Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011 [Archive] - Page 2 - MensTennisForums.com

Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011

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Crvena Zvezda
03-08-2011, 07:57 PM
Yes thatīs right, the player who commits after the deadline has passed comes after the players who committed on time :p

What do you call tournament deadline ? The others ALT commited after single deadline, I commited after changes period. We are all LE.

I see nothing in the rules justifying a difference.

l_mac
03-08-2011, 08:01 PM
What do you call tournament deadline ? The others ALT commited after single deadline, I commited after changes period. We are all LE.

I see nothing in the rules justifying a difference.

You commited after the 2nd deadline. I just assumed you would be after the people who commited within the LE period. I don't know if it's a rule, it just seems logical (to me) I have no problem if a board member says my interpretation is incorrect :shrug:

To be clear: the other 5 alts were all late entries who commited after the 1st deadline, and ghan commited after the 2nd deadline.

Crvena Zvezda
03-08-2011, 08:04 PM
You commited after the 2nd deadline. I just assumed you would be after the people who commited within the LE period. I don't know if it's a rule, it just seems logical (to me) I have no problem if a board member says my interpretation is incorrect :shrug:

To be clear: the other 5 alts were all late entries who commited after the 1st deadline, and ghan commited after the 2nd deadline.

What do you call "LE period", I didn't see anything in the rules like a term of LE commitments except maybe drawing time.

-Evita-
03-08-2011, 08:05 PM
What do you call tournament deadline ? The others ALT commited after single deadline, I commited after changes period. We are all LE.

I see nothing in the rules justifying a difference.

I don't think you're even allowed to commit after the second deadline because that's when managers do the qualifying draws and they need to know before that who's playing.

l_mac
03-08-2011, 08:09 PM
I don't think you're even allowed to commit after the second deadline because that's when managers do the qualifying draws and they need to know before that who's playing.

Players who commit after 2nd deadline are always alts, and aren't allowed to be LEs even if there are spaces left in qualifying.

I don't know if this situation has ever popped up before. I just want clarification because I don't think all the alts will get into the draw, and I want to be sure of the order.

Boarder35m
03-08-2011, 08:10 PM
This is the rule


Players who commit after the final deadline and players who are only in the doubles list:

They can be alternates for the qualifying draw or MD if there was no qualifying.


This means that there is a difference between a player who comits after the 1st but before the 2nd deadline and a player who commits after the 2nd deadline (like ghan in Indian Wells)

l_mac
03-08-2011, 09:57 PM
So is ghan the player that is going to miss out on an alt spot?

I want to be sure about this.

Goldenoldie
03-08-2011, 10:10 PM
I agree with Alex. There is a difference between the two categories of late commitment, and in my view ghan misses out.

Sorry, by the way, that I was missing at the critical time, but I think it is right that dannyrater's picks should be accepted.

<Eve>
03-08-2011, 11:39 PM
Alright, the first storm of IW is over so time to pop in with my question.

I'm running the Rabat CH in the 2nd week of IW and there will be some issues with the entry lists as there are 1 or more players in my single qualies list that also play IW, and more that are already in MD Rabat.

As Scoobs mentioned to me, I could decide that if a player wins their R64 singles match or their R64 doubles match (so end of Friday's play) then they can't play my tournament if they need to be qualifying. And if they win their R32 singles match or R32 doubles match (end of Sunday's play) then they can't play my MD.

This could mean I would have everyone to send in picks, and maybe (because of the 8H time difference) have to do the final entry lists after full results when maybe play has started in Rabat?

l_mac
03-09-2011, 04:55 PM
Because only a few people answered me and seemed to agree with my thought process, I gave the alt place to the lower ranked player who had commited before the 2nd deadline.

ghan is not happy about this.

abollo
03-09-2011, 09:02 PM
Sao Jose is cancelled

keqtqiadv
03-09-2011, 09:59 PM
Alright, the first storm of IW is over so time to pop in with my question.

I'm running the Rabat CH in the 2nd week of IW and there will be some issues with the entry lists as there are 1 or more players in my single qualies list that also play IW, and more that are already in MD Rabat.

As Scoobs mentioned to me, I could decide that if a player wins their R64 singles match or their R64 doubles match (so end of Friday's play) then they can't play my tournament if they need to be qualifying. And if they win their R32 singles match or R32 doubles match (end of Sunday's play) then they can't play my MD.

This could mean I would have everyone to send in picks, and maybe (because of the 8H time difference) have to do the final entry lists after full results when maybe play has started in Rabat?
Correct. Hopefully it won't be as hard as it seems to be :p Not all the players will be alive in IW, and some of the IW matches might already be decided by the time you post the draws and the oop.
Because only a few people answered me and seemed to agree with my thought process, I gave the alt place to the lower ranked player who had commited before the 2nd deadline.

ghan is not happy about this.
The proccess is correct. Players who commit after the second deadline go to the bottom of the list.
Sao Jose is cancelled
The challenger? :unsure:

<Eve>
03-09-2011, 10:29 PM
Correct. Hopefully it won't be as hard as it seems to be :p Not all the players will be alive in IW, and some of the IW matches might already be decided by the time you post the draws and the oop.Thanks, will do it like this then! :yeah:

_A_
03-09-2011, 10:38 PM
Sao Jose is cancelled

and what will be with TT San Jose?

thanks :wavey:

dinkulpus
03-09-2011, 10:52 PM
and what will be with TT San Jose?

thanks :wavey:

Just an idea.
There are challenger in Canada in this week, it can be change only the name :wavey:

Belludal
03-09-2011, 11:03 PM
Just an idea.
There are challenger in Canada in this week, it can be change only the name :wavey:

I agree with this idea! :wavey:

Labamba
03-09-2011, 11:31 PM
Sao Jose is cancelled

São Jose Dos Campos :p

and what will be with TT San Jose?

thanks :wavey:

San Jose is played like normal

Just an idea.
There are challenger in Canada in this week, it can be change only the name :wavey:

wrong week ;)

Labamba
03-09-2011, 11:34 PM
this week :cool:


Date Tournament Surface Draw(S/QS/D/QD) Manager

28/03/2011 Barletta CH CL 32/16/16/8 scoobs
28/03/2011 St. Brieuc CH ICL 32/16/16/8 Goldenoldie
28/03/2011 Barranquilla CH CL 32/16/16/8 Belludal

Labamba
03-09-2011, 11:37 PM
new TT tournaments will be available on Friday :wavey:

Nixer
03-09-2011, 11:52 PM
nevermind ;)

BrunoBeidacki
03-09-2011, 11:58 PM
The problem is that we confused SAN JOSE with SAO JOSE

-Evita-
03-10-2011, 07:39 AM
I just heard that some managers sometimes set the picks deadline different from the official OOP although the rules don't allow it. Why? I was always under the impression that the official deadline is the one that matters and managers can't change it. Here's the rule:

Managers will set a deadline at which no more picks will be allowed, even if a point hasn't been played. The deadline will be taken from the official order of play and set at a time when the first match begins.

So what's the situation here? Why isn't this rule being enforced??? :confused: I don't think it's a good idea to allow managers to set any deadline they want - but even if the board thinks it's a good idea it has to be in the rules. Right now it's not so I don't understand what's happening here.

Deathless Mortal
03-10-2011, 08:32 AM
I just heard that some managers sometimes set the picks deadline different from the official OOP although the rules don't allow it. Why? I was always under the impression that the official deadline is the one that matters and managers can't change it. Here's the rule:



So what's the situation here? Why isn't this rule being enforced??? :confused: I don't think it's a good idea to allow managers to set any deadline they want - but even if the board thinks it's a good idea it has to be in the rules. Right now it's not so I don't understand what's happening here.

Where have you been? It has happened a lot lately.
A player sends his picks before the official OOP but the managers don't accept it because they set an earlier deadline.
The board was always behind the managers on this one no matter how retarded that is.

-Evita-
03-10-2011, 09:17 AM
Where have you been? It has happened a lot lately.
A player sends his picks before the official OOP but the managers don't accept it because they set an earlier deadline.
The board was always behind the managers on this one no matter how retarded that is.

I hadn't subscribed to this thread so I didn't notice :o But better late than never.

As I understand it, the role of the TT board is to organize tournaments, help managers, propose and implement rule changes in the off-season and make decisions in case a situation arises that isn't described in the rules. The TT board doesn't have the authority to say "let's ignore this rule for this tournament", do they? What would we need the rules for then? We wouldn't need them at all. If I miss the first deadline and I don't want to be a LE, I'll just ask the board to confirm that my commitment should be regarded as normal. Doesn't matter that it's against the rules, the board has the ultimate power, right? :rolleyes: That would be really stupid.

And what's more, Goldenoldie said that he's been doing it since last year. So why wasn't the rule change proposed in the off-season if some managers felt the current rule didn't work well? Sorry, I just don't get it. And I don't think the rule should be changed at all - the deadline should be whenever the first match starts. If the manager can't post differences at that time, well, nothing we can do about it. Players can exchange picks and the manager can post differences 2 hours later or 5 hours later or whenever. Late differences shouldn't be a reason to move up the deadline.

scoobs
03-10-2011, 09:28 AM
What exactly is the problem with this? We're talking an hour or two before the deadline usually, for the convenience of the manager, so that they can post the diffs - because when play starts they may not be around to do so and diffs therefore might not be posted for several hours after play commences.

I agree this isn't something that should be used all the time where avoidable but sometimes managers need the flexibility to set a different deadline in the best interests of running the tournament smoothly. Surely when a player checks the thread daily to get the OOP and find out what's PTS, what are SRs, they can make a note of the deadline - if it's earlier than the start of play, and there's still a decent window in which to do picks, and it's very clearly flagged up that it's an early deadline, then what's the problem?

Speaking personally, although when I manage a tournament I'm nearly always likely to be around for the start of play, there are times when I'm unexpectedly called into meetings or onto a client site at a couple of day's notice and won't be around to post the diffs on the start of play. Personally I think it's better to set a deadline a couple of hours early and get the diffs out than to stick rigidly to the start of play deadline and get the diffs out several hours after play has already begun, but perhaps the board should issue clear and unambiguous guidelines on this - one of them mentioned changing that wording back in January but this hasn't been done as yet.

-Evita-
03-10-2011, 09:36 AM
What exactly is the problem with this?

For me, the problem is that it's against the rules. I've read the rules and I've always been 100% convinced that the deadline is when the play starts so I often don't check the manager's deadline. I've had no reason to, they are supposed to be the same with no exceptions :shrug:

scoobs
03-10-2011, 09:37 AM
For me, the problem is that it's against the rules. I've read the rules and I've always been 100% convinced that the deadline is when the play starts so I often don't check the manager's deadline. I've had no reason to :shrug:

So how do you check the OOP then and know what matches to send and in what priority? The deadline is right there in the manager's OOP.

Deathless Mortal
03-10-2011, 09:42 AM
I hadn't subscribed to this thread so I didn't notice :o But better late than never.

As I understand it, the role of the TT board is to organize tournaments, help managers, propose and implement rule changes in the off-season and make decisions in case a situation arises that isn't described in the rules. The TT board doesn't have the authority to say "let's ignore this rule for this tournament", do they? What would we need the rules for then? We wouldn't need them at all. If I miss the first deadline and I don't want to be a LE, I'll just ask the board to confirm that my commitment should be regarded as normal. Doesn't matter that it's against the rules, the board has the ultimate power, right? :rolleyes: That would be really stupid.

And what's more, Goldenoldie said that he's been doing it since last year. So why wasn't the rule change proposed in the off-season if some managers felt the current rule didn't work well? Sorry, I just don't get it. And I don't think the rule should be changed at all - the deadline should be whenever the first match starts. If the manager can't post differences at that time, well, nothing we can do about it. Players can exchange picks and the manager can post differences 2 hours later or 5 hours later or whenever. Late differences shouldn't be a reason to move up the deadline.

Exactly.


What exactly is the problem with this? We're talking an hour or two before the deadline usually, for the convenience of the manager, so that they can post the diffs - because when play starts they may not be around to do so and diffs therefore might not be posted for several hours after play commences.

I agree this isn't something that should be used all the time where avoidable but sometimes managers need the flexibility to set a different deadline in the best interests of running the tournament smoothly. Surely when a player checks the thread daily to get the OOP and find out what's PTS, what are SRs, they can make a note of the deadline - if it's earlier than the start of play, and there's still a decent window in which to do picks, and it's very clearly flagged up that it's an early deadline, then what's the problem?

Speaking personally, although when I manage a tournament I'm nearly always likely to be around for the start of play, there are times when I'm unexpectedly called into meetings or onto a client site at a couple of day's notice and won't be around to post the diffs on the start of play. Personally I think it's better to set a deadline a couple of hours early and get the diffs out than to stick rigidly to the start of play deadline and get the diffs out several hours after play has already begun, but perhaps the board should issue clear and unambiguous guidelines on this - one of them mentioned changing that wording back in January but this hasn't been done as yet.

I feel it's harsh to the players who didn't see the early deadline for whatever reason, but they sent the picks before play has actually started.
For example: you saw the ATP OOP and it said the play starts at 11am CET, and you had to leave before the managers have put the OOP for TT, knowing you'll be back before 11am to make your picks. You come back at let's say 10:30, just in time to make your picks but you see the managers have set an earlier deadline and your picks won't be counted even though your picks were actually on time.
That is harsh and unnecessary. Not everybody can be online and on this site for the whole time.

-Evita-
03-10-2011, 09:42 AM
So how do you check the OOP then and know what matches to send and in what priority? The deadline is right there in the manager's OOP.

Yeah, usually I read it when I check the TT OOP. But sometimes I forget it. I copy the OOP to Notepad (to make my picks sometime later) and I close the MTF page. If I later forget the deadline I sometimes go back to the TT thread and sometimes I check the official OOP. I don't know, I haven't really paid attention to it, as I said I always assumed they would be the same. And they should be the same under the current rules. I'm not saying your arguments are not valid but these are arguments for a rule change, not how to operate currently.

Edit: The scenario Deathless Mortal describes above is also a valid one.

scoobs
03-10-2011, 09:45 AM
I'm sorry but I vehemently disagree. There is nothing to interpret about the rule. In the earlier years it was allowed to send picks after the deadline if play hadn't started yet - if there was a rain delay, for example. That's why the first part of the rule states that no picks will be allowed after the deadline. And the second part states what the deadline should be. There's nothing to interpret there.

Like I wrote in the managers thread, it isn't the end of the world if the differences are a couple of hours late. If the majority of players feel they would rather move up the deadline than wait for differences, that's fine but the rule needs changing then. You can't do that under the current rule.

Well you can say that all you like but a) I disagree that there's nothing to interpret. Evidently there is if plenty of other managers, including Labamba, who is on the TT board and did this for the Hopman Cup, have needed to set earlier deadlines in order to make the tournament more smoothly.

The rule states:
- Managers will set a deadline at which no more picks will be allowed, even if a point hasn't been played. The deadline will be taken from the official order of play and set at a time when the first match begins.

I argued then and I argue now that the first part of this contradicts the second.

Managers will set a deadline at which no more picks will be allowed, even if a point hasn't been played.

But if the tournament OOP's start of play is THE DEADLINE, then there is no manager setting a deadline, the deadline is already set by the tournament's OOP.

The deadline will be taken from the official order of play and set at a time when the first match begins.

This is fairly explicit but as I say, contradicts at least partially the first part, and I think the overall wording here is too ambiguous.

The reality is that I'm not the first manager who has set an early deadline to make things run more smoothly - at least 2 of the current TT board have done so and therefore there's precedence that is arguing against that rule being applied the way you believe it should be. I can recall early deadlines being set from when I first starting playing TT back in 2009, this is not a new situation.

At the time I had this incident, in January, I asked for the wording on this to be cleared up and the question of whether early deadlines are allowed and if so, under what circumstances, to be made explicit. This has not yet been done so.

scoobs
03-10-2011, 09:51 AM
I feel it's harsh to the players who didn't see the early deadline for whatever reason, but they sent the picks before play has actually started.
For example: you saw the ATP OOP and it said the play starts at 11am CET, and you had to leave before the managers have put the OOP for TT, knowing you'll be back before 11am to make your picks. You come back at let's say 10:30, just in time to make your picks but you see the managers have set an earlier deadline and your picks won't be counted even though your picks were actually on time.
That is harsh and unnecessary. Not everybody can be online and on this site for the whole time.

Well I tell you what I think is harsh.

I think it's harsh to expect a TT manager to be available for 9 days of a tournament at a time when the deadline is due to pass - especially given that THEY don't know when the start of play will be until late the previous day. Frankly it means we're expected to just avoid any outside commitments so that we're not inconveniencing the one or two players for whom the 12 or 13 hour window wasn't quite enough, they MUST have that extra 30 minutes or 1 hour in which to get their picks in.

The alternative is posting diffs, potentially 5 or 6 hours late, and I tell you something, in my TT experience there's FAR more complaints about managers not being around to post diffs in a timely manner than there are about missing the deadline because it was earlier than the start of play. Hell, people start jumping up and down when they're 30 or 45 minutes late...

-Evita-
03-10-2011, 09:55 AM
I argued then and I argue now that the first part of this contradicts the second.

Managers will set a deadline at which no more picks will be allowed, even if a point hasn't been played.

But if the tournament OOP's start of play is THE DEADLINE, then there is no manager setting a deadline, the deadline is already set by the tournament's OOP.

The deadline will be taken from the official order of play and set at a time when the first match begins.

This is fairly explicit but as I say, contradicts at least partially the first part, and I think the overall wording here is too ambiguous.

The point of the first part is that there will be a deadline after which no picks are accepted. Maybe it is a bit awkward wording because Murilo's native language isn't English but that's the point of that sentence. In contrast to earlier years when there was no fixed deadline and people could send picks up to the point when play actually started. The "manager sets the deadline" means that the manager will write the deadline with the OOP, not that manager can choose the deadline. I think it's pretty clear when you look at both sentences together.

I hope Murilo can come here and clear it up.

scoobs
03-10-2011, 09:56 AM
The point of the first part is that there will be a deadline after which no picks are accepted. Maybe it is a bit awkward wording because Murilo's native language isn't English but that's the point of that sentence. In contrast to earlier years when there was no fixed deadline and people could send picks up to the point when play actually started. The "manager sets the deadline" means that the manager will write the deadline with the OOP, not that manager can choose the deadline. I think it's pretty clear when you look at both sentences together.

I hope Murilo can come here and clear it up.

Well you keep saying that it seems pretty clear but evidently I don't agree with you and nor do a number of other managers, including two of whom are on the TT board.

-Evita-
03-10-2011, 10:06 AM
Well I tell you what I think is harsh.

I think it's harsh to expect a TT manager to be available for 9 days of a tournament at a time when the deadline is due to pass - especially given that THEY don't know when the start of play will be until late the previous day. Frankly it means we're expected to just avoid any outside commitments so that we're not inconveniencing the one or two players for whom the 12 or 13 hour window wasn't quite enough, they MUST have that extra 30 minutes or 1 hour in which to get their picks in.

The alternative is posting diffs, potentially 5 or 6 hours late, and I tell you something, in my TT experience there's FAR more complaints about managers not being around to post diffs in a timely manner than there are about missing the deadline because it was earlier than the start of play. Hell, people start jumping up and down when they're 30 or 45 minutes late...

But this is a different issue. Maybe the rule should be changed, maybe not, that's something to discuss in the off-season. Right now we're talking about the current rules.

Well you keep saying that it seems pretty clear but evidently I don't agree with you and nor do a number of other managers, including two of whom are on the TT board.

Like I said, I hope Murilo can clarify it. He's the one who wrote the FAQ so he should know best what the rules actually mean.

Deathless Mortal
03-10-2011, 10:08 AM
Well I tell you what I think is harsh.

I think it's harsh to expect a TT manager to be available for 9 days of a tournament at a time when the deadline is due to pass - especially given that THEY don't know when the start of play will be until late the previous day. Frankly it means we're expected to just avoid any outside commitments so that we're not inconveniencing the one or two players for whom the 12 or 13 hour window wasn't quite enough, they MUST have that extra 30 minutes or 1 hour in which to get their picks in.

The alternative is posting diffs, potentially 5 or 6 hours late, and I tell you something, in my TT experience there's FAR more complaints about managers not being around to post diffs in a timely manner than there are about missing the deadline because it was earlier than the start of play. Hell, people start jumping up and down when they're 30 or 45 minutes late...

So your point is that the managers can't always be available for 9 days of a tournament.. That is correct but why don't you say that to those who would complain about the late differences?
I don't think it should be about how many people complain. Of course people would get frustrated but I think they would all accept the fact that the manager has a real life too and can't be around when the play starts. IMO it should be about what's fair, and not accepting someone's valid picks isn't. Crocodile said he won't be playing anymore because those rules are ruining the game and he has been playing since the early beginnings of tennis tipping. He should be appreciated as a player, and I think that's a bigger problem than a few people complaining about the late differences.

scoobs
03-10-2011, 10:10 AM
But this is a different issue. Maybe the rule should be changed, maybe not, that's something to discuss in the off-season. Right now we're talking about the current rules.

Like I said, I hope Murilo can clarify it. He's the one who wrote the FAQ so he should know best what the rules actually mean.

The sooner this question is settled for once and for all, the better.

scoobs
03-10-2011, 10:17 AM
So your point is that the managers can't always be available for 9 days of a tournament.. That is correct but why don't you say that to those who would complain about the late differences?
I don't think it should be about how many people complain. Of course people would get frustrated but I think they would all accept the fact that the manager has a real life too and can't be around when the play starts. IMO it should be about what's fair, and not accepting someone's valid picks isn't. Crocodile said he won't be playing anymore because those rules are ruining the game and he has been playing since the early beginnings of tennis tipping. He should be appreciated as a player, and I think that's a bigger problem than a few people complaining about the late differences.

Well we're talking about one group complaining (that the deadline was set earlier than the start of play) vs another group complaining (that the diffs were posted many hours after the start of play)

To my mind, the numbers complaining about late diffs far outnumber those complaining about early deadline.

If 2 players are inconvenienced because the deadline was set at 10, not 11 when play starts, then 2 players are inconvenienced. If the deadline is set at 11 and the manager can't post diffs until 5, in a normal week, 32+ players may be inconvenienced depending on what round the tournament is.

And the 2 players are inconvenienced because they haven't checked the tournament thread for the OOP, or didn't take note of a CLEARLY FLAGGED UP early deadline when they did.

To me this is a no-brainer - the deadline should be when the manager says it needs to be and if that inconveniences a couple of players, that's better than inconveniencing dozens of players who may have to wait a long time to get their diffs

-Evita-
03-10-2011, 10:24 AM
Well we're talking about one group complaining (that the deadline was set earlier than the start of play) vs another group complaining (that the diffs were posted many hours after the start of play)

To my mind, the numbers complaining about late diffs far outnumber those complaining about early deadline.

If 2 players are inconvenienced because the deadline was set at 10, not 11 when play starts, then 2 players are inconvenienced. If the deadline is set at 11 and the manager can't post diffs until 5, in a normal week, 32+ players may be inconvenienced depending on what round the tournament is.

And the 2 players are inconvenienced because they haven't checked the tournament thread for the OOP, or didn't take note of a CLEARLY FLAGGED UP early deadline when they did.

To me this is a no-brainer - the deadline should be when the manager says it needs to be and if that inconveniences a couple of players, that's better than inconveniencing dozens of players who may have to wait a long time to get their diffs

First of all, not all managers CLEARLY FLAG UP the deadline. For example, just now in IW (http://www.menstennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=10829618&postcount=450) there was no indication that the deadline was not the same as the official one.

Second of all, I don't think you can compare people complaining about late differences to people complaining they're out of a tournament because their picks are not counted. The first is just an inconvenience, the second is something else entirely.

Deathless Mortal
03-10-2011, 10:25 AM
Well we're talking about one group complaining (that the deadline was set earlier than the start of play) vs another group complaining (that the diffs were posted many hours after the start of play)

To my mind, the numbers complaining about late diffs far outnumber those complaining about early deadline.

If 2 players are inconvenienced because the deadline was set at 10, not 11 when play starts, then 2 players are inconvenienced. If the deadline is set at 11 and the manager can't post diffs until 5, in a normal week, 32+ players may be inconvenienced depending on what round the tournament is.

And the 2 players are inconvenienced because they haven't checked the tournament thread for the OOP, or didn't take note of a CLEARLY FLAGGED UP early deadline when they did.

To me this is a no-brainer - the deadline should be when the manager says it needs to be and if that inconveniences a couple of players, that's better than inconveniencing dozens of players who may have to wait a long time to get their diffs

Seems like you weren't really reading what I said. It shouldn't be about the number of people. People would complain about the late differences but they wouldn't get out of the tournament because of that. A little bit of patience would be good enough for them. Those '2 players' who haven't send the picks before the deadline set by the managers maybe COULDN'T HAVE BEEN AROUND to see that the manager has indeed set an early deadline, still sending before the 1st point was played but getting disqualified because of that.

scoobs
03-10-2011, 10:41 AM
First of all, not all managers CLEARLY FLAG UP the deadline. For example, just now in IW (http://www.menstennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=10829618&postcount=450) there was no indication that the deadline was not the same as the official one.

Second of all, I don't think you can compare people complaining about late differences to people complaining they're out of a tournament because their picks are not counted. The first is just an inconvenience, the second is something else entirely.

Well all managers, in my opinion, should clearly flag up an early deadline, this is what I was told, this is what Labamba did in Hopman Cup. But even if they don't, I don't see why it would be a big deal for people to expect that the manager's deadline is the one that counts.

Secondly, you might say they not comparable but I disagree - to a manager, it's not better to have lots of people complain about very late differences because you couldn't be flexible with the deadline, than it is to have one or two people complain because they needed every minute up until the start of play to send their picks.

<Eve>
03-10-2011, 10:42 AM
I just started managing but would never manage again if it means i couldnt set deadlines an hour or 2 early. I did early deadlines in Kooyong because the original deadline was 3 in the night my time. No one else took Kooyong i believe because of inconvenient time or whatever other reason, so i did it with the idea of early (1 in the night my time) deadline. Picks were all in at time as people read the thread, i didnt have to stay up till 3 AND people have their differences.

For example I wouldn't want to come back from work and then have the stress to get all the diffs in asap, because I'm already 5 hours late, just because there might be 1 person that wasnt at home for 12 hours and wants to send 5 mins before deadline.. I'd do early deadline of an hour or two. If not, no more managing for me. And I think more managers might feel this way.

Also when I play TT, i want to know the differences. What is nice in playing TT if you only know the diffs and outcome when time has come to make new picks. A part of what I like in TT is knowing the differences and rooting for your man.

scoobs
03-10-2011, 10:46 AM
Seems like you weren't really reading what I said. It shouldn't be about the number of people. People would complain about the late differences but they wouldn't get out of the tournament because of that. A little bit of patience would be good enough for them. Those '2 players' who haven't send the picks before the deadline set by the managers maybe COULDN'T HAVE BEEN AROUND to see that the manager has indeed set an early deadline, still sending before the 1st point was played but getting disqualified because of that.

My point here is, let's make this easier for the players is what I'm hearing - they're busy, they don't have time to check the MTF thread, the OOP might not have been posted, blahblahblah. I'm reading you loud and clear. Fine, I'm all for it.

Where I disagree is, the trouble is, then it puts the managers to huge inconvenience for the sake of an extra hour or two's picking time because one or two pickers are having a busy week. The manager is also having a busy week, he can't be around on one day for the start of play, so he has to post the diffs very late and then deal with all the complaining that he'll potentially get from the other players about being a bad manager - and it happens - I've seen it enough times.

There's a code of conduct, which was approved, which that states that the manager will attempt to post diffs within one hour of the start of play, which is something which will no doubt be brought up in these sorts of scenarios if it's much later than 1 hour.

Ultimately the players have one job to do - check the tournament thread for the OOP, and send picks before the deadline in that that OOP.

The manager has a lot more to do to make these things work and I do not support a situation which further burdens the manager by forcing them to a set start time no matter how personally inconvenient this may be for them on a particular day, and then having to deal with the resulting flak from people complaining about late diffs.

For me personally, this is unworkable, since I find at fairly short notice I may not be around for the deadline on any given day, and I don't see why I should have to deal with a lot of complaining about late diffs because I can't be flexible about the schedule and I'll need to consider whether or not it's worth my while to continue managing. I don't do this to get a lot of hassle.

scoobs
03-10-2011, 10:48 AM
I just started managing but would never manage again if it means i couldnt set deadlines an hour or 2 early. I did early deadlines in Kooyong because the original deadline was 3 in the night my time. No one else took Kooyong i believe because of inconvenient time or whatever other reason, so i did it with the idea of early (1 in the night my time) deadline. Picks were all in at time as people read the thread, i didnt have to stay up till 3 AND people have their differences.

For example I wouldn't want to come back from work and then have the stress to get all the diffs in asap, because I'm already 5 hours late, just because there might be 1 person that wasnt at home for 12 hours and wants to send 5 mins before deadline.. I'd do early deadline of an hour or two. If not, no more managing for me. And I think more managers might feel this way.

Also when I play TT, i want to know the differences. What is nice in playing TT if you only know the diffs and outcome when time has come to make new picks. A part of what I like in TT is knowing the differences and rooting for your man.

I agree entirely with this.

Indeed, I would argue that it's hardly worth even playing TT if you don't know as the matches are taking place, who you need to be rooting for and who you need to win or lose, and by what margin - that's the whole fun part of it. Without that it's pretty much just a paper exercise.

FiBeR
03-10-2011, 10:52 AM
ideally the manager should stick to the OOP deadline and a different deadline should only be an exception.

Also if the manager can wait for missing players' picks and play hasnt started, then there should be a toleration period until all players send (e.g. Rain delay or if there is SB and women's matches are on, if picks are missing hold on the posting and wait for some late turners)

we seek competition, not walkovers when this could be avoided simply by waiting, especially when it is possible to.

orangehat
03-10-2011, 10:55 AM
I personally don't set earlier deadlines (though that is due to a variety of reasons such as I dont post the OOP a lot of the times :lol:).

what we should be looking at now though, is a compromise (because there seems to be a fair bit of discontent and I don't believe this should wait until the off-season).

I propose that early deadlines be accepted, but ONLY up to 1 hour before the first match, and must be CLEARLY indicated (preferably bold, huge font, and in the thread title)

<Eve>
03-10-2011, 10:56 AM
ideally the manager should stick to the OOP deadline and a different deadline should only be an exception.

Also if the manager can wait for missing players' picks and play hasnt started, then there should be a toleration period until all players send (e.g. Rain delay or if there is SB and women's matches are on, if picks are missing hold on the posting and wait for some late turners)
early deadline is set because you cant be around when play officially starts. and when you have the early deadline you will h ave to post the differences then because unless you are a psychic, you can't know whether there will be a rain delay for 3 hours and might be able to post diffs then.... :scratch:

Goldenoldie
03-10-2011, 11:01 AM
As one of the managers who sets early deadlines, I feel I must contribute.

This is what I asked when starting to manage:-

I could do Cremona CH, but I may need to make some of the daily deadlines earlier than official start of play. Would that be acceptable?

This was Labamba's response (second item):-

:cool:



ok :yeah:



Nice it is :)

This is my wording for page 1 in every thread I open.

Picks can be sent in anytime until the beginning of play each day, or in special cases until the deadline set by the manager in order to benefit the majority.

Like scoobs I believe that providing differences is paramount, and if I could not do so until play is nearly finished I would have to consider whether I should be managing.

Deathless Mortal
03-10-2011, 11:03 AM
My point here is, let's make this easier for the players is what I'm hearing - they're busy, they don't have time to check the MTF thread, the OOP might not have been posted, blahblahblah. I'm reading you loud and clear. Fine, I'm all for it.

Where I disagree is, the trouble is, then it puts the managers to huge inconvenience for the sake of an extra hour or two's picking time because one or two pickers are having a busy week. The manager is also having a busy week, he can't be around on one day for the start of play, so he has to post the diffs very late and then deal with all the complaining that he'll potentially get from the other players about being a bad manager - and it happens - I've seen it enough times.

There's a code of conduct, which was approved, which that states that the manager will attempt to post diffs within one hour of the start of play, which is something which will no doubt be brought up in these sorts of scenarios if it's much later than 1 hour.

Ultimately the players have one job to do - check the tournament thread for the OOP, and send picks before the deadline in that that OOP.

The manager has a lot more to do to make these things work and I do not support a situation which further burdens the manager by forcing them to a set start time no matter how personally inconvenient this may be for them on a particular day, and then having to deal with the resulting flak from people complaining about late diffs.

For me personally, this is unworkable, since I find at fairly short notice I may not be around for the deadline on any given day, and I don't see why I should have to deal with a lot of complaining about late diffs because I can't be flexible about the schedule and I'll need to consider whether or not it's worth my while to continue managing. I don't do this to get a lot of hassle.

Shortened, my point is that no player should get disqualified if he did sent picks before the actual deadline. We obviously won't agree.
Players not getting disqualified >>> Players complaining
At least for the important part of it.

scoobs
03-10-2011, 11:07 AM
Shortened, my point is that no player should get disqualified if he did sent picks before the actual deadline. We obviously won't agree.
Players not getting disqualified >>> Players complaining
At least for the important part of it.


Shortened, my point is that the manager's deadline should be the one that matters, not the tournament's start of play on the ATP site, and it should be the responsibility of the players to check this every day and adhere to it. If they can't that's too bad for them but that shouldn't be allowed to inconvenience everyone else in the tournament.

orangehat
03-10-2011, 11:09 AM
Shortened, my point is that no player should get disqualified if he did sent picks before the actual deadline. We obviously won't agree.
Players not getting disqualified >>> Players complaining
At least for the important part of it.

unfortunately that's quite a slippery slope arguement.

so what exactly is the ACTUAL deadline? the OoP time? the time the first ball is struck?
the actual deadline is whatever deadline the manager sets it to be as long as it isnt ridiculous, which is why i proposed up to 1 hour before atp deadline.

-Evita-
03-10-2011, 11:11 AM
I repeat - my issue is that I never thought the manager's deadline could be different from the official start of play so I never paid particular attention to the deadline. I thought the rules were clear about that. I've managed many tournaments and I never thought I could set my own deadline although it would have made it more convenient for me on some occasions. I'd be really thrown if what I thought was a hard rule for more than 2 years now turned out to be a misinterpretation by me. In fact, I'm already thrown by how often this rule seems to be ignored.

I don't like the idea of changing the rule honestly, I feel the managers could start abusing it. But if the rule is changed then it must include the way this deadline must appear different so players would notice. Something like "color: red, font size: at least 4 and must include the phrase: Attention - deadline is different from the official start of play." Something like that should be mandatory. And also at least 10 hours from the time the manager publishes the OOP till the manager's deadline.

orangehat
03-10-2011, 11:16 AM
I repeat - my issue is that I never thought the manager's deadline could be different from the official start of play so I never paid particular attention to the deadline. I thought the rules were clear about that. I've managed many tournaments and I never thought I could set my own deadline although it would have made it more convenient for me on some occasions. I'd be really thrown if what I thought was a hard rule for more than 2 years now turned out to be a misinterpretation by me. In fact, I'm already thrown by how often this rule seems to be ignored.

I don't like the idea of changing the rule honestly, I feel the managers could start abusing it. But if the rule is changed then it must include the way this deadline must appear different so players would notice. Something like "color: red, font size: at least 4 and must include the phrase: Attention - deadline is different from the official start of play." Something like that should be mandatory. And also at least 10 hours from the time the manager publishes the OOP till the manager's deadline.

Agreed, but not about the exploiting part.
With the rule about managers not able to play their own tournaments with the exception of slams/masters/other events there is little room for manipulation. and i'm sure it's not even something that managers want anyway.

-Evita-
03-10-2011, 11:20 AM
Agreed, but not about the exploiting part.
With the rule about managers not able to play their own tournaments with the exception of slams/masters/other events there is little room for manipulation. and i'm sure it's not even something that managers want anyway.

I didn't mean any kind of cheating, I meant that managers could get used to this freedom and start setting their own deadlines too often. It should be the exception, not the normal way things are done.

Goldenoldie
03-10-2011, 11:29 AM
I personally don't set earlier deadlines (though that is due to a variety of reasons such as I dont post the OOP a lot of the times :lol:).

what we should be looking at now though, is a compromise (because there seems to be a fair bit of discontent and I don't believe this should wait until the off-season).

I propose that early deadlines be accepted, but ONLY up to 1 hour before the first match, and must be CLEARLY indicated (preferably bold, huge font, and in the thread title)

I'm all in favour of compromise but this wouldn't work for me personally.

Take a typical European challenger which I would manage:-
Saturday and Sunday qualifiers - no problem, I can post at start of play.
Monday - usually no problem. I need to leave home just after 10.00 a.m. CET, but this usually coincides with start of play.
Tuesday to Thursday - no problem, I can post at start of play.
Friday -big problem - often the start of play is midday or 1.00 p.m. and I leave at 10.00 a.m., 2 or 3 hours before start of play, and do not return until 6.00 p.m. This is TT semi-finals day, and the choice is early deadline or no differences until play is over, or almost over.
Saturday and Sunday - no problem.

This season I have started taking tournaments in different time zones to avoid the conflict, but I'd still like a few tournaments where I don't have to get up in the middle of the night.

Deathless Mortal
03-10-2011, 11:29 AM
unfortunately that's quite a slippery slope arguement.

so what exactly is the ACTUAL deadline? the OoP time? the time the first ball is struck?
the actual deadline is whatever deadline the manager sets it to be as long as it isnt ridiculous, which is why i proposed up to 1 hour before atp deadline.

By actual deadline I meant the deadline on the ATP OOP, of course. I think I've made some good arguments through my previous posts here. And you're proposing the 1 hour rule, but what if the manager can't even post the differences then? I don't think that's a solution. As I said people would have to have patience but at, least in my opinion, that's better than throwing people out of the tournaments because they have a life and can't be here waiting for the manager to post the OOP with his own deadline.

orangehat
03-10-2011, 12:05 PM
No, you believe that the OoP is the actual deadline. If we want to be technical here, the actual deadline SHOULD be before the 1st point of the 1st match.

Yet we all agree that it is not possible to make that the "actual" deadline because it's unreasonable for the managers to know exactly when the first point was played.

Hence the OoP deadline is an artificial deadline(admittedly a good artificial deadline most of the time), as is the time set by the manager!
So if you really want to argue, the manager deadline is as good a deadline as the OoP deadline!

scoobs
03-10-2011, 12:10 PM
I think there are rules but there has to be some flexibility about how they're applied under certain circumstances - even the law allows takes mitigation into account when it's broken.

If we're going to have RULES and that's it, no appeal, not a single one is open to exception, no discretion under any circumstances, this detracts from the spirit of the GAME and I can see why some players, and managers would choose to walk away.

-Evita-
03-10-2011, 12:40 PM
If we're going to have RULES and that's it, no appeal, not a single one is open to exception, no discretion under any circumstances, this detracts from the spirit of the GAME and I can see why some players, and managers would choose to walk away.

What do you mean? It's the opposite, there were too many exceptions and people didn't like it so the rules were made more strict - like no accepting late picks or picks that were by mistake sent to the wrong person (not a manager). The same is in this case, Crocodile stopped playing because of too much flexibility, not because of too little.

And if someone puts different deadlines every other tournament, it doesn't qualify as an exception anymore so please don't go into hyperboles.

scoobs
03-10-2011, 12:48 PM
What do you mean? It's the opposite, there were too many exceptions and people didn't like it so the rules were made more strict - like no accepting late picks or picks that were by mistake sent to the wrong person (not a manager). The same is in this case, Crocodile stopped playing because of too much flexibility, not because of too little.

And if someone puts different deadlines every other tournament, it doesn't qualify as an exception anymore so please don't go into hyperboles.

What? That sounds like hyperbole to me, so I don't know that you have room to talk :rolleyes:

As for rules and flexibility, we don't need to go to the other extreme, where it's all about the rules and the rules are all that matter - this is supposed to be a game, games need rules and structure, but if that goes too far it kills the spirit of the game.

<Eve>
03-10-2011, 12:58 PM
My suggestion would be that the manager will clearly state beforehand in e.g. the Fact sheet that he/she might have 1 or 2 days in which the deadlines will be different from the OOP, with a max of 2 hours. And also communicate on for example tuesday already if you know that friday's deadline will be a bit early and put this in the TT OOP and thread title.

I remember one of my first (or was it the first?) tournaments I played was one of Goldenoldie. I knew from the beginning deadlines could be somewhat early. I then decided to play the tournament so knew I'd have to take a look at the TT OOP early enough. I really son't see any problem in this.

-Evita-
03-10-2011, 12:58 PM
As for rules and flexibility, we don't need to go to the other extreme, where it's all about the rules and the rules are all that matter - this is supposed to be a game, games need rules and structure, but if that goes too far it kills the spirit of the game.

I don't think anyone is going to any extremes. The fact that it's already happened at least 3 times this year - in Johannesburg (I think) where Crocodile played, in Kooyong and now in IW - shows that this is not a rare situation or an exception and it needs to be dealt with properly. I thought you agreed?

scoobs
03-10-2011, 01:28 PM
I don't think anyone is going to any extremes. The fact that it's already happened at least 3 times this year - in Johannesburg (I think) where Crocodile played, in Kooyong and now in IW - shows that this is not a rare situation or an exception and it needs to be dealt with properly. I thought you agreed?

I agree the rule needs to be clarified, changed if necessary, and then we can move on to argue about something else :)

abollo
03-10-2011, 01:29 PM
I'm a new manager as well a new player, but I have an opinion too

My suggestion would be that the manager will clearly state beforehand in e.g. the Fact sheet that he/she might have 1 or 2 days in which the deadlines will be different from the OOP, with a max of 2 hours. And also communicate on for example tuesday already if you know that friday's deadline will be a bit early and put this in the TT OOP and thread title.

I remember one of my first (or was it the first?) tournaments I played was one of Goldenoldie. I knew from the beginning deadlines could be somewhat early. I then decided to play the tournament so knew I'd have to take a look at the TT OOP early enough. I really son't see any problem in this.

I totally agree with this
Goldenoldie for example in the tournaments he manages he states clearly a couple of days before it that he'll have to make the deadline earlier in the following day or two days after
I think it would be better like -Eve- said to put in the factsheet if the deadline would be early any day of the tournament or not
Also the manager might write it with the results, so when the players check the results and the OOP it is clear.
Just to not mix things up Crocodile's issue was something else. It was in AO not in Johannsburg and the issue there was because the manager set the deadline when a WTA match started because the ATP match was followed by and there was no defined time for the match to start and this was clear and a PM has been sent to all players explaining that. I think this is a different issue than just setting the deadline earlier.

CoolyBri
03-10-2011, 02:17 PM
I can fully understand both sides here.
I think it might be worth to think about two deadlines a day. The first one is the start of play officially stated at the ATP OOP, every pick sent by that time would be counted.
The second one is the "differences deadline": Only players who send by that "different deadline" get their differences.

With these two deadlines everyone's timely picks would be counted and the managers would not need to be around for the start of play - but players who don't send early enough (and their opponents) just don't get their diffs. Usually both deadlines of course should be the same, they only would be different in the case of a manager not being able to be around for the start of play.

orangehat
03-10-2011, 02:19 PM
I can fully understand both sides here.
I think it might be worth to think about two deadlines a day. The first one is the start of play officially stated at the ATP OOP, every pick sent by that time would be counted.
The second one is the "differences deadline": Only players who send by that "different deadline" get their differences.

With these two deadlines everyone's timely picks would be counted and the managers would not need to be around for the start of play - but players who don't send early (and their opponents) just don't get their diffs. Usually both deadlines of course should be the same, they only would be different in the case of a manager not being able to be around for the start of play.

this was what jim originally tried to do -and was vetoed on the basis that those who hadnt sent could gain an advantage by published differences

ibreak4coffee
03-10-2011, 02:38 PM
- Evita - I raised this issue about early deadlines in the off season when I said that it was unfair the code of conduct had more stipulations for managers than players but at the same time many managers were setting deadlines anytime they liked - which was causing issues - and no one else contributed to the discussion except to shoot down all my concerns/ideas (what's new...)

I personally think a manager should be able to set a deadline at a reasonable time relative to the start of play - for many like myself who aren't students and work for a living, meetings and other obligations can come up at short notice and obviously take precedence over an internet game. However, there is always so much complaining that the better solution might be CoolyBri's proposal of a firm deadline and a diffs deadline

On another note, I'd also like to see a new rule implemented in the off-season that anyone complaining about rules and management should "walk the walk" and be a regular manager (-Evita- this isn't at all directed at you - you manage a lot and your contributions to TT are much appreciated). This discussion is indicative of a larger trend over the last year where players feel free to criticize managers for anything, most of time pretty petty stuff. Meanwhile whenever I manage a tournament, many of the same people I see complaining regularly in other threads - who shall remain nameless here - can't even be bothered to send their picks in the correct format :rolleyes:

abollo
03-10-2011, 03:12 PM
I can fully understand both sides here.
I think it might be worth to think about two deadlines a day. The first one is the start of play officially stated at the ATP OOP, every pick sent by that time would be counted.
The second one is the "differences deadline": Only players who send by that "different deadline" get their differences.

With these two deadlines everyone's timely picks would be counted and the managers would not need to be around for the start of play - but players who don't send early enough (and their opponents) just don't get their diffs. Usually both deadlines of course should be the same, they only would be different in the case of a manager not being able to be around for the start of play.

I don't think this is a good idea
here's an exapmle why:
TT singles
A vs. B
TT doubles
C/D vs. A/E
Let's say everyone sent until the manager's deadline except "B" and the manager posted diffs e.g
TT singles
A vs. B - missing picks from B
TT doubles
C/D vs. A/E - Federer x2, Murray x2 vs. Nadal x2, Djokovic x2

And that's for the manager's deadline, but now B could send picks till the official ATP OOP and now he already nows that "A" chose Nadal and Djokovic, which isn't fair for player "A"

l_mac
03-10-2011, 06:18 PM
For me, the problem is that it's against the rules. I've read the rules and I've always been 100% convinced that the deadline is when the play starts so I often don't check the manager's deadline. I've had no reason to, they are supposed to be the same with no exceptions :shrug:

You don't seem to have a problem breaking the rules when it suits you to do so. You said you've posted differences early on several occassions - you absolutely should not do that. A player has the right to change his/her picks up to the deadline. If you're posting everyone's diffs before the deadline any player could change their picks, and you would have to accept them because there is no rule to say that a player can't change their picks if the manager decided to post the differences early.

First of all, not all managers CLEARLY FLAG UP the deadline. For example, just now in IW (http://www.menstennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=10829618&postcount=450) there was no indication that the deadline was not the same as the official one.


I think IW was a genuine mistake on Goldenoldie's part. Tuesday's play started at 10 am and I think he assumed Wednesday would also start at 10am.

Shortened, my point is that the manager's deadline should be the one that matters, not the tournament's start of play on the ATP site, and it should be the responsibility of the players to check this every day and adhere to it. If they can't that's too bad for them but that shouldn't be allowed to inconvenience everyone else in the tournament.
I agree.

-Evita-
03-10-2011, 06:45 PM
You don't seem to have a problem breaking the rules when it suits you to do so. You said you've posted differences early on several occassions - you absolutely should not do that. A player has the right to change his/her picks up to the deadline. If you're posting everyone's diffs before the deadline any player could change their picks, and you would have to accept them because there is no rule to say that a player can't change their picks if the manager decided to post the differences early.

I confess I hadn't thought of it quite that way - probably because nobody tried to change their picks in that short time period :scratch: But you're right, I won't do that.

I think IW was a genuine mistake on Goldenoldie's part. Tuesday's play started at 10 am and I think he assumed Wednesday would also start at 10am.

I know but it doesn't matter. Several managers have been doing this so the rule needs to be clarified.

l_mac
03-10-2011, 06:49 PM
I know but it doesn't matter. Several managers have been doing this so the rule needs to be clarified.

I agree.

keqtqiadv
03-10-2011, 08:59 PM
I hope Murilo can come here and clear it up.
I don't think I was the one who wrote this rule, but it doesn't matter. The way the rule is written was supposed to emphasize the rule change that didn't allow picks which were sent after the manager's deadline, even if a point hadn't been played. Under normal circunstances, the deadline should obviously be the time when the first match is scheduled to start, hence the second part of the rule, but the point is that it wasn't created to restrict managers from using earlier deadlines when necessary. It wasn't its purpose and probably most of us didn't realize the rule could be misleading when we wrote it. I think that's why the early deadlines were permitted, even though the literal interpretation of the rule doesn't seem to allow them.

As scoobs said, we were already working on the clarification of the rule and we'll surely finish it up soon. I must apologize because I actually thought this issue had already been solved, as the discussion was very advanced in January. We were already writing the amendment and for some reason I was under the impression that the rule thread had already been edited.

-Evita-
03-10-2011, 09:16 PM
Wow. So it was all a big misunderstanding that went on for two years? Unbelievable. I would have wished to know this before I started managing, seriously.

I'm not sure what you mean by "working on the clarification"... Is this being decided among the board members? Since January?? Usually there's a separate thread for such discussions so that everyone who has an opinion can voice it. Maybe it would be appropriate here? Otherwise all these discussions get lost in the middle of this thread.

keqtqiadv
03-10-2011, 09:48 PM
I've always known all the rules as they are now, I just didn't realize there was this part that could be understood differently from what the rule actually meant.

And by that I meant the clarification of that particular rule you quoted. It was never meant to restrict managers from using early deadlines, so we were changing its wording so all the confusion it's been causing is cleared, just adding the conditions under which the early deadlines could be used. Whether the early deadlines should stay or not is another problem, and it surely can be discussed here.

-Evita-
03-10-2011, 10:18 PM
I've always known all the rules as they are now, I just didn't realize there was this part that could be understood differently from what the rule actually meant.

I wasn't talking about you, I was talking about myself, obviously I misunderstood the rule. I feel so stupid now. And I still wonder how it is possible that no one realized this for two years... Unbelievable. But when you realized it in January why didn't you alter the FAQ? Just to make it clear that the official deadline isn't mandatory? It seems to me that this needs fixing ASAP and you can add the exceptions and all the detailed conditions later. If the FAQ had been modified then we wouldn't be having this discussion today and everyone would be much happier.

I'm sorry if I seem too accusing or something, I just really feel cheated right now.

Taz Warrior
03-11-2011, 09:14 AM
I haven't fully read all the posts in this discussion as I have a slow internet connection atm but I think I get the gist of what's going on. The following is the draft clarification of the rule that we came up with in January when we realised that there could be some misinterpretation of the existing rule. This is what the rule has been since the start of 2009 (it was changed during the off-season that year following the discussions at the end of the previous year)

The deadline will be taken from the official order of play and set at a time when the first match begins where possible. However, managers may occasionally set an earlier deadline at which no more picks will be allowed if their personal circumstances dictate this and plenty of warning is given.

Managers don't have carte blanche to set a random deadline not in line with the OOP but have the freedom to do so if they need to.

-Evita-
03-11-2011, 12:26 PM
The deadline will usually be taken from the official order of play and set at a time when the first match begins where possible. However, managers may occasionally set an earlier deadline at which no more picks will be allowed if their personal circumstances dictate this and plenty of warning is given.

If I may make a couple of suggestions?

1) I would add the word "usually" to the first sentence because otherwise it still seems too categorical.

2) I think we should define "plenty of warning" more concretely. My suggestion is that there has to be at least 10 hour window from the moment the manager posts the OOP and the early deadline. If it's less than 10 hours then we have to go by the official deadline. And also the manager has to note in big bold letters in the OOP that the deadline is different from the official one.

How does that sound?

<Eve>
03-11-2011, 12:28 PM
If I may make a couple of suggestions?

1) I would add the word "usually" to the first sentence because otherwise it still seems too categorical.

2) I think we should define "plenty of warning" more concretely. My suggestion is that there has to be at least 10 hour window from the moment the manager posts the OOP and the early deadline. If it's less than 10 hours then we have to go by the official deadline. And also the manager has to note in big bold letters in the OOP that the deadline is different from the official one.

How does that sound?

and in thread title i would add

ibreak4coffee
03-11-2011, 05:50 PM
Question for the board concerning commitments - duducardoso committed to Miami and then withdrew and signed up to a challenger. I informed him therefore that he would be an LE in that tournament - so today he withdrew from there and committed again to Miami.

The scenario below doesn't seem to apply 100% to this. What should we do? I'm positive he's an LE now no matter where he plays, but is he even allowed to recommit back to Miami?

What happens if a player commits to two different tournaments in the same week?

If the player commited first in a tournament and then commited in another one, the first one prevails. The player must withdraw from the tournament they've previously entered before being accepted in the entry list of the other tournament (as a late entry). If the double commitment is not noticed by the managers, points gained by a player who commits to tournaments in the same week will be disconsidered. If the infraction is noticed before the tournaments start, only the first commitment is valid and no punishment is applied.

ibreak4coffee
03-11-2011, 05:59 PM
If I may make a couple of suggestions?

1) I would add the word "usually" to the first sentence because otherwise it still seems too categorical.

2) I think we should define "plenty of warning" more concretely. My suggestion is that there has to be at least 10 hour window from the moment the manager posts the OOP and the early deadline. If it's less than 10 hours then we have to go by the official deadline. And also the manager has to note in big bold letters in the OOP that the deadline is different from the official one.

How does that sound?

Whatever we decide can we take a step back and make sure that a trend doesn't continue/start where the growth of rules and regulations for managers grows much faster than those for players? As evidence I'll submit the TT Code of Conduct which has more clauses relating to managers than players when it was originally proposed to curb behaviour of players.

No matter what the rules are people are going to complain and critique managers on these boards. There just always seems to be a group of people who can do so much better than existing managers, and a lot of the time the criticisms come from people who are too lazy to manage, read what the managers post, format their picks correctly, or all three. Managing a tournament like Indian Wells is A LOT of work and I feel that every time there an issue lately the complaints of players take precedence over the flexibility and understanding that should be part of a game where people with studies, jobs, and families are investing a lot of time managing this game so it can continue.

I support -Evita- in the need to clarify this rule but just want to make sure what ends up coming out of this discussion doesn't chain managers to their computers for a week

scoobs
03-11-2011, 06:11 PM
Whatever we decide can we take a step back and make sure that a trend doesn't continue/start where the growth of rules and regulations for managers grows much faster than those for players? As evidence I'll submit the TT Code of Conduct which has more clauses relating to managers than players when it was originally proposed to curb behaviour of players.

No matter what the rules are people are going to complain and critique managers on these boards. There just always seems to be a group of people who can do so much better than existing managers, and a lot of the time the criticisms come from people who are too lazy to manage, read what the managers post, format their picks correctly, or all three. Managing a tournament like Indian Wells is A LOT of work and I feel that every time there an issue lately the complaints of players take precedence over the flexibility and understanding that should be part of a game where people with studies, jobs, and families are investing a lot of time managing this game so it can continue.

I support -Evita- in the need to clarify this rule but just want to make sure what ends up coming out of this discussion doesn't chain managers to their computers for a week

I understand your concerns with that but do you not think that the fact that the code of conduct has more to say about managers responsibilities simply reflects the fact that the manager *has* more responsibilities and more to do to enable to the game to run smoothly. It shouldn't necessarily be seen as the manager having "more" burdens upon them in terms of having to adhere to the code.

Goldenoldie
03-11-2011, 06:45 PM
Question for the board concerning commitments - duducardoso committed to Miami and then withdrew and signed up to a challenger. I informed him therefore that he would be an LE in that tournament - so today he withdrew from there and committed again to Miami.

The scenario below doesn't seem to apply 100% to this. What should we do? I'm positive he's an LE now no matter where he plays, but is he even allowed to recommit back to Miami?

Only one change is allowed:-

On Sunday evening after seeing the entry lists, players that aren't among the 28 direct entries, can move to another tournament which has free places or decide not to move and play the qualies there (only 1 change is allowed, still on ranking but late entries

ibreak4coffee
03-11-2011, 06:48 PM
Only one change is allowed:-

On Sunday evening after seeing the entry lists, players that aren't among the 28 direct entries, can move to another tournament which has free places or decide not to move and play the qualies there (only 1 change is allowed, still on ranking but late entries

That's what I thought. Thanks

Taz Warrior
03-11-2011, 06:52 PM
If I may make a couple of suggestions?

1) I would add the word "usually" to the first sentence because otherwise it still seems too categorical.

2) I think we should define "plenty of warning" more concretely. My suggestion is that there has to be at least 10 hour window from the moment the manager posts the OOP and the early deadline. If it's less than 10 hours then we have to go by the official deadline. And also the manager has to note in big bold letters in the OOP that the deadline is different from the official one.

How does that sound?

1. Personally, I wouldn't add the word usually because even if the deadline is different to the start of play the official OOP should still be used as a guideline but I don't mind it being added.

2. Yes, we were defining plenty of warning and similar to you we were going to add a 12 hour window and ensure that the manager warned everybody at the start of the tournament if the deadline would be different on any day during the tournament.

-Evita-
03-11-2011, 07:01 PM
1. Personally, I wouldn't add the word usually because even if the deadline is different to the start of play the official OOP should still be used as a guideline but I don't mind it being added.

It's just that "where possible" is not the best addition to the sentence because it is always possible to keep the official deadline. So it doesn't really change the meaning of the sentence. That's why I think "usually" is a better option.

2. Yes, we were defining plenty of warning and similar to you we were going to add a 12 hour window and ensure that the manager warned everybody at the start of the tournament if the deadline would be different on any day during the tournament.

Good :yeah:

scoobs
03-11-2011, 07:19 PM
1. Personally, I wouldn't add the word usually because even if the deadline is different to the start of play the official OOP should still be used as a guideline but I don't mind it being added.

2. Yes, we were defining plenty of warning and similar to you we were going to add a 12 hour window and ensure that the manager warned everybody at the start of the tournament if the deadline would be different on any day during the tournament.

Even point 2 is a bit too restrictive. I start a tournament on Saturday and on Monday I find out I have to be at a meeting on Friday and need to get the picks in a couple of days earlier.

I think that if the deadline is not to be the same as the start of play, the manager must warn the players as soon as possible in the thread and perhaps even by PM, but trying to lock that down to a specific is only going to lead to more problems.

<Eve>
03-11-2011, 08:54 PM
Rabat CH 2nd deadline has passed and i closed the enties. This leaves me 7 qualifying players for 4 spots, 2 of them still in IW.
I decided the qualification round to be a 1-day round, played on Sunday

Based on the outcomes of today's play in Indian Wells, I will decide what the qualification draw will look like.

Now I have a player to enter Rabat after 2nd deadline. and this rule says:

In which cases should a manager extend the deadline?

Managers can extend the deadline if there are still spots available in the Main Draw after the second deadline or if the tournament's qualifying matches start on Sunday.

Can i extend the deadline up till tomorrow 6pm, let 8 spots for qualies and then possible nr 9, 10 etc will be alts who can move up when my players of IW are still in after today?

scoobs
03-11-2011, 08:58 PM
I think you're supposed to keep the entry open if you want to extend the deadline, and announce at the deadline time that you're leaving it open, so for singles I'd say no.

did you close the doubles entry? They might be able to play doubles with someone if not

<Eve>
03-11-2011, 09:01 PM
i just said:

" The 2nd deadline is closed! "
which isnt even proper english :o :unsure:

No mentioning of singles or doubles

Boarder35m
03-11-2011, 09:09 PM
i just said:

" The 2nd deadline is closed! "
which isnt even proper english :o :unsure:

No mentioning of singles or doubles

You should keep the doubles entry list open until you do the draw, because at the moment several doubles teams might not play because they are still involved in TT Indian Wells.
A doubles tournament needs at least 8 teams :p

In singles the entry list should remain closed because there are more than 32 players.
The player who committed after the 2nd deadline could be an ALT for qualification. Depending on how many players play 2nd week in Indian Wells he might play singles MD from being ALT before :p

<Eve>
03-11-2011, 09:31 PM
Thanks!

volc0mizado
03-11-2011, 11:23 PM
can somebody give me an answer? i've reached a final this week and i have to play a qualy for the next week. i've asked for a SE in the manager's private box about 10mins before the deadline closed. since i haven't asked in the thread (sent a pm instead), i don't know if its valid. i've posted on the tournaments thread twice and pm'ed the manager again, but i wasn't replied at the moment. can someone clear this thing up? its about two and a half hours from the picks deadline. normally i would send them anyway, but since the OOP includes way more then ten unknown chinese fellows, i would prefer not to have to research if i'm not obliged to. thanks in advance.

scoobs
03-11-2011, 11:28 PM
Well if you applied for the SE before the deadline the manager really should take it into account - have they done the draw yet?

volc0mizado
03-11-2011, 11:35 PM
no, but he did say there was none SE given and the first two players wouldn't need to send picks as they would make it to the MD, and there is little time until the play starts. the thing is i didn't say anything in the thread before the deadline, sended a pm to the manager instead. dunno if he hasn't read it or it isn't valid or something like that, since he didn't replied to any.

Boarder35m
03-11-2011, 11:51 PM
no, but he did say there was none SE given and the first two players wouldn't need to send picks as they would make it to the MD, and there is little time until the play starts. the thing is i didn't say anything in the thread before the deadline, sended a pm to the manager instead. dunno if he hasn't read it or it isn't valid or something like that, since he didn't replied to any.

The problem is that the manager also manages the tournament in Indian wells and he did have a lot of unanswered pms in his inbox at the time you sent the pm. Besides there were big problems with opening pms today. :hug:

I would advise you to send picks for today :p

volc0mizado
03-11-2011, 11:56 PM
but i did say in the thread i had sended him a pm earlier about it. thanks anyway.

scoobs
03-11-2011, 11:56 PM
I did send a PM to Juakos17, who, if the SE spot is taken, would need to send qually picks, to see if he still could, but who knows whether he will or not.

scoobs
03-11-2011, 11:57 PM
Whatever happens, with a bit of luck if spaces open up because of Indian Wells, nobody will need to be disadvantaged.

volc0mizado
03-12-2011, 12:25 AM
Whatever happens, with a bit of luck if spaces open up because of Indian Wells, nobody will need to be disadvantaged.
hopefully that would be the case. just sended the picks, going off now. thanks a bunch guys ;)

Labamba
03-12-2011, 01:05 AM
Clay season is here, vamos! :cool:

The usual stuff:

- max 2 tourneys/manager/month
- 5 days to apply
- give atleast one back-up choice
- new managers should start with challengers

April


Date Tournament Surface Draw(S/QS/D/QD) Manager

04/04/2011 Houston CL 32/16/16/8 ?
04/04/2011 Casablanca CL 32/16/16/8 ?
04/04/2011 Monza CH CL 32/16/16/8 ?
04/04/2011 Pereira CH CL 32/16/16/8 ?
04/04/2011 Recife CH H 32/16/16/8 ?

11/04/2011 Monte-Carlo CL 64/32/32/16 ?
11/04/2011 Rome CH CL 32/16/16/8 ?
11/04/2011 Athens CH H 32/16/16/8 ?
11/04/2011 Johannesburg CH H 32/16/16/8 ?

18/04/2011 Barcelona CL 64/32/32/16 ?
18/04/2011 Napoli CH CL 32/32/16/16 ?
18/04/2011 Santos CH CL 32/32/16/16 ?

25/04/2011 Estoril CL 32/16/16/8 ?
25/04/2011 Munich CL 32/16/16/8 ?
25/04/2011 Belgrade CL 32/16/16/8 ?
25/04/2011 Tunis CH CL 32/16/16/8 ?
25/04/2011 Sarasota CH CL 32/16/16/8 ?


May


Date Tournament Surface Draw(S/QS/D/QD) Manager

02/05/2011 Madrid CL 64/32/32/16 ?
02/05/2011 Prague CH CL 32/16/16/8 ?
02/05/2011 Savannah CH CL 32/16/16/8 ?
02/05/2011 Rome 2 CH CL 32/16/16/8 ?

09/05/2011 Rome CL 64/32/32/16 ?
09/05/2011 Bordeaux CH CL 32/16/16/8 ?
09/05/2011 Zagreb CH CL 32/16/16/8 ?
09/05/2011 Busan CH H 32/16/16/8 ?

16/05/2011 WTC Düsseldorf CL 8 teams ?
16/05/2011 Nice CL 32/32/16/16 ?
16/05/2011 Fergana CH H 32/32/16/16 ?
16/05/2011 Cremona CH H 32/32/16/16 ?

23/05/2011 Roland Garros S CL 128/128 ?
23/05/2011 Roland Garros D CL 64/64 ?
23/05/2011 Alessandria CH CL 32/16/16/8 ?

30/05/2011 Prostejov CH CL 32/16/16/8 ?
30/05/2011 Furth CH CL 32/16/16/8 ?
30/05/2011 Rijeka CH CL 32/16/16/8 ?
30/05/2011 Nottingham CH G 32/16/16/8 ?

Labamba
03-12-2011, 01:08 AM
mmarto193 asked for Houston via PM earlier...

orangehat
03-12-2011, 01:11 AM
Monza, Napoli and Rome 2 CH please. :wavey:

BU: Barcelona, Prague

scoobs
03-12-2011, 01:14 AM
I'd like to step up and take a bigger event - Rome 1000 perhaps?

Also Napoli CH and Nottingham CH

Backup - Furth CH.

l_mac
03-12-2011, 01:16 AM
I can do Monte Carlo

Goldenoldie
03-12-2011, 01:28 AM
Athens CH, Tunis CH, Busan CH, Fergana CH

B/U Cremona CH, Prostejov CH

ibreak4coffee
03-12-2011, 01:46 AM
Sarasota please

Belludal
03-12-2011, 01:54 AM
Recife CH, Santos CH, Bordeaux CH and Rijeka CH please.

B/U Prague CH.

Goldenoldie
03-12-2011, 02:24 AM
I did send a PM to Juakos17, who, if the SE spot is taken, would need to send qually picks, to see if he still could, but who knows whether he will or not.

Thanks very much for doing that. I would have sent him a PM myself, but I realised that he would be #1 seed and with 7 players would get a Bye anyway.

keqtqiadv
03-12-2011, 03:08 AM
Busan CH & Johannesburg CH.
BU: Monte-Carlo

CoolyBri
03-12-2011, 08:54 AM
Munich
BU: Anything that week :)

<Eve>
03-12-2011, 09:11 AM
Prague CH

BU: Rome2 CH of same week

Boarder35m
03-12-2011, 09:26 AM
Casablanca, Barcelona, Nice
BU: Napoli Ch, Furth Ch

for me please :p

-Evita-
03-12-2011, 09:28 AM
I can do Madrid and another tournament in the European time zone. Perhaps RG?

abollo
03-12-2011, 09:29 AM
Rome CH, Zagreb CH, Alessandria CH
BU: Tunis CH, Furth CH

I also wanted to ask how many tournaments a manager needs to manage to start managing ATP tournaments

Goldenoldie
03-12-2011, 10:57 AM
Rome CH, Zagreb CH, Alessandria CH
BU: Tunis CH, Furth CH

I also wanted to ask how many tournaments a manager needs to manage to start managing ATP tournaments

There is no rule, it's a question of when you think you are ready and Labamba thinks you are ready.
I probably did about 10 challengers before my first ATP, but I am sure you will be quicker than that.

ibreak4coffee
03-12-2011, 05:33 PM
Rome CH, Zagreb CH, Alessandria CH
BU: Tunis CH, Furth CH

I also wanted to ask how many tournaments a manager needs to manage to start managing ATP tournaments

You can do an ATP tournament. A 32 ATP tournament draw isn't much different from a challenger. Go for it :yeah:

scoobs
03-12-2011, 05:39 PM
The only difference is, with an ATP level tournament you will probably have to run a full qualifying tournament - with challengers, the qualifying is often small, if needed at all.

l_mac
03-12-2011, 05:44 PM
Rome CH, Zagreb CH, Alessandria CH
BU: Tunis CH, Furth CH

I also wanted to ask how many tournaments a manager needs to manage to start managing ATP tournaments

I only did one challenger before my first ATP tournament. But I had been playing TT for about 9/10 months before I managed any tournament.

abollo
03-12-2011, 05:46 PM
You can do an ATP tournament. A 32 ATP tournament draw isn't much different from a challenger. Go for it :yeah:

The only difference is, with an ATP level tournament you will probably have to run a full qualifying tournament - with challengers, the qualifying is often small, if needed at all.

I thought this rule was made because new managers might make some mistakes which some top TT players, who play in ATP tournaments don't want to have.
Actually some challengers have full qualifying draws, it depends on the week and what other tournaments are on the same I think.
I will wait to the summer, where I could have much more time and then maybe I could aim to start leveling up

Thank you :worship:

scoobs
03-12-2011, 05:49 PM
I thought this rule was made because new managers might make some mistakes which some top TT players, who play in ATP tournaments don't want to have.
Actually some challengers have full qualifying draws, it depends on the week and what other tournaments are on the same I think.
I will wait to the summer, where I could have much more time and then maybe I could aim to start leveling up

Thank you :worship:

Well, yes, at ATP level events you get more experienced players there and the tournaments are worth more so it's good to start with challengers and get a good understanding of all the facets of managing before you step up.

l_mac
03-12-2011, 06:21 PM
Managing challengers is actually a lot harder than the ATP tournaments. Quite often the results/OOP are released very late. Some tournaments don't have websites. TT Challengers are full of inexperienced players who can't send picks properly. I've never understood why we have to start off in Challengers as managers :lol:

BrunoBeidacki
03-12-2011, 06:28 PM
Can i try Monza CH?

ibreak4coffee
03-12-2011, 06:31 PM
Managing challengers is actually a lot harder than the ATP tournaments. Quite often the results/OOP are released very late. Some tournaments don't have websites. TT Challengers are full of inexperienced players who can't send picks properly. I've never understood why we have to start off in Challengers as managers :lol:

+1

My time commitment explaining rules, formatting picks, researching local club players and juniors that are in the OOP take much longer than ATP tournaments.

I guess the flip side argument is that in an ATP tournament, experienced players will notice your mistakes - and much more quickly - than inexperienced players in challengers.

But I agree 100% that a challenger is more challenging (pun intended) for a manager in many ways

Goldenoldie
03-12-2011, 08:51 PM
I'm very glad I started in challengers and with one or two exceptions I will probably be concentrating on them in the future.
Indian Wells has been a disaster for me so far, but even apart from that, I think the challengers are more fun to manage. I much prefer to know more than the players do, rather than less.

Yes, it's frustrating at times, both with the tournament organizations and with the newbie players, but I think there's greater satisfaction getting to the end of say Astana or Kazan rather than somewhere like Auckland where everything is sort of semi-automatic.

Also as an "elder statesman" I don't mind advising the new players on what to do, so that they can get it right next time.

Boarder35m
03-13-2011, 03:44 AM
I wouldn't count on that :unsure: I have no idea about the schedule, but the qualifying could easily start on Saturday or Sunday.

The Le Goser challenger keeps getting tough.

The website says that qualification should be held saturday the 12th and sunday the 13th but there is no sign of an OOP or a qualy draw yet.

Because the website also says that Le Gosier has a saturday final and I need 2 rounds of qualification I donīt know hot to go on :scratch:

I said that I would wait until midnight local time, if the OOP is not publshed by then I assume that qualfication starts on monday :shrug:

orangehat
03-13-2011, 05:11 AM
Disaster in Le Gosier because there seems to be no qualifying, 8 byes in MD.

Boarder35m
03-13-2011, 05:35 AM
Ok this is the situation in Le Gosier.

There should be a 2 round qualification for TT in singles and doubles, but with no qualification draw and only 8 1st round match (only 24 players in the singles draw) :eek: I really donīt know what to do :help.

Goldenoldie
03-13-2011, 07:45 AM
Ok this is the situation in Le Gosier.

There should be a 2 round qualification for TT in singles and doubles, but with no qualification draw and only 8 1st round match (only 24 players in the singles draw) :eek: I really donīt know what to do :help.

And this is the top challenger of the week? Upper level 120=pointer with 8 top 100 players? :confused:. It makes Reunion Island with its club players sound almost attractive.

OK 2 suggestions:-

1. Use Rimouski for your 2 qualifying rounds, and then take it from there.

2. Round 1 Le Gosier = TTQR1 2 matches,
TT QR2 2 matches, MDR1 4 matches
Round 2 Le Gosier = TT MDR2 4 matches QF 4 matches
QF Le Gosier = TT SF 4 matches
SF & F Le Gosier = TT Final 3 matches.
More like an exho that a proper TT challenger,but I can't see anything better.

I'm sure everyone will back you whatever you decide.

ibreak4coffee
03-13-2011, 07:59 AM
Change it to Rimouski... it has live scoring too

buji
03-13-2011, 08:59 AM
I think Rimouski is a better option..

<Eve>
03-13-2011, 10:27 AM
Question about Rabat CH.

I had a player in the qualy list, who is still in IW now. I had to take her out of the qualies list, but now she asks if she instead can be an alt for the qualies list, in case many of my MD players are still in IW and she's out after tonight...

Goldenoldie
03-13-2011, 01:19 PM
Question about Rabat CH.

I had a player in the qualy list, who is still in IW now. I had to take her out of the qualies list, but now she asks if she instead can be an alt for the qualies list, in case many of my MD players are still in IW and she's out after tonight...

It's bizarre - I have a very similar situation.
Definitely she could not be Alt for qualies, but I THINK there is no reason she should not be Alt for MD. If one of the more experienced Board members says I am wrong, then sorry in advance!!

Boarder35m
03-13-2011, 01:46 PM
It's bizarre - I have a very similar situation.
Definitely she could not be Alt for qualies, but I THINK there is no reason she should not be Alt for MD. If one of the more experienced Board members says I am wrong, then sorry in advance!!

I asked this 2 years ago when managing a challenger in the 2nd week of a Grand Slam and I was told "Yes". :wavey:

http://www.menstennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=9077876&postcount=1460
http://www.menstennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=9078120&postcount=1461

<Eve>
03-13-2011, 01:58 PM
Ok thanks guys.

It will be complicated as I'm not even sure I'll have enough players in to play doubles. They are not allowed to switch teams if I do have 16 who want to play doubles but are unlucky as their previous partner is still in IW?

And as prob not all the players will go down today, there will be enough open spots in MD that my qualies of today will be done for nothing too :lol: - I'd say the alts can get in as LL, but rules are rules so alt will be ok too i guess :shrug:

Goldenoldie
03-13-2011, 02:05 PM
Ok thanks guys.

It will be complicated as I'm not even sure I'll have enough players in to play doubles. They are not allowed to switch teams if I do have 16 who want to play doubles but are unlucky as their previous partner is still in IW?

And as prob not all the players will go down today, there will be enough open spots in MD that my qualies of today will be done for nothing too :lol: - I'd say the alts can get in as LL, but rules are rules so alt will be ok too i guess :shrug:

Welcome to Planet TT, where the weird is commonplace.

<Eve>
03-13-2011, 02:09 PM
Huta Galung said they expect rains in Rabat. Remember my Kooyong start?
http://www.frankrijkforum.nl/smiles/facepalm.gif

Fun:D Planet TT. Good luck with your crazy tourny too alex :unsure:

Ok i'll wait with more questions till i know the final nr op people in Rabat CH :yeah:

Boarder35m
03-13-2011, 02:31 PM
And this is the top challenger of the week? Upper level 120=pointer with 8 top 100 players? :confused:. It makes Reunion Island with its club players sound almost attractive.

OK 2 suggestions:-

1. Use Rimouski for your 2 qualifying rounds, and then take it from there.

2. Round 1 Le Gosier = TTQR1 2 matches,
TT QR2 2 matches, MDR1 4 matches
Round 2 Le Gosier = TT MDR2 4 matches QF 4 matches
QF Le Gosier = TT SF 4 matches
SF & F Le Gosier = TT Final 3 matches.
More like an exho that a proper TT challenger,but I can't see anything better.

I'm sure everyone will back you whatever you decide.

I just checked the main draw from Rimouski and it is by far weaker than Le Gosier. :awww:

I am thinking of using the monday matches from Rimouski for the 2 rounds of qualification and the monday matches from Le Gosier for the 1st round in singles (if they play more than 6 matches I would have to split the OOP)

Both tournaments are in the same time zone - the only problem wuld be that the qualifiers are not known and that I would have to give both possible differences.

What do you think? :wavey:

keqtqiadv
03-13-2011, 02:55 PM
I just checked the main draw from Rimouski and it is by far weaker than Le Gosier. :awww:

I am thinking of using the monday matches from Rimouski for the 2 rounds of qualification and the monday matches from Le Gosier for the 1st round in singles (if they play more than 6 matches I would have to split the OOP)

Both tournaments are in the same time zone - the only problem wuld be that the qualifiers are not known and that I would have to give both possible differences.

What do you think? :wavey:
Sounds good :)

dinkulpus
03-13-2011, 06:14 PM
mmarto193 asked for Houston via PM earlier...

Houston is free, yesterday I understood that I will have spring holiday in first week of April, so probably I will travel and can't manage this.

For me :

Estoril, Busan CH and Santos CH
BU : Belgrade and Fergana CH

<Eve>
03-14-2011, 09:21 AM
Hi, I have 28 in single MD Rabat CH (after taking out the ones that are still in IW).
Does my 1 LL of the qualies get in immediately as nr 29? With my 4 alts replacing eventual missing picks?

-Evita-
03-14-2011, 09:37 AM
Hi, I have 28 in single MD Rabat CH (after taking out the ones that are still in IW).
Does my 1 LL of the qualies get in immediately as nr 29? With my 4 alts replacing eventual missing picks?

That's an interesting situation. You can put the LL in before you do the draw but the Alts... Usually you wouldn't put alts in the draw but maybe you have to in this case because you can't leave in the players that are still in IW. So you can put either Byes or Alts in those 3 spots. I think Alts make more sense.

<Eve>
03-14-2011, 09:42 AM
I think ALT makes more sense too, as everyone will get in anyway. There are 32 willing, i still have some missing picks and one sent of the wrong OOP and didn't re-send after an immediate PM at 1.30 last night :shrug:

or wont missing picks get replaced by alt as it's 2 day round? :scratch:

* i checked again, there's another player still in IW so that leaves me with 5 open spots.
There could fit in the LL and the 4 ALTs....

<Eve>
03-14-2011, 10:10 AM
Ok I have decided to fill my draw with the 4 alts, as there are exactly 32 who want to play. I hope that's ok with the board.

Boarder35m
03-14-2011, 01:43 PM
Ok I have decided to fill my draw with the 4 alts, as there are exactly 32 who want to play. I hope that's ok with the board.

I have the same situation in doubles in Le Gosier, but I only realised it after I made the draw. I put in LL, when in fact the 4th lucky loser should have been an ALT.

I think we both did it right. Since there was a qualification draw (and in your case the qualy was already played) every player knew that there wouldnīt be any byes in 1st round.

dinkulpus
03-16-2011, 07:40 PM
Ville, when you will update the managers?

Labamba
03-17-2011, 04:41 PM
^tomorrow :)

abollo
03-17-2011, 11:03 PM
Are the top 30 allowed to play in week 12 challenger?

Belludal
03-18-2011, 01:53 PM
One question, if a tournament with 16 players on qualifier have on Main Draw 6 players that donīt sent the picks is possible can use players that lose on First Round of Qualy to be Luck Loser?

Taz Warrior
03-18-2011, 01:58 PM
One question, if a tournament with 16 players on qualifier have on Main Draw 6 players that donīt sent the picks is possible can use players that lose on First Round of Qualy to be Luck Loser?

Yes

Labamba
03-18-2011, 02:56 PM
thanks guys :yeah: :hatoff:

April


Date Tournament Surface Draw(S/QS/D/QD) Manager

04/04/2011 Houston CL 32/16/16/8 ?
04/04/2011 Casablanca CL 32/16/16/8 Boarder35m
04/04/2011 Monza CH CL 32/16/16/8 orangehat
04/04/2011 Pereira CH CL 32/16/16/8 BrunoBeidacki
04/04/2011 Recife CH H 32/16/16/8 Belludal

11/04/2011 Monte-Carlo CL 64/32/32/16 l_mac
11/04/2011 Rome CH CL 32/16/16/8 abollo
11/04/2011 Athens CH H 32/16/16/8 Goldenoldie
11/04/2011 Johannesburg CH H 32/16/16/8 keqtqiadv

18/04/2011 Barcelona CL 64/32/32/16 orangehat
18/04/2011 Napoli CH CL 32/32/16/16 scoobs
18/04/2011 Santos CH CL 32/32/16/16 mmarto193

25/04/2011 Estoril CL 32/16/16/8 mmarto193
25/04/2011 Munich CL 32/16/16/8 CoolyBri
25/04/2011 Belgrade CL 32/16/16/8 Labamba
25/04/2011 Tunis CH CL 32/16/16/8 Goldenoldie
25/04/2011 Sarasota CH CL 32/16/16/8 ibreak4coffee


May


Date Tournament Surface Draw(S/QS/D/QD) Manager

02/05/2011 Madrid CL 64/32/32/16 -Evita-
02/05/2011 Prague CH CL 32/16/16/8 .EvE.
02/05/2011 Savannah CH CL 32/16/16/8 Belludal
02/05/2011 Rome 2 CH CL 32/16/16/8 orangehat

09/05/2011 Rome CL 64/32/32/16 scoobs
09/05/2011 Bordeaux CH CL 32/16/16/8 Belludal
09/05/2011 Zagreb CH CL 32/16/16/8 abollo
09/05/2011 Busan CH H 32/16/16/8 keqtqiadv

16/05/2011 WTC Düsseldorf CL 8 teams ?
16/05/2011 Nice CL 32/32/16/16 Boarder35m
16/05/2011 Fergana CH H 32/32/16/16 mmarto193
16/05/2011 Cremona CH H 32/32/16/16 Goldenoldie

23/05/2011 Roland Garros S CL 128/128 -Evita-
23/05/2011 Roland Garros D CL 64/64 ?
23/05/2011 Alessandria CH CL 32/16/16/8 abollo

30/05/2011 Prostejov CH CL 32/16/16/8 Goldenoldie
30/05/2011 Furth CH CL 32/16/16/8 Boarder35m
30/05/2011 Rijeka CH CL 32/16/16/8 Belludal
30/05/2011 Nottingham CH G 32/16/16/8 scoobs

Labamba
03-18-2011, 02:57 PM
this week


Date Tournament Surface Draw(S/QS/D/QD) Manager

04/04/2011 Houston CL 32/16/16/8 rvugt
04/04/2011 Casablanca CL 32/16/16/8 Boarder35m
04/04/2011 Monza CH CL 32/16/16/8 orangehat
04/04/2011 Pereira CH CL 32/16/16/8 BrunoBeidacki
04/04/2011 Recife CH H 32/16/16/8 Belludal

rvugt
03-18-2011, 05:54 PM
Well, I am busy during the day, but for Houston I have to post the diffs in the afternoon, so I guess I can take it. Will open a trhead later tonight if I am allowed to have it!

Labamba
03-18-2011, 11:42 PM
Well, I am busy during the day, but for Houston I have to post the diffs in the afternoon, so I guess I can take it. Will open a trhead later tonight if I am allowed to have it!

sure :)

rvugt
03-19-2011, 02:48 AM
Well, later tonight becomes tomorrow. I am sorry, but will try to do it at least on Sunday! I hope everyone can be a little bit patient with committing!

BrunoBeidacki
03-19-2011, 02:55 AM
why you change my tournment? its hard to me to post the OOP in Colombian time, because it's too late to me :(

orangehat
03-19-2011, 03:01 AM
why you change my tournment? its hard to me to post the OOP in Colombian time, because it's too late to me :(

you can always ask other people to post the OoP for you for those days where matches cannot be predicted.

most importantly is whether you can post differences on time :p

BrunoBeidacki
03-19-2011, 04:03 AM
do you know when start the games?

BrunoBeidacki
03-19-2011, 04:04 AM
i'm saying like, the time, to know if i'll can post the diffs....

orangehat
03-19-2011, 06:29 AM
From what I saw in Bucaramanga and Salinas (both SA Challengers), probably somewhere from 11am - 1pm local time. (except for maybe semifinals and finals, which may start later).

Boarder35m
03-20-2011, 01:04 AM
TT Le Gosier is finished and Iīm so happy that itīs over ;)

I would strongly favour not to include Le Gosier in the TT tournament calender next year.
It has been the only challenger tournament without ATP live-scoring this week (only betting sites had one court available :awww:), there was no qualification tournament and 8 byes in 1st round (while the website said that qualification would take place with 32 players :rolleyes:) and it had incredibly late OOPs (released after midnight local time several days) :mad:

ibreak4coffee
03-23-2011, 04:21 AM
Sorry for the inconvenience but please remove me from managing Sarasota.

Thanks.

Belludal
03-23-2011, 04:44 AM
If necessary i can replace ibreak4cofee like manager on Sarasota.

Labamba
03-23-2011, 10:56 PM
this week :cool:


Date Tournament Surface Draw(S/QS/D/QD) Manager

11/04/2011 Monte-Carlo CL 64/32/32/16 l_mac
11/04/2011 Rome CH CL 32/16/16/8 mmarto193
11/04/2011 Athens CH H 32/16/16/8 Goldenoldie
11/04/2011 Johannesburg CH H 32/16/16/8 keqtqiadv

abollo
03-24-2011, 06:25 AM
I will be traveling outside the country from Friday the 1st till Friday the 8th, which is the period where the entry lists for Rome CH should be updated and then on Friday the qualifying draw be made and the OOP posted.
So if someone could take this tournament over it would be better I think, if no one is interested I will do it but the entry lists won't be updated until Friday and the draws and OOP will be made late on Friday.
I am very sorry for that, but this I just knew I would be traveling :)

rvugt
03-24-2011, 09:48 AM
I am managing that week anyways. I can help you out, putting an EL together and making the qualifying draw, if needed. If you than would take over from Saturday on! No problem at all doing this!

dinkulpus
03-24-2011, 12:54 PM
I can manage this tournament :wavey:
Ville, just tell me your decision to know what to do :worship:

Boarder35m
03-24-2011, 04:19 PM
I should leave only 1 SE spot for Casablanca. Am I right? :scratch:

Labamba
03-25-2011, 11:04 AM
I will be traveling outside the country from Friday the 1st till Friday the 8th, which is the period where the entry lists for Rome CH should be updated and then on Friday the qualifying draw be made and the OOP posted.
So if someone could take this tournament over it would be better I think, if no one is interested I will do it but the entry lists won't be updated until Friday and the draws and OOP will be made late on Friday.
I am very sorry for that, but this I just knew I would be traveling :)

I can manage this tournament :wavey:
Ville, just tell me your decision to know what to do :worship:

You can take it :yeah:

I should leave only 1 SE spot for Casablanca. Am I right? :scratch:

Why only one? Always two for ATP250...

Belludal
03-25-2011, 01:20 PM
One question. Gallina got second round on Miami Doubles.

Qualy of Barranquilla begin tomorrow. Gallina can play the qualy or is Out of the qualy because of Miami second round on doubles?

Goldenoldie
03-25-2011, 06:30 PM
One question. Gallina got second round on Miami Doubles.

Qualy of Barranquilla begin tomorrow. Gallina can play the qualy or is Out of the qualy because of Miami second round on doubles?

Out

l_mac
03-25-2011, 06:34 PM
Sorry for the inconvenience but please remove me from managing Sarasota.

Thanks.

I can take Sarasota if you like. :)

scoobs
03-25-2011, 06:36 PM
Sorry for the inconvenience but please remove me from managing Sarasota.

Thanks.

I hope this isn't as a result of the OOP moaner.

scoobs
03-25-2011, 07:53 PM
I have a player who asked to use his PR in doubles to get out of the qualifying draw (but didn't ask to use it in singles - if he did, it would push him up into MD)

He's also playing Miami so he's now out of qualifying singles, but I can't get hold of him to see if he wants to use his PR for singles also or scrap singles.

Any advice?

Taz Warrior
03-25-2011, 08:36 PM
I have a player who asked to use his PR in doubles to get out of the qualifying draw (but didn't ask to use it in singles - if he did, it would push him up into MD)

He's also playing Miami so he's now out of qualifying singles, but I can't get hold of him to see if he wants to use his PR for singles also or scrap singles.

Any advice?

If he only specified to use it for doubles and not singles then you shouldn't use his PR for singles unless he specifically states that he wants to use it (he may be saving it for future use)

scoobs
03-25-2011, 08:37 PM
Fine - he's got until I do the draw to show up and answer, otherwise he'll have to try for ALT spot in singles MD if need be.

dinkulpus
03-26-2011, 08:06 PM
For Rome CH, I should use ranking from 21st March :confused:

Belludal
03-27-2011, 03:04 AM
Hi TT Board.

Yesterday i wait for OOP of Saturday but the OOP didnīt come like the Qualy Draw. With this i decide to use the OOP of Sunday to be used for First and Final Round of Qualy but until now the Qualy Draw isnīt come and the website is with problem and the OOP of Sunday isnīt avaliable either.

Because of all this i decide to post the OOP Sunday of St. Brieuc to be used for the picks of Qualy Draw First and Final Rounds.

Belludal
03-27-2011, 04:54 AM
Sorry about the problem! Finally the OOP Sunday of Barranquilla is OUT. All players that send me picks of Saint Brieuc i sent a PM talking the correct OOP Sunday of Barranquilla that is OUT now.

I corrected the OOP.

Labamba
03-28-2011, 12:27 PM
For Rome CH, I should use ranking from 21st March :confused:

yes

Labamba
03-30-2011, 04:17 PM
this week :cool:


Date Tournament Surface Draw(S/QS/D/QD) Manager

18/04/2011 Barcelona CL 64/32/32/16 orangehat
18/04/2011 Napoli CH CL 32/32/16/16 scoobs
18/04/2011 Santos CH CL 32/32/16/16 mmarto193

BrunoBeidacki
03-30-2011, 05:12 PM
i can get Sarasota.

orangehat
03-31-2011, 01:43 AM
1 SE for Barcelona right? :scratch:

Labamba
03-31-2011, 08:09 AM
^yes

rvugt
03-31-2011, 10:46 PM
Because this weekend was the only time that I could go to the musical with my mother, I have a small problem. If the deadline on Saturday is 10 AM Houston time, I will leave 1 hour before that. So I need an assistant manager who can fill in the last picks (he/she will receive all picks, but I will prepare the excel file with everything I have before) and post the diffs. Next to that I won't be online until play start on Sunday, but posting OOP and telling people who won can be generally done in the thread. So, an assistant manager is the easiest, any volunteers?

dinkulpus
04-01-2011, 10:26 PM
Because this weekend was the only time that I could go to the musical with my mother, I have a small problem. If the deadline on Saturday is 10 AM Houston time, I will leave 1 hour before that. So I need an assistant manager who can fill in the last picks (he/she will receive all picks, but I will prepare the excel file with everything I have before) and post the diffs. Next to that I won't be online until play start on Sunday, but posting OOP and telling people who won can be generally done in the thread. So, an assistant manager is the easiest, any volunteers?

If noone agree I can help you, the only problem is that I can post difference at 19:30 CET tomorrow :wavey:

scoobs
04-01-2011, 10:40 PM
Because this weekend was the only time that I could go to the musical with my mother, I have a small problem. If the deadline on Saturday is 10 AM Houston time, I will leave 1 hour before that. So I need an assistant manager who can fill in the last picks (he/she will receive all picks, but I will prepare the excel file with everything I have before) and post the diffs. Next to that I won't be online until play start on Sunday, but posting OOP and telling people who won can be generally done in the thread. So, an assistant manager is the easiest, any volunteers?

you can send over to me if you like, let me know what you need me to do.

rvugt
04-02-2011, 11:21 AM
Thanks for the offers, but it is arranged in the thread. I will send it to mmarto193!

Belludal
04-02-2011, 11:36 PM
I am with a problem.

Tomorrow is the final qualy round for Singles on Recife CH. But tomorrow the OOP only have 2 matches.

What is better to do? Use the OOP of Pereira to have enough matches to be used for Final Qualy Round?

I need sugestions.

dinkulpus
04-03-2011, 12:01 AM
In my opinion you should take 2 matches from Perreira, because two matches is not enough for final round, I think 4 matches will be ok :wavey:

Goldenoldie
04-03-2011, 12:06 AM
I am with a problem.

Tomorrow is the final qualy round for Singles on Recife CH. But tomorrow the OOP only have 2 matches.

What is better to do? Use the OOP of Pereira to have enough matches to be used for Final Qualy Round?

I need sugestions.

I would use 2 or possibly 3 of Monday's Main Draw matches to complete the Final qualifying round. As long as there are at least 5 matches for the Main Draw first round and 5 or 6 for the Main Draw second round (Monday/Tuesday) this will be ok.

I think this is better than borrowing matches from another tournament. Le Gosier was completely unusual and hopefully will not be repeated.

I would also make all the matches for the final QR PTS matches. This is not in the rules, but your Final QR is virtually a first QR as there were so many byes and CountBack would not settle many matches.

Thunderfish8
04-03-2011, 12:09 AM
I'm new and I'm havin a ton of trouble finding the thread for Houston. How can I find it???

Belludal
04-03-2011, 12:17 AM
I would use 2 or possibly 3 of Monday's Main Draw matches to complete the Final qualifying round. As long as there are at least 5 matches for the Main Draw first round and 5 or 6 for the Main Draw second round (Monday/Tuesday) this will be ok.

I think this is better than borrowing matches from another tournament. Le Gosier was completely unusual and hopefully will not be repeated.

I would also make all the matches for the final QR PTS matches. This is not in the rules, but your Final QR is virtually a first QR as there were so many byes and CountBack would not settle many matches.

What do you think about change the Schedule of Play??

Schedule in this moment:

Saturday ~ TT Q1 & (Q2)
Sunday ~ TT Qualy Final Round
Monday ~ TT R32
Tuesday ~ TT R16
Wednesday & Thursday ~ TT QF
Friday ~ TT SF
Saturday & Sunday ~ TT Final

Schedule better in my opinion:

Saturday ~ TT Q1 & (Q2)
Sunday & Monday ~ TT Qualy Final Round
Tuesday ~ TT R32
Wednesday ~ TT R16
Thursday ~ TT QF
Friday ~ TT SF
Saturday & Sunday ~ TT Final

What i want is impossible? I think that with this would be better because all rounds will be organizated with more than 4 matches at least. With this the matches of Qualy Final Round would be played on Sunday-Monday and the Main Draw of the tournament would begin on Tuesday.

Goldenoldie
04-03-2011, 12:42 AM
What do you think about change the Schedule of Play??

Schedule in this moment:

Saturday ~ TT Q1 & (Q2)
Sunday ~ TT Qualy Final Round
Monday ~ TT R32
Tuesday ~ TT R16
Wednesday & Thursday ~ TT QF
Friday ~ TT SF
Saturday & Sunday ~ TT Final

Schedule better in my opinion:

Saturday ~ TT Q1 & (Q2)
Sunday & Monday ~ TT Qualy Final Round
Tuesday ~ TT R32
Wednesday ~ TT R16
Thursday ~ TT QF
Friday ~ TT SF
Saturday & Sunday ~ TT Final

What i want is impossible? I think that with this would be better because all rounds will be organizated with more than 4 matches at least. With this the matches of Qualy Final Round would be played on Sunday-Monday and the Main Draw of the tournament would begin on Tuesday.


It would be unusual to have a TT R16 and a TT QF with only 4 matches each, but I would have no serious objections. You could always make another change to the schedule when you see how many matches are being played on Monday. You don't have to decide now, post your Sunday OOP as Day 1/2 and see whether anyone else has any comments.

My view is my personal opinion and is not an answer on behalf of the TT Board.

Goldenoldie
04-03-2011, 12:44 AM
I'm new and I'm havin a ton of trouble finding the thread for Houston. How can I find it???

It is at the beginning of the Upcoming Tournaments section.

Belludal
04-03-2011, 12:47 AM
It would be unusual to have a TT R16 and a TT QF with only 4 matches each, but I would have no serious objections. You could always make another change to the schedule when you see how many matches are being played on Monday. You don't have to decide now, post your Sunday OOP as Day 1/2 and see whether anyone else has any comments.

My view is my personal opinion and is not an answer on behalf of the TT Board.

Thanks for the opinion. I not will change the Schedule now. I only will give 2 days for Final Qualy Round.

Belludal
04-03-2011, 11:52 PM
I donīt know about the Points and Count Back rules.

Because of this i am with a problem to know the Singles Champion of Barranquilla.

If anyone can help me with this update please help me.

Belludal
04-04-2011, 12:24 AM
I found the rules. The problem is solved!

Thunderfish8
04-04-2011, 01:25 AM
OK, I hate to bug you guys again, but like I said, I've never played TT before, and just want to know how to get started and how long it will be before I'm ranked enough to play in big tournaments.

njnetswill
04-04-2011, 01:29 AM
OK, I hate to bug you guys again, but like I said, I've never played TT before, and just want to know how to get started and how long it will be before I'm ranked enough to play in big tournaments.

Just commit to one of the challenger tournaments in the challenger subforum. You can track your ranking progression in the rankings thread. :wavey:

Thunderfish8
04-04-2011, 02:30 AM
Just commit to one of the challenger tournaments in the challenger subforum. You can track your ranking progression in the rankings thread. :wavey:

Can you send me a link to the forum???

orangehat
04-04-2011, 04:25 AM
^

http://www.menstennisforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=811

Belludal
04-05-2011, 02:08 AM
Someone who knows about PTS Rules and Game Counted Rules please correct me if there is a mistake.

LucasBH

SILVA 6/4 6/4
BELYAEV 6/3 6/4
PEREIRA 6/4 6/3
ROMBOLI 6/3 6/4
CHIUDINELLI 6/3 6/3

_A_

SILVA 64 76
BELYAEV 64 76
PEREIRA 64 76
ROMBOLI 64 63
CHIUDINELLI 63 62

Results of The Day

SILVA 6-4 6-2
BELYAEV 6-4 6-1
PEREIRA 6-1 7-5
SANT'ANNA 7/6(3) 6/3
CLEZAR 6/4 2/2 retirement of Chiudinelli.

Score that i put for this Match:

03:03 | (Q) _A_ (CRO) vs. (LL) LucasBH (BRA) [SRs: 3-3 ] - PTS 1: 7-7 - PTS 2: 7-7 - PTS 3: 4-4 - PTS 4: 0-0 - PTS 5: 0-0 - CB: There isn't Count Back on First Round - GD: 8-4

If there is a error please talk this to me to i make corrections!

Goldenoldie
04-05-2011, 08:13 AM
^^^^

Well done, Belludal, you are correct.

I haven't had to decide a match on GD in over 25 tournaments, and you get one in your second tournament!!!

Belludal
04-05-2011, 02:43 PM
^^^^

Well done, Belludal, you are correct.

I haven't had to decide a match on GD in over 25 tournaments, and you get one in your second tournament!!!

Thanks Goldenoldie! :wavey:

Labamba
04-07-2011, 02:07 PM
this week :sport:


Date Tournament Surface Draw(S/QS/D/QD) Manager

25/04/2011 Estoril CL 32/16/16/8 mmarto193
25/04/2011 Munich CL 32/16/16/8 CoolyBri
25/04/2011 Belgrade CL 32/16/16/8 Labamba
25/04/2011 Ostrava CH CL 32/16/16/8 Goldenoldie
25/04/2011 Sarasota CH CL 32/16/16/8 l_mac

dinkulpus
04-07-2011, 06:46 PM
one question for Santos. I have this case in qualification


Player
A - NR
B - NR
C - 117 LE
D - 127 LE
E - 166 LE
F - 184 LE
G - 229 LE

Player A go direct to main draw, and the other 6 players will play quali for 3 places. Right?
I hope you understand me.

Boarder35m
04-07-2011, 06:53 PM
one question for Santos. I have this case in qualification


Player
A - NR
B - NR
C - 117 LE
D - 127 LE
E - 166 LE
F - 184 LE
G - 229 LE

Player A go direct to main draw, and the other 6 players will play quali for 3 places. Right?
I hope you understand me.

Yes, thatīs right :p

dinkulpus
04-07-2011, 07:05 PM
Thanks for your fast answer, Alex :worship:

andrijagajic
04-07-2011, 07:06 PM
Please take a notice of awfully managed Pereira CH. Diffs sometimes are and sometimes aren't there, OOPs often contain only surnames of players, results are updated very lately(sometimes even not updated) and without SR results...

BrunoBeidacki
04-07-2011, 08:01 PM
Please take a notice of awfully managed Pereira CH. Diffs sometimes are and sometimes aren't there, OOPs often contain only surnames of players, results are updated very lately(sometimes even not updated) and without SR results...

Man, if you only know say bad things, why you don't try to manage an tournment? I'm really busy this week. And i said here that Pereira time is horrible to me to update and do diffs, because that, i asked for Monza. They give me Pereira, and i said that i could manage, but probably with some problems, and they agree. So, don't say something about what you don't know. I'm not doing that because i'm a bad manager or because i don't want to do right, i'm doing that because i had a fewer minutes to update. Thanks, BrunoBeidacki

Goldenoldie
04-07-2011, 08:13 PM
Please take a notice of awfully managed Pereira CH. Diffs sometimes are and sometimes aren't there, OOPs often contain only surnames of players, results are updated very lately(sometimes even not updated) and without SR results...

Man, if you only know say bad things, why you don't try to manage an tournment? I'm really busy this week. And i said here that Pereira time is horrible to me to update and do diffs, because that, i asked for Monza. They give me Pereira, and i said that i could manage, but probably with some problems, and they agree. So, don't say something about what you don't know. I'm not doing that because i'm a bad manager or because i don't want to do write, i'm doing that because i had a fewer minutes to update. Thanks, BrunoBeidacki

This will be considered by the TT Board

andrijagajic
04-07-2011, 09:25 PM
Bruno, I'm not saying that you're bad, just when you don't have enough time in some week, don't manage anything, it'll be better for you and so will for other players.

BrunoBeidacki
04-08-2011, 02:39 AM
Bruno, I'm not saying that you're bad, just when you don't have enough time in some week, don't manage anything, it'll be better for you and so will for other players.

Ok, sorry.

FiBeR
04-10-2011, 12:14 AM
Houston, we have a problem :mad:

Belludal
04-10-2011, 12:15 AM
Houston, we have a problem :mad:

:haha::haha::haha:

FiBeR
04-10-2011, 04:19 AM
Can there be an answer about Houston situation before the start of the final match??? :wavey:

FiBeR
04-10-2011, 04:35 AM
During Houston doubles SF, manager didnt post differences correctly. All what was written was "manu86 walkovered (sent picks 30 min late)" in the Differences Post (vs Allez-Alejo and Tzar)

The following day manager announced that FiBeR/manu86 won in the SF 1 minute after the start of matches (deadline) which of course, meant we walkovered -who would have sent in this case?

This is a very strange situation. The other finalists have nothing to do about this, but neither is our fault.. What should be done in this case?
(Til' this moment there is no partial update of the final as well so we do not know where we re standing)

Also Tzar claims they should be in the final cos manu86 walkovered.

orangehat
04-10-2011, 05:35 AM
Tzar is definitely incorrect (at least if past cases in Challengers are to be examined)

Tzar
04-10-2011, 06:02 AM
Even fiber said it would only make sense if we make it to the finals. I mean, seriously, in the rules thread it says that not sending once is enough for a W/O unless it happens on both teams or 2 days. It sucks cause we're also the defending champions and the manager posted this the day after and the other team didn't sent.

I believe we should be in the finals since 1 of them didn't sent and you all said late picks did not count and resulted in W/O. :shrug:

Rules need to be explicit about this and there should be a specific clause which says that if 1 person in a team sends lates, then his partner picsk count. And thats not what could be understood from the current thread.

FiBeR
04-10-2011, 06:22 AM
I dont mind letting Tzar and Allez-Alejo in the final instead of us. I am repulsed to the idea of giving a walkover in a final, would rather lose in semifinal by default b/c my partner sent late picks rather than losing the final for not sending b/c I was made believed I had lost and told otherwise after the deadline was over...

Goldenoldie
04-10-2011, 08:39 AM
I have a lot of sympathy for all concerned. I think Tzar may be mixing up two different rules. He seems to be referring to the first one which applies in the first round of main and qualifying draws.

What is needed for an alternate or Lucky Loser doubles team to replace another doubles team in a qualifying/main draw?

If one player of a team doesn't send in picks, it is enough to replace them for an alternate/LL. Note: both players must have sent picks to be able to get in the draw as alternates/LLs.

However the rule to be applied in this case is clearly the following one:-

What happens if a player of a team doesn't send picks?

The missing player gets 0 points. There's no W/O win for the opposing team.

Orangehat is right, there have been a number of instances in challengers where one player has beaten both his opponents unaided. I am ashamed to admit that my partner and I lost a doubles final recently to a single player.

There is provision in the spreadsheet for differences to be shown for Player A vs both opponents instead of just putting "missing picks from player B", and if the manager does not do this automatically the players usually ask for it.

Unfortunately there is no way of turning back the clock. Yes if the SF result had been published when it should have been FiBeR and manu would have sent their picks for the final, but there is no provision for replacing them by the losing semi-finalists.

This is my opinion as a member of the Board, but it is not given on behalf of the Board, so if other members disagree they will say so.

Taz Warrior
04-10-2011, 08:42 AM
^ I agree with Jim, Fiber and Manu86 won the SF with Fiber's picks alone. It's unfortunate that the SF result wasn't published in time but there's no provision for a losing team to go through just because a team didn't send picks in the next round.

Tzar
04-10-2011, 09:14 AM
The manager should be punished just like players are punished when they violate the code of conduct. He did not post the diffs within the first 4 hours of matchplay not even 1 time during this week and now he screws up the entire final. and it harms us directly as we were the defending champions, really disgusted with this whole thing. The board better do something about it, cause if not then its a joke and its just another reason to justify why TT's popularity keeps decreasing and less people offers to manage tourneys.

scoobs
04-10-2011, 09:28 AM
I fail to see why Tzar is so wound up about this - his team lost in the SFs, and whether or not they are defending champions is nothing to do with anything - they lost to one player. It happens. Substitutions only occur in QR1 and in R1 on day 1, for doubles, if 1 or both of a team didn't send, and there are alternates. After that, if 1 player doesn't send from a team, they play on and (usually) lose. That rule is clear. Sometimes the single player's picks are good enough to beat the picks of the opposing team. This happened with FiBeR with me in Barletta CH.

So what happens doesn't disadvantage Tzar or his partner at all, they were not harmed directly or indirectly as far as I can see.

If anyone should be upset it's manu86 and FiBeR because the situation has meant they didn't get their picks in for the final.

But it looks like the delays to the manager updating the thread has led to an unfortunate mess, which is a shame, but I think as a good rule of thumb, until the manager has posted the definitive results of a round, any match where the result is unclear, all players should send for the next round, to be on the safe side.

Taz Warrior
04-10-2011, 09:29 AM
The manager should be punished just like players are punished when they violate the code of conduct. He did not post the diffs within the first 4 hours of matchplay not even 1 time during this week and now he screws up the entire final. and it harms us directly as we were the defending champions, really disgusted with this whole thing. The board better do something about it, cause if not then its a joke and its just another reason to justify why TT's popularity keeps decreasing and less people offers to manage tourneys.

The people this harms most are Fiber and Manu86 as they didn't send picks for the final thinking they were out. It doesn't harm you at all as you lost the SF no matter what :scratch:

Labamba
04-10-2011, 09:51 AM
I agree with Jim and Gav.

rvugt's work as a manager will be reviewed after this tournament

Boarder35m
04-10-2011, 10:55 AM
I agree with Gavin and Jim. Ray and Fabio won with Rayīs picks alone.
It is really very unfortunate for them that the rsults werenīt published on time.
Only they have a reason to be angry, I donīt understand why Tzar is angry at all :shrug:

keqtqiadv
04-10-2011, 11:05 AM
But it looks like the delays to the manager updating the thread has led to an unfortunate mess, which is a shame, but I think as a good rule of thumb, until the manager has posted the definitive results of a round, any match where the result is unclear, all players should send for the next round, to be on the safe side.
I agree. It's an unfortunate situation, but it's surely not the first time differences/results weren't published in TT. rvugt hadn't posted the final results, so any of the teams could have won the match. Like others said, it was not the first time a player won a doubles match alone.

l_mac
04-10-2011, 11:12 AM
The manager should be punished just like players are punished when they violate the code of conduct. He did not post the diffs within the first 4 hours of matchplay not even 1 time during this week and now he screws up the entire final. and it harms us directly as we were the defending champions, really disgusted with this whole thing. The board better do something about it, cause if not then its a joke and its just another reason to justify why TT's popularity keeps decreasing and less people offers to manage tourneys.

More people are playing than ever :confused: And one of the reasons people don't want to manage tournaments is because of players like you. Only FiBeR and manu86 should feel hard done to with this situation.

dinkulpus
04-10-2011, 11:14 AM
More people are playing than ever :confused: And one of the reasons people don't want to manage tournaments is because of players like you.

I agree with this, I have something like a "black list" in my mind and I hope this players not to commit in any tournaments which I manage :wavey:

l_mac
04-10-2011, 11:35 AM
I looked at the Houston post and don't see the post where rvugt said it was a w/o for Allez-Alejo/Tzar? He didn't post anything that said they had won. (Unless the posts have been deleted) Tzar/AA assumed they won. While it is undeniable that rvugt should have posted diffs for that match, I think the onus was on FiBeR/manu86 to send picks. Plenty of times in the past 1 player has beaten 2, and it's not like either is new to TT.

FiBeR
04-10-2011, 02:19 PM
Well, then it is a waste of a final.

I looked at the Houston post and don't see the post where rvugt said it was a w/o for Allez-Alejo/Tzar? He didn't post anything that said they had won. (Unless the posts have been deleted) Tzar/AA assumed they won. While it is undeniable that rvugt should have posted diffs for that match, I think the onus was on FiBeR/manu86 to send picks. Plenty of times in the past 1 player has beaten 2, and it's not like either is new to TT.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_EckS-CRmAz4/TO5THrn-bmI/AAAAAAAACY0/nHqyrfH-W4w/s1600/vulture.gif

I ve played for longer than you and this had never happened in TT in this misleading way when a manager had been around to make this not happen

Allez-Alejo
04-10-2011, 03:57 PM
I looked at the Houston post and don't see the post where rvugt said it was a w/o for Allez-Alejo/Tzar? He didn't post anything that said they had won. (Unless the posts have been deleted) Tzar/AA assumed they won. While it is undeniable that rvugt should have posted diffs for that match, I think the onus was on FiBeR/manu86 to send picks. Plenty of times in the past 1 player has beaten 2, and it's not like either is new to TT.

About two hours after play began on Friday, the manager posted that manu sent picks 30 minutes late and thus, that we had won the round. I just assumed that there was not a sufficient amount of difs for Ray to win by himself. I was a bit upset due to the fact that I thought we were in the final and only found out of this situation when difs were posted yesterday, after Sweeting had already won. I understand that difs can not always be on time, but in the latter stages of a small tournament like this, results should at least be posted in a time frame such that players have a sufficient time frame to look them over and then send picks accordingly.

Jero is going to say what he is going to say. So he is a upset, I don't see the big deal there. Certainly this is worse for Ray and Manu. They had no reason to send picks. How are they to blame for not knowing they actually won? All that was available were the difs from Friday stating that we had won due to manu sending late. Once again, I deduced that this was due to Ray not having enough dif possibilities.

BTW...this isn't directed just towards Linda...this is in response to everyone, I just quoted her for the first part.

Allez-Alejo
04-10-2011, 04:00 PM
Maybe I will start managing again.

rodrigol_87
04-10-2011, 04:21 PM
Hi everyone! I have a question... I'm on Recife final and it's suspended since yesterday because of rain... now we have to send Final match picks with 4 posible matches... my question is... can I send two posible picks for the same match? One in case my diff was right and one in case my diff was wrong? I copy you the situation...
Final

Matches Counted: 0
Matches Remaining: 3

00:00 | (1) Rodrigol_87 (ARG) vs. (2) Maldini (SWI) - No Winners Diffs - SR Diff: Lapentti 2-0 vs. Lapentti 2-1

Because if Lapentti wins 2-0 I wanna send my last pick in a way and if he wins 2-1 I wanna send it in another way because I'd be SRs 0-1!

I hope you undestand me...
Thanks!

orangehat
04-10-2011, 04:29 PM
i don't think it's allowed in the rules.

Allez-Alejo
04-10-2011, 04:31 PM
Hi everyone! I have a question... I'm on Recife final and it's suspended since yesterday because of rain... now we have to send Final match picks with 4 posible matches... my question is... can I send two posible picks for the same match? One in case my diff was right and one in case my diff was wrong? I copy you the situation...
Final

Matches Counted: 0
Matches Remaining: 3

00:00 | (1) Rodrigol_87 (ARG) vs. (2) Maldini (SWI) - No Winners Diffs - SR Diff: Lapentti 2-0 vs. Lapentti 2-1

Because if Lapentti wins 2-0 I wanna send my last pick in a way and if he wins 2-1 I wanna send it in another way because I'd be SRs 0-1!

I hope you undestand me...
Thanks!

No...you can only send one set of picks via the OOP, as I understand it.

rodrigol_87
04-10-2011, 04:38 PM
Thanks to all for their answers! :hatoff:

FiBeR
04-10-2011, 04:39 PM
Maybe I will start managing again.

x2. Too much clownery.

Can't believe any real manager saying it was our fault for not sending... I can expect it from some but from keqtqiadv :confused:

but it's surely not the first time differences/results weren't published in TT

let me know when was the previous time a manager being around had not stated a team had chances when 1vs2 and that team won..

Whoever claims we should have sent for the final are pushing it too much. I was told I had no chance, why should I send picks??? I wonder if any of the ones who think otherwise would have sent for the final in my place.

Don't :bs: me, you wouldn't have sent in my place. Would you?
I can take the loss but not the :bs:...

Allez-Alejo
04-10-2011, 04:47 PM
I think what they're not understanding is that rvugt posted..."manu86 sent 30 minutes late...Allez-Alejo/Tzar win."...something to that effect. To me, I take that as meaning you couldn't have beat us alone.

In an instance when one team member doesn't send in any tourney that I have ever managed, I would still either post the differences if there is still a chance they could win alone, or specifically state, "not enough difs."

Tzar
04-10-2011, 05:17 PM
Raul tienes que estar consciente de que si los afectados hubiesen sido otras personas como alguno de los board members, la forma de resolverlo hubiese sido completamente diferente. Hay un problema de selectividad y "discriminacion" por asi decirlo contra aquellos que no son de su grupito. Patetico, siento mucho que esto haya ocurrido. :(

rvugt
04-10-2011, 05:22 PM
Okay, just a small mention from my side. I am completely the one to blame me here. I am sorry about that, and people saying that FiBeR and manu86 had to send, they are wrong. I didn't mean to say that Allez-Alejo/Tzar had already won, but I was thinking that they did, so I might have written something like that. So if people want to punish me and be angry at me they have all the right!

There are just two things I would like to bring back to this discussion:
- First of all, in general posting diffs is enough, because people can see who won. If that is not clear, they should ask in the thread. As the thread was completely quiet over the days (which I btw didn't like, as it looked like no-one cared), I expected that posting the diffs was enough. Of course I should have posted results, especially on the last day, but on the other days it wasn't the biggest problem when I didn't have time to do it, at least, that was how I interpreted it!
-Second is indeed the misbehavior of Tzar, please be a little bit nicer. First of all, in the first days I posted the diffs within an hour of the deadline. So please don't tell lies here. I know you don't like that I made a mistake, but you are the only one taking it so big! I am human too and mistakes are possible! But well, if you don't like me managing I will quit again, but in 3 months I know there will be a tournament which nobody can do and I might jump in again to help. As a matter of fact, I am not asking for tournaments, just when they are still available in the week they should be opened!

I know I am wrong, I just don't think Tzar should be talking like this, as he isn't the one who gets disadvantaged here!

rvugt
04-10-2011, 05:23 PM
Raul tienes que estar consciente de que si los afectados hubiesen sido otras personas como alguno de los board members, la forma de resolverlo hubiese sido completamente diferente. Hay un problema de selectividad y "discriminacion" por asi decirlo contra aquellos que no son de su grupito. Patetico, siento mucho que esto haya ocurrido. :(

And really, sorry about asking to write things in English in this thread. I really don't like it when I don't know what you are talking about!

Taz Warrior
04-10-2011, 05:47 PM
And really, sorry about asking to write things in English in this thread. I really don't like it when I don't know what you are talking about!

As I understand it (and somebody who speaks better spanish than me can contradict me if I'm wrong),he is basically questioning the integrity of the TT Board, saying that this would have been dealt with differently if a Board Member had been affected by this, which is completely untrue showing a complete lack of knowledge of difficult decisions that the board have made in the past than has disadvantaged Board Members in the past.

FiBeR
04-10-2011, 06:29 PM
As I understand it (and somebody who speaks better spanish than me can contradict me if I'm wrong),he is basically questioning the integrity of the TT Board, saying that this would have been dealt with differently if a Board Member had been affected by this, which is completely untrue showing a complete lack of knowledge of difficult decisions that the board have made in the past than has disadvantaged Board Members in the past.

I dont entirely agree with Tzar but there is evidence for him to say what he says...Am I wrong? BTW must be a very difficult decision not to do anything about this (or about 2007-8-9-10) :hatoff: my respects to you

Taz Warrior
04-10-2011, 06:39 PM
I dont entirely agree with Tzar but there is evidence for him to say what he says...Am I wrong? BTW must be a very difficult decision not to do anything about this (or about 2007-8-9-10) :hatoff: my respects to you

Well, I think he's wrong. It's perfectly fine and natural for people to disgaree with us but to question the Board's integrity is completely out of order. All members of the Board have outstanding character and all decisions are made completely impartially and are not made with any bias to the players concerned.

Tzar
04-10-2011, 07:00 PM
Well, I think he's wrong. It's perfectly fine and natural for people to disgaree with us but to question the Board's integrity is completely out of order. All members of the Board have outstanding and all decisions are made completely impartially and are not made with any bias to the players concerned.

That is very subjective.

And no it's not out of order, as I do have prove. I said on the thread that a solution could be playing the final with only sunday's match so Fiber and Manu have a shot to win the title, and no one even commented on that, all you said was They win, they're in the final, too bad they got screwed. No interest in trying to find a solution or anything to help them out/compensate them. You rather focus on pointing out how "rude" I am. If you guys think I'm a tough cookie, I wonder how you deal with people in real life.

dinkulpus
04-10-2011, 07:10 PM
I want to commend Belludal for his excellent work in his two first tournament like a manager, hope that he will continue managing Tennis Tipping, we definitely need managers like him :worship:

scoobs
04-10-2011, 07:20 PM
That is very subjective.

And no it's not out of order, as I do have prove. I said on the thread that a solution could be playing the final with only sunday's match so Fiber and Manu have a shot to win the title, and no one even commented on that, all you said was They win, they're in the final, too bad they got screwed. No interest in trying to find a solution or anything to help them out/compensate them. You rather focus on pointing out how "rude" I am. If you guys think I'm a tough cookie, I wonder how you deal with people in real life.

That's not proof of anything. That's a possible solution that you proposed, which happens to violate the standing TT rules as they are widely understood. Maybe the board can attempt to devise a solution to avoid this kind of problem in the future, but to start making things up at short notice, mid tournament, is not a good idea. The rules as they are understood should be applied and then if they need to be reviewed, that should be done at a later time.

Meanwhile, you've basically accused the TT board of having one rule for them and their friends and another rule for everybody else, and if you're going to fling accusations like that around, you should be able to offer some real proof to back them up. So far, I haven't seen any.

keqtqiadv
04-10-2011, 07:23 PM
x2. Too much clownery.

Can't believe any real manager saying it was our fault for not sending... I can expect it from some but from keqtqiadv :confused:



let me know when was the previous time a manager being around had not stated a team had chances when 1vs2 and that team won..

Whoever claims we should have sent for the final are pushing it too much. I was told I had no chance, why should I send picks??? I wonder if any of the ones who think otherwise would have sent for the final in my place.

Don't :bs: me, you wouldn't have sent in my place. Would you?
I can take the loss but not the :bs:...
I didn't see any post by rvugt saying you had lost in the thread. Posting that one of the players hasn't sent picks isn't the same thing as saying the team has no chances to win or saying the opposing team has won. If he actually said that somewhere else, then there would obviously be no reason why you should have sent picks and what I said wouldn't be valid.

FiBeR
04-10-2011, 07:31 PM
Well, I think he's wrong. It's perfectly fine and natural for people to disgaree with us but to question the Board's integrity is completely out of order. All members of the Board have outstanding character and all decisions are made completely impartially and are not made with any bias to the players concerned.

I dont disagree cos there is nothing to agree or disagree here (since there wasn't any action taken)

I think Tzar meant that BM have a thing in acting when the involved ones are their friends or themselves but act differently otherwise. I add that they only decide to stick their noses unless they re pushed to the extreme cos they cant be bothered, except when something catches their eye or becomes close to them/involves them.

In my view I see Tzar has a point since I've complained for three seasons about bullism. Back then some BM encouraged the guy b/c they were friends with him and at best decided not to act. Yet there is this "Code of Conduct" project going on about "how to behave".

But somehow that is not being biased is it? yet of course we need a new chair so we can sit around and make big decisions like if 6-4 6-3 should be the same as 6-3 6-4

:shrug: