Djokovic: a hint of snobbery here? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Djokovic: a hint of snobbery here?

Herdwick
01-28-2008, 05:44 PM
Roger Federer comes from a comfortable background in Switzerland; Rafael Nadal from an affluent family in Majorca. Jo-Wilfried Tsonga is the son of a chemistry professor. By contrast, it sounds as though the Djokovics are not highly educated and have had to fight hard for every penny.

What are the backgrounds of the majority of posters here and might these affect your opinions?

I ask because the strongest recurring theme in the Djokovic-bashing is that he and his family 'lack class'. Being a Brit, and therefore living in what is still one of the most class-obsessed countries on the planet, the discussions/criticisms of Djokovic and his parents are very reminiscent of those in our broadsheet newspapers when commenting on the likes of Wayne Rooney (young English soccer star for those not familiar) and his family.

Working class Scot here BTW...

Burrow
01-28-2008, 05:59 PM
Working class...

Far from rich here.

Most tennis players I would imagine would have a bit of money behind them (before they became players)

Farenhajt
01-28-2008, 06:00 PM
Another contribution to Spartan-vs-Ballet tennis dispute. Tennis really should outgrow its fancy-colonialistic-Sunday-entertainment-for-stonefaced-wrinkled-aristocrats origin and status. Those can keep their polo and cricket (no one would mind), but tennis should become a true gladiator sport.

As for Rooney, his "classy" critics can really just s*** his c***.

Burrow
01-28-2008, 06:03 PM
I know guys who play cricket and the majority of them are far from rich, another stereotype.

Clara Bow
01-28-2008, 06:08 PM
I always thought that Nole's family was fine off economically- they ran their restaurant when he was young and I always thought he was fairly comfortable.

Here in the US- you can say that individual's actions lack class regardless of their socio-economic background. And I don't think that the majority of posters who find fault with some of Nole's actions and that of his family are doing it as a class - or national- issue, but in fact because they may not think that everything he and they do is wonderful.

I am from a middle class background although my family became more firmly entrenched in middle class through the years as when I was little there were harder times with money. Both of my parents come from working class backgrounds, and their parents came from I guess what would be considered poverty.

Most tennis players I would imagine would have a bit of money behind them (before they became players)

If I recall correctly- I think there has has been some friction in Argentinian tennis because some of the players (Gaudio for one) do not come from well-to-do backgrounds and did not always get the support they needed from the country's tennis federation.

Stensland
01-28-2008, 06:13 PM
tennis in germany is still a "classy" sport. i consider myself middle-class. i think the main problem with players from the second world (no offense) is that either they're filthy effing rich (like gulbis) or poor and low-class (like djokovic) whereas tennis has always been a middle-class sport player-wise and audience-wise.

i guess that's why many people in the western world have problems with the antics of eastern europeans for example (dementieva, djokovic, myskina, sharapova etc.). they have a different background and had to fight for everything they have now. boris becker would be well off even of he didn't play tennis. sport wasn't his silver lining back in the day, but it apparently was for djokovic for example. tennis was his way out of misery, figuratively, just like the ghetto kids in brazil play football to make a living.

Herdwick
01-28-2008, 06:15 PM
I always thought that Nole's family was fine off economically- they ran their restaurant when he was young and I always thought he was fairly comfortable.

Here in the US- you can say that individual's actions lack class regardless of their socio-economic background. And I don't think that the majority of posters who find fault with some of Nole's actions and that of his family are doing it as a class - or national- issue, but in fact because they may not think that everything he and they do is wonderful.

To clarify; the British view of class is not really based on financial considerations - there is more to it than that. Class in the UK is best summed up as a perceived social rank combined with a shared outlook/set of prejudices.

Clara Bow
01-28-2008, 06:15 PM
r poor and low-class (like djokovic)

Where has it been stated that Nole grew up poor? I have always thought that the family was comfortable enough and middle class.

I think that Ljubicic, for example, had a much, much more hardscrabble background.

Svetlana.
01-28-2008, 06:16 PM
Another contribution to Spartan-vs-Ballet tennis dispute. Tennis really should outgrow its fancy-colonialistic-Sunday-entertainment-for-stonefaced-wrinkled-aristocrats origin and status. Those can keep their polo and cricket (no one would mind), but tennis should become a true gladiator sport.

As for Rooney, his "classy" critics can really just s*** his c***.

Sharapova was not even close to be wealthy when she came to the USA, but she's always been very graceful and keep/has respect for old traditions. I like tennis the way it is and would not like it to become a gladiator sport. If you are bored watching tennis then you should become a fan of other sport.

NinaNina19
01-28-2008, 06:17 PM
Djokovic's parents were rich actually for your imformation. They owned several restaurants.

Bascule
01-28-2008, 06:18 PM
Novak's mother, as I know, has finished the sport university, and she was for a long time skiing instructor, as his father was. But, anyway, they belong to the group of lucky ones, cause they had money for Nole's tennis academy back in Germany. My friend came from Paris with her son, she pays his tennis lessons 60 eu in Paris, in Belgrade it is 20 eu for a lesson. But, if an electro engineer here in Serbia has 5000 eu a year (and that's good salary here), forget about tennis (you can only watch).
So, we are working class, that means we are classy. :)

Herdwick
01-28-2008, 06:20 PM
Djokovic's parents were rich actually for your imformation. They owned several restaurants.

Not so, if this is to be believed:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/29/sports/tennis/29tennis.html?ref=tennis

NinaNina19
01-28-2008, 06:23 PM
It is actually less than 20 euros. I went to Partizan, a sports club in Belgrade, to get lessons this summer while I was visiting my family and it was 15 euros per lesson (20 dollars).

Stensland
01-28-2008, 06:23 PM
so why does djokovic continue to point out that his whole family sacrificed a lot just to make him play tennis? that wouldn't make any sense, as it's not that hard to buy a racquet and just hit the court with friends. doesn't need to be the best racquet anyways.

*edit: ok, the link provided above this post explains his background. turns out i was right. :D

NinaNina19
01-28-2008, 06:26 PM
Not so, if this is to be believed:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/29/sports/tennis/29tennis.html?ref=tennisThey're over-dramatizing his story. He was wealthy. It's well-known. The only thing is that being wealthy in Serbia is different than being wealthy in other European countries, but nonetheless his parents were fairly well off. I mean they owned several restaurants. That really says it all.

Stensland
01-28-2008, 06:28 PM
They're over-dramatizing his story. He was wealthy. It's well-known. The only thing is that being wealthy in Serbia is different than being wealthy in other European countries, but nonetheless his parents were fairly well off. I mean they owned several restaurants. That really says it all.

why would djokovic lie about his background if facts like the ones you believe are (supposedly) well-known? that doesn't make any sense to me.

Bascule
01-28-2008, 06:28 PM
Because, his tennis probably cost a lot. Wealthy people here are as wealthy as your middle class is.

zicofirol
01-28-2008, 06:31 PM
im billionaire rich.

Stensland
01-28-2008, 06:31 PM
Because, his tennis probably cost a lot. Wealthy people here are as wealthy as your middle class is.

maybe, but prices for tennis would exponentially decrease, i'd suppose, meaning: if the average of the population earns less than the western europeans, tennis lessons are probably a little cheaper as well. otherwise tennis would simply die as there are not enough people around who are able to pay for the sport.

learning the piano is way more expensive in germany than in poland, for example, even if it's the same thing of course.

Bascule
01-28-2008, 06:32 PM
It is actually less than 20 euros. I went to Partizan, a sports club in Belgrade, to get lessons this summer while I was visiting my family and it was 15 euros per lesson (20 dollars).

Oh, give me a break. To me it's the same: 15 or 20, I can't pay anyway.
My friend took her son to the tennis lessons and she told me so, and maybe because the instructor was some ex Troicki's instructor.

G4.
01-28-2008, 06:32 PM
wasnt Djoko's father a pro skier ?

NinaNina19
01-28-2008, 06:33 PM
so why does djokovic continue to point out that his whole family sacrificed a lot just to make him play tennis? that wouldn't make any sense, as it's not that hard to buy a racquet and just hit the court with friends. doesn't need to be the best racquet anyways.

*edit: ok, the link provided above this post explains his background. turns out i was right. :DEvery family has to make sacrifices. Yes, sending him to Germany was probably pretty expensive for them but it's not like he came off the streets. Tennis is a very expensive sport so unless you're a multimillionaire or your kid gets a really good sponsorship and well as several scholarships early on, you're going to have to make some sacrifices. I guarantee you that he was not poor though, nor was he even middle class. But then again if you have a salary of a 1000 euros a month in Serbia you are considered to be well-paid. Djokovic's parents probably had a good deal more than this but still they probably had to sacrifice a lot to give Novak the training he needed. Still, compared to other families in Serbia, Novak was very wealthy. The kids you see training tennis in Serbia aren't the poor kids off the street nor the middle class ones. They're the rich kids whose parents own 50,000 euro cars and so on.

Clara Bow
01-28-2008, 06:34 PM
I have a solid working class background and am damn proud of it - and I still think Novak's parents behaved ridiculously during the final. And I actually like Nole quite a bit.

Criticizing people for their behavior has nothing to do with one's economic background, and it would be nice if people realized that before coming up with broad, inaccurate stereotypes or making armchair speculations about the motivations of fans.

Well said. People may not enjoy all aspects of Nole and his family for reasons that are beyond "class." Just because one thinks that Nole can get a little pouty on court and Mamma Nole could chose her words better does not mean that they are longing for the days of restricted country club tennis.

Not being 100% infatuated with all things Nole does not necessarily make someone a snob who dislikes all thinks Serbian.

The Pro
01-28-2008, 06:34 PM
It seems to me when most people say that Nole's parents lack class, it's not really in terms of social scale, but an a behavioural measure.

I can't speak for everyone, but as a working class Scot (I'm sure there's a few around here) I'm more likely to judge a player or their entourage if I see them as unpleasantly middle class - obviously I have to subdue that since this IS tennis. :p
I've only felt that way about Tim's parents, since they always seemed like such disinterested old fogies - that is until I saw Tim's dad cry at his last match, then I felt terrible. :sad:

Anyway, a player or family being 'classless' goes beyond money, it's more to do with behaviour. I mean whatever you think about the Willams' sisters, we know the story of them playing tennis in backstreet courts with broken bottles, but Oracene Williams comes across as a rather classy individual, for example, even if Serena may not always :p

So no, I don't think there's snobbery at work.

NinaNina19
01-28-2008, 06:35 PM
Oh, give me a break. To me it's the same: 15 or 20, I can't pay anyway.
My friend took her son to the tennis lessons and she told me so, and maybe because the instructor was some ex Troicki's instructor.I wasn't trying to be mean, I was just trying to stress the difference between prices. Here in America you have to pay close to 100 dollars for a good trainer but in Serbia it's like 20 dollars for one of the best ones they have in the club. I was like:eek:. I took like 4 or 5 lessons a week.

Stensland
01-28-2008, 06:35 PM
Every family has to make sacrifices. Yes, sending him to Germany was probably pretty expensive for them but it's not like he came off the streets. Tennis is a very expensive sport so unless you're a multimillionaire or your kid gets a really good sponsorship and well as several scholarships early on, you're going to have to make some sacrifices. I guarantee you that he was not poor though, nor was he even middle class. But then again if you have a salary of a 1000 euros a month in Serbia you are considered to be well-paid. Djokovic's parents probably had a good deal more than this but still they probably had to sacrifice a lot to give Novak the training he needed. Still, compared to other families in Serbia, Novak was very wealthy. The kids you see training tennis in Serbia aren't the poor kids off the street nor the middle class ones. They're the rich kids whose parents own 50,000 euro cars and so on.

ok, so you think he's simply lying about his background? you did read his statements in that nytimes-article, right?

Mr. Magassi
01-28-2008, 06:36 PM
Humility and graciousness doesn't cost money or status... all I can say is Karma's a bitch ;)

Bibberz
01-28-2008, 06:37 PM
I agree. Didn't Mary Carillo (or was it good ol' Enberg?) say during the final that Djokovic's parents built him a tennis court within walking distance of the ski resort they owned? That makes for a less compelling news article ("Rich Kid Makes Splash" isn't the best headline).

I'm sure he persevered in the face of other obstacles, but that's another point entirely. I like Djokovic for reasons unrelated to his family's socioeconomic background, so I'm not that bothered either way.....



They're over-dramatizing his story. He was wealthy. It's well-known. The only thing is that being wealthy in Serbia is different than being wealthy in other European countries, but nonetheless his parents were fairly well off. I mean they owned several restaurants. That really says it all.

NinaNina19
01-28-2008, 06:40 PM
ok, so you think he's simply lying about his background? you did read his statements in that nytimes-article, right?
No:rolleyes:. I'm just saying that he's not some poor kid fighting for survival like the thread starter claimed. Djokovic grew up rich in his country. He did not have to fight to survive as his family had enough money. However his parents did have to sacrifice and give a lot of money to support his tennis career. So yeah, his parents had to sacrifice a lot, but he was not close to poor nor was he close to some kid off the streets. So I highly doubt people dislike him because his family was not rich (they were).

NinaNina19
01-28-2008, 06:41 PM
I agree. Didn't Mary Carillo (or was it good ol' Enberg?) say during the final that Djokovic's parents built him a tennis court within walking distance of the ski resort they owned? That makes for a less compelling news article ("Rich Kid Makes Splash" isn't the best headline).

I'm sure he persevered in the face of other obstacles, but that's another point entirely. I like Djokovic for reasons unrelated to his family's socioeconomic background, so I'm not that bothered either way.....Thank you:worship:.

Aloimeh
01-28-2008, 06:52 PM
Rrainier: lots of people like to whine. Often times the people who truly suffered are a bit more private with this sort of thing. Ana Ivanovic's mother is a filthy "rich" Belgrade lawyer, although in all honesty Ana is not really a big whiner. Djokovic's parents own multiple restaurants and Kopaonik is pretty good real estate in Serbia. I don't think the parents circumstances were particularly hard.

What's actually surprising is that so many good players are coming out of a country with no tennis tradition and poor facilities. The fact, though, is that nearly all of them were trained in the west - they were not trained in Serbian facilities, except Tipsarevic, who is unsurprisingly behind the rest but may catch up (?). As you know, Novak was in Germany, Ana in Switzerland, and Jelena in the USA - so their training conditions were actually similar to those of comparable German, Swiss, and American players. Same deal with Sharapova, who may have humble beginnings but was essentially trained in the USA.

l_mac
01-28-2008, 06:52 PM
Given that Novak's other career choice would have been professional skier, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that his family were never strapped for cash.

amierin
01-28-2008, 07:03 PM
It seems to me when most people say that Nole's parents lack class, it's not really in terms of social scale, but an a behavioural measure.

I've known well off people with no class and poor people with all the class in the world. The behavior of Novak's parents during that Final was tacky and low class, no matter how wealthy they are.

I think that NY Times article is shading the truth. I got the impression from the announcers that the Djokovic family did not come up from the streets as they are now trying to say. It is true that wealth in Serbia may not be the same as wealth in Greenwich Connecticut but everything is relative isn't it?

NinaNina19
01-28-2008, 07:08 PM
If I have to hear that Belgrade pool story again...

tennizen
01-28-2008, 07:15 PM
If I have to hear that Belgrade pool story again...

:haha: I know what you mean. They have this whole big drama going on. Even without questioning the truthfulness of it, its a sob story that has been done to death.

Bibberz
01-28-2008, 07:15 PM
I actually still like that story, but, as far as I know, Novak never had to play in that pool--maybe that's why he can deal with wide shots so well.

If I have to hear that Belgrade pool story again...

MissMelly2U
01-28-2008, 07:15 PM
The first have of my life my family was working class. We weren't destitute, but we lived from paycheck to paycheck. For the past 5 years we have been solidly entrenched in the middle class. We are very blessed.
Both my parents grew up poor in the inner city of Philadelphia. They have always taught me that it is not where you live but how you live, and that material possessions are fleeting, so don't place too much importance in them.

Where I'm from, "class" is more of a moral/behavioral distinction than a financial one. I think the Djokovics have plenty of class, but they lack grace, poise, and media finesse (especially the mom with her comments). I don't think that the cheering is all that bad. I'm sure that they made plenty of sacrifices and took on a lot of risks(not all of which were financial) in order to send their progeny to tennis school.

SAtennis
01-28-2008, 07:23 PM
The first have of my life my family was working class. We weren't destitute, but we lived from paycheck to paycheck. For the past 5 years we have been solidly entrenched in the middle class. We are very blessed.
Both my parents grew up poor in the inner city of Philadelphia. They have always taught me that it is not where you live but how you live, and that material possessions are fleeting, so don't place too much importance in them.

Where I'm from, "class" is more of a moral/behavioral distinction than a financial one. I think the Djokovics have plenty of class, but they lack grace, poise, and media finesse (especially the mom with her comments). I don't think that the cheering is all that bad. I'm sure that they made plenty of sacrifices and took on a lot of risks(not all of which were financial) in order to send their progeny to tennis school.

Agreed!
I feel bad for Novak because people have to analyze what makes his parents so damn wrong. Even their financial background! His parents should realize they have seriously marred their 20-year-old sons reputation.

pick241
01-28-2008, 07:29 PM
Class and background have nothing to do with anybody's career, but of course you need a decent amount to fund a potential tennis career so Djokovic's parents are not exactly poor. They just had to work a bit harder to support his career, themselves, aswell as financing two other kids.

Im in my 2nd year at Cambridge University, studying Economics, and most people assume either:
1) im from a very wealthy background,
2) upper-middle class
3) that im set for life with a degree from there or that such a name of a university on my CV will guarantee a job

yet none of these are true, all its down to is good exam results and interviews.

I dont think Djokovic's family were that 'classless' or 'tacky', they were merely cheering him on for his first ever Grand Slam win.
Although I do sense some desperation for fame and fortune. So if it's not the money they are after, then I can only assume its fame and recognition.

Komodo
01-28-2008, 07:35 PM
ok, so you think he's simply lying about his background? you did read his statements in that nytimes-article, right?


You just don't get it do you?

Even people that are considered upper class aren't able to afford tennis in these countries.
Maybe playing it casually, but not the kind of investment high level tennis requires.

Do you realize that the same applies for young players in Germany?
There are so many that can't afford competing on the international junior circuit because it is just way too expensive.
Do oyu know what all these things cost? What it costs to start competing in futures and challengers, travelling around?

That is for players from Germany, France, Sweden!

Do you realize how much less academical people in countries like Serbia earn (mostly, some take it all...)?

So when Djokovic says that his parents had to struggle to be able to pay his junior tennis, that certainly doesn't mean that they were a poor or middle class family; those could never afford bringing up an ATP player (if it's not the rare case of a super sponsor stepping in early); they can't even pay it in Germany!!

They were wealthy for serbian standards and it probably took them most of what they had to support their young prodigy.
And they are more than getting it back now.

Farenhajt
01-28-2008, 07:43 PM
His parents should realize they have seriously marred their 20-year-old sons reputation.

They only marred his/their reputation among die-hard Federer idolators who have fits over anyone having guts to openly challenge Federer.

And what's wrong with openly challenging Federer, even insulting him? He's, like, gonna find his "legendary" game again and destroy Novak? And Novak will sleep on the laurels and let Federer do that? :haha: (Cf. Wimbledon 2007 Finals for some true Federer domination :haha: )

trixtah
01-28-2008, 07:45 PM
so why does djokovic continue to point out that his whole family sacrificed a lot just to make him play tennis? that wouldn't make any sense, as it's not that hard to buy a racquet and just hit the court with friends. doesn't need to be the best racquet anyways.

*edit: ok, the link provided above this post explains his background. turns out i was right. :D

Making sacrifices doesn't always refer to money. Maybe read a bit about the country etc?

malica
01-28-2008, 07:48 PM
What's actually surprising is that so many good players are coming out of a country with no tennis tradition and poor facilities. The fact, though, is that nearly all of them were trained in the west - they were not trained in Serbian facilities, except Tipsarevic, who is unsurprisingly behind the rest but may catch up (?). As you know, Novak was in Germany, Ana in Switzerland, and Jelena in the USA - so their training conditions were actually similar to those of comparable German, Swiss, and American players. Same deal with Sharapova, who may have humble beginnings but was essentially trained in the USA.[/QUOTE]

I can agree with this almost 99%. However they all went to west countries after couple years of practicing in Serbia.
In this feature you can see this very often mention swimming pool. I do not think they had an easy start.

This is a long interview and featur (almost 10 minutes) but for Serbian facilities and condition for playing tennis you can watch part from 4:30 until the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7HABRYyxyw

Stensland
01-28-2008, 07:52 PM
@ komodo

first of all: cut out that arrogant attitude, thanks.

then.

serbia's been a war-torn country exactly at the time djokovic tried to make his move onto the tennis scene as a kid. so his background's not that comparable to other guys' background and i'm not sure if his parents made tons of money during war.

and to me it's not really about class money-wise, but about DEALING with it. so ok, maybe his parents were (comparably) rich. but coming from an eastern european country, i guess they didn't grow up rich, right? there was no middle-class the way "we" know it. this is why lots of newly-rich people once capitalism came up don't know how to deal with what comes with it. sure, money-wise the oligarchs in russia for example are all pretty classy people, but do they act like it, having orgies, dozens of private jets and whores on the cote-d'azur?

i guess what i'm trying to say is: there's a code of conduct in the western world for people with money. people who obey these rules, i consider classy (among others, of course). thing is: if you didn't grow up with it, there's quite a likelihood that you don't give an eff about them and just celebrate your wealth.

and djokovic's parents couldn't grow up wealthy as they didn't even have a free market back then.

Komodo
01-28-2008, 08:08 PM
You insisted on Djokovic not being from a wealthy serbian family.

I (and others) just informed you that an economically weak or middle-class serbian family doesn't produce an ATP player.

To clarify it for you, I added that you have to be wealthy by western european standards as well to play internationally on a lower scale (juniors, futures).
It costs a lot.

Therefore, insisting on that Djokovic was from a poor serbian family makes absolutely no sense and seems a bit naive. Unless, of course, someone really rich had sympathy for him at a young age and stepped in to pay everything.
But in that case, the whole poor boy coming up big story wouldn't really hold truth once again.

:)

juja_06
01-28-2008, 08:13 PM
Not having millions of dollars does not mean you dont have manners. Hard conditions in life makes people greedy and lose sight of a better picture, and usually they gauge their class from the money they worked hard for. But it does not happen that way, manners is cultivated from deep within and the riches you have is irrelevant. Ok bad luck that they had to sacrifice a lot for him to achieve what he has achieved so far, but he has better chances. there are a lot more people who are worse off in real life. JUST LEARN MANNERS AND YOU WILL BE MORE LIKED BY PEOPLE AROUND YOU. JUST PLAIN SIMPLE MANNERS AND KNOW WHEN TO SHUT UP.

Aloimeh
01-28-2008, 08:17 PM
@ komodo

first of all: cut out that arrogant attitude, thanks.

then.

serbia's been a war-torn country exactly at the time djokovic tried to make his move onto the tennis scene as a kid. so his background's not that comparable to other guys' background and i'm not sure if his parents made tons of money during war.

and to me it's not really about class money-wise, but about DEALING with it. so ok, maybe his parents were (comparably) rich. but coming from an eastern european country, i guess they didn't grow up rich, right? there was no middle-class the way "we" know it. this is why lots of newly-rich people once capitalism came up don't know how to deal with what comes with it. sure, money-wise the oligarchs in russia for example are all pretty classy people, but do they act like it, having orgies, dozens of private jets and whores on the cote-d'azur?

i guess what i'm trying to say is: there's a code of conduct in the western world for people with money. people who obey these rules, i consider classy (among others, of course). thing is: if you didn't grow up with it, there's quite a likelihood that you don't give an eff about them and just celebrate your wealth.

and djokovic's parents couldn't grow up wealthy as they didn't even have a free market back then.

Rrainier, I think you are mistaken if you think that just because a country is socioeconomically less well off people are going to behave in a socially unacceptable/despicable manner. It really has little to do with money and much more to do with manners taught by your parents. There are illiterate peasants who would behave with FAR, FAR more dignity than Djokovic's family. And it has nothing to do with the war. Perhaps they're just an uncivil family? I initially supported the family with the loud cheering and the letter-shirts, but at the moment I am disgusted by the head-nodding, the brash arrogant commentary coming from the son, the on-court pissiness, and the really tasteless comments from the mother.

In answer to your question, hedwick, Djokovic's family is just plain old primitive. It has nothing to do with the country they're from, with their "war experiences," or with their socioeconomic status. Had they gained a proper education, they would have at least learned that such displays of brazen arrogance are socially unacceptable (and they are in Serbia, just as in the rest of the world). But as they are uneducated and have a "soccer-mentality" regarding sports, and are arrogant themselves to the point of psychosis, we see here the ugly result.

Stensland
01-28-2008, 09:07 PM
You insisted on Djokovic not being from a wealthy serbian family.

I (and others) just informed you that an economically weak or middle-class serbian family doesn't produce an ATP player.

To clarify it for you, I added that you have to be wealthy by western european standards as well to play internationally on a lower scale (juniors, futures).
It costs a lot.

Therefore, insisting on that Djokovic was from a poor serbian family makes absolutely no sense and seems a bit naive. Unless, of course, someone really rich had sympathy for him at a young age and stepped in to pay everything.
But in that case, the whole poor boy coming up big story wouldn't really hold truth once again.

:)

well, you certainly do have points, no doubt. but on the other hand: sharapova pretty much proves you wrong concerning the "they have to be comparably rich"-thing.

Stensland
01-28-2008, 09:11 PM
Rrainier, I think you are mistaken if you think that just because a country is socioeconomically less well off people are going to behave in a socially unacceptable/despicable manner. It really has little to do with money and much more to do with manners taught by your parents. There are illiterate peasants who would behave with FAR, FAR more dignity than Djokovic's family. And it has nothing to do with the war. Perhaps they're just an uncivil family?


percentage-wise i think i'm right. sure, anyone with money from the west can be as classless as anyone from the east. but i'd guess that people who suddenly find lots of wealth within a comparably poor society are prone to act like pricks. there's a reason why russia's billionaires have defined a whole new customer group along with romanians, ukrainians or bulgarians after the soviet union collapsed. the lack of a middle class, the non-existence of a "bourgeoisie" if you will, has taken its toll on the society in eastern europe (including the balkans).

Komodo
01-28-2008, 09:27 PM
well, you certainly do have points, no doubt. but on the other hand: sharapova pretty much proves you wrong concerning the "they have to be comparably rich"-thing.

http://www.imgacademies.com/tennis/jump.sps

Okay, do you know what the Bolletieri academy costs?
Being a tennis fan from Germany I'm sure you know Tommy Haas' story, selling out his hypothetical future earnings to be financed by an investor group?

So please tell me the wonderful cinderella story of Maria Sharapova, I'd like to know!
Do you know how things were financed for her?
Do you know what kind of promises and agreements were made in her name when she was a little girl to allow her to pursue tennis?
I don't, but mostly things aren't given away for free, and if you say that she had no money, you should be aware of the yearly fee at NB:
"Full-time Price
Junior Full Time Boarding ('07-'08): $41,100.00
Junior Full Time Non-Boarding ('07-'08): $31,100.00"

Not exactly for free, is it?

Stensland
01-28-2008, 09:34 PM
Okay, do you know what the Bolletieri academy costs?
Being a tennis fan from Germany I'm sure you know Tommy Haas' story, selling out his hypothetical future earnings to be financed by an investor group?

So please tell me the wonderful cinderella story of Maria Sharapova, I'd like to know!
Do you know how things were financed for her?
Do you know what kind of promises and agreements were made in her name when she was a little girl to allow her to pursue tennis?
I don't, but mostly things aren't given away for free, and if you say that she had no money, you should be aware of the yearly fee at NB:
"Full-time Price
Junior Full Time Boarding ('07-'08): $41,100.00
Junior Full Time Non-Boarding ('07-'08): $31,100.00"

Not exactly for free, is it?

what's your point? everyone knows that sharapova came piss-poor to america and her dad worked his ass off to pay for bolletieri. i don't know how they financed all that, but apparently they did somehow (working 2 jobs or something). they didn't even take yuri's wife with them initially, she came like 3 years later.

of course i know tommy haas' story, but that's just one way to success. do you know schüttler's story? kiefer's? becker's?! it's just not true that you need tons of money to be able to compete. sure it's nice to have it and of course you need some at a certain stage of your development, some kinda kickstart of the actual career i gues. but lots of players have shown over the years that there tons of ways to climb the hill.

hiperborejac
01-28-2008, 10:36 PM
Djokovic's are not so wealthy as here people think. Maybe they are now ;) but in the time when Novak had to go to Pilic's academy they certainly didn't had enough. I heard somewhere that (except talent and hard work) it needs at about 500.000 euros to become pro (for trainings, traveling, equipment etc.), before its pies off. With their's pancake restaurant(I think it's more like fast food) they might have for normal life, but not for Nole's further progress. So I remember when Nole had 14-15 years after he won state championship his father was literally begging for sponsorships (and almost none in Serbia was interested), also read in some articles that they even mortgaged their house (course Nole didn't know that). Just all for their son success. And they so believed in him. And that's why they cheering with so much emotions.I don't see everything bad in that.

So for Novak's head-nodding I sow that for the first time in AO. He only showed how confident is, especially for crowd who was against him and which acted badly (Same did Tsonga in SF). As for his on-court pissiness, just he is still very young and can't control his emotions every time.

Yes, her mother's comments are little bit tasteless, but I'm sure it's cosed by some of previous Fed's statements (especially the one that their son is faker, which made him cry. After that Srdjan gave interview where he said that he still respect Federer as a player but no more as human). They are (and I mean only his dad and mom) mad about this and that's theirs way to defend son. They just love him so much and will be always subjective for their son.:wavey:

Aloimeh
01-28-2008, 10:51 PM
Djokovic's are not so wealthy as here people think. Maybe they are now ;) but in the time when Novak had to go to Pilic's academy they certainly didn't had enough. I heard somewhere that (except talent and hard work) it needs at about 500.000 euros to become pro (for trainings, traveling, equipment etc.), before its pies off. With their's pancake restaurant(I think it's more like fast food) they might have for normal life, but not for Nole's further progress. So I remember when Nole had 14-15 years after he won state championship his father was literally begging for sponsorships (and almost none in Serbia was interested), also read in some articles that they even mortgaged their house (course Nole didn't know that). Just all for their son success. And they so believed in him. And that's why they cheering with so much emotions.I don't see everything bad in that.

So for Novak's head-nodding I sow that for the first time in AO. He only showed how confident is, especially for crowd who was against him and which acted badly (Same did Tsonga in SF). As for his on-court pissiness, just he is still very young and can't control his emotions every time.

Yes, her mother's comments are little bit tasteless, but I'm sure it's cosed by some of previous Fed's statements (especially the one that their son is faker, which made him cry. After that Srdjan gave interview where he said that he still respect Federer as a player but no more as human). They are (and I mean only his dad and mom) mad about this and that's theirs way to defend son. They just love him so much and will be always subjective for their son.:wavey:

Yes, I get the vibe that that family basically hates Federer ever since those comments. I recall an article in which they said they could never forgive Federer for that.

How come your username refers to the Hyperboreans?

Never the Muse is absent
from their ways: lyres clash and flutes cry
and everywhere maiden choruses whirling.
Neither disease nor bitter old age is mixed
in their sacred blood; far from labor and battle they live.

-Pindar, Tenth Pythian Ode

Federerhingis
01-28-2008, 10:57 PM
I always thought that Nole's family was fine off economically- they ran their restaurant when he was young and I always thought he was fairly comfortable.

Here in the US- you can say that individual's actions lack class regardless of their socio-economic background. And I don't think that the majority of posters who find fault with some of Nole's actions and that of his family are doing it as a class - or national- issue, but in fact because they may not think that everything he and they do is wonderful.

I am from a middle class background although my family became more firmly entrenched in middle class through the years as when I was little there were harder times with money. Both of my parents come from working class backgrounds, and their parents came from I guess what would be considered poverty.



If I recall correctly- I think there has has been some friction in Argentinian tennis because some of the players (Gaudio for one) do not come from well-to-do backgrounds and did not always get the support they needed from the country's tennis federation.

Precisely, I don't think being classless has anything to do with where in the socio-economic strata you belong to. Some people have class others don't regardless of your economic background. Nevertheless, it can be assumed that if you are affluent and come from a well to do background that you should show it. Usually those that have access to a good education generally have or should have some class. It is usually the case that you are taught proper etiquette and comportment if you went to a good school or had a good formal upbringing.

Nonetheless, you can have a formal upbringing even if you come from less afluent settings. Consequently class has nothing to do with how much money you have.

Young Boss
01-28-2008, 11:04 PM
[QUOTE=Herdwick;6506612]Roger Federer comes from a comfortable background in Switzerland; Rafael Nadal from an affluent family in Majorca. Jo-Wilfried Tsonga is the son of a chemistry professor. By contrast, it sounds as though the Djokovics are not highly educated and have had to fight hard for every penny.QUOTE]

aren't you a snob if you come from wealthy background and look down on people who aren't as rich?
if novak's family came from fighting every penny , shouldn't that make them less snobbish?
maybe i'm not getting the argument?

lalaland
01-28-2008, 11:12 PM
I don't know if his family is wealthy or not. But I dare say, even if they are well off in Serbian doesn't mean putting him to Tennis School in Germany wasn't tough. Like if I make my salary in midwest, it will probably be really hard to put my kid to school in NYC. Besides, there's a lot more than just money that a family has to sacrifice to help a kid to get to a level of achievement as a professional tennis player. I don't think I've read anywhere that said the Djokovic family has to struggle for food in the old days. But that doesn't mean that helping Nole to build a career wasn't difficult. Also, I don't know much about the war, but thinking that it was during the war time these kids in Serbian were growing up and trying to build their careers, I just don't think it's easy no matter how rich their parents were at that time.

Anyhow, having money doesn't necessarily means that one has class. Look at Donald Trump.

hiperborejac
01-28-2008, 11:21 PM
Yes, I get the vibe that that family basically hates Federer ever since those comments. I recall an article in which they said they could never forgive Federer for that.

How come your username refers to the Hyperboreans?

Hiperborejac is Hyperborean in serbian :)

hiperborejac
01-28-2008, 11:26 PM
if novak's family came from fighting every penny , shouldn't that make them less snobbish?
maybe i'm not getting the argument?

I think it's all cause of Novak mom's statement: "King is dead. Long live the king!"

Allure
01-28-2008, 11:34 PM
Class had nothing do with how much money you have. It's the way you carry yourself and how you treat others. Paris Hilton is filthy rich but lacks class. Djoko parents are classless because of the way they acted during the final and what they said about Roger.

NinaNina19
01-28-2008, 11:45 PM
percentage-wise i think i'm right. sure, anyone with money from the west can be as classless as anyone from the east. but i'd guess that people who suddenly find lots of wealth within a comparably poor society are prone to act like pricks. there's a reason why russia's billionaires have defined a whole new customer group along with romanians, ukrainians or bulgarians after the soviet union collapsed. the lack of a middle class, the non-existence of a "bourgeoisie" if you will, has taken its toll on the society in eastern europe (including the balkans).
You don't know what you're talking about. My parents are from former Yugoslavia and they act with more class than the majority of Americans here. You seem to think that Eastern European people are primitive and uneducated and have no idea how to behave. This is only true for some people but for many people coming from Serbia it's not. Look at Ivanovic, do you see her family acting like a bunch of hooligans? In fact a lot of people in Serbia have much more class than people in other more "civilized" countries. My mom was amazed at how classless some of the behavior of the Americans was when she first came here. Some people are just born classless. Either way, I don't mind Djokovic's family. I think it's nice how they support him even though it sometimes gets out of hand. I only dislike his father who I think is very arrogant.

rolandg
01-28-2008, 11:50 PM
I don't think it is a snobbery thing. I just think generally people are a bit turned off by boorish behaviour.

I'm sure the way they behave has been affected by the sacrifices they made, but look at Jelena Jankovic and her family? I'm pretty sure they grew up in the same conditions, and her mother behaves with a lot of class in the supporters box. Look at Monica Seles. She's from the same country and I would imagine grew up under even harsher conditions, and her mother and father were pretty much the gold standard in how to behave.

Stensland
01-28-2008, 11:53 PM
You don't know what you're talking about. My parents are from former Yugoslavia and they act with more class than the majority of Americans here. You seem to think that Eastern European people are primitive and uneducated and have no idea how to behave. This is only true for some people but for many people coming from Serbia it's not. Look at Ivanovic, do you see her family acting like a bunch of hooligans? In fact a lot of people in Serbia have much more class than people in other more "civilized" countries. My mom was amazed at how classless some of the behavior of the Americans was when she first came here. Some people are just born classless.

i tried to put it very precautions in order to avoid reactions like yours. unfortunately english isn't my first language, so you'll just have to believe me (or not) that i don't have any problems with eastern europe as i can't expand on all of that fluently enough to make sense.

i'll stick to my posting though and i believe in what i tried to point out there.

Komodo
01-29-2008, 12:28 AM
No, "Eastern European"is too broad. Rrrainer has carefully chosen his Eastern European countries (and the choice is all but predictable, of course): he thinks Croatia is, metaphorically speaking, Garden of Eden compared to Serbia which is Mudland of Hell. (There was an earlier argument on the subject, and I think Russia is not among his favorites either.) But hey, he's just a shallow German (who's maybe just mourning the great mid-20th-century period of his country), so there's nothing new and nothing unexpected.

Where did he say that Croatia is better?
You serbs are too great at victimizing yourself.

I think the point he wanted to get across is that there is a new social layer of wealthy people in the post-communist countries, and maybe that this group needs to learn to deal with this wealth? That's my interpretation of what "Rrainer" wrote; maybe that is wrong, maybe right, I don't care honestly.

Why do you have to lash out at him for being german, and make a world war 2 reference? How pathetic can it get.
If you think that what he writes is wrong, please refer to the content of the post, NOT the nationality!!!!!!!!!!! (many exclamation marks so you get it).

Sadly enough, one thing is certain:
It doesn't matter which sports forum one reads, never are topics like war, nationalism and ethnicity discussed (where they don't belong) as quickly as when serbs are in the house.

I'm honestly tired of having to read how player x has this or that ethnicity or how a macedonian should know that their churches aren't their cultural inheritage or a lot of much worse nationalistic bullshit that doesn't belong on a sports discussion board.

That of course doesn't mean that every serb acts like this, but it is something you alas see very frequently.

Aloimeh
01-29-2008, 12:36 AM
Where did he say that Croatia is better?
You serbs are too great at victimizing yourself.

I think the point he wanted to get across is that there is a new social layer of wealthy people in the post-communist countries, and maybe that this group needs to learn to deal with this wealth? That's my interpretation of what "Rrainer" wrote; maybe that is wrong, maybe right, I don't care honestly.

Why do you have to lash out at him for being german, and make a world war 2 reference? How pathetic can it get.
If you think that what he writes is wrong, please refer to the content of the post, NOT the nationality!!!!!!!!!!! (many exclamation marks so you get it).

Sadly enough, one thing is certain:
It doesn't matter which sports forum one reads, never are topics like war, nationalism and ethnicity discussed (where they don't belong) as quickly as when serbs are in the house.

I'm honestly tired of having to read how player x has this or that ethnicity or how a macedonian should know that their churches aren't their cultural inheritage or a lot of much worse nationalistic bullshit that doesn't belong on a sports discussion board.

That of course doesn't mean that every serb acts like this, but it is something you alas see very frequently.

The nouveau riche comment has some validity, but from reading this and other forums, one somehow gets the impression that it's only eastern Europeans who are badly behaved at sporting events and tennis specifically, when this isn't quite true. I thought McEnroe had some pretty bad behavior and he was American - I don't know about his social status, though.

Your other comments may be true, but I also don't see so many snide and snotty comments on ethnic groups other than Serbs on sports forums. And they are not typically provoked - in fact, they're usually spontaneous.

Farenhajt
01-29-2008, 12:39 AM
...and maybe that this group needs to learn to deal with this wealth?

No group needs to "learn how to deal with its wealth". The only matter is how pseudo-classy bourgeios Westerners WISH TO IMPOSE so called "code of conduct", "traditional behaviour" and "manners" to the people they've always (and don't you get smart on me about this one) regarded as lowly Easterners. Of course, at the beginning of the 21st century, some forms of displaying that disdain are prohibited, but anyhoo it can't be bottled down, so it must be vented out through discussing "class". But "class" arrogance is going down - slowly but surely.

As for Rrrainer himself, he's just a desperate Djokohater who's trying to lift his petty personal interest to a degree of general idea. No go.

Komodo
01-29-2008, 12:46 AM
No, "Eastern European" is too broad. Rrrainer has carefully chosen his Eastern European countries (and the choice is all but predictable, of course): he thinks Croatia is, metaphorically speaking, Garden of Eden compared to Serbia which is Mudland of Hell. (There was an earlier argument on the subject, and I think Russia is not among his favorites either.) But hey, he's just a shallow German (who's maybe just mourning the great mid-20th-century period of his country), so there's nothing new and nothing unexpected.

You can keep babbling if you want to. You exposed what kind of a person you are with this one, even though you try to hold back.

But who cares, it's just an internet forum. Why am I wasting my time?
You have big issues though, towards those "WESTERNERS!!", as you like to put it.

Byebye sweetie.

Svetlana.
01-29-2008, 12:48 AM
Many people from the "Western" block still have the Cold War mentality. It's ok for Roddick to be classless, but very unacceptable for Eastern Europeans. ;)

Farenhajt
01-29-2008, 12:52 AM
Many people from the "Western" block still have the Cold War mentality. It's ok for Roddick to be classless, but very unacceptable for Eastern Europeans. ;)

Great point! :)

Goodrep for you :)

Komodo
01-29-2008, 12:59 AM
Many people from the "Western" block still have the Cold War mentality. It's ok for Roddick to be classless, but very unacceptable for Eastern Europeans. ;)


Absolutely worthless point!
Badre....eehm, got to snap out of the scheme of the previous poster!
;)

It is a really bad point because it is not ok for Roddick, just look at the amount of criticism he gets constantly from just about everybody but a few hardcore fans who shut their eyes, just like many serbs regarding Nole who are blinded by their nationalism.

I honestlydon't know who I'll be cheering for in the next Nole-Roddick matchup.

Right now Roddick, as the other big mouth has been slapped around often enough and the recent one needs to learn a lesson or two. :angel:

gulzhan
01-29-2008, 01:00 AM
Great point! :)

Goodrep for you :)

same here :lol:

bingo with roddick :haha:

remember face of connors when youzhny saved 3 mps in semi 2006? ;) now, he shouted, now!!!!!!! real yuri sharapov's or djoko mom's behavior :p

gulzhan
01-29-2008, 01:03 AM
Absolutely worthless point!
Badre....eehm, got to snap out of the scheme of the previous poster!
;)

It is a really bad point because it is not ok for Roddick, just look at the amount of criticism he gets constantly from just about everybody but a few hardcore fans who shut their eyes, just like many serbs regarding Nole who are blinded by their nationalism.

I honestlydon't know who I'll be cheering for in the next Nole-Roddick matchup.

Right now Roddick, as the other big mouth has been slapped around often enough and the recent one needs to learn a lesson or two. :angel:

very good point indeed, because no one even thought that such a behavior was caused by hardship of his youth or lack of money or intention to prove something or having "new money" etc... no one even thought that mcenroy's emotional behavior was caused by him growing up in a troubled country too :lol:

Aloimeh
01-29-2008, 01:03 AM
Absolutely worthless point!
Badre....eehm, got to snap out of the scheme of the previous poster!
;)

It is a really bad point because it is not ok for Roddick, just look at the amount of criticism he gets constantly from just about everybody but a few hardcore fans who shut their eyes, just like many serbs regarding Nole who are blinded by their nationalism.

I honestlydon't know who I'll be cheering for in the next Nole-Roddick matchup.

Right now Roddick, as the other big mouth has been slapped around often enough and the recent one needs to learn a lesson or two. :angel:

Yes, but when Roddick behaved badly did everyone start making comments on how this is just an indication of Western arrogance and colonial mentality (or some such stupid construction), and were Americans who continue to support Roddick derided as blind nationalists? Just asking.

Komodo
01-29-2008, 01:10 AM
very good point indeed, because no one even thought that such a behavior was caused by hardship of his youth or lack of money or intention to prove something or having "new money" etc... no one even thought that mcenroy's emotional behavior was caused by him growing up in a troubled country too :lol:

I haven't stated anything even remotely close to that, so don't confront me with such bullshit please.

Therefore, yes, it remains a bad point.
A lot of people don't like Roddick & soon a lot of people won't like Nole, and why? Because telling the world how great you are doesn't make people like you.
Modesty gets the crowd on your side.
Should Nole care about that? As a tennis player, not really; he is succesful anyway. But he shouldn't be surprised when the crowds aren't on his side like he pathetically enough had to point out after both the semis and and final.
It showed how much that hurt his ego and how he craved to come up as the youngster who is loved by everybody.

Maybe now, rejected and hurt, he will turn to the Dark Side and come back evil and much stronger? :):):):):)

gulzhan
01-29-2008, 01:15 AM
do you hear what i am saying or you don't want to? :shrug:

all i am saying is-- if roddick or connors or mcenroy is emotional, then people don't like it and say "bad character"...

if djoko's family or sharapova's father are emotional, people say-- well, that's because they are from eastern europe and don't know how to behave in the society :o

that's why the post above deserved my good rep ;)

Komodo
01-29-2008, 01:22 AM
Oh really?
"People say....."
Who are "people"? Is it the majority or just a selected few that you'd like to focus on to fit the victimized view that you have preset?

I don't think too many people have written that Djokovic's behaviour is mainly due to his nationality/being from Eastern Europe?!

It just seems to me that you read one stupid post, interprete it the way you want and then make a vast, incorrect generalization.

RagingLamb
01-29-2008, 01:24 AM
"I sprinkle diamonds on my cereal. It makes my doodoo twinkle" - Dave Chapelle.

Sorry, for some reason this thread reminded me of that.

As for class. I know some people who barely have anything and are the classiest people I've met. I also know people who drive Ferraris but aren't worth shit otherwise.

Class doesn't come from money.

gulzhan
01-29-2008, 01:38 AM
Oh really?
"People say....."
Who are "people"? Is it the majority or just a selected few that you'd like to focus on to fit the victimized view that you have preset?

I don't think too many people have written that Djokovic's behaviour is mainly due to his nationality/being from Eastern Europe?!

It just seems to me that you read one stupid post, interprete it the way you want and then make a vast, incorrect generalization.

:eek: isn't this whole thread about this?

i am from soviet union, trust me, western people say :lol:

gulzhan
01-29-2008, 01:42 AM
"I sprinkle diamonds on my cereal. It makes my doodoo twinkle" - Dave Chapelle.

Sorry, for some reason this thread reminded me of that.

As for class. I know some people who barely have anything and are the classiest people I've met. I also know people who drive Ferraris but aren't worth shit otherwise.

Class doesn't come from money.

i think everyone agreed to that :shrug: the guy who started the thread said that while fed, nadal and tsonga have class because they come from educated families and developed countries :p djoko maybe disliked by many because he and his family are not classy--- i.e. mmmh... not well raised (?) not tought to behave (?) mmmh... lived in a different society where emotional openess was not condemned but rather encouraged (?) :unsure:

so, no dispute over money as i understood... mostly it's about culture

Action Jackson
01-29-2008, 01:46 AM
Money is irrelevant in how people behave, they learn that from the people around them they interact with and their own experiences.

Good to see the nationalistic idiots out in full force in here. As for Djokovic his family aren't poor, but they are far from wealthy before Nole made it big.

_§_
01-29-2008, 01:50 AM
You don't know what you're talking about. My parents are from former Yugoslavia and they act with more class than the majority of Americans here. You seem to think that Eastern European people are primitive and uneducated and have no idea how to behave. This is only true for some people but for many people coming from Serbia it's not. Look at Ivanovic, do you see her family acting like a bunch of hooligans? In fact a lot of people in Serbia have much more class than people in other more "civilized" countries. My mom was amazed at how classless some of the behavior of the Americans was when she first came here. Some people are just born classless. Either way, I don't mind Djokovic's family. I think it's nice how they support him even though it sometimes gets out of hand. I only dislike his father who I think is very arrogant.

Ivanovic's parents live in Melbourne Australia :)

Action Jackson
01-29-2008, 01:57 AM
Ivanovic's parents live in Melbourne Australia :)

Wrong, it's relations that live in Melbourne and not the parents.

hiperborejac
01-29-2008, 01:59 AM
Novak's parents behaving has nothing to do with their money as many of you are claiming: "They were poor, but now they are wealthy and don't know to behave.". They behavior is pure emotion and their mentality. They are just happy when Novak gets point and show that in more extreme way then other pro's families. For me it's just normal. So can anyone tell me why they shouldn't cheer the same way like other crowd?

Farenhajt
01-29-2008, 02:06 AM
So can anyone tell me why they shouldn't cheer the same way like other crowd?

Because they are "ugly f*cking Easterners/Balkaners, whose ugly f*cking faces, along with the ugly f*cking face of their offspring, are gonna be around for a long time, but we're oh too 'classy' and 'bourgeois' and 'polite' and 'code-of-conduct savvy' to admit that honestly".

But hey, no one has ever expected anything less than total hipocrisy from such people, so it's all OK. We'll survive - it THEY who are gonna develop Posttraumatic Stress Disorder ;)

Tiklish
01-29-2008, 02:27 AM
If I, or those I know, say someone has no class, they aren't talking about lack of wealth or "social status", they're talking about lack of manners, behaving badly, disrespectfully, stuff like that. I have never had any idea how much money Djokovic had growing up. I dislike him because he behaves like a jerk on court, and the comments by his parents make me root against him even more. Because not only do I not want HIM to win, I don't want THEM to have the pleasure of him winning either.

For what it's worth, I grew up in a household where my mom was raising me and my sister alone, and we could barely make ends meet. My husband and I currently earn enough to keep a small apartment roof over our heads, utilities, cable, and internet running, and food on the table. Nothing more.

vidanhv
01-29-2008, 02:48 AM
I don't think it has anything to do with class, but with the perception of tennis as a sport. I already said this in some of the threads. You don't have to be aristocrat to perceive tennis as a noble sport and vice versa. I'm coming from an aristocratic family, and yet I look at tennis as at any other sport. I don't mind what Nole will do or say or how his parents behave (I actually adored McEnroe ;). Nobility did not stay frozen while the time passed by. Having a bit more money, some tradition and fine education doesn't mean that you must behave as there are no emotions left in you, or at least to be annoyed if there is somebody who doesn't behave like you. Its true that Nole's parents are not very eloquent when it comes to the press statements, but they will learn to hide their emotions and be more careful when speaking about other players. On the court, may they do what they want, as long as they do it between the points.

NinaNina19
01-29-2008, 03:03 AM
I honestly don't see why people hate Novak's family so much. I know his father is arrogant but I think the rest of his family seems nice. I like how they cheer for me and he obviously benefits a lot from their support.

Svetlana.
01-29-2008, 03:10 AM
I honestly don't see why people hate Novak's family so much. I know his father is arrogant but I think the rest of his family seems nice. I like how they cheer for me and he obviously benefits a lot from their support.

I think they just crossed the fine line... it's ok to be supportive and cheer for your son, but at the same time it's not ok to ask opponent's fans to shut up and to disrespect the current #1.

Magus13
01-29-2008, 03:21 AM
Screw all of you at MTF. I'm better than all you assholes. I'm the best poster on this board , have the most wit and am a superior athlete. By the way I grew up relatively poor in Queens New York, so I don't know the propper way to act to people due to my economic disadvantages.

Allure
01-29-2008, 03:22 AM
I think they just crossed the fine line... it's ok to be supportive and cheer for your son, but at the same time it's not ok to ask opponent's fans to shut up and to disrespect the former #1.

:retard:

Svetlana.
01-29-2008, 03:24 AM
:retard:

Current, of course current!!!!

:)

darnyelb
01-29-2008, 04:31 AM
Yeah, his parents seem extremely annoying, but based on their actions at Novak's matches I don't see anything that they're doing that's actually wrong. Must've missed the press comments lol.

MissMelly2U
01-29-2008, 04:52 AM
Many people from the "Western" block still have the Cold War mentality. It's ok for Roddick to be classless, but very unacceptable for Eastern Europeans. ;)

In what world? I'm an American and I was much more critical of Roddick than of the Djokovics. Please people, quit with the asinine generalizations.

Farenhajt
01-29-2008, 05:29 AM
In what world? I'm an American and I was much more critical of Roddick than of the Djokovics. Please people, quit with the asinine generalizations.

Perhaps you're living in a bubble? Perhaps you just don't care? And it's very unhealthy to measure the world by your own actions and beliefs.

(Unfortunately, there's no sign of anything resembling a decent tennis player coming from Iraq, Iran or Saudi Arabia. Now THAT would be an interesting situation for MTF idiots, particularly those overseas.)

Allure
01-29-2008, 05:31 AM
When Roddick acts like a prat, I see some posters say ''Typical ugly American.''

Hagar
01-29-2008, 09:10 AM
It's not because you are poor in money, that you should be poor in manners...

Castafiore
01-29-2008, 09:31 AM
Many people from the "Western" block still have the Cold War mentality. It's ok for Roddick to be classless, but very unacceptable for Eastern Europeans. ;)
I think that you've read a different MTF than I have.

1. Roddick has received his share of bashing and criticism for his behaviour on court INCLUDING the references to his US background with all sorts of generalisations. Likewise with players coming from France, Argentina, Spain, Germany,...

2. Trying to bring the cold war mentality into this serves us what exactly? I hate to bring up Safin but the man comes from Russia and the main "rivalry" (just to use that word) in that cold war was the US vs USSR. Why doesn't this "cold war mentality" of the "Western" block vs Eastern Europeans exist against him?

Bringing nationality into his, both from his fans, showing Serbian pride, or from his haters, bashing an entire group of people based on a flag, is :retard: as far as I am concerned.


I mean, I can understand that it's hard to read the bashing and some people feel the need to understand it and I fully accept that it's not really a great idea to just leave MTF to the haters either but as a fan of a couple of the most disliked players in the ATP (and not just from the current generations of players, see my avatar): I would not try to rationalise the hatred too much.

my0118
01-29-2008, 10:29 AM
It's not about their backgrounds, it's just simply related to their behaviour.
I don't know, if I were one of them, and did exactly what they did, after that, I would be so shamful no matter where I belong to. It's about demeanor as a person.

Stensland
01-29-2008, 11:49 AM
No, "Eastern European" is too broad. Rrrainer has carefully chosen his Eastern European countries (and the choice is all but predictable, of course): he thinks Croatia is, metaphorically speaking, Garden of Eden compared to Serbia which is Mudland of Hell.


good lord, i thought i clarified that last time: i have no clue about the balkan war, dammit! i was a baby back then and actually i still don't give that much of an EFF about what happened there as i couldn't care less. it didn't affect my life whatsoever. so how come you think i'd judge countries who to me look quite the same superficially? serbia, croatia, macedonia, this, that, potaytoe, potaatoe. i had a nice conversation with aloimeh about this and checked the web regarding the war, which helped me out a bit (though i'm still not really into it).

i have no problem with tipsarevic for example - how would that fit into your scheme for example?


(There was an earlier argument on the subject, and I think Russia is not among his favorites either.) But hey, he's just a shallow German (who's maybe just mourning the great mid-20th-century period of his country), so there's nothing new and nothing unexpected.

i'm gonna report that.

Miss Runcible
01-29-2008, 11:52 AM
Hello, I'm new here - well, I suppose not entirely 'new' as I've lurked since 2004 and have even joined a couple of times. (I think. Forgot my login details, though. I'll probably forget these too, so if you never see me again, it was nice meeting you all.) I find this whole furore quite interesting - but before I say anything, I hasten to add I'm not Serbian... (I am a Djokovic fan though. Ahem.)

I do think this is a class thing, but not in the way that people seem automatically to expect. As the OP pointed out, 'class' has never been a question of money. Since time immemorial it's not the poor and humble who have been sneered at for lacking class, but the vulgar upstarts. 'Who do they think they are': that's the question, isn't it? It's not that the Djokovic family are poor and uneducated and despised for it. I think the problem is that they're neither poor enough, nor middle-class enough, nor humble enough, nor (perhaps strangely) arrogant enough. If they were dirt poor and made a great show of their humility and lack of sophistication, many a fist-pump would be forgiven. (Who knows, even their shirts might make people go 'awwww'.) If they were upper-class and more sophisticated in their bad behaviour, subtly arrogant and disdainful, people would be irritated but in a way that kind of behaviour would be a matter of course. You can be arrogant as long as you have a perceived right to that arrogance. The problem with the Djokovic family is that they're obviously 'lower class' in many people's eyes, but too loud, too sure of their right to be where they are, too difficult to patronise.

I'm not saying they're blameless, far from it - the father annoys me too. (Though I must admit I see no harm in the mother. From what I've seen she seems highly strung, excitable and nervous: the kind of person who can be made to blurt out silly things to the press. And I definitely see no harm at all in the boys.) But annoyance is one thing. There's no way they'd get up people's noses to this degree if there weren't more to it. The reaction seems so disproportionate. They're not my in-laws or yours, we don't have to live with them; and unless you're literally looking for evidence of crassness - taping Novak's matches so you can gleefully rewind and count the number of times they stood up to cheer - you only get occasional five-second glimpses of these people in the stands. Isn't it enough to roll your eyes at their antics? People seem to feel that these upstarts must be brought down a peg or two, must be humbled, must be made to see their proper station in life. (Or, in the name of 'karma', even meet with a serious accident and break their limbs. Geesh. Vindictive much?)

And I think it's absurd to expect Novak to cut the aprong strings now and dissociate himself from his family. Whether or not he agrees with their behaviour, he obviously loves them. If anything, in his shoes I'd probably draw even closer to my parents and feel protective of them. I can see and criticise my own parents' flaws, but hell, if other people start badmouthing them, I won't sit back and listen meekly.

Herdwick
01-29-2008, 12:13 PM
Hello, I'm new here - well, I suppose not entirely 'new' as I've lurked since 2004 and have even joined a couple of times. (I think. Forgot my login details, though. I'll probably forget these too, so if you never see me again, it was nice meeting you all.) I find this whole furore quite interesting - but before I say anything, I hasten to add I'm not Serbian... (I am a Djokovic fan though. Ahem.)

I do think this is a class thing, but not in the way that people seem automatically to expect. As the OP pointed out, 'class' has never been a question of money. Since time immemorial it's not the poor and humble who have been sneered at for lacking class, but the vulgar upstarts. 'Who do they think they are': that's the question, isn't it? It's not that the Djokovic family are poor and uneducated and despised for it. I think the problem is that they're neither poor enough, nor middle-class enough, nor humble enough, nor (perhaps strangely) arrogant enough. If they were dirt poor and made a great show of their humility and lack of sophistication, many a fist-pump would be forgiven. (Who knows, even their shirts might make people go 'awwww'.) If they were upper-class and more sophisticated in their bad behaviour, subtly arrogant and disdainful, people would be irritated but in a way that kind of behaviour would be a matter of course. You can be arrogant as long as you have a perceived right to that arrogance. The problem with the Djokovic family is that they're obviously 'lower class' in many people's eyes, but too loud, too sure of their right to be where they are, too difficult to patronise.

I'm not saying they're blameless, far from it - the father annoys me too. (Though I must admit I see no harm in the mother. From what I've seen she seems highly strung, excitable and nervous: the kind of person who can be made to blurt out silly things to the press. And I definitely see no harm at all in the boys.) But annoyance is one thing. There's no way they'd get up people's noses to this degree if there weren't more to it. The reaction seems so disproportionate. They're not my in-laws or yours, we don't have to live with them; and unless you're literally looking for evidence of crassness - taping Novak's matches so you can gleefully rewind and count the number of times they stood up to cheer - you only get occasional five-second glimpses of these people in the stands. Isn't it enough to roll your eyes at their antics? People seem to feel that these upstarts must be brought down a peg or two, must be humbled, must be made to see their proper station in life. (Or, in the name of 'karma', even meet with a serious accident and break their limbs. Geesh. Vindictive much?)

And I think it's absurd to expect Novak to cut the apron strings now and dissociate himself from his family. Whether or not he agrees with their behaviour, he obviously loves them. If anything, in his shoes I'd probably draw even closer to my parents and feel protective of them. I can see and criticise my own parents' flaws, but hell, if other people start badmouthing them, I won't sit back and listen meekly.

Nicely put Miss Runcible and a warm welcome - a sane and articulate poster is always appreciated. I think you're one of the few who've picked up on what I think I was originally driving at when I started this thread (last night and admittedly after a couple of glasses of wine).

jasmin
01-29-2008, 12:40 PM
It's not because you are poor in money, that you should be poor in manners...

Exactly...and as we know there a rich people are warm and humble.
Whatever status Djokovic and his parents are have nothing (imo) to do with their behavior. What they displayed is who they are rich or poor.

cmurray
01-29-2008, 01:19 PM
This thread is really something.

First of all, how many people even KNOW djokovic's background, much less care about it? Half the people in this THREAD don't even know for sure what the economic background of his family is - and they're interested parties! The first several pages are filled with "I thought he was fairly well off..." and "I though his parents had to scrape by..."

Secondly, there is an assumptive factor in saying "People don't like Djokovic and his family because they act like they are poor". Of course, that isn't the way the original poster phrased the statement... but it all boils down to the same thing, does it not? The assumption is that bad behavior is a condition of those who have no money. Not only is this an incorrect assumption, it is one filled with the very snobbery that the OP accused others of having. Bad behavior stems, not from one's economic status, but from thinking oneself more important than everyone else and thereby exempt from attempts at politeness.

I am vastly amused that anyone would think that Djokovic could ONLY be disliked because he is deemed a working class player. The fact that he takes strategically placed medical time-outs and bathroom breaks in the middle of his matches must have NOTHING to do with it. It couldn't POSSIBLY be that there are posters on this board who don't align themselves with a "win at any cost" attitude. No. It simply MUST be his economic status.

Bascule
01-29-2008, 01:28 PM
Hello, I'm new here - well, I suppose not entirely 'new' as I've lurked since 2004 and have even joined a couple of times. (I think. Forgot my login details, though. I'll probably forget these too, so if you never see me again, it was nice meeting you all.) I find this whole furore quite interesting - but before I say anything, I hasten to add I'm not Serbian... (I am a Djokovic fan though. Ahem.)

I do think this is a class thing, but not in the way that people seem automatically to expect. As the OP pointed out, 'class' has never been a question of money. Since time immemorial it's not the poor and humble who have been sneered at for lacking class, but the vulgar upstarts. 'Who do they think they are': that's the question, isn't it? It's not that the Djokovic family are poor and uneducated and despised for it. I think the problem is that they're neither poor enough, nor middle-class enough, nor humble enough, nor (perhaps strangely) arrogant enough. If they were dirt poor and made a great show of their humility and lack of sophistication, many a fist-pump would be forgiven. (Who knows, even their shirts might make people go 'awwww'.) If they were upper-class and more sophisticated in their bad behaviour, subtly arrogant and disdainful, people would be irritated but in a way that kind of behaviour would be a matter of course. You can be arrogant as long as you have a perceived right to that arrogance. The problem with the Djokovic family is that they're obviously 'lower class' in many people's eyes, but too loud, too sure of their right to be where they are, too difficult to patronise.

I'm not saying they're blameless, far from it - the father annoys me too. (Though I must admit I see no harm in the mother. From what I've seen she seems highly strung, excitable and nervous: the kind of person who can be made to blurt out silly things to the press. And I definitely see no harm at all in the boys.) But annoyance is one thing. There's no way they'd get up people's noses to this degree if there weren't more to it. The reaction seems so disproportionate. They're not my in-laws or yours, we don't have to live with them; and unless you're literally looking for evidence of crassness - taping Novak's matches so you can gleefully rewind and count the number of times they stood up to cheer - you only get occasional five-second glimpses of these people in the stands. Isn't it enough to roll your eyes at their antics? People seem to feel that these upstarts must be brought down a peg or two, must be humbled, must be made to see their proper station in life. (Or, in the name of 'karma', even meet with a serious accident and break their limbs. Geesh. Vindictive much?)

And I think it's absurd to expect Novak to cut the aprong strings now and dissociate himself from his family. Whether or not he agrees with their behaviour, he obviously loves them. If anything, in his shoes I'd probably draw even closer to my parents and feel protective of them. I can see and criticise my own parents' flaws, but hell, if other people start badmouthing them, I won't sit back and listen meekly.

Great post!

thrust
01-29-2008, 02:02 PM
In what world? I'm an American and I was much more critical of Roddick than of the Djokovics. Please people, quit with the asinine generalizations.

I think that the announcers, Carillo and McEnroe, were doing what they could to make an issue out of nothing concerning Nole and his family. McEnroe, I think, made an issue of Nole saying he was proud after defeating Roger earlier. Who would^t be proud after beating, according to the McEnroe^s, the best tennis player of all time? Nole was not being egotistical, just very happy and proud of himself. Proud may not have been the proper word for some, but then, English is not Nole^s first language. Give the kid a break!

jasmin
01-29-2008, 02:07 PM
I think McEnroe and Nole may be somewhat similar in how they are and I think this is why McEnroe likes Nole.

Bobby
01-29-2008, 03:03 PM
Because they are "ugly f*cking Easterners/Balkaners, whose ugly f*cking faces, along with the ugly f*cking face of their offspring, are gonna be around for a long time, but we're oh too 'classy' and 'bourgeois' and 'polite' and 'code-of-conduct savvy' to admit that honestly".

But hey, no one has ever expected anything less than total hipocrisy from such people, so it's all OK. We'll survive - it THEY who are gonna develop Posttraumatic Stress Disorder ;)

You must be suffering from a very low self esteem. It seems to me that you are the one who keeps bringing up the nationality issue, not those who happen to live in the western countries. You are the one who insults people from other countries.

Here's a hint. Try enjoying the game of tennis and do not just focus on topics that concern Djokovic! There are a lot of interesting tournaments coming! Yeah baby!

xelena
01-29-2008, 03:33 PM
this is the most ridiculous thread, ever ! cant get any dumber than this ! good work , guys :cool:


first of all: Novak comes from a middle class family . not wealthy not poor ,just plain => middle class.

for ex.
there's this kid, tennis prodigy Jan Silva whose father was a basketball player and his mum tennis player from finland (she's a coach know). So this kid, is training at the moment in paris in this famous school/acadamy and cause they couldnt afford paying for boarding and the charges (although they come from poor florida) , the school and tennis france is paying/investing in them.
So, if this kid becomes a champ , and his family + brothers and sisters are cheering for him in a sporty manner from the box , they will look pretty cool in your eyes and you will never EVER think
"oh look at these poor americans..they're cheering , jumping so freely, when they should be wearing prada sunglasses and play frozen or just stay at home, cause that's classy"

but in fact, you'd assume that they were rich , that they payed expensive school for their kid unlike those poor east europeans.

This thread just shows how the middle class in europe and usa is lobotomised , cause they're the first ones here who are in the quest of stigmatising "the other middle class" and come up with revolutionary conclusions like " novak's parents and brothers are cheering a lot from their box that's bad manners that's poor" .

hiperborejac
01-29-2008, 03:43 PM
It seems that definition of "poor class" is "rich with emotions" :scratch:

Farenhajt
01-29-2008, 03:47 PM
You must be suffering from a very low self esteem. It seems to me that you are the one who keeps bringing up the nationality issue, not those who happen to live in the western countries. You are the one who insults people from other countries.

Here's a hint. Try enjoying the game of tennis and do not just focus on topics that concern Djokovic! There are a lot of interesting tournaments coming! Yeah baby!

Ah, a Finn has spoken! Was about time...

pick241
01-29-2008, 03:57 PM
This thread has become so pointless.
Who cares how much money they had before?
Its 2008, and they're earning millions now, and class is just a matter of opinion and perspective of each individual.
That's all there is to it.

bokehlicious
01-29-2008, 04:05 PM
You must be suffering from a very low self esteem. It seems to me that you are the one who keeps bringing up the nationality issue, not those who happen to live in the western countries. You are the one who insults people from other countries.

Here's a hint. Try enjoying the game of tennis and do not just focus on topics that concern Djokovic! There are a lot of interesting tournaments coming! Yeah baby!

Nice post, so true :hatoff:

Miss Runcible
01-29-2008, 04:08 PM
Thanks Herdwick! :) It's funny - it feels like I know most of you quite well already, and I need to remind myself you don't know me at all. Ah, the metaphysical dangers of lurking.

First of all, how many people even KNOW djokovic's background, much less care about it? Half the people in this THREAD don't even know for sure what the economic background of his family is - and they're interested parties! The first several pages are filled with "I thought he was fairly well off..." and "I though his parents had to scrape by..."

cmurray, I've been wondering about that too. I used to hear and read that they owned a pizzeria - only one - near a ski resort (which doesn't necessarily translate to affluence, by the way: unless you manage an entire chain of restaurants, the business is pretty hard and risky work, whatever the country). Could be that they owned just one to begin with, but have expanded the business now that they have more money to invest? Perhaps they even bought the ski resort itself. Who knows.

Secondly, there is an assumptive factor in saying "People don't like Djokovic and his family because they act like they are poor". Of course, that isn't the way the original poster phrased the statement... but it all boils down to the same thing, does it not? The assumption is that bad behavior is a condition of those who have no money.

Well, I don't think it does, as Herdwick specifically said that it's not a matter of money, as such. And even though I'm a newbie, I've been lurking long enough to know that Djokovic has been polarising fans and haters since early 2006, and that has nothing to do with his family. But I do think the tone in the recent threads about the Djokovic family (as opposed to Novak himself) has been a bit weird, and Herdwick's interpretation seemed to make a lot of sense. I don't think the annoyance sprang from snobbery but snobbery does seem to be feeding the flames - the main complaint is not that the parents are nasty people doing nasty things, but that they're classless, vulgar, over the top, grasping, noisy, blustering, have deplorable manners, commit social faux pas, say stupid things, wear embarrassing shirts...

Dunno. I've been watching tennis since I was a little girl and I've been annoyed by many things over the years. But I like to reserve my contempt for people whose actions are truly contemptible and horrible. Parents being overenthusiastic about their son's success doesn't really cross over to that territory. ;)

(However, if I ever see Dijana kick Roger's dog, I'll take back what I said about seeing no harm in her.)

Bobby
01-29-2008, 04:10 PM
Ah, a Finn has spoken! Was about time...

Interesting. Do you have a problem with the Finns as well?

amierin
01-29-2008, 04:28 PM
I am vastly amused that anyone would think that Djokovic could ONLY be disliked because he is deemed a working class player. The fact that he takes strategically placed medical time-outs and bathroom breaks in the middle of his matches must have NOTHING to do with it. It couldn't POSSIBLY be that there are posters on this board who don't align themselves with a "win at any cost" attitude. No. It simply MUST be his economic status.


Cmurray I think that anyone who was watching the final, if they're honest, can say that never, not in DC, a Slam, or anywhere else, has a players family called security because 1 - they didn't like that fans were nearby that were not cheering for their relation or 2- when it appeared that the fans were in the right seats had a security detail sitting next to them. Most families sit in their allotted seats and put up with whatever happens. They're usually to focused on what is happening on the court to be worried about fans. I think this is the reason the reaction has been so sharp. I haven't seen a reaction like this towards a player's family ever but I guess there's a first time for everything.

My personal distaste for Novak goes back to Estoril last year when he apparently was in need of medical attention in the second set then ran around the court like a gazelle in the third.

All of this talk of social class and class is a diversion IMO.
All this Roddick and McEnroe bashing is a diversion. Both may have shown their ass on the court but I don't remember the junior TD having to sit on the steps and guard their families from fans who happened to be cheerng against their son.
Yuri Sharapov make be the tennis father from hell but he doesn't get into fights with fans.

_sanja_
01-29-2008, 07:33 PM
đoković`s has to be quite rich...cos as some of u said before if u are well off in Serbia that doesnt mean nothing, u are still poor in comparisson with other european countries. so in serbia if u have enough money to pay your son all the tennis practices abroad beside having also 2 young children at home that is something... but ofcourse they want payback now, in a big style ;) thats normal...

pistolmarat
01-29-2008, 09:10 PM
I suppose, that Nole's parents were quite well situated - middle class even back in the days of Yugoslavia, as they run a business in a touristic location. :shrug: Of course they made great effort in order to pay for Nole's stay in Pilic's academy. Otherwise, Serbia was/is not a rich country, so prolly for most people in UK they seem to have a low-class background. I guess
it doesn't really matter, so who cares? Personally,I'm still amazed&happy with Novak's tennis form in Melbourne.:)

MissMelly2U
01-29-2008, 09:51 PM
Perhaps you're living in a bubble? Perhaps you just don't care? And it's very unhealthy to measure the world by your own actions and beliefs.

(Unfortunately, there's no sign of anything resembling a decent tennis player coming from Iraq, Iran or Saudi Arabia. Now THAT would be an interesting situation for MTF idiots, particularly those overseas.)

Perhaps you are missing the point. Your generalizations about how Western people feel about Eastern Europeans are hypocritical and out of place. I've read plenty of times on this board about how disgusting Americans act, and I don't take to that too kindly either, especially when I see the opposite on regular basis. I don't think most people really care that the Djokovics are Serbian; they are more concerned about how their behavior reflects on their son, and tennis as a whole.

LOB
01-30-2008, 02:27 AM
A hint of snobbery? You bet.

i consider myself middle-class. i think the main problem with players from the second world (no offense) is that either they're filthy effing rich (like gulbis) or poor and low-class (like djokovic) whereas tennis has always been a middle-class sport player-wise and audience-wise.

i guess that's why many people in the western world have problems with the antics of eastern europeans for example (dementieva, djokovic, myskina, sharapova etc.). they have a different background and had to fight for everything they have now. boris becker would be well off even of he didn't play tennis. sport wasn't his silver lining back in the day, but it apparently was for djokovic for example. tennis was his way out of misery, figuratively, just like the ghetto kids in brazil play football to make a living.So both you and the tennis community are middle class, but the Eastern Europeans are not - and that's a problem? I wonder whose problem it is?

That silver lining analogy comes off as an underhanded attempt to diminish people's achievements, i.e. Boris chose success while the ghetto kids chose survival. Go figure.


i guess what i'm trying to say is: there's a code of conduct in the western world for people with money. people who obey these rules, i consider classy (among others, of course). thing is: if you didn't grow up with it, there's quite a likelihood that you don't give an eff about them and just celebrate your wealth.Textbook snobbery. Obeying the "rules" of money is "classy," but if you're not born with the money (thereby the "rules") you're unlikely to display the "class."


i'd guess that people who suddenly find lots of wealth within a comparably poor society are prone to act like pricks. there's a reason why russia's billionaires have defined a whole new customer group along with romanians, ukrainians or bulgarians after the soviet union collapsed. the lack of a middle class, the non-existence of a "bourgeoisie" if you will, has taken its toll on the society in eastern europe (including the balkans).More snobbery. I mean to say that the "non-existence of a bourgeoisie" has taken a toll on a people in terms of their behaviour or whatever? This is the definition of snobbery.


and djokovic's parents couldn't grow up wealthy as they didn't even have a free market back then.I'm sure the free market would have brought them untold riches.


unfortunately english isn't my first language, so you'll just have to believe me (or not) that i don't have any problems with eastern europe as i can't expand on all of that fluently enough to make sense.Finally, I thought I'd touch on this point. IMO the fact that English isn't your first language doesn't excuse the elitist attitude that you have displayed in this thread, not one bit. You may not "have any problems with Eastern Europe" but your opinion of it is quite clear.