Wimbledon seeding is out [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Wimbledon seeding is out

jtipson
06-16-2004, 01:38 PM
BBC only has the top 5 at the moment:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tennis/3811843.stm

1. Federer
2. Roddick
3. Coria
4. Nalbandian
5. Henman

Neely
06-16-2004, 01:42 PM
Coria on 3?
I always thought that Wimbledon is special and that they don't go by the rankings :confused: or what was it?
and now they have Coria on 3? what a joke LOL :banghead:

jtipson
06-16-2004, 01:44 PM
They go by a formula (but we don't know what that is yet). It would be very difficult to promote Nalbandian (or anyone else) above Coria, because there is such a big gap in the points between them.

Deboogle!.
06-16-2004, 01:44 PM
The seeded players on the wimby site now says TODAY's date so my guess is the whole list will be up soon.

henman 5th though.... ugh.

star
06-16-2004, 01:51 PM
They go by a formula (but we don't know what that is yet). It would be very difficult to promote Nalbandian (or anyone else) above Coria, because there is such a big gap in the points between them.

Isn't the formula the same formula announced a couple of years ago? You and I seem to have a different understanding about the immutability of this formula. :)

When you applied that formula, this is the way the seedings turned out. So, I'm not surprised.

hitchhiker
06-16-2004, 01:53 PM
Isn't the formula the same formula announced a couple of years ago? You and I seem to have a different understanding about the immutability of this formula. :)

When you applied that formula, this is the way the seedings turned out. So, I'm not surprised.


wimbledon have the power to change the formula every year

alfonsojose
06-16-2004, 01:55 PM
Nalbadian has 2625 ranking points. Using Wimbledon formula, add the grass ranking points earned from Nalbadian last year (150 from Wimbledon 4R) and 75% of his best grass result ever (525 from 2002 Wimbledon final). It gives Nalbadian 3300 ranking points.

Coria has 3740 ranking points. Even without aditional grass ranking points from the formula, Coria is ahead

star
06-16-2004, 01:55 PM
Of course, they have the power to do it. I have never disputed that.

However, I believe they made an agreement to use a precise formula. If they change the formula, they are breaking that agreement. That is my only point.

Wimbledon has the power to sack the formula and seed entirely by whim.

jtipson
06-16-2004, 01:57 PM
Isn't the formula the same formula announced a couple of years ago? You and I seem to have a different understanding about the immutability of this formula. :)

When you applied that formula, this is the way the seedings turned out. So, I'm not surprised.

star from what I've read I believe they can change the formula; however, I may be wrong, and at the moment I can't find any doc which substantiates either position :)

Edit: I thought the agreement was to use a formula that gives a grass-weighting, not to use a specific formula.

But no, I'm not really surprised at the seedings so far.

Deboogle!.
06-16-2004, 01:58 PM
also from the BBC article about lleyton and Flip

The 2002 champion, ranked 10th, is the seventh seed while fellow Australian Mark Philippoussis is lifted eight places to 11th after reaching the final last year.

hitchhiker
06-16-2004, 01:58 PM
However, I believe they made an agreement to use a precise formula. If they change the formula, they are breaking that agreement. That is my only point.


the agreement was to use a formula rather then giving out seeds at random like they used to

they never agreed to use the same rules every year and they used a changed formula last year when henmans ranking was poor as they made best ever result worth more in the formula

Havok
06-16-2004, 01:59 PM
Again, I would like the person who tried to make me feel dumb in saying that Coria won't be getting the #3 seed to show your face:D

Deboogle!.
06-16-2004, 02:04 PM
Here, got this from Reuters

1. Roger Federer (Switzerland)
2. Andy Roddick (U.S.)
3. Guillermo Coria (Argentina)
4. David Nalbandian (Argentina)
5. Tim Henman (Britain)
6. Juan Carlos Ferrero (Spain)
7. Lleyton Hewitt (Australia)
8. Rainer Schuettler (Germany)
9. Carlos Moya (Spain)
10. Sebastien Grosjean (France)
11. Mark Philippoussis (Australia)
12. Sjeng Schalken (Netherlands)
13. Paradorn Srichaphan (Thailand)
14. Mardy Fish (U.S.)
15. Nicolas Massu (Chile)
16. Jiri Novak (Czech Republic)
17. Jonas Bjorkman (Sweden)
18. Feliciano Lopez (Spain)
19. Marat Safin (Russia)
20. Tommy Rebredo (Spain)
21. Juan Ignacio Chela (Argentina)
22. Andrei Pavel (Romania)
23. Max Mirnyi (Belarus)
24. Fernando Gonzalez (Chile)
25. Dominik Hrbaty (Slovakia)
26. Taylor Dent (U.S.)
27. Robby Ginepri (U.S.)
28. Ivan Ljubicic (Croatia)
29. Nicolas Kiefer (Germany)
30. Vincent Spadea (U.S.)
31. Mikhail Youzhny (Russia)
32. Hicham Arazi (Morocco)

jtipson
06-16-2004, 02:06 PM
Thanks bunk! :) Pretty much as expected then. Can't see any major issues with that.

hitchhiker
06-16-2004, 02:07 PM
now the seedings make sense

the dirty poms, cheating donkeys.

the seeding is set up the way it is because the #5 seed cant meet the #7 seed until the semis, avoiding hewitt wont help henman as roddick is taking out henman anyway in his own backyard.

jtipson
06-16-2004, 02:10 PM
now the seedings make sense

the dirty poms, cheating donkeys.

the seeding is set up the way it is because the #5 seed cant meet the #7 seed until the semis, avoiding hewitt wont help henman as roddick is taking out henman anyway in his own backyard.

Please keep your xenophobia to yourself. The seedings look like they've followed the same formula as last year without any tinkering. The fact that Henman can't meet Hewitt until the semis is just a consequence of the seeding. Useful though :)

Deboogle!.
06-16-2004, 02:10 PM
Thanks bunk! :) Pretty much as expected then. Can't see any major issues with that.

You're welcome :) I had a feeling that if the BBC had some of the seeds that one of the news outlets would have them and since Reuters (IMO) has the best tennis coverage I started there and there it was :) Seeds seem pretty 'sensical' to me.

interesting about Henman and Hewitt... would they really be that devious?;)

star
06-16-2004, 02:11 PM
Hey, Hitchhiker, there's no need to use insults.

If these are the seedings according to the announced formula, I can't see that there is any problem with it.

As of yet, Heman isn't in Roddick's half, but after seeing Henman handle Roddick very easily at IW, I've got my fingers crossed that he lands in the other half. :)

star
06-16-2004, 02:14 PM
star from what I've read I believe they can change the formula; however, I may be wrong, and at the moment I can't find any doc which substantiates either position :)

Edit: I thought the agreement was to use a formula that gives a grass-weighting, not to use a specific formula.

But no, I'm not really surprised at the seedings so far.

Well, somehow, I've got to get this point settled. It's bothering me now.

I don't suppose that the committee would respond to my inquiry, do you? :D

i love paradorn
06-16-2004, 02:14 PM
I thought Nalbandian withdrew, so does everybody move up one?

jtipson
06-16-2004, 02:15 PM
You're welcome :) I had a feeling that if the BBC had some of the seeds that one of the news outlets would have them and since Reuters (IMO) has the best tennis coverage I started there and there it was :) Seeds seem pretty 'sensical' to me.

interesting about Henman and Hewitt... would they really be that devious?;)

Well, people would have said the same thing had he been seeded 4 - that they were placing him there to avoid Roddick and Federer in the quarters. So they can't really win! There was an advantage for Tim either way (and a disadvantage).

KarstenBraasch#1
06-16-2004, 02:15 PM
Kiefer seeded :fiery:

Deboogle!.
06-16-2004, 02:15 PM
oh and NOW they have it up on the Wimby site :lol:

I don't think Nalbandian has withdrawn, yet.

jtipson
06-16-2004, 02:16 PM
Well, somehow, I've got to get this point settled. It's bothering me now.

I don't suppose that the committee would respond to my inquiry, do you? :D


You could try star, I'd be interested to know too. We might see some articles over the next 24 hours explaining the system anyway, which could be helpful.

Deboogle!.
06-16-2004, 02:16 PM
Well, people would have said the same thing had he been seeded 4 - that they were placing him there to avoid Roddick and Federer in the quarters. So they can't really win! There was an advantage for Tim either way (and a disadvantage).

Why would they want him to avoid Andy and Roger? He has their number (based on head-to-head), where as Hewitt absolutely owns him. I can see them doing something to keep him away from Lleyton as long as possible much more than keeping him from Andy or Roger. But I was kidding, I don't really think they actually did anything shady:) And really if I didn't think Andy had such a good shot at making the Wimby finals, I'd be all for Tim. if Andy can't win, I want Tim to, he deserves it and it would be something amazing to watch I'm sure. But, yea..... LOL :devil:

star
06-16-2004, 02:17 PM
Since Nalbandian is playing in the exhibition, it seems to me he intends to play Wimbledon.

star
06-16-2004, 02:17 PM
You could try star, I'd be interested to know too. We might see some articles over the next 24 hours explaining the system anyway, which could be helpful.

I'm hoping for that. :)

jazz_girl
06-16-2004, 02:18 PM
David hasn't withdraw, he's playing an exhibition today. His first match is against Feliciano Lopez.

Deboogle!.
06-16-2004, 02:18 PM
from another Reuters article:
-----
In the men's event, champion Roger Federer has been made top seed ahead of world number two Andy Roddick. Unlike every other tournament in the world, Wimbledon does not follow the ATP's world rankings and instead uses a combination of rankings and grass-court form over recent years when determining men's seeds.

Britain's Tim Henman profited from the system. Four times a semi-finalist at the grass-court grand slam, he was boosted from his world ranking of six to fifth seed.

Lleyton Hewitt, champion in 2002, was named seventh seed despite being at 10 in the standings while his opponent in that final, Argentina's David Nalbandian was seeded fourth.

Wimbledon runs from June 21 to July 4.

alfonsojose
06-16-2004, 02:20 PM
Everything is Ok. :yeah: hitchhiker, you're really wrong

But i want to go right now to WTAhell.com. OMFG :shout: :boxing: Serena is 1, Miskina 2 and Venus 3. Cold war again :tape:

Did they use the same formula for women :confused: I think it's fair to put Serena as top seed, but it's better if you have a clear formula. That infamous entry protection ranking story is getting tired :rolleyes:

jtipson
06-16-2004, 02:21 PM
Why would they want him to avoid Andy and Roger? He has their number (based on head-to-head), where as Hewitt absolutely owns him. I can see them doing something to keep him away from Lleyton as long as possible much more than keeping him from Andy or Roger. But I was kidding, I don't really think they actually did anything shady:) And really if I didn't think Andy had such a good shot at making the Wimby finals, I'd be all for Tim. if Andy can't win, I want Tim to, he deserves it and it would be something amazing to watch I'm sure. But, yea..... LOL :devil:

You're quite right of course about the head-to-head, so there is certainly more reason to keep Tim away from Lleyton. But another point is that at 5, Tim should get a more difficult 4th round opponent (possibly Grosjean or an on-form Flipper would be quite a challenge) than if he were seeded four.

I guess we really don't know what their machinations have been over the last few days.

Wonder what happens if Nalbandian does withdraw before the draw is made? Would they move everyone up?

star
06-16-2004, 02:22 PM
David hasn't withdraw, he's playing an exhibition today. His first match is against Feliciano Lopez.

That was my point above.... although you might not have seen it, the posts have gone so quickly. It seems that since Nalbandian is playing the exhibition, he will play at Wimbledon.

hitchhiker
06-16-2004, 02:25 PM
why isnt grosjean higher?

Corey Feldman
06-16-2004, 02:25 PM
so who are the possible qf v qf players, from the seedings ???

Deboogle!.
06-16-2004, 02:26 PM
on-form Flipper

Good joke jtipson :lol: :rolls:


as sad as that makes me :sad:

Deboogle!.
06-16-2004, 02:26 PM
so who are the possible qf v qf players, from the seedings ???

1-4 gets 5-8 in the QF correct? so there are many possible combos

alfonsojose
06-16-2004, 02:27 PM
They used the same formula. Ranking points + grass ranking points from last year + 75% of ranking points of your best ever grass result

keredster
06-16-2004, 02:29 PM
sorry to interrupt. I wanna anyone's opinion that from your experiences which quarters do you think Hewitt will draw to? Federer? Roddick? Coria? Nalbandian?

I hope that Hewitt will draw to either Coria's or Nalbandian's quarters!!!
Hope that Hewitt will do real well in Wimbly and remember how he won it in 2002!!!

jtipson
06-16-2004, 02:29 PM
why isnt grosjean higher?

Because although his grass-court weighting is worth 736 points, when you add it he's still just behind Carlos Moya by 63 points.

hitchhiker
06-16-2004, 02:31 PM
whats hewitts weighting

jtipson
06-16-2004, 02:31 PM
Good joke jtipson :lol: :rolls:

as sad as that makes me :sad:

Sorry, I didn't mean it to be a joke. Right now, he doesn't look like a tough opponent, but what I meant was that if he finds his form, he would be a difficult draw for Henman (well, anyone really).

jtipson
06-16-2004, 02:33 PM
whats hewitts weighting

855 points. Takes him from 1745 to 2600.

Trolls Need Love Too
06-16-2004, 02:33 PM
Unfortunately the Poo has been really stinking at the moment, though he has the game for grass, does he have the right attitude just now. If he loses in the 1st round, how far would he fall down the rankings?

Deboogle!.
06-16-2004, 02:33 PM
Sorry, I didn't mean it to be a joke. Right now, he doesn't look like a tough opponent, but what I meant was that if he finds his form, he would be a difficult draw for Henman (well, anyone really).

LOL I know! I'm just being sillyyyyyyyy :silly: :crazy:

Don't mind me :o

I'd love nothing more for Flip to find his form in time for Wimby. If Andy can't win and Tim can't win, I'd want Flip to win.

Space Cowgirl
06-16-2004, 02:34 PM
Kiefer seeded :fiery:


:lol: :p

Go Kiwi! :devil:

jtipson
06-16-2004, 02:36 PM
Unfortunately the Poo has been really stinking at the moment, though he has the game for grass, does he have the right attitude just now. If he loses in the 1st round, how far would he fall down the rankings?

Around 60, unfortunately. It would depend on how everyone else does too, of course.

Trolls Need Love Too
06-16-2004, 02:37 PM
Thanks for that jtipson.

Neely
06-16-2004, 02:37 PM
29. Nicolas Kiefer (Germany)
LET'S GO, Nicolas!!! :woohoo: :woohoo:

he was just too good this year so far not being seeded... that makes him avoid Federer in the 2nd round :D :D

:bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :D

alfonsojose
06-16-2004, 02:39 PM
Nice avatar, Space cadet. Rainer looks amazing in blue ;)

Corey Feldman
06-16-2004, 02:41 PM
so qf could be something like

federer v schuettler
henman v nalbandian
roddick v hewitt
ferrero v coria ??

star
06-16-2004, 02:42 PM
They used the same formula. Ranking points + grass ranking points from last year + 75% of ranking points of your best ever grass result


Thanks Alfonso! :hug:

jtipson
06-16-2004, 02:47 PM
so qf could be something like

federer v schuettler
henman v nalbandian
roddick v hewitt
ferrero v coria ??

Naturally. That would make one quarter a free-for-all, wouldn't it (just like the bottom quarter at Roland Garros)?

How about:
Federer v Henman
Nalbandian v Hewitt
Coria v Schuettler
Roddick v Ferrero

That's what I'd call a travesty of justice ;)

star
06-16-2004, 02:49 PM
Naturally. That would make one quarter a free-for-all, wouldn't it (just like the bottom quarter at Roland Garros)?

How about:
Federer v Henman
Nalbandian v Hewitt
Coria v Schuettler
Roddick v Ferrero

That's what I'd call a travesty of justice ;)

I'd call that........ YAY!!!!!!!!!

:lol:

Deboogle!.
06-16-2004, 02:49 PM
Naturally. That would make one quarter a free-for-all, wouldn't it (just like the bottom quarter at Roland Garros)?

How about:
Federer v Henman
Nalbandian v Hewitt
Coria v Schuettler
Roddick v Ferrero

That's what I'd call a travesty of justice ;)

Maybe to you but it sounds great to me ;)

edit: See, star and I are on the same wavelength!!

Corey Feldman
06-16-2004, 02:53 PM
i think 1 way or another, there is no chance of any federer v henman final ??? looks like destined for the semis (if henman can make it that is :))

jtipson
06-16-2004, 02:54 PM
I really hope we don't get my suggestion. Federer has to have a break with the draw in a GS sometime soon. At least he can't get Nalbandian in the qf this time (would have been 4th time in a row that they'd been in the same quarter).

By the way, if any man manages to beat Hewitt and Nalbandian - put some money on him for the title. Both the GS champs this year completed this feat on the way to their championships.

Corey Feldman
06-16-2004, 02:55 PM
Naturally. That would make one quarter a free-for-all, wouldn't it (just like the bottom quarter at Roland Garros)?

How about:
Federer v Henman
Nalbandian v Hewitt
Coria v Schuettler
Roddick v Ferrero

That's what I'd call a travesty of justice ;)
imagine ferrero v coria in a wimbledon semi final :rolleyes:

jtipson
06-16-2004, 02:56 PM
i think 1 way or another, there is no chance of any federer v henman final ??? looks like destined for the semis (if henman can make it that is :))

We don't know which side of the draw Henman will be in. Obviously if he's drawn in the top, then no, that's not going to be possible.

Corey Feldman
06-16-2004, 02:56 PM
I really hope we don't get my suggestion. Federer has to have a break with the draw in a GS sometime soon. At least he can't get Nalbandian in the qf this time (would have been 4th time in a row that they'd been in the same quarter).

By the way, if any man manages to beat Hewitt and Nalbandian - put some money on him for the title. Both the GS champs this year completed this feat on the way to their championships.
lol great :) shouldnt be a problem for henman, he's only 1-11 combined versus hewitt/nalbus :)

crouching
06-16-2004, 03:01 PM
There is no "fixed" quarter final match up. The draw is completely random, except that they place the top two seeds in different halves. Even the 3rd and 4th seeds are placed in either half at random.

As for No. 5 Henman and No. 7 Hewitt meeting or not, they can either meet in the SFs or the finals, depending on which half they get randomly assigned.

In the most recent French and Aussie Opens, the seeded QF matches were both 1-7, 4-6, 5-3, 2-8

Going back further... we get,

USO 2003, 1-5, 3-6, 8-4, 2-7

Wimbledon 2003, 1-5, 4-8, 6-3, 2-7

FO 2003, 1-8, 3-6, 5-4, 2-7

AO 2003 1-7, 3-6, 5-4, 8-2

USO 2002 1-8, 4-6, 5-3, 7-2

Wimbledon 2002 1-7, 4-8, 5-3, 2-6

FO 2002 1-7, 5-3, 8-4, 6-2

AO 2002 1-7, 3-8, 5-4, 6-2

The facts above show that any of the top 4 seeds are seeded to meet any of seeds 5-8 in the quarterfinals. Not that No.1 always plays No. 8, No. 2 vs No. 7, No. 3 vs No. 6 etc... It's completely random.

jtipson
06-16-2004, 03:04 PM
Random - quite right. The same goes for the 3rd round and 4th round matchups:
3rd round: 1-8 play 25-32; 9-16 play 17-24
4th round: 1-4 play 13-16; 5-8 play 9-12

jtipson
06-16-2004, 03:07 PM
In the most recent French and Aussie Opens, the seeded QF matches were both 1-7, 4-6, 5-3, 2-8


Actually, at Roland Garros it was 1-8, 4-7, 5-3, 6-2 ;)

Vass
06-16-2004, 03:10 PM
All of a sudden I just hate Wimby. Coria is seeded 3? Safin is seeded 19? Agh.

Does anyone know in which round Safin will meet a top-10 seed? And more importantly, who it will be.

crouching
06-16-2004, 03:11 PM
Actually, at Roland Garros it was 1-8, 4-7, 5-3, 6-2 ;)

Sorry... I must have been reading the same two drawsheets! silly me... :)

crouching
06-16-2004, 03:14 PM
Safin is seeded 19 (ranked 15) because he has virtually no grass court points from the past two years to give him bonus points for Wimbledon seeding.

On the other hand, lots of players ranked below him have done well on grass in the past two years, e.g. Schalken, Fish, Philipoussis, Bjorkman and Lopez, so they get higher seeds than Safin as they have lots of bonus points.

jtipson
06-16-2004, 03:14 PM
Sorry... I must have been reading the same two drawsheets! silly me... :)

Just me being pernickity ;) I'm impressed you have records on all those...I've only got them the last 12 months!

crouching
06-16-2004, 03:17 PM
Just me being pernickity ;) I'm impressed you have records on all those...I've only got them the last 12 months!

Actually, I just looked at the ATP website and found the drawsheets in PDF format. No need to be impressed!

jtipson
06-16-2004, 03:22 PM
Vass, Safin will play someone seeded 9-16 in the third round, and anyone from 1-8 in the fourth round. Won't know who until the draw tomorrow.

Aleksa's Laydee
06-16-2004, 03:42 PM
mardy :cool:

Corey Feldman
06-16-2004, 04:08 PM
Random - quite right. The same goes for the 3rd round and 4th round matchups:
3rd round: 1-8 play 25-32; 9-16 play 17-24
4th round: 1-4 play 13-16; 5-8 play 9-12

going by that, henman may have 2 big hurdles in round 3 in Ljubicic or DENT!

azza
06-16-2004, 04:26 PM
Coria 3rd :haha:

cant wait to see which chum beats him in R1 Hopefully Arthurs or Toddles Reid gets him :)

Deboogle!.
06-16-2004, 04:31 PM
Here are the dubs seedings from the ATP site, for anyone who cares :)

GENTLEMEN'S DOUBLES
1 Jonas BJORKMAN (SWE) & Todd WOODBRIDGE (AUS)
2 Bob BRYAN (USA) & Mike BRYAN (USA)
3 Mahesh BHUPATHI (IND) & Max MIRNYI (BLR)
4 Michael LLODRA (FRA) & Fabrice SANTORO (FRA)
5 Mark KNOWLES (BAH) & Daniel NESTOR (CAN)
6 Wayne BLACK (ZIM) & Kevin ULLYETT (ZIM)
7 Wayne ARTHURS (AUS) & Paul HANLEY (AUS)
8 Martin DAMM (CZE) & Cyril SUK (CZE)
9 Gaston ETLIS (ARG) & Martin RODRIGUEZ (ARG)
10 Jonathan ERLICH (ISR) & Andy RAM (ISR)
11 Leander PAES (IND) & David RIKL (CZE)
12 Frantisek CERMAK (CZE) & Leos FRIEDL (CZE)
13 Jared PALMER (USA) & Pavel VIZNER (CZE)
14 Xavier MALISSE (BEL) & Olivier ROCHUS (BEL)
15 Mariano HOOD (ARG) & Sebastian PRIETO (ARG)
16 Julian KNOWLE (AUT) & Nenad ZIMONJIC (SCG)

CmonAussie
06-16-2004, 04:56 PM
@@ If I were Safin I'd be pretty pissed-off about being seeded below his ranking; anyway he may use this anger & channel it towards & big outcome!!!
* Sooner or latter Safin is going to win another Slam to add to his USO 4yrs ago-->> maybe his time has arrived again~ so long as he can sort out his blisters problem..

If Mark Philippoussis manages to make Rd4 then he should be relatively happy considering his run of 8? consecutive Rd1 exits >_<.!

@@ Hewitt should be reasonably happy with his seeding; so long as he's not Drawn against Karlovic in Rd1 &/or Safin in Rd4...

## Soderling & Srichaphan are the Dark Horses(**) i reckon.

MissPovaFan
06-16-2004, 05:09 PM
Coria 3rd :haha:

cant wait to see which chum beats him in R1 Hopefully Arthurs or Toddles Reid gets him :)

I wouldn't speak too soon mind - after all he beat Karol Beck 6-3 6-3 - a player that took out Tim Henman last week...

CmonAussie
06-16-2004, 05:13 PM
I wouldn't speak too soon mind - after all he beat Karol Beck 6-3 6-3 - a player that took out Tim Henman last week...
:wavey:
Unfortunately Coria lost his Rd2 match at Rosmalen today :sad: ..

*I've got a good feeling that Coria's pride will take him to Week-2 at Wimbledon~ he'll be keen to justify his seeding & prove he's much more than a 'clay-court specialist'; so probably Rd4 or QF likely ;) .

star
06-16-2004, 05:15 PM
:confused:

Deboogle!.
06-16-2004, 05:16 PM
:wavey:
Unfortunately Coria lost his Rd2 match at Rosmalen today :sad: ..
.

What are you talking about? he didn't play today

star
06-16-2004, 05:20 PM
The top half of the draw at Rosmalen plays tomorrow.

sigmagirl91
06-16-2004, 05:24 PM
Federer vs. Hewitt
Roddick vs. Schuettler
Coria vs. Henman
Nalbandian vs. Ferrero

Possible qtr. matchups....

CmonAussie
06-16-2004, 05:28 PM
What are you talking about? he didn't play today
:wavey:
Sorry mate; i got it wrong~ i was looking at the livescores & noticed Coria's name BUT that was a doubles match he lost today (6-7,6-7).

Anyway I'm happy to be mistaken this time :D because I want to see Coria win some more matches on Grass; possibly even take the Rosmalen title if he can :worship: -->> that would surely boost his confidence ahead of Wimbledon :cool: .

chris whiteside
06-16-2004, 05:45 PM
imagine ferrero v coria in a wimbledon semi final :rolleyes:


Couldn't be worse than a Hewitt/Nalbandian final!

Gonzo Hates Me!
06-16-2004, 05:49 PM
wow, so nalbandian will play? his injury is okay, everything is stable??

CmonAussie
06-16-2004, 06:06 PM
Couldn't be worse than a Hewitt/Nalbandian final!
:rolleyes:
Don't you think it's cool when we get an unexpected SF/Final matchups :cool: !
Wouldn't it be boring if No.1 & 2 seeds always ended up meeting in the finals :sad: ; also those supposedly exciting matchups {a la Sampras vs Agassi 99 Wimbledon} often end up being anti-climatic :confused: .

I would be very happy if Coria & Ferrero managed to meet in a Wimbledon SF; that way we would be guaranteed a Finalist from either Spain or Argentina-->> which would further dispell the myth Journalists perpetuate about "...they're only clay-court specialists...etc."

Unpredictability is the spice of life :p ; I'm sure Gaston Gaudio would agree with me :worship: !

star
06-16-2004, 07:18 PM
Federer vs. Hewitt
Roddick vs. Schuettler
Coria vs. Henman
Nalbandian vs. Ferrero

Possible qtr. matchups....

That's one senario, but the seeds might not line up like that even if everyone got through that far.

Deboogle!.
06-16-2004, 08:07 PM
Here's the article from the Wimby site
-------
The announcement that the All England Club's seeding committee had installed Roger Federer as the top seed for the men's singles at The Championships was, to say the least, not unexpected. The Swiss 22-year-old is, after all the defending champion and world number one. Besides those unanswerable credentials, Federer is also in a rich vein of form, having won the grass court tournament at Halle en route to Wimbledon and has now amassed a 17-match winning streak on grass.

The placing of the American 21-year-old Andy Roddick as second seed was similarly predictable. Roddick was in unstoppable form as he retained the Stella Artois title in London and he, too, has an impressive grass court streak, having won 15 of his last 16 matches on the surface. The only setback Roddick suffered was his defeat by Federer in the semi-finals of Wimbledon 2003.

It is, perhaps, of some surprise that these two should be followed in the seedings by a pair of Argentinians, Guillermo Coria and David Nalbandian. Though they also stand third and fourth in the world rankings their grass court record does not compare to that of Tim Henman, the 29-year-old who is Britain's perennial hope of Centre Court glory. Though he was a finalist at the French Open recently, Coria has amassed the points for his exalted ranking almost exclusively from clay court activity. Further, he was pushed to the limit to beat Henman in the Roland Garros semi-finals.

There is more of a case for awarding Nalbandian a seeding to compare with his world ranking, since he was runner-up to Lleyton Hewitt at the 2002 Championships in his debut year as a senior player.

Henman's world ranking is, in fact, sixth, but the decision to move him up to fifth seed was no more than expected, or indeed what his devoted British supporters would have demanded. He displaces Spain's Juan Carlos Ferrero, a clay king who has suffered illness and a poor run of results of late.

Mark Philippoussis, who has endured a wretched run of results this year, will be heartened by the decision to raise him eight places - from 19th in the rankings to 11th seed - in recognition of his feat in getting to last year's final unseeded. Philippoussis' fellow-Australian Hewitt, the only other seed apart from Federer to have won the men's singles title previously, also receives a boost from 10th in the rankings to seventh seed, no more than he would have expected since he has been naming himself among the four men he deems likeliest to win, the others being Federer, Roddick and Henman.

Sebastien Grosjean, a rare Frenchman who tends to play better on grass than clay and who was a semi-finalist in 2003, is also elevated from a ranking of 13 to 10th seed, the only one from his country to make it into the top 32.

Two other players, both Americans, have benefitted from Wimbledon's inclination to lift the seedings of proven performers on grass. So Taylor Dent, ranked 31, and Robby Ginepri (34) are awarded 26th and 27th seeding spots.

Federer has already been installed as firm favourite at 6/5 with London bookmakers Ladbrokes, followed by Roddick at 4/1, Henman at 5/1 and Hewitt 10/1. The United States, with five players, is the nation with top representation among the 32 seeds, while Spain is second with four. An indication of the depth in men's tennis around the world is shown by the presence among the seeds of players from Morocco, Thailand and Belarus.

Fedex
06-16-2004, 08:47 PM
Federer vs. Hewitt
Roddick vs. Schuettler
Coria vs. Henman
Nalbandian vs. Ferrero

Possible qtr. matchups....
Hey that would be great QF Matchups :) I really WANT Federer to fraw Hewitt in the QF, to further improve his record against Hewitt. Nalbandian vs. Ferrero, would work out well for Nalbandian, as he owns Ferrero. Coria-Henman :confused: No way in hell Coria well get that far ;) , but it would be a good matchup for Henman, nonetheless

YoursTruly
06-16-2004, 08:53 PM
Wimbledon is really exclusive! lol. It's clear that a lot of it, just like in the formula, is balancing out the ranking with their grass court success and ability. You see much bigger jumps between ranking and seeding because of how much diversity there is in players and their results. Very interesting to think about Wimbledon's seeding process. :eek:

Chloe le Bopper
06-16-2004, 09:11 PM
They made the right decision regarding Coria-Nalbandian-Henman, imo. Coria just had too many points for Henman or Nalbandian to overtake him with their grass points, and subjective seeding of any kind is absolute bullshit.

jtipson
06-17-2004, 06:53 AM
For those interested in the formula, please see the following piece from Bob Larson.
BTW the formula has changed every year since it was instigated, albeit slightly.(Thanks to Hops and Robert B Waltz from rst.)

2001: used 4 years of grass court history
2002: used 2 years of grass court history (100% gc pts last 52 wks + 75% best gc result in previous 52 weeks)
2003: used 2 years of grass court history (100% gc pts last 52 wks + 50% all gc results in previous 52 weeks)
2004: same as 2002

===================
Seed and Roll
When Wimbledon announced the men's seed list on Wednesday, several days later than in the past, it of course adjusted the seed list. The interesting question is, how did their adjusted list affect things?

The answer is at once a lot and very little. A lot, in that Lleyton Hewitt, e.g., is promoted all the way into the Top Eight. But very little, in that Guillermo Coria -- who had never won a grass match until this week, after the seed list should theoretically have been complete -- remains the #3 seed. The first place the seed list differs from the ranking list is at #5, with Tim Henman moved ahead of Juan Carlos Ferrero; the first significant change (i.e. one that affects the seeding tiers) is Hewitt's promotion to #7.

The table below shows the actual seed, the seed they would have received had the rankings been followed, and the number of places moved as a result of the formula. The first column, "Seed," is the seed the player actually was given. The second, "Name," is of course the player's name. "Rank" is the player's Entry System ranking this week. "Expected" is the seed he would have received had the rankings been followed. And "Diff" is the number of places the player was promoted or demoted by the system -- a positive number is a promotion, a negative a demotion. Thus Henman's Diff is 1; he was promoted from the #6 ranking to the #5 seed, while Juan Carlos Ferrero, ranked #5, was demoted to #6 -- a Diff of -1.


Seed.Name............Rank..Expected..Diff
1...Federer.............1......1.......0
2...Roddick.............2......2.......0
3...Coria...............3......3.......0
4...Nalbandian..........4......4.......0
5...Henman..............6......6.......1
6...Ferrero.............5......5......-1
7...Hewitt.............10......9.......2
8...Schuettler..........8......8.......0
9...Moya................7......7......-2
10...Grosjean...........13.....11.......1
11...Philippoussis......19.....17.......6
12...Schalken...........17.....15.......3
13...Srichaphan.........14.....12......-1
14...Fish...............18.....16.......2
15...Massu..............12.....10......-5
16...Novak..............16.....14......-2
17...Bjorkman...........27.....24.......7
18...Lopez..............22.....20.......2
19...Safin..............15.! ....13......-6
20...Robredo............23.....21.......1
21...Chela..............20.....18......-3
22...Pavel..............21.....19......-3
23...Mirnyi.............28.....25.......2
24...Gonzalez...........26.....23......-1
25...Hrbaty.............25.....22......-3
26...Dent...............31.....28.......2
27...Ginepri............34.....30.......3
28...Ljubicic...........29.....26......-2
29...Kiefer.............33.....29.......0
30...Spadea.............30.....27......-3
31...Youzhny............36.....32.......1
32...Arazi..............35.....31......-1

Thus we see that Jonas Bjorkman earned the biggest promotion (7 places), followed by Mark Philippoussis (6 places), and then Sjeng Schalken and Robby Ginepri (3 places). The biggest demotion went to Marat Safin (6 places), then Nicolas Massu (5 places), then Juan Ignacio Chela, Andrei Pavel, Dominik Hrbaty, and Vincent Spadea (3 places each).

However, what matters is not spots gained or lost (except in terms of prestige, perhaps); whether Henman is #5 or #6, he's seeded for the quarterfinal. What he, and British fans, were hoping for as #4. In the end, what counts is seeding tiers. Seeds who made significant moves were the following:

PROMOTED:

7. Hewitt.........from R16(#9-#12) to QF
11. Philippoussis..from R32(#17-#24) to R16(#9-#12)
12. Schalken.......from R16(#13-#16) to R16(#9-#12)
23. Mirnyi.........from R32(#25-#32) to R32(#17-#24)

DEMOTED:

9. Moya...........from QF to R16 (#9-#12)
13. Srichaphan.....from R16(#9-#12) to R16(#13-#16)
15. Massu..........from R16(#9-#12) to R16(#13-#16)
19. Safin..........from R16(#13-#16) to R32(#17-#24)
25. Hrbaty.........from R32(#17-#24) to R32(#25-#32)

So the biggest formal promotion is Philippoussis's; he is the only player to gain two seeding tiers (from the high end of the Round of 32 to the high end of the Round of 16). In practice, though, the biggest beneficiary is Hewitt, and his victim is Moya. Philippoussis is the clear second; these two are the only players to actually be advanced a round in the seeding (as opposed to being promoted from the low to the high half of their seeding tiers). The only player to be demoted a round is Moya.

That leaves the question of the formula used to create this seed list. This is the fourth year that Wimbledon has seeded by formula, and in the first three years, they changed formulas every year. What's more, in the last two years, they didn't announce the formula until they announced the seeds.

And they wonder why people don't care for the results!

This year, they didn't even announce the formula that we can find. Someone obviously knows, and the players have to be told, but they didn't tell us.

Fortunately, we can guess at the formula and be pretty sure we've hit it when we get the right seed list. Our guess was that their real concern was to promote Tim Henman to at least the #4 seed (which, surely, he deserves). But, as we had demonstrated last week, that was effectively impossible ("effectively" meaning "they could make it happen, but only by producing an otherwise-ridiculous seed list). That being so, our guess was that they would stick with last year's formula: Total Entry System points, plus all grass points earned in the last year (weeks of Nottingham 2003, Wimbledon 2003, Newport 2003, and Queen's 2004), plus half of grass points earned the year before that.

It proved not to be so. Under that formula, the seeds would be:


Seed.Name.............Rank..Expected..Diff...Point s
1...Federer.............1......1.......0....6970
2...Roddick.............2......2.......0....5560
3...Coria...............3......3.......0....3750
4...Nalbandian..........4......4.......0....3125
5...Henman..............6......6.......1....3040
6...Ferrero.............5......5......-1....2677.5
7...Schuettler..........8......8.......0....2562.5
8...Moya................7......7......-2....2460
9...Hewitt.............10......9.......2....2410
10...Grosjean...........13.....11.......1....2392. 5
11...Philippoussis......19.....17.......6....2102. 5
12...Schalken...........17.....15.......3....2005
13...Srichaphan.........14.....12......-1....1800
14...Fish...............18.....16.......2....1712. 5
15...Massu..............12.....10......-5....1710.5
16...Novak..............16.....14......-2....1615
17...Bjor! kman...........27.....24.......7....1555
18...LopezF.............22.....20.......2....1505
19...Safin..............15.....13......-6....1442.5
20...Robredo............23.....21.......1....1390
21...Chela..............20.....18......-3....1357.5
22...Pavel..............21.....19......-3....1306.5
23...Mirnyi.............28.....25.......2....1225
24...Gonzalez...........26.....23......-1....1157.5
25...Dent...............31.....28.......2....1152. 5
26...Hrbaty.............25.....22......-3....1148.5
27...Ljubicic...........29.....26......-2....1107.5
28...Ginepri............34.....30.......3....1105
29...Kiefer.............33.....29.......0....1092. 5
30...Spadea.............30.....27......-3....1057.5
31...Youzhny............36.....32.......1....1025
32...Arazi..............35.....31......-1.....953

Note that this would make Moya the #8 seed. Otherwise, it's pretty close to the actual Wimbledon list. But that gives us the clue we need. The formula is not the one used last year; rather, it is the formula used in 2002, which instead of taking half of all points earned two years ago, uses 75% of the player's biggest event in the two-years-ago period.

The change last year really surprised us, since -- as we showed at the time -- it was a difference that made no difference; either of the above formulae would have produced the same functional seed list in 2003.

Not this year. The following table shows the difference in seeding numbers each player would have received under the 2003 and 2004 formulae. Where they differ, the final column shows the difference. And where that difference results in a change of seeding tier, we've marked it *. The first column is the seed the player actually was given, the second his name, the third his seeding under the 2003 formula, and the last the difference between the two alternate seedings -- where a positive number means a player who would have done better under the 2003 formula, and a negative means a player who would have done better under the 2002/2004 formula.


Seed.Name..........2003 Seed..Diff
1...Federer.............1
2...Roddick.............2
3...Coria...............3
4...Nalbandian..........4
5...Henman..............5
6...Ferrero.............6
8...Schuettler..........7.......1
9...Moya................8.......1*
7...Hewitt..............9......-2*
10...Grosjean...........10
11...Philippoussis......11
12...Schalken...........12
13...Srichaphan.........13
14...Fish...............14
15...Massu..............15
16...Novak..............16
17...Bjorkman...........17
18...LopezF.............18
19...Safin..............19
20...Robredo............20
21...Chela..............21
22...Pavel..............22
23...Mirnyi.............23
24...Gonzalez...........24
26...Dent...............25.......1
25...Hrbaty.............26......-1
28...Ljubicic...........27.......1
27...Ginepri............28......-1
29...Kiefer.............29
3! 0...Spadea.............30
31...Youzhny............31
32...Arazi..............32

Although there are differences, the differences are slight. Only seven players are affected at all. Only two -- Hewitt and Moya -- have their seeding tiers affected. And only one -- Hewitt -- moves more than one spot.

And, truthfully, the 2002/2004 formula works better this year; Hewitt certainly has had better grass results than Moya! But, nonetheless, Wimbledon has once again changed the seeding formula. That's four times running. Not exactly a recommended technique for making people happy with you.

Incidentally, if you want to know where our primary missing seeds would have ended up -- had Andre Agassi been in the draw, he would have been seeded behind Grosjean (i.e. #11), Gaudio would have been behind Srichaphan (#14 is Agassi were still assumed to be out), Kuerten would have been behind Mirnyi (#24), and Zabaleta would have been dead last.

Frommage A Trois
06-17-2004, 09:05 AM
Finally I understand the explanations of the Wimbledon seeding system, though players have to beat whoever is on the other side of the net, wherever they are seeded or not.

CooCooCachoo
06-17-2004, 09:06 AM
20. Tommy Rebredo (Spain)


Vamos Tommy!

Lalitha
06-17-2004, 09:31 AM
How can they give Coria the no.3. that too when he has won his first match on grass only last fortnight?

YoursTruly
06-17-2004, 03:29 PM
GO TOMMY!! PRECIOSO!!! :)