Tsonga the biggest threat to the top four? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Tsonga the biggest threat to the top four?

ORGASMATRON
12-25-2008, 06:54 PM
With the Australian Open coming up Tsonga is the most likely player to make an impact on the top four in my opinion. He has showed last year he's game is big enough to to do well in Australia and if it wasnt for injury he might well have been in the position Murray is now. Do you think there is someone else who has a chance against the top four and win down under? Show your work :)

NinaNina19
12-25-2008, 07:21 PM
Pretty much.

Kolya
12-25-2008, 09:07 PM
Maybe.

richie21
12-25-2008, 11:35 PM
Yes!
I mean,the guy finished in 6th place last season despite missing 2 Grand Slams(and especially Wimbledon,his game being made for Grass).....that's pretty sick!
If you except the injuries,the only thing which really disappointed me with Tsonga last season was his showing against Federer in Madrid: i really hoped he would have putted in a much better showing,especially as he was in great form.

malisha
12-25-2008, 11:47 PM
Yes!
he only thing which really disappointed me with Tsonga last season was his showing against Federer in Madrid: i really hoped he would have putted in a much better showing,especially as he was in great form.

yea that one was awful...liked his action on one Feds smash though

richie21
12-25-2008, 11:53 PM
yea that one was awful...liked his action on one Feds smash though


Yep.

GlennMirnyi
12-26-2008, 12:04 AM
I'm a huge fan of the Tsonganator, but I don't think he's consistent enough to be such a threat to the top four.

I also don't think he'll do that well in Australia this year. I only hope he gets to Wimbledon in form.

Henry Chinaski
12-26-2008, 12:28 AM
I share Glenn's pessimism regarding Tsonga but looking at the other contenders you could seriously consider here I think it's fair enough to regard him as either the biggest threat or very close to it.

You could make a case for Nalbandian given that he matches up better against Fed than Jo does but he's also more likely to be gubbed early I think.

Davydenko is the most likely to go really deep but his problems against Federer and more recently against Djokovic make it hard to consider him the biggest threat. He'd need to avoid those 2 in the draw to have a chance but in betting terms I'd say he's the best value outsider.

It all depends on where you put your emphasis here

chances of taking out 2 or more of the top 4 to take the title should the chance arise (Fat Dave)

v

likelihood of going deep enough to get a shot at them in the first place. (Davydenko)

Tsonga sits somewhere in between.

Ivanatis
12-26-2008, 12:49 AM
There's no clear no°5 player right now, so I would say no. In terms of potential maybe, but then he has these injury problems, which have downgraded him and probably still do. There are a bunch of players I can well imagine to finish 2009 above Tsonga, though I would love to see him in the top5 or even better.

Only talking about Melbourne is too difficult for me at this stage (without the draw).

Johnny Groove
12-26-2008, 01:06 AM
If Jo can keep himself healthy enough to play a full season, who knows

martine2
12-26-2008, 06:24 AM
If Jo can keep himself healthy enough to play a full season, who knows

That's my feeling too and I'd love to see it happen, but I also agree with Gu that he lacks a bit of consistency.

Pfloyd
12-26-2008, 07:04 AM
No.

I think an on-form Nalbandian is a bigger threat.

Simon also has more consistency than Tsonga so I'd put him as a higher threat through-out the year.

Of course, in a one-of game, Tsonga is very dangerous.

ORGASMATRON
12-26-2008, 10:51 AM
You all make good points thanks for the replies, i was going to pt up a poll with all the other i think may be contenders to make inroads into the top 4 at Oz but i still dont know how to do it lol. Anyone care to tell me? Anyhow here is the players i would have put up: Tsonga, Davydenko, Roddick, Del Potro, Nalbandian, Simon, Gasquet and Safin.

timafi
12-26-2008, 06:50 PM
No.

I think an on-form Nalbandian is a bigger threat.

Simon also has more consistency than Tsonga so I'd put him as a higher threat through-out the year.

Of course, in a one-of game, Tsonga is very dangerous.

how so?:confused:Simon's best finish at a major this year was the 4th round I believe
what's his record in Melbourne?
he plays well on the dirt and Gasquet gave him a set this year at Wimbedon but other than that what has he done on grass?

Tsonga went out early at the USO this year because he had just comeback from knee surgery and was rusty as hell

Tsonga has the game to play well and I mean pretty darn well on 3 different surfaces:the plexicusion in Australia;the grass at Wimbledon and at the USO on hard courts

Federer,Nadal,Djokovic,Tsonga and Murray and I'll add Roddick with an easy draw(away from these guys) unless he chokes the way he did against Kohlschreiber this year are my favorites heading to Australia

we can forget about Murray on clay and Tsonga too

Wimbledon is either for Federer or Nadal;next in line are Roddick;Djokovic,Murray;Gasquet;Tsonga and Hewitt if he's healthy and has an easy draw he'll go deap.Win it?hell nah!

the USO:Federer,Djokovic,Murray,Nadal;Roddick;Tsonga;D avydenko(I have to add him after 2 semis there losing to Federer every time)

GlennMirnyi
12-26-2008, 06:55 PM
Simon never went past the 3rd round in a slam.

duong
12-27-2008, 09:18 AM
Imo, except if he gets injured, Del Potro will be the clear number 5 this year.

And eventually, he will be the biggest threat to the top-4, but maybe not this year.

Tsonga is a clear threat in Wimbledon though, and in the Aus Open, if he plays as well as last year.

duong
12-27-2008, 09:24 AM
You all make good points thanks for the replies, i was going to pt up a poll with all the other i think may be contenders to make inroads into the top 4 at Oz but i still dont know how to do it lol. Anyone care to tell me? Anyhow here is the players i would have put up: Tsonga, Davydenko, Roddick, Del Potro, Nalbandian, Simon, Gasquet and Safin.

You can make two kinds of polls :

- who will be the number 5 in the end of 2009 ?

- who has the best chance to enter the top-4 in 2009 ?

(I would answer Del Potro for both questions, but these questions are different)

ORGASMATRON
12-27-2008, 12:21 PM
You can make two kinds of polls :

- who will be the number 5 in the end of 2009 ?

- who has the best chance to enter the top-4 in 2009 ?

(I would answer Del Potro for both questions, but these questions are different)

Yeah but i still dont know how to do it. I can see the option below for a poll but it doesnt allow you to create a poll.

ORGASMATRON
12-27-2008, 12:27 PM
Simon never went past the 3rd round in a slam.

Yeah Simon isnt nearly as big a threat as Tsonga. He'll really struggle to do win a slam, very few french players can ever win a slam. Tsonga is one of those few.

ORGASMATRON
12-27-2008, 12:31 PM
No.

I think an on-form Nalbandian is a bigger threat.

Simon also has more consistency than Tsonga so I'd put him as a higher threat through-out the year.

Of course, in a one-of game, Tsonga is very dangerous.

Tsonga beat Nalbandian in a play off to qualify for the Masters Cup this year in the Paris final, so id definetly put Tsonga ahead of him. The thing is fat Dave lacks in the mental department as well. He's pretty much a choker when it comes to slams.

duong
12-27-2008, 01:03 PM
Yeah but i still dont know how to do it. I can see the option below for a poll but it doesnt allow you to create a poll.

You make "create a new thread" then it seems that you have to write an introduction message, and click on "poll" and say how many different answers you want
... and then you can create the poll.

Be careful since you cannot correct it once you have created it.

Crazy Girl
12-27-2008, 01:05 PM
No,...... Nikolay.

ORGASMATRON
12-27-2008, 01:43 PM
You make "create a new thread" then it seems that you have to write an introduction message, and click on "poll" and say how many different answers you want
... and then you can create the poll.

Be careful since you cannot correct it once you have created it.

Ok thats what i did before but they dont give you a place to put your options. When i looked at the preview there wasnt a poll showing either. So when you submit your post is that when you get to create the options? I still dont get it lol. :confused:

Renaud
12-27-2008, 01:48 PM
So when you submit your post is that when you get to create the options?
yep :)

ORGASMATRON
12-27-2008, 01:54 PM
No,...... Nikolay.

Davydenko isnt as big a threat as Tsonga i think. He doesnt beat the top four on a regular basis. Tsonga has shown that he can beat the djoker and rafa on hard, but i still think he would struggle against the greatest of all time. Davydenko on the other hand really struggles against the top four. Least he beat Murray in the masters though, but then again Murray isnt in the same league as the top 3 yet.

Horatio Caine
12-27-2008, 01:56 PM
Nah, I think the Nadal, Federer, Djokovic and Murray quartet is a closed group for the moment (barring injury). But #5 position is open to anyone right now, although Davydenko is still a solid favourite, for me.

Renaud
12-27-2008, 02:00 PM
I'd say favorites for 5th position are
Del Potro
Davydenko
Tsonga
Roddick
Nalbandian
Gasquet

In this order.

richie21
12-27-2008, 02:07 PM
Davydenko isnt as big a threat as Tsonga i think. He doesnt beat the top four on a regular basis. Tsonga has shown that he can beat the djoker and rafa on hard, but i still think he would struggle against the greatest of all time. Davydenko on the other hand really struggles against the top four. Least he beat Murray in the masters though, but then again Murray isnt in the same league as the top 3 yet.

He also beat Murray. ;)

ORGASMATRON
12-27-2008, 02:08 PM
yep :)

Ok thanks ;)

ORGASMATRON
12-27-2008, 02:15 PM
Nah, I think the Nadal, Federer, Djokovic and Murray quartet is a closed group for the moment (barring injury). But #5 position is open to anyone right now, although Davydenko is still a solid favourite, for me.

Well i was actually asking in terms of the Oz Open who had the biggest chance aside from the top four. Tsonga can definitely beat Rafa, Djoker and Murray there.

Tyler_Durden
12-27-2008, 02:21 PM
No.

I think an on-form Nalbandian is a bigger threat.

Simon also has more consistency than Tsonga so I'd put him as a higher threat through-out the year.

Of course, in a one-of game, Tsonga is very dangerous.

If you seriously think that simon is a bigger threat than tsonga then you should be bitchslapped in the face with a shoe.

Biggest threats to the top 4 are del potro, tsonga and maybe davydenko if he can perform in the slams.

«Ivan»
12-27-2008, 02:27 PM
There's no clear no°5 player right now,



there's no clear no.4 yet.scot has to be 4+ more than 1/4 season.
tsonga?hope not,never.

^^simon is bigger threat to j.w.tsonga

ORGASMATRON
12-27-2008, 02:27 PM
If you seriously think that simon is a bigger threat than tsonga then you should be bitchslapped in the face with a shoe.

Biggest threats to the top 4 are del potro, tsonga and maybe davydenko if he can perform in the slams.

:rolls:

scoobs
12-27-2008, 02:30 PM
I'd have to say Tsonga and then Del Potro are the likely biggest threats, although with Tsonga especially I share GlennMirnyi's doubts that he can be as consistent as he needs to be to really raise the threat level beyond "dangerous irritant". He need to put in a full injury-free season for a start and see what he can do week-in, week-out.

As for Del Potro, he now needs to start showing he can claim some big scalps and reach the back end of bigger tournaments.

«Ivan»
12-27-2008, 02:32 PM
I'd have to say Tsonga and then Del Potro are the likely biggest threats,

dismiss simon is for some kind of:haha:thread

Jimnik
12-27-2008, 02:33 PM
Biggest threat to all except Federer who's a tough match-up for him.

Simon is Federer's biggest threat outside the top 4.

scoobs
12-27-2008, 02:35 PM
Simon is being underestimated a little, he's shown he can beat Federer, Nadal and Djokovic, as he did last season, so he's not exactly useless, and he made the final of one AMS event and the semis of another, as well as winning a couple of titles here and there. But his slam record is crap and his style of play means he needs to work extremely hard to take down good players. Like Murray had to, I think he needs to learn to be less passive as a default approach and seek to be in charge more often. I think his serve needs a bit of work too.

duong
12-27-2008, 02:45 PM
Simon can beat great players but he also can lose against bad players.

As Tsonga actually :lol:

But even more than Tsonga.

Jimnik
12-27-2008, 02:47 PM
Interesting that Nalbandian no longer gets mentioned.

scoobs
12-27-2008, 02:50 PM
Interesting that Nalbandian no longer gets mentioned.
How long has it been since he's been consistent for more than a couple of weeks at a time?

Jimnik
12-27-2008, 02:53 PM
How long has it been since he's been consistent for more than a couple of weeks at a time?
Doesn't usually stop the "SuperMotivatedFitDave = God" arguments.

I would argue he's the biggest threat to Nadal on clay.

«Ivan»
12-27-2008, 03:01 PM
unfortunately,nalby is past tense.

Clydey
12-27-2008, 08:13 PM
there's no clear no.4 yet.scot has to be 4+ more than 1/4 season.
tsonga?hope not,never.

^^simon is bigger threat to j.w.tsonga

There is a clear number 4. If the points difference between 4 and 5 doesn't tell you that, the results should.

ORGASMATRON
12-27-2008, 09:04 PM
Yeah i think Murray has pretty much made the nr 4 spot his own right now.

Henry Chinaski
12-27-2008, 09:07 PM
Interesting that Nalbandian no longer gets mentioned.

partly because most people seem to have misinterpreted the question. the OP was asking about the Australian Open specifically and not the world rankings come the end of the season.

Nathaliia
12-27-2008, 09:13 PM
As for Nalbandian, he's never showed up in the great form during AO, as for Simon, yes he looks like the most reasonable threat IMO, although this season is going to be the real test for him if he's a one season Schuettler or he's there for longer, and as for Tsonga, he also can be a threat if not injured - no big philosophy at this one.

malisha
12-27-2008, 09:15 PM
Simon is Federer's biggest threat outside the top 4.

yea...along with Roddick,Karlo,Blake,Stepanek and many others...:D

NinaNina19
12-27-2008, 09:24 PM
As for Nalbandian, he's never showed up in the great form during AO, as for Simon, yes he looks like the most reasonable threat IMO, although this season is going to be the real test for him if he's a one season Schuettler or he's there for longer, and as for Tsonga, he also can be a threat if not injured - no big philosophy at this one.

Simon sucks, there's no way he's a threat at the slams. He's never gotten past the third round.

ORGASMATRON
12-27-2008, 09:34 PM
yea...along with Roddick,Karlo,Blake,Stepanek and many others...:D

I dont think any of those that you mentioned is a threat to The Master. Simon doesnt really threaten Roger he just got lucky twice when he was off form. Simon plays like Hewitt and Roger loves playing against Hewitt. I have a feeling the next time they meet he will crush Simon. As for the others you mentioned it almost made me laugh. Do you know what is Roddick's h2h record against Roger?! :haha: Roger's biggest threat is probably Murray, then Rafa and then Djokobitch.

arm
12-27-2008, 09:35 PM
IF Tsonga stays healthy, IF he plays close to his best and IF the top 4 do not use their all their capacities. xD

Way too many "if"s. :lol: But of course he can beat all the top 4, that just doesn't mean he can be considered a real threat.

Nathaliia
12-27-2008, 09:35 PM
Simon sucks, there's no way he's a threat at the slams. He's never gotten past the third round.
This is true, but you can't deny the fact he's been constantly improving and his ego must have boosted up after 2008 finished with a nice Shanghai run.

ORGASMATRON
12-27-2008, 09:39 PM
Simon sucks, there's no way he's a threat at the slams. He's never gotten past the third round.

I agree lol and his game his so that he'll be really hard pressed to win a slam where they play best out of 5 sets. I mean he should start doing better at the slams but he wont win one.

malisha
12-27-2008, 09:41 PM
I dont think any of those that you mentioned is a threat to The Master. Simon doesnt really threaten Roger he just got lucky twice when he was off form. Simon plays like Hewitt and Roger loves playing against Hewitt. I have a feeling the next time they meet he will crush Simon. As for the others you mentioned it almost made me laugh. Do you know what is Roddick's h2h record against Roger?! :haha: Roger's biggest threat is probably Murray, then Rafa and then Djokobitch.

did you watch The Master - Alves, The Master - Muller or The Master - RRH

when he play like a piece of shit(99% of his recent matches) ANYONE is a threat;)

Sunset of Age
12-27-2008, 09:42 PM
IF Tsonga stays healthy, IF he plays close to his best and IF the top 4 do not use their all their capacities. xD

Way too many "if"s. :lol:

Yeah... that's the problem with ALL these kind of threads, as well as the 'who will win tournament X'-category. But well, we wouldn't have anything to discuss off season, wouldn't we? :D

arm
12-27-2008, 09:47 PM
Yeah... that's the problem with ALL these kind of threads, as well as the 'who will win tournament X'-category. But well, we wouldn't have anything to discuss off season, wouldn't we? :D

Exactly what I thought when I saw those popularity conquests. :lol:

What I mean is, Tsonga is as much as a threat as Davydenko or Nalbandian. And like someone posted just a couple of posts before, pretty much anyone is a threat when they are playing like sh*t. :shrug:

ORGASMATRON
12-27-2008, 09:55 PM
Yeah... that's the problem with ALL these kind of threads, as well as the 'who will win tournament X'-category. But well, we wouldn't have anything to discuss off season, wouldn't we? :D

I think these threads are nice, gives us a chance to discuss tennis and what could be better?!:drool:

Sunset of Age
12-27-2008, 10:00 PM
I think these threads are nice, gives us a chance to discuss tennis and what could be better?!:drool:

Yes - with a friendly atmosphere at least. :)

simplet
12-27-2008, 10:10 PM
IF Tsonga stays healthy, IF he plays close to his best and IF the top 4 do not use their all their capacities. xD

Way too many "if"s. :lol: But of course he can beat all the top 4, that just doesn't mean he can be considered a real threat.

He needs to stay healthy all right, but why would he need to play his best and for the others to play like shit? His head-to-head is only negative against Federer in 2008, against whom he lost a match coming back from injury, and Nadal was lucky not to be 0-2 against him (Tsonga served for the match at Indian Wells). You could argue that he beat Djoko in Paris himself playing way below his best level.

He beat them all fair and square, except Federer. He didn't need any special favors then, so why couldn't he beat them again?

ORGASMATRON
12-27-2008, 10:15 PM
He needs to stay healthy all right, but why would he need to play his best and for the others to play like shit? His head-to-head is only negative against Federer in 2008, against whom he lost a match coming back from injury, and Nadal was lucky not to be 0-2 against him (Tsonga served for the match at Indian Wells). You could argue that he beat Djoko in Paris himself playing way below his best level.

He beat them all fair and square, except Federer. He didn't need any special favors then, so why couldn't he beat them again?

Finally someone with some sense :) Tsonga is a huge threat in Oz. He's probaly the favorite against Rafa, Nole AND Murray. Only the King stands squarely in his way :worship:

arm
12-27-2008, 10:16 PM
He needs to stay healthy all right, but why would he need to play his best and for the others to play like shit? His head-to-head is only negative against Federer in 2008, against whom he lost a match coming back from injury, and Nadal was lucky not to be 0-2 against him (Tsonga served for the match at Indian Wells). You could argue that he beat Djoko in Paris himself playing way below his best level.

He beat them all fair and square, except Federer. He didn't need any special favors then, so why couldn't he beat them again?

I never said that. :p I knew what he did and how he did it. But just reading the title of the thread "Tsonga the biggest threat to the top 4", my answer is "I can't see a reason why him and not any other player".

But that is just my impartial (? and I am not even sure about that :lol:) opinion. And I do understand why some people do consider him a real threat. It's all about different analysis.

malisha
12-27-2008, 10:18 PM
Finally someone with some sense :) Tsonga is a huge threat in Oz. He's probaly the favorite against Rafa, Nole AND Murray. Only the King stands squarely in his way :worship:

:haha:

arm
12-27-2008, 10:18 PM
Finally someone with some sense :) Tsonga is a huge threat in Oz. He's probaly the favorite against Rafa, Nole AND Murray. Only the King stands squarely in his way :worship:

OK, now that is funny and IMO senseless. The rankings do have a meaning.

ORGASMATRON
12-27-2008, 10:32 PM
OK, now that is funny and IMO senseless. The rankings do have a meaning.

Not really. Tsonga was injured so that wouldnt have helped his ranking much. Besides that he has a winning record against Murray if you take into account their meeting in a challenger. He leads Nole 3-1. He beat Nadal 2,3 and 2 in Oz this year. Who is making sense now??? :cool:

arm
12-27-2008, 10:47 PM
Not really. Tsonga was injured so that wouldnt have helped his ranking much. Besides that he has a winning record against Murray if you take into account their meeting in a challenger. He leads Nole 3-1. He beat Nadal 2,3 and 2 in Oz this year. Who is making sense now??? :cool:
One thing is saying he has a good chance against the 3 of them. The other is saying he is favourite.

He only has a winning record against Nole (Nole sucked in paris :spit: and tanked in Shangai, I'll give you the Thailand one) and yet Nole won the most important match between them.

As for Murray, everyone one can see that the Murray of the season ending is not the same Murray that Tsong beat in AO. :lol: Far from that.

I can also admit that he totally rocked in AO with Nadal, but that still doesn't make him favourite against the #1... :shrug:

So yes, saying that Tsonga is favourite against Murray, Nadal and Nole is silly/senseless.

ORGASMATRON
12-27-2008, 10:59 PM
One thing is saying he has a good chance against the 3 of them. The other is saying he is favourite.

He only has a winning record against Nole (Nole sucked in paris :spit: and tanked in Shangai, I'll give you the Thailand one) and yet Nole won the most important match between them.

As for Murray, everyone one can see that the Murray of the season ending is not the same Murray that Tsong beat in AO. :lol: Far from that.

I can also admit that he totally rocked in AO with Nadal, but that still doesn't make him favourite against the #1... :shrug:

So yes, saying that Tsonga is favourite against Murray, Nadal and Nole is silly/senseless.

Nah if you get whipped three times in a row by someone it says a lot, actually i think its getting close to the point now where Tsonga is owning Nole. And i said he is PROBABLY the favorite against those players. Actually i think you are the silly one here bud...

arm
12-27-2008, 11:01 PM
Nah if you get whipped three times in a row by someone it says a lot, actually i think its getting close to the point now where Tsonga is owning Nole. And i said he is PROBABLY the favorite against those players. Actually i think you are the silly one here bud...

I can handle being silly. :angel: It's still better than blind. But anyway, every person is entitled to an opinion. :shrug:

ORGASMATRON
12-27-2008, 11:11 PM
I can handle being silly. :angel: It's still better than blind. But anyway, every person is entitled to an opinion. :shrug:

:lol:

richie21
12-27-2008, 11:25 PM
As for Murray, everyone one can see that the Murray of the season ending is not the same Murray that Tsong beat in AO. :lol: Far from that.


Not really sure the current Murray is much much better than the Murray of the beginning of last season.
Murray was already playing well at the beginning of last season ,winning 2 titles and already beating Federer (in Dubai if i'm not mistaken).
And don't forget he was one of the few players to trouble a bit Tsonga in last AO.
For all we know,this Murray could have already made at least a GS 1/2 final in last AO had he not faced Tsonga in first round.

arm
12-27-2008, 11:34 PM
Not really sure the current Murray is much much better than the Murray of the beginning of last season.
Murray was already playing well at the beginning of last season ,winning 2 titles and already beating Federer (in Dubai if i'm not mistaken).
And don't forget he was one of the few players to trouble a bit Tsonga in last AO.
For all we know,this Murray could have well made at least the 1/2 final had he not faced Tsonga in first round.

Interesting point. I haven't thought about it that way. Actually, I did not remember that Murray actually had a good start of the season.

So, do you think Tsonga is favourite if he happens to meet Murray in the AO again? To ba honest, that is something about Tsonga that still hasn't convinced me yet. :shrug: Like I said previously, it may not be and impartial opinion. :o

richie21
12-27-2008, 11:38 PM
So, do you think Tsonga is favourite if he happens to meet Murray in the AO again? To ba honest, that is something about Tsonga that still hasn't convinced me yet. :shrug: Like I said previously, it may not be and impartial opinion. :o

I would say it would be 51-49 in Murray's advantage but i would also say the result of this match would mostly depend on Tsonga.
As much as i'm a fan of Andy,i think Tsonga's got a bigger game than him when he is in form.
Even when he played at his very best this year,i never really had the feeling that Andy was unplayable for his opponents whereas i sometimes had this feeling with Tsonga in some of his matches.
Andy's game is less prone to UEs than Tsonga's game though.

arm
12-27-2008, 11:44 PM
I would say it would be 51-49 in Murray's advantage but i would also say the result of this match would mostly depend on Tsonga.
As much as i'm a fan of Andy,i think Tsonga's got a bigger game than him when he is in form.
Andy's game is less prone to UEs than Tsonga's game though.

I personally prefer Andy's game, probably because it's more effective. And I am not fond of big servers :rolleyes:. And I don't mean to be unfair to Tsonga, I know that is game is so not just service.

Anyway, in a GS match my money would be on Murray if it happened now. :)

GlennMirnyi
12-28-2008, 01:57 AM
One thing is saying he has a good chance against the 3 of them. The other is saying he is favourite.

He only has a winning record against Nole (Nole sucked in paris :spit: and tanked in Shangai, I'll give you the Thailand one) and yet Nole won the most important match between them.

As for Murray, everyone one can see that the Murray of the season ending is not the same Murray that Tsong beat in AO. :lol: Far from that.

I can also admit that he totally rocked in AO with Nadal, but that still doesn't make him favourite against the #1... :shrug:

So yes, saying that Tsonga is favourite against Murray, Nadal and Nole is silly/senseless.

This post is pretty incongruent.

Let's start then:
1- He does have a winning record against Fakervic and if that wasn't his first GS final, he'd have beaten Fakervic senseless in that match.
2- Why? Murray was in a pretty good form at the beginning of the season.
3- Nadull isn't the #1.

The only sensible point of yours is that he's not a favorite against Murray.

GlennMirnyi
12-28-2008, 01:59 AM
I would say it would be 51-49 in Murray's advantage but i would also say the result of this match would mostly depend on Tsonga.
As much as i'm a fan of Andy,i think Tsonga's got a bigger game than him when he is in form.
Even when he played at his very best this year,i never really had the feeling that Andy was unplayable for his opponents whereas i sometimes had this feeling with Tsonga in some of his matches.
Andy's game is less prone to UEs than Tsonga's game though.

That's pretty obvious. Tsonga has probably the second biggest game of the tour right now.

Tyler_Durden
12-28-2008, 02:14 AM
Not really sure the current Murray is much much better than the Murray of the beginning of last season.
Murray was already playing well at the beginning of last season ,winning 2 titles and already beating Federer (in Dubai if i'm not mistaken).
And don't forget he was one of the few players to trouble a bit Tsonga in last AO.
For all we know,this Murray could have already made at least a GS 1/2 final in last AO had he not faced Tsonga in first round.

Disagree with you here richie, the Murray of the beginning of the year was mainly all defence and whenever he tried to attack he looked like a duck out of water but at the end of the year because of the confidence he had gained off the back of his summer hardcourt wins he began to attack a hell of alot more and I never felt as though he was going to miss everytime he tried to hit his shots flat.

If I am being completely honest I really dont think that Andy is fully commited and confident of being more attacking with his game and it might just take a pretty devastating defeat to take him back to the way he used to play i.e losing from 2 sets up in a slam or losing early again in the AO.

HarryMan
12-28-2008, 02:16 AM
One thing is saying he has a good chance against the 3 of them. The other is saying he is favourite.

He only has a winning record against Nole (Nole sucked in paris :spit: and tanked in Shangai, I'll give you the Thailand one) and yet Nole won the most important match between them.

As for Murray, everyone one can see that the Murray of the season ending is not the same Murray that Tsong beat in AO. :lol: Far from that.

I can also admit that he totally rocked in AO with Nadal, but that still doesn't make him favourite against the #1... :shrug:

So yes, saying that Tsonga is favourite against Murray, Nadal and Nole is silly/senseless.

:spit: Tsonga owns Nole. Stop making excuses, I mean his only slam title win was when Fed had serious mono, so you shouldn't be making excuses for him...

Clydey
12-28-2008, 02:43 AM
This post is pretty incongruent.

Let's start then:
1- He does have a winning record against Fakervic and if that wasn't his first GS final, he'd have beaten Fakervic senseless in that match.
2- Why? Murray was in a pretty good form at the beginning of the season.
3- Nadull isn't the #1.

The only sensible point of yours is that he's not a favorite against Murray.

Murray dropped out of the top 20 at the start of the season. Winning MM titles in Doha and Marseille is not what I consider good form, given that I don't think he managed even a quarter final at the early MS events.

Put simply, Murray reigned over the average players at MM events and got found out in the MS events when the opposition was better.

Halba
12-28-2008, 03:28 AM
tsonga doesn't move as well as any of the top 4, this was apparent from watching him post-injury

also tsonga makes more UE , this was apparent from a very poor masters cup showing.

MIMIC
12-28-2008, 04:36 AM
This post is pretty incongruent.

Let's start then:
1- He does have a winning record against Fakervic and if that wasn't his first GS final, he'd have beaten Fakervic senseless in that match.
2- Why? Murray was in a pretty good form at the beginning of the season.
3- Nadull isn't the #1.

The only sensible point of yours is that he's not a favorite against Murray.

Doubtful.

ORGASMATRON
12-28-2008, 09:40 AM
This post is pretty incongruent.

Let's start then:
1- He does have a winning record against Fakervic and if that wasn't his first GS final, he'd have beaten Fakervic senseless in that match.
2- Why? Murray was in a pretty good form at the beginning of the season.
3- Nadull isn't the #1.

The only sensible point of yours is that he's not a favorite against Murray.

Nadull :haha: Agreed with your last sentence, its hard to say probably 50/50. But at Oz against Nadull and Djokobitch he's gotta be the favorite.

richie21
12-28-2008, 11:17 AM
tsonga doesn't move as well as any of the top 4, this was apparent from watching him post-injury

also tsonga makes more UE , this was apparent from a very poor masters cup showing.


Very poor masters cup showing??
For his first TMC,he won one match and lost two very very close matches(lot of tie-breaks).I don't call it a very poor showing.

Dougie
12-28-2008, 11:22 AM
tsonga doesn't move as well as any of the top 4, this was apparent from watching him post-injury

also tsonga makes more UE , this was apparent from a very poor masters cup showing.

All true. He is not consistent enough to challenge the big boys yet.

oranges
12-28-2008, 03:49 PM
All true. He is not consistent enough to challenge the big boys yet.

Why the hell not? Who are these extremely consistent big boys he cannot challenge? Nadal, who's actually happy to have made two HC slam semis, in both of which he got properly spanked. Federer, who's been losing to guys he probably never thought he'll be losing to a year ago. Djokovic who has lost to him three times since the AO. Or Murray, who has a month longer streak of good play than him? Stop throwing around cliches such as consistency without it meaning anything. Aside from Federer, against whom he lost the only match they played, he obviously can kick out any of the other three out of a tournament, which I would consider a threat. If their fans are hoping someone else will kick him out before that, he's a threat to them. Me, I'd like him to draw any of three more than Kolya, enough said.

RogerFan82
12-28-2008, 04:06 PM
When Tsonga is on, he can spank anyone including the top 4. He has enough weapons to do that. He doesn't have to keep the ball in play and wait for errors. Therefore he is a BIG FUCKING THREAT TO THE BIG 4 !!!

Dougie
12-28-2008, 04:19 PM
Why the hell not? Who are these extremely consistent big boys he cannot challenge? Nadal, who's actually happy to have made two HC slam semis, in both of which he got properly spanked. Federer, who's been losing to guys he probably never thought he'll be losing to a year ago. Djokovic who has lost to him three times since the AO. Or Murray, who has a month longer streak of good play than him? Stop throwing around cliches such as consistency without it meaning anything. Aside from Federer, against whom he lost the only match they played, he obviously can kick out any of the other three out of a tournament, which I would consider a threat. If their fans are hoping someone else will kick him out before that, he's a threat to them. Me, I'd like him to draw any of three more than Kolya, enough said.

Getting hostile, huh? First of all, Federer played in three GS finals last year, winning one of them. Pretty consistent, wouldn´t you say? You say Nadal played in two hc GS semis? Yeah, and he won on grass and clay as well as the Olympics on hc. That´s pretty high level, I´d say. As for Djokovic, yeah, he lost to Tsonga three times since the AO, but won their only GS final meeting. That´s not bad.
Also, Tsonga´s playing style is more on/off, than any in the top 4. On a good day, he can beat pretty much anyone, but the difference between his good day and bad day is still pretty big. He has a lot of work to do with his moving, and he seems to be vulnerable to injuries, which might be correlated with his playing style. In any case, injuries at a young age like his are not a good sign.
This is what I meant with consistency. I hope Tsonga proves me wrong, but I want to see him in a couple more GS semis, until I can call him a consistent threat, not just a threat in an individual match. He has a lot of points to defend in january, we´ll see how he does.

Dougie
12-28-2008, 04:25 PM
When Tsonga is on, he can spank anyone including the top 4. He has enough weapons to do that. He doesn't have to keep the ball in play and wait for errors. Therefore he is a BIG FUCKING THREAT TO THE BIG 4 !!!

That´s the point right there. WHEN HE IS ON. If you want to be a threat to the top 4, you have to find a way to win crucial matches even when you´re off. It doesn´t matter how many weapons you have if you´re playing like shit and none of them are working. Whereas Fed and Nadal can win matches while playing like hell, I haven´t seen Tsonga do that on a regular basis just yet.

RogerFan82
12-28-2008, 04:45 PM
That´s the point right there. WHEN HE IS ON. If you want to be a threat to the top 4, you have to find a way to win crucial matches even when you´re off. It doesn´t matter how many weapons you have if you´re playing like shit and none of them are working. Whereas Fed and Nadal can win matches while playing like hell, I haven´t seen Tsonga do that on a regular basis just yet.

Dude , give hime a break. He was injured for most of the year !! Let's see him play a full season, injury free, and we'll find out how good he is. :)

Also one other important point. You might get lucky the odd day and upset one of the big four in a best of 3 sets. But Tsonga beat Murray and Nadal in a best of 5 in 2008. Beating rafa in a best of 5, is pretty damn tough. Tsonga did that, Infact he spanked rafa. Also Tsonga beat the Djoker thrice in 2008. So yes, outside the top 4, he is the biggest threat.

I'm sure Nadal, Djoker and Murray will be very happy to avoid Tsonga, in their quarter. Fed might be happier avoiding the likes of Simon, rather than Tsonga, in his quarter, since he struggles against pushers, more often.

richie21
12-28-2008, 05:43 PM
That´s the point right there. WHEN HE IS ON. If you want to be a threat to the top 4, you have to find a way to win crucial matches even when you´re off. It doesn´t matter how many weapons you have if you´re playing like shit and none of them are working. Whereas Fed and Nadal can win matches while playing like hell, I haven´t seen Tsonga do that on a regular basis just yet.

That's nevertheless what Tsonga regularly did at the end
of last season(see some of his wins in Bercy).
Above his tennistic weapons,the most crucial thing for me with Tsonga is his immense will to win.
Each time you see him play,you can clearly see the fire in his eyes.
That's what sets him apart from other potential threats for the top 4 like Davydenko or Nalbandian for instance.

ORGASMATRON
12-28-2008, 06:12 PM
That´s the point right there. WHEN HE IS ON. If you want to be a threat to the top 4, you have to find a way to win crucial matches even when you´re off. It doesn´t matter how many weapons you have if you´re playing like shit and none of them are working. Whereas Fed and Nadal can win matches while playing like hell, I haven´t seen Tsonga do that on a regular basis just yet.

Cant agree with you here Dougie. The fact that Tsonga has done so well being injured should tell you even more about how dangerous he is. I say it again:

1) 3-1 against nole
2) owned rafa 2,3 and 2 at Oz this year
2) beat murray in 4 at Oz this year
4) The Great One is the only one he has trouble with :worship:

Now tell me how is Tsonga not the biggest threat to the top 4 down under??? :confused:

Crazy Girl
12-28-2008, 07:06 PM
Davydenko isnt as big a threat as Tsonga i think. He doesnt beat the top four on a regular basis. Tsonga has shown that he can beat the djoker and rafa on hard, but i still think he would struggle against the greatest of all time. Davydenko on the other hand really struggles against the top four. Least he beat Murray in the masters though, but then again Murray isnt in the same league as the top 3 yet.Dear ruanz33, the question is concerning at the "top four". Yes, you're right; Davydenko isn't defeating the top 3 so often....(never Roger!) but the strength of Nikolay is the "regularity". He's very often in 1/8, 1/4, 1/2; and for this reason that he's since so many years in the club of "the top". Number five, number four....and also number 3; but people seems to forget that.....:wavey::wavey:C i a o!

ORGASMATRON
12-28-2008, 07:10 PM
Dear ruanz33, the question is concerning at the "top four". Yes, you're right; Davydenko isn't defeating the top 3 so often....(never Roger!) but the strenght of Nikolay is the "regularity". He's very often in 1/8, 1/4, 1/2; and for this reason that he's since so many years in the club of "the top". Number five, number four....and also number 3; but people seems to forgive that.....:wavey::wavey:C i a o!

Yes i agree Davydenko is very consistent and deserves credit for that :)

oranges
12-28-2008, 07:10 PM
Getting hostile, huh? First of all, Federer played in three GS finals last year, winning one of them. Pretty consistent, wouldn´t you say? You say Nadal played in two hc GS semis? Yeah, and he won on grass and clay as well as the Olympics on hc. That´s pretty high level, I´d say. As for Djokovic, yeah, he lost to Tsonga three times since the AO, but won their only GS final meeting. That´s not bad.
Also, Tsonga´s playing style is more on/off, than any in the top 4. On a good day, he can beat pretty much anyone, but the difference between his good day and bad day is still pretty big. He has a lot of work to do with his moving, and he seems to be vulnerable to injuries, which might be correlated with his playing style. In any case, injuries at a young age like his are not a good sign.
This is what I meant with consistency. I hope Tsonga proves me wrong, but I want to see him in a couple more GS semis, until I can call him a consistent threat, not just a threat in an individual match. He has a lot of points to defend in january, we´ll see how he does.

Annoyed with meaningless cliches, if you want to be exact, not really hostile and it was not meant just as a response to you, it's something appearing constantly. It's one thing arguing lack of consistency to win a slam, reach No1 or anything else that basically requires a very high level of play over certain time and quite another to consider whether someone is a threat or not. I bet the top guys are very happy he's No6 and they won't meet him in the first few rounds, and with good reason.
Injury free and with consistency you speak of we'll probably be talking about multiple slam winner, spanking most who come his way. As it is, he's JUST a threat delivering an occasional spanking ;)
As for the consistency of the top 4, my point was that it is often exaggerated, just as the inconsistency of some others is. I doubt Federer would boast consistency this year, even though he did exceptionally well in slams given the ups and downs in his level of play. Nadal's consistency will not win him a HC slam, unless Gods are kind to him and whoever he meets both in semis and finals, if not earlier, simply has a bad day and succumbs to his relentless persistence by making too many errors. No, best of three matches are not comparable so Olympics or masters do not say much. Djokovic quite obviously lacked the consistency you speak of. It's not really that black and white, is it?

GlennMirnyi
12-28-2008, 07:21 PM
That's nevertheless what Tsonga regularly did at the end
of last season(see some of his wins in Bercy).
Above his tennistic weapons,the most crucial thing for me with Tsonga is his immense will to win.
Each time you see him play,you can clearly see the fire in his eyes.
That's what sets him apart from other potential threats for the top 4 like Davydenko or Nalbandian for instance.

Also Tsonga's got such a huge serve, the #1 weapon to save you when you're not playing well.

duong
12-28-2008, 09:11 PM
Above his tennistic weapons,the most crucial thing for me with Tsonga is his immense will to win.
Each time you see him play,you can clearly see the fire in his eyes.
That's what sets him apart from other potential threats for the top 4 like Davydenko or Nalbandian for instance.

Yes, but that also makes him lose sometimes when he does not play well,
because he gets very much frustrated about that and loses his nerves (he lost twice to Benneteau because of that : he was in a day "off" and instead of concentrating and trying another tactic, he lost his nerves ; against Robredo in the US Open, he was also not able of constantly applying the tactics his coach had prepared for him, and also of keeping a constant concentration, which, his coach had insisted, was the key-point against Robredo).

Keeping their calm and concentrating on the bases of the game instead of losing their nerves and wishing they'd play better is also what makes the best players who they are.

Tsonga has this drawback in common with Safin who had thought he was a genious in 2000, and could not suffer not being able to always play like that.

I like Tsonga's game, but his mental attitude also has some drawbacks (for instance, in France, people were astonished because he had come back from 0-40 in the final game against Nalbandian in Bercy, but how did he arrive to 0-40 ? Precipitation and unforced errors, he had forgotten to respect the game and to concentrate first).

ORGASMATRON
12-28-2008, 09:28 PM
Yes, but that also makes him lose sometimes when he does not play well,
because he gets very much frustrated about that and loses his nerves (he lost twice to Benneteau because of that : he was in a day "off" and instead of concentrating and trying another tactic, he lost his nerves ; against Robredo in the US Open, he was also not able of constantly applying the tactics his coach had prepared for him, and also of keeping a constant concentration, which, his coach had insisted, was the key-point against Robredo).

Keeping their calm and concentrating on the bases of the game instead of losing their nerves and wishing they'd play better is also what makes the best players who they are.

Tsonga has this drawback in common with Safin who had thought he was a genious in 2000, and could not suffer not being able to always play like that.

I like Tsonga's game, but his mental attitude also has some drawbacks (for instance, in France, people were astonished because he had come back from 0-40 in the final game against Nalbandian in Bercy, but how did he arrive to 0-40 ? Precipitation and unforced errors, he had forgotten to respect the game and to concentrate first).

Arnt you being a bit hard on the man? I mean he is the first french player in a long time that actually looks like he can win a slam. Most french players would do well to have his will to win. I think the french tend to be hard on their players. Tsonga deserves a lot of credit for his mental attitude coming from a country where a will to win is in short supply.

GlennMirnyi
12-28-2008, 10:34 PM
Yes, but that also makes him lose sometimes when he does not play well,
because he gets very much frustrated about that and loses his nerves (he lost twice to Benneteau because of that : he was in a day "off" and instead of concentrating and trying another tactic, he lost his nerves ; against Robredo in the US Open, he was also not able of constantly applying the tactics his coach had prepared for him, and also of keeping a constant concentration, which, his coach had insisted, was the key-point against Robredo).

Keeping their calm and concentrating on the bases of the game instead of losing their nerves and wishing they'd play better is also what makes the best players who they are.

Tsonga has this drawback in common with Safin who had thought he was a genious in 2000, and could not suffer not being able to always play like that.

I like Tsonga's game, but his mental attitude also has some drawbacks (for instance, in France, people were astonished because he had come back from 0-40 in the final game against Nalbandian in Bercy, but how did he arrive to 0-40 ? Precipitation and unforced errors, he had forgotten to respect the game and to concentrate first).

1- he lost to Boredo because he was totally off the game... he was just coming back from months out injured... what's your point?
2- Safin has played much better than in 2000 later in his career.
3- Well, it was the first time he was serving for a big tournament. What do you expect? Him becoming a robot and not having nerves at all?

Clydey
12-28-2008, 10:43 PM
Tsonga is a strange player to watch. He comes up with some of the most ridiculous drop volleys, but sometimes he comes into the net and makes an absolute mess of a volley. I don't mean just mishitting the ball. In 2 of every 10 volleys he attempts, he'll make such a mess of a volley that you begin to wonder whether his successful drop volleys are down to luck. Obviously they aren't.

Has anyone else noticed what I'm talking about? He'll either come up with a magical volley or he'll look like he's just picked up a racquet for the first time.

moon language
12-28-2008, 10:51 PM
Tsonga had one tournament where he played out of his mind which he didn't even win, and then had some success filling in for fat dave in year end clean up duty after having months off while the top players were wearing themselves out midseason. Let's see if he can put together a solid string of events during the heart of the season before worrying about whether or not he's the biggest threat to the top four.

GlennMirnyi
12-28-2008, 10:58 PM
Tsonga is a strange player to watch. He comes up with some of the most ridiculous drop volleys, but sometimes he comes into the net and makes an absolute mess of a volley. I don't mean just mishitting the ball. In 2 of every 10 volleys he attempts, he'll make such a mess of a volley that you begin to wonder whether his successful drop volleys are down to luck. Obviously they aren't.

Has anyone else noticed what I'm talking about? He'll either come up with a magical volley or he'll look like he's just picked up a racquet for the first time.

Well, sometimes he makes Frauderer-like backhand approaches, that's true.

NinaNina19
12-28-2008, 11:17 PM
Tsonga had one tournament where he played out of his mind which he didn't even win, and then had some success filling in for fat dave in year end clean up duty after having months off while the top players were wearing themselves out midseason. Let's see if he can put together a solid string of events during the heart of the season before worrying about whether or not he's the biggest threat to the top four.

Last year was his breakthrough year, the reason why he wasn't so consistent was because he was out for more than half the year. It's impressive that he's ranked 6th in the world considering how much he missed.

Tutu
12-29-2008, 12:08 AM
Nope, Gilles is. :worship:

richie21
12-29-2008, 12:11 AM
Nope, Gilles is. :worship:

:haha:

GlennMirnyi
12-29-2008, 12:15 AM
Simon is a threat to anyone. Up to the 2nd round. Then it's no problem.

l_mac
12-29-2008, 12:37 AM
Tsonga :lol:

He's very close to being my favourite player. I hope to see him in the Top 4 by Wimbledon, and I think he can do it. Only injury will prevent it.

ORGASMATRON
12-29-2008, 08:00 AM
Nope, Gilles is. :worship:

:haha:

Fired Up!
12-29-2008, 08:48 AM
With more consistency, yes. :)

duong
12-29-2008, 09:48 AM
Arnt you being a bit hard on the man? I mean he is the first french player in a long time that actually looks like he can win a slam. Most french players would do well to have his will to win. I think the french tend to be hard on their players. Tsonga deserves a lot of credit for his mental attitude coming from a country where a will to win is in short supply.

I don't intend to be hard at him. Actually I would love him to be able to play more often as he did last year in Melbourne.

I just say that he has this relative problem he has to work on.

On the mental point of view, I think that Simon is the best French player.

Because to be very good mentally, you need to be both fire and ice.

In Melbourne last year, Tsonga managed to get this attitude : physical dynamism, will, but mental calm and concentration on tactics. He was a good mixture of fire AND ice.

But later in the year, he even got more fire but he often lost the ice.

The will or the desire he has but the desire is not enough.

Sometimes you need to be able to dominate that desire and hold it in a brain structure. For instance, I read that against Robredo, he came back from injury and so on ... but I saw this match, and he had played well against Moya, and he was not far from Robredo : his main problem in that particular match was that he couldn't focus on the tactics and concentration his coach had advised him.

And you also need not to get frustrated when the reality does not fit your desire.

That has been Safin's problem for a very long time.
And I'm afraid that might be Tsonga's problem as it was against Benneteau last year.

He has a lot of desire, that's great, but I also hope he can learn how to control this desire and keep it in a brain structure.

Nadal is the best to make this perfect mixture.

Elena.
12-29-2008, 09:57 AM
^ Nice post,I totally agree .