Looking to your player box to confirm a line call. Should it be allowed? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Looking to your player box to confirm a line call. Should it be allowed?

save ausdecline
01-25-2009, 12:01 AM
In the match between Monfils and Almagro, Monfils played a wonderful forehand down the line shot. After contemplating the ,line call, Almagro looks to his player box and decides to challenge. The umpire doesn't let Almagro challenge the line call. This is not in the rule book. Referring to player box is allowed.

However, should confirming line calls by consulting the player box be allowed?

Kolya
01-25-2009, 12:05 AM
Norm Chryst made up his own rules.

save ausdecline
01-25-2009, 12:11 AM
so it aint from the rules

Xenosys
01-25-2009, 12:11 AM
Not really because it affects the player's ability to make up their own mind about the line call or lack of one. It's also like a second opinion before you make an official challenge which is unfair, and as far as I know consulting with coaches during a match is against the laws of the game.

save ausdecline
01-25-2009, 12:13 AM
Not really because it affects the player's ability to make up their own mind about the line call or lack of one. It's also like a second opinion before you make an official challenge which is unfair, and as far as I know consulting with coaches during a match is against the laws of the game.

Reminds me of Dudi Sela secretly doing something with his phone.

Vin Judah
01-25-2009, 12:13 AM
In the match between Monfils and Almagro, Monfils played a wonderful forehand down the line shot. After contemplating the ,line call, Almagro looks to his player box and decides to challenge. The umpire then enforces the rule book by not letting Almagro challenge the line call.

Should confirming line calls by consulting the player box be allowed?

i saw this also. the thing that happened here was that almagro waited way too long before he decided he wanted to challenge the call.

save ausdecline
01-25-2009, 12:17 AM
if not referring line calls to player box was not allowed. it would be pretty hard to enforce. cos someone might be looking to player box for reassurance.

In my view, it has to be allowed.

Vin Judah
01-25-2009, 12:19 AM
if not referring line calls to player box was not allowed. it would be pretty hard to enforce. cos someone might be looking to player box for reassurance.

In my view, it has to be allowed.

the same problem is with coaching. it's pretty hard for the umpires to control what the coaches are saying to there players in foreign languages..

Ivanatis
01-25-2009, 12:23 AM
I don't like it. But I agree that it's hard to enforce. Maybe it would be a good solution to include it in the umpire's area of discretion.

habibko
01-25-2009, 12:25 AM
what I know for sure that it's from the rules is that challenging should take place in a "timely" manner, this is quite an ambiguous term and it is based solely on the umpire's judgement of the time a player spent before asking for a challenge, such a subjective rule can be used/abused in many different ways IMO.

maybe this is what Norm Chryst based his decision on, I haven't seen the incident so I can't say for sure.

ORGASMATRON
01-25-2009, 12:29 AM
Of course it shouldnt, thats coaching. Dumb thread actually.

Mechlan
01-25-2009, 12:32 AM
Tennis is an individual sport. It's up to the player whether to challenge, not anyone else. Any help on deciding qualifies as coaching.

For sure this is a tough rule to enforce though, but in Almagro's case he turned his back to the net to talk to his group before deciding to challenge. Right call made by Norm Chryst. Unfortunate that Almagro made a big deal out of it and lost his head totally after that.

save ausdecline
01-25-2009, 12:33 AM
of course its coaching, but can it be enforced

save ausdecline
01-25-2009, 12:34 AM
Of course it shouldnt, thats coaching. Dumb thread actually.

of course its coaching, but can it be enforced

Kolya
01-25-2009, 01:10 AM
Almagro didn't really take that long to make the challenge.

Diprosalic
01-25-2009, 01:15 AM
it should be banned. hawk eye should be called immediately

El Legenda
01-25-2009, 01:15 AM
allow that and next thing you know..players are hiring people to sit in the stands around the arena at all lines. :lol:

L James
01-26-2009, 03:44 AM
At the coin toss for the Murray vs Verdasco match (which Chryst is umpiring also) he explained the Hawk Eye challenge and said "Any questions?". Couldn't hear what Murray said but you got the gist of it as Chryst responded with a laugh "Yes you gotta be quick, no looking at the coaches box". Murray with a cheeky line I'm sure. Funny guy :yeah:

Forehander
01-26-2009, 06:26 AM
There's nothing much you can do about it.

Snoo Foo
01-26-2009, 06:41 AM
coaching is strategy, line calling is not strategy. it shouldn't be up to the players to call their own lines, why the hell would they have all these line judges in the first place? coaching is "serve out wide" or "stop slicing" or whatever, not just saying whether you saw a ball as in or out. if the coach yells out "challenge" and they don't waste a bunch of time dicking around, why not let him ask his box? Or ask the crowd even? The player isn't supposed to be worrying about calling his own lines. give him 5 seconds or whatever and if his coach says go for it within that time, why not? What they shouldn't be allowed to do is ask the umpire, check the mark, stand around with hands on hips looking perplexed, then have a 2 minute debate with the coach.

Mechlan
01-26-2009, 08:11 AM
coaching is strategy, line calling is not strategy. it shouldn't be up to the players to call their own lines, why the hell would they have all these line judges in the first place? coaching is "serve out wide" or "stop slicing" or whatever, not just saying whether you saw a ball as in or out. if the coach yells out "challenge" and they don't waste a bunch of time dicking around, why not let him ask his box? Or ask the crowd even? The player isn't supposed to be worrying about calling his own lines. give him 5 seconds or whatever and if his coach says go for it within that time, why not? What they shouldn't be allowed to do is ask the umpire, check the mark, stand around with hands on hips looking perplexed, then have a 2 minute debate with the coach.

With the current rules, challenging is a strategy. It wouldn't be if the players would have unlimited challenges.

Bernard Black
01-26-2009, 10:35 AM
Pathetic that full-grown men have to rely on inspiration from their coaches to make a simple decision. Save that kind of shit for the WTA, but for the men, it should be banned, yes. As previously mentioned, it's an individual sport, once you're out on court it's you, the opponent and the umpire - no one else.

Snoo Foo
01-26-2009, 10:40 AM
Pathetic that full-grown men have to rely on inspiration from their coaches to make a simple decision. Save that kind of shit for the WTA, but for the men, it should be banned, yes. As previously mentioned, it's an individual sport, once you're out on court it's you, the opponent and the umpire - no one else.

:secret: except the ballboys, and the linesmen, and the trainers... if it's an individual sport, why bother with umpires or ballboys? they should have to pick up their own balls too, why rely on inspiration from school children to hold their balls for them?

Bernard Black
01-26-2009, 11:41 AM
:secret: except the ballboys, and the linesmen, and the trainers... if it's an individual sport, why bother with umpires or ballboys? they should have to pick up their own balls too, why rely on inspiration from school children to hold their balls for them?

The ballboys don't give the players tips what to do in the match which is what I thought we were discussing here. I'll still give you 10 points for your observational skills though :)

Snoo Foo
01-26-2009, 07:59 PM
The ballboys don't give the players tips what to do in the match which is what I thought we were discussing here. I'll still give you 10 points for your observational skills though :)

if a player turns his ankle and the trainer comes out and tells him he should have it taped, is that not also a tip? Telling someone whether you saw the ball out is not a tip, or if it is the entire concept of umpires and linesmen and hawkeye is based on other people (and machines) giving the players tips.

iSzavay.
01-26-2009, 09:49 PM
No, it's ridiculous :o

Raquel
01-26-2009, 09:56 PM
No, it's ridiculous :o
I see you have Dokic in your avatar. I am really happy for her, but she's pretty bad for this herself ;) If for the most part the umpires are letting the players do it, you can't really blame them.

bjurra
01-27-2009, 02:21 AM
There's nothing much you can do about it.

Ehh? Even the fool Norm Chryst was able to do something about it!

bjurra
01-27-2009, 02:22 AM
if a player turns his ankle and the trainer comes out and tells him he should have it taped, is that not also a tip? Telling someone whether you saw the ball out is not a tip, or if it is the entire concept of umpires and linesmen and hawkeye is based on other people (and machines) giving the players tips.

Wow, your post was so stupid it literally made my head spin!

partygirl
01-27-2009, 02:54 AM
i think it should be allowed as long as there is a limit to challenges.

Tankman
01-27-2009, 03:00 AM
if a player turns his ankle and the trainer comes out and tells him he should have it taped, is that not also a tip? Telling someone whether you saw the ball out is not a tip, or if it is the entire concept of umpires and linesmen and hawkeye is based on other people (and machines) giving the players tips.

That's not the point. The principle here is that players are not and should not be allowed to seek any help/assistance from their support group that would give them an advantage - especially in GS where the WTA coaching rule does not apply. Getting advice from linesmen, trainers etc. isn't the same as they are supposed to be unbiased officials. Allowing players to ask their box to confirm a line call undermines that principle way too much to be allowed.

Snoo Foo
01-27-2009, 03:03 AM
ah I don't see it as an advantage, since hawkeye is going to be the determining factor anyway, but what about just asking some random strangers in the audience? should that be allowed?

Action Jackson
01-27-2009, 03:10 AM
Norm, what a man.

Tankman
01-27-2009, 10:39 AM
ah I don't see it as an advantage, since hawkeye is going to be the determining factor anyway, but what about just asking some random strangers in the audience? should that be allowed?

As far as I know that's not against the rules :shrug:

Good luck to them if they try to do that though :lol:

Bernard Black
01-27-2009, 10:58 AM
I think we have our solution, the line call should be decided via telephone vote. Democracy rules, hell yeah!

reggie1
01-27-2009, 11:05 AM
I think we have our solution, the line call should be decided via telephone vote. Democracy rules, hell yeah!
Yes or ask the audience, phone a friend or 50/50. I'd like to see ask the audience used a bit more personally, especially in matches featuring Stepanek. No bias there. :devil:
Also, if we all vote by telephone for 25p each time, the money could go to the ATP and then help tennis survive the credit crunch. The ATP could then be investigated like ITV for rigging votes and fixing matches thus promoting so much more media coverage/interest in the sport. Bob's your uncle and fanny's your aunt!
I'm off to solve third world debt now over a sandwich and a cup of tea.

Bernard Black
01-27-2009, 11:41 AM
Yes or ask the audience, phone a friend or 50/50. I'd like to see ask the audience used a bit more personally, especially in matches featuring Stepanek. No bias there. :devil:
Also, if we all vote by telephone for 25p each time, the money could go to the ATP and then help tennis survive the credit crunch. The ATP could then be investigated like ITV for rigging votes and fixing matches thus promoting so much more media coverage/interest in the sport. Bob's your uncle and fanny's your aunt!
I'm off to solve third world debt now over a sandwich and a cup of tea.

Make Jonathan Ross ATP President and we're sorted ;)

All the non-British people won't have a clue what we're talking about so we better leave it at that!

bluefork
01-27-2009, 12:15 PM
Players should hire new line judge coaches. They would station them on all four sides of the court, and if they're not sure whether or not to challenge, they can just look at the line judge coach.

(I'm available for this position and I have excellent credentials, if any players read this)

MurrayFan1
01-27-2009, 12:56 PM
I understand this and I don't. I understand it as they seek their coaches/corner for advice, but what advantages do coaches/their corners have in terms of pure eyesight? Are they armed with binoculars or something?!

Bernard Black
01-27-2009, 01:03 PM
I understand this and I don't. I understand it as they seek their coaches/corner for advice, but what advantages do coaches/their corners have in terms of pure eyesight? Are they armed with binoculars or something?!

Yeah, it seems crazy.

I mean, these guys have been playing tennis every day for the last 15-20 years of their lives, they must know the dimensions of the court like the back of their hand so you'd think they'd be able to make the call for themselves.

scoobs
01-27-2009, 01:08 PM
They might as well be allowed to - it's impossible to police effectively and as has been said, I don't know exactly what advantage it's supposed to provide anyway - plenty of times coaches say "yes, challenge" and have been dead wrong.