Federer Sampras serve comparison [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Federer Sampras serve comparison

mdhallu
09-12-2007, 12:58 AM
Just wondering what everyone thought...

World Beater
09-12-2007, 01:00 AM
what a joke

Jlee
09-12-2007, 01:01 AM
Sampras had the better serve, by itself. Federer's serve is better at setting up the rest of his game, not always getting the winner. Although lately Federer's ace numbers have been insane...

I think both had/have serves that complement their respective games.

dmit424
09-12-2007, 01:02 AM
I think that Sampras's actually serve was certainly better. As far as who's the better service-game player, we would need to see a stat for % of service games help, preferably not counting any matches for either player in tournaments they played before winning their first Slam. I would think Sampras would still be tops.


Federer's return game is better, of course, but I know that wasn't your question.

Rogiman
09-12-2007, 01:03 AM
Sampras' serve was better no matter what way you choose to look at it.

:retard:

GlennMirnyi
09-12-2007, 01:09 AM
You can't compare anyone to Sampras when it comes to serve.

Forehander
09-12-2007, 01:24 AM
though im not saying people are doing it now, but what i hope is people don't super over rate sampras's serve in the future. Sampras was a gutzy player, always going for the the second serve ace as well so it's a little bit different. But i'd still say Sampras's is better though.

GlennMirnyi
09-12-2007, 01:27 AM
Overrate what? Sampras had not only a reliably strong serve but also unequalled placement.

nikita13
09-12-2007, 01:28 AM
Rhetorical question, surely. Sampras was a natural serve and volley player. He had/s the GOAT serve :)

Sjengster
09-12-2007, 01:31 AM
I'm pretty sure this is one debate that doesn't need dwelling upon.

RagingLamb
09-12-2007, 01:34 AM
I don't know....I think Hewitt and Safin might have served better than him in 2000 and 2001. Plus if Roger and Nadal were around he wouldn't be able to hit so many aces.

His serve is definitely overrated.

megadeth
09-12-2007, 01:36 AM
sampras hands down...

he had the intimidation factor... i remember that when he breaks a player, we all think that the set is over since he holds serve so damn well...

Richard_from_Cal
09-12-2007, 01:41 AM
Tilden.

mdhallu
09-12-2007, 01:41 AM
I don't know....I think Hewitt and Safin might have served better than him in 2000 and 2001. Plus if Roger and Nadal were around he wouldn't be able to hit so many aces.

His serve is definitely overrated.

Where did you get Hewitt from...haha. Hewitt always had that weak kick serve due to his height. I think that was also one of Agassi's downfall in the grand scheme of things...his lack of height..he never had a good serve. Its no coincidence that Sampras and Federer are both 6'1"..that seems to be the ideal height in tennis

RagingLamb
09-12-2007, 01:46 AM
Where did you get Hewitt from...haha. Hewitt always had that weak kick serve due to his height. I think that was also one of Agassi's downfall in the grand scheme of things...his lack of height..he never had a good serve. Its no coincidence that Sampras and Federer are both 6'1"..that seems to be the ideal height in tennis

Yes I agree with you about the height thing:

http://www.menstennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=5999004&postcount=24

caleb_123
09-12-2007, 01:48 AM
that's a easy one for me, Sampras would be the better server he won grandslams with it, federer is not that far behind him, he's being doing a good impersonation of Sampras lately serving big on the big points for instance if his serve didn't work at wimby Nadal would be the new champion i have no doubt about that.

Forehander
09-12-2007, 01:52 AM
Overrate what? Sampras had not only a reliably strong serve but also unequalled placement.

im saying in future. people might exaggerate it like crazy.

celia
09-12-2007, 03:07 AM
Sampras of course. He was the Best Server Ever. But dont take my word for it, ask Agassi.

MisterQ
09-12-2007, 03:07 AM
Sampras, without question.

FedFan_2007
09-12-2007, 04:11 AM
Lately he's been the spitting image of Sampras with aces and unreturnables.

Marek.
09-12-2007, 05:49 AM
Sampras for sure. Fed's a better returner though.

Turquoise
09-12-2007, 06:04 AM
Sampras, hands down.

FedFan_2007
09-12-2007, 06:34 AM
Sampras was a better server early on(19-23), however from the same age on Fed has been just as good. Heck, 2nd serve aces happening with regularity these days. Even his service motion is almost a carbon copy. He has that "eel" effect going.

groundstroke
09-12-2007, 06:43 AM
Sampras.. obviously. But Federer's serve is getting better.

mickymouse
09-12-2007, 06:43 AM
Sampras, of course.

HNCS
09-12-2007, 07:13 AM
i'm a federer fan, and i say hands down sampras....

Apemant
09-12-2007, 08:52 AM
No contest, really. Sampras all the way.

The thing with Federer isn't that he is the best server or the best returner. He's just top 5 in both departments, whereas most other ppl are either great servers and poor returners (Roddick, Ljubo) or great returners and weak servers (Ferrer, Davydenko).

That's why I expect much from Murray, if he ever gets his head straight :devil:

KitinovRules
09-12-2007, 08:56 AM
Sampras absolutely. Pace and placement.

Federer has very good serve, but it is mainly a weapon for setting the point nicely.

LeChuck
09-12-2007, 10:00 AM
Sampras's serve comes out on top, although Federer's is still excellent.

sports freak
09-12-2007, 10:04 AM
You dont call him Pistol Pete for no reason!!may change to Shotgun Pete for obvious reasons!!

leng jai
09-12-2007, 10:43 AM
Volandri trumps them both left handed.

Mateya
09-12-2007, 10:45 AM
Is this a joke? :retard: How can you even compare Sampras serve with Fed?

:retard:

Adler
09-12-2007, 10:52 AM
Hard to say. When you think about winning points by serve - Sampras, but setting up the game - Federer

dragons112
09-12-2007, 10:57 AM
federer is still playing. the question itself is compiled in past tense therefore the question cannot be answered

HarryMan
09-12-2007, 11:06 AM
Sampras hands down !! His second serves were better than most Pro's first serve so it isn't even close for having such a discussion...

jcempire
09-12-2007, 03:34 PM
Sampras' serve was better no matter what way you choose to look at it.

:retard:

Agree. He alway serve well when He needs big point.

nanoman
09-12-2007, 04:19 PM
Sampras hands down !! His second serves were better than most Pro's first serve so it isn't even close for having such a discussion...

The biggest myth in tennis, ever !

rwn
09-12-2007, 04:33 PM
The biggest myth in tennis, ever !

Absolutely. The winning percentages of Sampras on his second serve were around 52/53 %.

MatchFederer
09-12-2007, 04:38 PM
The biggest myth in tennis, ever !

Agreed. Some peoples memories are very selective... it reeks as well. I hate it.


However, Sampras as we know pulled out great serves very often in the tight moments of matches.

EDIT: Bleh.. it doesn't matter actually when talking about serves. Sampras' ability to do that was due to mental strength.

Andres Guazzelli
09-12-2007, 04:41 PM
You can't compare anyone to Sampras when it comes to serve.
Ivanisevic had a better 1st serve. Sampras had a better 2nd.
Ivanisevic had a slightly better career stats on service games held (by probably 2% or so)

GlennMirnyi
09-12-2007, 04:45 PM
Ivanisevic had a better 1st serve. Sampras had a better 2nd.
Ivanisevic had a slightly better career stats on service games held (by probably 2% or so)

Big deal. Goran never put that 1st serves when he really had to.

MatchFederer
09-12-2007, 04:50 PM
Big deal. Goran never put that 1st serves when he really had to.

..Exactly, so it is a mental strength issue, not a serve issue .. = there is a good argument for Goran.

tennis_fan_2006
09-12-2007, 07:18 PM
Tournament Wimbledon
Round R16
Time 221 minutes
Winner Federer

Federer Sampras

Sevice Statistics
Aces 25 26
Double Faults 6 9
1st Serve Percentage 62% (113/181) 69% (132/189)
1st Serve Points Won 82% (93/113) 76% (101/132)
2nd Serve Points Won 51% (35/68) 45% (26/57)
Break Points Saved 81% (9/11) 78% (11/14)
Service Games Played 29 29

Statistics on Return

1st Return Points Won 23% (31/132) 17% (20/113)
2nd Return Points Won 54% (31/57) 48% (33/68)
Break Points Won 21% (3/14) 18% (2/11)
Return Games Played 29 29

Statistics on Points

Total Service Points Won 70% (128/181) 67% (127/189)
Total Return Points Won 32% (62/189) 29% (53/181)
Total Points Won 51% (190/370) 48% (180/370)


Going by the stats, its too close to call, Sampras outaced Federer but Federer took better care of his service games.

RagingLamb
09-12-2007, 08:12 PM
Tournament Wimbledon
Round R16
Time 221 minutes
Winner Federer

Federer Sampras

Sevice Statistics
Aces 25 26
Double Faults 6 9
1st Serve Percentage 62% (113/181) 69% (132/189)
1st Serve Points Won 82% (93/113) 76% (101/132)
2nd Serve Points Won 51% (35/68) 45% (26/57)
Break Points Saved 81% (9/11) 78% (11/14)
Service Games Played 29 29

Statistics on Return

1st Return Points Won 23% (31/132) 17% (20/113)
2nd Return Points Won 54% (31/57) 48% (33/68)
Break Points Won 21% (3/14) 18% (2/11)
Return Games Played 29 29

Statistics on Points

Total Service Points Won 70% (128/181) 67% (127/189)
Total Return Points Won 32% (62/189) 29% (53/181)
Total Points Won 51% (190/370) 48% (180/370)


Going by the stats, its too close to call, Sampras outaced Federer but Federer took better care of his service games.

if we were to assume that these stats represent how both players served during their whole careers, then I would say the two were close.

But of course that wouldn't be a reasonable assumption.

Himura
09-12-2007, 08:57 PM
The Federer serve is underrated

tennischick
09-12-2007, 09:49 PM
it's no accident that the Android's serve was called "The American Beauty". it made his opponents quake. Federer's serve -- when it's on -- is excellent. but he is not as intimidating a server as the Android.

Andi-M
09-12-2007, 09:55 PM
Pete easily.

Burrow
09-12-2007, 09:59 PM
Sampras

R.Federer
09-12-2007, 10:04 PM
Not possible to compare based on the stats above, because like with other things, the serve % depends on the quality of returners.

Anyway, Sampras's serve has become legendary and Federer isn't really singled out for his serve (although everyone recognizes it as being excellent and he gets a ton of free points off of it).

Alex999
09-12-2007, 10:14 PM
Pete of course.

stebs
09-12-2007, 10:52 PM
Sampras could've been a big server with that serve. I mean obviously he was but I mean he could've been a serve-machine type player with nothing else to his game and still been pretty damn good. Federer couldn't do that, his serve is good because it compliments his game so well.

l_mac
09-12-2007, 10:59 PM
Sampras. Has anyone said Federer?

edited, no. So everyone is in agreement! Alert the press.

stebs
09-12-2007, 11:01 PM
Sampras 2nd serve is probably the single most overrated shot in tennis history though.

:lol: at people saying he had two first serves. His winning percentage on that shot was average for sucha great player and the hype comes from the fact that he occasionally went for the shot and bombed down some aces vs Agassi. I'm not saying he didn't have a GOOD second serve but it's really not the incredible shot it's made out to be.

World Beater
09-12-2007, 11:02 PM
sampras had a great serve but it wasnt the greatest serve of all time. He is the greatest serve-volleyer of all time though.

stebs
09-12-2007, 11:03 PM
sampras had a great serve but it wasnt the greatest serve of all time. He is the greatest serve-volleyer of all time though.

Not the greatest serve. Though a great one.

Not the greatest volley. This is more debatable though, I would choose Edberg but Sampras is an option.

Overall though, I certainly agree and I think it's pretty hard to dispute.

l_mac
09-12-2007, 11:06 PM
Ah, posters are having to veer off topic to create debate!

I http://images.madnono.com/smilies/heart.gif MTF.

bokehlicious
09-12-2007, 11:26 PM
Sampras

mangoes
09-12-2007, 11:38 PM
Sampras

Kolya
09-13-2007, 12:45 AM
Sampras.

Kuhne
09-13-2007, 08:56 AM
When it was on, the best serve in tennis was allways Goran's

JimmyV
09-24-2008, 03:35 AM
Check this out, pretty cool

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npxP6Jej9iE&feature=related

finishingmove
09-24-2008, 03:39 AM
yea he's a pretty good copycat, but sampras' is still better ;)

GlennMirnyi
09-24-2008, 03:46 AM
It was even more alike before... check a video of Federer playing Agassi at Basel in 1998 I think. His running forehand was an exact copy of Sampras'.

Gnomey
09-24-2008, 03:57 AM
^^^ How has it changed?

GlennMirnyi
09-24-2008, 04:02 AM
It has, Federer has developed his own style, it's not more just a copycat stroke.

Gnomey
09-24-2008, 04:07 AM
No, I'm not trying to argue that it hasn't changed. :lol:
I'm no good at the technical side of things so I was asking you HOW it has changed.

federernadalfan
09-24-2008, 11:13 AM
cool clip, wasn't aware that they were so similar

Forehander
09-24-2008, 01:22 PM
lol Glenn's right. When he played against Agassi in Basel he played nearly exactly the same way as Sampras did technique-wise.

Corey Feldman
09-24-2008, 02:18 PM
alot of serves look the same - its just correct fundamentals

they did the same screen shot with Fed/Borg FH's and it looked the same

Bernard Black
09-24-2008, 03:45 PM
alot of serves look the same - its just correct fundamentals

they did the same screen shot with Fed/Borg FH's and it looked the same

Hmm, true. Very rare to see serving techniques as smooth as these two though, practically nothing can go wrong with those mechanics and for that reason they are very similar and it sets them apart from the much of the opposition in their respective eras.

Dougie
09-24-2008, 03:55 PM
alot of serves look the same - its just correct fundamentals

they did the same screen shot with Fed/Borg FH's and it looked the same

Karsten Braasch had an equally effective serve as those too, yet it looks totally different. How bizarre.:confused:

Dougie
09-24-2008, 04:03 PM
When it was on, the best serve in tennis was allways Goran's

The hardest serve is not always the best. All he could do with his serve was to hit it hard. He was not even close to having the rhythm and versatility of Sampras, for example.
Besides, the difference between Goran´s "on" and "off" was huge. He was lucky his "off" serve didn´t cost him the Wimbledon final against Rafter.

MisterQ
09-24-2008, 04:12 PM
lol Glenn's right. When he played against Agassi in Basel he played nearly exactly the same way as Sampras did technique-wise.

Some footage of this match (not great picture quality, unfortunately):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7F-Q9_bcaJU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8RqxLjk_mc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GipXOIxjXA8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azwIXsUasrM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SjZ51lXZs4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRZbKVFlI7Q

:cool:

ballbasher101
09-24-2008, 04:27 PM
Sampras was a better server but Federer is not far behind. Federer uses his serve so well, a lot of guys serve big but lack the disguise and placement that Federer has. Sampras was just a monster on the big points on serve.

GlennMirnyi
09-24-2008, 10:59 PM
No, I'm not trying to argue that it hasn't changed. :lol:
I'm no good at the technical side of things so I was asking you HOW it has changed.

Well, it hasn't changed too much technically, but Sampras had a different follow-through and a different style in general. Also Sampras used eastern as forehand grip, while Federer uses semi-western.

thrust
09-25-2008, 12:15 AM
The Federer serve is underrated

I AGREE.

rwn
09-25-2008, 06:17 AM
The Federer serve is underrated

Wimbledon 1998/2008:

Sampras 117 aces 48 double faults
Federer 111 aces 6 double faults

rosamunda
09-25-2008, 08:37 AM
Wimbledon 1998/2008:

Sampras 117 aces 48 double faults
Federer 111 aces 6 double faults

Federer's low double fault count is ridiculous! I know I'm always shocked when he serves one, let alone 2 in a match, because they're so rare, but I didn't realise they were THAT rare lol.

Gnomey
09-25-2008, 10:06 AM
48 double faults? Wow...that's a lot of free points given away.

Bernard Black
09-25-2008, 10:24 AM
48 double faults? Wow...that's a lot of free points given away.

Surprised me slightly too, but have to remember he belted a lot of second serves down as fast as the first serve. If we were to investigate further, I'm sure a lot of those DFs will have occurer when 40/30-0 up, we know Sampras rarely double faulted on pressure points. Federer hits the second serve at a safer pace but still 6 double faults is insanely low.

I expected more aces from Sampras. Perhaps we do look back at players with rose tinted specs from time to time. I'd be interested in his stats from previous years, I'm sure he must have hit more aces than that over the tournament and just had a slower year here.

keroni
09-25-2008, 10:56 AM
Federer rarely wins more than 55% of his second serves though. I'm sure Sampras had a much higher rate than that.

Commander Data
09-25-2008, 11:39 AM
Fed is the GOAT but Pete had the better serve.

rwn
09-25-2008, 12:11 PM
Federer rarely wins more than 55% of his second serves though. I'm sure Sampras had a much higher rate than that.

I looked at the ATP statistics and Sampras won more of his first serves, Federer more of his second serves.

rwn
09-25-2008, 12:30 PM
Surprised me slightly too, but have to remember he belted a lot of second serves down as fast as the first serve. If we were to investigate further, I'm sure a lot of those DFs will have occurer when 40/30-0 up, we know Sampras rarely double faulted on pressure points. Federer hits the second serve at a safer pace but still 6 double faults is insanely low.

I expected more aces from Sampras. Perhaps we do look back at players with rose tinted specs from time to time. I'd be interested in his stats from previous years, I'm sure he must have hit more aces than that over the tournament and just had a slower year here.

1993: 106 aces 39 df.
1994: 113 aces 22 df.
1995: 106 aces 35 df.
1997: 115 aces 17 df.
1999: 108 aces 28 df.
2000: 115 aces 53 df.

Bernard Black
09-25-2008, 12:34 PM
1993: 106 aces 39 df.
1994: 113 aces 22 df.
1995: 106 aces 35 df.
1997: 115 aces 17 df.
1999: 108 aces 28 df.
2000: 115 aces 53 df.

Thanks.

It makes for interesting reading - just looking at the stats you'd be forgiven for saying Federer's serve trumps Sampras'. Obviously there's more to it than that though.

stebs
09-25-2008, 01:01 PM
Federer rarely wins more than 55% of his second serves though. I'm sure Sampras had a much higher rate than that.

Wrong. Sampras had a second serve winning % of around 52 as has been stated in this thread. Feds is a couple mof nothces above this.

BodyServe
09-25-2008, 02:47 PM
Check this out, pretty cool

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npxP6Jej9iE&feature=related

The similarity isn't that great.Pretty disapointing video: the zoom isn't the same and most importantly the two serves aren't even taken from the same angle.
Take the Dent's serve, this is very similar to Sampras's.

Bernard Black
09-25-2008, 03:33 PM
The similarity isn't that great.Pretty disapointing video: the zoom isn't the same and most importantly the two serves aren't even taken from the same angle.
Take the Dent's serve, this is very similar to Sampras's.

You're kidding, mate? They are practically identical. Have a look at Roddick's serve to see something completely different, Federer and Sampras use the exactly the same technique. Unless your counting the Sampras foot point at the start as the difference :lol:

GlennMirnyi
09-25-2008, 03:39 PM
Wimbledon 1998/2008:

Sampras 117 aces 48 double faults
Federer 111 aces 6 double faults

Wimbledon 1998/2008
Sampras - never lost to a moonballer.
Federer - lost to a moonballer.

Sampras - played high class opponents.
Federer - plays mugs and clowns.

Next.

BodyServe
09-25-2008, 07:47 PM
You're kidding, mate? They are practically identical. Have a look at Roddick's serve to see something completely different, Federer and Sampras use the exactly the same technique. Unless your counting the Sampras foot point at the start as the difference :lol:

No, i'm dead serious. They are different, people are flattered by this video's synchronization. Your standard for "practically identical" is different than mine.
By the way did i say they are "completely different"?

Bernard Black
09-25-2008, 08:28 PM
No, i'm dead serious. They are different, people are flattered by this video's synchronization. Your standard for "practically identical" is different than mine.
By the way did i say they are "completely different"?

Fair enough, no worries :)

luie
09-26-2008, 12:23 AM
Wimbledon 1998/2008
Sampras - never lost to a moonballer.
Federer - lost to a moonballer.

Sampras - played high class opponents.
Federer - plays mugs and clowns.

Next.
In fairness the serve wasn't the reason he lost to a moonballer .I believe it was his ROS that let him down.

GlennMirnyi
09-26-2008, 12:52 AM
In fairness the serve wasn't the reason he lost to a moonballer .I believe it was his ROS that let him down.

The fact that he's a mug tactically explains it.

luie
09-26-2008, 01:15 AM
The fact that he's a mug tactically explains it.
True for that match & many more this year.:(

crude oil
09-26-2008, 04:01 AM
Surprised me slightly too, but have to remember he belted a lot of second serves down as fast as the first serve. If we were to investigate further, I'm sure a lot of those DFs will have occurer when 40/30-0 up, we know Sampras rarely double faulted on pressure points. Federer hits the second serve at a safer pace but still 6 double faults is insanely low.

I expected more aces from Sampras. Perhaps we do look back at players with rose tinted specs from time to time. I'd be interested in his stats from previous years, I'm sure he must have hit more aces than that over the tournament and just had a slower year here.

sampras was never that much of an ace machine...but he could put away the floaters from guys like goran, rusedski, rafter etc with his volley and from the baseline he was far superior to these players on grass.

sampras was a high risk server esp on seconds just like agassi was a high risk returner.

Pete did double on big pts but it was rare. People just dont remember them. Two matches - safin at montreal, rafter at usopen. i think he dubbed on mps of both matches. pete was just a better all round player than most guys and he didn't need to risk the second serve against players unless they had a respectable ROS like agassi.

Pete had a great serve in his time but even he started to feel the returning was getting better when he played safin/hewitt later on. He was still serving 130 even then.

RagingLamb
09-26-2008, 05:12 AM
sampras was never that much of an ace machine...but he could put away the floaters from guys like goran, rusedski, rafter etc with his volley and from the baseline he was far superior to these players on grass.

sampras was a high risk server esp on seconds just like agassi was a high risk returner.

Pete did double on big pts but it was rare. People just dont remember them. Two matches - safin at montreal, rafter at usopen. i think he dubbed on mps of both matches. pete was just a better all round player than most guys and he didn't need to risk the second serve against players unless they had a respectable ROS like agassi.

Pete had a great serve in his time but even he started to feel the returning was getting better when he played safin/hewitt later on. He was still serving 130 even then.

by the time Pete started playing hewitt and safin he was already a step slower, so he couldn't volley as effectively as he used to, and he was more vulnerable to his opponents' returns.

this is not to say that the returns didn't get better, just that they weren't the only factor when it came to Sampras.

crude oil
09-26-2008, 06:23 AM
by the time Pete started playing hewitt and safin he was already a step slower, so he couldn't volley as effectively as he used to, and he was more vulnerable to his opponents' returns.

this is not to say that the returns didn't get better, just that they weren't the only factor when it came to Sampras.

we will agree to disagree because i think while pete was a good volleyer, i am not sure if the half step would have made a difference. Also i think pete's lateral movement suffered more than his movement to net.

its all about perspective i guess. i see hewitt and safin returning well and getting the ball back just as fast and forcing pete to have to hit volleys where pete is not in his comfort zone. While you see it as pete lost athleticism where the half step would have made a difference.

its all good. either way it doesnt change the fact that pete was a great player.

peterparker
09-26-2008, 05:40 PM
sampras was never that much of an ace machine...but he could put away the floaters from guys like goran, rusedski, rafter etc with his volley and from the baseline he was far superior to these players on grass.

sampras was a high risk server esp on seconds just like agassi was a high risk returner.

Pete did double on big pts but it was rare. People just dont remember them. Two matches - safin at montreal, rafter at usopen. i think he dubbed on mps of both matches. pete was just a better all round player than most guys and he didn't need to risk the second serve against players unless they had a respectable ROS like agassi.

Pete had a great serve in his time but even he started to feel the returning was getting better when he played safin/hewitt later on. He was still serving 130 even then.

What does it mean to be "high risk" when you go on to say that the doubles were rare?

Imo there is nothing all that special about safin/hewitt. Sampras lost to talented players at the open even before these guys showed up on the tour. Bad luck for him that he was also older, slower and less motivated when he ran into those two guys.

Now he did say the competition got better towards the end, which imo is true when you compare hewitt/safin/federer vs. moya/kafelnikov/haas etc. But was it better than courier/chang/stich/becker/edberg/agassi? Hard to say who he was comparing the new group to.

GlennMirnyi
09-26-2008, 06:53 PM
sampras was never that much of an ace machine...but he could put away the floaters from guys like goran, rusedski, rafter etc with his volley and from the baseline he was far superior to these players on grass.

sampras was a high risk server esp on seconds just like agassi was a high risk returner.

Pete did double on big pts but it was rare. People just dont remember them. Two matches - safin at montreal, rafter at usopen. i think he dubbed on mps of both matches. pete was just a better all round player than most guys and he didn't need to risk the second serve against players unless they had a respectable ROS like agassi.

Pete had a great serve in his time but even he started to feel the returning was getting better when he played safin/hewitt later on. He was still serving 130 even then.

Sampras used a racket from 1986 in the 2002. That says a lot about how much more power he could have produced.

crude oil
09-26-2008, 11:43 PM
Sampras used a racket from 1986 in the 2002. That says a lot about how much more power he could have produced.

actually it says a lot more about how stubborn he was.

Sampras sacrificed some extra heat for accuracy by way of his small frame, and high tension.

It was a decision he made. Maybe if he chose a more modern racket frame (wider body + tech) with looser strings, he would had more power and less accuracy. We have no way of saying whether his serve would have been better or not. It is too hypothetical.

crude oil
09-26-2008, 11:49 PM
What does it mean to be "high risk" when you go on to say that the doubles were rare?

Imo there is nothing all that special about safin/hewitt. Sampras lost to talented players at the open even before these guys showed up on the tour. Bad luck for him that he was also older, slower and less motivated when he ran into those two guys.

.

Actually sampras did double a lot compared to federer...see stats from rwn posts on serving statistics from wimbledon. federer serves the same # of aces and much less doubles. That's where high risk imo comes from. Pete was more flashier than federer on his serve because he went for much more...he needed to.

in your opinion safin and hewitt aren't all that great, and that's fine. But i think they are fantastic players who on their day could blitz pete...something the other group of players you cite could never do on any given day...prime or no-prime for pete.

again we will just disagree.:)

JimmyV
09-27-2008, 01:24 AM
If only Sampras released a $20.00 autobiography where he addressed every single one of the topics your endlessly debating.



Oh wait.

RagingLamb
09-27-2008, 01:39 AM
we will agree to disagree because i think while pete was a good volleyer, i am not sure if the half step would have made a difference. Also i think pete's lateral movement suffered more than his movement to net.

its all about perspective i guess. i see hewitt and safin returning well and getting the ball back just as fast and forcing pete to have to hit volleys where pete is not in his comfort zone. While you see it as pete lost athleticism where the half step would have made a difference.

its all good. either way it doesnt change the fact that pete was a great player.


well, to me hitting the volleys from further back and a lower position makes a big difference. but I'm o.k. with agreeing to disagree.

as far as hewitt and safin, i'm not saying that it was merely due to Pete's loss of athleticism either. He did run into those two when they were playing GREAT tennis and Pete was on his way out.

Still, 3-4 and 4-5 aren't horrible records for an old man. people (not saying you) make it sound like Hewitt & Safin came to the tour and just blew Sampras away. I don't think that's entirely accurate.

crude oil
09-27-2008, 06:54 AM
well, to me hitting the volleys from further back and a lower position makes a big difference. but I'm o.k. with agreeing to disagree.
.

i think hewitt and safin could hit meet a fast ball and send it just as fast back...so its not just pete's lost athleticism but i think that safin and hewitt were superior returners who could send the ball back off the return lower and faster than say goran, krajicek, rafter, becker etc.


Still, 3-4 and 4-5 aren't horrible records for an old man. people (not saying you) make it sound like Hewitt & Safin came to the tour and just blew Sampras away. I don't think that's entirely accurate.

sure...i'm merely refuting the notion that safin and hewitt were some sort of mugs who couldn't play with pete on a good day as peter parker was alluding to. everyone knows that pete was a greater player than both safin and hewitt combined.

Federerhingis
09-27-2008, 08:15 PM
sure...i'm merely refuting the notion that safin and hewitt were some sort of mugs who couldn't play with pete on a good day as peter parker was alluding to. everyone knows that pete was a greater player than both safin and hewitt combined.

Yet Safin is every bit as talented as Sampras if not more, he had all the tools, except for the mental fortitude. Of course Sampras is a much better volleyer, but Safin moved and still moves quite impressively for a guy so tall and big. Nonetheless Safin is no chump when he wants or has to volley.