ATP: We have a problem [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

ATP: We have a problem

Tennis Fool
09-07-2002, 08:56 PM
This is what's wrong with the ATP. They've marketed these young BALLZ who continually fail to deliver.

Look at the WTA: You don't see a Aranxta v. Monica matchup in the finals, DESTROYING opponents in their wake.

Now you have NEW LEGS: The Williams sisters, 20 and 22.

I guess the men's ratings will be up tho because everyone atleast knows who Andre Agassi and Pete Sampras are.:o

Chloe le Bopper
09-07-2002, 09:01 PM
Two champs are having their last hurrah..

Why rag on the rest of the guys, when we can enjoy a little history?

Dissident
09-07-2002, 09:06 PM
You´re posting like 100 messages a minute to bash men´s tennis? :confused: Are you sure you are in the right board??? :o

irma
09-07-2002, 09:09 PM
that's all because the queen is retired and rather jumps for her husband:D

Chloe le Bopper
09-07-2002, 09:11 PM
Lets examine a few of these New Balls, shall we?

Hewitt and Safin have both won slams, and reached number on in the world. Safin has been in the semis of every slam except Wimbledon, where he has been to the quarters.

Haas is a two time slam semi finalist, masters series winner, who has reached number two in the world.

Ferrero is a two time semifinalist, and grand slam runnerup, two time masters series winner, former number two player in the world.

Guga (who was by no means NEW anyways :p), has won masters series, a slam, the masters cup, and reached number one in the world since the New Balls label was given to him.

You're right, they are pitiful. ;)

Tennis Fool
09-07-2002, 09:12 PM
Hitman,

If I'm posting a 100 messages a minute, what kind of fan does that tell you I am???

I don't see anyone else posting to support them...

(I'm not against Sampras and Agassi, I just want to see the ATP do better as a whole)

irma
09-07-2002, 09:13 PM
30 and 32 is not that old, I think people exaggerate a little. they are not 60!
in athletics and cycling most reach the top early in their thirties!

Tennis Fool
09-07-2002, 09:16 PM
30 and 32 is not that old, I think people exaggerate a little. they are not 60!
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Don't tell that to the CBS commentators! LOL

TennisHack
09-07-2002, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by Tennis Fool
Hitman,

If I'm posting a 100 messages a minute, what kind of fan does that tell you I am???

I don't see anyone else posting to support them...


Um, have you seen the first page of the forum? EVERYONE is all about Sampras & Agassi. And the New Balls are dominating the players' forum.

And I have no idea what kind of fan you are if you post 100 messages a minute. Rabid?

Chloe le Bopper
09-07-2002, 09:18 PM
I don't think we should use one tournament as the staple for how the ATP is doing.

4 of 8 slam finalists this year have been under the age of 23. Hewitt, Ferrero, Safin, and David.

The Wimbledon final was the youngest in 10-15 years or something like that (since Agassi-Goran I beleive).

Yes they have some improvements to make, and it would be nice if the young guys would step up more, but lets not lose sight of what they HAVE done.

Layla
09-07-2002, 09:24 PM
ATP does NOT have a problem. I love this transitional period when new stars are coming through. Everything goes through cycles and the world of tennis is no exception. You can't expect these young players to have 10 slams to their name when they have barely turned 20. Why are people so impatient?

I really do love the ATP as it is now - its diversity and unpredictabilty. There are so many exciting players around, young and old. :D I don't like domination of any kind.

Dissident
09-07-2002, 09:25 PM
:rolleyes:
So we should count if people are good fans or not for the number of posts they have? Hmmm.
I dont get it :o

Tennis Fool
09-07-2002, 09:26 PM
And I have no idea what kind of fan you are if you post 100 messages a minute. Rabid?
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I was waiting for someone to muck up a RHETORICAL question.

Congratulations on being the first.

Anyway, if I don't want to see a Agassi/Sampras final and am the only one on this board, why do you care?

Chloe le Bopper
09-07-2002, 09:26 PM
I also wanted to add something about difference between men and womens players.

As a rule, women mature faster.

Which is why you don't see women in their early 30's duking it for slams (heck, only a small handful over 25 even contend).

So to compare the Williams sisters at 22 and 20, to Safin or Hewitt at those ages is pointless. The top women dominate more than the top men. Its almost always been that way.

TennisHack
09-07-2002, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by Tennis Fool
And I have no idea what kind of fan you are if you post 100 messages a minute. Rabid?
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I was waiting for someone to muck up a RHETORICAL question.

Congratulations on being the first.

Anyway, if I don't want to see a Agassi/Sampras final and am the only one on this board, why do you care?

How was that a rhetorical question? It looked like you wanted an answer to me :D

And just FYI, you aren't the only one who doesn't care to see Round 34 of Agassi and Sampras. But the rest of us don't have to post it ten million times to make our emotions clear on the matter.

Chloe le Bopper
09-07-2002, 09:31 PM
Tennis Fool - I noticed that you came down a little hard on the new balls, and I felt I came up with a very good rebuttle.

Are you going to reply to it? :confused:

Dissident
09-07-2002, 09:35 PM
:wavey: Hackie ;)

And sorry to Becca MSN is not working anymore. :fiery:

Tennis Fool
09-07-2002, 09:36 PM
Layla, Rebecca:

Thanks for your sincere posts. I see your points but Rebecca, everything you mention the New Balls doing, Agassi/Sampras had achieved and then some by 1993/1994.

Tennis as both a recreational and spectator sport has declined in the last twenty years since the days of Connors/Bjorg/McEnroe.
Rivalries are what get people interested, and when Sampras/Agassi is over who's there to pick up the torch?

The WTA got the CBS night coverage because the ratings are through the roof. This wasn't the case before the rivalries of Anna, Hingis, and the Williams sisters. Now people can't get enough.

When you say Monica, Venus, Serena, Kournikova, most Americans know who you are talking about.

Besides Sampras/Agassi, most Americans don't know any other current tennis players on the ATP.

Layla, besides Hewitt, I don't know of any other ATP player who is seriously challenging for the crown.

Chloe le Bopper
09-07-2002, 09:42 PM
Besides Sampras/Agassi, most Americans don't know any other current tennis players on the ATP.

I think you just adressed a major problem right there.

Football is doing quite alright with little American support, as will tennis.

ATP is just going through a transition period. The older generation, which consists of two old time greats will be gone in a couple years. And not all the young guys are ready to pick up where they left off.

But eventually, it won't just be Hewitt who is.

Sonic
09-07-2002, 09:43 PM
i dunno, 30 and 32 is kinda old, when slams have a 35 and over category for their seniors event

Chloe le Bopper
09-07-2002, 09:44 PM
everything you mention the New Balls doing, Agassi/Sampras had achieved and then some by

Well in 1993/1994, Andre was 22/23. If I'm not mistaken, at this point he had won one slam? He didnt' reach number on untill 1995 did he? In which case both Safin and Hewitt have done more than he at that point.

Pete Sampras has a serious case of being one of the best ever, so it isn't fair to compare young players to him. That is like saying that Serena doesn't measure up because she hasn't won the Golden Slam yet, like Graf did at 19.

Layla
09-07-2002, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by Tennis Fool
Layla, besides Hewitt, I don't know of any other ATP player who is seriously challenging for the crown.

That's what makes this period so exciting. We don't know which ones will turn out to be the future great champions of a new era. But we can follow their progress and witness the birth of greatness as it happens. And there will be breakthroughs, of that I have no doubt. Like I said, it's just a phase in the cycle.

irma
09-07-2002, 09:49 PM
sampras didn't win a slam between 90-93

Tennis Fool
09-07-2002, 09:51 PM
sampras didn't win a slam between 90-93

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Actually he won the US Open in 1990 at age 19.

Chloe le Bopper
09-07-2002, 09:51 PM
Thanks irma...

he won US Open 1990, then didn't win again untill Wimbledon 1993.

Marat, how you been? ;)

Tennis Fool
09-07-2002, 09:55 PM
I don't know. I guess you all have your points and I will mull on them some.

I just see in the future more obscure court players like Johannsen, Costa, in their late twenties spreading around the One Slam Wonder trophies because the NEW BALLS (Marat? Juan Carlos? Roger??) couldn't hang.

I hope you all prove me wrong...

irma
09-07-2002, 09:57 PM
remember andres gomez!

irma
09-07-2002, 09:58 PM
I do because it was the first grand slammed I followed and poor andre was the victim of that:sad: (and steffi of course but that's a different story)

Chloe le Bopper
09-07-2002, 09:59 PM
I don't agree with you, and fell that my rebuttle was quite good, but I can't force people to agree with me.

I know that eventually they will prove you wrong.

Nimi
09-07-2002, 10:02 PM
The days when ATPworld had no bashing (only joke ones) are over :sad:

Layla
09-07-2002, 10:08 PM
There's no bashing in this thread Nimi, just different points of view. :confused:

Tennis Fool
09-07-2002, 10:09 PM
I don't agree with you, and fell that my rebuttle was quite good
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Good, but not good enough:)

Nimi
09-07-2002, 10:09 PM
I didnt see many points of view in him/her starting like 5 threads about how bad the ATP is..

luvbadboys
09-07-2002, 10:11 PM
:fiery: :fiery: :fiery:

There is nothing wrong with men's tennis and while I will admit to being a bit confused by the new balls lack of success at this year's USOPEN (exception Hewitt). They have done fairly well for themselves this year. Only player of tye OLD BALL generation in the top 10 is Andre.
A fan of men's tennis should be happy with who we have in the finals. We ar guaranteed a great well-fought final. AND THAT'S ALWAYS GOOD!!!

Tennis Fool
09-07-2002, 10:11 PM
I didnt see many points of view in him/her starting like 5 threads about how bad the ATP is..
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I only started ONE thread about the ATP. So I'm not sure what you mean...

Also, have you noticed there are only like 5 posters here at a time, compared to WTAWorld, where you can have 50? Hmmmm....

Nimi
09-07-2002, 10:15 PM
Do u see this board's starting date? June 2002. Compared to April 2001. hmmmm...

Gonzo Hates Me!
09-07-2002, 10:15 PM
The New Balls were being "hyped"

Who says they are to be the Williams sisters in drag?!

Leave 'em be...

Nimi
09-07-2002, 10:15 PM
btw wen did i attack the WTA that u see a need to defend it? :confused:

Chloe le Bopper
09-07-2002, 10:19 PM
If you aren't a fan of ATP, the I'm sorry, but why are you here?

I'm sure you dont appreciate people going into WTAworld and crapping about the state of the womens game, so why be a hypocrit?

I could easily go wtaworld on you, and say that your whole problem is being xenophobic and not happy with the fact that the best young players aren't American.

But this isn't wtaworld, now is it?

Tennis Fool
09-07-2002, 10:23 PM
This is a statement from Pat McEnroe, which I agree with (of course you don't have to, but it just reinforces what I believe)...

I was very disappointed with the final of the French Open. I have concerns that the past two Grand Slam champions are solid players but not in my mind someone who should be Grand Slam champions.

The fact that we've had eight different singles champions in the past eight Grand Slam tournaments is a bit troubling. I've always been positive about the depth of men's tennis. But maybe there are too many tournaments, and the best players are not able to play their best at the major tournaments.

With that said, I don't have the answer yet. The season is too long. So maybe we need to look at shortening the season and have the best players playing at their best when it counts. Although it's certain that men's tennis is deeper than it's ever been...

Tennis Fool
09-07-2002, 10:24 PM
If you aren't a fan of ATP, the I'm sorry, but why are you here?
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I appreciate a well thought out argument, so please don't put words in my mouth that I didn't post...

Nimi
09-07-2002, 10:25 PM
Well now either Pete (Wimby 2000) or Andre (Aus 2001) will win one so people will stop the 8 out of 9 thing.

Gonzo Hates Me!
09-07-2002, 10:25 PM
Tennis Fool, I actually agree with that statement. It's hard to debate without a fight though. Sorry, hehe

Nimi
09-07-2002, 10:26 PM
btw, i might be wrong but didnt Lleyton Hewitt won both Wimby 2002 & US 2001? ;)

Tennis Fool
09-07-2002, 10:35 PM
i might be wrong but didnt Lleyton Hewitt won both Wimby 2002 & US 2001?
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Yes, but that Pat Mac statement was made right before Wimby 2002.

I know he was glad (as was I) that Hewitt won and broke the streak...

Nimi
09-07-2002, 10:40 PM
Who cares about Pat Mac's statements? I mean, really, its all Roddick Roddick Roddick & occasionally Agassi & Ferrero is clay or something

tennischick
09-07-2002, 10:46 PM
i agree with Tennis Fool to some extent. the New Balls are not delivering. or when they win -- like Johansson and Nalbandian -- they quickly disappear. it then comes back to these two old drayhorses to redeem the tour. as much as i adore Agassi, i'm not looking forward to yet another Agassi-Android battle. it's so done. move over already. i'd like to see some of these new balls develop the performance consistency of either drayhorse. Hewitt is the closest to that but he seems to have peaked and i honestly expect it to be all downhill from here as the exertion of his style of play manages to catch up with him.

things are quite different on the WTA as Tennis Fool points out. the younger players have stepped up to the challenge and are delivering. in fact just today i was thinking that it would be so much more interesting if the tours matched and players like Seles and ASV got into real shape and showed the young 'uns a thing or two. i'd like to believe that experience can always compensate for age -- within reason of course -- but this doesn't seem to be the case on the WTA side of the fence.

as for the personal attacks, i deplore them. if folks have a problem with how much Tennis Fool is posting, put him or her on ignore.

TennisHack
09-08-2002, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by hitman
:wavey: Hackie ;)



Hey, hitman :kiss:

Geez this thread has grown!!

TennisHack
09-08-2002, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by Tennis Fool
This is a statement from Pat McEnroe, which I agree with (of course you don't have to, but it just reinforces what I believe)...

I was very disappointed with the final of the French Open. I have concerns that the past two Grand Slam champions are solid players but not in my mind someone who should be Grand Slam champions.

The fact that we've had eight different singles champions in the past eight Grand Slam tournaments is a bit troubling. I've always been positive about the depth of men's tennis. But maybe there are too many tournaments, and the best players are not able to play their best at the major tournaments.

With that said, I don't have the answer yet. The season is too long. So maybe we need to look at shortening the season and have the best players playing at their best when it counts. Although it's certain that men's tennis is deeper than it's ever been...

I'm sure someone has already responded to this, but what the hell.

Patrick McEnroe is a wanker. I don't understand where he gets this nonsense about who "deserves" to win a Slam and who doesn't. I mean, it's not like the Aussie Open was just handed to Thomas Johnasson--he had to play seven matches, against very good and tough players, just like everyone else.

How could depth be bad? I just don't understand. When someone dominates it gets very boring very quickly. I do agree that the season is packed too full, but no one is forcing the "best players" to play every week. And just FYI, JohnnyMac has been spouting about that long before little bro . . . .

Lily
09-08-2002, 05:08 AM
As someone said earlier, why are we so impatient? Can't we just enjoy the past and present now. The future will happen soon enough.

luvbadboys
09-08-2002, 05:24 AM
If it's not one thing it's the other. When the older generation retires and the new generation steps up there'll be a whole new set of complaints making the round. They have to sell papers I guess. We true fans of men's tennis will still be around praising/bashing/debating and generally loving men's tennis I think that's pretty much all that counts.

If the f*****g b*****s in charge of the ATP could drop dead and an actual fan of the game as opposed to a businessman were in charge we would not have some of the PR problems Men's tennis has now

Vera
09-08-2002, 06:13 AM
I agree, ppl will always have something to complain about no matter what.

But I don't get it. What do ppl expect ATP to do if not promoting the NEW BALLS, cross their fingers and pray to hope Andre and Pete to play for another 10 years? Is really not up to them to create a rivalry between 2 when there's so many good players in the field. Or do they expect these new balls to come out of the gate and shot to the top, just because they got the ATP blessing to be part of the New Ball?

Tennis Fool
09-08-2002, 06:22 AM
Vera,

They could start by letting fans have balls that are tossed into the stands (like they do in baseball) instead of having them retrieved, never to be used again.

Can we get some fun celebrity exhibitions aired like Justin Timberlake vs. Roddick on a court by the beach. Golf does this stuff all of the time.

What about a tennis parade of champions prior to the US Open?

Let Tommy wear that SHIRT.

I agree with Badboys, ATP needs to be more creative in marketing.

Vera
09-08-2002, 06:57 AM
Sure, they could do more. But when you say this ˇ§This is what's wrong with the ATP. They've marketed these young BALLZ who continually fail to deliverˇ¨. It seems to me that you think the New Balls is a failure. I think itˇ¦s all the more important to promote the players when the Agassi generation is going to an end. If you think celebrity tennis on TV will draw more fans, then you have to first established them as celebrities, donˇ¦t you think? Even Roddick, who has done nothing much so far (except winning several small tournaments) are getting known to the general public, in that sense, I think New Balls campaign is quite a success. (Ooops, just couldnˇ¦t resist to give Roddick a shot here.):D

Experimentee
09-08-2002, 12:09 PM
Just because Pete and Andre are older than the rest of the tour doesnt mean they cant still play well. I think they both played great. This question should have come up after this years Wimbledon, where Hewitt won and he only had to beat one top ten player!

Chloe le Bopper
09-08-2002, 07:11 PM
Tennis Fool, seeing as you have posted nothing (that I have read) about mens tennis, I find it impossible to beleive that you are a fan.

If people long for the days of Lendl, McEnroe, Edberg etc, that is what the VCR is for. And the seniors tour ;)


Who cares about Pat Mac's statements? I mean, really, its all Roddick Roddick Roddick & occasionally Agassi & Ferrero is clay or something

Pat only talks about Ferrero if Cliff brings him up, and even then he is disrespectful and rude untill Ferrero does somethign that forces a compliment.

Tennis Fool
09-08-2002, 07:25 PM
Tennis Fool, seeing as you have posted nothing (that I have read) about mens tennis, I find it impossible to beleive that you are a fan.

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Rebecca, what are you talking about???

luvbadboys
09-08-2002, 08:16 PM
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH MEN'S TENNIS IF IT BOTHERS ANYONE DON'T WATCH!

I have questions about the ate of the new balls too (except hewitt) but I would never dismiss them. New balls got to the finals of OZ (Marat), the finals of French(JCF) the finals of Wimby(Hewitt) not to mention that new bals have quite a few masters titles/ finals between them so if old balls got to 1, I repeat ONE slam final it is not the end of the world.

A true men's tennis fan knowing this would not be so flippant about the acomplishments of the new balls.

We do have to worry about Roddick though.