Why Spaniards `peak at a young age`[Rafa, Moya, Bruguera]? whats up with JCF? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Why Spaniards `peak at a young age`[Rafa, Moya, Bruguera]? whats up with JCF?

CmonAussie
02-15-2010, 06:08 AM
...
...
Spanish tennis players seems to have a history of burning out at a young age:

Nadal`s peak: 2005-08 [aged 19-22 yrs]:sad:
JCF`s peak 2000-03 [aged 19-22 yrs]
Moya`s peak 1997-98 [aged 20-21 yrs]
Corretja`s peak 1997-98 [aged 23-24 yrs]
Bruguera`s peak 1993-94 [aged 22-23 yrs]
Bersasategui`s peak 1994 [aged 21 yrs]



<<<>>>
What a bizarre case JCF is::
World #1 & FO champion @ 23 yrs, then no titles for 6 years, then 3 titles out of the blue at age 30..!!
Did he just waste 6 years of his life..??
<<<>>>


13 September 1999 Majorca, Spain Clay Àlex Corretja
...2000 - No Titles...
4 February 2001 Dubai, UAE Hard Marat Safin
9 April 2001 Estoril, Portugal Clay Felix Mantilla
23 April 2001 Barcelona, Spain Clay Carlos Moyà
7 May 2001 Rome, Italy Clay Gustavo Kuerten
15 April 2002 Monte Carlo, Monaco Clay Carlos Moyà
23 September 2002 Hong Kong, China Hard
14 April 2003 Monte Carlo, Monaco (2) Clay
28 April 2003 Valencia, Spain Clay
26 May 2003 French Open, Paris, France Clay
13 October 2003 Madrid, Spain Hard (i)
...2004 - No Titles...
...2005 - No Titles...
...2006 - No Titles...
...2007 - No Titles...
...2008 - No Titles...
12 April 2009 Casablanca, Morocco Clay
14 February 2010 Costa do Sauípe, Brazil Clay
21 February 2010 Buenos Aires, Argentina Clay

<<>>
The trend is not limited to Spanish tennis players ~ also Spain`s most famous golfers have all burnt out early:eek:

Ballesteros` peak 1979-84 [aged 22-27 yrs]
Olazabel`s peak 1990-94 [aged 24-28 yrs]
Garcia`s peak 1999-07 [aged 19-27yrs]

****
Why do the Spanish burn out so early:confused:
Something in the paella:eek:

I R Baboon
02-15-2010, 06:39 AM
Cocaine is a hell of a drug

fsoica
02-15-2010, 06:50 AM
nadal's peak is not over yet...he will make a lot of haters cry during this season...

Commander Data
02-15-2010, 07:22 AM
To early to say if Nadal is past his peak.

Maybe lot of Spaniards have a physically demanding game tailered for clay, which puts additional stress on their body?

TennisLurker
02-15-2010, 07:22 AM
I don't think Moya belongs to the list.
Moya had an injury, and once recovered his level, he remained a top player from 2002 to till middle 2005. As late as 2008 he was a top 20 player. When you consider that he made the 1997 Australian Open final, that is a very long career performing at a very high level.

Ferrero had chicken pox in early 2004 and never recovered. He wento from consistent top 3 player to being a top 30 floater.

Kolya
02-15-2010, 07:57 AM
Spanish women.

paseo
02-15-2010, 11:09 AM
Robredo is still going strong. And don't forget about "The Future".

Jelena
02-15-2010, 11:56 AM
I don't think Moya belongs to the list.
Moya had an injury, and once recovered his level, he remained a top player from 2002 to till middle 2005. As late as 2008 he was a top 20 player. When you consider that he made the 1997 Australian Open final, that is a very long career performing at a very high level.

Ferrero had chicken pox in early 2004 and never recovered. He wento from consistent top 3 player to being a top 30 floater.
I agree.

TheBoiledEgg
02-15-2010, 02:12 PM
Robredo is still going strong. And don't forget about "The Future".

what peak

Byrd
02-15-2010, 02:23 PM
They get too much ass.

claudine140
02-15-2010, 03:03 PM
I don't think Moya belongs to the list.
Moya had an injury, and once recovered his level, he remained a top player from 2002 to till middle 2005. As late as 2008 he was a top 20 player. When you consider that he made the 1997 Australian Open final, that is a very long career performing at a very high level.

Ferrero had chicken pox in early 2004 and never recovered. He wento from consistent top 3 player to being a top 30 floater.
indeed Moya has a very long career

after every serious injury he came back and won some tournements and came back in the top 20, even top 10.
Now his last injury, hip, he has the motivation of playing again and win some matches, but i think he is now 33 years, I think he will not have big results, but that is not due his motivation, but due his age and so

SetSampras
02-15-2010, 03:05 PM
Well look at how alot of them play.. The run around like a bunch of a orangutans to win points.

Persimmon
02-15-2010, 03:11 PM
Well look at how alot of them play.. The run around like a bunch of a orangutans to win points.

And they traditionally only win the FO. In the Open era Spanish men had only won the FO and Orantes who won the USO when it was played on har-tru clay. So looks like Nadal overachieved by being the only Spanish male to win slams outside of clay/har-tru clay in the Open era :eek:

SetSampras
02-15-2010, 03:15 PM
And they traditionally only win the FO. In the Open era Spanish men had only won the FO and Orantes who won the USO when it was played on har-tru clay. So looks like Nadal overachieved by being the only Spanish male to win slams outside of clay/har-tru clay in the Open era :eek:

Nadal definitely overachieved for sure. Any other era IMO he would do nothing except rack up French Open titles. No luxury of slow wimbleon anymore, serve volley attackers now to deal with, and doesnt have the racket technology. Yep he would have been screwed

Persimmon
02-15-2010, 03:31 PM
If Nadal wins 1 more slam, he will have as many slams as all the Spanish male players have won combined before him in the Open era. Talk about overachieving.

madmax
02-15-2010, 03:31 PM
too much running is bad for their knees it seems

Everko
02-15-2010, 03:34 PM
Because Spanish tennis at the junior level is the hardest in the world. They really push themselves when they are young.

DrJules
02-15-2010, 05:24 PM
Well look at how alot of them play.. The run around like a bunch of a orangutans to win points.

Sorry could not resist:

Chimpras fan likens Spanish tennis players to Orangutans.:rolls::rolls::rolls:

SetSampras
02-15-2010, 05:31 PM
In all seriousness its pretty easy to understand. Most of them do not develop a style of play that is going to benefit them of having the longevity factor. Most never developed big serves and had the ability to put points away quickly. Nadal finally developed at least somewhat of a dictation type of game from the baseline (Especially off the BH) in which he wouldnt be running around like a chicken with his head cut off and put every effort possible just to win some easy points off his serve etc. In that he is overrated. Someone with his style of game its pretty amazing he was able to win 3 of the 4 slams. Now if he could have been smarter with scheduling and with the style of play earlier on, he may have actually had a nice long career with many more great feats. But the damage was done. Hes 23 but yet has been burnt to a crisp and constantly injured. Something a 29-30 year old player should be going through.


Its not hard to see why Federer or Sampras had such longevity of winning for instance. And its not hard to see why Nadal is on the fast track to being washed up before 25 years of age. If you have been playing the way he has from 17-23 years old he put millions of more miles on the those knees than Fed has.. Fed can dictate from the baseline and he has the serve to get him out of trouble. Just having those two things increases your longevity tenfold. But of you course you have to have the other aspects of the game

Quakes
02-15-2010, 05:47 PM
Because Spanish tennis at the junior level is the hardest in the world. They really push themselves when they are young.

Yep. Swiss junior tennis, for example, is a cakewalk by comparison. Hingis was junior champion was she was 9 or something. Dunno if it was a good thing.

Mateya
02-15-2010, 08:16 PM
Just have to agree and say that Moya didn't peak in 1998, he had a marvelous carrer until 2007 or so. :worship:
Similar to PHM, who had two peaks but was injured between them.

He had the longest carrer of spanish players I think...he played until 32, no? Maybe because his game was not so typical spanish and more hard-court agressive style, which made him last longer.

I think it's clear that it pays dividends and is a long term benefit if you play more agressive and go for your favourite shots instead of grinding six meters behind the baseline for your entire carrer. :)

Har-Tru
02-15-2010, 10:55 PM
Too much sex.

Everko
02-15-2010, 11:06 PM
Yep. Swiss junior tennis, for example, is a cakewalk by comparison. Hingis was junior champion was she was 9 or something. Dunno if it was a good thing.

There is a reason that everyone goes to Spain as a junior to practice. They have to put in the hard work from day 1 of their tennis playing lives.

MacTheKnife
02-15-2010, 11:42 PM
Too much sex.

:haha:

Arkulari
02-16-2010, 12:33 AM
Too much sex.

+1

don't we know it? :aplot:

ChinoRios4Ever
02-16-2010, 01:19 AM
Don't agree on Moya, Corretja had a good years in 2000-01, you missed Costa in the list who picked late in his carrer and won RG in 02. Nadal is not over yet... i hope :o

Too much sex.

Too big.

BigJohn
02-16-2010, 01:25 AM
Too big.

Try topping next time. And work on suppressing that gag reflex too.

Ilovetheblues_86
02-16-2010, 01:53 AM
Carlos Boluda will be in the top 5 4 years ina row and will be the new Davydenko and will crush this thesis.

Jimnik
02-16-2010, 02:29 AM
Two Spaniards won titles last week aged 26 and 30. :shrug:

Federerhingis
02-16-2010, 04:41 AM
In all seriousness its pretty easy to understand. Most of them do not develop a style of play that is going to benefit them of having the longevity factor. Most never developed big serves and had the ability to put points away quickly. Nadal finally developed at least somewhat of a dictation type of game from the baseline (Especially off the BH) in which he wouldnt be running around like a chicken with his head cut off and put every effort possible just to win some easy points off his serve etc. In that he is overrated. Someone with his style of game its pretty amazing he was able to win 3 of the 4 slams. Now if he could have been smarter with scheduling and with the style of play earlier on, he may have actually had a nice long career with many more great feats. But the damage was done. Hes 23 but yet has been burnt to a crisp and constantly injured. Something a 29-30 year old player should be going through.


Its not hard to see why Federer or Sampras had such longevity of winning for instance. And its not hard to see why Nadal is on the fast track to being washed up before 25 years of age. If you have been playing the way he has from 17-23 years old he put millions of more miles on the those knees than Fed has.. Fed can dictate from the baseline and he has the serve to get him out of trouble. Just having those two things increases your longevity tenfold. But of you course you have to have the other aspects of the game

I did not really bother to read the entire two paragraphs but I got the gist of it from the first couple of sentences and I agree. I don't know if it had anything to do with the nationality, more likely with styles of play, when you have such physical styles of play; your body can only hold up to those grinding standards but for so long. Nadal also has to move a much more muscular and heavy body on-court and therefore he has to expend a lot more energy.

CmonAussie
02-16-2010, 05:44 AM
Just have to agree and say that Moya didn't peak in 1998, he had a marvelous carrer until 2007 or so. :worship:
Similar to PHM, who had two peaks but was injured between them.

He had the longest carrer of spanish players I think...he played until 32, no? Maybe because his game was not so typical spanish and more hard-court agressive style, which made him last longer.

I think it's clear that it pays dividends and is a long term benefit if you play more agressive and go for your favourite shots instead of grinding six meters behind the baseline for your entire carrer. :)

:wavey:
Everyone seems to be on my case about MOYA, but the fact is that he did peak in 1997-98..!:eek: Yes its true that he had a resurgence in 2002 & 2003 by winning a couple of Masters, but at the Slams he wasn`t a factor anymore:sad: In 1997 he got to the AO final, then in 1998 he won FO and reached USO SFs [and briefly got to #1],, but since then he never again got within in sniff of a Slam. The best he could manage was a couple of QFs at FO, where he got demolished by Coria:eek:

Del_Toro
02-16-2010, 10:08 AM
Moya burnt out? :rolleyes:

thrust
02-16-2010, 01:35 PM
When is the last time an American, British, French or German player won ANY slam? Whatever the longevity issue, the Spanish have been more successful the last 10years than anyone except Roger Federer.

Har-Tru
02-16-2010, 02:03 PM
Two Spaniards won titles last week aged 26 and 30. :shrug:

And last week another one aged 29.

When is the last time an American, British, French or German player won ANY slam? Whatever the longevity issue, the Spanish have been more successful the last 10years than anyone except Roger Federer.

Talk about missing the point.

Vaskalainen
02-16-2010, 02:11 PM
...
...
Spanish tennis players seems to have a history of burning out at a young age:

Nadal`s peak: 2005-08 [aged 19-22 yrs]:sad:
JCF`s peak 2000-03 [aged 19-22 yrs]
Moya`s peak 1997-98 [aged 20-21 yrs]
Corretja`s peak 1997-98 [aged 23-24 yrs]
Bruguera`s peak 1993-94 [aged 22-23 yrs]
Bersasategui`s peak 1994 [aged 21 yrs]


<<>>
The trend is not limited to Spanish tennis players ~ also Spain`s most famous golfers have all burnt out early:eek:

Ballesteros` peak 1979-84 [aged 22-27 yrs]
Olazabel`s peak 1990-94 [aged 24-28 yrs]
Garcia`s peak 1999-07 [aged 19-27yrs]

****
Why do the Spanish burn out so early:confused:
Something in the paella:eek:

Playing tennis from the baseline and Banging Australian MILFS is not an easy job but someone gotta do it...:wavey:

Ibracadabra
02-16-2010, 02:55 PM
Hard to find a claycourter who peaks into their late 20, when simple logic states you are fitter when you are younger.

Ububub
02-16-2010, 03:17 PM
Nadal has not burnt out. He's just taking a break from winning.

Greatest reply - ever!

FiBeR
02-16-2010, 03:53 PM
When is the last time an American, British, French or German player won ANY slam? Whatever the longevity issue, the Spanish have been more successful the last 10years than anyone except Roger Federer.

2009 US OPEN :wavey:

JMDP is american.. as federer is european

JolánGagó
02-16-2010, 05:58 PM
2009 US OPEN :wavey:

JMDP is american.. as federer is european


Your little, albeit protracted, terminological crusade means shit in this forum. No matter what Latin Americans feel about the English term "American", fact is it is applied by the rest of the world to people from the United States of America, and no amount of argento hissy fits will change that reality.

For the rest, this thread is utter BS.

SetSampras
02-16-2010, 06:47 PM
http://i45.tinypic.com/f56eu0.jpg

connectolove
02-16-2010, 08:08 PM
nadal's peak is not over yet...he will make a lot of haters cry during this season...

I agree with you. Nadal is FAR from over. We will have him for a long time and #1.

connectolove
02-16-2010, 08:12 PM
Your little, albeit protracted, terminological crusade means shit in this forum. No matter what Latin Americans feel about the English term "American", fact is it is applied by the rest of the world to people from the United States of America, and no amount of argento hissy fits will change that reality.

For the rest, this thread is utter BS.

In the "US" world Americans can only be from the US, BULLSH*T! In the rest of the world, I mean THE REAL WORLD: America is a continent, south and north, wether you like it or not, and it includes all countries from Canada to Argentina. so a person from Argentina, has been , is and will be an AMERICAN as well...

dylan24
02-16-2010, 08:36 PM
they are grinders.
nothing more.

BigJohn
02-16-2010, 08:48 PM
I agree with you. Nadal is FAR from over. We will have him for a long time and #1.

We know, we know. RAFAwonCYGS after all...

Sunset of Age
02-17-2010, 02:37 AM
Sorry, OP, but Nadal is far from done, and the other two players you mention have recently shown to be the exact opposite of what you claim them to be.
I can't conclude otherwise than that your thread is a major failure. No insult intended whatsoever, but still... :wavey:

CmonAussie
02-17-2010, 05:56 AM
Sorry, OP, but Nadal is far from done, and the other two players you mention have recently shown to be the exact opposite of what you claim them to be.
I can't conclude otherwise than that your thread is a major failure. No insult intended whatsoever, but still... :wavey:

:rolleyes::rolleyes:
mm another one in denial:p
...
Both Moya & JCF are Slam champions and former #1 players, but no matter if they`re still on the circuit and winning the odd MM title [JCF has won just 2 MMs since 2003:eek:]~~ look at the facts man!
Moya`s last Slam SF was @ 1998 USO [Moya was aged 21yrs]!
JCF`s last Slam SF was @ 2004 AO [JCF was aged 22yrs]!
...
So beyond the age of 22yrs neither Moya nor JCF were factors at all in the Slams,, just deal with the facts;)

Mateya
02-17-2010, 08:08 AM
Who cares about being a factor at a slam ?

Let's say I spectacularly win Roland Garros ranked No.85 and do nothing special this year.
Three years later (2013) I win five titles, including some masters series events, reach SF of Roland Garros and brake into top 10.

Did I peak in 2010 or 2013? :confused:
Winning a slam is not everything that matters, at least for me.

MariaV
02-17-2010, 08:16 AM
As JCF just showed he can still win a MM toruney on a South-American swing, don't worry, Rafa should be able to do that too. :D

CmonAussie
02-17-2010, 08:48 AM
Who cares about being a factor at a slam ?

Let's say I spectacularly win Roland Garros ranked No.85 and do nothing special this year.
Three years later (2013) I win five titles, including some masters series events, reach SF of Roland Garros and brake into top 10.

Did I peak in 2010 or 2013? :confused:
Winning a slam is not everything that matters, at least for me.

"Who cares about...(slams)" ~is that what you`re saying:eek::confused:
...
Take a closer look at JCF`s Slam Results:

Australian Open A A A 3R 2R A QF SF 3R 3R 2R 4R 1R 1R
French Open A A LQ SF SF F W 2R 3R 3R 3R 1R 2R
Wimbledon A A A A 3R 2R 4R 3R 4R 3R QF 2R QF
US Open A A 1R 4R 3R 3R F 2R 1R 2R 1R A 4R
>>
>>
JCF got to the SFs or better at FO 4 years in a row [2000--2003], then never again:eek:
Also the USO finals in 2003, and AO SFs in 2004 >> but never another SF since!

If you look at JCF`s Masters results its also clear that he peaked then [winning all 4 of his Masters Titles up to 2003]!
Winner 2001 Rome Clay
Winner 2002 Monte Carlo Clay
Winner 2003 Monte Carlo (2) Clay
Winner 2003 Madrid Hard (i)

So as i said already he peaked in 2002-03..

MatchFederer
02-17-2010, 08:54 AM
Good thread.

There seems to be a semantic issue here, namely some sort of applied intrinsic value to the terms 'burned out' and 'peaked/peak/prime'.

Perhaps a further elaboration would allow the points in this thread to be more easily understood, especially with an angle towards looking at the shades between black and white, retrospectively. Also one could throw in some non Spanish names as a point of reference and then describe the extent of relativity and commonality.

CmonAussie
02-17-2010, 09:00 AM
Good thread.

There seems to be a semantic issue here, namely some sort of applied intrinsic value to the terms 'burned out' and 'peaked/peak/prime'.

Perhaps a further elaboration would allow the points in this thread to be more easily understood, especially with an angle towards looking at the shades between black and white, retrospectively. Also one could throw in some non Spanish names as a point of reference and then describe the extent of relativity and commonality.

:wavey:
Thanks ArcadianA,
Good point~ i will change the thread title to make the point less ambiguous:cool:

CmonAussie
02-18-2010, 12:50 AM
...
...
The exception to this might be Verdasco & Lopez!
Verdasco seems like his peak is still ahead of him, but that might be partly because he underperformed dramatically over the last 6-8 years~ considering his talent [atleast equal to Nadal, though not mentally of course].. Lopez is another underachiever, and he could have some big results ahead of him..

Verdasco began playing on hardcourts, so perhaps that has something to do with it??

Har-Tru
02-18-2010, 10:51 AM
Verdasco and Lopez come from central Spain, where hardcourts are more common than in the East, where the vast majority of Spanish players come from.

CmonAussie
02-22-2010, 01:14 PM
<<<>>>
What a bizarre case JCF is::
World #1 & FO champion @ 23 yrs, then no titles for 6 years, then 3 titles out of the blue at age 30..!!
Did he just waste 6 years of his life..??
<<<>>>


13 September 1999 Majorca, Spain Clay Àlex Corretja
...2000 - No Titles...
4 February 2001 Dubai, UAE Hard Marat Safin
9 April 2001 Estoril, Portugal Clay Felix Mantilla
23 April 2001 Barcelona, Spain Clay Carlos Moyà
7 May 2001 Rome, Italy Clay Gustavo Kuerten
15 April 2002 Monte Carlo, Monaco Clay Carlos Moyà
23 September 2002 Hong Kong, China Hard
14 April 2003 Monte Carlo, Monaco (2) Clay
28 April 2003 Valencia, Spain Clay
26 May 2003 French Open, Paris, France Clay
13 October 2003 Madrid, Spain Hard (i)
...2004 - No Titles...
...2005 - No Titles...
...2006 - No Titles...
...2007 - No Titles...
...2008 - No Titles...
12 April 2009 Casablanca, Morocco Clay
14 February 2010 Costa do Sauípe, Brazil Clay
21 February 2010 Buenos Aires, Argentina Clay

CmonAussie
02-27-2010, 12:36 AM
...
JCF is unstoppable..!!
Looks like he`ll be back in the Top-10 pretty soon("")

abraxas21
02-27-2010, 01:50 AM
most likely he will... he doesn't have any points to defend in indian wells and miami and he'll be ranked 13 or so the next week.

he should ditch the DC and get some rest for that, imo.

Jimnik
02-27-2010, 06:37 PM
...
JCF is unstoppable..!!
Looks like he`ll be back in the Top-10 pretty soon("")
There's still a long way to go. What he's gained this month in terms of confidence is priceless and should help him dramatically for the rest of the season. But in terms of ranking points he needs good runs in at least two or three of the major events. MC, Rome, Madrid and RG will most likely be his best opportunity. He's always struggled at the American masters in March.


most likely he will... he doesn't have any points to defend in indian wells and miami and he'll be ranked 13 or so the next week.

he should ditch the DC and get some rest for that, imo.
Problem is he has DC points to defend too and all he needs is to beat Chiudinelli at home on clay. I'm pretty sure he'll be ranked above Ferrer even if he loses today so he'll definitely be Spain's #1 (he gets to play Swiss #2).

brent-o
02-28-2010, 12:40 AM
Well look at how alot of them play.. The run around like a bunch of a orangutans to win points.

Would you rather they stand still? :p