Fed vs Nad on fast hardcourts [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Fed vs Nad on fast hardcourts

fsoica
08-22-2010, 09:32 AM
Imho, fast hardcourts are/were Cincinnati, USOpen, WTF, Sydney/Athens/Beijing Olympics.

Cincinnati: Fed has 4 finals/3 wins ----------- Nadal - 0 finals
USOpen: Fed has 6 finals/5 wins -------- Nadal has 0 finals
WTF: Fed has 5 finals/4 wins -------- Nadal has 0 finals (Fed is 2-0 vs Nad on WTF)
Olympics singles: Fed has 0 finals -------- Nadal has 1 final/1 win

I don't know about Dubai, but I think it's quite fast, too...

Fed has 4 finals/3 wins ------ Nadal has 1 final/1 win (vs. Fed, btw)...

Any corrections or smth to add to this statistic ?

And, finally (just to make some posters here understand how stupid their questions sound): WHO IS BETTER ON FAST HC? Fed or NAD ?

Armless
08-22-2010, 09:33 AM
tough question... Ima go with Fed...

finn98
08-22-2010, 09:33 AM
:zzz: :zzz:

Speed of Light
08-22-2010, 10:02 AM
Fed is nearing the end of his career. Nad is in his prime, expect things to change... Accomplishment comparisons will only be valid after their respective careers are over.

fsoica
08-22-2010, 10:04 AM
Fed is nearing the end of his career. Nad is in his prime, expect things to change... Accomplishment comparisons will only be valid after their respective careers are over.

Absolutely.

Anyway, I don't expect Nadal to rock on fast HC with Murray, Djokovic, Cilic, Gulbis and del Potro also in their prime.

samanosuke
08-22-2010, 10:21 AM
Nadal isn't neither in top 20 of fast hard court players . He looks funny on fast courts . His BH is clownish shot . He is capable only to play slice , and that slice is :haha: . That are best examples where Nadal would be 10-15 years ago when every court except clay was fast . On this kind of courts neither his brainless running could help him . His 2 Wimbledon titles are the biggest disgraces for tennis . Few years ago ¸on grass it was impossible on good slice response with enormous spin and these days this is normal and there is no utility from a good slice . In today's tennis everything is made for brainless moonballers

careergrandslam
08-22-2010, 10:50 AM
rafa is a mug on fast hardcourts, even he admitted in an interview that he struggles alot on fast hardcourts.

this why he will never win cincy, USO and WTF.
too fast for him.

lazybear
08-22-2010, 11:07 AM
Fed is nearing the end of his career. Nad is in his prime, expect things to change... Accomplishment comparisons will only be valid after their respective careers are over.

He obviously never will be in the same ball park as a hard court player. Nadal is not a hard court player, but he's not a grass court player either, yet he's effective on grass. The reasons are not that important right now. One more thing to add, if they would play 10 matches on super fast hard courts, i wouldn't expect Roger to beat Nadal 8 out ot 10 times, like the spaniard does on clay...

It would be more like 6-4, or 7-3, and even that is questionable, if they'd play those 10 matches in the next one year, for example... But that obviously wouldn't mean Rafa is better on hard courts... He is, was, and just will be a horrible matchup for Roger, as we all know. He would be one on ice, sand, and if they were playing on the moon, probably. Well, maybe not on the moon, his topsin wouldn't do too much damage there.

fsoica
08-22-2010, 11:20 AM
He is, was, and just will be a horrible matchup for Roger, as we all know. He would be one on ice, sand, and if they were playing on the moon, probably. Well, maybe not on the moon, his topsin wouldn't do too much damage there.

Yeah, I can't wait for the day when NASA will transport 2 top tennis players to the moon for a scifi exo :D

Shirogane
08-22-2010, 11:21 AM
Fed vs Nad on fast hardcourts


Seems like we'll never know. :shrug:

fsoica
08-22-2010, 11:34 AM
Seems like we'll never know. :shrug:

Something tells me this USOpen will tell us smth abt it ;)

borracho
08-22-2010, 12:15 PM
things are not that simple, you always have to take form, H2H, confidence etc into account. Tennis isn't mathematics. Clearly Fed did better in the past, but that's no guarantee he'll ship the US Open.

laurie-1
08-22-2010, 12:18 PM
I've never been to Indian Wells. How would you describe that court?

Nadal has won twice there I think. The court always appears medium slow to me but the balls are light and do they play in altitude there? And the balls fly through the air quicker?

Why would Nadal do better at Indian Wells than some of the other events?

fsoica
08-22-2010, 12:24 PM
Why would Nadal do better at Indian Wells than some of the other events?

It's a mistery to me.
Nadal is a good HC player, no doubt abt it.
Only not a natural on the surface.
So this means he can be blown off the court by some of the good defensive-offensive players out there (like Djokovic, davydenko, cilic).
Maybe not meating them and being well rested and full of hunger and confidence was the key for him.

And Fed limping, also ;)
(ok, I'm mean)

laurie-1
08-22-2010, 12:39 PM
It's a mistery to me.
Nadal is a good HC player, no doubt abt it.
Only not a natural on the surface.
So this means he can be blown off the court by some of the good defensive-offensive players out there (like Djokovic, davydenko, cilic).
Maybe not meating them and being well rested and full of hunger and confidence was the key for him.

And Fed limping, also ;)
(ok, I'm mean)

Well Clay Death started that thread about Nadal winning the US Open. I was one of the first to reply and I said it would be extremely difficult for Nadal to win the US Open.

For the reasons you said. If we look at what happened in the semis in 2008 and 2009, Nadal struggles against guys who attack him and put the pressure on. And in previous years there Youzny and Blake stretched him a lot with the backhand down the line tactic.

The reason Nadal struggles is the ball shoots through on the fast hard courts, he's often rushed. Plus in North America those Wilson and Penn balls are different to the Slazenger balls at Wimbledon for instance. They really aid attacking aggressive players.

I still think Nadal is not able to win the US Open this year, it would be nice if he pulled it off but it would be a huge surprise - there are too many big hitters around on the hard courts.

thrust
08-22-2010, 01:38 PM
Seems like we'll never know. :shrug:

We do know! There can be no doubt Roger is the better player on a fast hard court, and Rafa is better on clay.

Persimmon
08-22-2010, 01:48 PM
rafa is a mug on fast hardcourts, even he admitted in an interview that he struggles alot on fast hardcourts.

this why he will never win cincy, USO and WTF.
too fast for him.

+1.

Filo V.
08-22-2010, 01:59 PM
Roger is a great hard court player, Rafa is a great clay court player, they are both great on grass.

But people underrate Rafa's ability on hard and Roger's ability on clay. They may not dominate those surfaces, but they are good players on them.

swisht4u
08-22-2010, 02:07 PM
Look no further at what Murray did to Nadal at the AO and the utter destruction at the USO last year.
Not to mention a way past his prime Fed still going further at Toronto and now Cincinnati.
Even Davydenko is taking him apart recently.
Nadal may have some trouble with his knees but all players have things go wrong, whether it's the serve not working, forehand spraying or whatever. The bottom line is nothing goes right all the time for many players. The best will get to the top eventually and be a constant contender, Nadal has done well and is still feared on any surface.
I don't care about the excuses, is the job getting done is what matters and on HC the answer is no for Nadal.

sabina_RF_lee
08-22-2010, 02:15 PM
r u kidding???
of course FED
nadal sucks on HC

Shirogane
08-22-2010, 02:21 PM
We do know! There can be no doubt Roger is the better player on a fast hard court, and Rafa is better on clay.

I specifically quoted Fed vs Nad on fast hardcourts before saying that.

I've actually been rooting for that, it just seems to keep not happening. :)

samanosuke
08-22-2010, 02:31 PM
Roger is a great hard court player, Rafa is a great clay court player, they are both great on grass.

But people underrate Rafa's ability on hard and Roger's ability on clay. They may not dominate those surfaces, but they are good players on them.

I agree that Rafa is great grass court player , but only in today's grass . Can't imagine him even in QF 10 years ago

You have to make a difference between speeds of HC's . It's huge difference between court speed in IW or Canada and Cincinnati or USO , balls at IW and Canada respond to spin very well and don't respond on slice , with Cincy and USO situation is opposite .

straitup
08-22-2010, 02:57 PM
Rafa is easily a top 20 player on hard court, even fast hard courts. Thinking otherwise is wrong

Manequin75
08-22-2010, 03:37 PM
Fed-Rafa threads should not be open to haters of any of the players. Just to fans of either of the players. Reading this forum makes me notice extreme hatred towards a player more than fans of a player talking.

Rafa is dominant on clay. Roger is dominant on HC. Rafa is more dominant on clay then Roger is on any surface.

But i dont buy the fact that Rafa cant win on fast hard court and that he has no chance at the USO. Sure he is not the top favorite but he is one of the favorites and I expect him to do very well in New York. With a good draw he can go all the way. I am hoping for a Fedal final on September 12 in New York. We shall see.

HKz
08-22-2010, 03:44 PM
Yeah as if the choice is so difficult to make o.O

Either way, Nadal's game just won't be suited for hardcourts, EVER. I'm not trying to be mean, but he isn't going to be able to change grips or develop a proper and consistent flat serve, and he is right to do so because he will probably end up playing bad overall on all surfaces because no body changes anything major after they've become pro. They fine tune their game, but I don't think anyone has dramatically changed their game and got good in time to be a top contender. Fact is, Nadal's game is based on high percentages, and that isn't going to cut it on fast hardcourts, because even "pushers" and counter-punchers like Hewitt/Murray/etc take more risks than I've seen Nadal on fast hardcourts.

His forehand has too extreme of a grip on hardcourts. Against big hitters, you see how it just sits up. His backhand side is strangely pretty weak on hardcourts even though he is able to flatten that shot a lot more easily than his forehand.. His serve is too much of a liability on hardcourts. He gets away with it on clay/grass as we all know, especially when he plays a player with a weak backhand. But on hardcourts, we have seen how any player with a decent backhand can really punish Nadal at crucial moments on his serve, especially that second serve which is many times as slow as Murray's..

kobulingam
08-22-2010, 04:11 PM
Who asked about IW speed?

Everyone knows IW is slower than ass.

Ibracadabra
08-22-2010, 04:13 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY27u0y_BUA

Hope this helps. Federer would never be beaten 2,2,2

Matt01
08-22-2010, 06:26 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY27u0y_BUA

Hope this helps.


It doesn't. Nice try, though.

Sillyrabbit
08-22-2010, 06:31 PM
I don't think it's as easy for Federer as people think, if Federer-Nadal fast hardcourt matches would be played based solely on talent and how good each player is on hardcourt, then Federer would win quite easily thrashing Nadal from now till eternity. But as we've seen Nadal is really just a bad match up for Federer and the mental block factor which Federer seems to have when facing him also comes into play.

Matt01
08-22-2010, 06:41 PM
And, finally (just to make some posters here understand how stupid their questions sound): WHO IS BETTER ON FAST HC? Fed or NAD ?


When you ask the question like this, then I have to answer that Federer is better on fast HC, since his record at the US Open is much better.

Luinir
08-22-2010, 06:52 PM
Nadal can beat "this" Federer on decoturf. Chip and charge doesn't work on Nadal (and on Murray). We'll see if they play at US Open...

ApproachShot
08-22-2010, 07:09 PM
Roger is a great hard court player, Rafa is a great clay court player, they are both great on grass.

But people underrate Rafa's ability on hard and Roger's ability on clay. They may not dominate those surfaces, but they are good players on them.

Quoted for truth.

Remember that Federer - despite always being a good clay courter - only made his first RG final on his 8th attempt and won his first title on the 11th attempt. Nadal is not best suited to fast hardcourts but making to USO semifinals (losing to the in-form Murray and Del Potro respectively, who arguably play best on that surface) is by no means a paltry feat. I believe Nadal will have further chances to make it to USO finals if not to win the tournament. Likewise for Fed, his RG title was in no way a fluke as some people seem to suggest; he is a an accomplished competitor on clay.

Back to the original question. Hypothetically if they were to play 30 matches (10 on clay, 10 on grass and 10 on fast hardcourt) I imagine their head to head would be something like 8-2, 4-6, 3-7 (Nadal-Federer). With slower hardcourts in the mix, I imagine it would be something more like 6-4 to Fed.

born_on_clay
08-22-2010, 07:16 PM
Federer without a doubt ;)

Sophocles
08-22-2010, 08:06 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY27u0y_BUA

Hope this helps. Federer would never be beaten 2,2,2

Such hilarious ownage never gets old. Tard Da Fail cries like a little girl every time he watches it.

Filo V.
08-22-2010, 08:34 PM
I agree that Rafa is great grass court player , but only in today's grass . Can't imagine him even in QF 10 years ago

You have to make a difference between speeds of HC's . It's huge difference between court speed in IW or Canada and Cincinnati or USO , balls at IW and Canada respond to spin very well and don't respond on slice , with Cincy and USO situation is opposite .

I agree with the differences in speed/grit of hard courts being more/less of an advantage for Nadal, but then again, they are all hard court events. He's a top player on slower hard, and a decent one on fast hard courts. He's not a bad fast hard court player, which is what some here seem to believe. As far as grass is concerned, the natural surface of grass really helps Rafa with his shots and action on the ball, I think he would be good on the old grass, probably not a Wimbledon champ, but not bad by any means, simply because of it being grass.

Filo V.
08-22-2010, 08:36 PM
The fact that Rafa has even made the SF twice at the US Open is an accomplishment with a game that is so poorly suited to the surface. You have to give him kudos for trying his all to win on all surfaces.

swisht4u
08-22-2010, 09:02 PM
The fact that Rafa has even made the SF twice at the US Open is an accomplishment with a game that is so poorly suited to the surface. You have to give him kudos for trying his all to win on all surfaces.
-
He's a tremendous fighter, I don't know who would say different.
Rafa does good in that he makes the SF, however the number of players that have the type of game to beat him on hard surfaces is growing.

samanosuke
08-22-2010, 09:16 PM
I agree with the differences in speed/grit of hard courts being more/less of an advantage for Nadal, but then again, they are all hard court events. He's a top player on slower hard, and a decent one on fast hard courts. He's not a bad fast hard court player, which is what some here seem to believe. As far as grass is concerned, the natural surface of grass really helps Rafa with his shots and action on the ball, I think he would be good on the old grass, probably not a Wimbledon champ, but not bad by any means, simply because of it being grass.



I really doubt in his abilities on old grass . For example if he was playing just 10 years ago he would be very vulnerable to guys like Thomas Johansson or Bjorkman and I really doubt that he would survive this year match against Petzschner on faster and more slippery grass

Filo V.
08-22-2010, 09:22 PM
-
He's a tremendous fighter, I don't know who would say different.
Rafa does good in that he makes the SF, however the number of players that have the type of game to beat him on hard surfaces is growing.

It is, but he's also improved his game on hard court quite a bit from where it was, even this time last year. So while there might be more players or a lot of players with the game to beat Nadal on hard courts, he is likewise improved to make sure that doesn't happen.

Filo V.
08-22-2010, 09:26 PM
I really doubt in his abilities on old grass . For example if he was playing just 10 years ago he would be very vulnerable to guys like Thomas Johansson or Bjorkman and I really doubt that he would survive this year match against Petzschner on faster and more slippery grass

He would be more vulnerable, I agree, but I really think his shots would get a heck of a lot of help with the slicker and skiddier grass courts. It would add a lot more life to his shots. Also, he still would get the work on his ball from the natural grass surface. That combo would be tough to beat. The downsides would be that he would be more easily attacked so that's where I think he would have serious issues, and I don't know/think he could actually win major(s) on the surface, but I do think he would do well for himself.

Shirogane
08-22-2010, 09:26 PM
I really doubt in his abilities on old grass . For example if he was playing just 10 years ago he would be very vulnerable to guys like Thomas Johansson or Bjorkman and I really doubt that he would survive this year match against Petzschner on faster and more slippery grass

Robert Kendrick comes to mind, too.

Filo V.
08-22-2010, 09:27 PM
Robert Kendrick comes to mind, too.

Yes, but that was in 2006. Which is like a different player to the current Nadal.

samanosuke
08-22-2010, 09:38 PM
He would be more vulnerable, I agree, but I really think his shots would get a heck of a lot of help with the slicker and skiddier grass courts. It would add a lot more life to his shots. Also, he still would get the work on his ball from the natural grass surface. That combo would be tough to beat. The downsides would be that he would be more easily attacked so that's where I think he would have serious issues, and I don't know/think he could actually win major(s) on the surface, but I do think he would do well for himself.

His grass court success is mainly in his ability to derive in every point on FH side and starting initiative in point with his FH and he uses BH spin more often on grass then he used in Cincy or other faster HC's . Faster grass wouldn't allow to him enough time to set up his FH on almost every shot and his BH spin would be almost useless and we all agree that his BH slice isn't neither even close to the great shot . That's are main reason why I don't believe in his " true " grass abilities

Filo V.
08-22-2010, 10:45 PM
His grass court success is mainly in his ability to derive in every point on FH side and starting initiative in point with his FH and he uses BH spin more often on grass then he used in Cincy or other faster HC's . Faster grass wouldn't allow to him enough time to set up his FH on almost every shot and his BH spin would be almost useless and we all agree that his BH slice isn't neither even close to the great shot . That's are main reason why I don't believe in his " true " grass abilities

Good points, although his slice would work well enough on the older grass. It would stay lower and be pretty hard to attack if he gets it deep enough, which may be an issue. I think Rafa's serve would be helped a lot with the older grass, but I do agree he would have more issues with being able to dominate with the forehand, which is the biggest issue he would have and why I don't think he would win many if any events on the surface. Then again, I think he would get a lot of easy replies with his serve, and if he gets the opponents' serve back, he would still be likely to win most rallies. Players would still be forced to take lots of risks and would make lots of errors. Also, S&V players give Rafa a target and with the spin he puts on the ball plus the fact he's left-handed, that would be a terror for them. His lack of a great return is the one thing that would get really exposed on the old grass.