Serbian history and related issues [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Serbian history and related issues

Aloimeh
10-20-2007, 04:23 AM
If anyone wants to post on these topics (including sawan) please do, but it has to stop on general messages.

BalkanBoy
10-20-2007, 04:35 AM
Good initiative!!!

Bascule
10-20-2007, 04:41 AM
I don't know what to say, but all that rubbish these guys constantly wrote what was insulting for an human for just being from certain country, is the real reason for serbs, for example not to be fan base like the other ones. And it's clear, that's not my or yours fault. I'm pretty shocked by some statements of these guys, I don't know how to change this things, at least on this forum. Is it possible? Remember Rainer? He was ready to correct himself.

Aloimeh
10-20-2007, 04:44 AM
I don't know what to say, but all that rubbish these guys constantly wrote what was insulting for an human for just being from certain country, is the real reason for serbs, for example not to be fan base like the other ones. And it's clear, that's not my or yours fault. I'm pretty shocked by some statements of these guys, I don't know how to change this things, at least on this forum. Is it possible? Remember Rainer? He was ready to correct himself.

Yes, of course. We are supposed to grovel in the mud and apologize to our exterminators and persecutors. There's always this sneering and derision beneath the surface, and we've seen it most strongly from posters such as Allure, GlennMirnyi, bilbo, and sawan.

Rrainer's a good guy.

BalkanBoy
10-20-2007, 04:44 AM
Maybe you should rename this thread to Serbian History and post some links where people could get interesting information directly from your first post. I have interesting links and also a good documentary movie.

Bascule
10-20-2007, 04:48 AM
I only pointed on Sawan's character in my post and how much insulted it was. Also that he has no idea about our history. The only reason they could delete my post was, maybe, that I mentioned american propaganda during the war (as you did, guys) and told him to think with his own head.

Aloimeh
10-20-2007, 04:49 AM
I don't know why he wasn't banned yet. His comment of "every life killed is like killing everyone" is a very Muslim-type comment, as I've heard it multiple times from that faction. I wonder if he was "educated" by his religious leaders, as many Muslims are about Chechnya, Bosnia, Kashmir, etc. That would explain the constant attacks against ethnicity.

BalkanBoy
10-20-2007, 04:54 AM
I don't know what to say, but all that rubbish these guys constantly wrote what was insulting for an human for just being from certain country, is the real reason for serbs, for example not to be fan base like the other ones. And it's clear, that's not my or yours fault. I'm pretty shocked by some statements of these guys, I don't know how to change this things, at least on this forum. Is it possible? Remember Rainer? He was ready to correct himself.

I felt the same about Rainer but I guess maintream media destroyed our reputation of 1000 years hard earned that everyone of us have to do something to correct it. This is a really good iniciative. Also, Serbia is alittle bit cursed, because like Czar Lazar said from 1389, I think it was him or I could be wrong, " We are in a dilemma where the East think we are in West and the West think we are in East" So we have to rely on ourselfs. :angel:

BalkanBoy
10-20-2007, 04:55 AM
Oh and by writing that last post, I think it's where the CCCC(SSSS) come from right? Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava or Only Union Save the Serbs.

Lee
10-20-2007, 04:58 AM
I appreciate no more talk about banning/non-banning of members of the board in this thread.

As Deb and I had mentioned in GM before, if you feel any posts that's offending, please use the report button and give a clear and non-offensive explanation.

And if you feel that no action or inappropriate action was taken, send a PM to supermods or admins of the board. You can find who they are on the main page. Near the bottom there is a button called "view forum leaders"

Bascule
10-20-2007, 05:00 AM
They can always see some short movies about serbia at youtube.
I'm afaraid they will always pull these things as long as Nole is threat for their favors, especially after they found out how painful are this subject for us. You can see, they even don't understand why all these people from serbia favorize Nole only (and that's not the true, there are some of them who cheer for Nole's oponents), and that's nationalism for them. There are few guys who got it, it's because we are small country, and I should add: full of problems, especially in economy, coming out from several wars, need to improve itself.

BalkanBoy
10-20-2007, 05:00 AM
I don't know why he wasn't banned yet. His comment of "every life killed is like killing everyone" is a very Muslim-type comment, as I've heard it multiple times from that faction. I wonder if he was "educated" by his religious leaders, as many Muslims are about Chechnya, Bosnia, Kashmir, etc. That would explain the constant attacks against ethnicity.

Don't know really but I don't like to concentrate on unique cases, this thread is good because people could get a cleaner image of history of Serbia and Balkans before posting such ridiculous comments like Sawan or Rainer was and a bunch of others. The idea is to touch the most people and save the most time :D

Aloimeh
10-20-2007, 05:01 AM
I appreciate no more talk about banning/non-banning of members of the board in this thread.

As Deb and I had mentioned in GM before, if you feel any posts that's offending, please use the report button and give a clear and non-offensive explanation.

And if you feel that no action or inappropriate action was taken, send a PM to supermods or admins of the board. You can find who they are on the main page. Near the bottom there is a button called "view forum leaders"

Well, sawan posted one offending post after another. And he has been doing this disgusting ethnic insinuation on Djokovic threads before. I don't know why this is seen as acceptable. I'm not sure that that would be the case if some other ethnicity were being abused on a GM forum.

Aloimeh
10-20-2007, 05:05 AM
They can always see some short movies about serbia at youtube.
I'm afaraid they will always pull these things as long as Nole is threat for their favors, especially after they found out how painful are this subject for us. You can see, they even don't understand why all these people from serbia favorize Nole only (and that's not the true, there are some of them who cheer for Nole's oponents), and that's nationalism for them. There are few guys who got it, it's because we are small country, and I should add: full of problems, especially in economy, coming out from several wars, need to improve itself.

I think it is impossible to discuss history in such a large context. When multiple people are laying down allegations, it is difficult to make an argument. If one honest person is interested in hearing a different perspective, then they will calmly discuss the issues post by post and you can direct them to alternative sources.

But when it's a feeding frenzy with sawan, allure, glenn and who knows else snapping at "those Serbs" and "Serbian fans the worst" - there's little that can be argued.

BalkanBoy
10-20-2007, 05:11 AM
I don't like YouTube alot because of the "comments" section where you find the most retarded people but this video is still intact:

It is about WW2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dR3DQvaiLFw

Also Yougoslavia: the Avoidable War

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=5860186121153047571&q=Yugoslavia+Avoidable+War&total=8&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Part2

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=6371060303901674397&q=Yugoslavia+Avoidable+War&total=8&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

Bascule
10-20-2007, 05:13 AM
It's SAMO SLOGA SRBINA SPASAVA. When did you leave Bosnia, Balkanboy? Did you have less problems in Canada then Aloimeh in USA (I guess so), or you're not even in Canada?
Aloimeh , how did you feel then (you were only 15), did that make you feel less worth than other children at school? It must be terrible for you, cause you are born american. Have you ever been in Serbia? (Guess you have relatives here and in Slovenia). Samo me zanima informativno, ok, nema ljutis?

Aloimeh
10-20-2007, 05:18 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Kosovo

[edit] 14th century
The Dečani Charter from 1330 contained detailed list of households and chartered villages in Metohija and northwestern Albania:

3 of 89 settlements were Albanian, the other being non-Albanian.
Out of the 2,166 farming homesteads and 2,666 houses in cattle-grazing land, 44 were registrated as Albanian (1,8%). Others were registered as Slavic mostly Serbian.
The non-Serbian population of Kosovo didn't exceed 2% by the end of the 14th century.


[edit] 15th century
1455: Turkish cadastral tax census (defter)[1] of the Brankovic dynasty lands (covering 80% of present-day Kosovo) recorded 480 villages, 13,693 adult males, 12,985 dwellings, 14,087 household heads (480 widows and 13,607 adult males). Totally there were around 75,000 inhabitants in 590 villages comprising modern-day Kosovo. By ethnicity:

12,985 Serbian dwellings present in all 480 villages and towns
75 Vlach dwellings in 34 villages
46 Albanian dwellings in 23 villages
17 Bulgarian dwellings in 10 villages
5 Greek dwellings in Lauša, Vučitrn
1 Jewish dwelling in Vučitrn
1 Croat dwelling
1487: A census of the House of Branković Ottoman

Vučitrn district:
16,729 Christian housing (412 in Priština and Vučitrn)
117 Moslem households (94 in Priština and 83 in rural areas)
Scutari district:
Ipek district:
City of Ipek - 68% Slavs
121 Christian household
33 Moslem households
Suho Grlo and Metohija:
131 Christian household of who 52% in Suho Grlo were Slavs
Donja Klina - 50% Slavs
Dečani - 64% Slavs
Rural areas:
6,124 Christian housings (99%)
55 Moslem houses (1%)

[edit] 17th - 18th century
The Great Turkish War of 1683-1699 between the Ottomans and the Habsburgs led to the flight of a substantial part of Kosovan Serbian population to Austrian held Vojvodina and the Military Frontier - about 60-70,000 Serb refugees total settled in the Habsburg Monarchy in that time of whom many were from Kosovo. Following this an influx of Catholic Albanian[2] from the highlands (Malesi) occurred, mostly into Metohija. The process continued in 18th century.[2]

The same was repeated during the Second Migration of Serbs in 1737.


[edit] 19th century
19th century data about the population of Kosovo tend to be rather conflicting, giving sometimes numerical superiority to the Serbs and sometimes to the Albanians. The Ottoman statistics are regarded as unreliable, as the empire counted its citizens by religion rather than nationality, using birth records rather than surveys of individuals.

A study in 1838 by an Austrian physician, dr. Joseph Müller found Metohija to be mostly Slavic (Serbian) in character.[3] Müller gives data for the three counties (Bezirke) of Prizren, Peć and Đakovica which roughly covered Metohija, the portion adjacent to Albania and most affected by Albanian settlers. Out of 195,000 inhabitants in Metohija, Müller found:

114,000 Muslims (58%):
c. 38,000 are Serbs (19%)
c. 76,000 are Albanians (39%)
Christians:
73,572 Eastern Orthodox Serbs (38%)
5,120 Roman Catholic Albanians (3%)
2,308 other non-Muslims (Janjevci etc.)
Müller's observations on towns:

Peć: 11,050 Serbs, 500 Albanians
Prizren: 16,800 Serbs, 6150 Albanians
Đakovica: majority of Albanians, surrounding villages Serbian
Map published by French ethnographer G. Lejean[4] in 1861 shows that Albanians lived on around 57% of the territory of today's province while a similar map, published by British travellers G. M. Mackenzie and A. P. Irby[4] in 1867 shows slightly less; these maps don't show which population was larger overall.

A study done in 1871 by Austrian colonel Peter Kukulj[5] for the internal use of the Austro-Hungarian army showed that the mutesarifluk of Prizren (corresponding largely to present-day Kosovo) had some 500,000 inhabitants, of which:

318,000 Serbs (64%),
161,000 Albanians (32%),
10,000 Romas (Gypsies) and Circassians
2,000 Turks
Miloš S. Milojević travelled the region in 1871-1877 and left accounts which testify that Serbs were majority population, and were predominant in all cities, while Albanians were minority and lived mostly in villages.[6] According to his data, Albanians were majority population in southern Drenica (Muslim Albanians), and in region around Djakovica (Catholic Albanians), while the city was majorly Serbian. He also recorded several settlements of Turks, Romas and Circassians.

It is estimated that around 400,000[7] Serbs were cleansed out of the Vilayet of Kosovo between 1876 and 1912 , especially during the Greek-Ottoman War in 1897.[8]

Maps published by German historian Kiepert[4] in 1876, J. Hahn[4] and Austrian consul K. Sax,[4] show that Albanians live on most of the territory of today's province, however they don't show which population is larger. According to these, the regions of Kosovska Mitrovica and Kosovo Polje were settled mostly by Serbs, whereas most of the terrirory of western and eastern parts of today's province was settled by Muslim Albanians.

An Austrian statistics[9] published in 1899 estimated:

182,650 Albanians (47.88%)
166,700 Serbs (43.7%)
Remaining 8.42% Tsintsars, Turks, Circassians, Romas and Jews
At the end of the 19th century, Spiridon Gopchevich, an Autrian traveller - comprised a statistics and published them in Vienna. They established that Prizren had 60,000 citizens of whome 11,000 were Christian Serbs and 36,000 Moslem Serbs. The remaining population were Turks, Albanians, Tzintzars and Gypsies. For Pec he said that it had 2,530 households of which 1,600 were Mohammedan, 700 Christian Serb, 200 Catholic Albanian and 10 Turkish.


[edit] 20th century
British journalist H. Brailsford estimated[10] that two-thirds of the population of Kosovo was Albanian and one-third Serbian. The most populous western districts of Djakovica and Pec were said to have between 20,000 and 25,000 Albanian households, as against some 5,000 Serbian ones. Map of Alfred Stead,[11] published in 1909 , shows that similar numbers of Serbs and Albanians were living in the territory.

German scholar Gustav Weigand gave the following statistical data about the population of Kosovo,[2] based on the pre-war situation in Kosovo in 1912:

Prishtina District: 67% Albanians, 30% Serbs
Prizreni District: 63% Albanians, 36% Serbs
Vučitrn District: 90% Albanians, 10% Serbs
Ferizaj (Uroševac) District: 70% Albanians, 30% Serbs
Gilani (Gnjilane) District: 75% Albanians, 23% Serbs
Mitrovica District: 60% Serbs, 40% Albanians
Metohija with the town of Đakovica (Gjakova) is furthermore defined as almost exclusively Albanian by Weigand.

BalkanBoy
10-20-2007, 05:20 AM
I think it is impossible to discuss history in such a large context. When multiple people are laying down allegations, it is difficult to make an argument. If one honest person is interested in hearing a different perspective, then they will calmly discuss the issues post by post and you can direct them to alternative sources.

But when it's a feeding frenzy with sawan, allure, glenn and who knows else snapping at "those Serbs" and "Serbian fans the worst" - there's little that can be argued.

It's true but all those people seem to me misinformed because of the long period of mainstream media bad rep. I'm sure people would visit this thread when it could be needed, when they cross the line. It's why it would be good to make a nice first post with videos and information but nothing too complex and too long. I think it's the best way to cure the virus :lol:

Aloimeh
10-20-2007, 05:21 AM
It's SAMO SLOGA SRBINA SPASAVA. When did you leave Bosnia, Balkanboy? Did you have less problems in Canada then Aloimeh in USA (I guess so), or you're not even in Canada?
Aloimeh , how did you feel then (you were only 15), did that make you feel less worth than other children at school? It must be terrible for you, cause you are born american. Have you ever been in Serbia? (Guess you have relatives here and in Slovenia). Samo me zanima informativno, ok, nema ljutis?

If what was said were true, it would be difficult to swallow. But given that so much was untrue or exaggerated or one-sided, it was a lot harder to take it. Actually, at college that sentiment was even worse (more liberal, and more awareness of international issues), but thankfully I started several years after the 1999 war so I was minimally exposed.

This is a good book on the 1998-1999 Kosovo war:

http://www.amazon.com/Fools-Crusade-Yugoslavia-Western-Delusions/dp/158367084X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-5559263-5183304?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1192854067&sr=8-1

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516W9YY067L._SS500_.jpg

Bascule
10-20-2007, 05:22 AM
BB, you are absolutly right about youtube, and Al, you're right about posts. And, what else we can do? I just can't believe we are talking about this, if somebody told me dozen years ago, I wouldn't believe. I was educated to be humanist and cosmopolitan. I traveled very much before this stinking war begun. But, I also always felt that I should do something good for society, if I'm able to, and that's the reason I spent so much time on street (during the wars) instead to study and think only of my own problem.:rolleyes:

Aloimeh
10-20-2007, 05:25 AM
These statistics are good, since they illustrate that the story of Nazi Serbia is totally false. One can see that around 1/3 of the population is not ethnically Serb.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Serbia

The ethnic composition of Central Serbia and Vojvodina, according to the 2002 census[1]:

Serbia (excluding Kosovo) Central Serbia Vojvodina
Number % Number % Number %
TOTAL 7,498,001 100 5,466,009 100 2,031,992 100
Serbs 6,212,844 82.86 4,891,031 89.48 1,321,807 65.05
Montenegrins 69,049 0.92 33,536 0.61 35,513 1.75
Yugoslavs 80,721 1.08 30,840 0.56 49,881 2.45
Albanians 61,647 0.82 59,952 1.1 1,695 0.08
Bosniaks 136,087 1.82 135,670 2.48 417 0.02
Bulgarians 20,497 0.27 18,839 0.34 1,658 0.08
Bunjevci 20,012 0.27 246 0 19,766 0.97
Gorani 4,581 0.06 3,975 0.07 606 0.03
Croats 70,602 0.94 14,056 0.26 56,546 2.78
Macedonians 25,847 0.35 14,062 0.26 11,785 0.58
Muslims (by nationality) 19,503 0.26 15,869 0.29 3,634 0.18
Roma and Sinti 108,193 1.44 79,136 1.45 29,057 1.43
Vlachs 40,054 0.53 39,953 0.73 101 0
Romanians 34,576 0.46 4,157 0.08 30,419 1.5
Germans 3,901 0.05 747 0.01 3,154 0.16
Ruthenes 15,905 0.21 279 0.01 15,626 0.77
Russians 2,588 0.03 1,648 0.03 940 0.05
Slovaks 59,021 0.79 2,384 0.04 56,637 2.79
Slovenes 5,104 0.07 3,099 0.06 2,005 0.1
Czechs 2,211 0.03 563 0.01 1,648 0.08
Ukrainians 5,354 0.07 719 0.01 4,635 0.23
Hungarians 293,299 3.91 3,092 0.06 290,207 14.28
Others 11,711 0.16 6,400 0.12 5,311 0.26
Unspecified 107,732 1.44 52,716 0.97 55,016 2.71
Unknown 75,483 1.01 51,709 0.95 23,774 1.17

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Serbia_ethnic02.png

Lee
10-20-2007, 05:26 AM
Well, sawan posted one offending post after another. And he has been doing this disgusting ethnic insinuation on Djokovic threads before. I don't know why this is seen as acceptable. I'm not sure that that would be the case if some other ethnicity were being abused on a GM forum.

Have any of you reported those posts before and explained to moderators why the posts are offensive? I am not moderators of GM so I don't really know whether those posts were reported or not.

And if you have reported those posts and no action was taken, you can send PM to moderators and asked for an explanation. I can assure you these actions will be more effective than complaining or responding to those posts in the threads.

Moderators may not have read those posts as it's impossible for us to read every posts on these forum. Even in the subforum where forum moderators are responsible for. So we rely mainly on posters reporting posts. Moreover, as I said before, we are not know-it-all. Moderators may read something but may not realise the implications there.

I tuned out of a lot of the posts in Nole's threads in GM so even I read thru the thread, I still did not read some of the posts.

Aloimeh
10-20-2007, 05:28 AM
Have any of you reported those posts before and explained to moderators why the posts are offensive? I am not moderators of GM so I don't really know whether those posts were reported or not.

And if you have reported those posts and no action was taken, you can send PM to moderators and asked for an explanation. I can assure you these actions will be more effective than complaining or responding to those posts in the threads.

Moderators may not have read those posts as it's impossible for us to read every posts on these forum. Even in the forum where forum moderators are responsible for. So we rely mainly on posters reporting posts. Moreover, as I said before, we are not know-it-all. Moderators may read something but may not realise the implications there.

I tuned out of a lot of the posts in Nole's threads in GM so even I read thru the thread, I still did not read some of the posts.

OK. Next time I see him doing that kind of stuff, it will be reported.

BalkanBoy
10-20-2007, 05:30 AM
It's SAMO SLOGA SRBINA SPASAVA. When did you leave Bosnia, Balkanboy? Did you have less problems in Canada then Aloimeh in USA (I guess so), or you're not even in Canada?
Aloimeh , how did you feel then (you were only 15), did that make you feel less worth than other children at school? It must be terrible for you, cause you are born american. Have you ever been in Serbia? (Guess you have relatives here and in Slovenia). Samo me zanima informativno, ok, nema ljutis?

In 1995(was 10) and I'm in the French part of Canada so English is my third language, I'm sure you noticed that all with my numerous writing mistakes. And I really don't rememeber anything related to ethnic problems here... I never felt that but when there is racism, I think they all put us in the same bag and don't make differences ( For exemple when they read your name while you're applying for a job, you be Serb, Croat, Muslim or Black, your C.V is going in the trash :D )

Aloimeh
10-20-2007, 05:31 AM
It is a little known fact that while Serbia was under sanctions, Croatia and the Bosnian Muslims took advantage of the public relations firm Ruder Finn, which shaped the media reporting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruder_Finn

Ruder Finn is an United States public relations firm founded in 1948 by David Finn and William Ruder.

Ruder Finn is a privately held, family-owned company that employs more than 450 people. Its public relations cover healthcare, technology, consumer, interactive, media, arts and culture, and environmental programming.[specify]

Since 1978, Ruder Finn has maintained an executive-training program, which approximately 20% of Ruder Finn employees have participated in to date.

Ruder Finn's first client was Perry Como, and was followed by celebrity clients such as Dinah Shore, Frankie Laine, The Mills Brothers, Jack Lemmon and Rosalind Russell. Other clients include Novartis, Travel Alberta, Twinings Tea, glaceau, and Air France. They also represented Bosniaks and Croats in the Yugoslav wars.

Bascule
10-20-2007, 05:34 AM
Have any of you reported those posts before and explained to moderators why the posts are offensive? I am not moderators of GM so I don't really know whether those posts were reported or not.

And if you have reported those posts and no action was taken, you can send PM to moderators and asked for an explanation. I can assure you these actions will be more effective than complaining or responding to those posts in the threads.

Moderators may not have read those posts as it's impossible for us to read every posts on these forum. Even in the forum where forum moderators are responsible for. So we rely mainly on posters reporting posts. Moreover, as I said before, we are not know-it-all. Moderators may read something but may not realise the implications there.

I tuned out of a lot of the posts in Nole's threads in GM so even I read thru the thread, I still did not read some of the posts.

When I wanted to report as Deb said, his post was deleted at the moment. Then second post appeared, when he citated himself. I tried with that sign ! right down on the left side and I put the reasons, but it seems, my raport wasn't accepted and I've been told to send message to moderator, I don't remember right. If he deleted his posts, could I still do this?

BalkanBoy
10-20-2007, 05:45 AM
That's some good stuff there Al and you could add this link to your first post as it describe rapidly some part of history and is made by a non-Serb authour.

http://www.greece.org/themis/action_press/serbia.htm

I think people will be more interested if all pertinent information is concentrated in one post(the 1st one) because myself included, I rarly read every post in a thread, especially if they are several of them. Btw, you can Edit it :)

BalkanBoy
10-20-2007, 05:47 AM
Bascule where are you now(city) and how old are you?

Lee
10-20-2007, 05:51 AM
When I wanted to report as Deb said, his post was deleted at the moment. Then second post appeared, when he citated himself. I tried with that sign ! right down on the left side and I put the reasons, but it seems, my raport wasn't accepted and I've been told to send message to moderator, I don't remember right. If he deleted his posts, could I still do this?

You can send the link of the thread to moderators and mentioned who's the poster and approximately where the post was and it's content. Moderators can still read posts that are deleted.

Bascule
10-20-2007, 05:51 AM
It is a little known fact that while Serbia was under sanctions, Croatia and the Bosnian Muslims took advantage of the public relations firm Ruder Finn, which shaped the media reporting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruder_Finn

It was quite obviously, but we never find out what happened concrete with this media war. And, we all know they won this war, cause our politicians were deaf and stubborn. And it was the most precious war to win.
I have lot of documentaries here, but you can also find them on DC++, some serbian or ex-yu hub. I have some documents, but mostly on serbian. What to do? Tell me? What are you interesting in? Should I find some documents and put here? Do you have documentaries on serbian and english from serbian tv, bbc, croat, bosnian tv, ect..

Bascule
10-20-2007, 05:53 AM
You can send the link of the thread to moderators and mentioned who's the poster and approximately where the post was and it's content. Moderators can still read posts that are deleted.

Thank you very much, you're kind as usual.

Bascule
10-20-2007, 05:56 AM
Bascule where are you now(city) and how old are you?

Belgrade, female :sad:

Bascule
10-20-2007, 06:06 AM
Didn't notice you changed the title. Good. What's the easiest way to put some pictures here?

BalkanBoy
10-20-2007, 06:13 AM
Belgrade, female,38:sad:

Hehe it's all good, don't need to be sad :)

BalkanBoy
10-20-2007, 06:17 AM
It was quite obviously, but we never find out what happened concrete with this media war. And, we all know they won this war, cause our politicians were deaf and stubborn. And it was the most precious war to win.
I have lot of documentaries here, but you can also find them on DC++, some serbian or ex-yu hub. I have some documents, but mostly on serbian. What to do? Tell me? What are you interesting in? Should I find some documents and put here? Do you have documentaries on serbian and english from serbian tv, bbc, croat, bosnian tv, ect..

I'm thinking of something that could be the easiest to way to someone to understand the history there it's why I posted that Greek source because it resumes 50 years in only some lines and is still very clear and informative. If these documents are simple to understand then it's all good and also the source of the documents are important because some would call it "propaganda"

Bascule
10-20-2007, 06:18 AM
All 3 facts are very bad, believe me, especially in Serbia. Like you, when they see I'm woman, they put my CV in trash! (sexism rules here, especially for "men's" jobs).

BalkanBoy
10-20-2007, 06:28 AM
All 3 facts are very bad, believe me, especially in Serbia. Like you, when they see I'm woman, they put my CV in trash! (sexism rules here, especially for "men's" jobs).

It's my father that has mainly these problems because I'm still in school and it's maybe waiting me too :( It's sad we're paying the price for these sexist bastards over there, they should be brought here :D . Joke aside, the economy is going better in Serbia year after year and with that, the women situation should get better and better too. With SAA (EU), things could also change fast.

Bascule
10-20-2007, 06:30 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia

BalkanBoy
10-20-2007, 06:38 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/WorldWarI-MilitaryDeaths-EntentePowers-Piechart.svg/480px-WorldWarI-MilitaryDeaths-EntentePowers-Piechart.svg.png

This graphic shows the deaths of the EntentePowers (Right Side)

Serbia was indeed with Allies or (The Right Side) in both World Wars and has paid a high price for liberty, 33 % of it's population was lost in WW1 . The war also started because Serbia refused to accept Austro-Hungary dominance which led indirectly to the liberation of alot of little nations that Austro-Hungarian Empire occupied. Something that they should be thankful for.

Bascule
10-20-2007, 06:40 AM
It's my father that has mainly these problems because I'm still in school and it's maybe waiting me too :( It's sad we're paying the price for these sexist bastards over there, they should be brought here :D . Joke aside, the economy is going better in Serbia year after year and with that, the women situation should get better and better too. With SAA (EU), things could also change fast.

On the contrary, believe me, and I finished the most hardest studdies. But woman in men world, it's like she's gonna have children, etcetera, she can't work 12 hours a day, and if you already have children, they don't even want to hear about you. And they want you to have your own apartment and your own car, actually, they all want young man (about 25), very rich, who has already liscence for engeeinering, looking like model, with new Mercedes Benz for job only. And I'm not joking!
This the first fase of capitalism, like in England in 18th, maybe 19th century (like we read in classics).
How can I put the photo here?

BalkanBoy
10-20-2007, 06:53 AM
On the contrary, believe me, and I finished the most hardest studdies. But woman in men world, it's like she's gonna have children, etcetera, she can't work 12 hours a day, and if you already have children, they don't even want to hear about you. And they want you to have your own apartment and your own car, actually, they all want young man (about 25), very rich, who has already liscence for engeeinering, looking like model, with new Mercedes Benz for job only. And I'm not joking!
This the first fase of capitalism, like in England in 18th, maybe 19th century (like we read in classics).
How can I put the photo here?

I understand you totaly and you can post an image by clicking on the yellow Icon which is in the tools bar and then Copy and Paste the URL adress of the image you found on internet. You find the url in "proprieties" of the image when you right click on it.

Bascule
10-20-2007, 06:58 AM
Al is stuck probably in father's library, eh?
Anyway, you're lucky, guys, going to bad, here is 8 in the morning (and it's raining) and my sleeping is finished before it begun. I have to do some things, I'm always log on even if I'm out. So, see you later, alligators.
If you want some docum. movies for yourself, let me know.

Bascule
10-20-2007, 07:00 AM
I understand you totaly and you can post an image by clicking on the yellow Icon which is in the tools bar and then Copy and Paste the URL adress of the image you found on internet. You find the url in "proprieties" of the image when you right click on it.

I mean, images from my desktop.

BalkanBoy
10-20-2007, 07:47 AM
I mean, images from my desktop.

I don't know :shrug:

adynadal
10-20-2007, 11:41 AM
Hi,guys!i just wanted to say that what you are doing here is great...finally there is a thread where we can show the real face of Serbia,not the one so many people have on their mind...i,myself,am not Serbian but i swear that every time i read or hear something full of hate to the country and it`s nation i take if personally and it makes me both mad and sad.it`s because usually those things are said by people who know nothing about Serbia,it`s history and culture but they are norrow-minded enough to don`t even try to build their own opinion about the things surroundind them,they only depend of what they have been said by the others...to be complitely honest it`s normal that they have heard so many bad things about Serbia and it`s past but none of them has even checked what`s right and what`s wrong,they have accepted it as the only truth coz it`s much easier to hate something than try to know it...Serbia is a beautiful country,with a difficult,sad and very complicated history and i`m sure that it`s future will be much brighter but not that easier..a lot is done for the better but there is much more to come!but the Serbs are great people with great spirit and self belief and i know that they will keep on finding their best way coz their deserve it.The Serbians have all the best of the Balkanian personality and they are keeping it without trying to follow any foreign standarts and steriotypes.that`s why i respect them so much as a nation and that`s why i love them and i am always ready to fight when it comes to Serbia and Serbia`s nation!

adynadal
10-20-2007, 11:43 AM
Hi,guys!i just wanted to say that what you are doing here is great...finally there is a thread where we can show the real face of Serbia,not the one so many people have on their mind...i,myself,am not Serbian but i swear that every time i read or hear something full of hate to the country and it`s nation i take if personally and it makes me both mad and sad.it`s because usually those things are said by people who know nothing about Serbia,it`s history and culture but they are norrow-minded enough to don`t even try to build their own opinion about the things surroundind them,they only depend of what they have been said by the others...to be complitely honest it`s normal that they have heard so many bad things about Serbia and it`s past but none of them has even checked what`s right and what`s wrong,they have accepted it as the only truth coz it`s much easier to hate something than try to know it...Serbia is a beautiful country,with a difficult,sad and very complicated history and i`m sure that it`s future will be much brighter but not that easier..a lot is done for the better but there is much more to come!but the Serbs are great people with great spirit and self belief and i know that they will keep on finding their best way coz their deserve it.The Serbians have all the best of the Balkanian personality and they are keeping it without trying to follow any foreign standarts and steriotypes.that`s why i respect them so much as a nation and that`s why i love them and i am always ready to fight when it comes to Serbia and Serbia`s nation!

Stensland
10-20-2007, 12:43 PM
interesting read. :)

i got one question though: as i check the stats of serbia (economic growth etc.) i was wondering if anyone of you is actually planning to go back to serbia in the near future (or to bascule: never thought about leaving in the first place?). i understand that aloimeh is pretty much american (just roots in the balkans region), i'm not sure about balkan boy though. do you guys get ready to go back "home" soon? i mean, things don't look that bad and given the fact that you guys are probably able to make quite a lot of money compared to serbian living standards as of now, it'd be pretty easy to just relocate money-wise.

there's been a documentary about kosovo-albanians who fled their region in the 90s and came over to germany back then, that's why this occured to me. about 90% of them said that their kids wanted to stay in germany no matter what happens down there and only the old ones who have feelings and lots of memories about their home country wanna go back. i was stunned by these numbers, but on the other hand, many of the guys in my generation who are kosovo-albanians in germany are pretty much "germanized", growing up here, going to university (lots of good guys at my university come from kosovo) and most of the time speaking way better german than albanian. plus most of them have double citizenship after a while which makes it easier for them to stay and work/earn in a developed country whereas in kosovo they'd have to start from scratch.

anyways, just wondering what your actual links with serbia are and what your mindset about that is. i understand bascule just refused to leave though. ;) hats off to you! :)

sawan66278
10-20-2007, 01:11 PM
I appreciate no more talk about banning/non-banning of members of the board in this thread.

As Deb and I had mentioned in GM before, if you feel any posts that's offending, please use the report button and give a clear and non-offensive explanation.

Thank you, Lee.

Gentlemen (ladies?)...I have read a great deal about the conflict of the 90's in your part of the world. As I try to maintain a neutral stance before making any conclusions, I believe that to simply state that the vast majority of information available in the United States about Serbia is slanted and unbiased is intellectually unfounded. Painting this history with broad strokes under the title of "mainstream media" (which appears in your eyes to include organizations like Amnesty International and the World Court) is unacceptable to me.

HOWEVER, I AM willing to read/and/or view any texts, films, etc. about that era if you can point me in that direction. Please provide information about the qualifications of the individuals who are producing this material. Are they viewed in their respective academic circles as respected luminaries? Or are they mavericks whose views are akin to the ridiculous "refutation" of the Holocaust in Germany?

Also, as I stated in the tennis forum, do NOT assume that my views mirror those I mentioned. All I simply mentioned was that there are stereotypes present...and that, at times, people feel particular acts of individuals in said groups reinforce these stereotypes. However, more often than not, the stereotypes prove to be WRONG. (The film Crash does a wonderful job delving into this point). But I digress...

My point was that there are MANY individual I personally know who feel (unfortunately) that the stereotypes about Serbians are true. To attack me for posting these comments and wishing that I be banned was going overboard. Creating this subforum to discuss these ideas was a good idea. Believe me: taking offense because stereotypes are discussed does no good. I know...for I have found that simply expressing rage and anger at the mere mention of stereotypes does nothing but fuel more rage and anger. Intellectual proofs are the best and ONLY way to deal with stereotypes. And I actually thought this might happen...but I was wrong.

With respect to the "one life, all of humanity comment", please note: this is a common teaching in Judaism, Islam, and other religious traditions. I might argue, though I don't necessarily believe it, that your comments in response to my comment show cynicism about my sincerity and undercurrent of bias and dislike against that population (i.e. the Muslim population).

Again, I apologize if I offended anyone (including the individuals on this board presently). Let us move forward. However, I still stand by my convictions that support along national lines by any nation ultimately leads to more pain and suffering. And that tribalism needs to go the way of the dinosaur.

Bascule
10-20-2007, 05:36 PM
interesting read. :)

i got one question though: as i check the stats of serbia (economic growth etc.) i was wondering if anyone of you is actually planning to go back to serbia in the near future (or to bascule: never thought about leaving in the first place?). i understand that aloimeh is pretty much american (just roots in the balkans region), i'm not sure about balkan boy though. do you guys get ready to go back "home" soon? i mean, things don't look that bad and given the fact that you guys are probably able to make quite a lot of money compared to serbian living standards as of now, it'd be pretty easy to just relocate money-wise.

there's been a documentary about kosovo-albanians who fled their region in the 90s and came over to germany back then, that's why this occured to me. about 90% of them said that their kids wanted to stay in germany no matter what happens down there and only the old ones who have feelings and lots of memories about their home country wanna go back. i was stunned by these numbers, but on the other hand, many of the guys in my generation who are kosovo-albanians in germany are pretty much "germanized", growing up here, going to university (lots of good guys at my university come from kosovo) and most of the time speaking way better german than albanian. plus most of them have double citizenship after a while which makes it easier for them to stay and work/earn in a developed country whereas in kosovo they'd have to start from scratch.

anyways, just wondering what your actual links with serbia are and what your mindset about that is. i understand bascule just refused to leave though. ;) hats off to you! :)

Hi, nice post, glad you're interested. I studdied electrical engineering just because I wanted to live better than my parents, and because I dreamed of Canada after my studdies (that was possible then),but there came the war, we had no money, lived with 10-20 $ for one whole month, and I lost lot of time on political protests against Milosevic, sanctions, beating students, stopping the war and cheating on elections. I lived several years working on black market selling music on CDs and some other stuff. And it wasn't legal business, couse there was no legal business during the years of sanctions. And everything was corrupted. I don't like to be salesman and taking risk with law, so I decided to find the work (with my certificate). (Don't have to mention how hard was to get on those studdies and finish them, and then after the war begun western countries stopped approving our degrees, mostly). For a long time I couldn't find a job, when they see me among men on interview, they asked me usually why did I come, cause I'm female. It was pretty frustating because I didn't "know somebody who knew somebody". This year I'm working as a teacher in a techical high school, and my salary for last year was 4000$. (On black market selling matches you can earn much more). And this is temporary job. In january, I'll be free (haha). I did want to leave country, but had no money or support to do such thing. I have brother with kids in Berlin, they won't come back. Kids are born there, life is better and much more sure. My friends who left couldn't do it without their parents (I mean their money).
And my family from Croatia and Bosnia (just like Balkanboy)has gone to different countries (because of the program for helping refugees), and I think they are not crazy to come back, cause their homes are destroyed and croats want to put all young men in jails, and especially because of this pressure with jails, young people won't never go back to Croatia (that's good plan for Croatia to stay ethnically pure). They also took away all flats of serbs, so people from cities can't go back. That's with my proprety in Croatia, too, they took the flat from my grandma and destroy the house in village. I can't sell anything there to help my self. Even now, when you ask young and talented people from Serbia what will they do after studdies, they say: I'd like to go abroad.
Have a good day!

Bascule
10-20-2007, 05:46 PM
Hi,guys!i just wanted to say that what you are doing here is great...finally there is a thread where we can show the real face of Serbia,not the one so many people have on their mind...i,myself,am not Serbian but i swear that every time i read or hear something full of hate to the country and it`s nation i take if personally and it makes me both mad and sad.it`s because usually those things are said by people who know nothing about Serbia,it`s history and culture but they are norrow-minded enough to don`t even try to build their own opinion about the things surroundind them,they only depend of what they have been said by the others...to be complitely honest it`s normal that they have heard so many bad things about Serbia and it`s past but none of them has even checked what`s right and what`s wrong,they have accepted it as the only truth coz it`s much easier to hate something than try to know it...Serbia is a beautiful country,with a difficult,sad and very complicated history and i`m sure that it`s future will be much brighter but not that easier..a lot is done for the better but there is much more to come!but the Serbs are great people with great spirit and self belief and i know that they will keep on finding their best way coz their deserve it.The Serbians have all the best of the Balkanian personality and they are keeping it without trying to follow any foreign standarts and steriotypes.that`s why i respect them so much as a nation and that`s why i love them and i am always ready to fight when it comes to Serbia and Serbia`s nation!

I really can't believe. You almost emberessed me. You speak of serbs with more love than themselves. That's very nice of you. Thank you for this post.

Bascule
10-20-2007, 06:18 PM
Thank you, Lee.

Gentlemen (ladies?)...I have read a great deal about the conflict of the 90's in your part of the world. As I try to maintain a neutral stance before making any conclusions, I believe that to simply state that the vast majority of information available in the United States about Serbia is slanted and unbiased is intellectually unfounded. Painting this history with broad strokes under the title of "mainstream media" (which appears in your eyes to include organizations like Amnesty International and the World Court) is unacceptable to me.

HOWEVER, I AM willing to read/and/or view any texts, films, etc. about that era if you can point me in that direction. Please provide information about the qualifications of the individuals who are producing this material. Are they viewed in their respective academic circles as respected luminaries? Or are they mavericks whose views are akin to the ridiculous "refutation" of the Holocaust in Germany?

Also, as I stated in the tennis forum, do NOT assume that my views mirror those I mentioned. All I simply mentioned was that there are stereotypes present...and that, at times, people feel particular acts of individuals in said groups reinforce these stereotypes. However, more often than not, the stereotypes prove to be WRONG. (The film Crash does a wonderful job delving into this point). But I digress...

My point was that there are MANY individual I personally know who feel (unfortunately) that the stereotypes about Serbians are true. To attack me for posting these comments and wishing that I be banned was going overboard. Creating this subforum to discuss these ideas was a good idea. Believe me: taking offense because stereotypes are discussed does no good. I know...for I have found that simply expressing rage and anger at the mere mention of stereotypes does nothing but fuel more rage and anger. Intellectual proofs are the best and ONLY way to deal with stereotypes. And I actually thought this might happen...but I was wrong.

With respect to the "one life, all of humanity comment", please note: this is a common teaching in Judaism, Islam, and other religious traditions. I might argue, though I don't necessarily believe it, that your comments in response to my comment show cynicism about my sincerity and undercurrent of bias and dislike against that population (i.e. the Muslim population).

Again, I apologize if I offended anyone (including the individuals on this board presently). Let us move forward. However, I still stand by my convictions that support along national lines by any nation ultimately leads to more pain and suffering. And that tribalism needs to go the way of the dinosaur.

You don't have to thank Lee, we didn't react, that's why you are still here. I really thought for a moment that you could be interesting person. But, can't believe what you really post, and you are 36 (are you?). I just can't compete with you, because of the level of my english. I simply don't have fond of words big enough which I need to write exactly my thoughts. I hope our friends here will make it better. Each forum has some rules, and one thing is the same: it's not alowed to insult people for their nationality or race. And you did just that. And you deserve to be banned. But would you hang yourself after beeing displaced (maybe this forum fulfills your life) was dilema in my head). You should apologize to all serbs in this forum. It was stupid and nasty (besides you were borring with dart cheater and you still are, you keep repeating this rubbish all over again, we all remembered your words, believe me, but you just repeat as a parrot although moderators even explained you what cheating in tennis means). We don't have problem to critisize Novak, but among normal people (it means not with you, Escude, GlenM, Allure,Jaap,...) And, yes, we were sarcastic while
joking around (that's in our blood).
Serbs are not bloodthirsty, not even cowards (far away from that). But, maybe you're gonna clearly see that here if you're interested to change your sick mind. Even if that is wrote in your encyclopedia, you shouldn't insult people with that. Enough!
With "mainstream media" we think on your TV stations and papers controlled by white house. USA bombed Serbia. It means USA was in war with Serbia. And that means,... you can conclude. Showing Serbs in bad manner gives to "NATO campaign" legitimacy (well known as war propaganda).
And, about our nationality, this guys here (except me) are half serbs, half croat, half slovenian, or something else, so why they are defending "bloodthirsty" serbs here, what do you think?

adynadal
10-20-2007, 08:06 PM
I really can't believe. You almost emberessed me. You speak of serbs with more love than themselves. That's very nice of you. Thank you for this post.

All my pleasure,as you said i did it with Love!
what i don`t understand is that thing about stereotypes you keep on takling about.will someone finally mention what exactly those stereotypes are?if somewhere around the world one of the stereotypes about Serbians is that they are "bloodthirsty" then this is just another proof that this world is going in such a wrong direction!!!why are Serbs thought to be "bloodthirsty"?because of the wars?does this than mean that they were thirsty for their own blood?Jesus...the more i am thinking about it the less i believe it or understand it!!!i know hundreds of Serbians of all ages and they are wonderful people who have suffered a lot and had so many difficulties in their lives but managed to save their souls,thier personality,their love to life and people...
maybe nowadays Serbians are thirsty for happiness,success,glory,money and good enough future for their children but i don`t see anything wrong with this,they want what every other normal person does,the difference is that it`s been really hard for them to have it in the past and it`s still not as simple as it is in half of the rest of the world...
i don`t wanna talk about the wars,i don`t even wanna think about them but when there is a war,there is more than one side fighting and there is more than one point of view.Serbia has had lots of wars in which died a lot of people,including Serbians.i can`t understand why the Serbians are called "bloodthirsty" when they were not the only side involved and most of all the only side killing...Oh God...

Lossi
10-20-2007, 08:26 PM
i got one question though: as i check the stats of serbia (economic growth etc.) i was wondering if anyone of you is actually planning to go back to serbia in the near future (or to bascule: never thought about leaving in the first place?). i understand that aloimeh is pretty much american (just roots in the balkans region), i'm not sure about balkan boy though. do you guys get ready to go back "home" soon? i mean, things don't look that bad and given the fact that you guys are probably able to make quite a lot of money compared to serbian living standards as of now, it'd be pretty easy to just relocate money-wise.

I know you didn't ask me, but I will answer anyway ;)

The problem is for the majority of people living abroad, the quality of life abroad is still better than moving back to Serbia. Of course it depends on the job obtained etc, but in my case, my dad did his doctorate abroad in Canada in the late 80s/early 90s (I was born in Serbia, then went to Canada when I was 10 months old, came back to Serbia when I was 3/4 and moved to the UK when I was 6) and wanted to come and live in Serbia. Unfortunately, my mother got ill and with hyper-inflation, no one could afford the medication. So my dad got a job as a lecturer in the UK. So he's doing much better financially here, then he ever could do in Serbia.

Secondly, if they spend a lot of time there, people will inevitabley put down roots. My dad was always planning on going back after he retired, but he's married an Englishwoman, so I don't see it happening ;) Also, job, friends etc.

Also, a lot of kids who come over, lose their Serbian very quickly. I was lucky and was forced to keep it up by my parents (only Serbian spoken in the house), but a lot of parents don't do it and since kids want to fit in, English soon becomes their primary language because they speak it in school and then at home after school. Even with being forced to keep it up, my English is better than my Serbian :shrug:

Of course, this is balanced by the fact that a lot of us still have such strong links with Serbia :p Apart from a few family members living in Canada/America/Russia/Germany, 99% of my family live in Serbia and I will usually visit at least twice a year and have done so since sanctions were done with. But to be honest, I can't see myself moving back there, unless I was working for an English company :shrug:

Bascule
10-20-2007, 10:06 PM
adynadal says:
nowadays Serbians are thirsty for happiness,success,glory,money and good enough future for their children but i don`t see anything wrong with this,they want what every other normal person does,the difference is that it`s been really hard for them to have it in the past and it`s still not as simple as it is in half of the rest of the world...
That's right and I tried already to explain to some people why there are so much serbs on this forum lately, also why do we (almost all, but not all, if you look carefully) "only cheer for Djokovic" - Sawan666 doesn't understand that (what means he doesn't know much about little countries) and calls us all nationalists (in bad way) because of that?! He probably thinks we hate all other players, but did he see how serbs congrats to mario, even if some croat fan is provocating serbs before that. And did any serb said something bad about Nalbi today, no, they all spoke of his good game,...Of course, "We're no angels", as movie says, but far from being "bad guys" on this forum.
adynadal, it's always better with friends.:wavey:

Lossi says:
I know you didn't ask me, but I will answer anyway

The problem is for the majority of people living abroad, the quality of life abroad is still better than moving back to Serbia. Of course it depends on the job obtained etc, but in my case, my dad did his doctorate abroad in Canada in the late 80s/early 90s (I was born in Serbia, then went to Canada when I was 10 months old, came back to Serbia when I was 3/4 and moved to the UK when I was 6) and wanted to come and live in Serbia. Unfortunately, my mother got ill and with hyper-inflation, no one could afford the medication. So my dad got a job as a lecturer in the UK. So he's doing much better financially here, then he ever could do in Serbia.

Secondly, if they spend a lot of time there, people will inevitabley put down roots. My dad was always planning on going back after he retired, but he's married an Englishwoman, so I don't see it happening Also, job, friends etc.

Also, a lot of kids who come over, lose their Serbian very quickly. I was lucky and was forced to keep it up by my parents (only Serbian spoken in the house), but a lot of parents don't do it and since kids want to fit in, English soon becomes their primary language because they speak it in school and then at home after school. Even with being forced to keep it up, my English is better than my Serbian

Of course, this is balanced by the fact that a lot of us still have such strong links with Serbia Apart from a few family members living in Canada/America/Russia/Germany, 99% of my family live in Serbia and I will usually visit at least twice a year and have done so since sanctions were done with. But to be honest, I can't see myself moving back there, unless I was working for an English company


Yes, Lossi, he did ask you, he ask all of us and you gave a good question. It's just like you said. And I'm glad for you that your dad was able to get that job and provide you better quality of life.:wavey:

adynadal
10-20-2007, 10:45 PM
adynadal, it's always better with friends.:wavey:

sure!:hug:

Btw,you mentioned that Serbia is a small country and this is one of the reasons for the obssession everyone in Serbia has about Nole these days but concerning the fact that Serbia really has niether traditions nor successes in men`s tennis i can`t figure out anything that seemes more logical than Novak to be a hero for the whole nation...but what surprise me the most is the reaction of the "foreigners" coz i`m sure that if big countries like Germany,Italy and even the USA had players with the skills and achievements of Novak they would threat them exactly the same way.just look at the whole craziness that followed Murray`s successes in a huge(in every aspect)country as Great Britian and Andy has still not achierved half of what Nole has:D ...

Lossi
10-20-2007, 10:56 PM
Yes, Lossi, he did ask you, he ask all of us and you gave a good question. It's just like you said. And I'm glad for you that your dad was able to get that job and provide you better quality of life.:wavey:

:hug: We got lucky. My dad basically worked his ass off in university, since his parents had no money and managed to go to Canada to do his doctorate, which opened the door to the UK.

Have you seen any of the figure on how much money the diaspora brings into Serbia? It's amazing.

Also, on the subject of why so many Serbian fans now...tennis coverage in Serbia was abysmal before Nole :p I've found a lot more of my friends and family follow tennis in general, because of the coverage and Nole (and Ana and Jelena of course)

Jim Jones
10-21-2007, 02:30 PM
I have to disagree with what adynadal said. Serbia is no longer held in scorn in Europe. when Milosevic was overthrown by his people, Europeans opened up their arms to the Serbs. Sure there is pressure for serbia to cooperate with bringing Mladic and co. to trial but many EU nations like Spain and Slovakia are against Kosovo gaining its independance.

Kosovo will be like Taiwan. Independant in all but name with the northern tip in Serb control. And it should remain like that.

MaryX
10-21-2007, 07:50 PM
Hi, everyone!

I don't have a time now to read all that has been written here and talk about this subject long and reasonably, cause I got it all too personaly, but...

I think it's sad we've (Serbs)come to this-we are coming here to talk about tennis, and now, we feel humiliated and obliged to change other people opinions about our nation.

The demage has been done and neither Novak nor us (doesn't metter how well we are educated or cultivated)can change the global image of Serbia.I don't want to talk about people and factors that determined it, it is a long and complex story and something is beyond our recognition.May be later.


All 3 facts are very bad, believe me, especially in Serbia. Like you, when they see I'm woman, they put my CV in trash! (sexism rules here, especially for "men's" jobs).

I agree with you...I'm not in "men's" job, but I live in province, so there you can find sexism at it's best!Unfortunatelly, telling that here won't provide better picture of Serbia, but let's be sincere, sexism and bad staff selection are major problems here...

adynadal
10-21-2007, 09:33 PM
I have to disagree with what adynadal said. Serbia is no longer held in scorn in Europe. when Milosevic was overthrown by his people, Europeans opened up their arms to the Serbs. Sure there is pressure for serbia to cooperate with bringing Mladic and co. to trial but many EU nations like Spain and Slovakia are against Kosovo gaining its independance.

Kosovo will be like Taiwan. Independant in all but name with the northern tip in Serb control. And it should remain like that.

Hi!:wavey:
I`ll be completely honest and I`ll say that every time it comes to Kosovo i`m afraid not just to talk about it but even to think about it.I never dare to take any side or have my own opinion about it because i know how painful this might be for too many people and i know how sensitive people get when Kosovo`s status is concerned...
I only know that i feel sorry for everyone who lives there because it`s not easy for niether for the albanians nor for the Serbs...
I know how much Kosovo means for every Serbian,how important it was in Serbia`s history and that`s why i just don`t see the end of this problem in a peaceful way,I`m sorry to say it but that`s how i feel it in my heart...let`s hope i`m wrong:sad: !

Bascule
10-22-2007, 03:50 PM
Announcement by moderator:
There were lately very many rude, insulting, swearing posts against other posters and even against whole nations in heated discussions where tennis -and nothing else- should be the main objective. This especially involved the users Sawan66278, GlennMiryni and dimonator133. We are looking at these cases in order to decide if -and if yes, what- further steps are going to be taken. They should use this time to think about their general behaviour and respectful interactions with other persons.

Well, they reacted. Good. Hope this will manage the problem.

MaryX
10-22-2007, 09:57 PM
Hi!:wavey:
I`ll be completely honest and I`ll say that every time it comes to Kosovo i`m afraid not just to talk about it but even to think about it.I never dare to take any side or have my own opinion about it because i know how painful this might be for too many people and i know how sensitive people get when Kosovo`s status is concerned...
I only know that i feel sorry for everyone who lives there because it`s not easy for niether for the albanians nor for the Serbs...
I know how much Kosovo means for every Serbian,how important it was in Serbia`s history and that`s why i just don`t see the end of this problem in a peaceful way,I`m sorry to say it but that`s how i feel it in my heart...let`s hope i`m wrong:sad: !


Well, you are too nice! But, I have to say (just because one of our (serbian) characteristics are to be sincere) that Kosovo subject is not a taboo for me.It is true that Serbs have strong feelings about that region, thinking of it as of cradle of their nation (etc), but that is not the only and isolated case in world's history-it happened before, and frontiers are not given to be unchanged as the law may be teach us.We won't accept independency of Kosovo, that's ok with me and may be one day (not within our lives) it will be formally returned, but wouldn't we be stupid to defend it any way else but using diplomatic measures? Serbians are generally very tired of wars and in last year's research only 10% of citizens noted Kosovo as their primary concern and majority said it was economy and european integrations.

This year's research is a bit different and 25% voted for Kosovo, but that is one of crucial proofs of media power-our government totally failed in it's social and economy functions and goals-corruption is still very present, standard is low even though results are interpreted falsely, ...

Hi, nice post, glad you're interested. I studdied electrical engineering just because I wanted to live better than my parents, and because I dreamed of Canada after my studdies (that was possible then),but there came the war, we had no money, lived with 10-20 $ for one whole month, and I lost lot of time on political protests against Milosevic, sanctions, beating students, stopping the war and cheating on elections. I lived several years working on black market selling music on CDs and some other stuff. And it wasn't legal business, couse there was no legal business during the years of sanctions. And everything was corrupted. I don't like to be salesman and taking risk with law, so I decided to find the work (with my certificate). (Don't have to mention how hard was to get on those studdies and finish them, and then after the war begun western countries stopped approving our degrees, mostly). For a long time I couldn't find a job, when they see me among men on interview, they asked me usually why did I come, cause I'm female. It was pretty frustating because I didn't "know somebody who knew somebody". This year I'm working as a teacher in a techical high school, and my salary for last year was 4000$. (On black market selling matches you can earn much more). And this is temporary job. In january, I'll be free (haha). I did want to leave country, but had no money or support to do such thing. I have brother with kids in Berlin, they won't come back. Kids are born there, life is better and much more sure. My friends who left couldn't do it without their parents (I mean their money).
And my family from Croatia and Bosnia (just like Balkanboy)has gone to different countries (because of the program for helping refugees), and I think they are not crazy to come back, cause their homes are destroyed and croats want to put all young men in jails, and especially because of this pressure with jails, young people won't never go back to Croatia (that's good plan for Croatia to stay ethnically pure). They also took away all flats of serbs, so people from cities can't go back. That's with my proprety in Croatia, too, they took the flat from my grandma and destroy the house in village. I can't sell anything there to help my self. Even now, when you ask young and talented people from Serbia what will they do after studdies, they say: I'd like to go abroad.
Have a good day!

We have many things in common like most of people that studied here in that period (1990-2000).Wars, sanctions, poverty , demonstrations against Milosevic and his war and social policy (and his corrupted system in total) and in the end we are 10 years older, his tycoons are still running their empires and prize is shared with new political leaders...

But, all said above doesn't give legitimacy to enyone to disqualify others because of their nationality and his own predjudices.Every joke is potentionally a good joke, while it is not about somebody's looks, nationality, or IQ (even some of those can be good, but the wisdom is to know how to make them).

Lee
01-27-2008, 04:57 AM
bump

Jim Jones
01-27-2008, 07:47 PM
bump

why bump this thread? Kosovo is still not independant despite the western press saying that it will by end of 2007. Serbia is not threatening to cut off talks to join EU and Herald Tribune said European nations realize that they need Serbia more then Serbia needs them. So Europeans will perhaps allows Kosovo to declare its indepndance but it will be as independant as Taiwan and northern tip of kosovo is in Serbian hands.

Adler
01-27-2008, 09:45 PM
With Kosovo's independence, there will be another carnage there, with not only balkan countries and EU, but also Russia. And when it happens - just hold on to your seats...

Bascule
01-28-2008, 02:37 PM
Pandora's box is opening...hold on your breath.

Lee
01-28-2008, 09:21 PM
why bump this thread? Kosovo is still not independant despite the western press saying that it will by end of 2007. Serbia is not threatening to cut off talks to join EU and Herald Tribune said European nations realize that they need Serbia more then Serbia needs them. So Europeans will perhaps allows Kosovo to declare its indepndance but it will be as independant as Taiwan and northern tip of kosovo is in Serbian hands.

Because there are talks in GM and I asked people to post here instead of GM.

Svetlana.
01-31-2008, 05:30 AM
God, bless Serbia! :worship:

Aloimeh
02-16-2008, 05:01 PM
Pandora's box is opening...hold on your breath.

If Kosovo gets independence, I think Serbia will blockade the province and probably go about getting Republika Srpska. Russia will profit greatly from the new "might makes right" system, so they will most likely recognize Abkhazia and south Ossetia, or at least use them as a bargaining chip vis-a-vis Georgia.

Aloimeh
02-16-2008, 05:17 PM
And I think even if Kosovo gets "independence," it will be very short lived and essentially meaningless. It will be an EU protectorate. Serbia just has to bide the time until a restoration of sovereignty can be achieved. With Serbia blockading the province and unemployment so high, it is only a matter of time before the Albanians turn on NATO/EU, just as they already have against the UN mission. The EU/NATO/UN have mistaken the Albanian bands for the relatively docile (!!!) people of Bosnia and Macedonia, who accept a NATO/EU occupation if it at least means they can live in peace and not be expelled. The "independent" Albanians, after a few years of restlessness against their "protectors," will attack them....and these people, who have no real stake in Kosovo, especially vis-a-vis the Albanians (who are they protecting anyway? The Serbs and the medieval monuments, that's who.), will evacuate. Once the Albanians are finally "indpendent" Serbia will be free to reenter the province and set things in order. And this time that would include incarcerating all KLA filth and deporting all Albanians who are illegal aliens, i.e. the ones who infiltrated the province under Turkish terror from 1876-1912, the ones who entered in 1914-1918, the ones who entered the province in 1941-1945 under Italian fascist rule and the Nazis, the ones who fled from Hoxha and whom Tito welcomed, and the ones who entered after 1999. All that trash needs to be expelled along with their 20-person families which engage in sex-slave trading and narcotics smuggling, and then the province would be restored to order. And they should resettle the Bosnian/Croatian Serb refugees in Kosovo to restore the demograpic balance. The Albanians have had the chance to rule Kosovo several times (Ottoman rule, WWII, Tito years, post-1999) and every time they have grossly abused it to expel the native Serbian population and every single other minority, from the Croats of Janjevo and the Kosovo Jews (there were never many to begin with), to the Gypsies/Roma, Turks, and Gorani. They are the delusional xenophobes who have set out to "reconquer" their Illyria and kill everything non-Albanian when in fact they're Transylvanian goat-herders whom the Hungarians pushed out in around 1000 A.D. and who aren't even in the annals of history until Anna Komnena mentions them in the Alexiad in the 11th century!

Bascule
02-16-2008, 07:43 PM
If Kosovo gets independence, I think Serbia will blockade the province and probably go about getting Republika Srpska. Russia will profit greatly from the new "might makes right" system, so they will most likely recognize Abkhazia and south Ossetia, or at least use them as a bargaining chip vis-a-vis Georgia.

How do you think we can get Republika Srpska?
It's more possible that we'll lose this one also, so the circle of crashing and humiliation of serbs could be finished (don't forget that no one said anything when croats took over Krajina and done the act of etnical cleaning during the Oluja action, actually NATO helped them through).

Aloimeh
02-16-2008, 07:58 PM
How do you think we can get Republika Srpska?
It's more possible that we'll lose this one also, so the circle of crashing and humiliation of serbs could be finished (don't forget that no one said anything when croats took over Krajina and done the act of etnical cleaning during the Oluja action, actually NATO helped them through).

They can't directly. They can only wait for the Muslims to attack, which they will, and then get involved with Russia's assistance in the background. But they can't initiate anything - only more NATO bombs would come, and might come anyway even if Serbia did something once the Muslims attacked. I think the current leaders are too weak to respond, just like Milosevic didn't for Krajina. But a different leader perhaps would not be so timid in response to an attack by the other side. They shouldn't put their trust in the UN, though. The UN/NATO didn't protect them from the Croats in Medak or Krajina, nor did they protect them from the Albanian thugs in Kosovo in 1999 nor in the 2004 pogrom. And, the UN didn't protect the Muslim enclaves in Bosnia either. The UN/NATO is really only looking out for itself and doesn't protect anyone. They claim to be humanitarians but are really just imperialists. You'll see once Kosovo gets it's "independence" - camp Bondsteel will only expand and NATO won't protect anyone from Albanian terror.

Bascule
02-16-2008, 08:41 PM
They can't directly. They can only wait for the Muslims to attack, which they will, and then get involved with Russia's assistance in the background. But they can't initiate anything - only more NATO bombs would come, and might come anyway even if Serbia did something once the Muslims attacked. I think the current leaders are too weak to respond, just like Milosevic didn't for Krajina. But a different leader perhaps would not be so timid in response to an attack by the other side. They shouldn't put their trust in the UN, though. The UN/NATO didn't protect them from the Croats in Medak or Krajina, nor did they protect them from the Albanian thugs in Kosovo in 1999 nor in the 2004 pogrom. And, the UN didn't protect the Muslim enclaves in Bosnia either. The UN/NATO is really only looking out for itself and doesn't protect anyone. They claim to be humanitarians but are really just imperialists. You'll see once Kosovo gets it's "independence" - camp Bondsteel will only expand and NATO won't protect anyone from Albanian terror.

I don't think directly, but they already pronounce the abolition of Republika Srpska and the integration into Bosnian federation, which means that serbs will be overvoted in crucial political stances, and we will get more refugees here in already diminished Serbia..

Aloimeh
02-16-2008, 08:59 PM
I don't think directly, but they already pronounce the abolition of Republika Srpska and the integration into Bosnian federation, which means that serbs will be overvoted in crucial political stances, and we will get more refugees here in already diminished Serbia..

I don't think they've pronounced the abolition. They'd certainly like to. Once they do that, that would certainly be understood as a form of attack and I think RS would be well within its rights to declare independence.

Bascule
02-16-2008, 10:06 PM
Sorry, my bad english, of course they have not pronounced the abolition, but they are going to. And I'm not sure RS could declare independence in that situation.

Black Adam
02-17-2008, 10:25 AM
This whole story was a mess up from the EU, Nato and USA. It just doesn't make sense.

Imagine if the Polish or Indian Immigrants in the UK settle in one Province and become the majority in that Province. Then some hundred years later decide they want independence from the rest of the UK, would that be something anybody with enough sense agree with?

Milosevic blew it by exterminating them, hence the rest of the world felt pity for the Albanian majority in Kosovo and sided with them. Anyways, something this stupid won't last as Serbia isn't done with that province. As soon as EU/Nato/USA leave, the weak nation that is Kosovo will be easily overrun by Serbia. This is a very short-lived independence.

buddyholly
02-17-2008, 01:38 PM
Pandora's box is opening...hold on your breath.

I think to most of us on the outside you all just look the same to us, and we are tired of your petty ethnic squabbling. It seems you are more comfortable living in Middle-Age type fiefdoms, where every village had its own army. None of you should be allowed in the EU until you grow up.

Bascule
02-17-2008, 02:36 PM
I think to most of us on the outside you all just look the same to us, and we are tired of your petty ethnic squabbling. It seems you are more comfortable living in Middle-Age type fiefdoms, where every village had its own army. None of you should be allowed in the EU until you grow up.


Not to all, but to uneducated, uninformed and offensive persons only (as you are).;)
And about this "Middle-Age" type of living: we are very thankful to USA and some EU countries for trying so much to keep us there for good!
And be sure we are not delighted at all to be in such hypocrite comunity as EU became. :wavey:

Adler
02-17-2008, 03:01 PM
Erasmus was right : nations suck (although he didn't use these exact words). And he knew it in 16th century, kudos to that man

Aloimeh
02-17-2008, 03:15 PM
I think to most of us on the outside you all just look the same to us, and we are tired of your petty ethnic squabbling. It seems you are more comfortable living in Middle-Age type fiefdoms, where every village had its own army. None of you should be allowed in the EU until you grow up.

I don't know where you get this attitude. These "petty squabbles" are always instigated/supported from the outside. That's the tragedy of the Balkans. You can always count on some asshole in Turkey, Saudi Arabia, the Vatican, Germany, US, UK, or Russia, to stoke the flames by arming this or that group and bombing someone else. Yugoslavia brought stability to the area. The West broke it into pieces to satisfy the nationalist German client states of Slovenia and Croatia.

As for the EU, a large portion of Serbia's population would prefer union with Russia, not the EU.

Bascule
02-17-2008, 03:18 PM
Erasmus was right : nations suck (although he didn't use these exact words). And he knew it in 16th century, kudos to that man

It seems to me that religion as category became more important lately (to "fight for"), so let's say: religions sucks!

Aloimeh
02-17-2008, 03:28 PM
This whole story was a mess up from the EU, Nato and USA. It just doesn't make sense.

Imagine if the Polish or Indian Immigrants in the UK settle in one Province and become the majority in that Province. Then some hundred years later decide they want independence from the rest of the UK, would that be something anybody with enough sense agree with?

Milosevic blew it by exterminating them, hence the rest of the world felt pity for the Albanian majority in Kosovo and sided with them. Anyways, something this stupid won't last as Serbia isn't done with that province. As soon as EU/Nato/USA leave, the weak nation that is Kosovo will be easily overrun by Serbia. This is a very short-lived independence.

Well, that was my point. It will be a very short lived independence. Kosovo was 50% Albanian and nearly 50% Serbian back in as late as 1899! Now it is 90% Albanian. So who ethnically cleansed whom?

While I disagree with you that Milosevic tried to exterminate them (the numbers, i.e. 3000-5000 dead Albanians out of 1.5-1.8 million, do not tally up to an extermination; and Albanians outside of Kosovo and the KLA area of operations weren't touched), he did come down too heavy-handedly against them. That's exactly what the KLA was going for. He pulled back a bit at the end of 1998 when the KVM mission (William Walker on that) came in. Then there was the Racak massacre hoax (KLA fighters with gunpowder on their hands shot in battle with the police), and then we had Rambouillet. Most people don't know that the Rambouillet "accord" didn't involve any negotiations and contained in fact an Appendix B in which it stipulates that Yugoslavia would have to take NATO ground troups throughout its territory which would be immune from Yugoslav law, etc. This is essentially a convential type of colonial occupation. Btw, "FRY" means all of Yugoslav territory, not only Kosovo.

http://www.state.gov/www/regions/eur/ksvo_rambouillet_text.html

6. a. NATO shall be immune from all legal process, whether civil, administrative, or criminal.

b. NATO personnel, under all circumstances and at all times, shall be immune from the Parties' jurisdiction in respect of any civil, administrative, criminal, or disciplinary offenses which may be committed by them in the FRY. The Parties shall assist States participating in the Operation in the exercise of their jurisdiction over their own nationals.

c. Notwithstanding the above, and with the NATO Commander's express agreement in each case, the authorities in the FRY may exceptionally exercise jurisdiction in such matters, but only in respect of Contractor personnel who are not subject to the jurisdiction of their nation of citizenship.

7. NATO personnel shall be immune from any form of arrest, investigation, or detention by the authorities in the FRY. NATO personnel erroneously arrested or detained shall immediately be turned over to NATO authorities.

8. NATO personnel shall enjoy, together with their vehicles, vessels, aircraft, and equipment, free and unrestricted passage and unimpeded access throughout the FRY including associated airspace and territorial waters. This shall include, but not be limited to, the right of bivouac, maneuver, billet, and utilization of any areas or facilities as required for support, training, and operations.

9. NATO shall be exempt from duties, taxes, and other charges and inspections and custom regulations including providing inventories or other routine customs documentation, for personnel, vehicles, vessels, aircraft, equipment, supplies, and provisions entering, exiting, or transiting the territory of the FRY in support of the Operation.

10. The authorities in the FRY shall facilitate, on a priority basis and with all appropriate means, all movement of personnel, vehicles, vessels, aircraft, equipment, or supplies, through or in the airspace, ports, airports, or roads used. No charges may be assessed against NATO for air navigation, landing, or takeoff of aircraft, whether government-owned or chartered. Similarly, no duties, dues, tolls or charges may be assessed against NATO ships, whether government-owned or chartered, for the mere entry and exit of ports. Vehicles, vessels, and aircraft used in support of the Operation shall not be subject to licensing or registration requirements, nor commercial insurance.

11. NATO is granted the use of airports, roads, rails, and ports without payment of fees, duties, dues, tolls, or charges occasioned by mere use. NATO shall not, however, claim exemption from reasonable charges for specific services requested and received, but operations/movement and access shall not be allowed to be impeded pending payment for such services.

12. NATO personnel shall be exempt from taxation by the Parties on the salaries and emoluments received from NATO and on any income received from outside the FRY.

13. NATO personnel and their tangible moveable property imported into, acquired in, or exported from the FRY shall be exempt from all duties, taxes, and other charges and inspections and custom regulations.

14. NATO shall be allowed to import and to export, free of duty, taxes and other charges, such equipment, provisions, and supplies as NATO shall require for the Operation, provided such goods are for the official use of NATO or for sale to NATO personnel. Goods sold shall be solely for the use of NATO personnel and not transferable to unauthorized persons.

15. The Parties recognize that the use of communications channels is necessary for the Operation. NATO shall be allowed to operate its own internal mail services. The Parties shall, upon simple request, grant all telecommunications services, including broadcast services, needed for the Operation, as determined by NATO. This shall include the right to utilize such means and services as required to assure full ability to communicate, and the right to use all of the electro-magnetic spectrum for this purpose, free of cost. In implementing this right, NATO shall make every reasonable effort to coordinate with and take into account the needs and requirements of appropriate authorities in the FRY.

16. The Parties shall provide, free of cost, such public facilities as NATO shall require to prepare for and execute the Operation. The Parties shall assist NATO in obtaining, at the lowest rate, the necessary utilities, such as electricity, water, gas and other resources, as NATO shall require for the Operation.

17. NATO and NATO personnel shall be immune from claims of any sort which arise out of activities in pursuance of the Operation; however, NATO will entertain claims on an ex gratia basis.

18. NATO shall be allowed to contract directly for the acquisition of goods, services, and construction from any source within and outside the FRY. Such contracts, goods, services, and construction shall not be subject to the payment of duties, taxes, or other charges. NATO may also carry out construction works with their own personnel.

19. Commercial undertakings operating in the FRY only in the service of NATO shall be exempt from local laws and regulations with respect to the terms and conditions of their employment and licensing and registration of employees, businesses, and corporations.

20. NATO may hire local personnel who on an individual basis shall remain subject to local laws and regulations with the exception of labor/employment laws. However, local personnel hired by NATO shall:


a. be immune from legal process in respect of words
spoken or written and all acts performed by them in
their official capacity;
b. be immune from national services and/or national
military service obligations;
c. be subject only to employment terms and
conditions established by NATO; and
d. be exempt from taxation on the salaries and
emoluments paid to them by NATO.

21. In carrying out its authorities under this Chapter, NATO is authorized to detain individuals and, as quickly as possible, turn them over to appropriate officials.

22. NATO may, in the conduct of the Operation, have need to make improvements or modifications to certain infrastructure in the FRY, such as roads, bridges, tunnels, buildings, and utility systems. Any such improvements or modifications of a non-temporary nature shall become part of and in the same ownership as that infrastructure. Temporary improvements or modifications may be removed at the discretion of the NATO Commander, and the infrastructure returned to as near its original condition as possible, fair wear and tear excepted.

Naturally, this was unacceptable, and intentionally so (Albright was itching to bomb Serbia), and when Serbia rejected it we had this great humanitarian bombing.

Rogiman
02-17-2008, 03:30 PM
Another Islamic country :rolleyes:

Well done, europeans. Just let them take over your land...

Bilbo
02-17-2008, 03:36 PM
Kosovo is going to have the same problems like Isreal in the future

Bascule
02-17-2008, 03:45 PM
Naturally, this was unacceptable, and intentionally so (Albright was itching to bomb Serbia), and when Serbia rejected it we had this great humanitarian bombing.

What is ironic is that M. Albright was living in Belgrade as a child and speaks serbian. What so ugly could happened to her to make her wish to bomb the city of her childhood?!:devil:

Bascule
02-17-2008, 03:47 PM
Kosovo is going to have the same problems like Isreal in the future

Explain.:rolleyes:

Aloimeh
02-17-2008, 03:55 PM
What is ironic is that M. Albright was living in Belgrade as a child and speaks serbian. What so ugly could happened to her to make her wish to bomb the city of her childhood?!:devil:

I have heard several stories, probably none of which is exactly true. It couldn't have been an antisemitic environment since in Belgrade antisemitism was practically non-existent. And at any rate, she was Czech until recently, so it may be irrelevant.

One story I've heard is that later in life she had a love affair with a Montenegrin man, who later snubbed her and stayed with his wife.

Another I've heard is that her father stole some precious paintings (some from the 16th century) out of the house of a German industrialist from Prague by the name of Karl Nebrich. I don't know how the Yugoslav government was involved, but it sounds like they were trying to prosecute Josef Korbel or extradite him or some such. Actually, Karl Nebrich's descendant Philipp Harmer sued Albright at some time for the paintings.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/99/03/STimes290399b.html

At any rate, her penchant for Serb-killing has nothing to do with Milosevic or any reality and everything to do with a highly personal agenda of hatred against Serbs and/or Yugoslavia as a state. Hopefully we will discover the true cause before she dies.

Also, did you know that Albright's father was also Condoleeza Rice's mentor?!?

Alleged photos of Albright as a girl in Belgrade and her swimming with her parents in the Danube:

http://www.truthinmedia.org/truthinmedia/images/NatoWar/Albrt-2.gif

http://www.truthinmedia.org/truthinmedia/images/NatoWar/Albrt-3.gif

Adler
02-17-2008, 03:56 PM
Now let's see which countries will establish diplomatic relations with Kosovo

Bascule
02-17-2008, 04:00 PM
Also, did you know that Albright's father was also Condoleeza Rice's mentor?!?

:eek: Ha! No! This is much funnier than I thought so! :worship:

Rogiman
02-17-2008, 04:02 PM
Explain.:rolleyes:Well, since newly formed Kosovo is not only identified with the etnicity of its people but also with their religion Bilbo has a point.

Israel was established to be the home of the jewish people around the world. Our flag contains a jewish symbol, and our anthem discusses the historical craving of the jewish people to their long-lost land. We have a rather large arabic minority living in our country (about 20%), and they are not represented in the flag, anthem, TV etc. They're not allowed to serve in the army and have a very small chance of finding jobs amongst jews (60 people in my company and not a single arab, and I wonder if ANY arabic engineer works for any Israeli software company).

Sounds horrible, but that's the way it is when a certain portion of your population has everything to do with your enemies and nothing to do with you - we just don't trust them, and we don't blame them for that either - it's an unfortunate situation.

This is what the serbians living in Kosovo are up against now.

Adler
02-17-2008, 04:03 PM
Aloimeh is right. It's because of prof. Josef Korbel, Albright's father, Rice abandoned playing the piano and started thinking about making politics

Bascule
02-17-2008, 04:04 PM
Now let's see which countries will establish diplomatic relations with Kosovo

Well, first of all USA and Kosovo will became the 52nd and half state of America, because as an american friend of mine said once: 51. is Israel and the Iraq is not quite there.;)

Bascule
02-17-2008, 04:12 PM
Aloimeh is right. It's because of prof. Josef Korbel, Albright's father, Rice abandoned playing the piano and started thinking about making politics

:haha: Such a pitty for Philharmony!

Aloimeh
02-17-2008, 04:14 PM
They've declared independence. We'll see how long this protectorate lasts. Serbia only has to wait for these clowns to implode once the EU stops lavishing them with gifts.

Aloimeh
02-17-2008, 04:16 PM
This is what the serbians living in Kosovo are up against now.

Now?! We've dealt with it under the Turkish occupation, the Austro-Hungarian occupation, the Bulgarian occupation, the Italian occupation, the Nazi occupation, and now the NATO occupation.

I only hope that the four great churches of Kosovo will survive until Serbia can reclaim what's hers and send the KLA trash into jail and the Albanian immigrants (strictly those who came criminally in the last 100 years and tried to destroy Serbia) back into the Damned Mountains of northern Albania.

Rogiman
02-17-2008, 04:29 PM
Now?! We've dealt with it under the Turkish occupation, the Austro-Hungarian occupation, the Bulgarian occupation, the Italian occupation, the Nazi occupation, and now the NATO occupation.1st of all I'm confused, if you're now living in America then you're 100% american and that's who you should be loyal to IMO.

Other than that, there's a difference between being under foreign occupation and being a minority.

Aloimeh
02-17-2008, 04:54 PM
1st of all I'm confused, if you're now living in America then you're 100% american and that's who you should be loyal to IMO.

Other than that, there's a difference between being under foreign occupation and being a minority.

Who said there's any disloyalty there? I don't agree with what America did in the Balkans in the last 18 or so years. Just because I'm an American doesn't mean I have to agree with all it's policies. I don't agree with our policies with respect to Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel-Palestine, Russia, China and a whole host of other issues. It doesn't mean that I work against my country.

There is no difference between foreign occupation and "being a minority" in this case. NATO is the foreign occupier and the Albanians are their collaborators. We've seen this half a dozen times in only the last 100 years, and we'll see it again.

As you ought to know, Serbs are currently a grotesquely small minority compared to just 100 years ago because of: 1.) an absurd Albanian birth rate (12, 15, 17 children per family), the very highest in Europe and something Serbs could not compete with; 2.) immigration from Albania during the Ottoman rule in which Serb Christians were second class filth and Muslim were the rulers, WWII fascist occupation (read up on the Albanian SS division Skenderbeg which killed 10,000 Serbs and all of Kosovo's Jews), during Tito's rule, and finally after 1999; and 3.) they killed and intimidated Serbs out of the province, not only in WWI and WWII, but also under Tito's rule. Milosevic came to power precisely because of their behavior when they had full autonomy.

Serbs are a miniscule minority in Kosovo on the basis of 100 years of Albanian expulsion, intimidation, and murder. The current "president" of Kosovo is Hashim "The Snake" Thaci, a KLA leader, terrorist, and murderer. Serbs are supposed to trust these people for their security?

1941: Albanian fascist slaughtering a Serb priest

edit: Picture removed because of violent nature

1999: KLA terrorists cut off Serb heads (note the KLA insignia on the arm and cap)

edit: picture removed because of violent nature

I love this one the most: Albright (the refugee in Belgrade) in a tender embrace with Thaci the terrorist/murderer:

http://www.kosovo.net/koss05.jpg

Rogiman
02-17-2008, 04:58 PM
Who said there's any disloyalty there? I don't agree with what America did in the Balkans in the last 18 or so years. Just because I'm an American doesn't mean I have to agree with all it's policies. I don't agree with our policies with respect to Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel-Palestine, Russia, China and a whole host of other issues. It doesn't mean that I work against my country.
That's not what I meant. It was the "we" part I was triggered by.

Black Adam
02-17-2008, 04:59 PM
On the other hand it's not a crime to have babies. They outnumbered the Serbs by out-breeding them which is fair. Terrorism isn't fair though.

belco
02-17-2008, 05:02 PM
http://a738.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/78/l_1d654a5fdeaf05d20b465bf9e1780899.jpg

Bascule
02-17-2008, 05:04 PM
On the other hand it's not a crime to have babies. They outnumbered the Serbs by out-breeding them which is fair. Terrorism isn't fair though.

Of course, it's not a crime. But it's smarter policy then terrorism.

Aloimeh
02-17-2008, 05:07 PM
That's not what I meant. It was the "we" part I was triggered by.

I understand. But sometimes its hard to identify as an American when it comes to Balkans issues since as a child I was told that the Serbs (I'm mostly Serbian and a bit Slovenian by heritage, as you might have guessed) are guilty for everything, new Hitlers, mosters, blablabla... It was a constant barrage of biased reports with horrific allegations and insinuations, most of which turned out to be false, one-sided, or exaggerated. Nobody wanted to hear the Serb side, to even *hear* it, much less agree with it. Family friends turned on my family just because of ethnicity. In school I heard a group of students in the library shout "Kill the Serbs." Can you imagine if someone said "Kill the blacks," "Kill the Asians," or "Kill the Jews." What would the reaction have been then? Expulsion from the school, of course. But apparently these students were learning their hatred from a teacher.

Mention what the Croats and Muslims were doing in WWII both to Serbs and Gypsies and Jews, and that is dismissed as ancient history. So learning about Normandy, Nuremberg, Dresden, Coventry, and the Holocaust is not ancient history (I agree that all of that must be learned in school), yet when Serbs are victims of a Croatian Catholic (with Muslim collaboration) extermination of Serbs in Jasenovac and other death camps - that's ancient history and "petty squabbles"? Mentioning events in the 1990s in which Serbs were victims (Krajina expulsion and atrocities, Kosovo in 1999 and 2004, whole swathes of Bosnia currently ruled by Muslims and Croats) and you usually get a blank stare or some sort of "I don't want excuses comment." Excuses for what?

So, I am a bit sensitive on these issues and no doubt I am biased, but I've really had enough of propaganda and forums such as these are the only place where I can present a few pieces of the other side of the story and an opinion.

Aloimeh
02-17-2008, 05:10 PM
On the other hand it's not a crime to have babies. They outnumbered the Serbs by out-breeding them which is fair. Terrorism isn't fair though.

I'm not saying its a crime. It is a reality nonetheless. Terrorism and collaboration with Nazis and other occupiers is a crime, though, and nobody seems to know about it or even care. It's like the past two world wars and communism never happened.

What we learned from Kosovo is that having a minority with a much greater birth rate (and Muslims in particular have a penchant for this, but Albanians took it to a whole new level) is a recipe for disaster and having your country torn apart.

buddyholly
02-17-2008, 06:32 PM
Why can't we all just get along?

Reading this thread it is clear that you ex-Yugoslavians are determined not to.

buddyholly
02-17-2008, 06:36 PM
Not to all, but to uneducated, uninformed and offensive persons only (as you are).;)


Being from Northern Ireland, I have plenty of education and information on what hating your neighbour, for being different, leads to.

buddyholly
02-17-2008, 06:43 PM
Mention what the Croats and Muslims were doing in WWII both to Serbs and Gypsies and Jews, and that is dismissed as ancient history. So learning about Normandy, Nuremberg, Dresden, Coventry, and the Holocaust is not ancient history (I agree that all of that must be learned in school), yet when Serbs are victims of a Croatian Catholic (with Muslim collaboration) extermination of Serbs in Jasenovac and other death camps - that's ancient history and "petty squabbles"?

Sorry, I would not want you to think that atrocities that have happened in the Balkans are petty in my opinion. My inference was that the reasons for the squabbles (religion and ethnicity) should be considered petty. And of course, the Balkans are not unique in this respect.

RickDaStick
02-17-2008, 07:49 PM
I never seen someone try to spread so much Serbian BS propaganda than this Aloimeh

Aloimeh
02-17-2008, 07:51 PM
I never seen someone try to spread so much Serbian BS propaganda than this Aloimeh

You are free to counter it if you like with your own evidence.

Except...you know it to be true.

RickDaStick
02-17-2008, 08:25 PM
You are free to counter it if you like with your own evidence.

Except...you know it to be true.

To tell you the truth I have no interest anymore to discuss topics like this one and I really haven't read that many posts by you but it seems like you are under the impression that Serbia can do no wrong and everyone is against it. You post a picture of a beheaded Serb, what are you trying to prove there? Why dont we post the thousands and thousands of people beheaded BY SERBS? Of course you will probably continue with some BS on how it was warranted

Aloimeh
02-17-2008, 08:40 PM
To tell you the truth I have no interest anymore to discuss topics like this one and I really haven't read that many posts by you but it seems like you are under the impression that Serbia can do no wrong and everyone is against it. You post a picture of a beheaded Serb, what are you trying to prove there? Why dont we post the thousands and thousands of people beheaded BY SERBS? Of course you will probably continue with some BS on how it was warranted

Not going to stoop to your level. That post was shown to illustrate that the KLA is a war criminal terrorist organization and that the Serbs of Kosovo have no reason to put their trust in them. This is not a comparative war crime analysis. I never denied that some Serbs did awful crimes and killed thousands of people in the 1990s. Nobody can deny it. But there is this constant attempt to deny and justify atrocities when Serbs were being killed by the others. That is the key point. If you ignore Serb victims, it looks like a one-sided genocide. If you include Serb victims, it becomes a very ugly, dirty civil war and you can't point a finger at just one side. That was the point of my posts. But you obviously think that Serbs can't be victims or that they deserve it and that they should have no rights to live in Croatia, Kosovo, or even in Bosnia (they only won their right to live their by making RS and not fleeing as the Croatian and Kosovo Serbs did). That is precisely why we are having these conflicts and this bitterness - the dehumanization by the West of the Serbs and the dismissal of their valid interests.

Svetlana.
02-17-2008, 08:50 PM
The USA is invented and using well the term "double standards" ;)

With such blind policies, in a decade or two Europeans are going to be pushed from their own land... and the funny thing is - there is no one to blame to, but just themselves...

buddyholly
02-17-2008, 11:41 PM
The USA is invented and using well the term "double standards" ;)

With such blind policies, in a decade or two Europeans are going to be pushed from their own land... and the funny thing is - there is no one to blame to, but just themselves...

Who is going to do that? Muslim immigrants?

Svetlana.
02-18-2008, 12:26 AM
It's a shame that US and majority of Europe support individuals similar to one on that picture:

http://i29.tinypic.com/mkz0a1.jpg

RickDaStick
02-18-2008, 12:33 AM
It's a shame that US and majority of Europe support individuals similar to one on that picture:




what about the Serbians in Belgrade stoning embassies and attacking police :confused:

and that could be photoshoped :D

Aloimeh
02-18-2008, 12:37 AM
what about the Serbians in Belgrade stoning embassies and attacking police :confused:

and that could be photoshoped :D

Right...in response to their country being dismembered. Considering that riots of this type take place at WTO and G8 conferences, I really wouldn't consider this as something shocking.

RickDaStick
02-18-2008, 12:39 AM
Right...in response to their country being dismembered. Considering that riots of this type take place at WTO and G8 conferences, I really wouldn't consider this as something shocking.

i agree, but Svetlana thinks this is one-sided :lol:

Bascule
02-20-2008, 12:18 PM
i agree, but Svetlana thinks this is one-sided :lol:

Well, you didn't understand what Aloimeh just said:
"Considering that riots of this type take place at WTO and G8 conferences, I really wouldn't consider this as something shocking."

Why you are saying something like "Djokovic and Ljubicic are not nationalists" to me when I just said that reunion of ex yu would give great results in sport? What does that have to do with nationalism??? I see your bitterness, I can understand, you surely did not have fun in Bosnia during the war and I'm sorry about that, really. But you understand serbian situation much better (then you showed to us), I believe. :wavey:

BgStallion
02-20-2008, 02:32 PM
Ok - I'm not going to point out the times when Serbia stabbed Bulgaria in the back :) It's a part of the past now.

BgStallion
02-20-2008, 02:34 PM
http://a738.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/78/l_1d654a5fdeaf05d20b465bf9e1780899.jpg

Again - how exactly are you serbian? Aren't you from Australia?

Action Jackson
02-20-2008, 02:37 PM
Ok - I'm not going to point out the times when Serbia stabbed Bulgaria in the back :) It's a part of the past now.

Just like there are no Turkish descents in Bulgaria or Greece :)

BgStallion
02-20-2008, 03:08 PM
Just like there are no Turkish descents in Bulgaria or Greece :)

Even though this problem should have been taken care off it's only natural. But Bulgaria did accept that there are turkish minorities on its grounds. And Bulgaria did pay compensations to the turks that were sent back to turkey and is paying their pensions ,whereas Greece hasn't paid anything to the bulgarians sent back to Bulgaria. For ex. the macedonians are actually bulgarians - it's amazing how much propaganda can brain wash people ,but we aren't making a scandle of it - right? :D
But in my previous post I meant the serbo-bulgarian war and the war between the allies after the first balkan war.
My conclusion - the balkan people are very ununited :)

Nathaliia
02-20-2008, 03:12 PM
Kiril, was Alexandrer The Great also Bulgarian? :p

Bascule
02-20-2008, 05:09 PM
Well, Nathaliia, Alexander The Great was macedonian, but greek also. People who live in Former Republic of Yugoslavia Macedonia are not real macedonians from the ancient history. They are mixed of different balcan nations, as bulgarian, serbs and others.

Aloimeh
02-20-2008, 05:52 PM
Ok - I'm not going to point out the times when Serbia stabbed Bulgaria in the back :) It's a part of the past now.

Silly me, I thought it was Bulgaria that turned on Serbia and Greece and attacked them in 1913.

Bulgaria then attacked Serbia during WWI and invaded. My grandfather was nearly executed as a 5 year old by Bulgarian troops. The rest of his village was shot. This was FAR away from Pirot, up in the Soko-Banja/Aleksinac area. There are no Bulgarians there at all. The Bulgarians did the same stuff in WWII (invaded Serbia and Macedonia and collaborated with Nazis).

Please, your excuses are pathetic. With the exception of the Serbo-Bulgarian war, which was a skirmish over a slice of territory which kept on changing due to the altering course of a river, Balkan War 2, WWI, and WWII were all cases of Bulgarian aggressions on Serbia.

BgStallion
02-21-2008, 08:08 PM
Kiril, was Alexandrer The Great also Bulgarian? :p

Well, Nathaliia, Alexander The Great was macedonian, but greek also. People who live in Former Republic of Yugoslavia Macedonia are not real macedonians from the ancient history. They are mixed of different balcan nations, as bulgarian, serbs and others.

I have to say that I agree with bascule on this one.

BgStallion
02-21-2008, 08:15 PM
Silly me, I thought it was Bulgaria that turned on Serbia and Greece and attacked them in 1913.

Bulgaria then attacked Serbia during WWI and invaded. My grandfather was nearly executed as a 5 year old by Bulgarian troops. The rest of his village was shot. This was FAR away from Pirot, up in the Soko-Banja/Aleksinac area. There are no Bulgarians there at all. The Bulgarians did the same stuff in WWII (invaded Serbia and Macedonia and collaborated with Nazis).

Please, your excuses are pathetic. With the exception of the Serbo-Bulgarian war, which was a skirmish over a slice of territory which kept on changing due to the altering course of a river, Balkan War 2, WWI, and WWII were all cases of Bulgarian aggressions on Serbia.
As for the second Balkan war - the serbs and greek made deals behind Bulgaria's back - what would you expect? As one soldier said - while we were going forward from village to village and taking over them the serbian and greek administration was going after us and claiming it for theirs. Let's not forget that Bulgaria was the main engine of this war machine - with over 600,000 bulgarian troops. Greece and Serbia had 400,000 overall.
The western outskirts and macedonia were bulgarian. As for WW2 - after such injustices what would you expect? Bulgaria didn't want anything foreign - only what was rightfully hers.
Again - the balkan people are really ununited and the same goes for Bulgaria :) We're heading for a new age of united Europe so such local conflicts are a thing of the past.

el_croata
02-22-2008, 10:48 PM
I understand. But sometimes its hard to identify as an American when it comes to Balkans issues since as a child I was told that the Serbs (I'm mostly Serbian and a bit Slovenian by heritage, as you might have guessed) are guilty for everything, new Hitlers, mosters, blablabla... It was a constant barrage of biased reports with horrific allegations and insinuations, most of which turned out to be false, one-sided, or exaggerated. Nobody wanted to hear the Serb side, to even *hear* it, much less agree with it. Family friends turned on my family just because of ethnicity. In school I heard a group of students in the library shout "Kill the Serbs." Can you imagine if someone said "Kill the blacks," "Kill the Asians," or "Kill the Jews." What would the reaction have been then? Expulsion from the school, of course. But apparently these students were learning their hatred from a teacher.

Mention what the Croats and Muslims were doing in WWII both to Serbs and Gypsies and Jews, and that is dismissed as ancient history. So learning about Normandy, Nuremberg, Dresden, Coventry, and the Holocaust is not ancient history (I agree that all of that must be learned in school), yet when Serbs are victims of a Croatian Catholic (with Muslim collaboration) extermination of Serbs in Jasenovac and other death camps - that's ancient history and "petty squabbles"? Mentioning events in the 1990s in which Serbs were victims (Krajina expulsion and atrocities, Kosovo in 1999 and 2004, whole swathes of Bosnia currently ruled by Muslims and Croats) and you usually get a blank stare or some sort of "I don't want excuses comment." Excuses for what?

So, I am a bit sensitive on these issues and no doubt I am biased, but I've really had enough of propaganda and forums such as these are the only place where I can present a few pieces of the other side of the story and an opinion.



I don't see here Bleiburg,Lepa Bukva,VUKOVAR, Škabrnja,Srebrenica, Sarajevo, etc.
Looks like Chetniks were just spectators over there.

Aloimeh
02-22-2008, 11:49 PM
I don't see here Bleiburg,Lepa Bukva,VUKOVAR, Škabrnja,Srebrenica, Sarajevo, etc.
Looks like Chetniks were just spectators over there.

I don't know about Lepa Bukva.

Skabrnja: true, that was an atrocity where about 50 Croat civilians were killed by Serb paramilitaries.

Vukovar: Battles between the blockaded JNA and the ZNGs of Tomislav Mercep. There was also the Croatian "Black Legion" and Slavonska Brigada Tigrovi (Slavonian Tiger Brigade). I'm sure the Serbs had their own awful paramilitaries there as well (Arkan? White Eagles?). The Croats perpetrated a lot of intentional atrocities over Serb civilians and POWs early in the siege. After the town fell, Serb paramilitaries perpetrated counteratrocities over Croat civilians. The massacre of 200 at Ovcara, while reprehensible since it was a killing of POWs, was not an execution of civilians. It seems that most of the Ovcara victims were Croatian paramilitaries who, after Vukovar fell, went into Vukovar hospital and put on hospital gowns, pajamas, and casts to appear as if they were patients. This was done in collusion with the Croat nationalist head of the hospital, Vesna Bosanac. It doesn't excuse it, but it does show that it's not quite as it has been portrayed. If you want to see a bit more about the Serb side of Vukovar, search "Vojin Dabic" or "Ksenija Lukic" in Google and a website should come up.

Srebrenica: more complicated than stated in the media. Naser Oric, Muslim commander from 1992-1995, used the "safe haven" (which was supposed to be demilitarized) as a base for launching attacks on Serb villages. He destroyed about 70 Serb villages and killed about 1000 Serb soldiers and civilians (including women and especially elderly). The 1995 deaths of 3000 Muslim men (whether by execution or ambushes as they were fleeing to Tuzla) was a horrific atrocity, but I believe it was inspired by the earlier behavior of the Muslims. It's unfortunate that Srebrenica has been abused by NATO to justify ex-post-facto its behavior, and that more do not know of the earlier events around the enclave, which would set the 1995 atrocity in better context. I don't consider it genocide, though, which is something the NATO/ICTY axis has been pushing.

Sarajevo: the siege was reprehensible, no doubt about it. What people don't discuss is Muslim actions against Serbs in Sarajevo, which included massacres and detention camps (Viktor Bubanj barracks, central prison, etc.). My father's best friend was kidnapped by Sarajevo Muslims in 1992 and killed. It is believed that several thousand Serbs in Sarajevo died in this way. The criminals who did these deeds are Musan Topalovic "Caco," Ramiz Delalic "Celo," Ismet Bajramovic "Celo 2," Jusuf Prazina "Juka," and others. On Mt. Trebevic in Sarajevo is a limestone pit called Kazani in which hundreds of Serbs were dragged off by Caco & co. and liquidated and thrown into the pit. Furthermore, some incidents in Sarajevo were actually staged by the Muslims, such as the Markale and Vase Miskina "massacres." Ballistics analyses indicate that these two events could not have been perpetrated by a Serb projectile, and appear to have been due to explosively planted in the marketplace. The expected reaction by the West (and that's why the Muslims did it) was air strikes on the Bosnian Serbs.

Bleiburg: I have no idea where you came up with this one. Bleiburg was perpetrated mostly by Slovenian Partisans. Political responsibility for the executions lies with Mitja Ribicic and Zdenka Kidric, both of them Slovenes. And the Chetniks were actually among the victims at Bleiburg, since the Partisans treated them just like the Ustase and Belogardejci.

Btw, I don't see you mentioning any Croat deeds in Croatia and Bosnia: Medak, Gospic, Zadar, Pakrac, Osijek, Blijesak, Oluja, etc. in Croatia and Lasva Valley, Mostar, Capljina, Mrkonjic Grad, Orasje, etc. in Bosnia. Perhaps you're a bit biased here, too.

mediter
02-23-2008, 01:41 PM
Srebrenica: more complicated than stated in the media. Naser Oric, Muslim commander from 1992-1995, used the "safe haven" (which was supposed to be demilitarized) as a base for launching attacks on Serb villages. He destroyed about 70 Serb villages and killed about 1000 Serb soldiers and civilians (including women and especially elderly). The 1995 deaths of 3000 Muslim men (whether by execution or ambushes as they were fleeing to Tuzla) was a horrific atrocity, but I believe it was inspired by the earlier behavior of the Muslims.

what was the percentage of muslims in eastern bosnia in normal times? how many muslims were left in the east after the war? and there was no ethnic cleansing before oric began his raids? This who started it can go on and on.

There is perversion in your argument.A person who is committed to justice and fairplay only worries about facts. He does not think a person belonging to a religion or race deserves to die what another members of his religion or race did. That's precisely the problem i have seen with the balkans. I can understand ordinary people anywhere are no angels or idealists. but that does not mean its right.

You are conveniently ignoring the factor of bigotry that immunes bigots to the loss of life when victims belongs to a community he hates.

And i have read the bigoted views of mladic and karadzic time and again. is it rocket science to determine they will be capable of something like this?

if i remember that time of 1995, i can recall the danger to srebenica's men was predicted widely in the media and it was carried out blatantly in full eyes of the world. .

and you wonder why nato was compelled to react after that?
Amazing.

Again the figure quoted is around 8000 men killed.not 3000

Okonsky
02-23-2008, 03:13 PM
I don't see here Bleiburg,Lepa Bukva,VUKOVAR, Škabrnja,Srebrenica, Sarajevo, etc.
Looks like Chetniks were just spectators over there.

Weekness is other name of stupidity.

Okonsky
02-23-2008, 03:15 PM
Again the figure quoted is around 8000 men killed.not 3000

Killing is killing, 3.000, 8.000 or just one!

Bascule
02-23-2008, 05:54 PM
what was the percentage of muslims in eastern bosnia in normal times? how many muslims were left in the east after the war? and there was no ethnic cleansing before oric began his raids? This who started it can go on and on.

There is perversion in your argument.A person who is committed to justice and fairplay only worries about facts. He does not think a person belonging to a religion or race deserves to die what another members of his religion or race did. That's precisely the problem i have seen with the balkans. I can understand ordinary people anywhere are no angels or idealists. but that does not mean its right.

You are conveniently ignoring the factor of bigotry that immunes bigots to the loss of life when victims belongs to a community he hates.

And i have read the bigoted views of mladic and karadzic time and again. is it rocket science to determine they will be capable of something like this?

if i remember that time of 1995, i can recall the danger to srebenica's men was predicted widely in the media and it was carried out blatantly in full eyes of the world. .

and you wonder why nato was compelled to react after that?
Amazing.

Again the figure quoted is around 8000 men killed.not 3000

As I know, more than 7000 muslims are murdered (some said 6000, some 8000), and more than 3000 serbs before that. Horrible anyway.

Aloimeh
02-23-2008, 06:05 PM
what was the percentage of muslims in eastern bosnia in normal times? how many muslims were left in the east after the war? and there was no ethnic cleansing before oric began his raids? This who started it can go on and on.

There is perversion in your argument.A person who is committed to justice and fairplay only worries about facts. He does not think a person belonging to a religion or race deserves to die what another members of his religion or race did. That's precisely the problem i have seen with the balkans. I can understand ordinary people anywhere are no angels or idealists. but that does not mean its right.

You are conveniently ignoring the factor of bigotry that immunes bigots to the loss of life when victims belongs to a community he hates.

And i have read the bigoted views of mladic and karadzic time and again. is it rocket science to determine they will be capable of something like this?

if i remember that time of 1995, i can recall the danger to srebenica's men was predicted widely in the media and it was carried out blatantly in full eyes of the world. .

and you wonder why nato was compelled to react after that?
Amazing.

Again the figure quoted is around 8000 men killed.not 3000

We could go on and on about this, so I'm not going to. What was the percentage of Serbs in central Bosnia before the war? In Mostar? Gorazde? Tuzla? Zenica? Sarajevo?

I will believe the 8000 figure when they unearth 8000 corpses. Until then, I'm sticking with what's been found and identified so far - 3000. There's been too much propaganda surrounding the whole event, on both sides. Besides, it doesn't matter, it's a very large number either way.

NATO was not consistent if it was "compelled" by Srebrenica but not by Krajina. They helped the Croats carry out that atrocity.

Bascule
02-23-2008, 08:26 PM
We could go on and on about this, so I'm not going to. What was the percentage of Serbs in central Bosnia before the war? In Mostar? Gorazde? Tuzla? Zenica? Sarajevo?

I will believe the 8000 figure when they unearth 8000 corpses. Until then, I'm sticking with what's been found and identified so far - 3000. There's been too much propaganda surrounding the whole event, on both sides. Besides, it doesn't matter, it's a very large number either way.

NATO was not consistent if it was "compelled" by Srebrenica but not by Krajina. They helped the Croats carry out that atrocity.

Aloimeh, where can I find this informations? You have some link?

Aloimeh
02-23-2008, 08:53 PM
Aloimeh, where can I find this informations? You have some link?

http://www.srebrenica-report.com/politics.htm

http://www.counterpunch.org/johnstone10122005.html

Oh, and another thing, the figure of 3000 dead Serbs in Srebrenica is equally grossly inflated. It's Serb counter-propaganda due to Muslim inflation of 8000 victims. Most likely, somewhere in the range of 1000 Serb POWs and civilians were killed in the Srebrenica region.

The whole numbers game disgusts me because it's being abused for political ends. Srebrenica was not a genocide. You do not commit genocide in one village and you especially do not commit genocide if you spare women, children, and elderly and put them on buses to Tuzla. The expulsion and the massacre of men of military age is certainly an awful war crime, but not genocide.

Furthermore, I am not convinced that all or even most the Srebrenica Muslim victims were civilians. As it mentions in the two above links, it seems that Muslims broke through Serb lines to flee to Tuzla (because they feared being massacred, because Naser Oric's activities had driven the Bosnian Serbs in the area into an unusually hateful (considering how much hate there already was) rage). It may be that large groups were killed in ambushes or battles with the Bosnian Serbs as they fled to Tuzla. Those who were captured may very well have been executed.

The way I see it, it's more likely to have been ambushes and executions of POWs rather than a massacre of civilians as it is being portrayed by NATO and the Muslims.

Bascule
02-23-2008, 09:41 PM
Thanks, Aloimeh. I wanted before to read something Diana Johnstone wrote.

el_croata
02-24-2008, 01:53 AM
Weekness is other name of stupidity.


hm, weekness????
translation?

Okonsky
02-24-2008, 02:06 AM
hm, weekness????
translation?

el_croata

el_croata
02-24-2008, 02:13 AM
I don't know about Lepa Bukva.

Skabrnja: true, that was an atrocity where about 50 Croat civilians were killed by Serb paramilitaries.

Vukovar: Battles between the blockaded JNA and the ZNGs of Tomislav Mercep. There was also the Croatian "Black Legion" and Slavonska Brigada Tigrovi (Slavonian Tiger Brigade). I'm sure the Serbs had their own awful paramilitaries there as well (Arkan? White Eagles?). The Croats perpetrated a lot of intentional atrocities over Serb civilians and POWs early in the siege. After the town fell, Serb paramilitaries perpetrated counteratrocities over Croat civilians. The massacre of 200 at Ovcara, while reprehensible since it was a killing of POWs, was not an execution of civilians. It seems that most of the Ovcara victims were Croatian paramilitaries who, after Vukovar fell, went into Vukovar hospital and put on hospital gowns, pajamas, and casts to appear as if they were patients. This was done in collusion with the Croat nationalist head of the hospital, Vesna Bosanac. It doesn't excuse it, but it does show that it's not quite as it has been portrayed. If you want to see a bit more about the Serb side of Vukovar, search "Vojin Dabic" or "Ksenija Lukic" in Google and a website should come up.

Srebrenica: more complicated than stated in the media. Naser Oric, Muslim commander from 1992-1995, used the "safe haven" (which was supposed to be demilitarized) as a base for launching attacks on Serb villages. He destroyed about 70 Serb villages and killed about 1000 Serb soldiers and civilians (including women and especially elderly). The 1995 deaths of 3000 Muslim men (whether by execution or ambushes as they were fleeing to Tuzla) was a horrific atrocity, but I believe it was inspired by the earlier behavior of the Muslims. It's unfortunate that Srebrenica has been abused by NATO to justify ex-post-facto its behavior, and that more do not know of the earlier events around the enclave, which would set the 1995 atrocity in better context. I don't consider it genocide, though, which is something the NATO/ICTY axis has been pushing.

Sarajevo: the siege was reprehensible, no doubt about it. What people don't discuss is Muslim actions against Serbs in Sarajevo, which included massacres and detention camps (Viktor Bubanj barracks, central prison, etc.). My father's best friend was kidnapped by Sarajevo Muslims in 1992 and killed. It is believed that several thousand Serbs in Sarajevo died in this way. The criminals who did these deeds are Musan Topalovic "Caco," Ramiz Delalic "Celo," Ismet Bajramovic "Celo 2," Jusuf Prazina "Juka," and others. On Mt. Trebevic in Sarajevo is a limestone pit called Kazani in which hundreds of Serbs were dragged off by Caco & co. and liquidated and thrown into the pit. Furthermore, some incidents in Sarajevo were actually staged by the Muslims, such as the Markale and Vase Miskina "massacres." Ballistics analyses indicate that these two events could not have been perpetrated by a Serb projectile, and appear to have been due to explosively planted in the marketplace. The expected reaction by the West (and that's why the Muslims did it) was air strikes on the Bosnian Serbs.

Bleiburg: I have no idea where you came up with this one. Bleiburg was perpetrated mostly by Slovenian Partisans. Political responsibility for the executions lies with Mitja Ribicic and Zdenka Kidric, both of them Slovenes. And the Chetniks were actually among the victims at Bleiburg, since the Partisans treated them just like the Ustase and Belogardejci.

Btw, I don't see you mentioning any Croat deeds in Croatia and Bosnia: Medak, Gospic, Zadar, Pakrac, Osijek, Blijesak, Oluja, etc. in Croatia and Lasva Valley, Mostar, Capljina, Mrkonjic Grad, Orasje, etc. in Bosnia. Perhaps you're a bit biased here, too.

Nice work.
Lot of things could be found on internet these days.
Not biased at all, because each side has their own truth.

Numbers and reports vary depending who collected them, released them, when and where, etc.
Serbs are "always" victims, but have great lobby (probably second best after jews) and diplomation, and that just denies every attempt to prove opposite.

el_croata
02-24-2008, 02:15 AM
weekness?
dude, in which dictionary you saw that word

Bascule
02-24-2008, 09:52 AM
Nice work.
Lot of things could be found on internet these days.
Not biased at all, because each side has their own truth.

Numbers and reports vary depending who collected them, released them, when and where, etc.
Serbs are "always" victims, but have great lobby (probably second best after jews) and diplomation, and that just denies every attempt to prove opposite.

Dude, if we had great lobby like you had, we would have Krajina now and Kosovo would be ethnical cleaned and serbian.;)