How long will Nole waste his career with that guy (Marian Vajda)? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

How long will Nole waste his career with that guy (Marian Vajda)?

munZe konZa
08-20-2010, 09:37 PM
you know the short fat guy, his "coach" .Who isn't tired of watching this guy at every match and who isn't tired of watching Nole lose badly? I mean he should have changed the coach 2 years when the problems were apparent but he is stubbornly sticking with it and he is sinking like a quicksand

Does this guy help him with his serve?
Does he help him with the conditiong and allergies ?
Does he give him nutritional advice?
Does he help him with motivation?

It's probably better if he were alone instead of such a company but he is wasting his career , no slam finals in over 2 years, only 1 masters in last 2 years but so many pathetic losses where he just gave up.

brent-o
08-20-2010, 09:40 PM
you know the short fat guy, his "coach" .Who isn't tired of watching this guy at every match and who isn't tired of watching Nole lose badly? I mean he should have changed the coach 2 years when the problems were apparent but he is stubbornly sticking with it and he is sinking like a quicksand

Does this guy help him with his serve?
Does he help him with the conditiong and allergies ?
Does he give him nutritional advice?
Does he help him with motivation?

It's probably better if he were alone instead of such a company but he is wasting his career , no slam finals in over 2 years, only 1 masters in last 2 years but so many pathetic losses where he just gave up.

Is that all a result of bad coaching though? You don't know that. There can be many factors.

ZaZoo)
08-20-2010, 09:41 PM
All Novak miss is his old game, flat strokes, flat and strong serve. But considering Novak haven't even tried to return to that hitting for 2 years now, I'm quite pessimistic about his future.

ApproachShot
08-20-2010, 09:44 PM
If you meana Marijan Vajda, then I doubt anytime soon - especially after his failed advernture with Todd Martin.

munZe konZa
08-20-2010, 09:45 PM
Is that all a result of bad coaching though? You don't know that. There can be many factors.

yes of course it is because he is at his every match literally . You would think he would do something with him with all that time but no , Nole just gets the same or worse

Roddickominator
08-20-2010, 09:47 PM
They are lovers....you cannot separate true love. That is more important than tennis.

munZe konZa
08-20-2010, 09:48 PM
If you meana Marijan Vajda, then I doubt anytime soon - especially after his failed advernture with Todd Martin.

this guy is a proven failure, no doubt about it. I don't know about Martin but he was with him for a short time and can not be blamed. At this point any change from this guy would be good

BigJohn
08-20-2010, 09:52 PM
Career high #2 just last week, why change a winning formula?

MIMIC
08-20-2010, 09:53 PM
I don't think his coach is the problem. Novak, mentally, just doesn't seem up to the task. You can't help someone who doesn't put in a full effort.

emotion
08-20-2010, 09:58 PM
He is a great coach. He demoted him earlier this year with disastrous results. You can't cure asthma, btw, and the treatment is banned.

green25814
08-20-2010, 10:02 PM
It has nothing to do with the coach.

Ben.
08-20-2010, 10:03 PM
The thing is he has gotten up to number 2 a couple of times this year and been reaching slam quarters and semis even while visibly being far from him former self.

Voo de Mar
08-20-2010, 10:09 PM
Fat Marian is a tennis legend, has 3-0 record against Vilas who was 34 when they met :worship: ;)

Steelq
08-20-2010, 10:10 PM
Nole should retire for his fans.

munZe konZa
08-20-2010, 10:11 PM
Career high #2 just last week, why change a winning formula?

a winning formula of what ? what did he win actually in last 2 years?
it takes a while to remember and it's not impressive for his talent

I don't think his coach is the problem. Novak, mentally, just doesn't seem up to the task. You can't help someone who doesn't put in a full effort.
he qualified for a grand slam at 17 and won it at 20 so by no means is he a weakling. He is just surrounded by losers and a bad advice. He looks lost for a couple of years now and is losing badly and hopelessly largely by himself.


He is a great coach. He demoted him earlier this year with disastrous results. You can't cure asthma, btw, and the treatment is banned.

a terrible coach who looks fat,clueless and unmotivated and is turning Nole into a hopeless case as well. Asthma can be cured of course as it's related to mineral deficiencies and nutritional imbalances. You can't excuse this guy because he is there at his every match and it doesn't matter. Nole was already a good player before he met with him but he is now worse than ever and looks hopeless as well.

green25814
08-20-2010, 10:13 PM
a winning formula of what ? what did he win actually in last 2 years?
it takes a while to remember and it's not impressive for his talent


he qualified for a grand slam at 17 and won it at 20 so by no means is he a weakling. He is just surrounded by losers and a bad advice. He looks lost for a couple of years now and is losing badly and hopelessly largely by himself.




a terrible coach who looks fat,clueless and unmotivated and is turning Nole into a hopeless case as well. Asthma can be cured of course as it's related to mineral deficiencies and nutritional imbalances. You can't excuse this guy because he is there at his every match and it doesn't matter. Nole was already a good player before he met with him but he is now worse than ever and looks hopeless as well.

So basically, you are blaming the coach for not giving Novak oncourt coaching, ie: cheating?

Get outta here.

misty1
08-20-2010, 10:14 PM
The thing is he has gotten up to number 2 a couple of times this year and been reaching slam quarters and semis even while visibly being far from him former self.

yes but in some of those events he was aided with some rediculous draws

Puschkin
08-20-2010, 10:15 PM
a terrible coach who looks fat,clueless and unmotivated and is turning Nole into a hopeless case as well.

Obviously you are on a wild hunt for a scapegoat. That way out is too easy.

Arkulari
08-20-2010, 10:20 PM
Nole lost his cockiness and along with it went his confidence, the Djoker of 2008 played a thousand times better than this washed-up version that hasn't even won a MS since Paris-Tankcy last year

emotion
08-20-2010, 10:21 PM
a terrible coach who looks fat,clueless and unmotivated and is turning Nole into a hopeless case as well. Asthma can be cured of course as it's related to mineral deficiencies and nutritional imbalances. You can't excuse this guy because he is there at his every match and it doesn't matter. Nole was already a good player before he met with him but he is now worse than ever and looks hopeless as well.

my mother is a doctor. asthma can not be cured.

latso
08-20-2010, 10:33 PM
I don't think his coach is the problem. Novak, mentally, just doesn't seem up to the task. You can't help someone who doesn't put in a full effort.
that's exactly why he needs a new coach/motivator

and u surely can change a player and his attitude

latso
08-20-2010, 10:35 PM
my mother is a doctor. asthma can not be cured.
my mother isn't but this is true :D

not a coincidence that they allow some "edgy" (actually totally forbiden for anyone else) drugs in the biathlon for example

River
08-20-2010, 10:50 PM
He's won one Grand Slam as has been in the top ten for a good number of years now. I don't know about you guys, but his career isn't as bad as you people think.

One Grand Slam is better than none. I bet you Murray would kill to have Nole's wins.

MacTheKnife
08-20-2010, 10:54 PM
I think most of us are just comparing what he "could have done", not what he has done. Obviously he has been a very successful player. But what could have he have been without all this physical and mental stuff.

Maybe dumping martin was not as smart as it seemed at the time. At least he was playing more aggressively and his attitude was better with martin in the camp.

munZe konZa
08-20-2010, 10:54 PM
my mother is a doctor. asthma can not be cured.

so what ? all doctors claim that there is no cure for anything, that's how they stay in business. Quick search will tell you that asthma is related to Magnesium deficiency (http://www.ctds.info/5_13_magnesium.html#magnesium_asthma) and probably to some amino acid inbalance or deficiency

careergrandslam
08-20-2010, 11:00 PM
when the arrogant 2008 djokovic returns, then he will start winning.

MacTheKnife
08-20-2010, 11:03 PM
Probably true. He has lost that cocky edge that a little arrogance provides.

munZe konZa
08-20-2010, 11:03 PM
He's won one Grand Slam as has been in the top ten for a good number of years now. I don't know about you guys, but his career isn't as bad as you people think.

One Grand Slam is better than none. I bet you Murray would kill to have Nole's wins.

way to lower the expectations :rolleyes:
Did you say that when he won his grand slam which is almost 3 years ago

bokehlicious
08-20-2010, 11:04 PM
who isn't tired of watching Nole lose badly?

I get easily tired, but surely never by this... :)

munZe konZa
08-20-2010, 11:05 PM
when the arrogant 2008 djokovic returns, then he will start winning.

he looks and plays hopeless because he is surrounded by losers or a single loser . Sometime he looks good but it's very short lived.

MacTheKnife
08-20-2010, 11:06 PM
I get easily tired, but surely never by this... :)

Clever.. :yeah:

cocrcici
08-20-2010, 11:06 PM
Until the end of the world:sad:;)

dombrfc
08-20-2010, 11:20 PM
Maybe he just isnt good enough to be what some of you fans expect?

madmax
08-20-2010, 11:24 PM
or maybe he just passed his peak and will never be the same again?

born_on_clay
08-20-2010, 11:25 PM
I think it will be better for Nole to consider hiring somebody new

Johnny Groove
08-20-2010, 11:41 PM
As some said before, he needs to get his arrogance/cockiness back.

Certinfy
08-21-2010, 12:17 AM
Just makes me wonder how much he could of achieved since 2008 had he kept his awesome level of play up.

careergrandslam
08-21-2010, 12:25 AM
can we pinpoint nole's turning point in 2008 after his amazing run during the early part of that season.

was it the defeat to rafa in hamburg or was it the roland garros loss to rafa or was it that awful loss to safin at wimbledon?

i reckon his losses to rafa at hamburg, roland garros, queens and loss to safin was the turning point.

A_Skywalker
08-21-2010, 12:30 AM
you know the short fat guy, his "coach" .Who isn't tired of watching this guy at every match and who isn't tired of watching Nole lose badly? I mean he should have changed the coach 2 years when the problems were apparent but he is stubbornly sticking with it and he is sinking like a quicksand

Does this guy help him with his serve?
Does he help him with the conditiong and allergies ?
Does he give him nutritional advice?
Does he help him with motivation?

It's probably better if he were alone instead of such a company but he is wasting his career , no slam finals in over 2 years, only 1 masters in last 2 years but so many pathetic losses where he just gave up.

I didnt know coaches need to be doctors too.

Obviously this man has helped him to become what he is and he sticks to him, which is good, without him Djokovic maybe wouldnt have been this player. I do not believe this is only coach's fault, Djokovic must be doing something wrong too, or maybe he doesnt have motivation.

samanosuke
08-21-2010, 12:33 AM
I think somebody is nervous...:haha:

coonster14
08-21-2010, 01:15 AM
can we pinpoint nole's turning point in 2008 after his amazing run during the early part of that season.

was it the defeat to rafa in hamburg or was it the roland garros loss to rafa or was it that awful loss to safin at wimbledon?

i reckon his losses to rafa at hamburg, roland garros, queens and loss to safin was the turning point.

I think the turning point was firstly the loss at Hamburg 2008 SF to Rafa (the first battle for the #2 ranking), I doubt RG would have had much of an impact on him (no way is Nole beating Rafa over best of 5 sets, he does not have the stamina nor mentality to pull out a win).

The loss at the Queens final surely had an effect on Nole, it was a fast court, so a lot of people would have picked Nole to prevail over Rafa, I know that I did.

There is a pattern with both the Hamburg SF and Queens F matches, Nole was up 3-0 in the 1st set in both matches, had chances to get the double break for a 4-0 lead, but just could not pull through, and Rafa was too tough for Nole to handle.

Other matches I would like to mention are losing in the second round in Wimbledon 2008 to Safin no doubt knocked his big ego at the time down a few notches, at that time, he had made 5 consecutive grand slam SF, and was expected by many to get to the SF to face Federer.

Also, losing to Rafa at the Olympics SF had a huge effect on him, Nole so badly wanted the gold medal, the fact is that Rafa beat Nole at his own game on a fast HC (Nole's best surface), which had to shatter Nole's confidence even more.

And the US Open incident with Roddick, we all know what happened after that, Nole has become soft, he is passive and I do not feel that his game has improved in any way at all, if anything, his game has regressed, his forehand sucks these days, and his serve is nothing compared to what it used to be...oh Nole :o

Lets just say Rafa has played a HUGE part for Nole's loss of confidence, Nole is simply unable to beat Rafa in the big matches (countless matches on clay in 2009, Olympics SF, Hamburg SF for #2 ranking, Queens F where Nole was favourite to win).

GugaF1
08-21-2010, 06:53 AM
Sorry to break to you but Novak is a great player but not an outstanding talented one to the likes of Federer or Nadal level or any other outstanding multi slam champion for that matter. I would even put Nalbandian as slightly more talented and he hasn`t won a GS slam yet.

Djokovic is a great top player, he has a very well rounded consistent game, great FH a solid and steady backhand a nice serve and descent volley skills and mental. Having said that he doesn`t possess anything outstanding in his arsenal neither technically or mentally. When he gets hot mentally he can have great results, I remeber I think just last year where he was one of the players that most pushed Nadal on clay specially that endless final in Hamburg I belive, which could have lead to Nadal eventual tireness, physycal issues and loss to Soderling. Slam finals, I am not sure how many MS 1000 he has one but I think a few...etc..

But in the end is just that. Djokovic is a great top player, but he will not beat a Federer playing really well on any surface nor Nadal for that matter maybe aside from fast HC. He is also the type of player that can lose to several other good top players on any given day. So is just that, he is quite similar to Andy Murray, having achivied more than him yet as far as GS and on clay as well. I think as a Nole fan you can`t complain too much, I think he could problably achievied maybe another slam and a few MS 100, but either way he is career is going just fine in accordance to his game. Specially when you consider that guys like Nalbandian, Haas, Murray that has won as big yet....

I also think he is similar to Delpo in the sense that the Argentine won it big and young, but he doesn`t really have that talent or expectations of winnning GS left and right. And I think most people would not be surprised if he won just that US open, for example. Given that he is great top player,but not also an outstanding player technically or mentally.

cocrcici
08-22-2010, 04:09 PM
Nole lost his cockiness and along with it went his confidence, the Djoker of 2008 played a thousand times better than this washed-up version that hasn't even won a MS since Paris-Tankcy last year

Two Words ...MIND CONTROL!:sobbing:

Sophocles
08-22-2010, 04:34 PM
Wasn't it Todd Martin who fucked up his serve?

emotion
08-22-2010, 04:38 PM
so what ? all doctors claim that there is no cure for anything, that's how they stay in business. Quick search will tell you that asthma is related to Magnesium deficiency (http://www.ctds.info/5_13_magnesium.html#magnesium_asthma) and probably to some amino acid inbalance or deficiency

Ummm no... look, I'm sure he has tried stuff. I doubt he is like, "Well, that's that career done, isn't it?"

Action Jackson
08-22-2010, 04:39 PM
Wasn't it Todd Martin who fucked up his serve?

Yes.

Sophocles
08-22-2010, 04:42 PM
Yes.

Thought so. One of the worst coaching screw-ups of all time. Did the same thing happen to Coria?

Start da Game
08-22-2010, 04:46 PM
two things.......

1. change the racket back to wilson and
2. hire a fulltime doctor to travel with him and find a solution to his stamina worries......he no more seems to be able to play winning tennis when playing under sun.......

HKz
08-22-2010, 04:57 PM
Well the motivation from the player's box is sometimes depressing, but he is a good coach, you can't deny it. Novak hasn't been playing bad tennis. I think he has been legitimately unlucky at some stages, but I mean QF at the Australian Open, QF at the French Open, and SF at Wimbledon are not poor results now. The fact that he should of won both his QF matches means he is still doing something right, but maybe mentally he should change a little bit, and that only comes with winning matches, patience and time.

Maybe Novak should get his parents back in the box to behave rudely towards his opponents? :confused: Or maybe he should go back to being a big joker like he was in 2007? I might sound silly, but seriously, if you feel like you used to play tennis better in the past, wouldn't you try to emulate some of the factors that were involved previously? It wouldn't hurt. I mean him being such a joker or have his parents being rude in the box could have relaxed him as a player and allowed him to hit more freely.

gulzhan
08-22-2010, 05:08 PM
I like Vajda a lot.

Everko
08-22-2010, 05:31 PM
As some said before, he needs to get his arrogance/cockiness back.

I agree with this. Early when he got into top 5 Federer used to dislike playing him and always had fits of trouble. But then for some reason Novak decided he wanted to be more loved by Federer and Rafa. Not a good decision for his career. He used to be very intimidating to everyone, even the top guys.

Start da Game
08-22-2010, 06:27 PM
I agree with this. Early when he got into top 5 Federer used to dislike playing him and always had fits of trouble. But then for some reason Novak decided he wanted to be more loved by Federer and Rafa. Not a good decision for his career. He used to be very intimidating to everyone, even the top guys.

i think he just lacks confidence these days.......he was just immature when he was young.......stamina worries are also adding up to the miseries.......when was the last time he beat a big player playing under the afternoon sun?

changing the racket back to wilson should be his first step......had enough with this head racket which doesn't seem to give him the right stroke dynamics......look at his forehand, awful......changing the coach wouldn't be a good decision because the problem is not with the coach.......

Vida
08-22-2010, 06:28 PM
unfortunate mr djokovic. most likely he has a condition, an inability to perform in certain conditions, like heat, moist... did it happen out of a blue sky, or did it pan out somehow, is hard to say.

Start da Game
08-22-2010, 06:37 PM
that's right, he definitely has a condition.......i have been watching this guy since 2006 and he gets exhausted quickly in heat......he even threw night matches to players like santoro in 2007 out of exhaustion.......since 2009 his resistance to heat started declining rapidly and he can hardly win a tennis match these days when playing on a hot sunny day.......

i posted some 3 months ago that his game has taken a hit mainly due to this reason and i still stand by it.......when you know that you cannot survive even for 3 sets in sun, how can you even think of winning 7 matches in a slam?

second thing is the racket.......this present head racket just keeps giving more headaches.......i don't know if there's something wrong with the strings but he keeps jabbing at those forehands.......has no control on that shot these days for some reason.......

Vida
08-22-2010, 06:48 PM
that part looks to me to be more mental, cause we've seen him play excellent tennis mostly last year. also he still plays on an averagely high level given he is/was no 2. maybe it a bit harder to get in the groove with this head racket, but look how he went out of slams, in a more or less listless endings drained in the sun..

to me it looks that condition is triggered both mentally and due to conditions. I wouldnt bet he has it alone in tennis, let alone all of sports. also it appears it can be controlled to a level.

So a change in environment would be good, with Vajda going on leave and importing some high profile coach who could handle novaks case.

scarecrows
08-22-2010, 06:55 PM
he also needs to open a new facebook account

Vida
08-22-2010, 06:57 PM
exactly. maybe hes been trying to but doesnt know how.

Nole fan
08-22-2010, 10:12 PM
And the US Open incident with Roddick, we all know what happened after that, Nole has become soft, he is passive and I do not feel that his game has improved in any way at all, if anything, his game has regressed, his forehand sucks these days, and his serve is nothing compared to what it used to be...oh Nole :o

For me this was the real turning point in his career. Somehow after this incident he lost some joy in the game and with it his attitude and determination. It was a very nasty incident which I hate Roddick for and one of the lowest moments in Nole's career. He completely changed his behavior and attitude after that. He went "soft".

brent-o
08-23-2010, 12:13 AM
Sorry to break to you but Novak is a great player but not an outstanding talented one to the likes of Federer or Nadal level or any other outstanding multi slam champion for that matter. I would even put Nalbandian as slightly more talented and he hasn`t won a GS slam yet.

Djokovic is a great top player, he has a very well rounded consistent game, great FH a solid and steady backhand a nice serve and descent volley skills and mental. Having said that he doesn`t possess anything outstanding in his arsenal neither technically or mentally. When he gets hot mentally he can have great results, I remeber I think just last year where he was one of the players that most pushed Nadal on clay specially that endless final in Hamburg I belive, which could have lead to Nadal eventual tireness, physycal issues and loss to Soderling. Slam finals, I am not sure how many MS 1000 he has one but I think a few...etc..

But in the end is just that. Djokovic is a great top player, but he will not beat a Federer playing really well on any surface nor Nadal for that matter maybe aside from fast HC. He is also the type of player that can lose to several other good top players on any given day. So is just that, he is quite similar to Andy Murray, having achivied more than him yet as far as GS and on clay as well. I think as a Nole fan you can`t complain too much, I think he could problably achievied maybe another slam and a few MS 100, but either way he is career is going just fine in accordance to his game. Specially when you consider that guys like Nalbandian, Haas, Murray that has won as big yet....

I also think he is similar to Delpo in the sense that the Argentine won it big and young, but he doesn`t really have that talent or expectations of winnning GS left and right. And I think most people would not be surprised if he won just that US open, for example. Given that he is great top player,but not also an outstanding player technically or mentally.

Awesome write-up, but I think you're wrong about his talent level. As for Nalbandian being ahead of him in that department, I'll still give you that. Not only is Nalbandian naturally talented, but he has a really great tactical mind which is a whole different type of talent in and of itself. But when Nole was really at his best (in the days of the Big Three/Four), his elasticity and flexibility made him one of the best shot-makers on tour. Federer, Nadal, and Nole had probably the most consistent passing shots on tour, and that's no coincidence because they are all flexible and athletic enough to hit any shot from any position. Even looking at the tour now, and how much the game has evolved, there are very few players (maybe Monfils) with Nole's athletic talents.

No, I think where Djokovic went wrong was entirely mental. As others have said, when he lost that youthful cockiness, that fearless shotmaking, and began to mature, his game has suffered for it.

Serenidad
08-23-2010, 12:57 AM
Djokovic needs some development on the volley and the slice.

From the groundstrokes he is fine when he is playing well, but all of the top contenders can play groundstrokes. It is just not enough.

tennis2tennis
08-23-2010, 03:11 AM
that's right, he definitely has a condition.......i have been watching this guy since 2006 and he gets exhausted quickly in heat......he even threw night matches to players like santoro in 2007 out of exhaustion.......since 2009 his resistance to heat started declining rapidly and he can hardly win a tennis match these days when playing on a hot sunny day.......

i posted some 3 months ago that his game has taken a hit mainly due to this reason and i still stand by it.......when you know that you cannot survive even for 3 sets in sun, how can you even think of winning 7 matches in a slam?

second thing is the racket.......this present head racket just keeps giving more headaches.......i don't know if there's something wrong with the strings but he keeps jabbing at those forehands.......has no control on that shot these days for some reason.......

two words.... Pierre Paganini

BigJohn
08-23-2010, 03:59 AM
For me this was the real turning point in his career. Somehow after this incident he lost some joy in the game and with it his attitude and determination. It was a very nasty incident which I hate Roddick for and one of the lowest moments in Nole's career. He completely changed his behavior and attitude after that. He went "soft".

Two difficult things happened then: dealing with the crowds and, well, he lost to Federer. The crowds got him angry and hurt that is for sure, and the loss to Federer did made him doubt.

He had a "Is it possible people do not love me as much as I think they love me / Am I as good as I think I am?" moment.

I don't like the guy, but seeing him stalled like this for so long is kind of sad. He's better than this. But to bring back the cockiness could also turn the crowd against him some more. Would Djokovic be happier winning more but less popular with the crowd?

HKz
08-23-2010, 04:16 AM
Two difficult things happened then: dealing with the crowds and, well, he lost to Federer. The crowds got him angry and hurt that is for sure, and the loss to Federer did made him doubt.

He had a "Is it possible people do not love me as much as I think they love me / Am I as good as I think I am?" moment.

I don't like the guy, but seeing him stalled like this for so long is kind of sad. He's better than this. But to bring back the cockiness could also turn the crowd against him some more. Would Djokovic be happier winning more but less popular with the crowd?

I don't think that incident in 2008 was the breaking point because he played some solid tennis even afterwards, most notably winning the TMC.

Either way, I think he somehow got really uptight especially after winning AO 2008.. He wasn't the same joking Novak we all knew in 2007, and I think him trying to be a "serious/mature champion" has made him put extra pressure on himself and now he doesn't swing and play as freely as he did in 2007.

Yes he played extremely well in Australia when he won it, but I think for an overall consistent year, he should go back to how he was in 2007 mentally. Or then again, he doesn't have to change because despite what most say, Novak's performance in 2009 and so far here in 2010 is still very good. Unless 4 GS QF appearances, 2 GS SF appearances at the slams, 4 MS SF appearances, 4 MS F appearances, and 1 MS win isn't good enough, then I don't know what is. We can't except Nadal-like, let alone Federer-like, consistency.

You can argue that he has lost some bite on his groundstrokes/serves or that using Head has screwed him over, but who knows whether he needs to revamp his whole game, just get some big matches under his belt, or just adjust slightly, because he is clearly still in the top 4 for a reason.

BigJohn
08-23-2010, 04:25 AM
I don't think that incident in 2008 was the breaking point because he played some solid tennis even afterwards, most notably winning the TMC.

Either way, I think he somehow got really uptight especially after winning AO 2008.. He wasn't the same joking Novak we all knew in 2007, and I think him trying to be a "serious/mature champion" has made him put extra pressure on himself and now he doesn't swing and play as freely as he did in 2007.

Yes he played extremely well in Australia when he won it, but I think for an overall consistent year, he should go back to how he was in 2007 mentally. Or then again, he doesn't have to change because despite what most say, Novak's performance in 2009 and so far here in 2010 is still very good. Unless 4 GS QF appearances, 2 GS SF appearances at the slams, 4 MS SF appearances, 4 MS F appearances, and 1 MS win isn't good enough, then I don't know what is. We can't except Nadal-like, let alone Federer-like, consistency.

You can argue that he has lost some bite on his groundstrokes/serves or that using Head has screwed him over, but who knows whether he needs to revamp his whole game, just get some big matches under his belt, or just adjust slightly, because he is clearly still in the top 4 for a reason.

2008 was supposed to be his party, after all, he had arrived at the AO: it's my turn now, and the USO was the party pooper. I'm not sure if he did not expect at least Nadal-like consistency at that time. He was pretty cocky.

pica_pica
08-23-2010, 06:38 AM
Hiring Todd Martin was wrong because he's trying to change Nole's tennis TECHNICALLY. Nole can consider hiring some psychological/mental help instead. There is something negative and worrying in his competitive mindset.

Puschkin
08-23-2010, 08:28 AM
Novak is a public figure in Serbia, in a way "an ambassador" for the country, but getting much more attention than the classic diplomats. All the Serbs I met in Vienna, from student to taxi-driver, not only knew him, but offered views on his family, his restaurant, the Belgrade tourney, etc....what he did right and what he did wrong.

Serbia as a whole works hard on an image change and Novak can't escape that task, as he is a Serbian face to the world. That is a responsibiity which hardly any other player has to shoulder.

I feel he doesn't shy away from that role, but it explains a lot: cockyness is not on the agenda anymore. Besides, I do think that he is a crowd-pleaser by nature, I have seen him friendly with fans even when the cameras were off more than once.

yellowboy906
08-23-2010, 09:49 AM
Sorry to break to you but Novak is a great player but not an outstanding talented one to the likes of Federer or Nadal level or any other outstanding multi slam champion for that matter. I would even put Nalbandian as slightly more talented and he hasn`t won a GS slam yet.

Djokovic is a great top player, he has a very well rounded consistent game, great FH a solid and steady backhand a nice serve and descent volley skills and mental. Having said that he doesn`t possess anything outstanding in his arsenal neither technically or mentally. When he gets hot mentally he can have great results, I remeber I think just last year where he was one of the players that most pushed Nadal on clay specially that endless final in Hamburg I belive, which could have lead to Nadal eventual tireness, physycal issues and loss to Soderling. Slam finals, I am not sure how many MS 1000 he has one but I think a few...etc..

But in the end is just that. Djokovic is a great top player, but he will not beat a Federer playing really well on any surface nor Nadal for that matter maybe aside from fast HC. He is also the type of player that can lose to several other good top players on any given day. So is just that, he is quite similar to Andy Murray, having achivied more than him yet as far as GS and on clay as well. I think as a Nole fan you can`t complain too much, I think he could problably achievied maybe another slam and a few MS 100, but either way he is career is going just fine in accordance to his game. Specially when you consider that guys like Nalbandian, Haas, Murray that has won as big yet....

I also think he is similar to Delpo in the sense that the Argentine won it big and young, but he doesn`t really have that talent or expectations of winnning GS left and right. And I think most people would not be surprised if he won just that US open, for example. Given that he is great top player,but not also an outstanding player technically or mentally.
who can beat federer on any surface when he's playing well other than nadal on clay? go fuc*k yourself:mad:

Nole fan
08-23-2010, 12:15 PM
I don't think that incident in 2008 was the breaking point because he played some solid tennis even afterwards, most notably winning the TMC.

Either way, I think he somehow got really uptight especially after winning AO 2008.. He wasn't the same joking Novak we all knew in 2007, and I think him trying to be a "serious/mature champion" has made him put extra pressure on himself and now he doesn't swing and play as freely as he did in 2007.

Yes he played extremely well in Australia when he won it, but I think for an overall consistent year, he should go back to how he was in 2007 mentally. Or then again, he doesn't have to change because despite what most say, Novak's performance in 2009 and so far here in 2010 is still very good. Unless 4 GS QF appearances, 2 GS SF appearances at the slams, 4 MS SF appearances, 4 MS F appearances, and 1 MS win isn't good enough, then I don't know what is. We can't except Nadal-like, let alone Federer-like, consistency.

You can argue that he has lost some bite on his groundstrokes/serves or that using Head has screwed him over, but who knows whether he needs to revamp his whole game, just get some big matches under his belt, or just adjust slightly, because he is clearly still in the top 4 for a reason.

Insightful post, I agree with most of it.
I also don't think his problem is "talent". He has that in abundance, whether his haters want to admit it or not. I don't think it's debatable. So the problem lies elsewhere. Most people think it's mental, me included. He also has the hindrance of stamina problems, breathing and heat-related issues. But most of it is mental. Against some rivals like Federer or Roddick he plays too nervous and self-conscious. He can beat those guys and everyone else when he's on but sometimes he puts a mental barrier. Specially when he's in a semifinal or final. That's the reason he doesn't pass from QF these days. He gets there and then he is mentally blocked for some reason. If he had played at his level against Meltzer in RG, Berdych in Wimbledon, Federer in Toronto and Roddick in Cinci, he would have won those matches. They were all close matches already but he played abysmal at times. While before he had been clinical. It's like he has a fear of getting to the final stages of tournaments. It's called fear of failure. He plays with fear and that is hurting his game big.

cocrcici
08-23-2010, 12:41 PM
who can beat federer on any surface when he's playing well other than nadal on clay? go fuc*k yourself:mad:

http://i32.tinypic.com/300gv9u.jpg

Li Ching Yuen
08-23-2010, 12:45 PM
He just needs to learn how to serve, that's all.

Persimmon
08-23-2010, 03:57 PM
2008 was supposed to be his party, after all, he had arrived at the AO: it's my turn now, and the USO was the party pooper. I'm not sure if he did not expect at least Nadal-like consistency at that time. He was pretty cocky.

Exactly.

Dougie
08-23-2010, 04:40 PM
He just needs to learn how to serve, that's all.

His serve is a problem, thatīs for sure. But my guess is thatīs only a reflection of the real issue, which is mental. His service motion is horrible nowadays, and Iīm sure Martin had something to do with it, but his problems go way deeper than that.

As others have said, he seems too nice nowadays, his results were better when he was hated and cocky. Nowadays he seems like a nice guy with a harmless game. Itīs like his aggression and weapons dissapeared with his arrogance. Something needs to change quick if he wants to win another GS.

Filo V.
08-23-2010, 06:24 PM
Nole isn't in the position to make radical changes in his life right now. What he needs is some stability and some confidence, and obviously he feels comfortable with Vajda and that whole team. He brought in Martin which ended up actually being a disaster. What Nole needs is support and people who will tell him the things he wants to hear and people who he knows will be there when he's struggling, and that's what Vajda and that whole group brings. When he's more confident and in a more secure situation in his career and mentality, then he should look to make changes.

Li Ching Yuen
08-23-2010, 06:29 PM
His serve is a problem, thatīs for sure. But my guess is thatīs only a reflection of the real issue, which is mental. His service motion is horrible nowadays, and Iīm sure Martin had something to do with it, but his problems go way deeper than that.

As others have said, he seems too nice nowadays, his results were better when he was hated and cocky. Nowadays he seems like a nice guy with a harmless game. Itīs like his aggression and weapons dissapeared with his arrogance. Something needs to change quick if he wants to win another GS.

Actually, if you really think about maybe it's his lack of dedication. He's been having serving issues for so long. You'd think he'd improve on it or at least show some signs of improvement but things seem to be stagnating for him. Maybe a new coach, maybe a break, he needs something and quick. He can continue on and scraping wins, left and right. With his talent he can easily keep up a good ranking, probably Top 5, since at this point in time the Top 10 is kind of out of it but this will be detrimental for his career in the long run.

r2473
08-23-2010, 06:39 PM
Nole should retire for his fans.

I think we need a new thread :)

munZe konZa
08-25-2010, 08:54 AM
His serve is a problem, thatīs for sure. But my guess is thatīs only a reflection of the real issue, which is mental. His service motion is horrible nowadays, and Iīm sure Martin had something to do with it, but his problems go way deeper than that.

it makes no sense to blame Martin for the serve now since he is long gone. Look at his serve now, he puts too much effort because he can't relax . Not being able to relax is related strictly to mineral deficiency which is the reason why he looks sluggish after a match gets tight, minerals get sweatted out during the match. He just can't relax and gets tired because of it.

As others have said, he seems too nice nowadays, his results were better when he was hated and cocky. Nowadays he seems like a nice guy with a harmless game. Itīs like his aggression and weapons dissapeared with his arrogance. Something needs to change quick if he wants to win another GS.

this is very simple and true, his game is not taken seriously anymore even though he is putting more effort into it than ever. At the same time , he wants to appear like it's all normal and good because he doesn't know what is wrong. He needs someone to tell him the facts and he needs someone that he listens and respects at this point, and that is not the small fat guy at his every match. He still has the game and athleticism but doesn't have the physical and mental part but this can only be brought out if he has the correct introspection of himself or if someone that he respects tells him that.

Mechlan
08-25-2010, 09:00 AM
I have no idea how much effort he puts into his training, but it seems like he's had physical problems for the past few years and really made no improvement. Now I'm not sure if it's a medical issue or not, but I can't help but think that he could be better than he is right now. If I was his coach, I would focus his training on that and maybe learning to be more aggressive with his shots. He's capable of doing it, but lacks confidence right now.

Action Jackson
10-07-2011, 02:57 AM
He just needs to learn how to serve, that's all.

Well Vajda fixed that up and his forehand got better. Even funnier the OP still thinks Vajda should be sacked.

How times change.

shiaben
10-07-2011, 03:40 AM
I don't see any problems coming out of his coach.

Unless you can specifically point out somewhere or somehow, where the Slovak made a commented about Djokovic's technique that harmed his game and hindered his performance.

Start da Game
10-07-2011, 08:16 AM
2011 is the greatest season ever by a singles player, no matter what anyone says......the greatest player ever himself said that to justin gimelstob recently......

however, djokovic is no nadal when it comes to physical stamina and longevity......he needs to find a way to end points quickly......he won most of his matches against the top players this year with his shotmaking alright but his speed and endurance did play a big part too, and it's not possible to continue playing like that for long......

here's what he needs to do going into 2012,

1. improve his serve - it's still not as good as what people think
2. improve his transition game - to finish his service games quicker, there's no point in staying back when you have put in a good serve and blasted the first forehand
3. improve the slice - it will come in handy

that's all he needs......the rest of his game is fine....

Time Violation
10-07-2011, 08:31 AM
Well Vajda fixed that up and his forehand got better. Even funnier the OP still thinks Vajda should be sacked.

That's why OP isn't a tennis coach ;)

Sham Kay
10-07-2011, 11:03 AM
yes of course it is because he is at his every match literally . You would think he would do something with him with all that time but no , Nole just gets the same or worse

All Novak miss is his old game, flat strokes, flat and strong serve. But considering Novak haven't even tried to return to that hitting for 2 years now, I'm quite pessimistic about his future.
I applaud some of these Nole fans. Their belief in their man never wavered.. :p

Time Violation
10-07-2011, 11:27 AM
I applaud some of these Nole fans. Their belief in their man never wavered.. :p

Well, if you knew Serbian, you would know that the first one's username is screaming "I'm a chav", so no big surprise :p

Super Djoker
10-07-2011, 12:43 PM
Vajda was never the problem ! Todd Martin Was! That serve tweak was awful! He won the Aussie Open in 2008 with Vajda! I hope Nole comes back Fully fit in Basel!

Vida
10-07-2011, 12:54 PM
very lucky from novak to have met vajda in the first place.

janko05
10-08-2011, 03:47 AM
when the arrogant 2008 djokovic returns, then he will start winning.

two things.......

1. change the racket back to wilson and
2. hire a fulltime doctor to travel with him and find a solution to his stamina worries......he no more seems to be able to play winning tennis when playing under sun.......

nice reasoning back then :hatoff:

Nole fan
10-08-2011, 01:05 PM
2011 is the greatest season ever by a singles player, no matter what anyone says......the greatest player ever himself said that to justin gimelstob recently......

however, djokovic is no nadal when it comes to physical stamina and longevity......he needs to find a way to end points quickly......he won most of his matches against the top players this year with his shotmaking alright but his speed and endurance did play a big part too, and it's not possible to continue playing like that for long......

here's what he needs to do going into 2012,

1. improve his serve - it's still not as good as what people think
2. improve his transition game - to finish his service games quicker, there's no point in staying back when you have put in a good serve and blasted the first forehand
3. improve the slice - it will come in handy

that's all he needs......the rest of his game is fine....

Well, I agree Shankar. His serve is still nowehere near the top and clearly his motion doesn't look effortless, that's why he usually has shoulder problems. But his game is what it is, I don't think he can start attacking more at the net, his baseline game is the best out there and his shotmaking ability is awesome, he doesn't need to do anything else. He won't end points shorter but he has the stamina and power to play like that for many years, he's never been gravely injured. He's a super athlete, maybe the best the sport has seen.

BodyServe
10-08-2011, 01:56 PM
Well, I agree Shankar. His serve is still nowehere near the top and clearly his motion doesn't look effortless, that's why he usually has shoulder problems. But his game is what it is, I don't think he can start attacking more at the net, his baseline game is the best out there and his shotmaking ability is awesome, he doesn't need to do anything else. He won't end points shorter but he has the stamina and power to play like that for many years, he's never been gravely injured. He's a super athlete, maybe the best the sport has seen.

Don't think so, there are other sports with much much better athletes.
Tennis is first an foremost a technical sport so don't expect to have "great" athletes here.

Start da Game
10-08-2011, 02:07 PM
Well, I agree Shankar. His serve is still nowehere near the top and clearly his motion doesn't look effortless, that's why he usually has shoulder problems. But his game is what it is, I don't think he can start attacking more at the net, his baseline game is the best out there and his shotmaking ability is awesome, he doesn't need to do anything else. He won't end points shorter but he has the stamina and power to play like that for many years, he's never been gravely injured. He's a super athlete, maybe the best the sport has seen.

yes he's good but it's also taking a lot out of him......maybe you are right too, as long as he can keep himself fit, he can persist with this present game of his......

Hypnotize
10-08-2011, 02:07 PM
Don't think so, there are other sports with much much better athletes.
Tennis is first an foremost a technical sport so don't expect to have "great" athletes here.
I couldn't disagree more. The athleticism of the top tennis players is phenomenal these days and I don't think there is another sport that is more demanding than tennis.

Novak, Nadal and Roger are not just great tennis players, they are amazing athletes as well.

Start da Game
10-08-2011, 02:09 PM
nice reasoning back then :hatoff:

he's certainly overcome the stamina issues significantly......good for the game that he is now capable of competing with the very best players for 4 to 5 hours in a best of 5 sets tennis match......

ZaZoo)
10-08-2011, 02:17 PM
I applaud some of these Nole fans. Their belief in their man never wavered.. :p

Well, it's not like last year wasn't the worst season Nole played.. His serve, FH were abysmal at best.. remember Dubai 2010 for example? :tape:

He mostly improved mentally and his FH is a bit flatter too.

Now, I think serve still needs be much more efficient and fluent, like back in 2007/08.

janko05
10-08-2011, 02:28 PM
Well, it's not like last year wasn't the worst season Nole played.. His serve, FH were abysmal at best.. remember Dubai 2010 for example? :tape:

He mostly improved mentally and his FH is a bit flatter too.

Now, I think serve still needs be much more efficient and fluent, like back in 2007/08.

agree. if he manages some of his service techniques from that period with todays stamina and attitude he will cruise

xdrewitdajx
10-08-2011, 04:12 PM
Don't think so, there are other sports with much much better athletes.
Tennis is first an foremost a technical sport so don't expect to have "great" athletes here.

"the best the sport has seen" means "the best tennis has seen", not sports in general.
Obviously, it's a pretty bold statement to make, one that I don't think can possibly be true...but just wanted to point out that you misunderstood

Saberq
10-08-2011, 04:29 PM
he's certainly overcome the stamina issues significantly......good for the game that he is now capable of competing with the very best players for 4 to 5 hours in a best of 5 sets tennis match......

he is not just capable he is the best in the world stamina wise

Egreen
10-08-2011, 05:30 PM
he is not just capable he is the best in the world stamina wise
Ditto.

tripwires
03-01-2012, 03:19 AM
I'd like to know if the OP (munZe konZa) still thinks that Nole wasted his career with Vajda in light of Nole's recent achievements?

Serious discussions only please.

Smoke944
03-01-2012, 03:26 AM
I'd like to know if the OP (munZe konZa) still thinks that Nole wasted his career with Vajda in light of Nole's recent achievements?

Serious discussions only please.

Of course. Nole could do so much better if he had a decent coach :sad:

Action Jackson
03-01-2012, 03:34 AM
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g239/GeorgeWH/Mari.jpg

fast_clay
03-01-2012, 03:35 AM
I'd like to know if the OP (munZe konZa) still thinks that Nole wasted his career with Vajda in light of Nole's recent achievements?

Serious discussions only please.

MunZe KonZa only posts when the nurses give him his internet rights back... which is usually when he complies and takes his Xanax at the prescribed time just before lights out at the home... sometimes he is a good lad and posts a lot, so hopefully he posts soon because i too would be interested to know...

tripwires
03-01-2012, 03:53 AM
I see. Yeah, I kind of do hold the view that Vajda has been holding Nole back. In this regard I would have to state my agreement with AJ and Smoke944. Shame on Vajda. He's clearly the reason Nole isn't GOAT by now.

I wonder what munZe konZa thinks of all this. I can't wait till he gets his Internet rights back and enlightens us all on this issue. I will be on pins and needles until then.

Best regards,
Trip

Start da Game
03-01-2012, 04:01 AM
he is not just capable he is the best in the world stamina wise

he certainly competed for 11 hours in his last two matches but nadal too competed for 10 hours and still looked strong to last another hour or so.....i think it's still debatable who is stronger at the moment.....

a test which settles that debate is a 7 hour match between the two in the afternoon sun at roland garros.....i don't think djokovic can last for 7 hours in the sun on clay.....

acionescu
03-01-2012, 06:51 AM
And if that doesnt work either, maybe a triathlon followed by a fishing contest would do.... :yeah:

Time Violation
03-01-2012, 06:56 AM
I wonder what munZe konZa thinks of all this. I can't wait till he gets his Internet rights back and enlightens us all on this issue. I will be on pins and needles until then.

You should've sent him a pm :p

munZe konZa
03-01-2012, 07:01 AM
Considering that all the anti Nole people support Vajda , then yes I absolutelly stand by it.
Maybe Nole is winning despite of him but hey who knows?
Of course I knew how good he was but most of these people said the results in 2009-2010 were acceptable so they were hoping for that to continue.

Start da Game
03-01-2012, 03:45 PM
Considering that all the anti Nole people support Vajda , then yes I absolutelly stand by it.
Maybe Nole is winning despite of him but hey who knows?
Of course I knew how good he was but most of these people said the results in 2009-2010 were acceptable so they were hoping for that to continue.

i think you were right all along.....it's djokovic's greatness that he got back on track again.....no good coach allows his player to decline so much.....even now djokovic is mainly winning because of his supremely improved stamina.....rest of the things like restoration of serve, forehand and stuff are just byproducts of the confidence derived from his supremely improved physical condition......

i said the exact same thing way back in 2009.....somebody can dig that "is djokovic getting back on track?" thread and see what i had to say about him......i opened another thread in 2010 and declared that djokovic and d pot are going to be nadal's real rivals, time when djokovic was still being owned by nadal.....

i am not dismissing vaidja's part in his success but he is not the main reason for djoko's success.....i would in fact attribute this success more to djokovic's doctors who protected him from getting further weak.....

BroTree123
03-01-2012, 04:10 PM
Well...this thread has gone to shit :lol:.

Voo de Mar
03-01-2012, 04:26 PM
Vajda participated in the first Challenger match I witnessed (final in Hague '90 with Jarryd) so I've got a sentiment to this guy, one of the first players I saw in my life.

Singularity
03-01-2012, 07:27 PM
i said the exact same thing way back in 2009.....somebody can dig that "is djokovic getting back on track?" thread and see what i had to say about him......i opened another thread in 2010 and declared that djokovic and d pot are going to be nadal's real rivals, time when djokovic was still being owned by nadal.....
This is what you actually said:

Gulbismal couldn't even beat a sick nadal yesterday on a fast hardcourt........what can he do to a fresh and fit nadal?

kuan martin wrist potro has to be observed for a while after he returns to the tour.......cannot be sure of him either........djokovic is no more the djoker of 2007, 2008.......he's just the "dark knight of tennis" meaning he can play well only in the evenings and nights.......who else left? murray - not enough heaviness........federina - just forget it.......

if i am still asked to pick someone i will go for kuan martin once he returns........do you think the same?

http://www.menstennisforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=10652465

Seems that by rivals you meant 'might be able to score a few victories here and there'.

tripwires
03-02-2012, 10:56 AM
This is what you actually said:



http://www.menstennisforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=10652465

Seems that by rivals you meant 'might be able to score a few victories here and there'.

:superlol: Pwnage. :hearts:

Action Jackson
03-02-2012, 10:59 AM
This is what you actually said:



http://www.menstennisforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=10652465

Seems that by rivals you meant 'might be able to score a few victories here and there'.

1-0 Singularity.

Alex999
03-02-2012, 11:19 AM
lol, funny thread. Nole tends to be very loyal to his close friends, his trainer, etc. I think that once he build a relationship he can't really let go. I really believe that Vajda has been a very positive influence when it comes to Nole.... but there is only so much that a trainer can do for a player. still think it's a good thing that they have stayed with one another for so long

Time Violation
03-02-2012, 11:20 AM
http://www.menstennisforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=10652465

Seems that by rivals you meant 'might be able to score a few victories here and there'.


http://yourstudentlife.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/shipment_of_fail.jpg

SERBINATOR
03-02-2012, 11:29 AM
This is what you actually said:



http://www.menstennisforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=10652465

Seems that by rivals you meant 'might be able to score a few victories here and there'.



Start d Fail(ed)

Start da Game
03-02-2012, 11:34 AM
:superlol: Pwnage. :hearts:

1-0 Singularity.

bullshit.....he blindly dug up the wrong thread even though i have clearly mentioned the title of the thread is "is djokovic getting back on track".....

and even in that thread quoted above, why do you think i had only djokovic and del potro as the main options? because i knew they are the only ones that can handle nadal trouble.....

Start da Game
03-02-2012, 11:36 AM
This is what you actually said:



http://www.menstennisforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=10652465

Seems that by rivals you meant 'might be able to score a few victories here and there'.

you must be blind.....i was talking about the 2009 thread and you dug up a 2010 one even in which i had djokovic and del potro as poll options.....

Singularity
03-02-2012, 01:02 PM
you must be blind.....i was talking about the 2009 thread and you dug up a 2010 one even in which i had djokovic and del potro as poll options.....

Post I replied to:


i said the exact same thing way back in 2009.....somebody can dig that "is djokovic getting back on track?" thread and see what i had to say about him......i opened another thread in 2010 and declared that djokovic and d pot are going to be nadal's real rivals, time when djokovic was still being owned by nadal.....


Judge for yourself who is blind.

Start da Game
03-02-2012, 01:12 PM
Post I replied to:



Judge for yourself who is blind.

i asked to open the 2009 thread.....not the 2010 thread.....and so what if i said nadal looks invincible? that was a statement in the heat of things.....

but how conveniently you ignored the poll options.....i remember somebody questioning me harshly for not including anyone other than djokovic and del potro in the poll options and i explained why i felt only those two could challenge.....i thought that much was clear enough but it looks like i overestimated fedtards.....

Singularity
03-02-2012, 06:36 PM
i asked to open the 2009 thread.....not the 2010 thread
You don't think I know that?

You said you'd predicted that Djokovic would rival Nadal, in a 2010 thread. I linked to what you actually said (i.e that Djokovic could give Nadal some problems but was a shadow of his former self).

Now somehow I'm at fault (or "blind" or whatever), because you didn't give me permission to dig up what you said!

.....and so what if i said nadal looks invincible? that was a statement in the heat of things.....
It's convenient that you ignore all the times you get something wrong isn't it? It means you can have a 100% success record.

but how conveniently you ignored the poll options.....i remember somebody questioning me harshly for not including anyone other than djokovic and del potro in the poll options and i explained why i felt only those two could challenge.....i thought that much was clear enough but it looks like i overestimated fedtards.....
You what's funny? That whole thread is a question. Who will challenge Nadal, who will step up to the plate? Nowhere do you actually say Djokovic will do this! All you did was include him in the poll. And in the thread you actually play down his prospects.

So you win both ways. If Djokovic does beat Nadal, you can say you predicted it, and that's why you included him in the poll (though you never made that prediction!). If he doesn't beat Nadal, you can say you knew this all along (Nadal was unstoppable etc.), and he was just the best option at the time you made the thread.

shiaben
03-02-2012, 06:43 PM
Waste his career lol???

Why would he need a more expensive top notch coach?

The guy's game has been going in the right direction and constantly evolving.

I don't care if this guy is a midtier coach or even a really low ranked one, whatever he is doing it is working.

Otherwise Nole would have remained with only 1-2 slams.

Start da Game
03-02-2012, 06:52 PM
You don't think I know that?

You said you'd predicted that Djokovic would rival Nadal, in a 2010 thread. I linked to what you actually said (i.e that Djokovic could give Nadal some problems but was a shadow of his former self).

Now somehow I'm at fault (or "blind" or whatever), because you didn't give me permission to dig up what you said!


It's convenient that you ignore all the times you get something wrong isn't it? It means you can have a 100% success record.


You what's funny? That whole thread is a question. Who will challenge Nadal, who will step up to the plate? Nowhere do you actually say Djokovic will do this! All you did was include him in the poll. And in the thread you actually play down his prospects.

So you win both ways. If Djokovic does beat Nadal, you can say you predicted it, and that's why you included him in the poll (though you never made that prediction!). If he doesn't beat Nadal, you can say you knew this all along (Nadal was unstoppable etc.), and he was just the best option at the time you made the thread.

i knew all along who was going to challenge nadal.....and everybody knows that i knew, though anti nadal elements like you will always refuse to acknowledge me.....go on picking random statements and try proving what you are set out to.....

i made a thread as early as in 2009 about djokovic's potential and how he can get back on track etc. goes to show how much i know.....i identified way back in 2009 that his primary problems were not serve and forehand but was actually his stamina issue which was responsible for massive drop in confidence and subsequent drop in many facets in his game......

i knew it all along and everybody kept ridiculing me......at one point, even djokovic fans kept disagreeing with me saying that he's struggling mostly because of poor serve and poor forehand and his stamina issue wasn't the main reason.....

i know that i dismissed djokovic after nadal won the us open but the fact that i had only djokovic and del potro in that poll goes to show that i was still sticking to my earlier prediction that djokovic was going to challenge nadal.....

i remember clearly saying in several threads back in 2009, 2010 that nadal's biggest rivals in his career were going to be djokovic and del potro......

Singularity
03-02-2012, 10:27 PM
The thing is, saying one player will 'rival' another player, can mean a lot of different things. It can mean that player will be able to beat the other player consistently, or even overtake them. It can mean they'll meet each other frequently in finals or semis, and will be contending for the title. It can mean one player will be able to push the other player really hard, even if they lose most of the time (eg. you believe recent Nadal-Djokovic matches are still part of their 'rivalry').

In this regard, even if Nadal had continued to win hard court slams after USO 10, and beat Djokovic in every or nearly slam final, he could still be Nadal's biggest rival. He would just need to struggle more against Djokovic than other members of the top 4, or other tennis players in general. And that's pretty much always been the case. Federer matches up badly against him, Murray has (or had) serious mental issues in slams, and everyone else on the tour has a lot less consistency.

So sure, I grant that you predicted Djokovic and Del Potro would be most likely to trouble Nadal. But the context was always that Nadal was this unstoppable force, and all he had to do was get fully fit, and have the desire and he could win anything - and everyone else would just be fighting for scraps. It's the whole 'ultimate fighter' mythos that always seemed completely ridiculous to me: as if it doesn't matter how well your opponent plays, because you can just will yourself to win.

i made a thread as early as in 2009 about djokovic's potential and how he can get back on track etc. goes to show how much i know.....i identified way back in 2009 that his primary problems were not serve and forehand but was actually his stamina issue which was responsible for massive drop in confidence and subsequent drop in many facets in his game......
So, since you asked me to, I had a look at the the thread (here: http://www.menstennisforums.com/showthread.php?t=152690). Not once do I see any mention of fitness. You do comment however that his serve has got better and that he needs to improve his forehand!

he is also going for his backhands a bit more.......i think that's the way to play.......however, he is still not hitting his forehand the way he used to hit 15 months ago.......i still see some hesitation and lack of confidence in that wing in clutch situations........he is more confident of his backhand.......

he has to rediscover a few aspects in his game and change his mentality........i never understood why he changed his forehand.......i liked it when he used to take a big swing and go for huge depth.......backhand is lacking the sting too.......he was a better player when he was attacking more.......

This is what you say about his chances vs. Nadal:

the problem for him is nadal......he can blast past anyone but nadal......djoko lost to rafa on all surfaces in slams just like fed.......

there was a time in 2008 when he could have taken his confidence to another level but found nadal in his way time and again......federer was enjoying gutless confrontation in one half while nadal and djokovic were spartaning in the other......
Again, not much of a 'rival'.

Time Violation
03-02-2012, 10:50 PM
The thing is, saying one player will 'rival' another player, can mean a lot of different things. It can mean that player will be able to beat the other player consistently, or even overtake them. It can mean they'll meet each other frequently in finals or semis, and will be contending for the title. It can mean one player will be able to push the other player really hard, even if they lose most of the time (eg. you believe recent Nadal-Djokovic matches are still part of their 'rivalry').

In this regard, even if Nadal had continued to win hard court slams after USO 10, and beat Djokovic in every or nearly slam final, he could still be Nadal's biggest rival. He would just need to struggle more against Djokovic than other members of the top 4, or other tennis players in general. And that's pretty much always been the case. Federer matches up badly against him, Murray has (or had) serious mental issues in slams, and everyone else on the tour has a lot less consistency.

So sure, I grant that you predicted Djokovic and Del Potro would be most likely to trouble Nadal. But the context was always that Nadal was this unstoppable force, and all he had to do was get fully fit, and have the desire and he could win anything - and everyone else would just be fighting for scraps. It's the whole 'ultimate fighter' mythos that always seemed completely ridiculous to me: as if it doesn't matter how well your opponent plays, because you can just will yourself to win.

EXcellent comments. There is a tiny difference between "rival" and "7-0 in finals across all surfaces" :p

fast_clay
03-02-2012, 11:55 PM
EXcellent comments. There is a tiny difference between "rival" and "7-0 in finals across all surfaces" :p
:eek::spit: crikey mate, that's a bit nasty isn't it... when someone is wounded you get straight in there with the salt and make sure they feel it... whoa :speakles:

ossie
03-03-2012, 09:50 AM
thread starter must be one of the dumbest guys on this board and that is saying a lot. after being proved as wrong as anyone can be he still sticks by his initial post :stupid:

V.H.
03-03-2012, 10:28 AM
Yeah, that guy Vajda, has made Djokovic to a muggy player. He only won 4 of the last 5 Grand Slams. Any good coach would have made Djokovic completly unbeatable.

tennis2tennis
03-03-2012, 11:09 AM
evalution of this thread....
I like nole but I like rafa more

no you said you hate nole

ah ah no i didn't

yes you did

you're a big poopy head

no i'm not your a poopy head

what ever my player is the bestest

no my player is the bestest

what every i've never stepped on a court but if i did i'd make your player the bestest by...........

:rolleyes:

Start da Game
03-03-2012, 11:51 AM
The thing is, saying one player will 'rival' another player, can mean a lot of different things. It can mean that player will be able to beat the other player consistently, or even overtake them. It can mean they'll meet each other frequently in finals or semis, and will be contending for the title. It can mean one player will be able to push the other player really hard, even if they lose most of the time (eg. you believe recent Nadal-Djokovic matches are still part of their 'rivalry').

In this regard, even if Nadal had continued to win hard court slams after USO 10, and beat Djokovic in every or nearly slam final, he could still be Nadal's biggest rival. He would just need to struggle more against Djokovic than other members of the top 4, or other tennis players in general. And that's pretty much always been the case. Federer matches up badly against him, Murray has (or had) serious mental issues in slams, and everyone else on the tour has a lot less consistency.

So sure, I grant that you predicted Djokovic and Del Potro would be most likely to trouble Nadal. But the context was always that Nadal was this unstoppable force, and all he had to do was get fully fit, and have the desire and he could win anything - and everyone else would just be fighting for scraps. It's the whole 'ultimate fighter' mythos that always seemed completely ridiculous to me: as if it doesn't matter how well your opponent plays, because you can just will yourself to win.


So, since you asked me to, I had a look at the the thread (here: http://www.menstennisforums.com/showthread.php?t=152690). Not once do I see any mention of fitness. You do comment however that his serve has got better and that he needs to improve his forehand!





This is what you say about his chances vs. Nadal:


Again, not much of a 'rival'.

can you read? the rival part is not in that 2009 thread.....it's in the 2010 thread where i hinted in the options.....the fact that i talked highly about nadal doesn't mean i dismissed everyone else.....why do you think i stressed only those two names?

i haven't checked the thread and even i may not have talked about djokovic's stamina problems in that 2009 thread but i do remember mentioning several times both in 2009 and 2010 that djokovic's primary problem is his stamina issue and that once he overcomes that, the rest will take care of itself.....

i and vida had that "stamina" discussion in some thread, i don't remember which thread.....just because i don't remember which thread it was, it doesn't mean i din't say that......this search tool doesn't allow me to go back beyond 250 posts of the past for some reason.....and i don't have time to dig up that post for you with the help of mods......

the bottomline is that you have once again failed in an attempt to show that i was lying.....good luck next time.....

Start da Game
03-03-2012, 11:55 AM
:eek::spit: crikey mate, that's a bit nasty isn't it... when someone is wounded you get straight in there with the salt and make sure they feel it... whoa :speakles:

wounded online? haha.....borrow some grow up tonic from bigjohn.....he's courteous, considerate and would definitely give you some.....

Start da Game
03-03-2012, 11:57 AM
EXcellent comments. There is a tiny difference between "rival" and "7-0 in finals across all surfaces" :p

nadal and djokovic started their careers way before 2011.....

tripwires
03-03-2012, 12:20 PM
nadal and djokovic started their careers way before 2011.....

Yeah but it seems like a new narrative has been written already. And quite extensively at that. :p

Fujee
03-03-2012, 12:32 PM
So funny seeing Nadal fans make desperate excuses for all these losses.

Start da Game
03-03-2012, 12:34 PM
Yeah but it seems like a new narrative has been written already. And quite extensively at that. :p

movies do not end midway.....the second half of the "narrative" begins at indian wells.....controlled, written and directed by rafael nadal.....

tripwires
03-03-2012, 12:35 PM
movies do not end midway.....the second half of the "narrative" begins at indian wells.....controlled, written and directed by rafael nadal.....

:haha: We'll see about that. ;)

ossie
03-03-2012, 12:39 PM
So funny seeing Nadal fans make desperate excuses for all these losses.it is kinda funny, reminds me of fedfans trying to make excuses about his losses to nadal.

Singularity
03-03-2012, 12:49 PM
can you read? the rival part is not in that 2009 thread.....it's in the 2010 thread where i hinted in the options.....
This is how the argument has gone so far:

You: "I predicted Djokovic would rival Nadal in a 2010 thread"
Me: "This is what you actually said in that thread"
You: "You're blind! I asked you to bring up the 2009 thread!
Me:
You: "Oh, but I really just wanted you to read the 2009 thread"
Me: [I include what you said in the 2009 thread, at the end of my post]
You: "You idiot! I was talking about the 2010 thread!"

[quote]the fact that i talked highly about nadal doesn't mean i dismissed everyone else.....why do you think i stressed only those two names?
Because those two players were most likely to give Nadal trouble, at the time. They were the best of the options available.

Still, you claimed that Djokovic was a shadow of his 2007/2008 self, and in case simply wouldn't be able to 'hit through' Nadal - so his prospects were not exactly great.

i haven't checked the thread and even i may not have talked about djokovic's stamina problems in that 2009 thread but i do remember mentioning several times both in 2009 and 2010 that djokovic's primary problem is his stamina issue and that once he overcomes that, the rest will take care of itself.....

i and vida had that "stamina" discussion in some thread, i don't remember which thread.....just because i don't remember which thread it was, it doesn't mean i din't say that......this search tool doesn't allow me to go back beyond 250 posts of the past for some reason.....and i don't have time to dig up that post for you with the help of mods......

the bottomline is that you have once again failed in an attempt to show that i was lying.....good luck next time.....
I never said you were lying
I don't think you lied, but perhaps you're not aware of what you said originally:

i made a thread as early as in 2009 about djokovic's potential and how he can get back on track etc. goes to show how much i know.....i identified way back in 2009 that his primary problems were not serve and forehand but was actually his stamina issue which was responsible for massive drop in confidence and subsequent drop in many facets in his game......

his two biggest shots are suffering big time........the serve and the forehand........no need to look any further than that and scrutinize deeply........

he has to rediscover his stroke mechanism on those two shots and improve his stamina and focus side by side........i also think switching to head racket will go down as the biggest mistake of his life........

http://www.menstennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=10123465&postcount=83

In your post, he needed to improve his forehand/serve, and his stamina; one wasn't linked to the other.

Start da Game
03-03-2012, 01:01 PM
you are only exaggerating and making a mountain out of a molehill......"i said way back in 2009" doesn't mean that it must be that thread alone.....there are several other threads i posted and i clarified that point in earlier posts but you seem to be stuck up in the beginning of this argument.....and i already answered the "rival" part which you just keep denying for nothing.....

Because those two players were most likely to give Nadal trouble, at the time. They were the best of the options available.

utter garbage.....i remember arguing with somebody like you about the madrid 2009 semis match and clearly remember saying that nadal simply refused to lose to djokovic but was happy to let federer take the title because he thinks djokovic is his real rival and fed is not, and he shouldn't allow an inch to djoker.....all that i said in 2009......

just because i talked highly of nadal in the 2010 thread doesn't mean you can create your own theories and dismiss the original point......

Time Violation
03-03-2012, 01:13 PM
nadal and djokovic started their careers way before 2011.....

No kidding? I would've never guessed that. :) However, that was not the question. You were wondering who will be the rival to Nadal, as in who will take a set or two off him, on his way to another title. Too bad that Nadal's domination was already finished when you started that thread :)

:eek::spit: crikey mate, that's a bit nasty isn't it... when someone is wounded you get straight in there with the salt and make sure they feel it... whoa :speakles:

No need to beat around the bush :p

Singularity
03-03-2012, 01:19 PM
you are only exaggerating and making a mountain out of a molehill......"i said way back in 2009" doesn't mean that it must be that thread alone.....there are several other threads i posted and i clarified that point in earlier posts but you seem to be stuck up in the beginning of this argument.....and i already answered the "rival" part which you just keep denying for nothing.....
I guess you're just going to ignore the part of my post where I quoted you saying Djokovic's real problem was his serve and forehand, because you can't have said that.

utter garbage.....i remember arguing with somebody like you about the madrid 2009 semis match and clearly remember saying that nadal simply refused to lose to djokovic but was happy to let federer take the title because he thinks djokovic is his real rival and fed is not, and he shouldn't allow an inch to djoker.....all that i said in 2009......
Do you understand the argument?

My point is that Djokovic can be a rival to Nadal and still lose nearly all of their matches. That was the case in 2009, on clay at least - as you just pointed out.

So saying Djokovic will rival Nadal, says almost nothing about the chance he'll have beating him. Hence your original prediction was worth very little. It's a very simple argument.

Start da Game
03-03-2012, 01:19 PM
No kidding? I would've never guessed that. :) However, that was not the question. You were wondering who will be the rival to Nadal, as in who will take a set or two off him, on his way to another title. Too bad that Nadal's domination was already finished when you started that thread :)





no problem, the domination resumes shortly.....

Start da Game
03-03-2012, 01:25 PM
I guess you're just going to ignore the part of my post where I quoted you saying Djokovic's real problem was his serve and forehand, because you can't have said that.


Do you understand the argument?

My point is that Djokovic can be a rival to Nadal and still lose nearly all of their matches. That was the case in 2009, on clay at least - as you just pointed out.

So saying Djokovic will rival Nadal, says almost nothing about the chance he'll have beating him. Hence your original prediction was worth very little. It's a very simple argument.

wrong.....by saying that djokovic will rival nadal, one would normally take it as good battles between both with results split between the two, maybe a match or two more in favour of one player.....and that is exactly what has happened......it is 16-14 now.....the timing of my thread was so right in 2010, the moment djokovic began his journey towards the top.....

and i din't just say that his real problem was his serve and forehand.....i said that his real problem is his serve and forehand and that stems from the fact that he is having stamina issues......that post was in response to vida, which i don't care to dig......

tripwires
03-03-2012, 01:39 PM
I bumped this thread to laugh at munZe konZa, not Start da Game, but SdG has definitely delivered. :hearts:

Singularity. :worship:

Time Violation
03-03-2012, 01:58 PM
no problem, the domination resumes shortly.....

The domination is done and dusted. Nadal is going to be 26 in a three months, and will be very lucky to have as much success as Fed had after his 26th birthday.

Hewitt =Legend
03-03-2012, 02:11 PM
Nole lost a tennis match, this Vajda has to get the sack immediately.

Ajde..???

BroTree123
03-03-2012, 02:13 PM
Nole lost a tennis match, this Vajda has to get the sack immediately.

Ajde..???

You read my mind.

Ajde.

tripwires
03-03-2012, 02:22 PM
The domination is done and dusted. Nadal is going to be 26 in a three months, and will be very lucky to have as much success as Fed had after his 26th birthday.

Why did you have to burst his bubble? Now he's got nothing to hang on to. :sad:

SdG :hug:

Time Violation
03-03-2012, 02:41 PM
Why did you have to burst his bubble? Now he's got nothing to hang on to. :sad:

SdG :hug:

Like he's going to believe me :p In his world, Nadal will play top tennis for 10 more years at least, if Agassi did it, Nadal can do it to, no? :p

BigJohn
03-03-2012, 02:43 PM
The Tard is strong with this one

Start da Game
03-03-2012, 03:03 PM
The domination is done and dusted. Nadal is going to be 26 in a three months, and will be very lucky to have as much success as Fed had after his 26th birthday.

have you ever seen rocky 2? i will remind you of a phrase from that movie from apollo creed's friend.....

"I saw you beat that man like I never saw no man get beat before And THE MAN KEPT COMING AFTER YOU, we don't need such a man in our lives."

that's the type of fear nole and his coach carry going forward.....they know what nadal is capable of if he tastes one victory.....

BigJohn
03-03-2012, 03:10 PM
In Gymkata, a trainer says:

"There are many sounds around us, each is slightly different. So small as to go un-noticed by the person who is unaware. Do not hear the wood split. Hear the only sound of axe, cutting air. Read the air itself. It has much say to you."

Start da Game
03-03-2012, 03:20 PM
In Gymkata, a trainer says:

"There are many sounds around us, each is slightly different. So small as to go un-noticed by the person who is unaware. Do not hear the wood split. Hear the only sound of axe, cutting air. Read the air itself. It has much say to you."

utter flop movie.....

fmolinari2005
03-03-2012, 03:25 PM
In The Godfather, Peter Clemenza says:

"Leave the gun, take the cannoli"

BigJohn
03-03-2012, 03:26 PM
Rocky IV

Apollo: Maybe you don't know what I'm talking about now, but believe me you will when it's over. You will when it's over.

Time Violation
03-03-2012, 03:29 PM
have you ever seen rocky 2? i will remind you of a phrase from that movie from apollo creed's friend.....

"I saw you beat that man like I never saw no man get beat before And THE MAN KEPT COMING AFTER YOU, we don't need such a man in our lives."

that's the type of fear nole and his coach carry going forward.....they know what nadal is capable of if he tastes one victory.....

Lol, Rocky is a movie, fiction, I hope you realise that. All those things, Rocky, Spartans, blahblah is for the big screen only :)

Singularity
03-03-2012, 06:04 PM
wrong.....by saying that djokovic will rival nadal, one would normally take it as good battles between both with results split between the two, maybe a match or two more in favour of one player.....
Following this logic, Djokovic wasn't a rival to Nadal until this year, because he had a massive lead in the H2H. He was certainly not a rival to Nadal on clay, despite the fact you just said he was in 2009. Woops...

Even if we accept your definition, the thread you created asked who could challenge Nadal from now on; i.e in in the future, so the past matches are irrelevant. Since the thread was created, Djokovic won the 7 of their last 8 matches.

and that is exactly what has happened......it is 16-14 now.....the timing of my thread was so right in 2010, the moment djokovic began his journey towards the top.....
Funny then that it's entitled "who can stop Nadal", not "who can stop Djokovic", and in the thread you downplay Djokovic chances, saying that he's a shadow of his 2007/2008 self, and "can play well only in the evenings and nights".

and i din't just say that his real problem was his serve and forehand.....i said that his real problem is his serve and forehand and that stems from the fact that he is having stamina issues......that post was in response to vida, which i don't care to dig......
I'll link to the post again:

his two biggest shots are suffering big time........the serve and the forehand........no need to look any further than that and scrutinize deeply........

he has to rediscover his stroke mechanism on those two shots and improve his stamina and focus side by side........i also think switching to head racket will go down as the biggest mistake of his life........

http://www.menstennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=10123465&postcount=83

Tell me what you think it says.

Because I think it says that we don't need to look "any further", than "the serve and the forehand", and that Djokovic should also "improve his stamina and focus" alongside the serve and forehand. In other words, the problem with his serve and forehand is separate from the problem with his stamina.

Start da Game
03-03-2012, 06:10 PM
Following this logic, Djokovic wasn't a rival to Nadal until this year, because he had a massive lead in the H2H. He was certainly not a rival to Nadal on clay, despite the fact you just said he was in 2009. Woops...

Even if we accept your definition, the thread you created asked who could challenge Nadal from now on; i.e in in the future, so the past matches are irrelevant. Since the thread was created, Djokovic won the 7 of their last 8 matches.


Funny then that it's entitled "who can stop Nadal", not "who can stop Djokovic", and in the thread you downplay Djokovic chances, saying that he's a shadow of his 2007/2008 self, and "can play well only in the evenings and nights".


I'll link to the post again:



http://www.menstennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=10123465&postcount=83

Tell me what you think it says.

Because I think it says that we don't need to look "any further", than "the serve and the forehand", and that Djokovic should also "improve his stamina and focus" alongside the serve and forehand. In other words, the problem with his serve and forehand is separate from the problem with his stamina.

wrong again.....i clearly hinted who were going to be nadal's rivals.....and your definition and perception of rivalry is utterly moronic to begin with.....an all time great rivalry doesn't begin or end in a year.....it spans over years and that is what i meant with split results......

i talked about the stamina part as well.....just don't care digging it up for you, ask vida he must remember something about it.....or go seek a mod's help they might dig it up for you.....

tripwires
03-03-2012, 06:18 PM
have you ever seen rocky 2? i will remind you of a phrase from that movie from apollo creed's friend.....

"I saw you beat that man like I never saw no man get beat before And THE MAN KEPT COMING AFTER YOU, we don't need such a man in our lives."

that's the type of fear nole and his coach carry going forward.....they know what nadal is capable of if he tastes one victory.....

:haha: mate are you for real?

In Gymkata, a trainer says:

"There are many sounds around us, each is slightly different. So small as to go un-noticed by the person who is unaware. Do not hear the wood split. Hear the only sound of axe, cutting air. Read the air itself. It has much say to you."

:haha: good one. :yeah:

Singularity
03-03-2012, 06:22 PM
wrong again.....i clearly hinted who were going to be nadal's rivals.....and your definition and perception of rivalry is utterly moronic to begin with.....an all time great rivalry doesn't begin or end in a year.....it spans over years and that is what i meant with split results......
Sure, you've always said Djokovic was Nadal's rival, even when Djokovic was losing most matches to him. Hence predicting Djokovic would rival Nadal in that 2010 thread meant nothing. Even if Nadal had won most of their matches since then, you would still call it a rivalry. Just like it was a rivalry in 2009 on clay.


i talked about the stamina part as well.....just don't care digging it up for you, ask vida he must remember something about it.....or go seek a mod's help they might dig it up for you.....

You're right, you did talk about Djokovic's stamina. I'll find it for you:

his two biggest shots are suffering big time........the serve and the forehand........no need to look any further than that and scrutinize deeply........

he has to rediscover his stroke mechanism on those two shots and improve his stamina and focus side by side........i also think switching to head racket will go down as the biggest mistake of his life........

http://www.menstennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=10123465&postcount=83

Translation: Djokovic needed to improve both his forehand and his stamina.

Start da Game
03-03-2012, 06:27 PM
Sure, you've always said Djokovic was Nadal's rival, even when Djokovic was losing most matches to him. Hence predicting Djokovic would rival Nadal in that 2010 thread meant nothing. Even if Nadal had won most of their matches since then, you would still call it a rivalry. Just like it was a rivalry in 2009 on clay.


You're right, you did talk about Djokovic's stamina. I'll find it for you:



http://www.menstennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=10123465&postcount=83

Translation: Djokovic needed to improve both his forehand and his stamina.

no i wouldn't have called it a rivalry if i thought djokovic would continue losing to rafa even in 2011......i called it a rivalry because i knew djokovic was going to pick it up at some point.....

i talked about the stamina part in other threads but you still keep searching in the same thread.....don't do that, you won't find it.....

Time Violation
03-03-2012, 06:53 PM
no i wouldn't have called it a rivalry if i thought djokovic would continue losing to rafa even in 2011......i called it a rivalry because i knew djokovic was going to pick it up at some point.....

If you knew it, you sure have a funny way of saying it:

nadal has grown into an unbeatable force in slams.......who will be that player who will take him to 5 sets at the french open? who can step it up against him on grass? there is some hope for others on hardcourts but that seems to be disappearing fast with his improving hardcourt game day by day.......

once the us open concludes, this is the question which will occur to everyone.......vote and discuss.......

King Rafa... unbeatable force in slams... is anyone going to make him play 5 sets... some hope for others on hard/though hope is disappearing fast

That sounds like Nadal is going to win pretty much everything that matters, while others will fight for scraps, Nole and Delpo being the two who could get a bit more scraps than the rest of the field.

You nailed it there, what can I say, it's exactly how the rivalry unfolded.

Singularity
03-03-2012, 07:01 PM
no i wouldn't have called it a rivalry if i thought djokovic would continue losing to rafa even in 2011......i called it a rivalry because i knew djokovic was going to pick it up at some point.....
After their Madrid 2009 match Djokovic had lost 9 times in a row to Nadal on clay. He would have had to beat Nadal 10 consecutive times to turn it around. Yet in this very thread you said you called their clay matches a rivalry. And as I've said a hundred times now, you actually downplayed Djokovic's chances in 2011! Nowhere did you say that Djokovic would turn things around 2011; if anything you indicated the opposite. Djokovic "can play well only in the evenings and nights" etc.

i talked about the stamina part in other threads but you still keep searching in the same thread.....don't do that, you won't find it.....
And what's wrong with the thread I picked? Unless you have a different opinion in each thread...

Alex999
03-03-2012, 07:10 PM
After their Madrid 2009 match Djokovic had lost 9 times in a row to Nadal on clay. He would have had to beat Nadal 10 consecutive times to turn it around. Yet in this very thread you said you called their clay matches a rivalry. And as I've said a hundred times now, you actually downplayed Djokovic's chances in 2011! Nowhere did you say that Djokovic would turn things around 2011; if anything you indicated the opposite. Djokovic "can play well only in the evenings and nights" etc.


And what's wrong with the thread I picked? Unless you have a different opinion in each thread...
right. well like or not (obviously you don't but that's fine with me) Novak owns Nadal right now. PERIOD. the end of the story. a young Nole was simply too inexperienced when he was losing to Nadal. it took some time for him to mature. that's all. still, young Nole 1.0 had some very convincing wins against Rafa.

Start da Game
03-03-2012, 07:12 PM
After their Madrid 2009 match Djokovic had lost 9 times in a row to Nadal on clay. He would have had to beat Nadal 10 consecutive times to turn it around. Yet in this very thread you said you called their clay matches a rivalry. And as I've said a hundred times now, you actually downplayed Djokovic's chances in 2011! Nowhere did you say that Djokovic would turn things around 2011; if anything you indicated the opposite. Djokovic "can play well only in the evenings and nights" etc.


And what's wrong with the thread I picked? Unless you have a different opinion in each thread...

you still don't get it.....what you said holds true only when you consider that they wouldn't face on clay anymore after 2009 which clearly isn't the case there.....

it's not different opinions in different threads.....it's an assessment based on keen observation.....i may have spoken about the stamina part a little later but i still did and in fact i said that his stamina issues hold resposibility to his drop in level.....

leng jai
03-04-2012, 12:08 AM
Gotta give credit where credit is due - Start da Game is definitely one of the top prophets on MTF at the moment. Sapeod better watch out.

Ajde.

Sham Kay
03-04-2012, 12:23 AM
I'm unable to follow the conversations in here so I'll follow my own train of thought

I imagine Marian Vajda not as a coach but as the third wheel in everything Nole related.. wins Tennis matches he's there fanboying.. goes out partying he's there gyrating on a car.. gets married he's there bearing the ring.. in bed with his wife he's there in between them..

Singularity
03-04-2012, 07:03 PM
you still don't get it.....what you said holds true only when you consider that they wouldn't face on clay anymore after 2009 which clearly isn't the case there.....
Djokovic had a 0 - 9 H2H vs. Nadal on clay after Madrid 2009. When you saw Djokovic lose that match and declared he was Nadal's "real challanger" on clay, you did it because you imagined 4 years later Djokovic would turn the H2H around (he's still nowhere close BTW)? Or you did it because he gave Nadal an incredible battle, and could realistically score a few victories over him in the future?

One requires Djokovic to outplay Nadal on clay for 4 years straight; the other requires that he's at least competitive in their remaining encounters.

That's the spirit in which I take your 2010 thread. In the thread and others you indicate that Djokovic's chances of beating Nadal consistently are not good. You do not tell us that Djokovic will catch up, you do not back Djokovic against Rafa on any surface.

Here's another thread I found explaining Djokovic's chances against Nadal on hard court:

when he is fit and playing at his best on a hardcourt, del potro at his best and djokovic at his best have a 30% chance.......rest of them don't stand more than 10% chance.......

http://www.menstennisforums.com/showthread.php?p=10136156#post10136156

In other words, Djokovic should be winning a third of their matches where they both play at their highest level. Doesn't seem like the rivalry you were talking about earlier, does it?

Start da Game
03-04-2012, 07:27 PM
Djokovic had a 0 - 9 H2H vs. Nadal on clay after Madrid 2009. When you saw Djokovic lose that match and declared he was Nadal's "real challanger" on clay, you did it because you imagined 4 years later Djokovic would turn the H2H around (he's still nowhere close BTW)? Or you did it because he gave Nadal an incredible battle, and could realistically score a few victories over him in the future?

One requires Djokovic to outplay Nadal on clay for 4 years straight; the other requires that he's at least competitive in their remaining encounters.

That's the spirit in which I take your 2010 thread. In the thread and others you indicate that Djokovic's chances of beating Nadal consistently are not good. You do not tell us that Djokovic will catch up, you do not back Djokovic against Rafa on any surface.

Here's another thread I found explaining Djokovic's chances against Nadal on hard court:



http://www.menstennisforums.com/showthread.php?p=10136156#post10136156

In other words, Djokovic should be winning a third of their matches where they both play at their highest level. Doesn't seem like the rivalry you were talking about earlier, does it?

does "covering acres of real state in that point" means exactly that? or "standing miles behind the baseline" means exactly that? only to a retard.....your argument seems similar and i hope you are not like that in real life......i hope so because you seem to be like a guy who needs to be told everything if he visits a supermarket for example.....

instructions from the counter guy:
1. give your list
2. take out your wallet from the pocket
3. take one 10 pound note
4. give it to me
5. pick your bag
6. push the door
7. exit

i knew way back in 2009 that djokovic would be nadal's rival in the coming years......now whether it was because he was 0-9 or other stuff you mention is not the point here.....the point is that i knew it and it turned out to be true......

Singularity
03-04-2012, 08:17 PM
i knew way back in 2009 that djokovic would be nadal's rival in the coming years......now whether it was because he was 0-9 or other stuff you mention is not the point here.....the point is that i knew it and it turned out to be true......
What turned out to be true? What prediction did you make, and where can we find on the forum? You said Djokovic was a 'challenger' to Nadal, even on surfaces where he had little chance of catching up to Nadal. You made threads including Djokovic as a poll option, but you never said when or if Djokovic would ever beat Nadal. And in those threads you informed us that Djokovic had lost his way, or was a shadow of his 2007/2008 self, or would never be able to hit through Nadal.

I don't see any prediction. I see a lot of vague comments and questions about Djokovic's potential, that you've now decided perfectly reflect what actually happened. That the 2010 thread was made because you knew Djokovic was coming back even though you entitled it "Who can challenge King Rafa" (!).

does "covering acres of real state in that point" means exactly that? or "standing miles behind the baseline" means exactly that? only to a retard.....your argument seems similar and i hope you are not like that in real life......i hope so because you seem to be like a guy who needs to be told everything if he visits a supermarket for example.....

instructions from the counter guy:
1. give your list
2. take out your wallet from the pocket
3. take one 10 pound note
4. give it to me
5. pick your bag
6. push the door
7. exit
Do you know what an argument is?

A series of steps or claims which follow on from each other and lead to an inevitable conclusion. Do you know what happens if you leave out some of these steps? You get an incomplete argument.

So yes, everything needs to be spelled out in as clear a way as possible, so people can understand what you're trying to say. And when someone presents an argument to you, do you know what you have to do? You have to reconstruct their own reasoning, and find the the step or steps where they went wrong. And when you have multiple posts with someone you have to keep track of where you are in the argument, so you don't go round in circles (as we are here).

These are just basic principles of debating on the internet, which seem to get lost with you. If you're going to skip over an entire post without responding to any of the points, then why bother continuing? If you're not going to exert any effort into understanding someone's else's argument, then why bother continuing? Especially when it ends in being called a retard.

Start da Game
03-05-2012, 07:45 AM
What turned out to be true? What prediction did you make, and where can we find on the forum? You said Djokovic was a 'challenger' to Nadal, even on surfaces where he had little chance of catching up to Nadal. You made threads including Djokovic as a poll option, but you never said when or if Djokovic would ever beat Nadal. And in those threads you informed us that Djokovic had lost his way, or was a shadow of his 2007/2008 self, or would never be able to hit through Nadal.

I don't see any prediction. I see a lot of vague comments and questions about Djokovic's potential, that you've now decided perfectly reflect what actually happened. That the 2010 thread was made because you knew Djokovic was coming back even though you entitled it "Who can challenge King Rafa" (!).


Do you know what an argument is?

A series of steps or claims which follow on from each other and lead to an inevitable conclusion. Do you know what happens if you leave out some of these steps? You get an incomplete argument.

So yes, everything needs to be spelled out in as clear a way as possible, so people can understand what you're trying to say. And when someone presents an argument to you, do you know what you have to do? You have to reconstruct their own reasoning, and find the the step or steps where they went wrong. And when you have multiple posts with someone you have to keep track of where you are in the argument, so you don't go round in circles (as we are here).

These are just basic principles of debating on the internet, which seem to get lost with you. If you're going to skip over an entire post without responding to any of the points, then why bother continuing? If you're not going to exert any effort into understanding someone's else's argument, then why bother continuing? Especially when it ends in being called a retard.

the fact that when djokovic was still losing to nadal, i still foresaw djokovic as nadal's rival in the future is the point which ends this clearly in my favour.....it only shows that i was right......you are just being childish saying that i din't say when and where djokovic was going to beat nadal.....i mean did you want me to say that djokovic would beat nadal in rome 2011 and madrid 2011 and also all those other wins he had over rafa? :haha: that's not how it works, you should get this much that as early as in 2009 i foresaw djokovic challenging nadal in the future.....

Singularity
03-05-2012, 11:27 PM
the fact that when djokovic was still losing to nadal, i still foresaw djokovic as nadal's rival in the future is the point which ends this clearly in my favour.....it only shows that i was right......you are just being childish saying that i din't say when and where djokovic was going to beat nadal.....i mean did you want me to say that djokovic would beat nadal in rome 2011 and madrid 2011 and also all those other wins he had over rafa? :haha: that's not how it works, you should get this much that as early as in 2009 i foresaw djokovic challenging nadal in the future.....
Djokovic was already challenging Nadal in 2009. It's not rocket science that he would score more victories against him - the H2H was 3 - 4 for that year, with the clay matches being very close.

So again unless you can show exactly what you 'predicted', other than vague notions of Djokovic "challenging" Nadal, you don't have a case.

Furthermore, I think it's crazy that you can downplay Djokovic's chances practically every time they meet, while still getting credit for predicting Djokovic's victories. In those threads in 2010 you said Djokovic had lost his way, then that the streak would for sure end at Rome/Madrid 2011 (perhaps understandably). At Wimbledon 2011 you gave Djokovic "zero chance" of winning, however, and even at USO I recall that you backed Nadal to do it in 5. Now IW/Miami have come around, you're backing Nadal again.

Yet, somehow you still manage to take credit for predicting Djokovic's victories, in a thread entitled "Who can challenge King Rafa", in which you actually tell us not count on Djokovic. Do you not see how completely ridiculous that is?

BigJohn
03-06-2012, 02:13 AM
Do you not see how completely ridiculous that is?

He has obviously no idea.

swebright
03-06-2012, 02:24 AM
I think Novak is his own coach; may be he had some help from a sports psychologist and started thinking positive (plus that EGG) ....> good results.
I don't think his coach really "coach" him.

Start da Game
03-06-2012, 05:08 AM
Djokovic was already challenging Nadal in 2009. It's not rocket science that he would score more victories against him - the H2H was 3 - 4 for that year, with the clay matches being very close.

So again unless you can show exactly what you 'predicted', other than vague notions of Djokovic "challenging" Nadal, you don't have a case.

Furthermore, I think it's crazy that you can downplay Djokovic's chances practically every time they meet, while still getting credit for predicting Djokovic's victories. In those threads in 2010 you said Djokovic had lost his way, then that the streak would for sure end at Rome/Madrid 2011 (perhaps understandably). At Wimbledon 2011 you gave Djokovic "zero chance" of winning, however, and even at USO I recall that you backed Nadal to do it in 5. Now IW/Miami have come around, you're backing Nadal again.

Yet, somehow you still manage to take credit for predicting Djokovic's victories, in a thread entitled "Who can challenge King Rafa", in which you actually tell us not count on Djokovic. Do you not see how completely ridiculous that is?

if it was not rocket science, you should have called it then......but you din't and i did.....

you are confusing cheering my favourite player for specific matches with overall long term opinions.....of course i would cheer and be positive about nadal's chances anywhere against djokovic.....that doesn't mean i did not know of djokovic's capabilities......if i din't, i would never have been able to predict in 2009 that djokovic would be the one to challenge nadal.....

no, it is not ridiculous, it is a thread for discussions and debates about who was going to challenge king rafa......the fact that i added no one apart from djokovic and del potro was the hint and that moment belonged to rafa......i was elevating him like he deserved but did not forget to ask who was going to stop him which was the main purpose of the thread.....

heya
03-06-2012, 05:36 AM
if positive thoughts affected so many results, federer would win with 2 set leads in slams and every top 5 player would win several slams. however, obnoxious, negative loudmouth federer, his fans and losers do destroy the level of play of the current tour.

Singularity
03-06-2012, 07:46 PM
if it was not rocket science, you should have called it then......but you din't and i did.....
Called what? Djokovic did challenge Nadal in 2009. That's the point - no looking into the future was needed.

you are confusing cheering my favourite player for specific matches with overall long term opinions.....of course i would cheer and be positive about nadal's chances anywhere against djokovic.....that doesn't mean i did not know of djokovic's capabilities......if i din't, i would never have been able to predict in 2009 that djokovic would be the one to challenge nadal.....
You're missing the point. What did you predict, exactly? What event or events did you say would happen, and when did you say these would happen?

Because I don't see any specific predictions at all. Let me make a so-called 'prediction' now: Murray will challenge Nadal.

Whether Murray loses many close matches (all their non clay matches are pretty close, really) or comprehensively beats Nadal, I can still argue I was 'right' in my prediction. Now to be like you I'll just say Murray is washed up, not playing like he was a few years ago, and we probably shouldn't count on him winning any matches.

Now I can take credit for all the matches Murray wins, saying I 'predicted' it (I always knew Murray would challenge Nadal etc.) If he loses instead, no big deal - I never said he would win anyway!

no, it is not ridiculous, it is a thread for discussions and debates about who was going to challenge king rafa......the fact that i added no one apart from djokovic and del potro was the hint and that moment belonged to rafa......i was elevating him like he deserved but did not forget to ask who was going to stop him which was the main purpose of the thread.....
Exactly. You asked a question. You didn't make any predictions at all.

Orka_n
03-06-2012, 10:28 PM
if it was not rocket science, you should have called it then......but you din't and i did.....

you are confusing cheering my favourite player for specific matches with overall long term opinions.....of course i would cheer and be positive about nadal's chances anywhere against djokovic.....that doesn't mean i did not know of djokovic's capabilities......if i din't, i would never have been able to predict in 2009 that djokovic would be the one to challenge nadal.....

no, it is not ridiculous, it is a thread for discussions and debates about who was going to challenge king rafa......the fact that i added no one apart from djokovic and del potro was the hint and that moment belonged to rafa......i was elevating him like he deserved but did not forget to ask who was going to stop him which was the main purpose of the thread.....Tragic stuff.

Alex999
03-07-2012, 12:21 AM
back to the topic. Nole is a guy who simply flourish when he has a successful relationship with his trainer, his gf, whoever. I'm sure that Vajda did a great job, but Nole had to mature etc. Nole will probably never change his trainer.

Start da Game
03-07-2012, 07:58 AM
Called what? Djokovic did challenge Nadal in 2009. That's the point - no looking into the future was needed.


You're missing the point. What did you predict, exactly? What event or events did you say would happen, and when did you say these would happen?

Because I don't see any specific predictions at all. Let me make a so-called 'prediction' now: Murray will challenge Nadal.

Whether Murray loses many close matches (all their non clay matches are pretty close, really) or comprehensively beats Nadal, I can still argue I was 'right' in my prediction. Now to be like you I'll just say Murray is washed up, not playing like he was a few years ago, and we probably shouldn't count on him winning any matches.

Now I can take credit for all the matches Murray wins, saying I 'predicted' it (I always knew Murray would challenge Nadal etc.) If he loses instead, no big deal - I never said he would win anyway!


Exactly. You asked a question. You didn't make any predictions at all.

maybe not need for you, but i did call it for everyone else to see.....

predictions will never be very 100% specific unless you are talking about specific events.....if you think predictions over long term mean exact 100% predictions including the events and places, then you are just helpless.....you remind me of that supermarket case for some reason.....

regarding that 2010 thread, this is the umpteenth time and you still don't seem to get it.....the moment belonged to nadal and it was right o talk high about him......but the fact that i involved only djokovic and del potro should be clue enough.....

i also told you that i discussed with vida as well....you seem to be arguing just for the heck of it and don't quite know yourself what you are upto with this constant back and forth.....haha.....but that's fine anyway, even if you really are that helpless and not getting the point, i am there to help you any number of times.....

Start da Game
03-07-2012, 08:06 AM
Tragic stuff.

wrong, it's the right stuff making things tragic for fedtards.....

Start da Game
03-07-2012, 08:07 AM
back to the topic. Nole is a guy who simply flourish when he has a successful relationship with his trainer, his gf, whoever. I'm sure that Vajda did a great job, but Nole had to mature etc. Nole will probably never change his trainer.

i doubt he will change his coach either.....they might all continue working together.....those doctors, vajda, trainer and himself.....

fsoica
03-07-2012, 11:50 AM
SdG uses fuzzy logic, guys. One needs some degrees in advanced math and quantum physics to understand his view of the tennis world and of the djokovic nadal rivalry, which, by the way, is completely counterintuitive. His understanding, I mean...

In the mean time, normal people are still watching and counting:
16-7, 16-8, 16-9,...., 16-13, 16-14...

If anyone is really interested in understanding da Game's approach, I could redirect you to a fuzzy logic familiarisation webpage. The fact that you would accomplish nothing by visiting it, that's the other side of the story :)

Alex999
03-07-2012, 01:16 PM
I think Novak is his own coach; may be he had some help from a sports psychologist and started thinking positive (plus that EGG) ....> good results.
I don't think his coach really "coach" him.
you know what I agree... Novak is a developed player. I think that Vajda is with him more for a mental support. after all the time they have spent together, what can Vajda really teach him? I still think it's a great relationship....

Time Violation
03-07-2012, 01:21 PM
you know what I agree... Novak is a developed player. I think that Vajda is with him more for a mental support. after all the time they have spent together, what can Vajda really teach him? I still think it's a great relationship....

Well, at this point certainly not going to teach him how to hit a backhand :p However, I guess they do talk about tactics/opponents, etc :)

Singularity
03-07-2012, 07:42 PM
maybe not need for you, but i did call it for everyone else to see.....

predictions will never be very 100% specific unless you are talking about specific events.....if you think predictions over long term mean exact 100% predictions including the events and places, then you are just helpless.....you remind me of that supermarket case for some reason.....
Predictions don't need to be 100% accurate or specific. But at minimum a prediction needs to specify under what conditions it will be true, and under what conditions it will be false. Otherwise how are you to determine whether it was right or wrong, after the fact?

And that's what you're missing. Vague statements are not predictions.

But lets forget all this for a moment. I'm going to make one of your so-called 'predictions':

Murray will challenge Nadal.

Feel free to bump up this thread in the future depending on what happens. Now, like you, I'm going to add that I'm not counting on Murray to win matches vs. Nadal. In fact I might back Nadal in every match he plays vs. Murray. Still, whatever happens I think I'm pretty well covered, by your 'logic'.

regarding that 2010 thread, this is the umpteenth time and you still don't seem to get it.....the moment belonged to nadal and it was right o talk high about him......but the fact that i involved only djokovic and del potro should be clue enough.....
You're the one missing the point. It doesn't matter why you didn't include a prediction (didn't want to overshadow Nadal or whatever); just that you didn't include one. Hence there's nothing for you to be 'right' about.

Adding Djokovic as a poll option doesn't commit you to anything.

If Djokovic beats Nadal you can say you knew this all along (and that's why you included him).

If Nadal beats Djokovic you can say you knew this all along, which is why you didn't back Djokovic in the thread.

arm
03-07-2012, 07:55 PM
Can't believe this thread is still on the first page. :facepalm:

MIMIC
03-07-2012, 08:11 PM
OK, now that Novak has won 3 slams his coach's way, time to win them more efficiently: less defensive spin and more commitment on the volleys. :rocker2:

asmazif
03-07-2012, 08:35 PM
Marian Ravenwood Vajda should be knighted. Great guy.

Start da Game
03-08-2012, 04:43 AM
Predictions don't need to be 100% accurate or specific. But at minimum a prediction needs to specify under what conditions it will be true, and under what conditions it will be false. Otherwise how are you to determine whether it was right or wrong, after the fact?

And that's what you're missing. Vague statements are not predictions.

But lets forget all this for a moment. I'm going to make one of your so-called 'predictions':

Murray will challenge Nadal.

Feel free to bump up this thread in the future depending on what happens. Now, like you, I'm going to add that I'm not counting on Murray to win matches vs. Nadal. In fact I might back Nadal in every match he plays vs. Murray. Still, whatever happens I think I'm pretty well covered, by your 'logic'.


You're the one missing the point. It doesn't matter why you didn't include a prediction (didn't want to overshadow Nadal or whatever); just that you didn't include one. Hence there's nothing for you to be 'right' about.

Adding Djokovic as a poll option doesn't commit you to anything.

If Djokovic beats Nadal you can say you knew this all along (and that's why you included him).

If Nadal beats Djokovic you can say you knew this all along, which is why you didn't back Djokovic in the thread.

it's the same mistake you keep making.....i was speaking about long term and not any specific condition or surface......when we are doing long term and when there's not much difference in surfaces, "conditions" in this case are as good as useless.....

i knew djokovic would pick up and challenge nadal at some point and that is exactly what has happened......you are arguing just because i did not mention the time frame or surfaces on which djokovic was going to beat nadal.....that is laughable.....

your murray prediction might be true but it's not a great prediction considering that nadal is not on top of his game.....i predicted when nadal was well on top of his game and djokovic was hopeless as hell.....

Singularity
03-08-2012, 06:58 PM
it's the same mistake you keep making.....i was speaking about long term and not any specific condition or surface......when we are doing long term and when there's not much difference in surfaces, "conditions" in this case are as good as useless.....

i knew djokovic would pick up and challenge nadal at some point and that is exactly what has happened......you are arguing just because i did not mention the time frame or surfaces on which djokovic was going to beat nadal.....that is laughable.....
Why is it laughable? Djokovic did beat Nadal 3 times in 2009. If your prediction was "Djokovic will beat Nadal at some point", then OK you were right, but I don't think anyone would have disagreed with your prediction beforehand.

Predicting specific events is impressive. Predicting that something that's commonly happened before will happen again, in the next 5 - 10 years, is not very impressive.

It's clear that you didn't anticipate Djokovic's rise in 2011, because you weren't very optimistic about Djokovic's prospects vs Nadal in 2010, and at every step of the way, basically, you anticipated that Djokovic's run would end. So out of this we're to conclude you have amazing skills of prediction, because you said Djokovic would at some point in time beat Nadal (which he was doing anyway)?

your murray prediction might be true but it's not a great prediction considering that nadal is not on top of his game.....i predicted when nadal was well on top of his game and djokovic was hopeless as hell.....
Djokovic was pretty much always competitive with Nadal, though, and right from the start he was beating Nadal on hard courts. Even in 2008 in which Nadal was playing arguably his best tennis, Djokovic had a 2-1 record over him on hard courts.

Start da Game
03-08-2012, 07:10 PM
Why is it laughable? Djokovic did beat Nadal 3 times in 2009. If your prediction was "Djokovic will beat Nadal at some point", then OK you were right, but I don't think anyone would have disagreed with your prediction beforehand.

Predicting specific events is impressive. Predicting that something that's commonly happened before will happen again, in the next 5 - 10 years, is not very impressive.

It's clear that you didn't anticipate Djokovic's rise in 2011, because you weren't very optimistic about Djokovic's prospects vs Nadal in 2010, and at every step of the way, basically, you anticipated that Djokovic's run would end. So out of this we're to conclude you have amazing skills of prediction, because you said Djokovic would at some point in time beat Nadal (which he was doing anyway)?


Djokovic was pretty much always competitive with Nadal, though, and right from the start he was beating Nadal on hard courts. Even in 2008 in which Nadal was playing arguably his best tennis, Djokovic had a 2-1 record over him on hard courts.

this post pretty much sums up what you have been doing in this thread so far.....

i clearly wrote "djokovic will pick up and challenge nadal" and you quoted me as saying "djokovic will beat nadal at some point" and start creating your own cases all over again.....

and now the lying part arrives when you accuse me of dismissing djokovic after 2010.....haha, what else you have got?

Singularity
03-08-2012, 08:00 PM
this post pretty much sums up what you have been doing in this thread so far.....

i clearly wrote "djokovic will pick up and challenge nadal" and you quoted me as saying "djokovic will beat nadal at some point" and start creating your own cases all over again.....
But that's the point. Djokovic will challenge Nadal is a completely ambiguous statement.

You can give it whatever meaning you want after the fact.

That's why you need to specify exactly what you were predicting at the time. And that's what you've spectacularly failed to do.

If your prediction was not "djokovic will beat nadal at some point", then what was it, and where can we find it? Again, "Djokovic will challenge Nadal" can mean a hundred different things.

and now the lying part arrives when you accuse me of dismissing djokovic after 2010.....haha, what else you have got?
I said you were not optimistic about Djokovic's chances vs. Nadal. Tell me are these posts optimistic?

"djokovic is no more the djoker of 2007, 2008.......he's just the "dark knight of tennis" meaning he can play well only in the evenings and nights.......who else left?"

http://www.menstennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=10652465&postcount=22

"the problem for him is nadal......he can blast past anyone but nadal......djoko lost to rafa on all surfaces in slams just like fed.......

there was a time in 2008 when he could have taken his confidence to another level but found nadal in his way time and again......federer was enjoying gutless confrontation in one half while nadal and djokovic were spartaning in the other......"

http://www.menstennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=10378370&postcount=116

There was another post where you said Djokovic had lost his way, which I can't find now. Oh, and the end of 2010 you made a thread talking about how Nadal had completely crushed Djokovic, and you wondered if the same was happening to Murray.

Edit: just to add

i clearly wrote "djokovic will pick up and challenge nadal" and you quoted me as saying "djokovic will beat nadal at some point" and start creating your own cases all over again.....

I never quoted you as saying "djokovic will pick up and challenge nadal". What I said was: "If your prediction was "Djokovic will beat Nadal at some point", then OK you were right, but I don't think anyone would have disagreed with your prediction."

In other words, saying Djokovic will beat Nadal in the future isn't saying a lot. So your prediction must have been more than that... Yet you just said you had no surface or even timeframe in mind...

I'm really starting to wonder if you're actually reading what I'm saying.

Orka_n
03-08-2012, 09:16 PM
Start da Fail is getting owned so badly by Singularity that his Indian ancestors are crying right now.

leng jai
03-08-2012, 11:07 PM
Whose prophetic powers are greater - Start Da Game or Sapeod?

Ajde

Start da Game
03-09-2012, 09:58 AM
But that's the point. Djokovic will challenge Nadal is a completely ambiguous statement.

You can give it whatever meaning you want after the fact.

That's why you need to specify exactly what you were predicting at the time. And that's what you've spectacularly failed to do.

If your prediction was not "djokovic will beat nadal at some point", then what was it, and where can we find it? Again, "Djokovic will challenge Nadal" can mean a hundred different things.


I said you were not optimistic about Djokovic's chances vs. Nadal. Tell me are these posts optimistic?

"djokovic is no more the djoker of 2007, 2008.......he's just the "dark knight of tennis" meaning he can play well only in the evenings and nights.......who else left?"

http://www.menstennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=10652465&postcount=22

"the problem for him is nadal......he can blast past anyone but nadal......djoko lost to rafa on all surfaces in slams just like fed.......

there was a time in 2008 when he could have taken his confidence to another level but found nadal in his way time and again......federer was enjoying gutless confrontation in one half while nadal and djokovic were spartaning in the other......"

http://www.menstennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=10378370&postcount=116

There was another post where you said Djokovic had lost his way, which I can't find now. Oh, and the end of 2010 you made a thread talking about how Nadal had completely crushed Djokovic, and you wondered if the same was happening to Murray.

Edit: just to add


I never quoted you as saying "djokovic will pick up and challenge nadal". What I said was: "If your prediction was "Djokovic will beat Nadal at some point", then OK you were right, but I don't think anyone would have disagreed with your prediction."

In other words, saying Djokovic will beat Nadal in the future isn't saying a lot. So your prediction must have been more than that... Yet you just said you had no surface or even timeframe in mind...

I'm really starting to wonder if you're actually reading what I'm saying.

you have it totally wrong for the nth time.....no problem though, i will correct you any no. of times.....do you remember the early example of the stores guy and the ungrown kid? you have just repeated the same thing here for the nth time......

"djokovic will challenge nadal" will never have hundred meanings......who told you that it can have 100 meanings? are you even english for real? that statement has only one basic meaning going by the way it was meant to be and the context it was used......

it simply means that djokovic will take it to nadal in the future and challenge him in the rivalry.....now whether that is by beating him in 10 matches in a row or 10 slams in row is not essential......

you are just trying too hard to be a smart ass and getting owned over and over.....haha, are you even for real? you wanted me to predict the exact time frame and the no. of matches where djokovic was going to beat nadal.....and only if i did so you would accept that i predicted? :haha:

bringing people like orka and other insignificants for your support only shows your desperateness to prove me wrong......

a lie again in that last but one paragraph.....you did quote me saying "djokovic will beat nadal" when i said "djokovic will pick it up and rival rafa real hard", but again it's not relevant when and where djokovic was going to beat because that's not how long term predictions are made.....

Start da Game
03-09-2012, 10:24 AM
Start da Fail is getting owned so badly by Singularity that his Indian ancestors are crying right now.

i thought only dogs have that ability of sensing weird things?

Orka_n
03-10-2012, 01:13 AM
i thought only dogs have that ability of sensing weird things?Is this supposed to be an insult? :scratch: Wow mate, you're really terrible at this.

Also, you're bragging because you "predicted" Nole would challenge Nadal? :secret: He is DESTROYING Nadal. Better luck next time, champ.

leng jai
03-10-2012, 01:23 AM
My prediction is that Rafito will retire within the next 50 years. I will return to this thread in 50 years time and make everyone who disagrees with me eat crow.

Ajde.

tripwires
03-10-2012, 06:41 AM
Nadull will retire within the next 51 years.

Vida
03-10-2012, 12:08 PM
this was a epic thread, be easy on the guy.

Alex999
03-10-2012, 12:20 PM
completely off the topic, but I'm just wondering how much Vajda (and other trainers) get paid for their work with the elite guys? anybody?

Singularity
03-10-2012, 01:00 PM
"djokovic will challenge nadal" will never have hundred meanings......who told you that it can have 100 meanings? are you even english for real? that statement has only one basic meaning going by the way it was meant to be and the context it was used......


it simply means that djokovic will take it to nadal in the future and challenge him in the rivalry.....
So, "djokovic will challenge Nadal" means that "djokovic will challenge him in the rivalry". OK!

Here are some facts: Djokovic won 3 of their 7 matches in 2009, and all of their matches on hardcourt. Nearly all the other matches were very close. So, my question is, did Djokovic "take it to nadal" and "challenge him in the rivalry" in 2009?


If you claim no, then you're going to have to argue for your your own definition of what it means for Djokovic to "challenge" Nadal (beating him several times in a season isn't enough). But then you'll have to concede that the statement "djokovic will challenge nadal" or "Djokovic will take it to Nadal" can have multiple meanings.

If you claim yes, then your prediction suddenly looks a lot less impressive. It becomes "Djokovic will at some point over the next 5+ years, beat Nadal multiple times, like he did in 2009".

[Note here that when I use quotation marks, I'm not trying to attribute this phrase to you - I'm just spelling out what the prediction would mean]

We've just being going round in circles so far, so lets stick to this one question - so we can move forward. Is your answer "yes", or "no"?

tripwires
03-10-2012, 03:36 PM
We've just being going round in circles so far, so lets stick to this one question - so we can move forward. Is your answer "yes", or "no"?

That's usually what happens when one tries to "argue" with SDF.

Orka_n
03-10-2012, 10:50 PM
So, "djokovic will challenge Nadal" means that "djokovic will challenge him in the rivalry". OK!

Here are some facts: Djokovic won 3 of their 7 matches in 2009, and all of their matches on hardcourt. Nearly all the other matches were very close. So, my question is, did Djokovic "take it to nadal" and "challenge him in the rivalry" in 2009?


If you claim no, then you're going to have to argue for your your own definition of what it means for Djokovic to "challenge" Nadal (beating him several times in a season isn't enough). But then you'll have to concede that the statement "djokovic will challenge nadal" or "Djokovic will take it to Nadal" can have multiple meanings.

If you claim yes, then your prediction suddenly looks a lot less impressive. It becomes "Djokovic will at some point over the next 5+ years, beat Nadal multiple times, like he did in 2009".

[Note here that when I use quotation marks, I'm not trying to attribute this phrase to you - I'm just spelling out what the prediction would mean]

We've just being going round in circles so far, so lets stick to this one question - so we can move forward. Is your answer "yes", or "no"?Too big.

Start da Game
03-11-2012, 04:43 AM
So, "djokovic will challenge Nadal" means that "djokovic will challenge him in the rivalry". OK!

Here are some facts: Djokovic won 3 of their 7 matches in 2009, and all of their matches on hardcourt. Nearly all the other matches were very close. So, my question is, did Djokovic "take it to nadal" and "challenge him in the rivalry" in 2009?


If you claim no, then you're going to have to argue for your your own definition of what it means for Djokovic to "challenge" Nadal (beating him several times in a season isn't enough). But then you'll have to concede that the statement "djokovic will challenge nadal" or "Djokovic will take it to Nadal" can have multiple meanings.

If you claim yes, then your prediction suddenly looks a lot less impressive. It becomes "Djokovic will at some point over the next 5+ years, beat Nadal multiple times, like he did in 2009".

[Note here that when I use quotation marks, I'm not trying to attribute this phrase to you - I'm just spelling out what the prediction would mean]

We've just being going round in circles so far, so lets stick to this one question - so we can move forward. Is your answer "yes", or "no"?

wrong again.....i told you that it's not about whether djokovic will beat him 5 times or beat him 10 times or beat him 20 times in a row.....

the point was made in a broader picture and obviously it would mean djokovic would take down nadal at the events which matter and challenge his no.1 spot.....how he does it and where he beats him is irrelevant.....that's how anyone with a normal brain would perceive it by "djokovic would become nadal's main rival".....

was djokovic challenging his no.1 spot in 2009? what was he achieving against rafa even in 2010? did he beat him at least in one slam? was he threatening nadal's no.1 spot? you are just a sad joke who doesn't know how to get out of this loop you have created for yourself.....

haha as if those wins in 2009 prove that djokovic were threatening nadal.....if that's the perception you have in mind about the "real picture" in real life, then you definitely must be having problems getting big......

Singularity
03-13-2012, 12:36 AM
wrong again.....i told you that it's not about whether djokovic will beat him 5 times or beat him 10 times or beat him 20 times in a row.....

the point was made in a broader picture and obviously it would mean djokovic would take down nadal at the events which matter and challenge his no.1 spot.....how he does it and where he beats him is irrelevant.....that's how anyone with a normal brain would perceive it by "djokovic would become nadal's main rival".....
Which events matter? How close does Djokovic have to come to taking no.1? For example, I'm sure you would agree that Nadal was Federer's 'rival' from 2005 to 2007, yet Federer was always well ahead in the points, and Nadal only beat him at 1 of the 4 slams (RG).

I've repeatedly asked you to give a more exact prediction, and your response has been "well it doesn't matter". It doesn't matter which surfaces Djokovic beats Nadal, it doesn't matter when it happens. Now you've finally specified that you predicted that it would be in the "important" events (I guess slams), but how often was Djokovic to beat Nadal? I don't think there is an answer to these questions, because it was never part of your original prediction.

The consequence is that you can be 'right' in a world in which Djokovic continues to dominate Nadal ("I knew Djokovic would challenge Nadal") or in a world in which Djokovic was never able to 'overcome' Nadal, winning at most 1 HC slam off him per season, and coming in at no.2 (he's still the closest rival). And because there's no timeframe, we could be talking about what happens in 2012 or 2015.

This discussion started because (in my interpretation) you wanted to gain some credit for predicting Djokovic's rise in 2011. My point has always been that you never predicted this rise specifically, and played down Djokovic's chances against Nadal, especially on clay and grass (eg. at Wimbledon you sad Djokovic had zero chance of winning). If you want to receive credit for predicting Djokovic would challenge Nadal (in some fashion), you've also got to accept you were wrong about Djokovic's chances in 2011.

Nole fan
03-13-2012, 01:02 AM
Which events matter? How close does Djokovic have to come to taking no.1? For example, I'm sure you would agree that Nadal was Federer's 'rival' from 2005 to 2007, yet Federer was always well ahead in the points, and Nadal only beat him at 1 of the 4 slams (RG).

I've repeatedly asked you to give a more exact prediction, and your response has been "well it doesn't matter". It doesn't matter which surfaces Djokovic beats Nadal, it doesn't matter when it happens. Now you've finally specified that you predicted that it would be in the "important" events (I guess slams), but how often was Djokovic to beat Nadal? I don't think there is an answer to these questions, because it was never part of your original prediction.

The consequence is that you can be 'right' in a world in which Djokovic continues to dominate Nadal ("I knew Djokovic would challenge Nadal") or in a world in which Djokovic was never able to 'overcome' Nadal, winning at most 1 HC slam off him per season, and coming in at no.2 (he's still the closest rival). And because there's no timeframe, we could be talking about what happens in 2012 or 2015.

This discussion started because (in my interpretation) you wanted to gain some credit for predicting Djokovic's rise in 2011. My point has always been that you never predicted this rise specifically, and played down Djokovic's chances against Nadal, especially on clay and grass (eg. at Wimbledon you sad Djokovic had zero chance of winning). If you want to receive credit for predicting Djokovic would challenge Nadal (in some fashion), you've also got to accept you were wrong about Djokovic's chances in 2011.

I did predict Djokovic's rise in 2011. :shrug:

Singularity
03-13-2012, 01:12 AM
Sure, but you're not Start da Game.

leng jai
03-13-2012, 01:14 AM
Its more like Nole Fan just let it slip that Start Da Ajde is her double account.

Ajde.

Naudio Spanlatine
03-13-2012, 01:23 AM
Why is this a problem im confused?:shrug:

NikolaBGD
03-13-2012, 02:16 AM
For Nadal fans Djokovic was ideal man to made Nadal success even bigger...

No one of them believed that Novak is a real threat for Rafa's career. He was good enough to made matches copetitive, beats Nadal on smaller HC tournaments... Roger was solved, they looked for some talented funny guy who will always speak nice after their god beat him in every big final...

September 2010, NY, last good memory for Nadal fans... they touched a sky, everything was in order, with prospect that it will last another 5-6 years.

Clay death, like SdG talked positive about Novak till 2011...after first loses...hmmm that was fluke streak, HC... fast clay in Madrid, Rome was accident... RG was little break, Rafa will win Wimbledon blahblah... US Open is in Nadal hands...AO will be place where mommentum will change... RG 2012 wil be a last stand...denial, denial, denial...smells like teen spirit.

Novak is better player than Nadal, deal with that...he will lose at some point against him, but overall trend will never change.

Naudio Spanlatine
03-13-2012, 02:21 AM
Well i dont mind Noles success of course, im a super Rafa fan. I think its hard for Rafa fans to believe that this guy was campable of playing this good, Rafa even said that he was very impressed with Nole. I think its time to except the fact that hes number 1 for a reason, he had a fantastic year and he still is a deserving number 1 player.

reery
03-13-2012, 02:21 AM
Nole wasted some years - 2008, 2009 and 2010 and he will certainly regret this in the future, specially since winning slams after 2013 will be difficult for him.

NikolaBGD
03-13-2012, 02:39 AM
Nole wasted some years - 2008, 2009 and 2010 and he will certainly regret this in the future, specially since winning slams after 2013 will be difficult for him.

I dont think so...

Novak will not regret for that years, he was young, immature, above him 2 GOAT... he had a game and talent to win some matches, but it was impossible to reach No.1 at that point. Maybe had a chance to win one more slam, but it will be irrelevant from some time distance.

He already has 5 GS titles in his pocket, it is great achievement, has a chance to reach double digits of slams. Where he was 2 years before?! One slam wonder, without serve, struggle to reach SF of GS...

I admit that I didnt believe that after 2 years he will be undisputed No.1 with 4 more slams...in my wildest dream I never imagine that he will beat Nadal in 7 straight finals, 3 GS finals.

If tommorow he finish his career, he wont have anything for regret:cool:

leng jai
03-13-2012, 02:43 AM
I love how people assume that Nole "wasted" the years when he wasn't winning slams. Seems people here haven't heard of a top player using his earlier years to develop into what they are at their peak.

Ajde.

Alex999
03-13-2012, 03:00 AM
Nole wasted some years - 2008, 2009 and 2010 and he will certainly regret this in the future, specially since winning slams after 2013 will be difficult for him.

what are you talking about man, lol? 5 gs winner. what will he regret? oh boy. someone kill me right now :)

and wtf 2013... not sure why I'm even typing this sh!t

tripwires
03-13-2012, 03:23 AM
Didn't he win his first slam in 2008? What a waste of a perfectly good year.

Naudio Spanlatine
03-13-2012, 03:35 AM
Dude Nole didnt waste a perfect year or years, he was just warming up, he still beat very good players at that time, he just ran into fedal too much thats all but he was just getting started.

allpro
03-13-2012, 03:57 AM
this clip is always good for a laugh
1ywm916KQq8

mickymouse
03-13-2012, 04:34 AM
He's lucky he didn't stick for too long with Todd Martin and have his serve totally ruined. If only Djokovic still has that pre Todd Martin serve, he'd have been an even greater force now.

Start da Game
03-13-2012, 04:51 AM
Which events matter? How close does Djokovic have to come to taking no.1? For example, I'm sure you would agree that Nadal was Federer's 'rival' from 2005 to 2007, yet Federer was always well ahead in the points, and Nadal only beat him at 1 of the 4 slams (RG).

I've repeatedly asked you to give a more exact prediction, and your response has been "well it doesn't matter". It doesn't matter which surfaces Djokovic beats Nadal, it doesn't matter when it happens. Now you've finally specified that you predicted that it would be in the "important" events (I guess slams), but how often was Djokovic to beat Nadal? I don't think there is an answer to these questions, because it was never part of your original prediction.

The consequence is that you can be 'right' in a world in which Djokovic continues to dominate Nadal ("I knew Djokovic would challenge Nadal") or in a world in which Djokovic was never able to 'overcome' Nadal, winning at most 1 HC slam off him per season, and coming in at no.2 (he's still the closest rival). And because there's no timeframe, we could be talking about what happens in 2012 or 2015.

This discussion started because (in my interpretation) you wanted to gain some credit for predicting Djokovic's rise in 2011. My point has always been that you never predicted this rise specifically, and played down Djokovic's chances against Nadal, especially on clay and grass (eg. at Wimbledon you sad Djokovic had zero chance of winning). If you want to receive credit for predicting Djokovic would challenge Nadal (in some fashion), you've also got to accept you were wrong about Djokovic's chances in 2011.

again, you are wrong for expecting specific predictions.....in longterm predictions, the point is not about how many wins or when and where they are scored.....that's an immature take at things......the point is about the challenge.....did i say soderling will rival nadal in the future even when soderling was the one who actually scored a slam win over rafa? no.....i still said djokovic at a time when he was struggling like a dog with all the stamina issues.....

the discussion did not start because i wanted credit for something......the discussion started and still running because you poked your nose in and tried to disprove something which you yourself aren't sure of and are stuck in an endless loop, first by questioning the time frame, then by questioning the matches, then questioning about no.1 ranking......haha what else can you try? and of course you are going to get the ball back as long as you keep throwing it just for the heck of it.....

the point remains that i predicted the trends way back in 2009.....you din't.....you are just trying your best to deny and disprove but it's just ain't happening for you.....

BigJohn
03-13-2012, 05:44 AM
All I can
Say is that
Someone appears to be unable to

Cope with the fact that he's been owned the whole
Length of the discussion.
Of course, it takes a man
With self-respect, perspective on life and a not inflated ego to admit defeat and that one is just
Not man enough.

leng jai
03-13-2012, 05:47 AM
again, you are wrong for expecting specific predictions.....in longterm predictions, the point is not about how many wins or when and where they are scored.....that's an immature take at things......the point is about the challenge.....did i say soderling will rival nadal in the future even when soderling was the one who actually scored a slam win over rafa? no.....i still said djokovic at a time when he was struggling like a dog with all the stamina issues.....

the discussion did not start because i wanted credit for something......the discussion started and still running because you poked your nose in and tried to disprove something which you yourself aren't sure of and are stuck in an endless loop, first by questioning the time frame, then by questioning the matches, then questioning about no.1 ranking......haha what else can you try? and of course you are going to get the ball back as long as you keep throwing it just for the heck of it.....

the point remains that i predicted the trends way back in 2009.....you din't.....you are just trying your best to deny and disprove but it's just ain't happening for you.....

Affirmative General Start Da Ajde.

Ajde.

tripwires
03-13-2012, 05:54 AM
Is anyone still reading SDA's posts in this thread? Seems like a colossal waste of time and the entertainment value is minimal at best.

Kat_YYZ
03-13-2012, 06:00 AM
this clip is always good for a laugh
1ywm916KQq8

:haha:
Nole should've won the Sportsmanship award solely for being able to restrain himself from beating the snot out of Martin.

Alex999
03-13-2012, 01:42 PM
He's lucky he didn't stick for too long with Todd Martin and have his serve totally ruined. If only Djokovic still has that pre Todd Martin serve, he'd have been an even greater force now.

totally agree. I really don't understand why Martin tried to change his serve motion. I remember the AO 08 and how well Novak served. why the hell try to fix something that is not broken is beyond me. big mistake.

Amber Spyglass
03-13-2012, 02:34 PM
:haha:
Nole should've won the Sportsmanship award solely for being able to restrain himself from beating the snot out of Martin.

:rolls: I have never in my life seen Jelena on a practice court before or after this. She was obviously needed to stop Nole coming to blows with Martin :lol:

http://i40.tinypic.com/27x1m9t.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/2pt4c2u.jpg

reery
03-13-2012, 02:38 PM
this clip is always good for a laugh
1ywm916KQq8

Martin.:tape::cuckoo:


Dude Nole didnt waste a perfect year or years, he was just warming up, he still beat very good players at that time, he just ran into fedal too much thats all but he was just getting started.

Those years could make the difference between single digits and double digits at the slams. Winning multiple slams for consecutive years is not as easy as Federer made it look.

Nole fan
03-13-2012, 05:03 PM
I love how people assume that Nole "wasted" the years when he wasn't winning slams. Seems people here haven't heard of a top player using his earlier years to develop into what they are at their peak.

Ajde.

Wow leng jai your infinite wisdom leaves me speechless. I couldn't have said it better myself. :speakles:

Singularity
03-13-2012, 06:02 PM
again, you are wrong for expecting specific predictions.....in longterm predictions, the point is not about how many wins or when and where they are scored
Here are some examples of long term predictions: Murray will win a slam, Djokovic will win Wimbledon, Djokovic will lead Nadal in the H2H. With these predictions you clearly know whether or not they've happened, even if the timeframe or surface isn't specified.

How do you know when a prediction like "Djokovic will challenge/rival Nadal" comes true? Answer: you have to have a debate about what it means to challenge or rival another player. We've had that debate, and your response has been that there is no particular timeframe, no particular surface, and no particular number of matches Djokovic needed to win. Somehow you count that as a victory!

The end result is that the prediction could have come true with Djokovic winning most encounters and most slams, or Nadal winning most encounters and most slams. Even in a world in which Nadal continues his domination after USO 2010 (as you seemed to think would happen) there's still a place for Djokovic as a rival. That's essentially my point.

If you don't make specific predictions, you can't take credit for specific results. If you can accept that, and accept you didn't directly predict what happened in 2011 (at least not on these forums), then we can probably agree.

.....that's an immature take at things......the point is about the challenge.....did i say soderling will rival nadal in the future even when soderling was the one who actually scored a slam win over rafa? no.....i still said djokovic at a time when he was struggling like a dog with all the stamina issues.....
The H2H was 3-1 before RG 2009, and Nadal was clearly far from his best in the match he lost. I take your point, except that Djokovic never faced Nadal in a HC slam before USO 2010, despite leading the H2H on hardcourt, and also reached the semis at the USO for 4 consecutive years before 2011, losing to an in-form Federer 3 times.

I find it a bit strange that you've said the surface doesn't matter, as Djokovic always did well on hard courts vs. Nadal. It's clay and especially grass where he's struggled.

the discussion did not start because i wanted credit for something......the discussion started and still running because you poked your nose in and tried to disprove something which you yourself aren't sure of and are stuck in an endless loop, first by questioning the time frame, then by questioning the matches, then questioning about no.1 ranking......haha what else can you try? and of course you are going to get the ball back as long as you keep throwing it just for the heck of it.....
I asked these questions to find out what you were supposed to have predicted, in light of the 2010 thread you created, prior to Djokovic's 'rise'. In the end we discover that the questions don't have answers, because the original prediction was extremely vague. I'm happy with that position!

the point remains that i predicted the trends way back in 2009.....you din't.....you are just trying your best to deny and disprove but it's just ain't happening for you.....
In general I don't make predictions because I know how easy it is to be wrong. But this isn't about me.

Naudio Spanlatine
03-13-2012, 06:03 PM
Those years could make the difference between single digits and double digits at the slams. Winning multiple slams for consecutive years is not as easy as Federer made it look.

Yes i understand that, but like i told people, he was more of both worlds, he likes to save energy but yet defend for his life on every point. He at that time had the best 2nd serve percentage in the history of tennis. Nole really before was known as a joke to some other serious tennis fans, no one took him seriously even though he wone a slam. People still didnt think that he can challenge Fedal. But he did and he still didnt get credit. It was hard to be Nole at that time because people always ridicule him way too much. Same thing happen when Rafa came into the scene, people always ridicule him because he had a different style of tennis that no one was use to seeing. Even though Fed is like "God" to everyone else, he was the guy who didnt like Rafa and Nole at all because they knew how to beat him and knew what he was capable of doing to him. Fed especially didnt like Nole at all, he didnt want Nole to be talked about at all, basically he didnt want Nole in the conversation with the other legends of this sport.

asmazif
03-13-2012, 06:09 PM
damn you Todd, tampering with that great serve which peaked at Indian Wells 2009.

kplQ8eNxjlA

asmazif
03-13-2012, 06:14 PM
I actually remember at one point around that time a speed-clock in some match recognising a Nole ace as the fastest serve ever, it was like 255 kmp/h or something... but it was definitely definitely broken :lol:

Start da Game
03-13-2012, 07:31 PM
Here are some examples of long term predictions: Murray will win a slam, Djokovic will win Wimbledon, Djokovic will lead Nadal in the H2H. With these predictions you clearly know whether or not they've happened, even if the timeframe or surface isn't specified.

How do you know when a prediction like "Djokovic will challenge/rival Nadal" comes true? Answer: you have to have a debate about what it means to challenge or rival another player. We've had that debate, and your response has been that there is no particular timeframe, no particular surface, and no particular number of matches Djokovic needed to win. Somehow you count that as a victory!

The end result is that the prediction could have come true with Djokovic winning most encounters and most slams, or Nadal winning most encounters and most slams. Even in a world in which Nadal continues his domination after USO 2010 (as you seemed to think would happen) there's still a place for Djokovic as a rival. That's essentially my point.

If you don't make specific predictions, you can't take credit for specific results. If you can accept that, and accept you didn't directly predict what happened in 2011 (at least not on these forums), then we can probably agree.


The H2H was 3-1 before RG 2009, and Nadal was clearly far from his best in the match he lost. I take your point, except that Djokovic never faced Nadal in a HC slam before USO 2010, despite leading the H2H on hardcourt, and also reached the semis at the USO for 4 consecutive years before 2011, losing to an in-form Federer 3 times.

I find it a bit strange that you've said the surface doesn't matter, as Djokovic always did well on hard courts vs. Nadal. It's clay and especially grass where he's struggled.


I asked these questions to find out what you were supposed to have predicted, in light of the 2010 thread you created, prior to Djokovic's 'rise'. In the end we discover that the questions don't have answers, because the original prediction was extremely vague. I'm happy with that position!


In general I don't make predictions because I know how easy it is to be wrong. But this isn't about me.

longterm predictions don't need to be specific, no matter how many times you say otherwise.....when speaking at a high level or broader picture, granular low level things are insignificant.....that's how longterm predictions are made and that's how broader takes exist.....

by saying "djokovic will go on to challenge and rival nadal" or anything along those lines, anyone can easily understand the meaning of it.....the essence and base point is that djokovic was going to become nadal's main rival.....that's all needed to be said.....needless to go into detail because we aren't speaking about one tournament or one match.....

it's not about whether you like predictions or not, it's about someone like you(afraid of making predictions by your own claim) trying to counter someone like me who's got something right.....that's why i pointed out that you haven't predicted anything.....

Looner
03-13-2012, 08:01 PM
Wow leng jai your infinite wisdom leaves me speechless. I couldn't have said it better myself. :speakles:

A rare phenomenon, indeed.

It's funny how some Noletards claim he's wasted earlier years as if everyone is Fed level and can just mature and start spamming multiple slam-winning years.

Singularity
03-15-2012, 12:28 AM
longterm predictions don't need to be specific, no matter how many times you say otherwise.....
They don't need to be specific, but more specific predictions are more impressive than less specific ones. Don't you think?

There are lots of different ways the statement "Djokovic challenges/rivals Nadal" might be 'true', depending on who wins the rivalry and when it happens. Hence it's quite a vague prediction. And when a specific set of events happens, like Djokovic beating Nadal 7 times in a row, you can't really back it up with that prediction, because the prediction wasn't about a particular set of events. Nadal could still be on top and the prediction would still be true.

You are of course free to make vague predictions.

when speaking at a high level or broader picture, granular low level things are insignificant.....that's how longterm predictions are made and that's how broader takes exist.....

Well, you can be specific without specifying what will happen in every event. For example, the statement "Djokovic will stay at number 1 for the next few years" doesn't specify which events he'll win, or who who he'll beat, or how many points he'll have. But the criteria for whether it comes true or not is very simple. It's the same with predictions about number of titles won (even if in a range) or who will lead the H2H.

it's not about whether you like predictions or not, it's about someone like you(afraid of making predictions by your own claim) trying to counter someone like me who's got something right.....that's why i pointed out that you haven't predicted anything.....
It's quite easy to easy to get something right if you make enough predictions. Even if you decide by flipping a coin you'll still be 'right' a lot of the time. But to know how accurate your predictions are, you also have to take into account when you got things wrong.

My opinion is that most people are a lot less accurate than they think they are, because they selectively remember their successes. In this thread you've only recalled your successful predictions, and ignored your unsuccessful ones (even when they were pointed out to you). That paints a certain picture of you.

Start da Game
03-15-2012, 10:56 AM
They don't need to be specific, but more specific predictions are more impressive than less specific ones. Don't you think?

There are lots of different ways the statement "Djokovic challenges/rivals Nadal" might be 'true', depending on who wins the rivalry and when it happens. Hence it's quite a vague prediction. And when a specific set of events happens, like Djokovic beating Nadal 7 times in a row, you can't really back it up with that prediction, because the prediction wasn't about a particular set of events. Nadal could still be on top and the prediction would still be true.

You are of course free to make vague predictions.



Well, you can be specific without specifying what will happen in every event. For example, the statement "Djokovic will stay at number 1 for the next few years" doesn't specify which events he'll win, or who who he'll beat, or how many points he'll have. But the criteria for whether it comes true or not is very simple. It's the same with predictions about number of titles won (even if in a range) or who will lead the H2H.


It's quite easy to easy to get something right if you make enough predictions. Even if you decide by flipping a coin you'll still be 'right' a lot of the time. But to know how accurate your predictions are, you also have to take into account when you got things wrong.

My opinion is that most people are a lot less accurate than they think they are, because they selectively remember their successes. In this thread you've only recalled your successful predictions, and ignored your unsuccessful ones (even when they were pointed out to you). That paints a certain picture of you.

the point is not about whether the prediction was impressive or not......it was about right or not......it was right.....the question about specificness shouldn't even arise because the prediction was a long term one......

it's not about if nadal was still on top, whether my prediction would be right or wrong......it's about ultimately whether i got it right or not......try to get the difference and learn more about long term predictions......i din't say soderling or berdych would go onto rival nadal.....

djokovic becoming no.1 or djokovic setting up 20-0 against nadal is not the point.....that's where you have been going wrong since the start of this thread......the point is about his challenge and becoming nadal's main rival.....now how he accomplishes that was irrelevant because it was long term prediction......

and no that is not a vague prediction.....i clearly stated who was going to challenge and become nadal's main rival......

recollecting my right predictions is my wish, i will do.....it's your headache if you can't stomach them......