Why can't American players play well in the French Open? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Why can't American players play well in the French Open?

groundstroke
04-18-2008, 02:03 AM
James Blake's best FO record: 3rd round, 2006.
Andy Roddick's best FO record:3rd round, 2001. (lol)
I think it's because the majority of American players are baseliners who like to dominate strokes, and on clay the ball bounces a lot slower, therefore they cannot hit as much winners, that must surely be the reason?

Clay Death
04-18-2008, 02:08 AM
James Blake's best FO record: 3rd round, 2006.
Andy Roddick's best FO record:3rd round, 2001. (lol)
I think it's because the majority of American players are baseliners who like to dominate strokes, and on clay the ball bounces a lot slower, therefore they cannot hit as much winners, that must surely be the reason?


we will help you out with this. stay tuned.

Timbo
04-18-2008, 02:13 AM
They don't know how to slide into a shot. People forget that movement on a clay court is arguably the most important factor. If you play on primarily hardcourts you're used to having stable footing and you can more or less plant your feet to launch into a shot...try doing that on clay and you'll end up on your arse.

groundstroke
04-18-2008, 02:14 AM
I'm just annoyed at how Roddick can win the USO, reach Wimbledon final twice and do well on hard courts yet when French arrives it's hell for him, same with Blake.

Fee
04-18-2008, 02:15 AM
Long standing agreement with the French government, we send our male players over there to make them look good, make the US look humble instead of that whole 'we saved your sorry asses in WW2' crap that was going on for so long. Courier and Chang tried to go outside the agreement, and you saw what happened to them. Agassi was allowed to win it once, because Chirac liked him. They left doubles out of the agreement, which explains the whole Jensen Brothers debacle.

smitty8
04-18-2008, 02:34 AM
Fee, you got the avatar! Looks good!
I'm thinking Roddick can't do well on clay because he wears Crocs. He keeps getting clay in the holes when he slides, it's just uncomfortable. Just my opinion, of course. :p

Fee
04-18-2008, 02:35 AM
Yeah, J'torian fixed it up for me (I needed help). Oh, I need to fix my sig and give you photo credit. Thanks again! :)

~*BGT*~
04-18-2008, 02:36 AM
Andy fulfills his contractual obligations to Lacoste and then leaves. Duh! :p

leng jai
04-18-2008, 02:40 AM
Because they have had monumental bad luck in every RG match they're played.

Alonsofz
04-18-2008, 02:41 AM
Who won RG '99?

Deboogle!.
04-18-2008, 02:48 AM
smitty :haha: :rolls: :haha:I'm just annoyed at how Roddick can win the USO, reach Wimbledon final twice and do well on hard courts yet when French arrives it's hell for him, same with Blake.I was gonna make a snarky post to this thread, but maybe you are being serious, so I will give you a serious answer at least where Roddick is concerned. Well first, for all of them, part of the problem is the practice and dedication. In the US in general today, there are not enough clay courts, these guys are not learning to move on it from a young age, and that is huge. The second aspect is mental. They are almost conditioned to not do well on it. Thirdly, they have Wimbledon coming up immediately after, and then because they play such full summer hardcourt seasons, they get a feeling of "wait, should I really exert myself that hard to do well on a surface where I might get exhausted and threaten my chances to do well on the surfaces I'm really good on?" Maybe it's poor and flawed logic, but I believe it's true (and Roddick said as much in a press conference at Indian Wells last month).

So anyway here is my opinion about Roddick. OK, he will never do great at the French because of his game - this is plainly obvious. But for me, with him it is more an issue that he doesn't care as much; it's all in his head. If you have seen him play any of the numerous Davis Cup matches he's played on clay over the past few years, he fights like hell. Granted, except for Rafa and Moya in 2004, he hasn't played really good claycourters, but the point is that he's shown that he's capable of playing good matches on the surface - even against Rafa and Moya, he played several tight sets and was at least able to hold his own for a while, and for me this is because he cares so much about DC, he's willing to leave it all out there and do everything he can. For me, if he played RG with the same amount of passion and focus and overall "pumped-up-ness" he would do better there and maybe he would've won some of the close ones he's lost over the years. It's not to say he doesn't care at all (this is the guy who was crying when he had to retire a couple years ago after trying to play on a pretty serious ankle sprain, and he's said more than once that he really wants to make the 2nd week before his career is over), but it's just not the same. You can see it in things like his energy level and all around demeanor that are different at the 3 other slams and DC.

Of course the more important question is why, and unfortunately he's the only one who can answer that. Maybe it's a subconscious feeling of having one eye on Wimbledon and the knowledge that it's a tournament he really knows he cannot win and so he finds it hard to really pump himself up mentally for. Maybe he's just the cowardly lazy schmuck people on here think he is and he just doesn't give a shit. Maybe he's lacking the confidence because he hasn't dedicated himself enough to improving on it so in the tight moments he can't close the deal. And the possibilities go on and on and on and regardless of the reason, it doesn't affect how unfortunate it is. Because I think even most of the people who believe he's a no-talent serving machine think he should be able to win a few matches there at least a couple times in his career (depending on his draw).

I don't think all this stuff is applicable to just him, but I only say it in reference to him because I follow him the most.

jcempire
04-18-2008, 03:03 AM
James Blake's best FO record: 3rd round, 2006.
Andy Roddick's best FO record:3rd round, 2001. (lol)
I think it's because the majority of American players are baseliners who like to dominate strokes, and on clay the ball bounces a lot slower, therefore they cannot hit as much winners, that must surely be the reason?

Blake's Aggressive offensive style is not fix on Clay

Just not go to work, He need be much more patience on clay. In other words, He need change his offensive style a little bit

Andy Roddick is not a baseliner, He got a big serve which usually not work on clay. I just don't want to see him come to Net too many times

jcempire
04-18-2008, 03:07 AM
smitty :haha: :rolls: :haha:I was gonna make a snarky post to this thread, but maybe you are being serious, so I will give you a serious answer at least where Roddick is concerned. Well first, for all of them, part of the problem is the practice and dedication. In the US in general today, there are not enough clay courts, these guys are not learning to move on it from a young age, and that is huge. The second aspect is mental. They are almost conditioned to not do well on it. Thirdly, they have Wimbledon coming up immediately after, and then because they play such full summer hardcourt seasons, they get a feeling of "wait, should I really exert myself that hard to do well on a surface where I might get exhausted and threaten my chances to do well on the surfaces I'm really good on?" Maybe it's poor and flawed logic, but I believe it's true (and Roddick said as much in a press conference at Indian Wells last month).

So anyway here is my opinion about Roddick. OK, he will never do great at the French because of his game - this is plainly obvious. But for me, with him it is more an issue that he doesn't care as much; it's all in his head. If you have seen him play any of the numerous Davis Cup matches he's played on clay over the past few years, he fights like hell. Granted, except for Rafa and Moya in 2004, he hasn't played really good claycourters, but the point is that he's shown that he's capable of playing good matches on the surface - even against Rafa and Moya, he played several tight sets and was at least able to hold his own for a while, and for me this is because he cares so much about DC, he's willing to leave it all out there and do everything he can. For me, if he played RG with the same amount of passion and focus and overall "pumped-up-ness" he would do better there and maybe he would've won some of the close ones he's lost over the years. It's not to say he doesn't care at all (this is the guy who was crying when he had to retire a couple years ago after trying to play on a pretty serious ankle sprain, and he's said more than once that he really wants to make the 2nd week before his career is over), but it's just not the same. You can see it in things like his energy level and all around demeanor that are different at the 3 other slams and DC.

Of course the more important question is why, and unfortunately he's the only one who can answer that. Maybe it's a subconscious feeling of having one eye on Wimbledon and the knowledge that it's a tournament he really knows he cannot win and so he finds it hard to really pump himself up mentally for. Maybe he's just the cowardly lazy schmuck people on here think he is and he just doesn't give a shit. Maybe he's lacking the confidence because he hasn't dedicated himself enough to improving on it so in the tight moments he can't close the deal. And the possibilities go on and on and on and regardless of the reason, it doesn't affect how unfortunate it is. Because I think even most of the people who believe he's a no-talent serving machine think he should be able to win a few matches there at least a couple times in his career (depending on his draw).

I don't think all this stuff is applicable to just him, but I only say it in reference to him because I follow him the most.



Absolute Agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:wavey:

Great point, Andy didn't care the result of Clay, If he does care, We would see a different Andy Roddick on clay

Clay Death
04-18-2008, 03:46 AM
James Blake's best FO record: 3rd round, 2006.
Andy Roddick's best FO record:3rd round, 2001. (lol)
I think it's because the majority of American players are baseliners who like to dominate strokes, and on clay the ball bounces a lot slower, therefore they cannot hit as much winners, that must surely be the reason?


ok groundstroke one simple explanation is that we grow up on hard courts and develop games that are ideally suited for hard courts. this game just doesnt translate well on clay:

1. your best weapons--like andy`s serve or blake's overpowering but inconsistent drives--are quickly negated by dirt. so their best weapons lose some of their luster as soon as they walk out on that surface.

2. Americans also find moving on clay to be bit problematic. Roddick doesnt move well at all on clay. he finds the surface uncomfortable and too unstable for his taste.

3. Amercians like the idea of high risk, quick/first strike advantage which works well on hard courts. on clay, people can run down some of these shots with ease. so the high risk game does not translate well on clay.

4. Amercians also are impatient. you need to able to construct points and play it like a chess match on clay.

5. finally, fitness is critical. American are just not willing to grind away for 4+ hours on dirt so they never train for the fitness needed for dirt.

all 9 American players lost in the very 1st round at the last French Open. they have to make some changes. its just that simple.

Kitty de Sade
04-18-2008, 03:57 AM
I just thank god for Spadea. He's made it to the 3rd round on three separate occassions. :inlove:

Clay Death
04-18-2008, 04:01 AM
I just thank god for Spadea. He's made it to the 3rd round on three separate occassions. :inlove:


you can fast forget about him now. given his advanced age, he will be lucky to make it out of his bed 3 days in a row.

~*BGT*~
04-18-2008, 04:08 AM
I also think Americans lack ability on clay because they don't grow up on it, unlike Europeans. I, for one, have never seen a clay court in person. :shrug:

Clay Death
04-18-2008, 04:26 AM
I also think Americans lack ability on clay because they don't grow up on it, unlike Europeans. I, for one, have never seen a clay court in person. :shrug:


thats right bgt. we are neighbors so i know what you are saying. in new orleans, we used to have a couple of clay court clubs. i was a member of both. the one in new orleans east (Lake Forest Racquet Club) is converted to some sort of facilities for the elderly.

brent-o
04-18-2008, 04:43 AM
thats right bgt. we are neighbors so i know what you are saying. in new orleans, we used to have a couple of clay court clubs. i was a member of both. the one in new orleans east (Lake Forest Racquet Club) is converted to some sort of facilities for the elderly.

You're from New Orleans, ClayDeath? Me too! I live on the Westbank so there's obviously no chance we'd have a clay court here.

Clay Death
04-18-2008, 04:59 AM
You're from New Orleans, ClayDeath? Me too! I live on the Westbank so there's obviously no chance we'd have a clay court here.


i am living in Diamondhead now. you are right. there are no more clay court clubs in new orleans. there used to be a club at the lakefront as well as one in new orleans east.

i used to hit quite a bit at the Hilton on the river. have you ever played there? those are some really fast indoor courts.


i do have some clay courts in Diamondhead.

so you are from the west bank. i was there not long ago. looks like its a small world sometimes.

kobulingam
04-18-2008, 05:23 AM
They don't have great movement on clay.

E.g. Often Blake will run to a wide ball really fast (quick feet) reach the ball, hit it back, and then try to stop... but he will end up sliding after he hit the ball.

Note "AFTER"

brent-o
04-18-2008, 05:41 AM
i am living in Diamondhead now. you are right. there are no more clay court clubs in new orleans. there used to be a club at the lakefront as well as one in new orleans east.

i used to hit quite a bit at the Hilton on the river. have you ever played there? those are some really fast indoor courts.


i do have some clay courts in Diamondhead.

so you are from the west bank. i was there not long ago. looks like its a small world sometimes.

No I haven't hit at the Hilton, I've actually never played on an indoor court. I'll have to try that sometime.

I actually have relatives in Kiln, Mississippi (home of Brett Favre whoop whoop), near Diamondhead. Where are the clay courts in Diamondhead?

Clay Death
04-18-2008, 06:06 AM
No I haven't hit at the Hilton, I've actually never played on an indoor court. I'll have to try that sometime.

I actually have relatives in Kiln, Mississippi (home of Brett Favre whoop whoop), near Diamondhead. Where are the clay courts in Diamondhead?


clay courts are on the west side of Diamondhead.

Brett Farve`s parents home is not far from here.

his brother, Scott Farve, sells real estate here in Diamondhead. i know him and Brett. i graduated from USM. i was not there at the same time as Brett.

Action Jackson
04-18-2008, 08:23 AM
Mike Russell was the last American male to make the 4th round at RG.

Stephan
04-18-2008, 09:34 AM
1989 Michael Chang (USA) def. Stefan Edberg, 6-1, 3-6, 4-6, 6-4, 6-2
1990 Andrés Gómez def. Andre Agassi (USA), 6-3, 2-6, 6-4, 6-0
1991 Jim Courier (USA) def. Andre Agassi (USA), 3-6, 6-4, 2-6, 6-1, 6-4
1992 Jim Courier (USA) def. Petr Korda, 7-5, 6-2, 6-1
1993 Sergi Bruguera (ESP) def. Jim Courier (USA), 6-4, 2-6, 6-2, 3-6, 6-3
1994 Sergi Bruguera (ESP) def. Alberto Berasategui (ESP), 6-3, 7-5, 2-6, 6-1
1995 Thomas Muster (AUT) def. Michael Chang (USA), 7-5, 6-2, 6-4
1996 Yevgeny Kafelnikov 1 (RUS) def. Michael Stich (GER), 7-6(4), 7-5, 7-6
1997 Gustavo Kuerten 1 (BRA) def. Sergi Bruguera (ESP), 6-3, 6-4, 6-2
1998 Carlos Moyá (ESP) def. Alex Corretja (ESP), 6-3, 7-5, 6-3
1999 Andre Agassi 1 (USA) def. Andrei Medvedev (UKR) 1-6, 2-6, 6-4, 6-3, 6-4
2000 Gustavo Kuerten (BRA) def. Magnus Norman (SWE), 6-2, 6-3, 2-6, 7-6(6)
2001 Gustavo Kuerten (BRA) def. Alex Corretja (ESP), 6-7 (1), 7-5, 6-2, 6-0
2002 Albert Costa (ESP) def. Juan Carlos Ferrero (ESP), 6-1, 6-0, 4-6, 6-3
2003 Juan Carlos Ferrero (ESP) def. Martin Verkerk (NED), 6-1, 6-3, 6-2
2005 Gastón Gaudio def. Guillermo Coria, 0-6, 3-6, 6-4, 6-1, 8-6


Look on some statistic of FO Finals from 1989 to "Rafa's Era":

eight players in those Finals are from USA!
Statistics says that result of american players is "not so bad" :)

I find that quality level of current us players is just too low,
tennis in usa is not popular anymore?

Action Jackson
04-18-2008, 10:06 AM
Mike Russell was the last American male to make the 4th round at RG.

Correction it should be Agassi that was the last American player make the second week of RG.

They haven't always been useless on clay, just this current generation.

Burrow
04-18-2008, 10:53 AM
Maybe it is to do with the fact that in America, growing up, you play more or less on hardcourt all the time. Clay is pretty rare to be found in America.

Adler
04-18-2008, 10:56 AM
Maybe it is to do with the fact that in America, growing up, you play more or less on hardcourt all the time. Clay is pretty rare to be found in America.
I heard they started to build some kind of red clay complex in Florida or something

Action Jackson
04-18-2008, 11:01 AM
Courier, Chang, Todd Martin, Krickstein, Arias, Agassi all managed to do well on clay. They wanted to improve and they did on clay, this current lot apart from Querrey don't want to.

rocketassist
04-18-2008, 11:04 AM
Don Young has an un-typical america game style and he may do better on clay than the current crop.

Winston's Human
04-18-2008, 11:30 AM
Let us not forget that, prior to Chang's victory in 1989, the USA went thirty-five years without producing a French Open champion. This lack of success is nothing new.

Mateya
04-18-2008, 12:13 PM
Answer is simple:
Because clay does not support brainless ballbashing and requires some consistency.

:o

smitty8
04-18-2008, 01:14 PM
Now I'll get serious. It's because there aren't many places for Americans to play on clay in the US. I've personally been to 2 places that had green clay and that's it. I got to see it, not play on it. We only had hard courts where I grew up. There are only hard courts where I live now. I have to drive 2 hours to get to one of those green clay courts (and I was quite surprised they had them, to be honest).

chris.chan92
04-18-2008, 01:17 PM
I reckon Andy Roddick or James Blake will do one better than their career best and reach the round of 16 at FO

groundstroke
04-18-2008, 01:49 PM
Thanks for the replies guys, the reason I made this thread is that I have a game that is suited to hard court, that's basically the game everyone has these days but recently I played on a clay court with a friend and I lost, I'll take the advice on.

Bibberz
04-18-2008, 02:19 PM
Let us not forget that, prior to Chang's victory in 1989, the USA went thirty-five years without producing a French Open champion. This lack of success is nothing new.

Yup. No mystery. It cuts both ways, though. When was the last time a Spaniard or South American won the U.S. Open? Vilas? That was like thirty years ago.

Deboogle!.
04-18-2008, 03:36 PM
Courier, Chang, Todd Martin, Krickstein, Arias, Agassi all managed to do well on clay. They wanted to improve and they did on clay, this current lot apart from Querrey don't want to.You're missing something here. Querrey is much younger. When Roddick was his age, he played Monte Carlo every year. He had his best results on clay his first full year on the circuit. I think it's because there were no expectations on him then. It's not like his game has gotten worse since 2001 - things needed for success on clay including patience and fitness have only improved since then. So again it's all in the head. But to suggest they didn't try early in their careers is plain rubbish. Whether Sam will keep up the dedication in the next few years we will see, but you can't compare a guy just a couple years into his career with guys well into their careers - they have had time to reflect fine tune their schedules and figure out what works for them, and they are expected to make deep runs into Wimby and have good summers, whereas Querrey is not at that expectation level yet. You simply just can't compare.

Yup. No mystery. It cuts both ways, though. When was the last time a Spaniard or South American won the U.S. Open? Vilas? That was like thirty years ago.But don't you know, only the Americans do anything wrong at MTF :)Now I'll get serious. It's because there aren't many places for Americans to play on clay in the US. I've personally been to 2 places that had green clay and that's it. I got to see it, not play on it. We only had hard courts where I grew up. There are only hard courts where I live now. I have to drive 2 hours to get to one of those green clay courts (and I was quite surprised they had them, to be honest).There are lots of green - and even some red - clay courts in Florida (where most of the current crop grew up). In that sense, Querrey is at an even bigger disadvantage for 2 reasons - he grew up in California (where there really are no clay courts) and he didn't really rise up through the ITF junior circuit and have the opportunity to play a lot of junior clay tourneys. But a guy like Roddick grew up playing a lot on green clay, he's said so himself.

Also it's funny because I remember as a kid maybe 8-10 years old being in VERMONT of all places in the summer at a ski resort and that's when I played a little tennis with my dad and we brought our racquets and we couldn't play at the hotel because we didn't have the right kind of shoes because the courts were CLAY. In Vermont, who knew! :lol: So the courts are out there here and there, but your point is a good one, there is not enough clay and kids are not taught to play on it from a young age.

Action Jackson
04-18-2008, 03:43 PM
You're missing something here. Querrey is much younger. When Roddick was his age, he played Monte Carlo every year. He had his best results on clay his first full year on the circuit. I think it's because there were no expectations on him then. It's not like his game has gotten worse since 2001 - things needed for success on clay including patience and fitness have only improved since then. So again it's all in the head. But to suggest they didn't try early in their careers is plain rubbish. Whether Sam will keep up the dedication in the next few years we will see, but you can't compare a guy just a couple years into his career with guys well into their careers - they have had time to reflect fine tune their schedules and figure out what works for them, and they are expected to make deep runs into Wimby and have good summers, whereas Querrey is not at that expectation level yet. You simply just can't compare.

You only highlight Roddick, but there have been many other Americans like the ones I mentioned in the previous generations. They went over to Europe, played the big boys on their surface and improved their games for the faster surfaces.

Spadea did it when he has been ranked well enough, Russell did it. Courier, Todd Martin, Krickstein, Arias, Chang, Agassi and Sampras while their participation decreased over the latter years which is understandable for the last 2, they went over and won titles on the red stuff or at worst made big clay finals apart from Vince and Mike.

Roddick's results have got worse on clay since 2002, that is clear enough.

Clay Death
04-18-2008, 03:49 PM
Answer is simple:
Because clay does not support brainless ballbashing and requires some consistency.

:o


that about sums it up. just patience, stamina, strength, and the ability to think and construct points.

i would also say that the movement is unique on clay and not everybody masters it. most some simply dont have the movement of the top guns anyway.

Castafiore
04-18-2008, 03:49 PM
But don't you know, only the Americans do anything wrong at MTF :)
I assume that you're kidding.

Deboogle!.
04-18-2008, 03:50 PM
You only highlight Roddick, but there have been many other Americans like the ones I mentioned in the previous generations. They went over to Europe, played the big boys on their surface and improved their games for the faster surfaces.

Spadea did it when he has been ranked well enough, Russell did it. Courier, Todd Martin, Krickstein, Arias, Chang, Agassi and Sampras while their participation decreased over the latter years which is understandable for the last 2, they went over and won titles on the red stuff or at worst made big clay finals apart from Vince and Mike.

Roddick's results have got worse on clay since 200, that is clear enough.That wasn't my point. You said "the current crop apart from Querrey don't want to." and i'm saying you cannot compare Querrey to guys further into their careers. I know I am only talking about Roddick - because he's the one I know the best and unlike other people at MTF I try not to talk about stuff I'm not very familiar with. Roddick played all the tourneys up through 2003. He went over and tried. After 2003, he obviously decided to change his schedule and those are the decisions he's made; he will have to live with those. All I'm saying is that you're giving Querrey credit when he may very well do the same thing in a couple years and cut back once he, too, starts having more success in events both before and after the clay season. It's a whole lot easier to load up on tournaments when you're not going deep into each one. Querrey starts going deep in IW, Miami, and Wimbledon and I'd be shocked absolutely gobsmacked if he played the same number of clay events as he has this year and last.I assume that you're kidding.Excellent assumption :)

Action Jackson
04-18-2008, 03:59 PM
That wasn't my point. You said "the current crop apart from Querrey don't want to." and i'm saying you cannot compare Querrey to guys further into their careers. I know I am only talking about Roddick - because he's the one I know the best and unlike other people at MTF I try not to talk about stuff I'm not very familiar with. Roddick played all the tourneys up through 2003. He went over and tried. After 2003, he obviously decided to change his schedule and those are the decisions he's made; he will have to live with those. All I'm saying is that you're giving Querrey credit when he may very well do the same thing in a couple years and cut back once he, too, starts having more success in events both before and after the clay season.

Querrey did this last season and took the losses, he knows in the long run it will be good for his overall game. He pretty much has the same schedule this year as well.

Other generations went out and there had a go. Querrey is doing the same unlike the other current lot and good for him. He is playing a mix of larger and smaller events. As for whether his schedule changes, we'll see, probably play the major clay events. One it's good fitness and he doesn't seem the type to duck a tournament because he doesn't like the surface.

Besides Portschach/St Poelten what smaller clay events did Roddick play in Europe? He has never played Barcelona, in fact when he stopped working with Benhabiles, then his clay form regressed. It's his choice to play what events he wants to, but the reality is that he knows he really doesn't need to do that well on the clay, when he has more than enough major events on surfaces he likes, that he can do well in.

Deboogle!.
04-18-2008, 04:07 PM
I think it's too much to expect them to go over, play 3 Masters events AND optionals AND RG right before their money time of the year and right after a season where they've played a lot. There's wishful thinking and there's just plain lack of logic. Come on man. I know you're a clay fan but at some point you have to realize the reality of the situation. When's the last time the clay players came over and played LA or Indianapolis or Washington DC? They don't, and they're not even in the same situation with having the grass season immediately, then only 1-2 weeks off before their HC season starts, so it's even worse for the Americans b/c if they exhaust themselves playing 5 weeks on clay, they're really setting themselves up to take a huge hit during the time of year when they can seriously do some damage - that's just unreasonable to ask them to do it and I know you're intelligent enough to realize that. Bag on these guys for skipping Monte Carlos b/c it's a masters event but to suggest that they should play more than that is absurd. If they wanted to improve on clay, I don't think just playing Barcelona would help. Really, do you think if Roddick had played Barcelona, he would've suddenly made the Quarters at RG? No, don't be silly. If they wanted to do well on clay, playing 2-3 Masters plus Dusseldorf plus 2 weeks of solid practice would be enough, just like playing Canada and Cincy should be enough for Rafa to do well at the USO.

Again, once Querrey starts going deep on hardcourt and grass events that surround the clay season, which he has not yet even come close to doing, I am really confident that he will drop these events.

Action Jackson
04-18-2008, 04:19 PM
You have missed my point totally. This lot don't play the 3 clay TMS events and haven't for a while. Considering it's more difficult on average to go from hardcourt to clay success, than the other way around. This has been clearly shown over the years to be the case. They don't really need or want to improve their clay results or have to do so to maintain their ranking positions for reasons stated earlier.

101, playing consistently against better players on a surface that isn't your strength, well as long as the player has the aptitude and the will to improve then they will be able to do so.

Clay Death
04-18-2008, 04:24 PM
You're missing something here. Querrey is much younger. When Roddick was his age, he played Monte Carlo every year. He had his best results on clay his first full year on the circuit. I think it's because there were no expectations on him then. It's not like his game has gotten worse since 2001 - things needed for success on clay including patience and fitness have only improved since then. So again it's all in the head. But to suggest they didn't try early in their careers is plain rubbish. Whether Sam will keep up the dedication in the next few years we will see, but you can't compare a guy just a couple years into his career with guys well into their careers - they have had time to reflect fine tune their schedules and figure out what works for them, and they are expected to make deep runs into Wimby and have good summers, whereas Querrey is not at that expectation level yet. You simply just can't compare.

But don't you know, only the Americans do anything wrong at MTF :)There are lots of green - and even some red - clay courts in Florida (where most of the current crop grew up). In that sense, Querrey is at an even bigger disadvantage for 2 reasons - he grew up in California (where there really are no clay courts) and he didn't really rise up through the ITF junior circuit and have the opportunity to play a lot of junior clay tourneys. But a guy like Roddick grew up playing a lot on green clay, he's said so himself.

Also it's funny because I remember as a kid maybe 8-10 years old being in VERMONT of all places in the summer at a ski resort and that's when I played a little tennis with my dad and we brought our racquets and we couldn't play at the hotel because we didn't have the right kind of shoes because the courts were CLAY. In Vermont, who knew! :lol: So the courts are out there here and there, but your point is a good one, there is not enough clay and kids are not taught to play on it from a young age.

querrey can practice and play on clay until cows come home. he will always be just average if not little worse. he is simply too tall. at best he can get a win or 2 at these masters clay events or the French Open. he just does not have the movement needed for clay. his center of gravity is too high.

last big guy to win the French Open was Gomez but he was not nearly 6 foot 7 like Querrey. and Gomez had a more versatile game than Querrey. Sam can never get that far no matter what he does or even if he was raised on clay.

Noah at nearly 6 foot 4 was an exception as well. the game was slower back then and he played a different but more of an attacking style. he could slice well and he was quite competent at the net. Querrey is just not that good.

Deboogle!.
04-18-2008, 04:37 PM
You have missed my point totally. This lot don't play the 3 clay TMS events and haven't for a while. Considering it's more difficult on average to go from hardcourt to clay success, than the other way around. This has been clearly shown over the years to be the case. They don't really need or want to improve their clay results or have to do so to maintain their ranking positions for reasons stated earlier.

101, playing consistently against better players on a surface that isn't your strength, well as long as the player has the aptitude and the will to improve then they will be able to do so.No, I haven't missed the point. I haven't said anything that contradicts with what you're saying, I'm merely able to recognize the fact that it is unreasonable to expect these guys to play that much on clay. Whether it would be good for them is not the point. the point is that they are not going to do it and there are really excellent reasons for them not doing it, which you are either incapable of or unwilling to realize and/or admit, but that's no surprise. Roddick will be playing 3 consecutive weeks before RG. If he can't find his form on clay by then, playing an extra week or two is not going to help him find it.

And that is the point. But at least he gets to take a couple weeks off to get on the clay at home and at least practice on it for a while to try to get his bearings while at the same time recharging for what is a PACKED few months for him - and the same goes for Blake and Fish and whoever else depends on grass and summer HC for their rankings; those guys are playing Houston, getting their feet wet, then taking a couple weeks off after a busy spring to recharge. Look at how many weeks in a row Blake has played and tell me you seriously think it'd be smart for him to go play Monte Carlo and Barcelona and Rome and Hamburg before RG. Yeah, that'd be smart. That'd mean between IW and RG he'd be playing every single week. Surely you are not seriously suggesting he should partake in that schedule?

Btw, Ginepri is playing Barcelona this year too.

querrey can practice and play on clay until cows come home. he will always be just average if not little worse. he is simply too tall. at best he can get a win or 2 at these masters clay events or the French Open. he just does not have the movement needed for clay. his center of gravity is too high.

last big guy to win the French Open was Gomez but he was not nearly 6 foot 7 like Querrey. and Gomez had a more versatile game than Querrey. Sam can never get that far no matter what he does or even if he was raised on clay.

Noah at nearly 6 foot 4 was an exception as well. the game was slower back then and he played a different but more of an attacking style. he could slice well and he was quite competent at the net. Querrey is just not that good.Yes, I know that. But at least - right now - he is trying. As I have said 14 times already, as soon as he starts doing better on the faster surfaces before and after the clay season, he will dial back his clay tourneys, I am sure of it.

This thread has already turned into a beating of the already-dead horse. I am done with it. Carry on with the same old tired stuff, I'm sure it will be mind-blowingly revolutionary as always.

LoveFifteen
04-18-2008, 04:46 PM
Answer is simple:
Because clay does not support brainless ballbashing and requires some consistency.

:o

Is that why Federer and Becker could never win it? :rolleyes:

Adler
04-18-2008, 04:50 PM
Matyaz has spoken another generalisation. Sometimes clay favors tacticians, sometimes mentally stronger topspin ballbashers (I'm NOT referring to a certain high-ranked Spaniard - I just want to point out the fact that some players need only to hit the ball back to win, because the opponent lacks consistency)

Action Jackson
04-18-2008, 04:55 PM
No, I haven't missed the point. I haven't said anything that contradicts with what you're saying, I'm merely able to recognize the fact that it is unreasonable to expect these guys to play that much on clay. Whether it would be good for them is not the point. the point is that they are not going to do it and there are really excellent reasons for them not doing it, which you are either incapable of or unwilling to realize and/or admit, but that's no surprise. Roddick will be playing 3 consecutive weeks before RG. If he can't find his form on clay by then, playing an extra week or two is not going to help him find it..

Well, Roddick has played Rome, withdrawn from Hamburg and then played on the lake in Austria. This has happened the last 2 seasons. Once he loses early at RG, he gets to go home and then come back for Queens.

What it's unreasonable to expect them to play 3 events on clay?

And that is the point. But at least he gets to take a couple weeks off to get on the clay at home and at least practice on it for a while to try to get his bearings while at the same time recharging for what is a PACKED few months for him - and the same goes for Blake and Fish and whoever else depends on grass and summer HC for their rankings; those guys are playing Houston, getting their feet wet, then taking a couple weeks off after a busy spring to recharge. Look at how many weeks in a row Blake has played and tell me you seriously think it'd be smart for him to go play Monte Carlo and Barcelona and Rome and Hamburg before RG. Yeah, that'd be smart. That'd mean between IW and RG he'd be playing every single week. Surely you are not seriously suggesting he should partake in that schedule?

As much as I love Houston, do you think that should take priority over a TMS event? All the training in the world doesn't help simulate match situations.

Btw, Ginepri is playing Barcelona this year too.

He only wants to go to La Rambla and improve fitness.

zicofirol
04-18-2008, 05:02 PM
Oh no... not this again... *exits thread for good*

groundstroke
04-18-2008, 05:19 PM
Oh no... not this again... *exits thread for good*
lol

TheSwissMaster
04-18-2008, 06:46 PM
i think it has got to do a lot with the americans attitude towards clay, how much serious they
are towards clay.

Pete sampras openly admitted that he just can't play the style of game, the long rallies demanded by the clay courts
which clearly showed his non willingness to improve on clay, to adapt his game to clay,
to add that dimension to his game that is required on clay
its just like he is openly admitting defeat, openly declining the challenge to learn the trade of playing on clay

similarly roddicks attitude towards clay isnt that serious too. last year, how many events did he play on clay and i mean red clay before french, just one and

what was he doing in usa playing on green clay in a 3rd tier event with no competitive players. what help would have green clay given him when french is played on red clay

why wasnt he playing the important clay events held in Europe

so it cleary reflects on his attitude towards clay and ofcourse french open

if he were to be serious, he would have been playing clay events in europe specially the three MS but he didnt and he got the result

and then in his interview after 1st round loss he never looked disappointed. infact he said it will give him more time now to hit on grass and
hell be able to prepare better for wimb, so it clearly showed what was in his mind, ofcourse wimb.

so in summary, it looks like, the americans from start have it in their minds that they simply cant play on clay and so they dont take it seriously rather than than trying to learn to play on clay

now im not saying this is the only reason but this is one of many, thats for sure

Gldngrl
04-18-2008, 07:42 PM
I think it has to do with the American mindset. We don't like to wait for things, and on clay you have to wait for your opportunities. Americans are used to getting immediate gratification. On clay you have to work long and hard for your reward. If it takes too long, we get impatient and even panicked. Trying to force the issue by pulling the trigger too soon on clay can be highly consequential:shrug:

Fee
04-18-2008, 08:35 PM
similarly roddicks attitude towards clay isnt that serious too. last year, how many events did he play on clay and i mean red clay before french, just one and

what was he doing in usa playing on green clay in a 3rd tier event with no competitive players. what help would have green clay given him when french is played on red clay

why wasnt he playing the important clay events held in Europe


He was supporting a USTA tournament and a tournament owner (Mattress Mac) who had supported him when he was a young player coming up (and he was also accepting a big fat appearance check). Houston was played on red clay up until last year. Part of the reason that Andy is not playing the 'new' Houston event this year (which is back on slow red clay, FYI) is because it is not at the McIngvale's club anymore and River Oaks (the new location) did not want to pay him to show up.

He is scheduled to play 3 weeks in a row before RG and I believe he will show up, barring injury.

jcempire
04-19-2008, 06:50 AM
Don Young has an un-typical america game style and he may do better on clay than the current crop.

I believe Young will do much better than others on Clay. His style is a good fix.

Maybe Young is the only guy who will make a big move on FO.