RG R1: Simon finally wins again, def. Odesnik 3-6, 7-5, 6-2, 4-6, 6-3. [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

RG R1: Simon finally wins again, def. Odesnik 3-6, 7-5, 6-2, 4-6, 6-3.

Chiakifug
05-24-2009, 06:55 PM
He has an easy draw for the first few rounds, hopefully he can take advantage of it. Good morale boosting win, he needed it. He fed off the support of the crowd in the last set. :worship:

W!MBLEDON
05-24-2009, 06:55 PM
lol @ the effort it took

is simon really that bad or does odesnik actually fight the system and not suck on clay; turned off the tv some time during the first set

oh well, positive winner/unforced error ratio from simon in the end... according to this shoddy slamtracker anyway

brands or kendrick next

scarecrows
05-24-2009, 06:56 PM
Odesnik has done shit this season and took him to final set

shame he gets to play Kendrick next round, a decent claycourter would have taken this mug out

Sapeod
05-24-2009, 06:57 PM
She-mug won a match on clay, finally? Good for him. Wayne-O losing some points now. That's going to hurt.

arm
05-24-2009, 06:57 PM
*phew* :banana:

Action Jackson
05-24-2009, 06:57 PM
Good way to win the match for Simon, should be a bit easier for him next round.

One poor game from Odesnik in the 5th and he got nailed for it.

roberthenman
05-24-2009, 06:58 PM
Simon :yeah:, nice effort

miura
05-24-2009, 06:58 PM
Nice, now win the next 3 matches aswell :)

habibko
05-24-2009, 06:58 PM
could this be a turning point for Simon's confidence? I saw some great play from him in this match, some aggressive play at times, though more pushing for most of the time, the match point was very impressive :worship:

Leo
05-24-2009, 06:58 PM
What a forehand on the run to end the match! It was his forehand that saved him today. Gilles played well in the sets that he won, although I didn't see much of the sets that he lost. Odesnik has a heavy topspin lefty forehand, so I can see why he would be tough on this surface, for an American at least.

I'd like to see a Youzhny/Simon 3rd round. Would be high quality and high aesthetics.

Vida
05-24-2009, 07:00 PM
what a drag of a match. pity for Wayne.

Renaud
05-24-2009, 07:01 PM
in bad form Simon > in bad form Odesnik

seulCONTREtous
05-24-2009, 07:01 PM
simon punishes wayne-O for wearing blue shoes and white socks with black shorts / shirt.

Cloudygirl
05-24-2009, 07:01 PM
Simon wasn't great but it wasn't a terrible match. At the moment anything is a good win for him.

norwegian_wood
05-24-2009, 07:08 PM
I watch Simon and think two things: 1) How is he number 7 in the world? 2) Is he Arnaud Clement?

Leo
05-24-2009, 07:09 PM
in bad form Simon > in bad form Odesnik

It wasn't that bad a match at all. Lots of winners and aggressive play from both, especially their forehand sides.

DartMarcus
05-24-2009, 07:10 PM
Nice match to watch :)

Lee
05-24-2009, 07:19 PM
The quality of the match is better than I expect, not great but with good points here and there. Odesnik is a decent clay court player coming from US.

Good one for Simon winning a 5 setters but the home crowd helps a lot in the 5th set.

HeretiC
05-24-2009, 07:34 PM
Wayne had his chances at the start of the fifth and he blew it. Simon took his after that. It was an even match. He has as easy as possible draw but I still think he will be upseted.

MrChopin
05-24-2009, 07:47 PM
Simple needs to be expelled from the Top 10 ASAP. That whining after the fourth about Odesnik taking too much time was rather shameful as well.

MsTree
05-24-2009, 08:19 PM
Nice one Gillou :p

pica_pica
05-24-2009, 08:22 PM
:) Gillou :hug: I'm sure he's not too comfortable playing in front of home crowd
:yeah: A win in 5 sets can boost confidence. Allez, Gilles! :inlove:

KarlyM
05-24-2009, 08:27 PM
This was a fun match to watch. I thought Wayne-O was going to pull out the win, but he at least made a good effort. :) Nice to see that Gilles didn't crumble under the pressure of the French press/fans. ;)

fast_clay
05-24-2009, 08:30 PM
is Simon the new Lionel Roux...?

madmax
05-24-2009, 08:30 PM
while watching simple Simon playing, I found myself wondering how does this guy is Nr.7 in the worlds - that's the biggest tennis mystery of them all:unsure:

philosophicalarf
05-24-2009, 08:50 PM
I watch Simon and think two things: 1) How is he number 7 in the world? 2) Is he Arnaud Clement?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYU4T_UfjZo

Minute 2:08 onwards in particular.


At his best he's tactically the best on tour, far more than the pusher stereotype that seems to have infected these boards.

Of course, he's **** at the moment though.

iSzavay.
05-24-2009, 09:01 PM
Wayne :help: how can you lose to him :o.

Leo
05-24-2009, 09:12 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYU4T_UfjZo

Minute 2:08 onwards in particular.


At his best he's tactically the best on tour, far more than the pusher stereotype that seems to have infected these boards.

Of course, he's **** at the moment though.

:worship: Posters here are so quick to forget or ignore good tennis. Simon is not and will never be a good clay court player. It doesn't suit his movement, strokes, or other strengths in his game. Today was only his second ever win in Paris at the French. But he is a brilliant player on faster surfaces, and his recent wins over Nadal and Federer are good examples.

ossie
05-24-2009, 09:19 PM
both of them played like trash

philosophicalarf
05-24-2009, 09:28 PM
Posters here are so quick to forget or ignore good tennis.

Not just here either - the last 12 months, Simon was the second most underrated player on tour by the odds, behind only delPot (another I've found myself defending repeatedly ....... until Miami), and that's even after including a rubbish period recently for Simon. By and large, MTF and most tennis forums reflect this.

sammy01
05-24-2009, 09:34 PM
thank god simon won, he has a nice draw he needs to fight to get through it but it will do his confidence the world of good.

Roddickominator
05-24-2009, 09:41 PM
Odesnik needs to start juicing.

MrChopin
05-24-2009, 09:48 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYU4T_UfjZo

Minute 2:08 onwards in particular.


At his best he's tactically the best on tour, far more than the pusher stereotype that seems to have infected these boards.

Of course, he's **** at the moment though.

:haha: Best tactics on tour? That's incredible. The weak FH at 3:43 tells you all you need to know about the Simple one.

This clip confirms what I thought... Simon is a pusher mug who should not be top 10. Sorry to his dearest fans... he may be a great guy, but his tennis is of the shittiest variety.

Roddickominator
05-24-2009, 09:51 PM
Pt #3: The weak FH at 3:43 tells you all you need to know about the Simple one.

Exactly....Simon hits a decent enough serve for a weak return from Nadal. Simon is 2-3 steps inside the baseline, and pushes back a wuss boy forehand and eventually gets lucky with Nadal missing a pass.

betowiec
05-24-2009, 09:58 PM
good win gileski

tennisfan444
05-24-2009, 10:04 PM
:)

Machiavelli
05-24-2009, 10:07 PM
Pathetic display from Odesnik, losing to this muppet...

CescAndyKimi
05-24-2009, 11:01 PM
Simon is a pusher. His forehand is probably the worst on tour. Weak as a baby's.

GlennMirnyi
05-24-2009, 11:13 PM
:worship: Posters here are so quick to forget or ignore good tennis. Simon is not and will never be a good clay court player. It doesn't suit his movement, strokes, or other strengths in his game. Today was only his second ever win in Paris at the French. But he is a brilliant player on faster surfaces, and his recent wins over Nadal and Federer are good examples.

We're quick to ignore rubbish tennis, in this case.

Chiakifug
05-24-2009, 11:39 PM
Awww, haters :hug: So overexaggerating.

HeretiC
05-24-2009, 11:39 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYU4T_UfjZo

Minute 2:08 onwards in particular.


At his best he's tactically the best on tour, far more than the pusher stereotype that seems to have infected these boards.

Of course, he's **** at the moment though.

Are you kidding? Retrieving 15 balls in the middle of the court is the proof of his tactical mind? Do you think that he could have catch any of those if Nadal flattened his shots just a bit or used angles?

Guy Haines
05-24-2009, 11:56 PM
Mr. Chopin, are you sure your hide isn't still smarting from those two Federer losses to Simon last year?

Philo, good posts. Not that Gilles' has actually validated those of us who think he is or can be top rank.

"Pusher" and "mug" are the two biggest cliches on this board. At least Glenn uses them with a sense of humor. Everyone's entitled to think Gilles is nothing but a pusher and a mug, but Sapeod, you need to get a life or something. Do you even watch his matches before coming in with your immature nitwit remarks?

This was actually a decent match. Simon's anticipation isn't what it was last year, but he was more consistent, and he cracked a fair number of winners.

Kudos to Wayne, who would have gotten a win against a lot of other players. He got to third round last year and played Djokovic pretty hard. This is rough for him because clay is his best surface. But his serve is getting stronger, so maybe his hard court results will improve until this time next year.

HeretiC
05-24-2009, 11:59 PM
Lack of tactics from opponent and loads of UEs doesn't make anyone a tactical genius. He is highly resilient and a fighter but he doesn't come up with any tactics in any match. He can't work on shots without pace, he can't deal with short balls, he is heavily dependent on opponents game, if it suits to his game then he has a chance in the match, but if not there is not much he can do.

finishingmove
05-25-2009, 12:06 AM
what a figther, gilles simon.

Mint Chip
05-25-2009, 12:16 AM
Shouldn't be this close but a win is a win. I guess Simon wouldn't be a mug if he played like Nadal with all that bullshit topspin

Lourdes
05-25-2009, 12:33 AM
In five. Okay.

philosophicalarf
05-25-2009, 12:43 AM
Are you kidding? Retrieving 15 balls in the middle of the court is the proof of his tactical mind?

No. The youtube clip was a response to "how did he get to number 7?". That win was a major reason why, being his biggest points gain. His tactical acumen is obvious to anyone who watches him play on hard/indoors.

This thread rather proves my point anyway. Just like the betting markets, mtf is riddled with those who don't appreciate Simon. I'm happy for the former to carry on doing so - as above, he's statistically the 2nd most underrated player on the entire tour.

felipe2004
05-25-2009, 01:12 AM
:D Good luck next round, Simon! ;)

rocketassist
05-25-2009, 01:47 AM
Keeping the ball in play and waiting for an error shows amazing brains and tactical wizardry :haha:

Or in fact it's the most basic game ever.

luie
05-25-2009, 01:58 AM
So the pusher won a match on clay.Oh joy.

HeretiC
05-25-2009, 02:01 AM
No. The youtube clip was a response to "how did he get to number 7?". That win was a major reason why, being his biggest points gain. His tactical acumen is obvious to anyone who watches him play on hard/indoors.

This thread rather proves my point anyway. Just like the betting markets, mtf is riddled with those who don't appreciate Simon. I'm happy for the former to carry on doing so - as above, he's statistically the 2nd most underrated player on the entire tour.

He got to #7 because he gathered enough points to be in that place. Neither his number 7 place or his win against Nadal proves that he is the best tactical player on tour. He almost doesn't implement tactics in his game at all.

Mechlan
05-25-2009, 04:04 AM
One poor game from Odesnik in the 5th and he got nailed for it.

That about sums it up. Very spotty from Simon. He's going out soon unless he picks up some confidence.

lamnathalie
05-25-2009, 09:13 AM
Keep going, Gilles!!

HattonWBA
05-25-2009, 09:33 AM
Simon did not play well but Odesnik is very solid on clay, so good opening win, needs to improve though

Tutu
05-25-2009, 10:01 AM
He got to #7 because he gathered enough points to be in that place. Neither his number 7 place or his win against Nadal proves that he is the best tactical player on tour. He almost doesn't implement tactics in his game at all.

Bullshit. His wins against federer, against nadal and against almost all the good players he played last year indicate that when he's on and confident, he is one of, if not the best tactical player on tour, i mean who is above him? Rafa? :tape: And if you're telling me that he plays with no tactics at all, then I suggest you leave this forum right now, because you know nothing about tennis.

leng jai
05-25-2009, 10:36 AM
Bullshit. His wins against federer, against nadal and against almost all the good players he played last year indicate that when he's on and confident, he is one of, if not the best tactical player on tour, i mean who is above him? Rafa? :tape: And if you're telling me that he plays with no tactics at all, then I suggest you leave this forum right now, because you know nothing about tennis.

Tutu know what he/she is talking about, he/she spends all day watching the master tacticians also known as the WTA tour.

HeretiC
05-25-2009, 02:12 PM
Bullshit. His wins against federer, against nadal and against almost all the good players he played last year indicate that when he's on and confident, he is one of, if not the best tactical player on tour, i mean who is above him? Rafa? :tape: And if you're telling me that he plays with no tactics at all, then I suggest you leave this forum right now, because you know nothing about tennis.

Tutu know what he/she is talking about, he/she spends all day watching the master tacticians also known as the WTA tour.

He/she beats me there. No better tacticians than WTA right now. And he/she is right too, Simon is up there with them, if not better. And his tactics are so canny that no one can even spot what they are.

Guy Haines
05-25-2009, 07:47 PM
He/she beats me there. No better tacticians than WTA right now. And he/she is right too, Simon is up there with them, if not better. And his tactics are so canny that no one can even spot what they are.

I actually think Gilles is best when he keeps his plan simple. He's smart and modest enough to have a tendency to overthink.

Since Simon has no game plan in your opinion, who are the master tacticians in the ATP at the moment? I can think of a few who know how to use tactics well against Simon -- Ljubicic or Tsonga. But they're ranked below him.

Tactically, Nadal and Murray are superb, but there's a ton of GM naysayers who'd say they don't know how to use tactics either.

Good tactics aren't always evident or easily recognized.

HeretiC
05-25-2009, 11:45 PM
I actually think Gilles is best when he keeps his plan simple. He's smart and modest enough to have a tendency to overthink.

Since Simon has no game plan in your opinion, who are the master tacticians in the ATP at the moment? I can think of a few who know how to use tactics well against Simon -- Ljubicic or Tsonga. But they're ranked below him.

Tactically, Nadal and Murray are superb, but there's a ton of GM naysayers who'd say they don't know how to use tactics either.

Good tactics aren't always evident or easily recognized.

Murray is probably on top right now (apart from clay). Djokovic, Nalbandian, even Nadal is tactically strong within his abilities. From the lower ranked players: Stepanek, Ljubicic, Santoro. There was a time when Federer was a solid one before he became too arogant about the superiority of his game, but I think he will revert to using tactics more and more as he is getting older. You can spot a good tactician when he is changing game-plans on the fly.

Tutu
05-26-2009, 12:17 AM
Tutu know what he/she is talking about, he/she spends all day watching the master tacticians also known as the WTA tour.

He/she beats me there. No better tacticians than WTA right now. And he/she is right too, Simon is up there with them, if not better. And his tactics are so canny that no one can even spot what they are.

I dont get why you people always bring up the WTA? Some people like the tennis, GET OVER IT. Do you feel threatened by it it something? :retard:

I know my tennis, apparently more than you and so I dont want to hear your lame WTA attacks simly because you have nothing meaningful to say about the subject matter. :wavey: And im a fan of Tati who happens to be a pretty great tactitan so. :cool:

docking34
05-26-2009, 12:21 AM
which tati? golovin?

Tutu
05-26-2009, 12:25 AM
Yep. :tears:

6nS_p5QW9Yg

Tati is love. :tears:

Ciarán.
05-26-2009, 12:37 AM
:d

Tutu
05-26-2009, 12:39 AM
Get those WTA players out of your sig! WTA suckz!!!1111

HeretiC
05-26-2009, 12:49 AM
I dont get why you people always bring up the WTA? Some people like the tennis, GET OVER IT. Do you feel threatened by it it something? :retard:

I know my tennis, apparently more than you and so I dont want to hear your lame WTA attacks simly because you have nothing meaningful to say about the subject matter. :wavey: And im a fan of Tati who happens to be a pretty great tactitan so. :cool:

Nobody knows your tennis more than you do, but that doesn't mean that you know about tennis.

I like tennis too and I watch WTA, but correlating the current WTA field with use of tactics it is not just inappropriate- it is retarded. And so far it was you who haven't said anything meaningful about the subject matter , you only stated that Simon and WTA are great tacticians backed up by nothing, and all who thinks the opposite doesn't know anything about tennis. Quite lame.

meihaditalab
05-26-2009, 02:07 AM
haha, finally wins, but barely

Guy Haines
05-26-2009, 02:56 AM
Keeping the ball in play and waiting for an error shows amazing brains and tactical wizardry :haha:

Or in fact it's the most basic game ever.

That's all you think he does? :o

ClaudiuS
05-26-2009, 03:04 AM
Simon will be out in the 3rd round.

Guy Haines
05-26-2009, 03:13 AM
Murray is probably on top right now (apart from clay). Djokovic, Nalbandian, even Nadal is tactically strong within his abilities. From the lower ranked players: Stepanek, Ljubicic, Santoro. There was a time when Federer was a solid one before he became too arogant about the superiority of his game, but I think he will revert to using tactics more and more as he is getting older. You can spot a good tactician when he is changing game-plans on the fly.

If those are the best, then Gilles is up there with them, or not far from them. Nadal might be better than all of the above. Unlike most of the ATP, he knows how to adapt a losing game, even if appearance-wise game has little subtlety. For example he serves smartly/well on important points. That's something Simon does too when he isn't playing lousy.

Djokovic seems more solid than strategic to me. His serve placement seems like one of the best tactical aspects of his game. His drop shots one of the worst.

Ljubicic is a smart tactical player for sure. Stepanek can be smart and he can also be completely dunderheaded. His approach -- literally and figuratively -- against Federer in Rome this year was idiocy.

Federer has great ability and can be great tactically. He knows how to make players like Del Potro look amateur, at least now.

If Santoro is great tactically rather than showy, then Simon and moreso Murray are amongst the closest to them. At his best, two things Gilles does well tactically is change up direction and pace. There are a lot of players who can hit the hell out of the ball in the top 100, but not a lot that can do that. Ljubicic can, which is why he beats Simon. The other kind of player that can trounce him is a big hitter on a good day: Roddick, Soderling, Blake.

Venle
05-26-2009, 07:59 AM
I was sure he was going down... :o Luckily in the end he pulled it out.

rtgy
05-26-2009, 08:57 AM
Bullshit. His wins against federer, against nadal and against almost all the good players he played last year indicate that when he's on and confident, he is one of, if not the best tactical player on tour, i mean who is above him? Rafa? :tape: And if you're telling me that he plays with no tactics at all, then I suggest you leave this forum right now, because you know nothing about tennis.


:worship::worship::worship::worship::worship:

TennisViewer531
05-26-2009, 09:18 AM
Good job Gilles!

HeretiC
05-26-2009, 09:19 AM
If those are the best, then Gilles is up there with them, or not far from them. Nadal might be better than all of the above. Unlike most of the ATP, he knows how to adapt a losing game, even if appearance-wise game has little subtlety. For example he serves smartly/well on important points. That's something Simon does too when he isn't playing lousy.

Djokovic seems more solid than strategic to me. His serve placement seems like one of the best tactical aspects of his game. His drop shots one of the worst.

Ljubicic is a smart tactical player for sure. Stepanek can be smart and he can also be completely dunderheaded. His approach -- literally and figuratively -- against Federer in Rome this year was idiocy.

Federer has great ability and can be great tactically. He knows how to make players like Del Potro look amateur, at least now.

If Santoro is great tactically rather than showy, then Simon and moreso Murray are amongst the closest to them. At his best, two things Gilles does well tactically is change up direction and pace. There are a lot of players who can hit the hell out of the ball in the top 100, but not a lot that can do that. Ljubicic can, which is why he beats Simon. The other kind of player that can trounce him is a big hitter on a good day: Roddick, Soderling, Blake.

Tactics is not an ability to hit a certain shot nor a game-style that player plays all the time. Tactics involve 4 basic premises.
1. Neutralize opponent strengths
2. Expose opponent weaknesses
3. Force your strengths
4. Hide/Protect your weaknesses
All this are different for every opponent across the net and that means that you have to deploy different game-styles, force different shots and constructions. Simon doesn't do that, he doesn't know how to deal with shots without pace, he doesn't do well on short balls, he has too many apparent weaknesses and he can't cover them, nor he is able to exploit opponent weaknesses if opponents game doesn't suit to his game-style. Take the pace out and he will revert to pushing from both wings after hitting few UEs while trying to generate his own pace. Even big hitters can blast him out of the court on a decent day. All of this is why he is trailing behind in H2H against mentioned players, 1-3 against Murray, 1-3 vs Nadal, 0-3 vs Ljubicic, 1-2 vs Stepanek, 1-2 vs Djokovic, he is even 1-1 against 37 years old Santoro. As I mentioned before Simon does well when he is having an opponent who will give him pace to work with, he is good at counter-punching, retrieving, he is a fighter and highly resilient player. But all in all, Simon is not a tactician.

Julio
05-26-2009, 09:46 AM
Still not really convincing for Gilles.

Ivanatis
05-26-2009, 10:03 AM
pity Wayne lost

Tutu
05-26-2009, 12:19 PM
Nobody knows your tennis more than you do, but that doesn't mean that you know about tennis.

I like tennis too and I watch WTA, but correlating the current WTA field with use of tactics it is not just inappropriate- it is retarded. And so far it was you who haven't said anything meaningful about the subject matter , you only stated that Simon and WTA are great tacticians backed up by nothing, and all who thinks the opposite doesn't know anything about tennis. Quite lame.

:retard: I did not once bring up the WTA and try and correlate its tactics with the ATP. :retard: It was you and your retarded friend who chose to attack my like of the WTA simply because you had nothing meaningful to say, that is the only logical explaination.

Bullshit. His wins against federer, against nadal and against almost all the good players he played last year indicate that when he's on and confident, he is one of, if not the best tactical player on tour, i mean who is above him? Rafa? And if you're telling me that he plays with no tactics at all, then I suggest you leave this forum right now, because you know nothing about tennis.
Do you see any mention of WTA in this post? No. So just stop.


And as for gilles, he varys the pace and spin of his shots, he can uses his opponents power against them, net rushes + serve and volleys somethims, uses angles, varys the height of his shots to get a short reply and pounces on it, and his trademark bait and passing etc. And he does all that depending on the type of player he is playing, he reads the game so well, that should be painfully obvious to anybody with half a brain cell, of course this is GM after all - hmmmm...

HeretiC
05-26-2009, 02:28 PM
:retard: I did not once bring up the WTA and try and correlate its tactics with the ATP. :retard: It was you and your retarded friend who chose to attack my like of the WTA simply because you had nothing meaningful to say, that is the only logical explaination.

Do you see any mention of WTA in this post? No. So just stop.

Should I quote you about Tati being a tactitian? leng jai just predicted what you are going to say next, because you obviously have a history of saying similar things. And you still said it. :lol:


And as for gilles, he varys the pace and spin of his shots, he can uses his opponents power against them, net rushes + serve and volleys somethims, uses angles, varys the height of his shots to get a short reply and pounces on it, and his trademark bait and passing etc. And he does all that depending on the type of player he is playing, he reads the game so well, that should be painfully obvious to anybody with half a brain cell, of course this is GM after all - hmmmm...

This is the second time you are reverting to personal insults. Now I will answer to you in your fashion. You are even that stupid that you can't even make a difference between shot-making ability from a tactics. You are even that retarded that you can not see that Simon is playing exactly the same in every match and in every situation regardless of the opponent. You are even that clueless that you can't notice that he doesn't change game-plans and that it just looks to you that he is playing differently cause of the different levels of pressure that the opponent is putting on him. And it is painfully obvious that your abilities to have a polite conversation and discussion are the same as you tennis knowledge - non-existent. But, you are entitled to have your own oppinion regardless how idiotic it might be. I won't waste anymore time on you.

rocketassist
05-26-2009, 02:41 PM
Anyone who thinks WTA > ATP, it isn't really worth reading their views.

Tutu
05-26-2009, 04:14 PM
Anyone who thinks WTA > ATP, it isn't really worth reading their views.

WTA = ATP. :wavey:

Tutu
05-26-2009, 04:44 PM
Should I quote you about Tati being a tactitian? leng jai just predicted what you are going to say next, because you obviously have a history of saying similar things. And you still said it. :lol:

Well Tati is, I didnt say the rest of the tour, I know that shes in the 1% who actually do use their brains. Go and watch the video, her dissecting Henin who's dick this forum seems to suck.

This is the second time you are reverting to personal insults. Now I will answer to you in your fashion. You are even that stupid that you can't even make a difference between shot-making ability from a tactics. You are even that retarded that you can not see that Simon is playing exactly the same in every match and in every situation regardless of the opponent. You are even that clueless that you can't notice that he doesn't change game-plans and that it just looks to you that he is playing differently cause of the different levels of pressure that the opponent is putting on him. And it is painfully obvious that your abilities to have a polite conversation and discussion are the same as you tennis knowledge - non-existent. But, you are entitled to have your own oppinion regardless how idiotic it might be. I won't waste anymore time on you.
Hmmmm. How would you know all of this about Simon if he's such a boring pusher? You're telling me that you've watched enough of his matches to come to this conclusion? I didnt come here to have an argument but y'all are so blinded by hate or jealousy or whatever that you can't see what is painfully obvious.

"You are even that stupid that you can't even make a difference between shot-making ability from a tactics."
Yes I pointed out his shotmaking abilities because you people seem to think that they are non existent. But no, he has a lot of variety in his game. And yes, he did change his game to the pressure inflicted on him by his opponent, but he knew what he was doing and changed it with good intentions rather than panic, if his opponent was just pushing the ball back (Go see Murray vs Gilles at madrid) he would try to thake the initiative, use his then big forehand and push forward often finishing points at the net, however if he was under immense pressure like in the federer matches, he would stay back hitting the ball shorter and baiting fed into the net before hitting a trademark pass. Whats wrong with that, and is that not smart?

Im sorry if I did offend you in any way or whatever but people say this time and time again and it is so not true. It just really isn't. Maybe we're just watching different matches or something. I understand why you say he's a pusher with just one gameplan and I see it and it always pisses me off but why do you think he suddenly broke through after being a dull top 30 player for such a long time? its because he changed it up, read his and opponents game and ultimatly became more aggresive when it was needed and more.

BA1oDo3soCg

Is this really that same ol' pushing into the middle of the court that you seemed to describe?

HeretiC
05-26-2009, 07:21 PM
Well Tati is, I didnt say the rest of the tour, I know that shes in the 1% who actually do use their brains. Go and watch the video, her dissecting Henin who's dick this forum seems to suck.

Hmmmm. How would you know all of this about Simon if he's such a boring pusher? You're telling me that you've watched enough of his matches to come to this conclusion? I didnt come here to have an argument but y'all are so blinded by hate or jealousy or whatever that you can't see what is painfully obvious.

"You are even that stupid that you can't even make a difference between shot-making ability from a tactics."
Yes I pointed out his shotmaking abilities because you people seem to think that they are non existent. But no, he has a lot of variety in his game. And yes, he did change his game to the pressure inflicted on him by his opponent, but he knew what he was doing and changed it with good intentions rather than panic, if his opponent was just pushing the ball back (Go see Murray vs Gilles at madrid) he would try to thake the initiative, use his then big forehand and push forward often finishing points at the net, however if he was under immense pressure like in the federer matches, he would stay back hitting the ball shorter and baiting fed into the net before hitting a trademark pass. Whats wrong with that, and is that not smart?

Im sorry if I did offend you in any way or whatever but people say this time and time again and it is so not true. It just really isn't. Maybe we're just watching different matches or something. I understand why you say he's a pusher with just one gameplan and I see it and it always pisses me off but why do you think he suddenly broke through after being a dull top 30 player for such a long time? its because he changed it up, read his and opponents game and ultimatly became more aggresive when it was needed and more.

BA1oDo3soCg

Is this really that same ol' pushing into the middle of the court that you seemed to describe?

Apology excepted. I have watched a loads of Simon matches and I don't find him boring. I don't hate him at all and I rate very high his resilience and fighting spirit. And of course that being in top 10 without big weapons is a big deal too. And he also has a solid repertoire of shots. But you can not base someones abilities on a certain match up, even less his tactical skills. Those situations you are describing are exactly the ones that suits Simon the best. Being a good tactician means changing a game-plan when the opponent doesn't play to your strengths and is exposing your weaknesses and then find a one that will reverse the situation.
And why do you think a pusher means something criminally bad? It is just the way of hitting the ball. Roddick is pushing his BH, Djokovic was mostly pushing for almost 9-10 months, up until RG Murray was pushing for the whole clay season. It is something that players often do when they have not enough confidence in their offensive shots.

Guy Haines
05-27-2009, 12:27 AM
Tactics is not an ability to hit a certain shot nor a game-style that player plays all the time. Tactics involve 4 basic premises.
1. Neutralize opponent strengths
2. Expose opponent weaknesses
3. Force your strengths
4. Hide/Protect your weaknesses
All this are different for every opponent across the net and that means that you have to deploy different game-styles, force different shots and constructions. Simon doesn't do that, he doesn't know how to deal with shots without pace, he doesn't do well on short balls, he has too many apparent weaknesses and he can't cover them, nor he is able to exploit opponent weaknesses if opponents game doesn't suit to his game-style. Take the pace out and he will revert to pushing from both wings after hitting few UEs while trying to generate his own pace. Even big hitters can blast him out of the court on a decent day. All of this is why he is trailing behind in H2H against mentioned players, 1-3 against Murray, 1-3 vs Nadal, 0-3 vs Ljubicic, 1-2 vs Stepanek, 1-2 vs Djokovic, he is even 1-1 against 37 years old Santoro. As I mentioned before Simon does well when he is having an opponent who will give him pace to work with, he is good at counter-punching, retrieving, he is a fighter and highly resilient player. But all in all, Simon is not a tactician.

I don't think I suggested that tactics were the ability to hit a certain shot, or a particular game-style. :shrug: I started off by inferring that the ability to change a losing game is one possible sign of a good tactician. When I mention particular shots, I'm referring to how someone uses them tactically. To me the strongest aspect of Djokovic's tactical game is connected to his ability to serve strongly in a way that is hard to read. He deploys itn tactically. Federer knows to employ shots against Del Potro that other players either don't know to play, or aren't capable of executing as well.

I can go with those 4 requirements you list, which are very broadly defined. But Simon does some of them quite well. If he truly was as terrible or ordinary or untalented as nearly everyone on GM says he is, he would never have been ranked so high -- unless he's a decent tactician. In fact, he got where he did by being one of the best at #1 on your list.

No point in arguing split hairs though. I don't think Simon is some tactical wizard. His game definitely has weaknesses, and this year he's dealing with the fallout of people starting to recognize them. I'm not sure if a tactical wizard exists at the moment apart from perhaps the Rafa-Toni fusion. Though Federer could put some smart tactics into effect in the very near future.

Guy Haines
05-27-2009, 12:32 AM
Apology accepted. I have watched a loads of Simon matches and I don't find him boring. I don't hate him at all and I rate very high his resilience and fighting spirit. And of course that being in top 10 without big weapons is a big deal too. And he also has a solid repertoire of shots. But you can not base someones abilities on a certain match up, even less his tactical skills. Those situations you are describing are exactly the ones that suits Simon the best. Being a good tactician means changing a game-plan when the opponent doesn't play to your strengths and is exposing your weaknesses and then find a one that will reverse the situation.
And why do you think a pusher means something criminally bad? It is just the way of hitting the ball. Roddick is pushing his BH, Djokovic was mostly pushing for almost 9-10 months, up until RG Murray was pushing for the whole clay season. It is something that players often do when they have not enough confidence in their offensive shots.

We agree more than it seems. For whatever that's worth. :lol:

Interesting point about pusherdom, too. Tutu might be defensive because pushing is used in nothing but a derogatory fashion here.

Maybe the difference is between players who simply push the back and players who show a talent for redirecting pace. Simon does a fair amount of both. But I'm not sure how good much of the ATP is at the latter.

I can see why pushers are hated. Anyone who has lost to a pusher knows it's one of the most frustrating experiences in tennis, if not the most frustrating.

Chiakifug
05-27-2009, 12:43 PM
Jesus, people with this superiority complex about the ATP and WTA need to seriously get a grip. Theres nothing wrong with watching and enjoying womens tennis, it is more exciting more exciting then mens by a long shot. Some would say that means its weak, but it could also mean that these players beating the top players are genuinly good, meaning there is a high quality.

And for people saying there are no women tacticians have obviously never seen players like Radwanska or Schynder play, and that there are plenty of different styles, unless you want to stupidly argue that players like Safina, Jankovic, Wozniacki, Bartoli, Mauresmo or Suarez Navarro all play the same. Bullsh!t.

The sexism on this board gets way overboard sometimes, and its stupid. (and this is coming from a guy) Tennis is tennis, both tours are the same, neither is better nor worse then the other.

ossie
05-27-2009, 12:56 PM
Jesus, people with this superiority complex about the ATP and WTA need to seriously get a grip. Theres nothing wrong with watching and enjoying womens tennis, it is more exciting more exciting then mens by a long shot. Some would say that means its weak, but it could also mean that these players beating the top players are genuinly good, meaning there is a high quality.

And for people saying there are no women tacticians have obviously never seen players like Radwanska or Schynder play, and that there are plenty of different styles, unless you want to stupidly argue that players like Safina, Jankovic, Wozniacki, Bartoli, Mauresmo or Suarez Navarro all play the same. Bullsh!t.

The sexism on this board gets way overboard sometimes, and its stupid. (and this is coming from a guy) Tennis is tennis, both tours are the same, neither is better nor worse then the other.
yea right :rolleyes:

Chiakifug
05-27-2009, 01:00 PM
yea right :rolleyes:

You have seen these matches?