Anyone know the answer to this tennis question? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Anyone know the answer to this tennis question?

GarethHodges
07-04-2004, 03:38 AM
Depending on where you read, John McEnroe has either won 76 or 77 ATP Tour Titles, Stefan Edberg has either won 41 or 42 and Jimmy Connors has either won 105 or 109.

Try typing either "John McEnroe", "76 titles" into a search engine and then try "John McEnroe", "77 titles" for example and you'll find a number of webpages supporting both amounts. The same applies to Connors and Edberg with the above amounts.

I was wondering whether any tennis fans could tell me where the confusion lies - I would imagine that Connors, for example, did win 109 titles but perhaps 4 didn't meet a certain criteria set out and therefore it is officially 105.

Does anybody know the answer?

Ballbuster
07-04-2004, 03:41 AM
Edberg has 42, McEnroe has 76, Connors has 106-1. whoop!!!

go to atptennis.com for reliable tennis information from now on

GarethHodges
07-04-2004, 03:46 AM
Edberg has 42, McEnroe has 76, Connors has 106-1. whoop!!!

go to atptennis.com for reliable tennis information from now on

Hi mate,

That was the first place that I looked - and I am aware of those official statistics.

However, the question was "where does the confusion lie?"

I am interested to know how scores of other well-respected sources suggest that McEnroe has won 77 titles, Edberg 41 and Connors 109.

These sources have included, or failed to include, titles which these players have obviously won when they totted them all up, and I am interested to know why these titles have or haven't been included on the ATP statistics.

Ballbuster
07-04-2004, 03:52 AM
look go with the ATP's info, the other numbers might include exhibition titles that are not ATP events

GarethHodges
07-04-2004, 04:01 AM
look go with the ATP's info, the other numbers might include exhibition titles that are not ATP events

BUT...

I've typed "Stefan Edberg", "41 titles" into a search engine and I have literally found hundreds of webpages supporting the fact that he has won 41 titles. None of the 42 listed on the ATP website are exhibitions so where does the confusion lie in this case?

Ballbuster
07-04-2004, 04:18 AM
wtf, what the hell does it matter, are you trying to put Bud Collins out of business and make a better encyclopedia? the ATP is the official, stick with that

GarethHodges
07-04-2004, 04:30 AM
wtf, what the hell does it matter, are you trying to put Bud Collins out of business and make a better encyclopedia? the ATP is the official, stick with that

Hi again! I'm just trying to find out why so many other sources have the same, contradictive, information on this subject to the ATP website.

On a website I've just found, the "41" titles that Edberg has won are listed but the Olympic Gold Medal he won in 1984 is absent from the list.

However, Andre Agassi has conclusively won 58 titles, which includes a 1996 Olympic Gold Medal. So were Olympic Gold medals only included from 1988 onwards in career titles - as Marc Rosset (1988 Olympic Gold Medalist) conclusively won 15 titles, which includes that Olympic Gold Medal.

Ballbuster
07-04-2004, 04:40 AM
OK, Mr more obsessed than GWH, i just called all three legends and I was right

chris whiteside
07-04-2004, 06:08 AM
Can you not get a list of the "41" titles and the "42" titles and see what one is missing from the lesser list?

GarethHodges
07-04-2004, 12:22 PM
I've just discovered that tennis was only included in the 1984 Olympic Games as a demonstration sport which is why many of the sources which say he only won 41 titles do not include it in their figures.

GarethHodges
07-06-2004, 03:52 PM
By the way, a demonstration sport means that it is still an event which forms part of the Olympics, but there are no gold/silver/bronze medals on offer. It has been a full medal Olympic Games event in 1988, 1992, 1996, 2000 and will be again this summer in Athens.

CarnivalCarnage
07-06-2004, 04:19 PM
wtf, what the hell does it matter, are you trying to put Bud Collins out of business and make a better encyclopedia? the ATP is the official, stick with that

Idiot.

CarnivalCarnage
07-06-2004, 04:21 PM
By the way, a demonstration sport means that it is still an event which forms part of the Olympics, but there are no gold/silver/bronze medals on offer. It has been a full medal Olympic Games event in 1988, 1992, 1996, 2000 and will be again this summer in Athens.

Well that answers Edberg.

As for Connors, given the era in which he played his early and most prolific portion of his career, it doesn't surprise me that there are differing viewpoints on his career titles.

GarethHodges
07-06-2004, 04:27 PM
Well that answers Edberg.

As for Connors, given the era in which he played his early and most prolific portion of his career, it doesn't surprise me that there are differing viewpoints on his career titles.

Hi mate. The McEnroe one is strange too because it is a widely regarded fact that John McEnroe won 77 singles titles and 77 doubles titles, yet the ATP site states that he won 76 singles titles.

CarnivalCarnage
07-06-2004, 04:28 PM
Hi mate. The McEnroe one is strange too because it is a widely regarded fact that John McEnroe won 77 singles titles and 77 doubles titles, yet the ATP site states that he won 76 singles titles.

You're quite right. Have you checked ITF yet?

GarethHodges
07-06-2004, 04:33 PM
I've looked at his biography on the ITF site but it doesn't say how many singles titles that he has won.

CarnivalCarnage
07-06-2004, 04:38 PM
You could count, though.

GarethHodges
07-06-2004, 04:45 PM
You could count, though.

I'll do that...good idea. But first, listen to this. The ATP gives his singles career record as 867-192 whereas the ITF give it as 881-198. This means that he is 14-6 for tournaments which the ITF includes but not the ATP.

GarethHodges
07-06-2004, 04:51 PM
I wonder how many singles titles John McEnroe did actually win.

CarnivalCarnage
07-06-2004, 05:13 PM
I'll do that...good idea. But first, listen to this. The ATP gives his singles career record as 867-192 whereas the ITF give it as 881-198. This means that he is 14-6 for tournaments which the ITF includes but not the ATP.

The ITF counts some events it shouldn't and that the ATP doesn't. Hopman Cup for example. Though I don't know whether John ever played there.

But those additional matches could be Hopman, Grand Slam Cup, the exhibition before the French (actually, I know that is one thing he did in 1984 that the ATP would not and should not count), and possibly Davis Cup, though I'd like to think the ATP lists that.

Chloe le Bopper
07-06-2004, 05:48 PM
Edberg has 42, McEnroe has 76, Connors has 106-1. whoop!!!

go to atptennis.com for reliable tennis information from now on
If you think that the ATP site is *always* the most reliable site... then you haven't been stat hunting for very long, because it's not. They make mistakes like everybody else. Mind you, that has nothing to do with the what the thread started asked. You seem to ahve totally missed the point, and attempted to belittle him in the process. How petty.

Anyways, I'm no help, but it's an interesting topic :)

GarethHodges
07-07-2004, 04:34 AM
Hi!

Earlier, I said: "The ATP gives his singles career record as 867-192 whereas the ITF give it as 881-198. This means that he is 14-6 for tournaments which the ITF includes but not the ATP."

These tournaments 'probably' fit this descriptions as none of the winners in brackets have the tournaments included on their Career Titles/Finals page at atptennis.com:

Source: ITF website:

1978 WCT Invitational, Forest Hills, New York (3-1) (Vitas Gerulaitis)
1978 WCT Challenge Cup, Montego Bay, Jamaica (1-2) (Ilie Nastase)
1979 Pepsi Grand Slam, Boca Raton, Florida (0-1) (Bjorn Borg)
1979 WCT Invitational, Forest Hills, New York (2-1) (Eddie Dibbs)
1980 Pepsi Grand Slam, Boca Raton, Florida (0-1) (Bjorn Borg)
1980 WCT Challenge Cup, Montreal, Canada (5-0) (John McEnroe)
1981 Pepsi Grand Slam, Boca Raton, Florida (2-0) (John McEnroe)
1990 Hopman Cup (2-1)

Total 15 wins 7 losses (NOT 14-6)

Also, according to the John McEnroe Career Titles/Finals page at atptennis.com, he won a London tournament in 1978. The ITF site has no record of this on the John McEnroe 'activity' page.

CmonAussie
07-07-2004, 06:35 AM
BTW~ Yeah ATP is not so reliable; many of the Challenger Level Events would have counted on the ATP Titles list up to 1990 even. There's a lot of confusion about certain events status up until 1990; so players who won titles 70's,80's etc. may have certain Titles counted that would no longer count. For instance Jimmy Connors apparently won the Tel Aviv event a few times in the 1980's but since the 1990's it was considered only as a Challenger!

Another thing which is peculiar is how the ATP counts Men's Doubles Titles but doesn't count Mixed Doubles; yet the ITF does count the Mixed Slam wins!!

PS~ The easy way around this problem is just to win lots of Grand Slams--->> so that way people will only talk about how many Slams you talked about; many people don't know that Sampras won 64-titles but everyone knows he's got 14-Slams. Likewise with Agassi; most people have no idea about his 58-titles~ better to focus on his 8-Slams. **Only a few lucky uber talented players have this luxury; looks like the focus on Federer will be his Slam tally; not the TMS or IS Title accumulation!!

CarnivalCarnage
07-07-2004, 11:34 AM
Interesting.

I wonder which number Johnny Mac will say. ;)

GarethHodges
07-07-2004, 12:42 PM
On the atptennis.com website, each players 'activity' only dates as far back as 1984. Therefore, between 1977 and 1983, it is difficult to see whether any tournaments are NOT included on the ATP website but are included on the ITF website.

Also, as the ATP website has credited him with winning a 1978 title in London, you would at least think the ITF website (which recognises more results than the ATP website) would include it on his 1978 'activity'.

GarethHodges
07-07-2004, 12:57 PM
If anybody could find out any information about a tournament held in London - and won by John McEnroe (not to be confused with Queen's or Wembley) in 1978, that would be a big help.

1977, Eddie Dibbs won an event known as WCT London, but the event that John McEnroe won in 1978 did not have WCT in its title.

CarnivalCarnage
07-07-2004, 01:32 PM
Hey man, what is it that you plan on doing with this information? And have you tried emailing the ATP or the ITF? Maybe going to directly to the horses' mouth wouldn't be a bad idea.

jtipson
07-07-2004, 01:36 PM
Bit confused here too, the ATP lists Wembley and London as events in the third week of November 1978, and the draw is the same. So I think it's the same tournament.

Have you asked on rec.sport.tennis about the number of titles etc? There are quite a few stats people there who might know the answers.

GarethHodges
07-07-2004, 02:43 PM
jtipson.

http://www.atptennis.com/en/tournaments/eventhistory/archive.asp?year=1978&caltype=full

Have you seen the weird dates that have been given for these tournaments. Gstaad started on 10th July '78 and ended on 16th January '78. I don't even think Einstein could define that law of physics.

14th November 1978 (Wembley start date) was a Tuesday
19th November 1978 (London start date) was a Sunday

These two tournaments must have been played at the same time and yes...why are the draws identical?

jtipson
07-07-2004, 03:18 PM
The Gstaad finish date was probably a typo - someone put "1" rather than "7" for the month. With regard to the Wembley tournament, the Tuesday start is most likely correct, I would think (although they both end on 31st Dec, probably a default date if it is blank or something). It's certainly the same tournament.

GarethHodges
07-07-2004, 03:24 PM
Hey man, what is it that you plan on doing with this information? And have you tried emailing the ATP or the ITF? Maybe going to directly to the horses' mouth wouldn't be a bad idea.

I'm trying to find this information so I am aware of all the tournaments which the ATP do not recognise - not for any other particular reason, it's just quite interesting.

GarethHodges
07-07-2004, 03:26 PM
The Gstaad finish date was probably a typo - someone put "1" rather than "7" for the month. With regard to the Wembley tournament, the Tuesday start is most likely correct, I would think (although they both end on 31st Dec, probably a default date if it is blank or something). It's certainly the same tournament.

That's what I first thought but then I looked through all the other 1978 tournament dates and hardly any of them make any sense.

A few more examples from atptennis.com

Baltimore 22nd January - 12th July
Philadelphia 23rd January -16th January
Sarasota 29th January - 12th July

CarnivalCarnage
07-07-2004, 03:30 PM
I'm trying to find this information so I am aware of all the tournaments which the ATP do not recognise - not for any other particular reason, it's just quite interesting.

Mail 'em.

jtipson
07-07-2004, 03:32 PM
That's what I first thought but then I looked through all the other 1978 tournament dates and hardly any of them make any sense.

A few more examples from atptennis.com

Baltimore 22nd January - 12th July
Philadelphia 23rd January -16th January
Sarasota 29th January - 12th July

Yes, rather strange indeed. They obviously need a Data Administrator. I'd be happy to volunteer ;)

GarethHodges
07-07-2004, 03:36 PM
All tournaments either end on 16th January, 12th July or 31st December.

GarethHodges
07-07-2004, 03:38 PM
Mail 'em.

Yes mate, I have done.

Beer Monster
07-08-2004, 11:13 PM
The ATP website also says that John McEnroe won 69 doubles titles but I can tell you right now he won 77 because I met the bloke.

GarethHodges
07-14-2004, 09:37 PM
I have written to the ATP website (about a week ago) but they haven't replied. Any ideas?