Nadal`s genius on the battlefield : analysis [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Nadal`s genius on the battlefield : analysis

Clay Death
06-08-2010, 02:40 AM
he has lost 6 matches on clay in the last 6 years. his dominance is likely to continue on clay for at least 3 more years if he can stay healthy and relatively fit. he is the fastest to 7 majors. he has 18 masters shields and he snatched them before his 24th birthday. that has never been done before. and so on.

here is why he dominates on clay and damn near everywhere else when he is healthy and fit:

1. topspin cyclones of death that never end. his sky high margins allow him to enjoy ridiculous consistency that is unparalleled on the tour.

2. movement. some of his amazing speed is gone but he still moves like a cat on the court. he is still the best mover on the planet.

3. relentless will. this is perhaps the most important variable for his domination. he wills himself matches on the grandest of stages time and again. the guy is a big game hunter.

4. drive. he is driven like some of the other all time greats: connors, johhny mac, borg, lendl, vilas, muster, sampras, and fed. these guys never knew the meaning of the word "quit". i would put him in the same class as muster. it seems that, at times, nothing is going to stop nadal from taking whatever the hell he rests his eyes on.


and now the big question: if you could devise a game to stop him on clay, what would that game be? what tactics would work? can he actually be stopped if he is healthy and fit on clay in a best of 5 sets foremat?

the floor is yours. have at it. all thoughts and comments are welcome.

Ibracadabra
06-08-2010, 02:44 AM
Del potro will end it next season.

Action Jackson
06-08-2010, 02:46 AM
Stop it, we have a thread on this.

andy neyer
06-08-2010, 02:47 AM
He's the best and happens to be miles above the rest of the circuit on clay.

As most have pointed out, the only conceivable game plan would be to execute high-risk game playing flat, hard and deep to the angles (if possible taking the ball early, on the rise) and hope that you're in one of those bright days in which your shots go in. If a decent player does that, he might have a shot at beating Rafa on clay, albeit a small one.

Like the poster above, I also think Del Potro probably has the best opportunity given the way he plays.

Elbarto
06-08-2010, 02:54 AM
Del Potro is the best candidate to stop Nadal on clay, agressive game, huge forehand, strong mental, excellent backhand and big serve are the solution against Nadal on clay

careergrandslam
06-08-2010, 02:55 AM
what is nadal's current 5-set record on clay?

careergrandslam
06-08-2010, 02:57 AM
Del Potro is the best candidate to stop Nadal on clay, agressive game, huge forehand, strong mental, excellent backhand and big serve are the solution against Nadal on clay

isnt that what soderling has?
and he got taken to school in the final.

a fit and healthy nadal is a tough nut to crack.
his defensive skills are extraordinary even for big hitters to penetrate.

Clay Death
06-08-2010, 03:00 AM
what is nadal's current 5-set record on clay?

something like 55-1.

he would not have lost last year if it was not for his own madness and stupidity.

1. he needed to skip his match against djokovic in madrid. he told his team that he was in tremendous pain and he went out and played a 4+ hours match with djokovic.

2. he should have walked away from his match against d-pot in miami. his team was extremely worried about him. he was having a lot of knee issues and was in grea deal of pain. so he goes out and play anyway.

3. he should have skipped rotterdam in 2009.

Clay Death
06-08-2010, 03:01 AM
Stop it, we have a thread on this.

is that the extent of your contribution?

i expect more from you old friend.

now lets have your views. can you devise a way to stop nadal on clay?

Mimi
06-08-2010, 03:02 AM
:bowdown::bowdown::yippee::yippee:

Jills
06-08-2010, 03:04 AM
Robin's gameplan yesterday + more confidence - the bad serving - the over-hitting on important points + actual conversion of break point opportunities = a way to beat Rafa.

Hopefully Delpo can do a better job next year.

Anyway, I'm sick of all these Rafa clay posts. Clay season is finally over, so let's all move on and wait until next season to suffer through it again.

Clay Death
06-08-2010, 03:04 AM
mimi i take it that you apporve of this thread and the important question that is being asked.

Action Jackson
06-08-2010, 03:05 AM
is that the extent of your contribution?

i expect more from you old friend.

now lets have your views. can you devise a way to stop nadal on clay?

Read the 2 other threads that have discussed this issue to death.

Clay Death
06-08-2010, 03:05 AM
Robin's gameplan yesterday + more confidence - the bad serving - the over-hitting on important points + actual conversion of break point opportunities = a way to beat Rafa.

Hopefully Delpo can do a better job next year.

Anyway, I'm sick of all these Rafa clay posts. Clay season is finally over, so let's all move on and wait until next season to suffer through it again.




http://i812.photobucket.com/albums/zz47/claydeath/487.gif

Fiberlight1
06-08-2010, 03:06 AM
The only solution?

Take it like a man.

Elbarto
06-08-2010, 03:06 AM
isnt that what soderling has?
and he got taken to school in the final.

a fit and healthy nadal is a tough nut to crack.
his defensive skills are extraordinary even for big hitters to penetrate.

Soderling seems to have the same game style but he is not a perfect clone of Del Potro,

Soderling doesn't have the same footwork than Del Potro ( Soderling seems slower ), not the same mental and combativity,

Del Potro has better defense capabilities, he is more versatile than Soderling

Clay Death
06-08-2010, 03:08 AM
Read the 2 other threads that have discussed this issue to death.

so what are we to do old sport? would you feel better if we talked about underwater chess?

can you offer any new ideas?


this is tennis man. and this is the question that is being asked over again this year all over the tennis world.


and finally always remember this: life is an offensive directed at the repititious mechanisms of the universe.

Clay Death
06-08-2010, 03:09 AM
The only solution?

Take it like a man.




http://i812.photobucket.com/albums/zz47/claydeath/487.gif

Action Jackson
06-08-2010, 03:26 AM
so what are we to do old sport? would you feel better if we talked about underwater chess?

can you offer any new ideas?


this is tennis man. and this is the question that is being asked over again this year all over the tennis world.


and finally always remember this: life is an offensive directed at the repititious mechanisms of the universe.

Nadal has been dominant on clay for years and you think you are actually something new and fresh? Come on don't give me that, this question has been asked many times before and there are very few who are capable of doing it, and even less so executing a plan in achieving the outcome.

How to beat Nadal on clay that asks exactly the same question, so this is a just a thread to get on the soapbox when we have one already that addresses it.

Priam
06-08-2010, 03:30 AM
Anyone has a chance.

allpro
06-08-2010, 03:33 AM
Perhaps someday he can be cloned :shrug: ...........

other than that, he'll just continue to turn his adversaries into walking vaginas.

careergrandslam
06-08-2010, 03:34 AM
something like 55-1.

i thought it was 57-1 or 58-1?

remember to count davis cup matches on clay aswell.

careergrandslam
06-08-2010, 03:41 AM
Perhaps someday he can be cloned :shrug: ...........

other than that, he'll just continue to turn his adversaries into walking vaginas.

:haha:

the next clay GOAT will be when rafa and xisca have a baby boy/s.
when little baby rafas running around eager to learn from their clay court genius daddy.

Mimi
06-08-2010, 04:08 AM
mimi i take it that you apporve of this thread and the important question that is being asked.

yes, but sorry my dear friend, i have poor tennis knowledge, so i can't answer:p

RafaTheBest
06-08-2010, 04:13 AM
Robin's gameplan yesterday + more confidence - the bad serving - the over-hitting on important points + actual conversion of break point opportunities = a way to beat Rafa.

Hopefully Delpo can do a better job next year.

Anyway, I'm sick of all these Rafa clay posts. Clay season is finally over, so let's all move on and wait until next season to suffer through it again.

So basically had Soderling done everything he did wrong better he would have won. Great analysis, this.

paseo
06-08-2010, 04:24 AM
I think the best gameplan against Nadal, you all might laugh at this, is the one that Fed uses. If Fed can cut down his UEs, and bring his balls instead of wearing a skirt against Nadal, he's got the best game AND gameplan to beat Nadal.

General Suburbia
06-08-2010, 04:43 AM
I think the thing that most people overlook about Rafa's game is his intelligence on court. He actually thinks very clearly out there, no matter how much some haters would like to think otherwise.

careergrandslam
06-08-2010, 05:12 AM
I think the thing that most people overlook about Rafa's game is his intelligence on court. He actually thinks very clearly out there, no matter how much some haters would like to think otherwise.

totally agree.

rafa is a very intelligent match player, even under pressure he thinks clearly.
he just has the awareness of the situation and jist knows what to do at the right time.

of course the haters will come and say he doesnt have a brain.

but nadal is a clever guy, even in interviews he knows how to respond to provocative questions and to answer in a calm and clever way.

rafa is what u call street smart.

@Sweet Cleopatra
06-08-2010, 05:14 AM
if you could devise a game to stop him on clay, what would that game be? what tactics would work? can he actually be stopped if he is healthy and fit on clay in a best of 5 sets foremat?

the floor is yours. have at it. all thoughts and comments are welcome.

I will try to do my best, fight for every ball and never lose hope.

Vida
06-08-2010, 08:19 AM
at RG, if nadal plays his optimum best it cant be done and it no secret cause - it hasnt been done.

a player would have to match him in grit and ground game and that guy doesnt exist.

Forehander
06-08-2010, 08:28 AM
I bursted out laughing for some reason as soon as I got to the "cyclone of death" part. And yes I believe if it was bringing back into the olden days Nadal would have been one hell of a warrior on a REAL battlefield with swords and bows. He would be one hell of a formidable foe to take on, you can easily picture him as a legendary hero recorded in the history books, amongst the greats such as Alexander the Great and Genghis Khan. He'd be a warrior but I don't think he suits to be a general though.

As to how Nadal can be beaten on the clay battlefield with a tennis racquet... To be honest I don't believe there is a set way anymore. All you can do is stay with him and use whatever firepower you have. Slice on the clay? Cyclone of Death. High ball rally on the clay? You can't out rally the Cyclone of Death. Hit it to his backhand on the clay? The man is ambidextrous and has an incredibly fast backswing even on open stance. Smash the shit out of the ball? Extremely hard to sustain and Nadal is getting better and better in turning defense into offense. Then of course there's his insane footwork.

On other surfaces yes weakness can be more easily exposed, but not on clay. His movement may not be as good as it use to be, but his backhand has definitely improved dramatically. Back then the problem was whenever enemies hit it down the line to his backhand he would often hit a high top spin ball, which would allow the opponent to get back into the rallies and offer them a chance to spank a hard flat forehand to the Nadal forehand. Now though, instead of hitting high top spin all the time, he's now driving it pretty darn hard and deep. This is the ultimate Nadal I foresaw would become back when I first saw him in 2004. Nadal has a game which allows for unparalleled room for improvement. The fact that his is ambidextrous, is the reason why he is known for being "the man with 2 forehands". I honestly think it's the biggest tub of shit when he says his right hand tennis is horrible.

Like Federer on all other surfaces, to beat him you can only take your chances and continuously play high risk tennis. There is no set way to play them because whenever you think you've came up with the right answer he'll throw in another question for you. This is the reason why Nadal and Federer have dominated the field like no other, because they are the master of taking chances.

Action Jackson
06-08-2010, 08:53 AM
I think the thing that most people overlook about Rafa's game is his intelligence on court. He actually thinks very clearly out there, no matter how much some haters would like to think otherwise.

Not really overlooked, he knows how to play on clay and not just defend for the sake of defending.

Not hard to be deemed a hater here.

jonas
06-08-2010, 09:08 AM
he has lost 6 matches on clay in the last 6 years. his dominance is likely to continue on clay for at least 3 more years if he can stay healthy and relatively fit. he is the fastest to 7 majors. he has 18 masters shields and he snatched them before his 24th birthday. that has never been done before. and so on.

Nope. Borg had just turned 23 when he won his 7th GS (FO 1979).

He won his 10th GS when he had just turned 24 (Wimby 1980).

swann
06-08-2010, 09:29 AM
Nadal has been dominant on clay for years and you think you are actually something new and fresh? Come on don't give me that, this question has been asked many times before and there are very few who are capable of doing it, and even less so executing a plan in achieving the outcome.


Yeah, I remember that 2-3 years ago everyone kept asking this question; the answer at that time was "come to the net as often as you can, use sharp angles etc"; after last year's defeat to Soderling, the solution seemed to be "flat hitting, great power, ball bashing"; during Sunday's final, the commentators, seeing Soderling's incapacity, revised the "come-to-the-net" idea :).

heya
06-08-2010, 09:48 AM
Soderling watched Federer
so often that he learned nothing about net rushing.
Probably he deduced that volleying equaled lunging & slapping the ball into the net.

heya
06-08-2010, 09:50 AM
Nope. Borg had just turned 23 when he won his 7th GS (FO 1979)
Some 'fans' are truly bandwagon jumpers.

JolánGagó
06-08-2010, 10:37 AM
I think the thing that most people overlook about Rafa's game is his intelligence on court. He actually thinks very clearly out there, no matter how much some haters would like to think otherwise.

This.

lazybear
06-08-2010, 11:01 AM
Nadal is one the best point constructors we have in todays tennis. He almost always finds the best possible solution, even under pressure, i actually think that's his best weapon as a tennis player. And one more thing, when you watch him play defense... It's really not all about the speed, it's important obviously, but speed alone, wouldn't be enough. It's a combination of anticipation and body control. First, he's the best anticipator in the game. Second, the way he can "jump into" balls, and still able to control them with pace, is really nothing like this sport has ever seen. It's tremendous body control. I don't like his game, at all, but he's a unique tennis player.

Clay Death
06-08-2010, 09:38 PM
Nope. Borg had just turned 23 when he won his 7th GS (FO 1979).

He won his 10th GS when he had just turned 24 (Wimby 1980).



i see. i would have to stand corrected then.


somebody double check on this.

Clay Death
06-08-2010, 09:47 PM
at RG, if nadal plays his optimum best it cant be done and it no secret cause - it hasnt been done.

a player would have to match him in grit and ground game and that guy doesnt exist.

that is the conclusion i am rapidly arriving at as well.

about all you can do is play very high risk tennis and that is the kiss of death against the clay warrior. you cannot hit enough winners against him in a 5 set match to be able to come out on top.

he will just target the critical points.

fed even said something about this: he said that he (fed) has to take all the risk on clay against him. that strategy has netted fed 4 devastating losses against the clay warrior at roland garros.

Vida
06-08-2010, 11:24 PM
that is the conclusion i am rapidly arriving at as well.

about all you can do is play very high risk tennis and that is the kiss of death against the clay warrior. you cannot hit enough winners against him in a 5 set match to be able to come out on top.

he will just target the critical points.

fed even said something about this: he said that he (fed) has to take all the risk on clay against him. that strategy has netted fed 4 devastating losses against the clay warrior at roland garros.

exactly. it is miraculous even, that federer has bounced back so well after the ruins he was put at in RG 08 final.

they say he was 'humbled' or 'exposed', but I feel those are wrong words to describe what happened on that day.

Clay Death
06-09-2010, 12:00 AM
exactly. it is miraculous even, that federer has bounced back so well after the ruins he was put at in RG 08 final.

they say he was 'humbled' or 'exposed', but I feel those are wrong words to describe what happened on that day.



there is no question about it vida. this guy has the gift. i dont see anybody stopping him now at roland garros. 2-3 additional french opens are pretty much happening. it is just that simple. he will walk away with 7-8 roland garros titles and that record will never be touched, let alone broken.

he really is unbeatable in a best of 5 sets foremat if he is healthy and reasonably fit. he had additional gears against soderling in the final but he never needed them.

the best hope anybody has is to get him in a best of 3 sets foremat on clay.

gusavo
06-16-2010, 03:17 PM
at RG, if nadal plays his optimum best it cant be done and it no secret cause - it hasnt been done.
thats hilarious

he had additional gears against soderling in the final but he never needed them.
lol, proof?