so who are the best clay courters on the planet? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

so who are the best clay courters on the planet?

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Clay Death
04-18-2008, 02:02 AM
so who, in your best estimation, will prove to be the 5 best clay courters on the planet in 2008? its a bit of a guessing game if you will.

here is the way i see it unfolding this year:

1. Clay Monster (Nadal)
2. Djokovic
3. Davydenko
4. Nalby
5. Fed

Monaco and Almagro are out to make a name on clay as well. we will see their progress. Monaco pocketed 2 clay titles last year. Almagro has at least one with a huge win over Nalby. Speaking of Nalby, he too has a clay titile to his name this year already.

thoughts? how do you see it unfolding?

Scotso
04-18-2008, 02:03 AM
1. Nadal
2. Djokovic
3. Federer
4 and so on.... all the runner ups :p

Albop
04-18-2008, 02:05 AM
monaco won 3 titles last year

1 nadal
2 federer
3-almagro
4-djokovic
5-davydenko

Clay Death
04-18-2008, 02:05 AM
1. Nadal
2. Djokovic
3. Federer
4 and so on.... all the runner ups :p

so we have some agreement anyway. by the way, very impressive post count. good work.

Clay Death
04-18-2008, 02:07 AM
monaco won 3 titles last year

1 nadal
2 federer
3-almagro
4-djokovic


my mistake. thanks for the correction. were all 3 on clay? i know he has 2 for a fact on dirt last year.

can you double check? thanks.

groundstroke
04-18-2008, 02:07 AM
1. Nadal
2. Federer
3. Davydenko (very unlucky last year in the French Open)
4. All the other people who reach semi's (Djokovic, Haas, etc)

Albop
04-18-2008, 02:09 AM
my mistake. thanks for the correction. were all 3 on clay? i know he has 2 for a fact on dirt last year.

can you double check? thanks.

yes , buenos aires, Poertschach and Kitzbuhel

Clay Death
04-18-2008, 02:11 AM
yes , buenos aires, Poertschach and Kitzbuhel


splendid. good work.

groundstroke
04-18-2008, 02:13 AM
Why is Djokovic number 2 for you, Clay Death? Has he reached the SF once and come close to winning it 3 times? (Davydenko)
Or even more embarrassingly, Federer destroyed and bagelled the Clay Monster on his own surface and has reached the French Open SF once and FINAL TWICE and yet he's number 5?
Seriously, WTF.

Sunset of Age
04-18-2008, 02:13 AM
1 - Rafa Nadal
2 - Roger Federer
3 - everybody else.

All of this dependent on form, of course.

Scotso
04-18-2008, 02:16 AM
so we have some agreement anyway. by the way, very impressive post count. good work.

:hatoff:

Scotso
04-18-2008, 02:18 AM
Why is Djokovic number 2 for you, Clay Death? Has he reached the SF once and come close to winning it 3 times? (Davydenko)
Or even more embarrassingly, Federer destroyed and bagelled the Clay Monster on his own surface and has reached the French Open SF once and FINAL TWICE and yet he's number 5?
Seriously, WTF.

And Federer has had a horrible year thus far for his standards, so how do you justify putting him so high? This thread is asking for people's opinions, and as you expect to be able to express yours, let other people express theirs.

kobulingam
04-18-2008, 02:18 AM
1 - Rafa Nadal
2 - Roger Federer
3 - everybody else.

All of this dependent on form, of course.

Correct.


1. Nadal
2. Federer
3. Nalbandian
3. Davydenko
3. Djokovic
4. Ferrer
4. Almagro
4. Monaco
5. Vanillla claycourter
5. Vanillla claycourter
5. Vanillla claycourter
5. Vanillla claycourter

Timbo
04-18-2008, 02:20 AM
1. Nadal
2. Federer
3. a piece of cheese
4. Nadal & Fed playing doubles together
5. bye
6. Nalby, Davy, Djokovic, Ferrer
7. Andres Gomez

JimmyV
04-18-2008, 02:22 AM
Correct.


1. Nadal
2. Federer
3. Nalbandian
3. Davydenko
3. Djokovic
4. Ferrer
4. Almagro
4. Monaco
5. Vanillla claycourter
5. Vanillla claycourter
5. Vanillla claycourter
5. Vanillla claycourter

What he said.

jpatatsos
04-18-2008, 02:24 AM
Nadal
Federer
Nalbandian
Davydenko
Djokovic
Ferrer
Almagro
Monaco

Aloimeh
04-18-2008, 02:32 AM
1.) Nadal
2.) Djokovic
3.) Davydenko
4.) Federer, Nalbandian, Almagro
5.) Ferrer

Clay Death
04-18-2008, 02:37 AM
1.) Nadal
2.) Djokovic
3.) Davydenko
4.) Federer, Nalbandian, Almagro
5.) Ferrer

i have the strangest feeling that Fed may be derailed in Estoril. Davydenko has the hot hand and could do it if he can overcome the psychological barrier.

if that happens, we have no choice but drop Fed further down the list. i have already done that.

you may be on the mark.

leng jai
04-18-2008, 02:39 AM
Roddick, provided its Houston.

Johnny Groove
04-18-2008, 02:39 AM
1. This thread has been done waaay too many times in the past month or so and needs to be laid to rest.

2. We all know who the best clay courters are and a thread on the same old shit was unnecessary.

3. I'm surprised no one has composed a list of guys like Roddick, Blake, Donald Young, etc.

4. The thread was started by CD, which means 3 things:

A- It is not to be taken seriously.
B- It is some type of troll attempt
C- Intelligent discussion is forbidden

Now of course, CD will see this post, realize it is the absolute 100% truth and then quote it, call me names like little kid or whatever, and spew some other bullshit as his natural defense.

stable unit
04-18-2008, 02:40 AM
Ferrer, Almagro, Monaco, Nalbandian & Davydenko are all better on clay than Djokovic imo; and it amazes me that people rate Novak so highly on the surface. Obivously Nadal/Fed have to be 1 and 2 for know, but after this season we'll get a fair reflection on Fed i think.

Aloimeh
04-18-2008, 02:43 AM
i have the strangest feeling that that Fed may be derailed in Estoril.

As Dijana would say, "You can write it down."

The king is dead. It's as simple as that. :cool:

In my view the Higueras-Estoril deal is a big mistake. He's likely to lose in Estoril and if he loses to a no-name clown in a MM tournament, that will be a lot more demoralizing than if he had trained on a clay court in Basel and just gone to Monte Carlo and lost there. In a way, he is giving Davydenko a chance to beat him once and for all (and on clay), which will give Davydenko confidence should they meet in an MS or at RG.

Clay Death
04-18-2008, 03:03 AM
As Dijana would say, "You can write it down."

The king is dead. It's as simple as that. :cool:

In my view the Higueras-Estoril deal is a big mistake. He's likely to lose in Estoril and if he loses to a no-name clown in a MM tournament, that will be a lot more demoralizing than if he had trained on a clay court in Basel and just gone to Monte Carlo and lost there. In a way, he is giving Davydenko a chance to beat him once and for all (and on clay), which will give Davydenko confidence should they meet in an MS or at RG.

agreed. Jose really cant help him. its a number of factors that are beyond his control:

1. race against time
2. weakness from illness may persist
3. one handed backhand that can be easily broken down by players who have the consistency off both wings like Djokovic, Nadal, and Davydenko. lets not forget Nalby.

if he loses here, its bleak for the clay season for him.

ZakMcCrack
04-18-2008, 08:19 AM
As Dijana would say, "You can write it down."

The king is dead. It's as simple as that. :cool:

In my view the Higueras-Estoril deal is a big mistake. He's likely to lose in Estoril and if he loses to a no-name clown in a MM tournament, that will be a lot more demoralizing than if he had trained on a clay court in Basel and just gone to Monte Carlo and lost there. In a way, he is giving Davydenko a chance to beat him once and for all (and on clay), which will give Davydenko confidence should they meet in an MS or at RG.

From now on I might as well call the two of you MTF Judge Dredds as you seem to have the power to decide truth and untruth with your apodictic judgments. Your prophetism is truly astohnishing and makes me feel both humble and miniscule. Why don't you let your words of sheer wisdom be written in stone so we can all pilgrim to the sites of your omniscient grandeur and render homage?

Former Prometheus Bound, henceforth named "Clay Death" resurged from his damnation to bring us elucidation. He now troops together his disciples to assist him by words and deeds....:worship:

bokehlicious
04-18-2008, 08:32 AM
1 Nole :cool: :cool:
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
2. Nadal
3. Safin

Hope this helps :shrug:

Boreas
04-18-2008, 08:39 AM
Werner Eschauer by a mile

Kolya
04-18-2008, 09:36 AM
Mayer is the greatest of all time.

Then Nadal, Federer, Davydenko, Nalbandian and Djokovic.

LocoPorElTenis
04-18-2008, 09:47 AM
1) Pablito Cuevas.
2) E. Roger-Vasselin.
3) Winnipeg.
4) T. Muster.
5) V. Spadea.
6) E. Schwank.
7) GGL.
8) R. Harrison.
9) B. Becker.
10) Xristos.

Chiseller
04-18-2008, 10:21 AM
1) Pablito Cuevas.
2) E. Roger-Vasselin.
3) Winnipeg.
4) T. Muster.
5) V. Spadea.
6) E. Schwank.
7) GGL.
8) R. Harrison.
9) B. Becker.
10) Xristos.

Hm.. pretty accurate list but I'd put Xristos above Harrison.

Aphex
04-18-2008, 10:36 AM
Robin "the Toad" Sφderling will swallow all the Masters titles and then pull out of RG as it will present no challenge to him.:cool:

stebs
04-18-2008, 11:16 AM
Nadal
Federer
Davydenko/Djokovic
Loads of guys including Nalbandian/Ferrer/Almagro/Monaco etc...

It is this until proven different in the events that matter.

Montego
04-18-2008, 11:22 AM
Current 52-week ranking on clay only:

1. Nadal
2. Federer
3. Moya
4. Monaco
5. Davydenko
6. Djokovic
7. Almagro
8. Robredo
9. Starace
10. Volandri

Duncan
04-18-2008, 11:25 AM
For me... Roddick all the way!

juninhOH
04-18-2008, 12:13 PM
it's ridiculous not put federer as #2 on clay, really.

to put djokovic ahead of him? what have he won, Estoril?

Kuhne
04-18-2008, 02:05 PM
Why Roddick and Blake of course, dumb question

gnaz
04-18-2008, 02:07 PM
ATP Tour - Claycourt Rankings

With the ATP claycourt season beginning this week in Estoril we have calculated who is the best (Rafael Nadal) and who is in contention to be the best (nobody else) on our favourite type of dirt.


The triple Roland Garros champion dominates our opening ranking on the slow stuff, as he surely will throughout the claycourt season.

Equally obvious is two-time French Open runner-up Roger Federer's stranglehold on the number two position.

What's surprising, however, is that Spaniard Nicolas Almagro pips world number three Novak Djokovic, former French Open champion Carlos Moya, and two-time Roland Garros semi-finalist Nikolay Davydenko to the third spot.

How did the world number 27 accomplish such a feat you ask? Very simple, by winning two clacycourt crowns already this year (Costa Do Sauipe, Acapulco), a third in 2007 (Valencia) and placing runner-up at last year's Bastad Open.

For the purposes of accuracy and science, we have included every clay event on the ATP calendar along with the past seven French Opens, and weighted everything in accordance with the level of each tournament.

Doing well at the 2007 French Open is worth double what a player would get for doing well at the three claycourt Masters events and a little more than triple the value of the International Series tournaments.

Formula:

10 winner; 6 runner-up; 4 semi-finalist; 2 quarter-finalist: 2007 French Open

5 winner; 3 runner-up; 2 semi-finalist; 1 quarter-finalist: Monte Carlo Masters, Rome Masters, Hamburg Masters, 2006 French Open

3 winner; 2 runner-up; 1 semi-finalist: Vina del Mar, Costa Do Suaipe, Buenos Aires, Acapulco, Estoril, Valencia, Houston, Barcelona, Munich, Poertschach, Casablanca, Sopot, Stuttgart, Gstaad, Bastad, Kitzbuhel, Amersfoort, Umag, Bucharest, 2005 French Open

1 bonus point for any semi-final or better at French Open 2001-2004

2008 Claycourt Rankings - ATP world ranking in brackets



1. [2] Rafael Nadal (ESP) 37 points

2. [1] Roger Federer (SUI) 18

3. [27] Nicolas Almagro (ESP) 12

4. [3] Novak Djokovic (SRB) 10

5. [16] Carlos Moya (ESP) 10

6. [4] Nikolay Davydenko (RUS) 8

7. [7] David Nalbandian (ARG) 8

8. [17] Juan Monaco (ARG) 8

9. [12] Paul-Henri Mathieu (FRA) 7

10. [14] Fernando Gonzalez (CHI) 7

11. [5] David Ferrer (ESP) 6

12. [18] Tommy Robredo (ESP) 6

13. [19] Juan Carlos Ferrero (ARG) 5

14. [23] Guillermo Canas (ARG) 5

15. [40] Jose Acasuso (ARG) 5

16. [24] Philipp Kohlschreiber (GER) 4

17. [9] Tomas Berdych (CZE) 4

18. [33] Gilles Simon (FRA) 4

19. [39] Potito Starace (ITA) 4

20. [45] Filippo Volandri (ITA) 4

21. [59] Albert Montanes (ESP) 4

FedFan
04-18-2008, 02:42 PM
so who, in your best estimation, will prove to be the 5 best clay courters on the planet in 2008? its a bit of a guessing game if you will.

here is the way i see it unfolding this year:

1. Clay Monster (Nadal)
2. Djokovic
3. Davydenko
4. Nalby
5. Fed

Monaco and Almagro are out to make a name on clay as well. we will see their progress. Monaco pocketed 2 clay titles last year. Almagro has at least one with a huge win over Nalby. Speaking of Nalby, he too has a clay titile to his name this year already.

thoughts? how do you see it unfolding?

Your list is based on wishful thinking and has absolutely nothig to do with the reality.

Check the results and you will get the real rankings on clay.

Nadal is the clear leader, and Federer is obviously number two. End of the story. :wavey:

Clay Death
04-18-2008, 03:45 PM
ATP Tour - Claycourt Rankings

With the ATP claycourt season beginning this week in Estoril we have calculated who is the best (Rafael Nadal) and who is in contention to be the best (nobody else) on our favourite type of dirt.


The triple Roland Garros champion dominates our opening ranking on the slow stuff, as he surely will throughout the claycourt season.

Equally obvious is two-time French Open runner-up Roger Federer's stranglehold on the number two position.

What's surprising, however, is that Spaniard Nicolas Almagro pips world number three Novak Djokovic, former French Open champion Carlos Moya, and two-time Roland Garros semi-finalist Nikolay Davydenko to the third spot.

How did the world number 27 accomplish such a feat you ask? Very simple, by winning two clacycourt crowns already this year (Costa Do Sauipe, Acapulco), a third in 2007 (Valencia) and placing runner-up at last year's Bastad Open.

For the purposes of accuracy and science, we have included every clay event on the ATP calendar along with the past seven French Opens, and weighted everything in accordance with the level of each tournament.

Doing well at the 2007 French Open is worth double what a player would get for doing well at the three claycourt Masters events and a little more than triple the value of the International Series tournaments.

Formula:

10 winner; 6 runner-up; 4 semi-finalist; 2 quarter-finalist: 2007 French Open

5 winner; 3 runner-up; 2 semi-finalist; 1 quarter-finalist: Monte Carlo Masters, Rome Masters, Hamburg Masters, 2006 French Open

3 winner; 2 runner-up; 1 semi-finalist: Vina del Mar, Costa Do Suaipe, Buenos Aires, Acapulco, Estoril, Valencia, Houston, Barcelona, Munich, Poertschach, Casablanca, Sopot, Stuttgart, Gstaad, Bastad, Kitzbuhel, Amersfoort, Umag, Bucharest, 2005 French Open

1 bonus point for any semi-final or better at French Open 2001-2004

2008 Claycourt Rankings - ATP world ranking in brackets



1. [2] Rafael Nadal (ESP) 37 points

2. [1] Roger Federer (SUI) 18

3. [27] Nicolas Almagro (ESP) 12

4. [3] Novak Djokovic (SRB) 10

5. [16] Carlos Moya (ESP) 10

6. [4] Nikolay Davydenko (RUS) 8

7. [7] David Nalbandian (ARG) 8

8. [17] Juan Monaco (ARG) 8

9. [12] Paul-Henri Mathieu (FRA) 7

10. [14] Fernando Gonzalez (CHI) 7

11. [5] David Ferrer (ESP) 6

12. [18] Tommy Robredo (ESP) 6

13. [19] Juan Carlos Ferrero (ARG) 5

14. [23] Guillermo Canas (ARG) 5

15. [40] Jose Acasuso (ARG) 5

16. [24] Philipp Kohlschreiber (GER) 4

17. [9] Tomas Berdych (CZE) 4

18. [33] Gilles Simon (FRA) 4

19. [39] Potito Starace (ITA) 4

20. [45] Filippo Volandri (ITA) 4

21. [59] Albert Montanes (ESP) 4

subjectively speaking, Fed takes a big hit if he fails to win in Estoril.

Clay Death
04-18-2008, 04:29 PM
Your list is based on wishful thinking and has absolutely nothig to do with the reality.

Check the results and you will get the real rankings on clay.

Nadal is the clear leader, and Federer is obviously number two. End of the story. :wavey:


i said at the very beginning that it will be a subjective list based on how you saw things unfolding on clay.

Merton
04-18-2008, 05:53 PM
This is very easy:

1. Vasilis Mazarakis
2. Emilio Sanchez
3. Maria Sharapova

Vasilis finds tennis too competitive in Greece so he plans a career switch to basketball, where it will be much easier for him in Greece. Emilio Sanchez will need all his time to design the optimal strategy against the US powerhouse on clay so he will not play either. That leaves Maria Sharapova, it is clear that she will ask for a WC for the men's main draw where she will overpower the opposition marching to the title by losing at most 10 games the entire tournament.

FiBeR
04-18-2008, 05:55 PM
Roddick, Blake, Ljubicic, Sampras..

Adler
04-18-2008, 06:00 PM
1. Clay Monster (Nadal)
http://tyler.warrensphere.com:8080/card101.jpg

AsianSensation
04-18-2008, 09:34 PM
1. Ryan Harrison

The rest is irrelevant

Clay Death
04-18-2008, 09:41 PM
http://tyler.warrensphere.com:8080/card101.jpg


:haha::haha::haha::haha::haha::haha:

Adler
04-18-2008, 10:03 PM
Don't get too funny. Stay away from The Clay Monster - he'll eat you up alive with his carnivorous topspin

possible occurrence : Mediterranean (Monte Carlo, Barcelona, Rome, sometimes Mallorca)

groundstroke
04-18-2008, 11:07 PM
Federer bagelled and destroyed the Clay Monster.

Clay Death
04-18-2008, 11:34 PM
Federer bagelled and destroyed the Clay Monster.

Clay Monster never loses on the red clay Roland Garros. i suppose you will fast invent a way to argue with that little fact as well.

he also never loses on clay if the match is best of 5 sets foremat. he is 21-0 at Roland Garros and 34-0 lifetime on dirt in matches that are best of 5 sets foremats.

Vida
04-18-2008, 11:58 PM
Clay Monster never loses on the red clay Roland Garros. i suppose you will fast invent a way to argue with that little fact as well.

he also never loses on clay if the match is best of 5 sets foremat. he is 21-0 at Roland Garros and 34-0 lifetime on dirt in matches that are best of 5 sets foremats.

djokovic has greater chances of winning Nadal than Fed has. We will see how he fairs on clay, but I'd say, from the belly, at MS djoko, fed vs nadal are 40, 30, and at RG, 30, 20 percent. around.

Aloimeh
04-19-2008, 12:04 AM
djokovic has greater chances of winning Nadal than Fed has. We will see how he fairs on clay, but I'd say, from the belly, at MS djoko, fed vs nadal are 40, 30, and at RG, 30, 20 percent. around.

Expect a bash by resident Federeresian P. Antonius.

l_mac
04-19-2008, 12:07 AM
djokovic has greater chances of winning Nadal than Fed has. We will see how he fairs on clay, but I'd say, from the belly, at MS djoko, fed vs nadal are 40, 30, and at RG, 30, 20 percent. around.

I guess we'll see. Nole had nothing against Nadal on clay last year, but maybe he has honed his skills.

What am I saying, doubting Future Golden GOAT :haha: :haha: My apologies. Nole for clay sweep! Federer will be lucky to be Top 10 in the Race after the clay season.

:retard:

Aloimeh
04-19-2008, 12:21 AM
I guess we'll see. Nole had nothing against Nadal on clay last year, but maybe he has honed his skills.

What am I saying, doubting Future Golden GOAT :haha: :haha: My apologies. Nole for clay sweep! Federer will be lucky to be Top 10 in the Race after the clay season.

:retard:

http://www.minoanatlantis.com/pix/Akrotiri_golden_goat.jpg

Vida
04-19-2008, 12:28 AM
Expect a bash by resident Federeresian P. Antonius.

don't care.

l_mac
04-19-2008, 12:29 AM
http://www.minoanatlantis.com/pix/Akrotiri_golden_goat.jpg

Not bad. But I have better ones :devil:

Vida
04-19-2008, 12:30 AM
http://www.minoanatlantis.com/pix/Akrotiri_golden_goat.jpg

nice one.

Clay Death
04-19-2008, 01:27 AM
Expect a bash by resident Federeresian P. Antonius.


resident Federeresians are in hibernation. should resurface like hapless termites if Fed wins the micky mouse event of the century in Estoril.

Corey Feldman
04-19-2008, 01:38 AM
djokovic has greater chances of winning Nadal than Fed has. We will see how he fairs on clay, but I'd say, from the belly, at MS djoko, fed vs nadal are 40, 30, and at RG, 30, 20 percent. around.http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g239/GeorgeWH/GWH2/BullShit.jpg

Clay Death
04-19-2008, 01:40 AM
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g239/GeorgeWH/GWH2/BullShit.jpg


now i am entertained. :worship:

Albop
04-19-2008, 01:45 AM
djokovic has greater chances of winning Nadal than Fed has. We will see how he fairs on clay, but I'd say, from the belly, at MS djoko, fed vs nadal are 40, 30, and at RG, 30, 20 percent. around.

http://www.all4humor.com/images/files/Stupid%20Haircut.jpg

TankingTheSet
04-19-2008, 02:00 AM
:speakles: :tape: I'll be sick for the forseeable future.

Halba
04-19-2008, 03:03 AM
federer is a brilliant clay court player. love it when he plays good on the red stuff.

Apemant
04-19-2008, 08:08 AM
resident Federeresians are in hibernation. should resurface like hapless termites if Fed wins the micky mouse event of the century in Estoril.

Precisely, they would swarm this place, while trolls like you would then hide - at least until Fed suffers another defeat. It's the same story all over again, the curious thing is that you don't recognize that you belong to the lot yourself - just a marginally different flavour.

Clay Death
04-29-2008, 12:22 AM
federer is a brilliant clay court player. love it when he plays good on the red stuff.


Fed has lost just 1 match on dirt so far. he has to be moved up the list while Nalby and Djokovic will need to be moved down.

i think Ferrer moves up.

GlennMirnyi
04-29-2008, 12:28 AM
R=FK at it again.

Best claycourters award should be given to either Anderson, Tursunov or Ginepri.

jcempire
04-29-2008, 12:30 AM
so who, in your best estimation, will prove to be the 5 best clay courters on the planet in 2008? its a bit of a guessing game if you will.

here is the way i see it unfolding this year:

1. Clay Monster (Nadal)
2. Djokovic
3. Davydenko
4. Nalby
5. Fed

Monaco and Almagro are out to make a name on clay as well. we will see their progress. Monaco pocketed 2 clay titles last year. Almagro has at least one with a huge win over Nalby. Speaking of Nalby, he too has a clay titile to his name this year already.

thoughts? how do you see it unfolding?

1. Clay Monster (Nadal)
2. Fed
3. Davydenko
4. Ferer
5. Djokovic

Knightmace
04-29-2008, 12:31 AM
Rafa
Roger
Novak
Other.

Clay Death
04-29-2008, 01:24 AM
1. Clay Monster (Nadal)
2. Fed
3. Davydenko
4. Ferer
5. Djokovic

i would probably move Ferrer to #3 since he does have a clay title to his name already in 2008. he beat Almagro in 3 tough sets in Valencia.

Djokovic does support a pretty good record on clay.

Pigsarestupid
04-29-2008, 01:31 AM
so who, in your best estimation, will prove to be the 5 best clay courters on the planet in 2008? its a bit of a guessing game if you will.

here is the way i see it unfolding this year:

1. Clay Monster (Nadal)
2. Djokovic
3. Davydenko
4. Nalby
5. Fed

Monaco and Almagro are out to make a name on clay as well. we will see their progress. Monaco pocketed 2 clay titles last year. Almagro has at least one with a huge win over Nalby. Speaking of Nalby, he too has a clay titile to his name this year already.

thoughts? how do you see it unfolding?

Why would anyone think Djokovic is a better player on clay than Federer? What a clown list, Nalbandian, Ferrer and Davydenko are better claycourters than Djokovic too. To be honest I was open for the possibility that he had improved as much on clay as on harcourt this year, but without any evidence of this, you cant put him infront of Federer on a list.

Who has Djokovic ever beaten on clay? Has he ever taken a set from Nadal?

But yeah, beating Murray on clay must count for something, right?

Clay Death
04-29-2008, 01:35 AM
Why would anyone think Djokovic is a better player on clay than Federer? What a clown list, Nalbandian, Ferrer and Davydenko are better claycourters than Djokovic too.

Who has Djokovic ever beaten on clay? Has he ever taken a set from Nadal?

But yeah, beating Murray on clay must count for something, right?

there is no question that we have to push Djokovic down the list now. his loss to Fed and in a manner that he lost is unacceptable. he had been destroying everybody in Monte Carlo so i am not buying anything. i dont think he was tired.

perhaps something was bothering him mentally. i need to hear more about what really happened and why he retired. he is one of my favorite players now but i dont subscribe to running away from the challenge without a damn good reason.

he has the game to take down Fed on any surface.

Pigsarestupid
04-29-2008, 01:42 AM
there is no question that we have to push Djokovic down the list now. his loss to Fed and in a manner that he lost is unacceptable. he had been destroying everybody in Monte Carlo so i am not buying anything. i dont think he was tired.

perhaps something was bothering him mentally. i need to hear more about what really happened and why he retired. he is one of my favorite players now but i dont subscribe to running away from the challenge without a damn good reason.

he has the game to take down Fed on any surface.

No, he doesnt have the game to take Fed down on clay or grass. He just plays hardcourt tennis on all surfaces. Too high risktaking on clay and he doesnt move as smoothly on clay as Federer. On grass he doesnt have good enought passing shots, touch, slices and volleys to beat Federer.

On hardcourt it will probably be 50/50 from now on, there he surely is best or 2nd best.

Clay Death
04-29-2008, 01:50 AM
No, he doesnt have the game to take Fed down on clay or grass. He just plays hardcourt tennis on all surfaces. Too high risktaking on clay and he doesnt move as smoothly on clay as Federer. On grass he doesnt have good enought passing shots, touch, slices and volleys to beat Federer.

On hardcourt it will probably be 50/50 from now on, there he surely is best or 2nd best.


i think you may be right about grass. Fed has shown considerable mastery on grass. it would be great if we can see the two of them go at it Wimby.

hard courts go Djokovic and as for clay, they need to play each other some more.

With Fed getting a little older now, the Djokovic could have the edge down the road.

Merton
04-29-2008, 02:15 AM
R=FK at it again.

Best claycourters award should be given to either Anderson, Tursunov or Ginepri.

Wrong there, Maria Sharapova would clearly overpower the entire ATP on clay if she bothered to enter on the men's draw at RG.

Clay Death
04-29-2008, 02:31 AM
Wrong there, Maria Sharapova would clearly overpower the entire ATP on clay if she bothered to enter on the men's draw at RG.


right. she could easily overpower them in bed with her world class screaming and grunting.

JediFed
04-29-2008, 02:33 AM
On hardcourt it will probably be 50/50 from now on, there he surely is best or 2nd best.


How can he be the best on Hard courts without a USO title? Crazyness.

Clay Death
04-29-2008, 02:36 AM
How can he be the best on Hard courts without a USO title? Crazyness.


Toronto Masters title is in the bag for Djokovic. Fed was his victim there. Fed was his victim again at the Australian Open and that slam is in the bag.

have some patience. U.S. Open title will be in the bag as well for Djokovic in 2008. you can make book on it.

JediFed
04-29-2008, 03:02 AM
have some patience. U.S. Open title will be in the bag as well for Djokovic in 2008. you can make book on it.


No wonder Djokovic finally won a title while you were banned! :devil:

Clay Death
04-29-2008, 03:21 AM
No wonder Djokovic finally won a title while you were banned! :devil:


i am who i say i am. i have never been banned here. rfk posts on t4u now.

Bibberz
04-29-2008, 04:31 AM
i am who i say i am. i have never been banned here. rfk posts on t4u now.

(1) I believe you. You write differently than R=FK, and he's not clever enough to consistently write in a different style.

(2) Don't call him "RFK"--that's reserved for Robert Francis Kennedy.

TNX1.0E6TOPCA
04-29-2008, 11:30 AM
King on Clay of The Planet

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v694/mypixforum/king_clay.jpg



:wavey:

Clay Death
04-29-2008, 01:31 PM
(1) I believe you. You write differently than R=FK, and he's not clever enough to consistently write in a different style.

(2) Don't call him "RFK"--that's reserved for Robert Francis Kennedy.


he posts on t4u from time to time. anybody knows when his suspension ends?

Clay Death
04-29-2008, 01:34 PM
King on Clay of The Planet

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v694/mypixforum/king_clay.jpg



:wavey:

he is definitely the king. he needs to pick up his game a little. he didnt really play all that well against Fed. it was Fed`s 44 unforced errors in just 2 sets that was the story of the match.

i think Nadal himself may have had 22 which is not acceptable. he did tighten his game a little after being down 4-0 in the second.

GlennMirnyi
04-29-2008, 03:30 PM
No wonder Djokovic finally won a title while you were banned! :devil:

:lol:

i am who i say i am. i have never been banned here. rfk posts on t4u now.

Yeah and I'm Constantine the great.

(1) I believe you. You write differently than R=FK, and he's not clever enough to consistently write in a different style.

(2) Don't call him "RFK"--that's reserved for Robert Francis Kennedy.

You're naive.

l_mac
04-29-2008, 03:32 PM
RFK didn't start posting at t4u till around the same time CD showed up here.

They seem like the same poster to me.

GlennMirnyi
04-29-2008, 03:33 PM
RFK didn't start posting at t4u till around the same time CD showed up here.

They seem like the same poster to me.

They ARE the same person.

TheSwissMaster
04-29-2008, 03:56 PM
1.rafael
2.nadal
3.rafael nadal
4.nadal, rafael
5.pig (sorry, hehe)
6._ _ _ picker
7.rafa, no
8.clay monster
9.roger

bwahahahaha

tulsatea
04-29-2008, 04:24 PM
1-Nadal
2-Federer
3-The Joker
4-Sam Querrey

CyBorg
04-29-2008, 04:29 PM
Ivo Karlovic is probably in the top 10.

platinum
04-29-2008, 07:03 PM
Nadal
Federer
Davydenko
Ferrer
Nole
Nalbandian

Clay Death
04-29-2008, 10:20 PM
1-Nadal
2-Federer
3-The Joker
4-Sam Querrey

Sam is useless.

Sunset of Age
04-29-2008, 10:36 PM
1: Rafa
2: Roger

(BIG BIG LEAP here)

3 - 10,000: everybody else.

Alex999
04-29-2008, 11:03 PM
I need to see Davydenko/Ferrer/Nalbandian vs. Djokovic on clay to form an opinion. Perhaps in Rome. I think that Novak is mentally stronger and more consistent than Pics or Kolya, so a slight edge goes to Novak.
1. Ndal
2. Federer
3. Djokovic/Nalbandian(probably, but not sure)
4. Ferrer/Davydenko/Nalbandian

Clay Death
04-29-2008, 11:04 PM
1: Rafa
2: Roger

(BIG BIG LEAP here)

3 - 10,000: everybody else.


we will need to keep an eye on Nalby and Ferrer. Ferrer may be the 3rd best on clay this year at the current rate.

my ranking may look like this when the clay season is over:

1. Nadal
2. Fed
3. Ferrer
4. Nalby
5. Djokovic

Sunset of Age
04-29-2008, 11:07 PM
we will need to keep an eye on Nalby and Ferrer. Ferrer may be the 3rd best on clay this year at the current rate.

my ranking may look like this when the clay season is over:

1. Nadal
2. Fed
3. Ferrer
4. Nalby
5. Djokovic

Must admit that's quite a reasonable quess.
Although I first have to SEE myself about Nalby and Djoko against Raf on clay - I think he'll rip them to pieces, if I'm honest. :D

Montego
04-29-2008, 11:10 PM
Rankings by points gathered on clay in last 52 weeks:

1. Nadal
2. Federer
3. Davydenko
4. Almagro
5. Djokovic
6. Moya
7. Monaco
8. Volandri
9. Robredo
10. Starace

But these are just points. I would get rid of Moya and Starace now and put Ferrer and Andreev in the Top10

Clay Death
04-29-2008, 11:10 PM
Must admit that's quite a reasonable quess.
Although I first have to SEE myself about Nalby and Djoko against Raf on clay - I think he'll rip them to pieces, if I'm honest. :D


you may get a chance to see Nalby against the Clay Monster in Barcelona. we will see how is plays out. Nadal owes Nalby big time. it needs to be total destruction.

Sunset of Age
04-29-2008, 11:12 PM
you may get a chance to see Nalby against the Clay Monster in Barcelona. we will see how is plays out. Nadal owes Nalby big time. it needs to be total destruction.

I hope I can get my hands (eyes) on a livestream for that one (if it indeed happens, as Nalby already had a very tough match against Callieri today).

michellej
04-29-2008, 11:14 PM
Clay article...

ATP Tour - Claycourt Rankings: New No. 3
Eurosport - Tue, 29 Apr 11:18:00 2008
EXCLUSIVE! After his semi-finals performance at Monte Carlo in-form Russian Nikolay Davydenko overtakes Nicolas Almagro at third in Eurosport's latest ATP claycourt rankings.


Nadal makes Monte Carlo history
The world number four backed up his runner-up showing in Estoril with a fine set of results in the first claycourt Masters event of the season.

Spain's Almagro slips down the ladder for the first time this year, but already has eight secure points in 2008 thanks to his two titles in South America and runner-up showing in Valencia.

With Rafael Nadal and Roger Federer firmly entrenched in the top two positions, the battle of the season now becomes for that number three place.

World number three Novak Djokovic keeps his deficit from Davydenko at three points, making up for the decision not to defend his Estoril title by earning semi-final points at Monte Carlo to move back up three places to sixth in the rankings.

There was one major winner in the bottom half of the top-20, meanwhile, as French Open quarter-finalist Igor Andreev rocketed up seven places to 15th thanks to a quarter-final appearance in Monte Carlo

Clay Death
04-29-2008, 11:14 PM
It's hard to judge by points because some players played more tournaments on clay than the others.


points mean nothing to me right now. its all about the top 3-5 anyway.

i think we have to start giving Ferru more consideration if he continues to play well. i have a feeling that if he can get by Canas, he may be in the finals in Barcelona.

Halba
04-30-2008, 07:27 AM
1. NADAL

2. FEDERER

FedAL rule on clay. no question. Federer had numerous chances in RG 2006, he won the first set, blew it. Took nadal to almost 5 hr marathon in rome in 2006, blew it. Got beat in MC 2007 6-4 6-4 after having chances. Blew it. Got beat in MC 2008 7-5 7-5 had chances. Blew it. Fed is getting close. The rest of the field have no chance against Fed on clay in form (Djoko blown away, Nalby amazing play in 1st set but blown away).

BIG LEAP to the rest

3. DJOKOVIC(still bagelling other players)

4. DAVYDENKO

5. DAVID FERRER

6. NALBY

**

BIG LEAP TO REST of the field. random.

VolandriFan
04-30-2008, 10:48 AM
1. Nadal
2. Federer
3. Nalbandian
4. Djokovic
5. Ferrer
6. Davydenko

Other players of note are Monaco, Almagro, Robredo, Volandri, Andreev, Starace, Ferrero, Moya and Canas.

Kolya
04-30-2008, 12:26 PM
Nadal
Federer
Then the contenders: Nalbi, Nole, Kolya (tied).
Then the rest of pretenders.

virex
04-30-2008, 12:28 PM
tursunov :worship:

two wins on clay in barcelona

Clay Death
04-30-2008, 01:35 PM
1. Nadal
2. Federer
3. Nalbandian
4. Djokovic
5. Ferrer
6. Davydenko

Other players of note are Monaco, Almagro, Robredo, Volandri, Andreev, Starace, Ferrero, Moya and Canas.

keep an eye on Ferrer as i have suggested. if he gets into another final here, he moves up this list.

Chiseller
04-30-2008, 03:32 PM
1. Nadal
2. Fed
3. Ferrer
4. Nalby
5. Djokovic

12 Days ago

1. Clay Monster (Nadal)
2. Djokovic
3. Davydenko
4. Nalby
5. Fed


:hatoff:

Eden
05-28-2008, 06:45 PM
Surface Advantage: The hottest clay players

Some players get a boost on the slow, high-bouncing clay courts, while others suffer. Standings for a hypothetical "French Open Series" help us identify the best performers on European clay over the past year.

By Robert Waltz

THE MEN

Top Four

Clay position Player
(ATP rank) Name

1 (2) Rafael Nadal
2 (1) Roger Federer
3 (3) Novak Djokovic
4 (4) Nikolay Davydenko
5 (5) David Ferrer
6 (13) Tommy Robredo
7 (10) Stanislas Wawrinka
8 (20) Nicolas Almagro
9 (23) Fernando Verdasco
10 (17) Carlos Moya
11 (28) Igor Andreev
12 (14) Juan Monaco
13 (32) Andreas Seppi
13 (30) Guillermo Canas
15 (7) David Nalbandian
16 (22) Radek Stepanek
17 (25) Fernando Gonzalez
18 (33) Janko Tipsarevic
18 (6) Andy Roddick
20 (24) Juan Carlos Ferrero
21 (21) Ivo Karlovic
22 (11) Andy Murray
23 (19) Paul-Henri Mathieu
24 (16) Mikhail Youzhny
25 (29) Ivan Ljubicic
25 (27) Jarrko Nieminen.
25 (26) Lleyton Hewitt
25 (18) Marcos Baghdatis
29 (8) James Blake
30 (9) Richard Gasquet
31 (35) Phillip Kohlschreiber
32 (31) Dmitry Tursunov
33 (34) Feliciano Lopez
34 (15) Jo-Wilfried Tsonga
35 (12) Tomas Berdych

Clay
Points

2305
1700
1400
945
665
635
560
430
395
385
370
335
315
315
305
265
255
230
230
225
220
185
165
160
150
150
150
150
135
120
115
75
45
40
10


* Clay points formula:
Monte Carlo, Barcelona/Munich, Rome, Hamburg, French Open 2007

1. Rafael Nadal – No surprise here. He's No. 2 in the rankings, and not even a particularly strong No. 2 these days. But this is clay: he's won two Masters plus Barcelona this year, and Roland Garros last year. It's not that Federer was bad – after all, he came in second – but Nadal was simply Nadal, and comes out on top with a substantial lead.

2. Roger Federer – Just one small title at Estoril, but he did also reach two Masters finals and the French Open final last year. Not Nadalesque, but good enough to be second best.

3. Novak Djokovic – He may only have had to win three matches to win Rome, but a title is a title. Throw in two other Masters semifinals and last year's French semifinal, and it adds up to enough to put him at No. 3, the same as his ATP ranking.

4. Nikolay Davydenko – Another player with the same clay position as his ATP ranking, Davydenko reached the final in Estoril and the semifinals in Monte Carlo before losing early at Rome and Hamburg. He reached the semifinals of the French last year.

Moving Up

• Tommy Robredo – He goes up to No. 6, much higher than his ATP ranking of No. 14. Robredo has had a disappointing year, but he made the French quarterfinal last year, and this year added a semifinal at Valencia, a third round at Monte Carlo, quarterfinals at Barcelona and Rome, and a second round at Hamburg. His overall record this year is a weak 13-11 – but his clay record is 11-5.

• Stanislas Wawrinka – Reaching the Rome final moved him way up in the rankings (No. 10 from No. 24), and even higher in the clay standings

• Nicolas Almagro – He had an even better proportional move than Robredo, going from #20 to #8. What's more, he won clay events at Costa do Sauipe and Acapulco, which weren't counted for this list (see clay points formula). But he had to miss Hamburg with injury.

• Fernando Verdasco – He likes hardcourts and historically hasn't been as strong a clay specialist as some Spaniards. Even this year, he hasn't been spectacular, though he did make a quarterfinal at Hamburg.

• Andreas Seppi – Ranked outside the Top 30, but No. 13 on the clay list thanks to a semifinal run in Hamburg, where he knocked out some very solid players.

• Igor Andreev – Not the most consistent performer, but has clay wins this year over Youzhny, Tursunov, Almagro, Monfils, and Monaco.

Moving Down

• Andy Roddick – Had one very nice result, reaching the Rome semifinal, but got hurt in the process and had to pull out of the French Open altogether

• James Blake – Despite having reached the final at Houston, he took a beating on clay once the tour moved into Europe.

• David Nalbandian – A mystery. As usual. His clay record this year is 12-4. But nine of the twelve wins were in Latin America (he won Buenos Aires and made the final at Acapulco). He made the quarterfinal at Monte Carlo, lost in the third round at Barcelona, lost his opener at Rome, and didn't play Hamburg. No telling what all that means for Paris.

• Andy Murray – There's no reason why he shouldn't be able to play on clay, but so far in his career, he hasn't been able to produce any good results on this surface. This season has been no different.

• Richard Gasquet – Suffering a crisis of confidence that has nothing to do with surface.

Several men who fall in the list are affected by factors other than surface: An injured Tomas Berdych and Marcos Baghdatis have hardly played this spring. Jo-Wilfried Tsonga was hurt for part of the clay season, too.

Source: http://www.tennis.com/features/general/features.aspx?id=131124

Manon
05-28-2008, 07:18 PM
Great post. Thanks.

Clay Death
05-29-2008, 05:31 AM
Great post. Thanks.


check out this article i found on espn.com. by the way, i think Djokovic`s stock on clay soars in recent weeks. he is clearly the 2nd best on clay based on current form. Fed wouldnt have a prayer against him.

Unblemished Nadal aiming to build on historical French run
By Greg Garber
ESPN.com
(Archive)
Updated: May 23, 2008, 11:59 AM ET
Comment
Email
Print

AP Photo/Michel Spingler

No one has come close to matching Rafael Nadal's strength in mind or body on clay courts.
History hangs in the spring air at Roland Garros, heavier than the pollen drifting from the trees populating the adjacent park, Bois de Boulogne.



Walk through the iron gates and across the gray cobblestones, and you can feel it. Head toward charming Court 1, the original stadium court, and you can actually see it: the worn stone replica of the Davis Cup trophy that the French Musketeers -- Rene Lacoste, Henri Cochet, Jean Borotra and Jacques Brugnon -- brought back from America in 1927.



A tribute to this magnificent feat was called for, so the Stade Francais club donated seven acres of land in the southwest corner of Paris to the French Tennis Federation. The glorious result was Roland Garros, named for the aviation pioneer, the first man to fly across the Mediterranean. Since 1925, when the federation opened the French Open championships to athletes of all nations, only one player, Bjorn Borg (1978-81), has managed to win four straight titles.



On the first weekend in June, a second player could join him in that uberexclusive club: Rafael Nadal.



He grew up in Spain, where clay is the only surface of consequence. Unlike grass and hard-court surfaces that can change drastically from venue to venue, year to year, clay is eternal. At Roland Garros, a timeless place, Nadal reigns on a stage of living, breathing earth.



Chris Evert, who won seven French Open titles from 1974 to '86, says that Nadal approaches this Grand Slam with a greater sense of urgency than the others.



"The best chance [he has] for a Grand Slam is the French Open," Evert said. "Any other Grand Slam [he wins]," Evert said, "it's great, it's a bonus.



"Nadal, this is his baby."

In a demanding and turbulent world, clay is his refuge. He is undeniably the best pure clay-court player of his generation and, perhaps, in all of history. Roland Garros, in particular, is where there always seems to be enough time and space to prevail, a place where patience and perseverance, guts and guile, remain virtues.



Nadal, who turns 22 on June 3, owns Roland Garros.



His record at Roland Garros is a scintillating 21-0; Nadal has never even been extended to a fifth set. All three of his Grand Slam titles have come at the French Open. On clay for his career, Nadal has won 145 of 159 matches, an amazing percentage of .912.



Evert believes this potential achievement comes with a greater degree of difficulty than the time of Borg.



"I think it's harder than it used to be because there's more competition now," she said. "It's interesting when people look at me and say, 'Well, you won 18 Grand Slams.' And I say, 'Yeah, I did,' but I didn't have people coming out of countries like Croatia, China. I mean, the players are coming out of the woodwork now. There's more depth, there's more competition.



"I think it is harder to win a Grand Slam or win consecutive Grand Slams, absolutely."



Less than two weeks before this year's French Open, Justine Henin abruptly announced her retirement. She said she was physically and emotionally beaten after five years at the top of women's tennis. She, too, had been in position for the rare four-peat.



Henin's stunning absence at Roland Garros underlines the difficulty of Nadal's task.


Born to be the best



Dinner, in the swirling vortex that is Rome, beckoned. Still, Alex Corretja had a few moments earlier this month to talk about his gifted countryman.



"Heavy, high topspin, great footwork, power, stamina," Corretja said, cataloguing Nadal's physical gifts. "And, because he's a lefty, he bothers opponents even more."



Corretja won 17 ATP titles, including the Italian Open in 1997, and is now part of Andy Murray's coaching team. Corretja reached the final at Roland Garros twice, losing to Carlos Moya in 1998 and Gustavo Kuerten in 2001.



Nadal's greatest weapon, according to Corretja? His mind.



"He has the mental power," Corretja said. "He believes he was born to be the best. He doesn't think he can ever lose."


Rafa will play the calendar the way it is and prove again that he is the best.
-- Alex Corretja


On clay, it is very nearly true. In a span of more than three years, Nadal lost a single match on clay. One.



Between a straight-sets loss to Igor Andreev in early April 2005 at Valencia, Spain, and a 7-5, 6-1 second-round defeat by Juan Carlos Ferrero earlier this month in Rome, Nadal won 103 of 104 matches on dirt. The exception: a three-set loss to Roger Federer in the 2007 final at Hamburg. Nadal returned the favor last week, defeating Federer in a three-set final.



Nadal's success, coupled with a stubbornness in playing a demanding schedule that included the relatively minor tournament in Barcelona and a doubles victory in Monte Carlo, makes winning this French Open a more challenging task. His grinding style and the forgiveness of clay that makes for longer points, games and matches exacerbate the situation.



Last year, Nadal won titles in Monte Carlo, Barcelona, Rome and Roland Garros and reached the Hamburg final, playing a herculean total of 27 matches (comprising 64 sets) in 57 days. This year, to delay Masters Series events in Indian Wells and Miami so they wouldn't compete with the NCAA basketball tournament for television viewers, the ATP compressed an eight-week spring clay season into seven weeks.



"We only have three Masters Series on clay during all the season, and we have three Masters series in four weeks," Nadal said in Miami. "We can't have the calendar thinking about college basketball, no? So we are 100 percent disappointed by this decision of the ATP. The European players are very angry about these decisions."

[+] EnlargeJacques Demarthon/AFP/Getty Images

Rafael Nadal is looking to join Bjorn Borg as the only players to win four straight French Open crowns since 1925.
If Nadal had enjoyed success similar to that of 2007, he would be looking at five tournaments and 25-plus matches in a 50-day window. Even the resilient Spaniard wasn't able to rise above that potential obstacle. He won again at Monte Carlo, beating Federer in the straight-sets final, and a week later in Barcelona. But facing three tournaments in three weeks, something had to give -- and it was the skin on Nadal's right foot. A gruesome blister was the deciding factor in his loss to Ferrero, but it gave him a week off and the prospect of two weeks of mere practice in a stretch of three leading into Roland Garros.



"That they played Rome and Hamburg back to back, that's just ridiculous," Corretja said. "Rafa will play the calendar the way it is and prove again that he is the best.



"If he wins four in a row, that's a very difficult thing to do. What he's doing on clay is amazing. We may never see something like this again from the people who are alive now.

Corretja paused and laughed.



"Except, Rafa, maybe," he said. "He is young. Maybe Rafa can do it again."


Greg Garber is a senior writer for ESPN.com.

ZakMcCrack
05-29-2008, 06:58 AM
check out this article i found on espn.com. by the way, i think Djokovic`s stock on clay soars in recent weeks. he is clearly the 2nd best on clay based on current form. Fed wouldnt have a prayer against him.



You are so bloody darn incorrigible - ready to put your foot in it yet again? First he needs to prove that he doesn't peter out again against Fed, don't you think? ;)

leng jai
05-29-2008, 07:59 AM
We should be thankful that Clown Death doesn't think Fakervic is streets ahead of the Pig on clay already.

Clay Death
05-30-2008, 01:58 AM
You are so bloody darn incorrigible - ready to put your foot in it yet again? First he needs to prove that he doesn't peter out again against Fed, don't you think? ;)


you are going to call out these writers and other tennis insiders too. they too believe that Djokovic is the one to watch now.

check that article again for starters. if that doesnt work, check what Nadal is saying about Djokovic.

i am just calling it like i see it. no spin.

Clay Death
05-30-2008, 02:01 AM
We should be thankful that Clown Death doesn't think Fakervic is streets ahead of the Pig on clay already.

he is getting there. that is the conventional wisdom now old sport. he is a step closer to Nadal on clay than Fed. you can make book on it.

fitness is the only question mark for Djokovic and he may have answered some of those questions in hamburg where he went toe to toe with Nadal for 3 hours and 3 minutes.

dan_the_man1983
05-30-2008, 02:51 AM
1. Nadal


Head and shoulders above.

2. The rest.

Clay Death
05-30-2008, 03:07 AM
1. Nadal


Head and shoulders above.

2. The rest.


Nalby sure went down in a hurry. i thought he was going to make some noise on the clay circuit this year. little did i know that he is still addicted to too much good life.

Albop
03-23-2009, 10:38 PM
There's no really good clay courters in this generation.

Almagro,Robredo,Ferrer lol . Federer And Djokovic are top 2 and 3 on clay.

Call me a troll but i think that Nadal's clay legacy it's really overated.

-He's just beaten 4 top 15 players in his 4 RG titles:

Federer, who could lose to Nadal in ice.
Djokovic, Clay court clown
Ljubicic, :worship:
Hewitt.

All players who worse surface is clay.
Sure he is avery good clay courter but i don't know how can you call him the clay GOAT.

Look also at the Kuerten Runs, Those are More meritory than Nadal's ones.

its.like.that
03-24-2009, 12:01 AM
rofl @ Djokovic being a top 5 claycourter

:haha:

rocketassist
03-24-2009, 12:08 AM
This is a clown era for clay court tennis. The fact Federer is the only competition says it all.

Not denying his ability on the surface but Kuerten faced far bigger competition than Rafito ever will.

Federer and Fakervic, or Corretja, Ferrero, Norman and Bruguera?

I guarantee those four, well Ferrero pre 2004, would not be murdered by Nadal and all would have taken a set at least.

Guga in 2000 would take Nadal to five.

Ivαn
03-24-2009, 11:00 AM
lol

ToniTennis
03-24-2009, 12:03 PM
So it's a clown era for clay court tennis. Yet, according to some posters, the ATP seem to do what's in their hands to mimic clay courts in other surfaces.

OK

sigh...


If only haters made up their minds...

Action Jackson
03-24-2009, 12:22 PM
So it's a clown era for claycourt tennis. Yet, according to some posters, the ATP seem to do what's in their hands to mimic claycourts in other surfaces.

OK

sigh...


If only haters made up their minds...

Simple, Nadal is fucking great on clay and would be up near the top in any era.

Here is the problem, you got a guy who is a gun and knows how to play claycourt tennis, no this doesn't not just mean moonball for the sake of it, defends when he has to, drives the opponent in submission and beats them down mentally.

Problem with the above, when you have Federer as the main competitor on clay, then it's weak. Sure they wanted to slow down the grass, but it had a negative impact on clay (Nadal being the exception), what has happened is that you have hardcourt tennis being played on all surfaces, whereas before with the greater variance in speeds, there needed to be more adjustments from the players to have more success, but this is a very rarely mentioned fact, because the main problem with the authorities had was the biff, bash, bam all serve shows on fast surfaces in the 90s and clay is like the ugly kid, with braces, a flatnose, mullet and a weight problem.

GuiroNl
03-24-2009, 12:45 PM
what has happened is that you have hardcourt tennis being played on all surfaces

So true

Venle
03-24-2009, 03:05 PM
King of Clay

TheMightyFed
03-24-2009, 03:21 PM
Roddick is up there.
Some Italian guy, Starace ? Volandri ? ;)
I honestly think Roger is a good clay courter, good topspin, good defense. But Nadalito is way too strong on the dirt...
BTW when Nadal starts winning all 4 slams per year, do they plan to speed up Wimby and re-introduce carpet ? Morons...

Merton
03-24-2009, 03:24 PM
Almagro, Verdasco, Andreev, Wawrinka, Monaco. For different reasons, none of them has realized his potential on clay. Having said that, just looking at these names, and adding other players currently reaching the final stages of the clay tournaments, you get an idea about the state of the game on clay these days.

FerrersLinda
03-24-2009, 03:32 PM
Roddick is up there.

:speakles:

:haha:

Roddick's RG results?:cool:

miura
03-24-2009, 03:34 PM
Gulbis can play on clay, no doubt about it. If he can pull his act together during the next year or two, he can become a major threat for the future.

Andi-M
03-24-2009, 03:36 PM
Murray said his focus this season is the clay. I'll be extremely suprised if he dosent make semis or more in at least 1 clay AMS or RG.

I also think Del Potro could be slightly more dangerous on clay he might be able to beat higher ranked players like Roddick, Davydenko, Djokovic or Murray on clay if they are having bad days.

Action Jackson
03-24-2009, 03:37 PM
Murray, hahahaha

TheMightyFed
03-24-2009, 03:45 PM
:speakles:

:haha:

Roddick's RG results?:cool:

Irony

lurker
03-24-2009, 03:46 PM
Federer and Fakervic, or Corretja, Ferrero, Norman and Bruguera?

I guarantee those four, well Ferrero pre 2004, would not be murdered by Nadal and all would have taken a set at least.

Guga in 2000 would take Nadal to five.

Now Guga vs Rafa would have been a treat to watch!!! I agree about pre-2004 Ferrero. Even 2008 Ferrero beat a tired Rafa in straight sets at Rome. I think Rafa would have found a way to beat both of them though, but you wouldn't see these wipeout matches of supposedly great clay court players ( Rafa vs Almagro:eek:)

Clay Death
03-24-2009, 03:47 PM
Murray, hahahaha

Djokovic`s game translates well on clay. he has made at least 2 semis at Roland Garros. i am not sure how it will go for him this year but he may turn it around just enough to make some deep runs at some of the clay events. we will just have to see.

Murray is a more complete player this year and he is also more fit. the jury is still out on him as far as clay is concerned. we need to see some results.

Action Jackson
03-24-2009, 03:50 PM
Irony

:wavey: long time no see.

lurker
03-24-2009, 03:52 PM
Murray, hahahaha

I think Murray's game translates to clay about as well as Hewitt's game. Murray probably also suffers Hewitt's allergy to clay, yet he also has the same resolve to conquer it, which for Hewitt anyway, led to some surprisingly good results. Murray's advantage over Hewitt is he has more power and depth of shot, but his disadvantage is his center of gravity and balance on the clay could do him in.

Action Jackson
03-24-2009, 03:53 PM
Djokovic`s game translates well on clay. he has made at least 2 semis at Roland Garros. i am not sure how it will go for him this year but he may turn it around just enough to make some deep runs at some of the clay events. we will just have to see.

Murray is a more complete player this year and he is also more fit. the jury is still out on him as far as clay is concerned. we need to see some results.

Djokovic he is solid on all surfaces, maybe a bit less on the grass, but he plays hardcourt tennis on clay, like most of them. It's homogenous, Davydenko is better on the surface, but that is more because his movement is superior.

My original point stands.

Jaz
03-24-2009, 03:55 PM
Nadal
Gap
Federer
Gap
Everyone Else.

This dillusioned thinking that Djoker or Murray are good claycourters is insane, neither have really ever performed on Clay at the French Open.

Action Jackson
03-24-2009, 03:56 PM
I think Murray's game translates to clay about as well as Hewitt's game. Murray probably also suffers Hewitt's allergy to clay, yet he also has the same resolve to conquer it, which for Hewitt anyway, led to some surprisingly good results. Murray's advantage over Hewitt is he has more power and depth of shot, but his disadvantage is his center of gravity and balance on the clay could do him in.

Hewitt doesn't lose to clowns on clay, that's the difference, apart from Martin Rodriguez when he was young. Hewitt pretty loses to good players on the surface. Hewitt doesn't like the shoulder high ball, won't go down the line on the backhand and while he is fast, he doesn't have the claycourt movement.

Clay Death
03-24-2009, 04:01 PM
Nadal
Gap
Federer
Gap
Everyone Else.

This dillusioned thinking that Djoker or Murray are good claycourters is insane, neither have really ever performed on Clay at the French Open.

Djokovic can be surprisingly good on clay. i dont know about this year. he is a bit out of form and out of confidence at the moment.

miura
03-24-2009, 04:03 PM
Djokovic can be surprisingly good on clay. i dont know about this year. he is a bit out of form and out of confidence at the moment.
His problem on clay is that he gives in when the going gets though.

Jaz
03-24-2009, 04:04 PM
Djokovic can be surprisingly good on clay. i dont know about this year. he is a bit out of form and out of confidence at the moment.

Djoker is supposedly good on hard and grass. That still doesn't make him rank ahead of many other players including Murray AND Federer.

Potential doesn't mean "Best Clay Courter". If he fulfilled his potential and actually did something worth of note then sure, go ahead and rank him in as the "best clay courter" But until that time, it makes no sense to rank him above players that actually DO perform.

Action Jackson
03-24-2009, 04:05 PM
Really it's Nadal and the rest can just write their own tickets.

Andi-M
03-24-2009, 04:08 PM
Murray, hahahaha

Yup Murray has bad results on clay, but this time last year he was a different player to the one he is now his game, and fitness have come on leaps and bounds.

So this is where I judge him from now, if he has a similar clay season to last year then fair enough. laugh away.

Clay Death
03-24-2009, 04:19 PM
Djoker is supposedly good on hard and grass. That still doesn't make him rank ahead of many other players including Murray AND Federer.

Potential doesn't mean "Best Clay Courter". If he fulfilled his potential and actually did something worth of note then sure, go ahead and rank him in as the "best clay courter" But until that time, it makes no sense to rank him above players that actually DO perform.

this was a very old thread. i am not really ready to rank anybody right now. for now, its the Clay Monster and Fed and then there are the rest.

i wish that Murray, NalFATian, and Djokovic would get in the game on clay and show us something.

MalwareDie
03-24-2009, 04:44 PM
Nalbandian can beat Federer on clay. He would have defeated Federer in RG 2006 but he was injured.

NadalSharapova
03-24-2009, 04:46 PM
Nadal and only Nadal, there is no debate.

Thread would be better if you changed clay to grass or hardcourt, then there would at least be a debate.

Clay Death
03-24-2009, 04:50 PM
His problem on clay is that he gives in when the going gets though.


testicular fortitude is something he will need to acquire going forward.

Lance Armstrong does it with just 1 nut.

EnriqueIG8
03-24-2009, 04:50 PM
As long as Nadal is healthy nobody will beat him on the important clay tournaments for the next 3 to 4 years.
As much as I dislike the idea..it's just reality.

heya
03-24-2009, 05:00 PM
Lance has a broken collar bone too.
You don't see him crying like
a delusional spoiled brat without enough candy.

Matt01
03-24-2009, 08:00 PM
testicular fortitude is something he will need to acquire going forward.

Lance Armstrong does it with just 1 nut.


:spit:

LinkMage
03-25-2009, 12:43 AM
Only Nadull and nobody else. No wonder he's winning every tournament on clay with this pathetic opposition. When Fedmug is the biggest threat on the surface you know it's one of the worst eras on the surface.

ORGASMATRON
03-25-2009, 12:49 AM
Federer is better then Nadal on clay, he was just unlucky at the start.

finishingmove
03-25-2009, 01:06 AM
Federer is better then Nadal on clay, he was just unlucky at the start.

start of what? :lol:

becoming nadal's bitch?

Corey Feldman
03-25-2009, 01:11 AM
it would make the clay season more interesting if they handicap Nadal by 3 games in every set

ORGASMATRON
03-25-2009, 01:30 AM
start of what? :lol:

becoming nadal's bitch?

:lol:

Clay Death
03-25-2009, 02:17 AM
Federer is better then Nadal on clay, he was just unlucky at the start.

crack has indeed come down in price significantly, thanks to the global recession.

Action Jackson
03-25-2009, 02:51 AM
it would make the clay season more interesting if they handicap Nadal by 3 games in every set

If he played right handed he'd still win 2 and 3.

luie
03-25-2009, 02:57 AM
start of what? :lol:

becoming nadal's bitch?
Novak is nadal's b*t*h,oh sorry forgive me, I meant to say Novak is everybody's B*t*h.:devil:

ORGASMATRON
03-25-2009, 03:05 AM
crack has indeed come down in price significantly, thanks to the global recession.

Hehehehe

finishingmove
03-25-2009, 03:09 AM
Novak is nadal's b*t*h,oh sorry forgive me, I meant to say Novak is everybody's B*t*h.:devil:

novak is rafa's bitch at the moment, but that is not undoable.

he's also tsonga's and roddick's(!) bitch.

luie
03-25-2009, 03:11 AM
novak is rafa's bitch at the moment, but that is not undoable.

he's also tsonga's and roddick's(!) bitch.
You could extend the list to fed & safin.:)

Clay Death
03-25-2009, 03:20 AM
Hehehehe


:haha::haha::haha::haha:

Clay Death
03-25-2009, 03:22 AM
novak is rafa's bitch at the moment, but that is not undoable.

he's also tsonga's and roddick's(!) bitch.

there are just 2 kinds of players on this planet now:

1. those who are Clay Monster`s bitches

2. and those who are going to be his bitches

next.

safinafan
03-25-2009, 03:44 AM
Roger is Murray's bitch :haha:

Clay Death
03-25-2009, 02:13 PM
there are some key questions for the clay season coming up. lets get back on topic for a moment.

Is Fed still the 2nd best on clay? can he make the finals at Roland Garros? we know he will be in Rome and may get to find out more about his clay court form there.

Can Djokovic do well in Rome or are we writing him off for the moment?

we know for a fact that the Clay Monster cannot be stopped on clay but what about Fed? is there anybody that can stop Fed on clay other than the Clay Monster? how about NalFATian?

sainteagle
03-25-2009, 02:23 PM
there are some key questions for the clay season coming up. lets get back on topic for a moment.

Is Fed still the 2nd best on clay? can he make the finals at Roland Garros? we know he will be in Rome and may get to find out more about his clay court form there.

Can Djokovic do well in Rome or are we writing him off for the moment?

we know for a fact that the Clay Monster cannot be stopped on clay but what about Fed? is there anybody that can stop Fed on clay other than the Clay Monster? how about NalFATian?There are a lot of persons who will defeat FED on clay this year.
we will see.

Action Jackson
03-25-2009, 02:33 PM
There is no fucking clay season.

If Nadal is fit, he wins, if he is 70 percent fit he wins. He might drop one match, but it won't be at RG.

This thread has no use, the others are playing to get sodomised.

Clay Death
03-25-2009, 02:38 PM
There is no fucking clay season.

If Nadal is fit, he wins, if he is 70 percent fit he wins. He might drop one match, but it won't be at RG.

This thread has no use, the others are playing to get sodomised.


too funny action jackson. i am laughing my ass off. that about sums it up. even if he is 65%, he will find a way to win.

Roland Garros is indeed off limits. nobody touches him there.

but my question was as follows:

is there anybody who can stop Fed on clay other than Nadal? Can Djokovic or NalFATian do it?

shotgun
03-25-2009, 02:55 PM
is there anybody who can stop Fed on clay other than Nadal?

Volandri.

Clay Death
03-25-2009, 03:00 PM
Volandri.

that was an exception. Volandri played out of his mind and Fed served at around 45%. i think Fed also had just finished ditching his coach as well.

Fumus
03-25-2009, 03:03 PM
There is no fucking clay season.

If Nadal is fit, he wins, if he is 70 percent fit he wins. He might drop one match, but it won't be at RG.

This thread has no use, the others are playing to get sodomised.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. I think Del Potro, Nalbandian, Monfils, Ferrer, Andreev, Canas, Alemgro have the games to out Nadal on clay. PHM gave Nadal a good run for his money too one year at RG. The margin between victory and defeat slight, Nadal needs to be 100 percent fit to compete the way he does for the game he plays. This is why he is never a factor late in the in the season.

*EDIT*

Do I think he's going to lose more than 1 maybe 2 matches this season? No. Do I think he's going to win RG, again? Yes. Is it in the bag? Never.

Clay Death
03-25-2009, 03:09 PM
I wouldn't be so sure of that. I think Del Potro, Nalbandian, Monfils, Ferrer, Andreev, Canas, Alemgro have the games to out Nadal on clay. PHM gave Nadal a good run for his money too one year at RG. The margin between victory and defeat slight, Nadal needs to be 100 percent fit to compete the way he does for the game he plays. This is why he is never a factor late in the in the season.

*EDIT*

Do I think he's going to lose more than 1 maybe 2 matches this season? No. Do I think he's going to win RG, again? Yes. Is it in the bag? Never.


Clay Monster the ruthless architect of death has leapfrogged them all. he can gun them down at 65%-70% capacity now. also throw in the fear factor.

is there anybody on the planet who thinks--even for a second--that they have a chance against him on clay. especially in a best of 5 sets foremat.

he is beating the hell out of them on his least favorite surfaces so you can imagine what he would do to them clay now that he has improved his game.

his last roland garros campaign should have given us all a damn good indication.

Action Jackson
03-25-2009, 03:09 PM
fumus, I know you don't mind a bit of controversy, not that this is a bad thing.
- Cañas is gone on clay these days.
- Almagro gets out the lube.
- Andreev doesn't play the big points well enough.
- Ferrer can do it for a set.
- Mathieu played above his level and couldn't get it done and Nadal wasn't up to scratch.
- Monfils, he will be covering 60kms in a match.
- Nalbandian, won't get to play him.
- Del Potro, ballbasher who is better on hardcourt and he can't get close there.

Clay Death
03-25-2009, 03:11 PM
fumus, I know you don't mind a bit of controversy, not that this is a bad thing.
- Caρas is gone on clay these days.
- Almagro gets out the lube.
- Andreev doesn't play the big points well enough.
- Ferrer can do it for a set.
- Mathieu played above his level and couldn't get it done and Nadal wasn't up to scratch.
- Monfils, he will be covering 60kms in a match.
- Nalbandian, won't get to play him.
- Del Potro, ballbasher who is better on hardcourt and he can't get close there.


affirmative. that leaves Fed, Murray, and Djokovic. they can play him tough for about a set at best. best of 5 sets foremats are the real killers. nobody has a chance there.

Action Jackson
03-25-2009, 03:17 PM
Murray is a joke on clay, the cowardly lion has more heart than Djokovic and Fed is scarred.

Therefore my original theory stands, there is no one out there and the person that gets the win against Nadal, it will come from an unexpected area.

MalwareDie
03-25-2009, 03:23 PM
- Nalbandian, won't get to play him.

Is that guaranteed? He might decide to have the motivation to make it to the fourth round.

Action Jackson
03-25-2009, 03:26 PM
Is that guaranteed? He might decide to have the motivation to make it to the fourth round.

He will lose enough silly matches not to play him, they haven't met on clay yet.

Fumus
03-25-2009, 03:40 PM
Clay Monster the ruthless architect of death has leapfrogged them all. he can gun them down at 65%-70% capacity now. also throw in the fear factor.

is there anybody on the planet who thinks--even for a second--that they have a chance against him on clay. especially in a best of 5 sets foremat.

he is beating the hell out of them on his least favorite surfaces so you can imagine what he would do to them clay now that he has improved his game.

his last roland garros campaign should have given us all a damn good indication.

fumus, I know you don't mind a bit of controversy, not that this is a bad thing.
- Cañas is gone on clay these days.
- Almagro gets out the lube.
- Andreev doesn't play the big points well enough.
- Ferrer can do it for a set.
- Mathieu played above his level and couldn't get it done and Nadal wasn't up to scratch.
- Monfils, he will be covering 60kms in a match.
- Nalbandian, won't get to play him.
- Del Potro, ballbasher who is better on hardcourt and he can't get close there.

I didn't say these players were better than Nadal. I didn't say that they should beat him. I said they could beat him. Yes for all the reasons you've mentioned they should all lose to Nadal but, they could beat him. It's the operative word.

Could.

Might.

Maybe.

..it can happen. Giants fall, players lose to players they shouldn't lose to, it's called an upset. It happens in sports all the time. I'm sure you're familiar with the term.

65%-75%? What is that garbage? So if Nadal keeps 75% of the length he normally keeps, hits the balls %25 slower, commits 25% more unforced errors, hits with 25%-35% less spin, moves 25-35% percent slower, serves only 75% as well...c'mon. You're smokin' crack. He needs to be at the top or close to that. I'm talking 92-95% most of the time and 98-100% when he needs to.

If you drop as low you're talking about in a match anyone one of these guys I mentioned there will be beat him, convincingly, like 2,2,2. You'll see what I mean when Nadal starts to age and he doesn't move as well. The thing about Nadal that makes him great is that he shows up consistently at a high level. That doesn't mean making amazing shots all the time, although he hits his fare share, it means playing consistently.

That takes a lot of mental strength, case and point why many talented players never reach their potential. The ability to play at a high level consistently.

NadalSharapova
03-25-2009, 04:49 PM
I didn't say these players were better than Nadal. I didn't say that they should beat him. I said they could beat him. Yes for all the reasons you've mentioned they should all lose to Nadal but, they could beat him. It's the operative word.

Could.

Might.

Maybe.

..it can happen. Giants fall, players lose to players they shouldn't lose to, it's called an upset. It happens in sports all the time. I'm sure you're familiar with the term.

65%-75%? What is that garbage? So if Nadal keeps 75% of the length he normally keeps, hits the balls %25 slower, commits 25% more unforced errors, hits with 25%-35% less spin, moves 25-35% percent slower, serves only 75% as well...c'mon. You're smokin' crack. He needs to be at the top or close to that. I'm talking 92-95% most of the time and 98-100% when he needs to.

If you drop as low you're talking about in a match anyone one of these guys I mentioned there will be beat him, convincingly, like 2,2,2. You'll see what I mean when Nadal starts to age and he doesn't move as well. The thing about Nadal that makes him great is that he shows up consistently at a high level. That doesn't mean making amazing shots all the time, although he hits his fare share, it means playing consistently.

That takes a lot of mental strength, case and point why many talented players never reach their potential. The ability to play at a high level consistently.

An 18 year old Nadal was not even half the player he is today, he still won the french open with relative ease on his very first attempt.

Fumus
03-25-2009, 05:21 PM
An 18 year old Nadal was not even half the player he is today, he still won the french open with relative ease on his very first attempt.

What!? You didn't even read what I wrote did you? It's obvious by your response that you didn't. It's ok no one does. They have their opinions on things and they just post what they feel. Irregardless isn't a word but that's how I feel my posts are taken sometimes. Is too many words a crime? Seriously, like if my posts goes over that 3-5 sentences range; does the average poster just not read them? It's certainly interesting to me. These are the same people that you speak with everyday and you can tell they aren't listening to you, they are just waiting for their turn to speak. I'm sure you saw my post and you were like "bla bla bla, Nadal...bla bla". And you thought, na, he's wrong...I'm gonna quote him but make it painfully obvious I didn't read what he wrote by posting something that has absolutely nothing to do with what he just wrote. I don't want to argue any of his points because that would take some effort with all that thinking, reading, comprehending, and then creating a rebuttal. Psh, the hell with that!! I'll just post some pointless fact and assert that as my reason to why I respectfully disagree.

Well, mission accomplished.

NadalSharapova
03-25-2009, 05:30 PM
What!? You didn't even read what I wrote did you? It's obvious by your response that you didn't. It's ok no one does. They have their opinions on things and they just post what they feel. Irregardless isn't a word but that's how I feel my posts are taken sometimes. Is too many words a crime? Seriously, like if my posts goes over that 3-5 sentences range; does the average poster just not read them? It's certainly interesting to me. These are the same people that you speak with everyday and you can tell they aren't listening to you, they are just waiting for their turn to speak. I'm sure you saw my post and you were like "bla bla bla, Nadal...bla bla". And you thought, na, he's wrong...I'm gonna quote him but make it painfully obvious I didn't read what he wrote by posting something that has absolutely nothing to do with what he just wrote. I don't want to argue any of his points because that would take some effort with all that thinking, reading, comprehending, and then creating a rebuttal. Psh, the hell with that!! I'll just post some pointless fact and assert that as my reason to why I respectfully disagree.

Well, mission accomplished.

I did read what you said. Still IMO Nadal does not need to be at his best to win the French Open becuase there is a HUGE gap between him and the field on clay, however for the other majors he needs to be.

NadalSharapova
03-25-2009, 05:33 PM
I didn't say these players were better than Nadal. I didn't say that they should beat him. I said they could beat him. Yes for all the reasons you've mentioned they should all lose to Nadal but, they could beat him. It's the operative word.

Could.

Might.

Maybe.



Well I could beat Nadal if he broke his leg.

Byrd
03-25-2009, 05:39 PM
So who would people rate as the top 20 clay courters at the moment, reasons would be welcome.

Fumus
03-25-2009, 06:02 PM
I did read what you said. Still IMO Nadal does not need to be at his best to win the French Open becuase there is a HUGE gap between him and the field on clay, however for the other majors he needs to be.

Ok, that makes more sense. Yes, there's a huge gap. He's really good. I know that. He's a much better player than anyone of those guys I listed as possibilities to beat him. In the end though, being slightly off on the day and facing one of those guys playing up to their potential I think he could lose. Nothing is a lock. I'm sure if you asked Nadal about that, he would tell you he doesn't take any match for granted. Rightly so, that's what I'm talking about. He's very strong mentally and shows up and competes match in and match out. That's why he's number 1. All I am saying is that if he was only playing at 75%, he would surely lose at some stage along the way.

That is correct, if Nadal broke his leg you would win by retirement. The gap between victory and defeat however between Nadal and the other really good clay court players isn't that large. In fact it's quite small sometimes. Yes, they can beat Nadal without him breaking his leg, he can play well and still lose. I don't understand why this is soo difficult to understand. No one is unbeatable by default, that's why we watch, right???

Action Jackson
03-25-2009, 06:04 PM
So who would people rate as the top 20 clay courters at the moment, reasons would be welcome.

2-20, can make up any list you want. Fact that Federer is #2 says everything really and not in a good way.

Fumus
03-25-2009, 06:07 PM
2-20, can make up any list you want. Fact that Federer is #2 says everything really and not in a good way.

He's getting old, that's what it says. Watch Fed in 04' and 05' tell me that's the same guy we see today.

habibko
03-25-2009, 06:08 PM
2-20, can make up any list you want. Fact that Federer is #2 says everything really and not in a good way.

I see what you mean, but Federer is really a good clay courter, he isn't a specialist but he plays much better and more effectively than many so called clay specialists, just watch his movement on clay.

McAlistar
03-25-2009, 06:11 PM
Ferrer i think will do well this year, he has been playing well recently and hammered Djokovic on clay a few weeks ago. Murray and him will challenge, with Federer,Del Potro,Almugro and maybe Tsonga but nobody will stop Rafa.

Action Jackson
03-25-2009, 06:13 PM
He's getting old, that's what it says. Watch Fed in 04' and 05' tell me that's the same guy we see today.

Are you picking up the same girls you were when you were 16 to the ones you are when you are 25.

My point in response to Byrd's question was 2-20 can be ranked in whatever order, because there is only player that plays claycourt tennis.

habib, for an attack minded player he is good on the clay, that's where it ends.

NadalSharapova
03-25-2009, 06:15 PM
Ok, that makes more sense. Yes, there's a huge gap. He's really good. I know that. He's a much better player than anyone of those guys I listed as possibilities to beat him. In the end though, being slightly off on the day and facing one of those guys playing up to their potential I think he could lose. Nothing is a lock. I'm sure if you asked Nadal about that, he would tell you he doesn't take any match for granted. Rightly so, that's what I'm talking about. He's very strong mentally and shows up and competes match in and match out. That's why he's number 1. All I am saying is that if he was only playing at 75%, he would surely lose at some stage along the way.

That is correct, if Nadal broke his leg you would win by retirement. The gap between victory and defeat however between Nadal and the other really good clay court players isn't that large. In fact it's quite small sometimes. Yes, they can beat Nadal without him breaking his leg, he can play well and still lose. I don't understand why this is soo difficult to understand. No one is unbeatable by default, that's why we watch, right???

Thing is, to beat Nadal they need to win 3 sets. Now Nadals worst ever result at the french is 3 sets to 1 victory, and that was when he was still improving as a player. Last year he was coming into his peak and didn't drop a set in the whole tournament without even breaking sweat. This year he is even better, so its unthinkable how someone could just take 3 sets off him in one match.

Byrd
03-25-2009, 06:15 PM
2-20, can make up any list you want. Fact that Federer is #2 says everything really and not in a good way.

Yea I agree mate, but it's interesting to see where people place other players within the hierarchy and for what reasons, as I'm sure I'm not the only one getting bored of every post mentioning Nadull.

habibko
03-25-2009, 06:16 PM
habib, for an attack minded player he is good on the clay, that's where it ends.

fair enough.

Action Jackson
03-25-2009, 06:21 PM
Yea I agree mate, but it's interesting to see where people place other players within the hierarchy and for what reasons, as I'm sure I'm not the only one getting bored of every post mentioning Nadull.

I understand that, but the fact is I am far from a Nadal fan, but he is so far ahead of his peers on clay it isn't funny.

The guys that could be good on clay look at the ones Merton posted. Andreev, he should be better than he is on the surface.
Almagro has the game, but no balls.
Monaco lacks a weapon, but fights hard.
Acasuso is just Acasilly.
Boredo very good competitor, but doesn't beat the big players above him, only PMK
Davydenko. PMK excellent mover, but lacks the belief.
Verdasco is probably better on hardcourts these days than the clay.

Fumus
03-25-2009, 06:30 PM
Are you picking up the same girls you were when you were 16 to the ones you are when you are 25.


No but at some point your game has peaked. I'm just lucky, mine hasn't yet. :devil:

Thing is, to beat Nadal they need to win 3 sets. Now Nadals worst ever result at the french is 3 sets to 1 victory, and that was when he was still improving as a player. Last year he was coming into his peak and didn't drop a set in the whole tournament without even breaking sweat. This year he is even better, so its unthinkable how someone could just take 3 sets off him in one match.

Unthinkable? Well, I'm thinking it. Now you've gotten to the heart of our philosophical difference.

Clay Death
03-25-2009, 06:38 PM
No but at some point your game has peaked. I'm just lucky, mine hasn't yet. :devil:



Unthinkable? Well, I'm thinking it. Now you've gotten to the heart of our philosophical difference.

Clay Beast is not even close to the height of his powers. watch and learn.

see and believe.

and then hold a weeping procession/parade. made up of professional weepers to get you in the mood.

Action Jackson
03-25-2009, 06:42 PM
No but at some point your game has peaked. I'm just lucky, mine hasn't yet. :devil:

You waiting for the nursing homes then man.

MalwareDie
03-25-2009, 06:42 PM
If Mugboar loses to Nalbandian prior to RG and then draws him at RG, he will wet his pants and lose.

NadalSharapova
03-25-2009, 06:49 PM
No but at some point your game has peaked. I'm just lucky, mine hasn't yet. :devil:

Unthinkable? Well, I'm thinking it. Now you've gotten to the heart of our philosophical difference.

Ok, you are thinking but are you believing?

I'm thinking maybe West Ham will win the premiership next year. But do I believe it? Hell no.

Fumus
03-25-2009, 07:08 PM
Clay Beast is not even close to the height of his powers. watch and learn.

see and believe.

and then hold a weeping procession/parade. made up of professional weepers to get you in the mood.

You're hilarious. I wasn't talking about him I was talking about me, in reference to Federer's rapidly declining game. Yes, Nadal's game is on upswing. I will agree with you on. I wouldn't say he's not even close to the height of his powers but he's certainly had an excellent year.

You waiting for the nursing homes then man.

Planning to retire at my peak actually, it's just a hard thing to time.

Action Jackson
03-25-2009, 07:10 PM
You're hilarious. I wasn't talking about him I was talking about me, in reference to Federer's rapidly declining game. Yes, Nadal's game is on upswing. I will agree with you on. I wouldn't say he's not even close to the height of his powers but he's certainly had an excellent year.



Planning to retire at my peak actually, it's just a hard thing to time.

Hahaha, funny stuff, lucky I am on night shifts, good luck with retiring on top.

Fumus
03-25-2009, 07:35 PM
Hahaha, funny stuff, lucky I am on night shifts, good luck with retiring on top.

Thank you, sir! With any luck, I'll still marry Sasha Cohen. As we all know about her flexibility. :devil:

jcempire
03-25-2009, 07:39 PM
so who, in your best estimation, will prove to be the 5 best clay courters on the planet in 2008? its a bit of a guessing game if you will.

here is the way i see it unfolding this year:

1. Clay Monster (Nadal)
2. Djokovic
3. Davydenko
4. Nalby
5. Fed

Monaco and Almagro are out to make a name on clay as well. we will see their progress. Monaco pocketed 2 clay titles last year. Almagro has at least one with a huge win overNalby. Speaking of Nalby, he too has a clay titile to his name this year already.

thoughts? how do you see it unfolding?

you can't put Fed on No 5 instead of No 2. He haven't miss the Final since 05

And Nalby done nothing so far. He not support be in your list

ORGASMATRON
03-25-2009, 08:00 PM
Originally Posted by Clay Death View Post
so who, in your best estimation, will prove to be the 5 best clay courters on the planet in 2008? its a bit of a guessing game if you will.

here is the way i see it unfolding this year:

1. Clay Monster (Nadal)
2. Djokovic
3. Davydenko
4. Nalby
5. Fed

Monaco and Almagro are out to make a name on clay as well. we will see their progress. Monaco pocketed 2 clay titles last year. Almagro has at least one with a huge win overNalby. Speaking of Nalby, he too has a clay titile to his name this year already.

thoughts? how do you see it unfolding?

Wrong much were we? How could you count out Fed after what he has done on clay? He is better then all those clay courters you mentioned by quite a margin. Wanna underestimate him again this year? Not your best work CD...

ImmzB
03-25-2009, 08:00 PM
1.Nadal
2.Federer
3.Djokovic
4.Nalbandian
5.Davydenko

MalwareDie
03-25-2009, 08:05 PM
Nalbandian is underestimated. If he had not been injured in 2006, he would have taken out Federer.

heya
03-25-2009, 10:39 PM
Djoko, Nalbandian, Murray, Davydenko, Federer?
Yes, they're good....for a beatdown.
Federer couldn't even take advantage of 2 match points when Nadal barely served 45% 1st serves in.

Roddick has no career and still could win 2 tiebreaks. Costa, Coria and Gaudio know what
losses to an American feel like. Like George Bush molesting a Latino choirboy.

Andreev and Almagro can hang around challengers, because only midgets and fat pigs lose to them. They don't have Federer's chimp arm and
muscles.

Federerhingis
03-26-2009, 12:36 AM
Nalbandian is underestimated. If he had not been injured in 2006, he would have taken out Federer.

Nalbandian is an interesting case, he can play wonderfully on any surface and clay is a surface where he seems very well adapted since he grew up playing on the red stuff as a Junior. Nevertheless, he claims he learned to play on hard courts, hence why his game is so much more better suited for the faster surfaces. The thing is that clay is the surface that requires you to be very fit and run a lot, and denies David full use of his best assets, his return of serve and taking the ball on the rise. Therefore Roland Garros would probably be the last of the slams David would win, especially in Nadals era, they all have to settle for second place.

If David is ever to win a slam it would be the US Open or the Australian Open, if he ever decides to really get fit and puts his mental gear on.

Clay Death
03-26-2009, 02:58 AM
you can't put Fed on No 5 instead of No 2. He haven't miss the Final since 05

And Nalby done nothing so far. He not support be in your list


this was an old thread. clearly the others have disappointed. Fed is a clear #2.

others are mugs of the highest order.

sainteagle
03-26-2009, 03:10 AM
this was an old thread. clearly the others have disappointed. Fed is a clear #2.

others are mugs of the highest order.who is mug? player? or you?

ORGASMATRON
03-26-2009, 03:20 AM
this was an old thread. clearly the others have disappointed. Fed is a clear #2.

others are mugs of the highest order.

That-a-boy :)

Clay Death
03-26-2009, 03:25 AM
who is mug? player? or you?


i was talking about the players.

i guess based on results, we can say the top 3 are as follows:

1. Clay Monster
2. Fed
3. Djokovic--he did win the Rome Masters and made the semis at Roland Garros.

sainteagle
03-26-2009, 03:44 AM
i was talking about the players.

i guess based on results, we can say the top 3 are as follows:

1. Clay Monster
2. Fed
3. Djokovic--he did win the Rome Masters and made the semis at Roland Garros.maybe you are right.but murry became more incredible during these two years.

Clay Death
03-26-2009, 03:46 AM
maybe you are right.but murry became more incredible during these two years.


Murray could do well on clay this year. we will just have to wait and see.

FedFan_2007
03-26-2009, 03:47 AM
The clay levels:

1. Clay Monster
2.
3.
4. Federer
5. Djokovic
6. Del Potro
7. Ferrer
8. Murray

finishingmove
03-26-2009, 03:53 AM
del what?

:lol:

and murray making the list?

sainteagle
03-26-2009, 03:53 AM
The clay levels:

1. Clay Monster
2.
3.
4. Federer
5. Djokovic
6. Del Potro
7. Ferrer
8. Murrayappropriate comments

FedFan_2007
03-26-2009, 03:56 AM
Nadal at 25% can beat Federer's A+ clay game.

sainteagle
03-26-2009, 03:58 AM
Nadal at 25% can beat Federer's A+ clay game.turgidly

ORGASMATRON
03-26-2009, 04:16 AM
The clay levels:

1. Clay Monster
2.
3.
4. Federer
5. Djokovic
6. Del Potro
7. Ferrer
8. Murray

The Gloryseeker strikes again, nice going fanboy :yeah:

Clay Death
03-26-2009, 01:23 PM
Nadal at 25% can beat Federer's A+ clay game.


lets not get carried away now old sport.

Clay Death
03-26-2009, 01:25 PM
del what?

:lol:

and murray making the list?

Murray is playing in Monte Carlo if i am not mistaken. we will get an early glimpse of how his improved game will fare on clay.

i expect him to do better in Rome however. the surface plays a little faster.

Albop
04-05-2009, 11:15 PM
If murray starts reaching SF in the clay masters then we know that this is the worse era for clay.

rocketassist
04-05-2009, 11:23 PM
If murray starts reaching SF in the clay masters then we know that this is the worse era for clay.

Even as a fan, you're probably right. Then again he was brought up on this surface and therefore has no excuses.

rocketassist
04-05-2009, 11:25 PM
Del Potro simply isn't made for clay and the fact he can ballbash and be in the mix on it shows the weakness of the clay game currently.

Johnny Groove
04-05-2009, 11:27 PM
I'm really hoping that Monaco and Almagro can make some moves on clay this year. Nalbandian too.

CyBorg
04-06-2009, 12:58 AM
1. Rafael Nadal
2. uhhhhh
3. uhhhhh
4. ehhhhh

Wow. I give up.

superslam77
04-06-2009, 01:20 AM
del potro a flat hitter so why everyone says he is good on clay?

Clay Death
04-06-2009, 01:31 AM
I'm really hoping that Monaco and Almagro can make some moves on clay this year. Nalbandian too.


lets not forget D-Pot (del potro). he has the consistency and he has the easy power thanks to leverage. he has also improved other areas of his game such as the transition game. he is not afraid to go forward.

i think if he can stay healthy, he could make some nice runs at smaller clay events.

remember what he did to Davydenko on clay in davis cup last year.

Guy Haines
04-06-2009, 07:15 AM
On a couple other clay threads the last few days me and a few other posters are mentioning Del Potro.

He started his winning streak on clay last year. He doesn't hit as flatly on clay, and in fact clay may be where developed a little more spin and control for his hard court game.

His Davis Cup demolition of Davydenko was the second best clay playing I saw last year. Depending on draw I think he has a chance at making the finals of Monte Carlo, or at least one of the Masters.

Also, his game might suit Roland Garros better than any of the players who've played Rafa tough at Masters but been whipped at RG.

On a different thread, Har-Tru astutely mentions that tall players can be worn down on clay. That's Del Potro's dilemma at the French, exacerbated by the fact he can get hangdog and pouty. But I expect him to build on his Miami result, rather than lose momentum. And if he's going to turn the corner to beat Murray or Djokovic, it's more likely on clay. Wawrinka is going to do well as well.

Another player to look out for, but who might not seem the type to do well is Marin Cilic.

Cilic should/could make some quarters at least. He first made waves at clay tourneys. And remember Ljubicic might not have seemed like a clay player but went far at Roland Garros.

Murray is the biggest question mark. Clay is his weakest surface but in Hamburg last year he showed some promise. That, his variety, his speed, past training, and new coach mean he's sure to do better this year -- but how much? He could be 2nd best to 4th or 5th. To do so, he needs to stop pushing so much on clay. Davydenko is another ?, but I'm not expecting much from him coming back from long layoff.

Almagro and Robredo just don't have it to test Nadal. They can hope for some quarters and semis in Europe though. Ferrer too.

Federer may have been #2 in past years, but it's foolish to think he will be in 09. He's not even playing some tournaments.

And at Roland Garros, unless he concentrates on fitness during his weeks off, his love handles are going to do him in.

Action Jackson
04-06-2009, 07:32 AM
Del Potro simply isn't made for clay and the fact he can ballbash and be in the mix on it shows the weakness of the clay game currently.

He is competent on clay, that's it.

chavkev
04-06-2009, 08:06 AM
Looking forward to seeing how Tsonga and Monfils (injury permitting) do on clay. Gael looked good at RG and Tsonga was starting to improve also. Maybe the day of the clay courter like Muster is over. Even Albert Montanes is improving on hard courts for heavens sake :eek:

Chardy may show some improvement also and I think Almagro will be a big disappointment.

Action Jackson
04-06-2009, 08:12 AM
Looking forward to seeing how Tsonga and Monfils (injury permitting) do on clay. Gael looked good at RG and Tsonga was starting to improve also. Maybe the day of the clay courter like Muster is over. Even Albert Montanes is improving on hard courts for heavens sake :eek:

Chardy may show some improvement also and I think Almagro will be a big disappointment.

Quality stuff chav, Muster made SFs and QFs at the Aus and US Open, won Miami and also Essen on carpet.

Need a better example of a clay dog than Muster.

Albop
04-15-2009, 12:09 AM
Last year RG SF humiliated in his home. :lol:

ORGASMATRON
04-15-2009, 12:14 AM
:zzz:

vamosinator
04-15-2009, 01:51 AM
I can't believe some people rated Djokovic ahead of Federer on clay, thats crazy, Djokovic isn't even on the same level as Federer on clay, he'd struggle to take a set.

rocketassist
04-15-2009, 01:52 AM
The best clay courters on the planet, well apart from one, they are all in their retirement homes.

Clay Death
04-15-2009, 02:11 AM
I can't believe some people rated Djokovic ahead of Federer on clay, thats crazy, Djokovic isn't even on the same level as Federer on clay, he'd struggle to take a set.

well the clay season is here and in full bloom. we will get some of the answers we seek.

here is the world order for clay:

1. Clay Warrior (Nadal)
2. Fed
3. Djokovic
4. D-Pot
5. Murray
6. NalFATian

***last 4 (3-6) have a lot to prove.

Clay Death
04-15-2009, 02:14 AM
Quality stuff chav, Muster made SFs and QFs at the Aus and US Open, won Miami and also Essen on carpet.

Need a better example of a clay dog than Muster.

so true. Muster, while forced to reinvent himself on clay, was skilled enough and determined enough to do well on other surfaces.

Action Jackson
04-15-2009, 02:15 AM
The best clay courters on the planet, well apart from one, they are all in their retirement homes.

Nadal and then the rest of them thinking clay is what you use to make pots.

shotgun
04-15-2009, 02:21 AM
Amazing the lack of depth in claycourt tennis these days. Apart from Nadal, we don't have any great claycourters. The ones who have been the most successful after him on the surface recently are nothing but all-surface players (e.g. Federer, Djokovic, Davydenko, Gonzalez, Nalbandian, Wawrinka, etc.) who arguably wouldn't do as well on the red stuff if the clay hadn't been sped up that much in the past decade.

The best claycourters after Nadal in this era? Ferrer, Robredo, Almagro, Volandri, etc. Enough said.

The last great claycourter before Nadal? Coria in 2005. Before that we had Gaudio in 2004, Ferrero in 2003, Costa in 2002, Kuerten up until 2001. Just a shame that we had so many of them in the first half of the decade, and only one of them in the second half.

FairWeatherFan
04-15-2009, 02:23 AM
so true. Muster, while forced to reinvent himself on clay, was skilled enough and determined enough to do well on other surfaces.

Only 4 of Muster's 44 career titles were off clay. He was definitely no clown on other surfaces (except on grass), but not really an example of an all-surface player. I can see why he would be described as a 'clay courter'.

leng jai
04-15-2009, 02:31 AM
Amazing the lack of depth in claycourt tennis these days. Apart from Nadal, we don't have any great claycourters. The ones who have been the most successful after him on the surface recently are nothing but all-surface players (e.g. Federer, Djokovic, Davydenko, Gonzalez, Nalbandian, Wawrinka, etc.) who arguably wouldn't do as well on the red stuff if the clay hadn't been sped up that much in the past decade.

The best claycourters after Nadal in this era? Ferrer, Robredo, Almagro, Volandri, etc. Enough said.

The last great claycourter before Nadal? Coria in 2005. Before that we had Gaudio in 2004, Ferrero in 2003, Costa in 2002, Kuerten up until 2001. Just a shame that we had so many of them in the first half of the decade, and only one of them in the second half.

Its depressing to think that if things went smoothly we could arguably still have Coria, Gaudio and Ferrero in full flight right now and Kuerten till around 06.

Action Jackson
04-15-2009, 02:36 AM
Its depressing to think that if things went smoothly we could arguably still have Coria, Gaudio and Ferrero in full flight right now and Kuerten till around 06.

All of them due to differing circumstances flew off the radar, except Ferrero who has the odd flash of his high quality play. Guga's hip fucking up, Coria's shoulder and nerve disappearing into Tierra del Fuego, then Gaudio running out of steam in 2006, then getting injured and lost momentum.

Things happen for a reason.

Action Jackson
04-15-2009, 02:40 AM
so true. Muster, while forced to reinvent himself on clay, was skilled enough and determined enough to do well on other surfaces.

What people fail to understand is that medically Muster couldn't play on hardcourts for an extended period of time, because of the knee problem due to the car accident. At the end of his career, the hip gave out and his clay game suffered as he was doing better on the hardcourts.

Clay Death
04-15-2009, 02:45 AM
He is competent on clay, that's it.

agreed. he has improved his game and his confidence so we will learn more about him here in Monte Carlo.

one difference that i have noted is that he is generally better with his transistion game now than he was a year ago. he is not afraid to step in a little closer and go on the attack.

competent is the best way to describe him for now. we need to see more this year now that he is #5.

heya
04-15-2009, 03:11 AM
Del Potro's too tall, and collapses when he can't play his best in 5 setters.

Muster was a brave soul. Even with anguish, he never choked with tears and self-pity.

Clay Death
04-15-2009, 03:18 AM
Del Potro's too tall, and collapses when he can't play his best in 5 setters.

Muster was a brave soul. Even with anguish, he never choked with tears and self-pity.

affirmative. that said, D-Pot should never be in the same converstion with Muster.

Muster was as superior to him in every way as the living are to the dead.

heya
04-15-2009, 03:19 AM
I can't believe some people rated Djokovic ahead of Federer on clay, thats crazy, Djokovic isn't even on the same level as Federer on clay, he'd struggle to take a set.To his credit, Novak-Sore-Throat never scraped by a 2-5 3rd set deficit in Monte Carlo against Ramirez-Hidalgo. He also didn't get awarded the humanitarian trophy after such a match either.

vamosinator
04-15-2009, 05:36 AM
I'd like Djokovic in the RG Final, that'd be fun, especially after seeing that Davis Cup match v Nadal, that was some mismatch WOW awesome

Clay Death
04-15-2009, 03:25 PM
I'd like Djokovic in the RG Final, that'd be fun, especially after seeing that Davis Cup match v Nadal, that was some mismatch WOW awesome

what exactly are you trying to say?

vamosinator
04-15-2009, 04:06 PM
what exactly are you trying to say?

I'd enjoy beating Djokovic in the RG Final more than Federer. Federer is a case of been there done that, so lets embarass Djokovic this time. But when Wimbledon comes I hope to see Federer in tears once more :D

Crazy Girl
04-15-2009, 04:43 PM
I'd enjoy beating Djokovic in the RG Final more than Federer. Federer is a case of been there done that, so lets embarass Djokovic this time. But when Wimbledon comes I hope to see Federer in tearsTears of happiness?? once more :DI hope to see you in tears much before of Wimbledon....:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
However....Roger's tears are the sweetest thing I never seen before!!! I loved Roger also before of AO, but after...also much...much more!!!

Arkulari
04-15-2009, 04:44 PM
1 - Rafa Nadal
2 - Roger Federer
3 - everybody else.

All of this dependent on form, of course.

totally agree with you, I'd put Fat Dave, Kolya and maybe Djoker as well in there, Almagro and the other clay mugs only really work in MM tournaments :o

Clay Death
04-15-2009, 04:57 PM
totally agree with you, I'd put Fat Dave, Kolya and maybe Djoker as well in there, Almagro and the other clay mugs only really work in MM tournaments :o


well looks like Action Jackson was right. D-Pot has a lot to prove on clay. he is just adequate on dirt at best.

not great but adequate or relatively competent.