwhelming clean. (More on this below.) But, sadly, an offshoot of the last decade in sports is that virtually every achievement in sports -- whether it's winning tennis matches or winning a UFC fight; hitting home runs or hitting a golf ball -- triggers skepticism in some quarters. It's stinks. It's unfair. But this is consequence of Marion Jones and Floyd Landis and the rest of the bunch. They are the Shoe Bombers and today's athletes are the ones getting groped in the security line. Reader Iliya Pavlovich, Ph.D., of Miami angrily wrote me: "I don't remember anybody asking such questions regarding Ivan Lendl, John McEnroe, Andre Agassi." That's my point exactly. In another era, fans freely celebrated (or at least acknowledged) excellence. It was accepted that athletes can develop muscles from eating right and lifting weights. That stamina can improve with extra cardio sessions. That, statistically, home run totals or sprint times or tennis rankings can improve organically.

So I know that a lot of you think I'm too soft on the issue of doping in tennis. Not a week goes by when I don't get an email informing me that my head is in the sand. (Or somewhere else comparatively less pleasant.) We could go on for hours about this, but maybe it's easiest if I just outline where I stand: I think tennis is neither clean nor dirty, neither drug-free nor a cesspool. It's foolish to try and quantify doping, but I think the vast majority of players are clean. Some of this is based on anecdote. Some of this is informed opinion. Some of this is logistical. (It's harder to cheat when you're on the road so much.) Some of this is the incentive structure. (My strong suspicion is that the bulk of the cheaters are players ranked, say, 200 trying to get to 80; less the players ranked in the top 15 trying to become top three.) Some of this is because the testing procedure -- while imperfect and not without loopholes -- is still more rigorous than in other sports. Some of this is because, in the absence of a credible union, cheating players know that, if caught, they have a hell of a fight on their hands.

Apart from the legal implications, I think that speculating about specific players is wrong. Is there a more damning allegation you can level against an athlete than saying they don't play fair? They corrupt competition? Their gains were ill-gotten? If you're going to toss around specific charges, you need to be right.

To Tobin's point, journalists should investigate. But what does this mean? Investigate what? Time and resources are finite. And we're talking about a confidential process and an inherently secretive act. How much attention to do you want to devote to this? That's a choice each journalist has to make. Having spent a lot of time and effort chasing rumors that turned out to be bogus, I try to be judicious here. If I catch wind of something or have a source suggesting I poke around, it's one thing. If the "evidence" is a photo showing a prominent vein, or a player winning back-to-back three-setters, I'm less inclined to investigate.

This I can assure you: This is not about managing relationships or covering for sources or self-preservation. That's the journalism equivalent of using PEDs.

ballbasher101
05-18-2011, 10:43 PM
No sport is clean but in my view tennis is cleaner than most. I'm biased of course ;) but I do think tennis is cleaner than say cycling and athletics. Accusing someone without evidence is offensive and wrong to say the least as some have pointed out.

MIMIC
05-18-2011, 10:48 PM
How come? Honestly...

It obviously does. 90% of power in tennis comes from good footwork, being in position to hit every shot. The more shots you get perfectly in position, the more you hit the lines.

So, take steroids and you won't make as many UEs? WTF?

Just because you're in a good position doesn't mean you won't hit the ball out or into the net.

MayerFan
05-18-2011, 10:53 PM
So, take steroids and you won't make as many UEs? WTF?

Just because you're in a good position doesn't mean you won't hit the ball out or into the net.

I'm sorry if I put this the wrong way but if you can't understand this, you haven't ever played tennis.

Being in position is 90% of making a shot. If you're out of position, that percentage lowers considerably. It's only too obvious.

Also, I can't understand why you brought up steroids to this issue. I don't think that's the drug of choice in sports like tennis. HGH and blood doping are probably far more common, I'd humbly say.

tnosugar
05-18-2011, 10:59 PM
So, take steroids and you won't make as many UEs? WTF?

Just because you're in a good position doesn't mean you won't hit the ball out or into the net.

it doesn't, but it significantly ups your chances of it hitting it well. positioning for a shot is 50%, the other 50% is execution.

btw, the discussion is great... lots of people who know their stuff here. my skepticism has just been revived. as someone said, the gradual ascent and decline in a players career is missing in most players.

in djokovic's case, the ascent was stable and then came the post-AO dip which was emotional/psychological in nature, plus the nasal deformity that hindered the breathing. my impression is he just picked up where he should have been a year ago.

as for physical condition and stamina, there are many natural ways to achieve them, but their basic component is discipline (in all aspects of life...what you eat, drink, when you sleep, how you work out, etc.). Roid users are usually the kind of people who lack this discipline and need the shortcuts.

tnosugar
05-18-2011, 11:02 PM
HGH and blood doping are probably far more common, I'd humbly say.

depends what you want to achieve...

moon language
05-18-2011, 11:05 PM
Equating legal advantages (like height, more money for equipment, better access to facilities), to ILLEGAL advantages (taking PEDs) is a fake argument.


In most cases the legal advantages (money), can be overcome (ie. Williams sisters). The Illegal advantages are much more difficult to overcome (if your opponent has unlimited stamina).

What next, one player can get unlimmited breaks for recuperation ? Some players can stand closer to the net for serving ?... There are rules for a reason.

I notice that the fans of certain players are arguing that PEDs use isn't unfair. I wonder why (do they suspect their favorite player is using ?)?

The post of yours that I was responding to stated "The odds that the results would be EXACTLY the same if everyone is doped versus everyone is not doped is virtually zero."

My point is that those odds are ALWAYS zero. There is no level playing field, legal or not. The notion of a legal playing field is irrelevant to the issue of doping. Health concerns are the big problem.

oranges
05-18-2011, 11:08 PM
So, take steroids and you won't make as many UEs? WTF?

Just because you're in a good position doesn't mean you won't hit the ball out or into the net.

But it does mean you will do it less often than you would if your footwork and movement were worse. There's no doubt about it, because, to elaborate on your point, if you're out of position, you're most definitely screwed.

Just because tennis is less reliant on athleticism than cycling and the similar, this naive idea it means it's virtually drug free is beyond ridiculous. What's worse, I don't think they test for blood doping at all, even though it's clear to the blind how it would be EXTREMELY beneficial.

Vida
05-18-2011, 11:17 PM
it doesn't, but it significantly ups your chances of it hitting it well. positioning for a shot is 50%, the other 50% is execution.

btw, the discussion is great... lots of people who know their stuff here. my skepticism has just been revived. as someone said, the gradual ascent and decline in a players career is missing in most players.

in djokovic's case, the ascent was stable and then came the post-AO dip which was emotional/psychological in nature, plus the nasal deformity that hindered the breathing. my impression is he just picked up where he should have been a year ago.

as for physical condition and stamina, there are many natural ways to achieve them, but their basic component is discipline (in all aspects of life...what you eat, drink, when you sleep, how you work out, etc.). Roid users are usually the kind of people who lack this discipline and need the shortcuts.

sounds quite sensible. question stands where does this gluten allergy come from. I mean he was allergic last year in spring, but I thought that had more to do with spring time - which makes sense along the breathing thing, but pizza pasta and stuff have nothing to do with time, cause I figure they ate pasta all year. I mean there was no evidence of that particular screwup, meaning it affected everything else.

most probably though both gluten allergy, which I doubt can be easily detected, and breathing thing combined with asthma and wht not, pushed altogether in extreme conditions - and there are some, expressed in his emotional/psychological nature; and vice versa.

the list of ailments is so long that looking back, the 'coming together' appears truly incredible.

MIMIC
05-18-2011, 11:40 PM
I'm sorry if I put this the wrong way but if you can't understand this, you haven't ever played tennis.

Being in position is 90% of making a shot. If you're out of position, that percentage lowers considerably. It's only too obvious.

Also, I can't understand why you brought up steroids to this issue. I don't think that's the drug of choice in sports like tennis. HGH and blood doping are probably far more common, I'd humbly say.

My point is that even if you are set up for a shot, there's no guarantee that you're going to hit it over the net or do something substantial and meaningful with the ball. Murry has no trouble tracking down balls....so if he started doping, is he going to start painting the lines more just because of an enhancement of footwork?

Or let's take a "ball basher" for example. Are they going to start finding the lines just because they are set up for the shot, even though they just recklessly hit the ball over the net as hard as they can?

MayerFan
05-18-2011, 11:44 PM
My point is that even if you are set up for a shot, there's no guarantee that you're going to hit it over the net or do something substantial and meaningful with the ball. Murry has no trouble tracking down balls....so if he started doping, is he going to start painting the lines more just because of an enhancement of footwork?

What?

Professional players rarely miss shots in position.

Murray moves well but imagine how he'd play if he moved even better?

emotion
05-18-2011, 11:49 PM
The very reason a ballbasher like Gonzalez or (much more) Korolev is inconsistent is no one has the stamina or endurance to manage to consistently hit the lines hard for several consecutive matches

MIMIC
05-18-2011, 11:58 PM
What?

Professional players rarely miss shots in position.

Murray moves well but imagine how he'd play if he moved even better?

Is movement something that's going to make Murray's game substantially better? He needs doping that helps his BRAIN more than anything.

If he got to the ball quicker and was set up better (as if he isn't already) how would it make ANDY MURRAY better? My guess is he'd just have more time to push. It's not going to give him any more accuracy than he had before....just more time to do what he already does.

philosophicalarf
05-19-2011, 12:21 AM
It doesn't work that way. They could test you whenever they want. Even if you are on a "deathbed".

...and as above, you just give a fake location, with basically no consequences. See the leaked 2009 document, Del Potro, Nadal, the Williams, etc etc skipping out of competition tests before slams.

Last year there were all of 123 out of competition tests. What's more, 117 of those were urine tests (ie basically useless).

For emphasis: the entire professional tour, singles and doubles, had only 6 useful out of competition tests in a year.


SIX TESTS. In a year.

Could they make it any more of a farce?


http://www.itftennis.com/antidoping/news/statistics.asp

MayerFan
05-19-2011, 12:25 AM
Is movement something that's going to make Murray's game substantially better? He needs doping that helps his BRAIN more than anything.

If he got to the ball quicker and was set up better (as if he isn't already) how would it make ANDY MURRAY better? My guess is he'd just have more time to push. It's not going to give him any more accuracy than he had before....just more time to do what he already does.

Murray is fast but he's hardly a marvel of endurance.

Of course it's going to give him more accuracy in the long run.

tnosugar
05-22-2011, 05:45 PM
sounds quite sensible. question stands where does this gluten allergy come from. I mean he was allergic last year in spring, but I thought that had more to do with spring time - which makes sense along the breathing thing, but pizza pasta and stuff have nothing to do with time, cause I figure they ate pasta all year. I mean there was no evidence of that particular screwup, meaning it affected everything else.

most probably though both gluten allergy, which I doubt can be easily detected, and breathing thing combined with asthma and wht not, pushed altogether in extreme conditions - and there are some, expressed in his emotional/psychological nature; and vice versa.

the list of ailments is so long that looking back, the 'coming together' appears truly incredible.

I've personally witnessed people who tested themselves for nutritional allergens.

They analyse your blood, see which kind food components you don't have anti-bodies for or clog up your metabolism, and just eliminate the food stuffs that contain them from your diet.

Suddenly you get fresher, lose weight, etc etc. Simply because your body is functioning 100%.

http://www.naturalways.com/alergy1.htm