Balkans Region Politics Discussion [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Balkans Region Politics Discussion

Jaap
09-24-2007, 11:57 PM
Will be in the UK papers tommorrow.

Bascule
09-24-2007, 11:59 PM
Wtf did you mean?

Burrow
09-24-2007, 11:59 PM
Do you ever talk about something good?

zadle69
09-25-2007, 12:00 AM
many people are allegedly probably offered only the dumb ones would take it or desperate allegedly.

ExcaliburII
09-25-2007, 12:01 AM
was he offered? or did he offer?

KalleOnAir
09-25-2007, 12:01 AM
Why only in the UK papers?

Jaap
09-25-2007, 12:02 AM
He was offered to throw a match in St Petersburg last year but did not attend the tournament.

Jaap
09-25-2007, 12:02 AM
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,3-2007440455,00.html

Novak offered £110k to lose

By CHARLIE WYETT
September 25, 2007
THE SUN

COMMENT ON THIS STORY


WORLD No 3 Novak Djokovic was offered £110,000 to throw a tennis match, SunSport can reveal.

Serbian Djokovic, a finalist at the US Open this month, was stunned to be offered the massive sum to lose in the first round of a tournament in St Petersburg and flatly refused to get involved.

But the revelation will shock the game after Tim Henman’s admission that he is aware of players being approached to fix matches.

SUN BET

ATP tennis chiefs have launched a betting probe into strange results. There is no suggestion the organisers of the St Petersburg tournament last year were involved and Serbian Djokovic, 20, did not attend the event.

But the ATP are focusing their investigations on betting scams in both Russia and the Ukraine.

A spokesman said: “We do not comment on investigations or whether players have supplied us with information. But we have an anti-corruption programme and while no players have been charged we are not resting on our laurels.”

The ATP are looking at a gambling scandal surrounding Nikolay Davydenko’s loss to Martin Vassallo Arguello in Poland in August. The Russian withdrew injured in the third set but has insisted he is innocent.

Just-retired Henman said: “I never experienced it but, listening to the players, it seems it goes on.”

A Djokovic spokesman insisted the player had received no official offer to play in St Petersburg.

He said: “Novak was contracted to play in Basel at the same time but withdrew through injury.”

Bascule
09-25-2007, 12:03 AM
Well, you can see, Burrow, he's 84, he's senile.

Jaap
09-25-2007, 12:03 AM
Do you ever talk about something good?

Shut up.

Allstar
09-25-2007, 12:04 AM
Absolute bollocks from the sun. Clearly made up with no substance. They probably did it themselves to create a story :lol:

Jaap
09-25-2007, 12:04 AM
Well, you can see, Burrow, he's 84, he's senile.

You can shut your fucking mouth as well, mug.

Bascule
09-25-2007, 12:09 AM
You're really rude, I was joking! Anyway, you put that 84, not me.

Jaap
09-25-2007, 12:10 AM
You're really rude, I was joking! Anyway, you put that 84, not me.

Ok, ok. Thought you was taking the mick out of me. Forgot I put 84 as my age. :p

l_mac
09-25-2007, 12:11 AM
Why would Nole be offered money to throw a match at a tournament he wasn't even playing in? :lol:

Allstar
09-25-2007, 12:13 AM
Why would Nole be offered money to throw a match at a tournament he wasn't even playing in? :lol:


The sun didnt give this story any thought at all it seems, not that they give any other news much thought either

R.Federer
09-25-2007, 12:15 AM
So did he turn it down because he wanted more? :confused:

Jaap
09-25-2007, 12:15 AM
He may have been offered it a few months before the event.

Anyway, they found someone to throw a match in the end - his name is HT Lee who collasped inexplicably to little know Russian - Kravchuk.

adee-gee
09-25-2007, 12:28 AM
Absolute bollocks from the sun. Clearly made up with no substance. They probably did it themselves to create a story :lol:
A lot of people scoff at The Sun. Yes, it's a dodgy tabloid that likes to gossip, but it's actually surprisingly reliable for their sports stories.

R.Federer
09-25-2007, 12:45 AM
He may have been offered it a few months before the event.

Anyway, they found someone to throw a match in the end - his name is HT Lee who collasped inexplicably to little know Russian - Kravchuk.
Hyung Taik Lee or some other HT Lee?

adee-gee
09-25-2007, 12:51 AM
Hyung Taik Lee or some other HT Lee?

I believe he's talking about Harry Thomas Lee :)

Stensland
09-25-2007, 01:14 AM
why doesn't the atp just set up traps or something like that, fake-approaching players to fix matches and if they say yes, you got 'em.

BalkanBoy
09-25-2007, 01:20 AM
Hmmm some of you Croats never change, always tryng to find a bad side on Serbs. Try healing your inferiority complex, it makes all Croats look bad.

Stensland
09-25-2007, 01:41 AM
The bad thing for them is that Serbia is getting stronger and stronger, day by day. Economicaly, Politicaly and in Sports

uhm...where'd you get that from? in a couple of years croatia will join the european union while serbia just stated a couple of days ago explicitly that it favours russia over western europe. by then croatia will be taking in loads of serbs who wanna work in a fast developing nation like croatia, trust me.

once serbia decides to avoid the eu, their economic prosperity is at stake. and apparently they already did decide.

BalkanBoy
09-25-2007, 01:55 AM
uhm...where'd you get that from? in a couple of years croatia will join the european union while serbia just stated a couple of days ago explicitly that it favours russia over western europe. by then croatia will be taking in loads of serbs who wanna work in a fast developing nation like croatia, trust me.

once serbia decides to avoid the eu, their economic prosperity is at stake. and apparently they already did decide.

Rrainer, I'm following the situation in Balkans alot. It's true that Croatia is very close to the EU and I'm happy for them. On another note Serbia had economical sanctions for 15 years while Croatia had was freed after 4 years) Plus on that NATO bombed the civilian infrastuctures in Serbia and destroyed alot of economical strenghts in the Country. Still Serbia stands and it has the second highest wages after Croatia in the region, bigger than Bulgarian and Romanian which are no in EU.

Last year, Serbia had direct investments of 5,5 billions dollars while Croatia 3,6 billions. Serbian economic growth is 7% year and Croatia's is 4,3% . So things are getting better even if the Kosovo problem is still not resolved. Oh and some Indian firm just announced an Investment of 1 billion USD in a IT park in Serbia. See here: http://www.b92.net/eng/news/economy-article.php?yyyy=2007&mm=09&dd=24&nav_category=107&nav_id=44016

BalkanBoy
09-25-2007, 02:02 AM
Well maybe you should learn not to assume and you say i post hate on everything related to Serbia? Are you kidding me? The only thread involving serbia that i can remember posting in was the other day when I say who gives a fuck between a dead rubber between 2 journeyman.

My little brother could give a better answer than that and you should just tell that to 90% of people here who assume you're directly from Croatia just by looking at your posts. :smash:

RickDaStick
09-25-2007, 02:04 AM
My little brother could give a better answer than that and you should tell that to 90% of people here who assume you're directly from Croatia just by looking at your posts. :smash:

One question, If Serbia is as of great place as you'd like us to think, then why are you in Canada?

Stensland
09-25-2007, 02:09 AM
Rrainer, I'm following the situation in Balkans alot. It's true that Croatia is very close to the EU and I'm happy for them. On another note Serbia had economical sanctions for 15 years while Croatia had was freed after 4 years) Plus on that NATO bombed the civilian infrastuctures in Serbia and destroyed alot of economical strenghts in the Country. Still Serbia stands and it has the second highest wages after Croatia in the region, bigger than Bulgarian and Romanian which are no in EU.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

seems like you wanna push a serbian-friendly agenda on here.

and it doesn't matter how, why and for what reason croatia is better atm, fact is: it is, and i'm pretty sure serbia's not gonna catch up mid-term.

BalkanBoy
09-25-2007, 02:12 AM
One question, If Serbia is as of great place as you'd like us to think, then why are you in Canada?

I said it was getting better from what it was after NATO illegal bombing and 15 years of sanctions and I'm in Canada because of events that happened in Bosnia.

Johnny Groove
09-25-2007, 02:17 AM
IL is Bosnian, not Croat

Aloimeh
09-25-2007, 04:36 AM
uhm...where'd you get that from? in a couple of years croatia will join the european union while serbia just stated a couple of days ago explicitly that it favours russia over western europe. by then croatia will be taking in loads of serbs who wanna work in a fast developing nation like croatia, trust me.

once serbia decides to avoid the eu, their economic prosperity is at stake. and apparently they already did decide.

Well, Serbia did not have the convenience of getting support from former Nazi allies (masters?). As a German, I would expect you to know just how much diplomatic and political support Croatia got from Germany, Austria, and the Vatican. At any rate, even before that Croatia, having been in the Austro-Hungarian empire for a thousand years, was more economically developed than Serbia, which had been under Ottoman rule for five centuries. And given that Western Europe decided 15 years ago to pick sides against Serbia (whatever the conflict, Serbs were always to blame), maybe Serbia can only turn to Russia/China/India, which although not necessarily the better choice economically they are at least not trying to rip off a chunk of Serbia's territory.

I don't like it when sports forums go down the path of politics, but it was the IvanLjubicic fellow who was first making snide bigoted comments against "the corrupt Serb Djokovic".

Aloimeh
09-25-2007, 04:38 AM
IL is Bosnian, not Croat

No such thing. If he's a "Bosnian" he is either a Serb, a Croat, or a "Bosniak" (formerly known as Muslims, i.e. religiously Muslim Serbs and Croats). Given the tone of his posts, I'd say he's Croat or Bosniak.

It doesn't matter; he was the one who started with the ethnic putdowns.

El Legenda
09-25-2007, 04:56 AM
No such thing. If he's a "Bosnian" he is either a Serb, a Croat, or a "Bosniak" (formerly known as Muslims, i.e. religiously Muslim Serbs and Croats). Given the tone of his posts, I'd say he's Croat or Bosniak.

It doesn't matter; he was the one who started with the ethnic putdowns.

In the English-speaking world, Bosniaks are also referred to as Bosnians or Bosnian Muslims. The term Bosnian is somewhat imprecise in this context, as it is used to denote all inhabitants of Bosnia regardless of ethnic origin (i.e. not only Bosniaks, but also Bosnian Serbs, Bosnian Croats or any other group in the country

Aloimeh
09-25-2007, 05:24 AM
In the English-speaking world, Bosniaks are also referred to as Bosnians or Bosnian Muslims. The term Bosnian is somewhat imprecise in this context, as it is used to denote all inhabitants of Bosnia regardless of ethnic origin (i.e. not only Bosniaks, but also Bosnian Serbs, Bosnian Croats or any other group in the country

I would remind you that calling the Muslim population of Bosnia "Bosnian" with no other qualifier is insulting to Serbs and Croats of Bosnia. It is not because they generally identify with this name (most don't) but because it implies (at least for those not so well informed) that they are not indiginous to Bosnia, that they are explants from Serbia or Croatia, and that Bosnian Muslims have a precedence in the region. Nothing could be further from the truth; on the contrary, it is quite the opposite, the Muslim population having been formed by religious conversion from Christian (Orthodox, Catholic, and Bogomil) Serb and Croat populations under the Ottoman empire more than 800 years since the arrival of the Slavs in the region (arrival was 600s A.D., Christianization was 800s-900s, and Islamization was 1400s).

A similar principle applies to the Swiss and the Belgians. Calling the French speakers of Belgium "Belgians" and calling the Flemish "Flemish" implies that the latter do not have a much a claim to Belgium as the former. Likewise with the Swiss and the German, French, and Italian populations. And this is also why Greece finds it so hard to swallow the fact that FYROM calls itself Macedonia and the Macedonian Slavs call themselves "Macedonian" as it implies that Greek Macedonians are explants. This is further aggravated by the fact that the Greek population of Macedonia precedes the Slavic by at least a millenium.

BalkanBoy
09-25-2007, 06:02 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

seems like you wanna push a serbian-friendly agenda on here.

and it doesn't matter how, why and for what reason croatia is better atm, fact is: it is, and i'm pretty sure serbia's not gonna catch up mid-term.

Hah I'm not pushing anything, I'm showing you facts. I never said Serbia is more developed than Croatia but the gap is getting smaller, day by day. Plus on that, the link you posted shows figures from 2005 and clearly says "Kosovo included" which is the poorest region of Europe because all their efforts (Albanians) went to separatist movements instead of making their life better and working for their country.

FDI Croatia 3,6 billion per yearhttp://www.privredni-vjesnik.hr/?A=I&SIF=00004&BR=003497&DA=20070924
FDI Serbia FDI (Foreign Direct Investment) in 2006 was $5.85 billion or €4.5 billion http://www.siepa.sr.gov.yu/site/en/home/

Serbia GDP Growth Q1 = 8,7 % but is expected to be higher than 7% for the whole year. http://webrzs.statserb.sr.gov.yu/axd/en/index1.php?SifraVesti=187&Link=

Foreign Trade figures are also up 40%

Sorry but this is facts and alot of German companies are now investing there too. In the end, it's all good for the region because it has alot of potential but it's just that events in past ruined it.

BalkanBoy
09-25-2007, 06:30 AM
Well, Serbia did not have the convenience of getting support from former Nazi allies (masters?). As a German, I would expect you to know just how much diplomatic and political support Croatia got from Germany, Austria, and the Vatican. At any rate, even before that Croatia, having been in the Austro-Hungarian empire for a thousand years, was more economically developed than Serbia, which had been under Ottoman rule for five centuries. And given that Western Europe decided 15 years ago to pick sides against Serbia (whatever the conflict, Serbs were always to blame), maybe Serbia can only turn to Russia/China/India, which although not necessarily the better choice economically they are at least not trying to rip off a chunk of Serbia's territory.

I don't like it when sports forums go down the path of politics, but it was the IvanLjubicic fellow who was first making snide bigoted comments against "the corrupt Serb Djokovic".

You're absolutly right

Action Jackson
09-25-2007, 07:44 AM
Surprise someone complaining about a fix and the guy wasn't at the event or even scheduled to play there.

groundstroke
09-25-2007, 07:46 AM
Link?

ezekiel
09-25-2007, 08:40 AM
this story sucks , where is tennis when you need it yet I wonder what STD thinks about this ???

TenHound
09-25-2007, 08:56 AM
If I may be so rude as to return this thread to its original topic. This from Tueday's Guardian - curious that it's totally unattributed:

Djokovic was offered £110,000 to throw match


Tuesday September 25, 2007
The Guardian


[/I]Novak Djokovic, the world No3, claims he was offered £110,000 to lose in the first round of a tournament in St Petersburg last year.

The 20-year-old Serb flatly refused the offer and did not even attend the tournament. There is no suggestion that the organisers of the tournament were involved although the ATP is focusing its investigations in Russia and Ukraine.

The revelation comes after the just retired Tim Henman warned the authorities to be "very vigilant" about the dangers of gambling in tennis. "I personally have never experienced it but, listening to the players talking, it seems it goes on," the former British No1 said. "Tennis doesn't want to be associated with that."[/I]

bjurra
09-25-2007, 09:11 AM
Surprise someone complaining about a fix and the guy wasn't at the event or even scheduled to play there.

Assumed that the story is true, he was probably offered the money before his scheduled was finalized.

Action Jackson
09-25-2007, 09:20 AM
Assumed that the story is true, he was probably offered the money before his scheduled was finalized.

If the story is true, I doubt the betting syndicates are that stupid, they would know who is playing where and when.

bjurra
09-25-2007, 09:31 AM
If the story is true, I doubt the betting syndicates are that stupid, they would know who is playing where and when.

What's so stupid about approaching Nole a month or so in advance and telling him that he could make 150000 euro by coming to St Petersburg and losing in the first round?

Action Jackson
09-25-2007, 09:39 AM
What's so stupid about approaching Nole a month or so in advance and telling him that he could make 150000 euro by coming to St Petersburg and losing in the first round?

Well it's easier to get Volandri or Vassallo Arguello as they know they will be playing a clay MM event somewhere along the line.

So betting syndicates decide the players schedule now? It's easier for them and less risky to target players on site when they are at the smaller venues, especially in the case when the surfaces are the same for the tournaments that week.

bjurra
09-25-2007, 09:52 AM
Well it's easier to get Volandri or Vassallo Arguello as they know they will be playing a clay MM event somewhere along the line.

So betting syndicates decide the players schedule now? It's easier for them and less risky to target players on site when they are at the smaller venues, especially in the case when the surfaces are the same for the tournaments that week.

You may not know anything about betting (obviously) but I assume you know enough about tennis to figure out that you're not going to make much money betting against Volandri and V-A on carpet. You could however make a fortune betting against Nole.

The betting mafia is most likely well organized so they might go to the Slams (in this case US Open) and start approaching players there for deals in upcoming MM tournaments. There is no extra risk in that.

Action Jackson
09-25-2007, 10:03 AM
You may not know anything about betting (obviously) but I assume you know enough about tennis to figure out that you're not going to make much money betting against Volandri and V-A on carpet. You could however make a fortune betting against Nole.

The betting mafia is most likely well organized so they might go to the Slams (in this case US Open) and start approaching players there for deals in upcoming MM tournaments. There is no extra risk in that.

There was no reference to Volandri or Che Vassallo on carpet, in fact I specifically mentioned with them clay and nothing else.

The minions are the ones who do the dirty work, they would need to know what event they are playing at. If they know in advance, then the better for them and there are players who always return to certain events. Once the lists are out and then they go and try and influence them to fix at the respective event, that wouldn't be surprising.

It's not like football, where you know what fixtures there are well in advance.

bjurra
09-25-2007, 10:41 AM
There was no reference to Volandri or Che Vassallo on carpet, in fact I specifically mentioned with them clay and nothing else.

The minions are the ones who do the dirty work, they would need to know what event they are playing at. If they know in advance, then the better for them and there are players who always return to certain events. Once the lists are out and then they go and try and influence them to fix at the respective event, that wouldn't be surprising.

It's not like football, where you know what fixtures there are well in advance.

Well, once the clay season is over, you need new players to pay your rent (and your MB and your Armani suit). Last year, Kolya was kind enough to help out.

Still dont understand why the Nole story doesnt make sense to you...

Action Jackson
09-25-2007, 10:49 AM
Well, once the clay season is over, you need new players to pay your rent (and your MB and your Armani suit). Last year, Kolya was kind enough to help out.

Still dont understand why the Nole story doesnt make sense to you...

Kolya does it all year round, cause he is generous. The ones with nothing to play for at the end of season are liable, though Berdych made a very simple point. Once you say yes, this is a crap tournament, then it's hard to get out of that arrangement.

Actually I have made my position clear. Nole being approached not surprising, the fact that he was not even scheduled for the event. Well they got Lee instead for St.Petersburg, so it worked out.

Peoples
09-25-2007, 12:48 PM
Stupid kid should have taken the cash, now he'll face the consequences from the Russian mobsters ;)

savesthedizzle
09-25-2007, 02:28 PM
this story sucks , where is tennis when you need it yet I wonder what STD thinks about this ???

I wonder when you're going to stop being so obsessed with me. :shrug: You can't even read an article about Nole without thinking about me. I'm flattered you're so in love with me, but you're not my type sweetheart.

rocketassist
09-25-2007, 02:45 PM
The Sun is the worst lie teller in the country, wouldn't believe a word of it.

Still they got Lee to do their dirty work anyway.

Not dissing or suspecting Nole here but losing to Troicki in Umag is a bit dodgy, he should not lose more than five games against him.

bjurra
09-25-2007, 02:54 PM
The Sun is the worst lie teller in the country, wouldn't believe a word of it.

Still they got Lee to do their dirty work anyway.

Not dissing or suspecting Nole here but losing to Troicki in Umag is a bit dodgy, he should not lose more than five games against him.

Well it's pretty safe to say that he didnt feel like winning against his good friend Troicki in a MM tournament the week before a Masters Series on hc. However, Nole deserves some credit for not telling the Russian mob about his intentions.

ReturnWinner
09-25-2007, 02:55 PM
no suprise for this as the world is full of corruption

Action Jackson
09-25-2007, 06:13 PM
no suprise for this as the world is full of corruption

Too true.

MrExcel
09-25-2007, 07:31 PM
http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12110_2754437,00.html

*M*
09-25-2007, 08:03 PM
http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12110_2754437,00.html
I had no idea Novak was a starlet. Someone must have been real convinced by his Maria Sharapova impression. :p

dylan24
09-25-2007, 08:18 PM
atp needs to do something about all this sooner than later.
their donkey investigation will take 10 years.
by that time donkey will be retired

Stensland
09-25-2007, 08:41 PM
Well, Serbia did not have the convenience of getting support from former Nazi allies (masters?). As a German, I would expect you to know just how much diplomatic and political support Croatia got from Germany, Austria, and the Vatican. At any rate, even before that Croatia, having been in the Austro-Hungarian empire for a thousand years, was more economically developed than Serbia, which had been under Ottoman rule for five centuries. And given that Western Europe decided 15 years ago to pick sides against Serbia (whatever the conflict, Serbs were always to blame), maybe Serbia can only turn to Russia/China/India, which although not necessarily the better choice economically they are at least not trying to rip off a chunk of Serbia's territory.

I don't like it when sports forums go down the path of politics, but it was the IvanLjubicic fellow who was first making snide bigoted comments against "the corrupt Serb Djokovic".

uhm...what does all that pre-ww2-stuff have to do with the current state? you know since when the austro-hungarian empire doesn't exist anymore? it's like saying "oh, remember the irish potato famine, that's why ireland didn't catch up to europe til the end of the 90s (!!)." :retard:

it took loads of natins having been able to catch up with western eurpe less than a decade to come up with infrastructure etc., so you'd think serbia would have been able to bridge that gap in like a century, right?

and surely you're right about the war stuff 15 years ago, nato etc., but so what? balkan boy simply said serbia was on its way to overtake croatia.

which it simply is not, no matter why it doesn't. period.

Stensland
09-25-2007, 08:52 PM
@ balkan boy

well, considering that serbia's growth rate is a little over croatia's (both between 6 and 7%), it'll take serbia approx. 25 years to even come close to croatia in economic terms since croatia's gdp per capita is round 15.000 $ (which is, btw, more than bulgaria or poland, something, that you claimed for serbia, which was simply wrong even if kosovo people wouldn't count since they'd only make up like 15% of the population) and serbia's is at around 7.000 $.

and i doubt that it even comes to that because croatia tends to the west whereas serbia will go down the drain concerning general living conditions when it leans to russia.

Aloimeh
09-25-2007, 09:35 PM
uhm...what does all that pre-ww2-stuff have to do with the current state? you know since when the austro-hungarian empire doesn't exist anymore? it's like saying "oh, remember the irish potato famine, that's why ireland didn't catch up to europe til the end of the 90s (!!)." :retard:

it took loads of natins having been able to catch up with western eurpe less than a decade to come up with infrastructure etc., so you'd think serbia would have been able to bridge that gap in like a century, right?

and surely you're right about the war stuff 15 years ago, nato etc., but so what? balkan boy simply said serbia was on its way to overtake croatia.

which it simply is not, no matter why it doesn't. period.

Older history can have long-lasting economic impacts. Don't pretend that it doesn't. Ireland was one of the poorest countries to join the EU, no doubt in part due to the Potato famine. If you knew anything about the history of Yugoslavia, you would know that the wealthiest regions were in the north (Slovenia, Croatia, and northern Serbia) and the poorest were in the south (Bosnia, Montenegro (although somewhat offset by Adriatic coast tourism), Macedonia, and southern Serbia (especially Kosovo)). This reflects the Ottoman-Austro-Hungarian demarcation pretty well. It was further reinforced by the Yugoslav Communist authorities (I won't go into this, but suffice it to say that Slovenia was given manufacturing/industry and factories with which they processed grossly underpriced raw materials from Serbia and Macedonia and then they resold these 2nd grade products back to the rest of Yugoslavia, since they couldn't sell that kind of junk in Western Europe.

What I'm getting at is that Serbia and Croatia did not start off from the same footing in 1918, nor in 1945, nor in 1991. Ottoman vs. Austro-Hungarian occupation, different historical experiences in WWI and WWII, and the economic mismanagement by the Communists may have contributed to that. I am not arguing that Croatia is currently in a better position than Serbia (it is, without a doubt), just saying that it's not as if Serbia's economic woes vis-a-vis Croatia are entirely of it's own doing, as you seem to imply by their "choosing" of Russia over the EU. I would choose Russia too if the EU were hellbent on amputating my territory in exchange for membership.

Farenhajt
09-25-2007, 09:36 PM
Rrrainer, do take Croatian DEBTS into account, and they are HUGE (and that's "huge" as in HUMONGOUS - you can find relevant information easily). Putting up appearances costs money, you know. And of course, those debts consist to a GREAT amount of German money, so I kinda understand you give preference to your country's debtor (perhaps even your pet project?). Next, it's all but natural to dislike anyone's close relationships with Russia, whose ass you people got to kiss in order to get your gas supply - no one likes his owner, right?

(On the other hand, German companies really sucked trying to get in Serbia, if I'm not mistaken. Another reason to put Serbia down, of course - you get but peanuts from us.)

Aloimeh
09-25-2007, 09:52 PM
Rrrainer, do take Croatian DEBTS into account, and they are HUGE (and that's "huge" as in HUMONGOUS - you can find relevant information easily). Putting up appearances costs money, you know. And of course, those debts consist to a GREAT amount of German money, so I kinda understand you give preference to your country's debtor (perhaps even your pet project?). Next, it's all but natural to dislike anyone's close relationships with Russia, whose ass you people got to kiss in order to get your gas supply - no one likes his owner, right?

(On the other hand, German companies really sucked trying to get in Serbia, if I'm not mistaken. Another reason to put Serbia down, of course - you get but peanuts from us.)

I really don't understand the point of this line of argument. Croatia is definitely standing better both economically and politically in Europe than is Serbia. And this will remain so for many years in the future. Croatia is essentially an ethnically homogeneous state (at least since 1995), with no restive minority, with a beautiful coastline and plenty of international tourism, and a more developed economy since 1918 (Austria-Hungary), since 1945 (WWII was less harsh in the Croatian Nazi allied state than in German occupied Serbia), and since 1991 (largely a consequence of the previous state of affairs and Communist mismanagement). Serbia, in contrast, has two major ethnic minority problems (Albanians in Kosovo and Muslims in Raska), and these two groups constitute ~20% of the population. Kosovo is a political nightmare and economically in the crapper, with Albanians running the drug and weapons trade and prostitution rings. Furthermore, southern Serbia outside of Kosovo is grossly undeveloped - many roads are not paved or are covered with ancient Turkish cobblestone. The Communists did not invest at all in Serbia, but rather exploited it. Furthermore, central Serbia is largely agrarian and what little industry there was was demolished with NATO bombs (Zastava, for example). The only two regions that can compete well with Croatia economically are the Belgrade area and Vojvodina. Vojvodina is an ethnic melting pot that could erupt into flames if the West stokes the Hungarians and Croats and Slovaks to start making problems. Much of this infrastructure was destroyed in 1999 as well (all Novi Sad bridges and the oil refinerees of Pannonia). And Serbia will never enjoy the tourism that Croatia enjoys: the quaint Central European towns of Vojvodina and the ancient Serb churches (many of them in dangerous Kosovo) just cannot compete with the beaches and stunning Italian towns of Dalmatia for tourism dollars.

I still don't get why this thread came up: oh yes, a Bosnian Muslim started making anti-Serb putdowns about "corrupt Serb Djokovic." So why are we still talking about the Croatian and Serbian economies?

BalkanBoy
09-25-2007, 10:01 PM
@ balkan boy

well, considering that serbia's growth rate is a little over croatia's (both between 6 and 7%), it'll take serbia approx. 25 years to even come close to croatia in economic terms since croatia's gdp per capita is round 15.000 $ (which is, btw, more than bulgaria or poland, something, that you claimed for serbia, which was simply wrong even if kosovo people wouldn't count since they'd only make up like 15% of the population) and serbia's is at around 7.000 $.

and i doubt that it even comes to that because croatia tends to the west whereas serbia will go down the drain concerning general living conditions when it leans to russia.

Jesus Christ, are you Croat from origin? Economics sees no borders. Serbia is playing neutral role in economy and in politics. The fact is the West betrayed Serbia it's why today it tends more to Russia because they re supporting it to save it's territory (Kosovo).
About the betrayal see this http://www.greece.org/themis/action_press/serbia.htm

and the biggest rescue mission in World War 2 happened in Yougoslavia where Serb guerila (Chetniks) risked their lives to save 500 American pilots from Germans and Croatian's Nazis (Ustache)
Plus on that, Croatia never apologised for these crimes against Serbs in WW2 which amounted close to 2 millions victims. In fact, Croatia still keeps denying it or keeping the numbers way lower. That's why Serbia has no choice but to lean where there is still justice. Proof here: http://www.sailorstotheend.com/500.html

In WW1 and WW2 Serbs were always with the West but they got betrayed and I'm sure truth will emerge soon. Do you understand now why Serbia tends to go more East even if it tries hard to stay neutral but ilegal acts from west(America especially) don't stop coming like this : http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/us-europe-will-recognise-kosovo/2007/09/25/1190486312020.html

And sorry again to dissapoint you but Serbia is doing great now even in a difficult political position and I'm happy for Croatia doing good since I'm half Croat too.

BalkanBoy
09-25-2007, 10:22 PM
I really don't understand the point of this line of argument. Croatia is definitely standing better both economically and politically in Europe than is Serbia. And this will remain so for many years in the future. Croatia is essentially an ethnically homogeneous state (at least since 1995), with no restive minority, with a beautiful coastline and plenty of international tourism, and a more developed economy since 1918 (Austria-Hungary), since 1945 (WWII was less harsh in the Croatian Nazi allied state than in German occupied Serbia), and since 1991 (largely a consequence of the previous state of affairs and Communist mismanagement). Serbia, in contrast, has two major ethnic minority problems (Albanians in Kosovo and Muslims in Raska), and these two groups constitute ~20% of the population. Kosovo is a political nightmare and economically in the crapper, with Albanians running the drug and weapons trade and prostitution rings. Furthermore, southern Serbia outside of Kosovo is grossly undeveloped - many roads are not paved or are covered with ancient Turkish cobblestone. The Communists did not invest at all in Serbia, but rather exploited it. Furthermore, central Serbia is largely agrarian and what little industry there was was demolished with NATO bombs (Zastava, for example). The only two regions that can compete well with Croatia economically are the Belgrade area and Vojvodina. Vojvodina is an ethnic melting pot that could erupt into flames if the West stokes the Hungarians and Croats and Slovaks to start making problems. Much of this infrastructure was destroyed in 1999 as well (all Novi Sad bridges and the oil refinerees of Pannonia). And Serbia will never enjoy the tourism that Croatia enjoys: the quaint Central European towns of Vojvodina and the ancient Serb churches (many of them in dangerous Kosovo) just cannot compete with the beaches and stunning Italian towns of Dalmatia for tourism dollars.

I still don't get why this thread came up: oh yes, a Bosnian Muslim started making anti-Serb putdowns about "corrupt Serb Djokovic." So why are we still talking about the Croatian and Serbian economies?

I agree with alot of what you said Serbia but are you seeing the Paradox here? Serbia was considered like a Evil State but has the most ethnic groups from all the countries in Ex-Yougoslavia while Croatia ethnically cleansed 250 000 Serbs in 1995 to make the country the purest in Europe and is considered friendly???. That's why it's a homogenous state like you said oh and becuase they also killed 2 millions more Serbs in WW2.

I agree also that Serbia can't compete with Croatia's tourism. The coastline is simply amazing but that's also only one segment of the economy. I was reading today and an Indian firm plans to open an IT park in Serbia worth 600 millions USD which will employ 25 000 people.
See here: http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5i-uy01R25tjkLXzh_gMQf0h2-Uqg

That's Serbia's economic advantage: highly skilled but cheap labour and with time, it will equal Croatia in capita and I'm happy that both countries are doing great because I love people from there.

BalkanBoy
09-25-2007, 10:30 PM
Older history can have long-lasting economic impacts. Don't pretend that it doesn't. Ireland was one of the poorest countries to join the EU, no doubt in part due to the Potato famine. If you knew anything about the history of Yugoslavia, you would know that the wealthiest regions were in the north (Slovenia, Croatia, and northern Serbia) and the poorest were in the south (Bosnia, Montenegro (although somewhat offset by Adriatic coast tourism), Macedonia, and southern Serbia (especially Kosovo)). This reflects the Ottoman-Austro-Hungarian demarcation pretty well. It was further reinforced by the Yugoslav Communist authorities (I won't go into this, but suffice it to say that Slovenia was given manufacturing/industry and factories with which they processed grossly underpriced raw materials from Serbia and Macedonia and then they resold these 2nd grade products back to the rest of Yugoslavia, since they couldn't sell that kind of junk in Western Europe.

What I'm getting at is that Serbia and Croatia did not start off from the same footing in 1918, nor in 1945, nor in 1991. Ottoman vs. Austro-Hungarian occupation, different historical experiences in WWI and WWII, and the economic mismanagement by the Communists may have contributed to that. I am not arguing that Croatia is currently in a better position than Serbia (it is, without a doubt), just saying that it's not as if Serbia's economic woes vis-a-vis Croatia are entirely of it's own doing, as you seem to imply by their "choosing" of Russia over the EU. I would choose Russia too if the EU were hellbent on amputating my territory in exchange for membership.

I'm amazed how well you know the situation from someone not from the region. The postitive thing is that things are going for the better there and the true potential of Serbia will be revealed after the Kosovo status settlement. Which could lead the country down or up very fast. Depedently of the decisions that are made from both sides, a comprimise between Serbs and Albanians would be the best solution but America doesn't want it and they want Albanians to declare Independance Unilateraly. They really have to change their policy because they are losing friends everywhere in the world.

Farenhajt
09-25-2007, 11:13 PM
So, coastline and roads is all that matters? How about food production, steel, etc.?

As for Kosovo, your country and your beloved allies Americans COULD do some cop duty (which IS under UNMIK jurisdiction) and clean the situation. But... in the next life, possibly.

And of course, the moment you run out of arguments, you "get tired of a discussion". (Pattern there, huh?)

To conclude: Croatia is just PAID by Western countries to APPEAR more developed. In the heart of the matter, the difference between Cro and Srb is not at all big.

Stensland
09-25-2007, 11:33 PM
Rrrainer, do take Croatian DEBTS into account, and they are HUGE (and that's "huge" as in HUMONGOUS - you can find relevant information easily). Putting up appearances costs money, you know. And of course, those debts consist to a GREAT amount of German money, so I kinda understand you give preference to your country's debtor (perhaps even your pet project?). Next, it's all but natural to dislike anyone's close relationships with Russia, whose ass you people got to kiss in order to get your gas supply - no one likes his owner, right?

(On the other hand, German companies really sucked trying to get in Serbia, if I'm not mistaken. Another reason to put Serbia down, of course - you get but peanuts from us.)

can you, for one time, leave out anti-german sentiment? i'm not a croat nor am i a serb and why would i be speaking for the german nation as a whole? i don't defend my countries actions, our companies' politics or stuff like that. you really think i prefer croatia as a country because of debt or something?

i'm really wondering what kinda world you live in. feel free to check my posts in other threads, i'm not the type of guy you apparently think i am.

Stensland
09-25-2007, 11:35 PM
@ aloimeh.

great stuff, i didn't know a lot of what you just posted. i might have to goodrep you. :)

Stensland
09-25-2007, 11:38 PM
Jesus Christ, are you Croat from origin? Economics sees no borders. Serbia is playing neutral role in economy and in politics. The fact is the West betrayed Serbia it's why today it tends more to Russia because they re supporting it to save it's territory (Kosovo).
About the betrayal see this http://www.greece.org/themis/action_press/serbia.htm

and the biggest rescue mission in World War 2 happened in Yougoslavia where Serb guerila (Chetniks) risked their lives to save 500 American pilots from Germans and Croatian's Nazis (Ustache)
Plus on that, Croatia never apologised for these crimes against Serbs in WW2 which amounted close to 2 millions victims. In fact, Croatia still keeps denying it or keeping the numbers way lower. That's why Serbia has no choice but to lean where there is still justice. Proof here: http://www.sailorstotheend.com/500.html

In WW1 and WW2 Serbs were always with the West but they got betrayed and I'm sure truth will emerge soon. Do you understand now why Serbia tends to go more East even if it tries hard to stay neutral but ilegal acts from west(America especially) don't stop coming like this : http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/us-europe-will-recognise-kosovo/2007/09/25/1190486312020.html

And sorry again to dissapoint you but Serbia is doing great now even in a difficult political position and I'm happy for Croatia doing good since I'm half Croat too.

why'd you quote me for that posting of yours? you ain't even touching any points i mentioned, you just repeat what you've said before. all we (you and me, that is) were talking about was that serbia is catching up and will one day overtake croatia.

well, i'm not sure if i'm gonna live that long, if it even happens. and that's a big if. that's what it came down to.

Bascule
09-25-2007, 11:58 PM
why'd you quote me for that posting of yours? you ain't even touching any points i mentioned, you just repeat what you've said before. all we (you and me, that is) were talking about was that serbia is catching up and will one day overtake croatia.

well, i'm not sure if i'm gonna live that long, if it even happens. and that's a big if. that's what it came down to.

Oh, yes, I'm sure I will not live that long, after we all heard 2 sweet words and melody "Danke, Deutchland", our destiny was sealed.

Stensland
09-26-2007, 12:05 AM
Oh, yes, I'm sure I will not live that long, after we all heard 2 sweet words and melody "Danke, Deutchland", our destiny was sealed.

sorry, i don't get it. can you elaborate on that posting a little? does that mean something or do you just follow in fahrenhajt's footsteps cause it's nice and easy?

BalkanBoy
09-26-2007, 12:23 AM
why'd you quote me for that posting of yours? you ain't even touching any points i mentioned, you just repeat what you've said before. all we (you and me, that is) were talking about was that serbia is catching up and will one day overtake croatia.

well, i'm not sure if i'm gonna live that long, if it even happens. and that's a big if. that's what it came down to.

Well you also said Serbia was going down because it leans to Russia instead of West like Croatia and I tried to explain you why is that and that Buisness has no borders Russia, America same thing money is money. US companies are welcome as are Russia's. So explain me why Serbia is going down because it's doing buisness with Russia also?

Stensland
09-26-2007, 12:30 AM
Well you also said Serbia was going down because it leans to Russia instead of West like Croatia and I tried to explain you why is that and that Buisness has no borders Russia, America same thing money is money. US companies are welcome as are Russia's. So explain me why Serbia is going down because it's doing buisness with Russia also?

i didn't even mention america, i was referring to the big money the european union is gonna pump into croatia, just like they did with spain, ireland and the likes (and just take a look at where they are at the moment). serbia stated very clearly that its future won't be in the european union; that rules out a rapid economic rise. or do you wanna tell me the former soviet states are coming up strong?

business has no borders, sure, but the eu is paying for its companies to create a market; russia isn't.

Merton
09-26-2007, 12:56 AM
The Sun is the worst lie teller in the country, wouldn't believe a word of it.

Still they got Lee to do their dirty work anyway.

Not dissing or suspecting Nole here but losing to Troicki in Umag is a bit dodgy, he should not lose more than five games against him.

Tanking is different than fixing, the loss against Troicki could be a tank (Nole cared about the parties and the beaches in Umag), a semi-tank (Nole didn't care enough about the tournament so he didn't try his best facing an opponent playing well) or just an Upset.

Fixing is related to actually making profits through the pre-meditaded decision to throw the match away. There is no case for fixing in the Umag case.

Bascule
09-26-2007, 01:01 AM
Well, Croatia, Spain, Ireland - catolic counties, first of all.
And for Danke, D, it was croat song on Evrovision (it was disgusting) 15 years ago, when Germany was the first country which accepted croat secession (after that fightings were even worse).

Stensland
09-26-2007, 01:09 AM
Well, Croatia, Spain, Ireland - catolic counties, first at all.
And for Danke, D, it was croat song on Evrovision (it was disgusting) 15 years ago, when Germany was the first country which accepted croat secession (after that fightings were even worse).

hm...ok, alright. but what was that post of yours supposed to tell me then? that croats can't sing? that we're (the germans) the ones to blame for the balkan war?

and what do you wanna say with the religion-statement, that the eu favors catholic countries? well, what about sweden? romania? the uk? bulgaria? finland?

Bascule
09-26-2007, 01:26 AM
Not to blame exactily, but Germany did add an oil on fire, you know. But there's nothing white and black on this world (everthing's most grey), so we serbs can't be so bad as it has been told many times in your media. My brother lives in Berlin, he was attacked few times for beeing serb, my friend in Paris told me she was suprised how people don't know much but hate serbs so much because of media propagande, and my friend in Madrid told me few weeks ago she still has the same problem with spaniard, and they're not even informed as well. I lost a lot in Croatia for just beeing a serb. They took our flats, my grandma's still waiting there (she's invalid has no leg) to get back her flat (she pays a room there for 8 years), but croats want to make sure that serbs won't come back. Nato helped croats to attack serbs and clean country from serbs, and, noone bombed croats for that or helped serbs get back on their countries. My family lived there over 5 centuries. And lot of them were killed by croat and german nazzi....And that's all politics, who knows what lies beneath.

Aloimeh
09-26-2007, 01:34 AM
Danke Deutschland is a song authorized by the Croatian state:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koi_HJrZWPw

Danke Deutschland, meine Seele brennt!
Danke Deutschland, für das liebe Geschenk.
Danke Deutschland, vielen Dank,
wir sind jetzt nicht allein,
und die Hoffnung kommt in das zerstörte Heim.

Translation:

Thank you Germany, my soul is burning!
Thank you Germany, for the lovely gift.
Thank you Germany, many many thanks,
now we are no more alone,
and hope comes into our destroyed homeland.

Here's a short clip of it. It's pretty pathetic, and widely ridiculed by ex-Yugoslavs (some Croats among them).

Stensland
09-26-2007, 01:35 AM
yeah i don't get that song at all. is it supposed to thank germany for taking sides during the conflict?

Aloimeh
09-26-2007, 01:37 AM
Jesus Christ, are you Croat from origin? Economics sees no borders. Serbia is playing neutral role in economy and in politics. The fact is the West betrayed Serbia it's why today it tends more to Russia because they re supporting it to save it's territory (Kosovo).
About the betrayal see this http://www.greece.org/themis/action_press/serbia.htm

and the biggest rescue mission in World War 2 happened in Yougoslavia where Serb guerila (Chetniks) risked their lives to save 500 American pilots from Germans and Croatian's Nazis (Ustache)
Plus on that, Croatia never apologised for these crimes against Serbs in WW2 which amounted close to 2 millions victims. In fact, Croatia still keeps denying it or keeping the numbers way lower. That's why Serbia has no choice but to lean where there is still justice. Proof here: http://www.sailorstotheend.com/500.html

In WW1 and WW2 Serbs were always with the West but they got betrayed and I'm sure truth will emerge soon. Do you understand now why Serbia tends to go more East even if it tries hard to stay neutral but ilegal acts from west(America especially) don't stop coming like this : http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/us-europe-will-recognise-kosovo/2007/09/25/1190486312020.html

And sorry again to dissapoint you but Serbia is doing great now even in a difficult political position and I'm happy for Croatia doing good since I'm half Croat too.

I think you are being overly harsh on Rrainer. He may not understand the region and history too well, and I think it's reasonable that he notes the economic differences between Serbia and Croatia and where they're going. What he failed to mention was the historic circumstances (both very recent and quite ancient) that might lead to such discrepancies. Give him a break.

Aloimeh
09-26-2007, 01:40 AM
yeah i don't get that song at all. is it supposed to blame germany for taking sides during the conflict?

Not at all! It's basically an arse-kissing song aired on Croatian national TV, and it thanks Germany for "saving" Croatia. Personally, I don't understand what the purpose was, since it's unlikely that any Germans saw the song and those that did probably wanted to vomit from the poor musical taste and low artistic quality. Really, it could only end up being an embarrassment to Croatia, but the clowns that were then in power didn't get that.

Stensland
09-26-2007, 01:41 AM
I think you are being overly harsh on Rrainer. He may not understand the region and history too well, and I think it's reasonable that he notes the economic differences between Serbia and Croatia and where they're going. What he failed to mention was the historic circumstances (both very recent and quite ancient) that might lead to such discrepancies. Give him a break.

thank you!

and i didn't even expect this kind of history lesson (pretty biased though), all i wanted to point out was the fact that balkan boy appears to be overly optimistic when it comes to serbia's future.

Stensland
09-26-2007, 01:42 AM
Not at all! It's basically an arse-kissing song aired on Croatian national TV, and it thanks Germany for "saving" Croatia. Personally, I don't understand what the purpose was, since it's unlikely that any Germans saw the song and those that did probably wanted to vomit from the poor musical taste and low artistic quality. Really, it could only end up being an embarrassment to Croatia, but the clowns that were then in power didn't get that.

i edited that posting (from "blame" to "thank") as that's what i initially meant. so it all adds up to make sense, i guess. :)

Aloimeh
09-26-2007, 01:45 AM
I agree with alot of what you said Serbia but are you seeing the Paradox here? Serbia was considered like a Evil State but has the most ethnic groups from all the countries in Ex-Yougoslavia while Croatia ethnically cleansed 250 000 Serbs in 1995 to make the country the purest in Europe and is considered friendly???. That's why it's a homogenous state like you said oh and becuase they also killed 2 millions more Serbs in WW2.

I agree also that Serbia can't compete with Croatia's tourism. The coastline is simply amazing but that's also only one segment of the economy. I was reading today and an Indian firm plans to open an IT park in Serbia worth 600 millions USD which will employ 25 000 people.
See here: http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5i-uy01R25tjkLXzh_gMQf0h2-Uqg

That's Serbia's economic advantage: highly skilled but cheap labour and with time, it will equal Croatia in capita and I'm happy that both countries are doing great because I love people from there.

I note the senseless nature of reporting on Serbia. The country is only 65% ethnically Serb and is being decried as some fascist monstrosity, and there are MANY different ethnic and religious groups: Croats, Muslims, Albanians, Hungarians, Slovaks, Czechs, Rusyns, Ukrainians, Romanians, Vlachs, Turks, Gypsies, Gorani, Armenians, Bulgarians, Tsintars, and even a large Chinese population.

The 2 million figure you cite is exaggerated. The real number is between 750,000 and 1 million, which is still a lot and it definitely was a genocide. Too bad it has been so systematically hushed up, but I think the Holy See had something to do with it. And then John Paul II beatified the cardinal who oversaw the genocide and engineered the forced conversions to Catholicism, Alojzije Stepinac. Which just shows that that particular religious entity has not broken away from a bitter and annihilationist tendency towards Orthodox Christians (and Protestant Christians and Jews, btw).

Aloimeh
09-26-2007, 01:53 AM
I'm amazed how well you know the situation from someone not from the region. The postitive thing is that things are going for the better there and the true potential of Serbia will be revealed after the Kosovo status settlement. Which could lead the country down or up very fast. Depedently of the decisions that are made from both sides, a comprimise between Serbs and Albanians would be the best solution but America doesn't want it and they want Albanians to declare Independance Unilateraly. They really have to change their policy because they are losing friends everywhere in the world.

Actually, ethnically I am part Serb, part Slovene, and tiny bits French, Montenegrin and Tsintsar/Greek (not sure which one of the last). So this explains my interest in the region and its history. But I consider myself American.

Bascule
09-26-2007, 02:00 AM
Very nice, Aloimeh. Good posts. Were you born in USA or in ex-Yu?
You speak serbian, as well?

Aloimeh
09-26-2007, 02:03 AM
Very nice, Aloimeh. Good posts. Were you born in USA or in ex-Yu?
You speak serbian, as well?

Born and lived all my life in the USA. I do speak Serbian fluently (but still make a lot of accent and case (padez) errors). I don't know any Slovenian since my parents felt that learning two very closely related languages would lead to confusion.

Bascule
09-26-2007, 02:08 AM
It's amasing how good you've been informed, much better than some people who live here. Respect!

Aloimeh
09-26-2007, 02:25 AM
It's amasing how good you've been informed, much better than some people who live here. Respect!

I would probably be ignorant of these things if it weren't for those damned wars. The atmosphere in the US was very difficult those years. Everyone wanted to know the national origin of my name, and those who were "better informed" wanted to know what specific region my parents came from. When they heard Serbia, you could see a shadow cross their faces. Sitting in the middle school library, my classmates (same grade but different classroom) came in one day and shouted "Kill the Serbs." I kid you not! And these kids have nothing to do with the region (Irish, Italian, Anglo, etc. American) I was shocked that such hateful dehumanizing "education" was being given to 7th graders that would make them say something like that. So I wanted to find out the truth for myself.

In all honesty, it was difficult to accept that some (but by no means all or even most) of the things reported by the media about "Serbs" was indeed true, that members of my ethnic group had done some very cruel and wicked things in Croatia, Kosovo, and especially Bosnia. But what I further found out was that these were not one sided events, that terrible things were done by all sides, that Serbs too had suffered terribly and that nobody cared. In some ways that is harder to swallow than a black and white picture (regardless of who is "black" and who is "white") because it is so demeaning of all humanity - it just shows that all of us are capable of evil, regardless of our background.

When I researched the deeper history of the region, I came to understand the causes of those conflicts and of the recent 1990s wars. I came to realize that the atrocity stories were a ruse, a distraction that leads us away from looking at instigations of war and broader historical trends and processes, and that to be duped into focusing only on a massacre here and there (as Human Rights Watch does, but in a VERY biased and politicized way) and not see the broader political process and agendas, is blind. Therefore, I am very much aware of the Vatican factor, the Muslim fundamentalist factor, the American/NATO factor, and the German-centric EU factor (look into the Maastricht treaty and Genscher/Kohl/Alois Mock for this) in instigating and perpetuating all of these conflicts and indeed in taking part in the wars and the crimes committed therein.

Bascule
09-26-2007, 02:47 AM
Yes, that was my point, I felt ugly beeing a serb even in Serbia, but anybody who went abroad during those wars into "Nato" countries had very bad experience. We're frustrated as well. We all know the facts in this war, we were not all blind, especially young and educated people here, but we couldn't do anything more then making protests (I've lost a good part of my life on this) and trying to get Sloba down. But it wasn't easy at all. I can't tell on english exactily what I'm thinking on serbian, cause my english is not good enough, and that makes me feel very tired. Anyway, hope you'll come soon. Lately, lot of young europeans came here (for ex.) on Exit, and they spent some good time here. That's great.

Stensland
09-26-2007, 02:57 AM
may i ask how old you two guys are? i'm 25 and i'm pretty stunned that you had to cope with insults in "nato countries". i didn't even know a lot about that whole war til i was like 20 or something, our schools didn't teach that and apart from the broad fact that there was quite a mess down in the balkans nothing really touched our lives about that given that we were in our teens.

and you really had a hard time in the states?! that confuses me a bit since i usually believed people over there didn't even know there was some war going on in southeastern europe. and the fact that you, aloimeh, even got harassed by kids really stuns me. i'm pretty sure about 90% of kids that went to my school in germany didn't know who was the villain or victim down there. i bet most didn't even know what all that balkan fighting was about, to be honest.

to me (and i'm not biased AT ALL, trust me, i have far too little knowledge to be biased in any way) it also was basically a mess where everyone would just hate everyone. i didn't know serbs were pretty much "frowned upon" in the rest of the world, for example germany. and i'm pretty sure over here, people don't think serbs are inferior to croats, bosniaks inferior to montenegrins etc.
people don't differ between those groups over here, they're simply referred to as the "balkans" in order to save some time.

BalkanBoy
09-26-2007, 03:05 AM
i didn't even mention america, i was referring to the big money the european union is gonna pump into croatia, just like they did with spain, ireland and the likes (and just take a look at where they are at the moment). serbia stated very clearly that its future won't be in the european union; that rules out a rapid economic rise. or do you wanna tell me the former soviet states are coming up strong?

business has no borders, sure, but the eu is paying for its companies to create a market; russia isn't.

You re confonding things here or you re truly misinformed. Serbia never said it won't join EU instead, one party made clear they doesn't see Serbia in NATO which is totaly different. Second Russia is becoming a strong country again, where were you these last 7 years? Under a rock? Thirdly, there is alot of EU companies in Serbia and the biggest is Telenor who just bought State owned Mobtel for 1,5 billion Euros. So you're saying that for Serbia to join EU it has to give all it's ressources to big EU companies??? Are you dreaming? The best fr a country is to accept deals that will develop it best no matter it's Russian, Chinese or German. By the way Germany is dependent on Russia with Gas and Oil as the whole EU is so please get informed first.

Burrow
09-26-2007, 03:20 AM
Well, you can see, Burrow, he's 84, he's senile.

:yeah:

Stensland
09-26-2007, 03:21 AM
You re confonding things here or you re truly misinformed. Serbia never said it won't join EU instead, one party made clear they doesn't see Serbia in NATO which is totaly different. Second Russia is becoming a strong country again, where were you these last 7 years? Under a rock? Thirdly, there is alot of EU companies in Serbia and the biggest is Telenor who just bought State owned Mobtel for 1,5 billion Euros. So you're saying that for Serbia to join EU it has to give all it's ressources to big EU companies??? Are you dreaming? The best fr a country is to accept deals that will develop it best no matter it's Russian, Chinese or German. By the way Germany is dependent on Russia with Gas and Oil as the whole EU is so please get informed first.

1. you're totally right about the first part, i actually confused things there, i'm sorry. they really said it regarding the nato, not the eu, true.

2. russia is becoming a strong country again? come on, they're strong because of resources, that's all, and you know that. they're weak in almost every field (and getting weaker every single day), like human rights, income equality, social welfare etc.
is this really the path you wanna go? you wanna lean towards the east when there's a bright chance in the west?

and trust me, i hate our dependence on russian oil. once again: why would you think i'm backing up all of our policies? i'm just citizen, not our chancellor or anyone representing our government.

3. what are you talking about? you think european companies swoop in, buy the companies and steal serbia's oil? firstly, the billions of euros go to serbia. secondly, the country gets western european knowledge, something that it utterly needs. and thirdly, monopolies disappear, there's competition -> serbs won't have to pay as much for gas and stuff as they do today. state-run companies do have bad effects on consumers everywhere, just check out our big state-backed companies sucking the blood out of the consumers.

and one more thing, 4.: i hate your tone. it's disgusting, rude and way over the top. seems like you pretty much have the inferiority complex you initially associated with the croats.

Bascule
09-26-2007, 03:22 AM
In 1990, I travelled in several countries (that was last time I used english actually), and since that year, I went nowhere! I didn't have money anymore, we lived with 20 DM for one month only, it was really hard. "I had a dream, Joe", as somebody said. I almost don't have friends here anymore. Anybody who could make it for plane card went away. And you were just kid in 90's, so you couldn't know. There was ugly media propaganda against serbs, especially during the bombs, because we were in war, so you have to hate your enemy, I supose. There are still big ruins in center of the city and we are looking at them every f...... day, I'm tired of that. And last year coming back from Montenegro, I was shaking when had to get into the plane. Imagine bombs on Berlin (in this moment, I still ask my self was it just a bad dream). Of course things getting better, but there's still problem with Kosovo. The same countries that bombed us want Kosovo to be taken from Serbia, and I just can't understand that.

Bascule
09-26-2007, 03:23 AM
Thanks, Burrow, you're my friend now.

BalkanBoy
09-26-2007, 03:29 AM
Not at all! It's basically an arse-kissing song aired on Croatian national TV, and it thanks Germany for "saving" Croatia. Personally, I don't understand what the purpose was, since it's unlikely that any Germans saw the song and those that did probably wanted to vomit from the poor musical taste and low artistic quality. Really, it could only end up being an embarrassment to Croatia, but the clowns that were then in power didn't get that.

Hah I just saw that song and I didn't know for it because I was too young at that time but I can clearly see what the purpose of this song is. It's a "thanks germany" starting from WW2 to 1991.

If you want to get a better understanding check this movie : http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=5860186121153047571&q=avoidable+war&total=45&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1
It's free and explains very well what happened and how Germny got involved in the first stage of the conflict in 1991. Also there's alot more. It's made by english journalists who experienced conflicts in Ex-Yougoslavia.

Aloimeh
09-26-2007, 03:37 AM
may i ask how old you two guys are? i'm 25 and i'm pretty stunned that you had to cope with insults in "nato countries". i didn't even know a lot about that whole war til i was like 20 or something, our schools didn't teach that and apart from the broad fact that there was quite a mess down in the balkans nothing really touched our lives about that given that we were in our teens.

I'm 22. It was in 7th grade. I remember I was sitting in a chair in the library during lunch break reading The Arabian Nights (this was something I liked to do during lunch break). These kids in the next door class (the teacher was called Mr. Coons) came in and were talking and laughing. Then I saw their fists shoot in the air and they said/almost shouted "kill the Serbs." I have no doubt that Coons was the one infecting them with the hatred. He won I believe a lotto jackpot (so the rumors said) the next year and retired from teaching :) So it wasn't directed at me personally - I just happened to be there at the time.

I've had other experiences similar to that. In 1st grade one kid, after asking me my name, told me "I hate you."

In freshman year of college, during the summer, I worked in a basic biology lab where they did structural studies on earthworm hemoglobin. One day it was our job to "bleed" the worms, which consists of taking a large worm and jabbing a syring into its hearts and sucking the blood out. The worms survived and we released them into the wild (they recover just fine). I was able to do the bleeding better than some of the other students. When one of them said I did it well, the "boss" woman said "it figures." I always wondered what she meant by "it figures" that I would bleed earthworms well (I'm really a gentle person otherwise), but I suspect it has something to do with ethnic prejudice. She's from the UK and I suspect was poisoned with some of the hate propaganda.

and you really had a hard time in the states?! that confuses me a bit since i usually believed people over there didn't even know there was some war going on in southeastern europe. and the fact that you, aloimeh, even got harassed by kids really stuns me. i'm pretty sure about 90% of kids that went to my school in germany didn't know who was the villain or victim down there. i bet most didn't even know what all that balkan fighting was about, to be honest.

Most people in the US have no idea and don't care. Balkans = Baltics, Slovenia = Slovakia, and Yugoslavia = Czechoslovakia. They know nothing about history or politics of the area and don't really care. The problem is the "educated" BBC/Guardian reading/PBS watching types (but the CNN/CBS types work too) who think that because they've seen Christiane Amanpour give her tearjerker propaganda speech, they know what the Balkans, Serbs, and everything to do with the place are all about. These people make inferences and sloppy conclusions based on limited information and were generally the most hostile to Serbs.

to me (and i'm not biased AT ALL, trust me, i have far too little knowledge to be biased in any way) it also was basically a mess where everyone would just hate everyone. i didn't know serbs were pretty much "frowned upon" in the rest of the world, for example germany. and i'm pretty sure over here, people don't think serbs are inferior to croats, bosniaks inferior to montenegrins etc.
people don't differ between those groups over here, they're simply referred to as the "balkans" in order to save some time.

I understand the sentiment and while it is mildly annoying because people have died over the differences between these groups, it is not incorrect to say that there are a great many similarities. I am rather surprised that you didn't get a sense of the Western Serbophobia. Recently, in 2006 for example, one of the most important German language authors of our time, Peter Handke, was denied the Heinrich Heine prize by the city council of Dusseldorf because he allegedely supports Serbia and Milosevic.

Stensland
09-26-2007, 03:37 AM
@ balkan boy

interesting. i never experienced any "thankful" attitude towards us when talking to croats in germany. you'd think they love us but apparently in real life, on the streets and in schools etc., they don't.

but it isa new side to the whole balkan story. i'm still not sure what to make of all that (since i don't trust your judgement, sorry guys *apart from aloimeh*) but i guess i might have to do some research about our involvement.

i kinda have the feeling that it's got something to do with blaming it on the germans as going for the easiest shot (as, you know, we're used to being baaaaaad on the international stage and nobody's gonna correct anyone saying that germany's hands are onto something cruel again) but who knows, you guys might actually have a point there.

but as a avid media freak (and i read and watch all kinds of stuff, from leaft-leaning to very conservative media) i'm a little surprised that stuff like that never occured to me before; at least not that much. and trust me, germans themselves tend to be the best when it comes to german-bashing. ;)

BalkanBoy
09-26-2007, 03:38 AM
1. you're totally right about the first part, i actually confused things there, i'm sorry. they really said it regarding the nato, not the eu, true.

2. russia is becoming a strong country again? come on, they're strong because of resources, that's all, and you know that. they're weak in almost every field (and getting weaker every single day), like human rights, income equality, social welfare etc.
is this really the path you wanna go? you wanna lean towards the east when there's a bright chance in the west?

and trust me, i hate our dependence on russian oil. once again: why would you think i'm backing up all of our policies? i'm just citizen, not our chancellor or anyone representing our government.

3. what are you talking about? you think european companies swoop in, buy the companies and steal serbia's oil? firstly, the billions of euros go to serbia. secondly, the country gets western european knowledge, something that it utterly needs. and thirdly, monopolies disappear, there's competition -> serbs won't have to pay as much for gas and stuff as they do today. state-run companies do have bad effects on consumers everywhere, just check out our big state-backed companies sucking the blood out of the consumers.

and one more thing, 4.: i hate your tone. it's disgusting, rude and way over the top. seems like you pretty much have the inferiority complex you initially associated with the croats.

Well I have that tone with somebody that is not well informed and making assumtions of things he doesn't know after that he's surprised by the tone. I'm sorry to being rude at you but some of your comments were just discusting too. Especially the non-sense assumtions about Serbia going down because of Russia? cmon.

The thing I agree with you is about Russia, life there etc. But what we were talking about is money and not style of life and socity. So explain me again how Serbia can go down because Russian comapnies come and invest? They will change our mentality all of sudden? By the way EU is sucking ressources from new comers, that's a fact. Look at Slovenia, all the big companies over there are EU owned. People are iving nicely there but the big part of money is going abroad. That's the bad thing of EU but honestly it has more good than bad parts.

Bascule
09-26-2007, 03:39 AM
Hah I just saw that song and I didn't know for it because I was too young at that time but I can clearly see what the purpose of this song is. It's a "thanks germany" starting from WW2 to 1991.

If you want to get a better understanding check this movie : http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=5860186121153047571&q=avoidable+war&total=45&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1
It's free and explains very well what happened and how Germny got involved in the first stage of the conflict in 1991. Also there's alot more. It's made by english journalists who experienced conflicts in Ex-Yougoslavia.
I have to download first. It's more than one hour! What did you mean about "thanks germany" starting from 1941 to 1991?
RRainer is good fellow, be nice to him.
Pozdrav!

BalkanBoy
09-26-2007, 03:41 AM
@ balkan boy

interesting. i never experienced any "thankful" attitude towards us when talking to croats in germany. you'd think they love us but apparently in real life, on the streets and in schools etc., they don't.

but it isa new side to the whole balkan story. i'm still not sure what to make of all that (since i don't trust your judgement, sorry guys *apart from aloimeh*) but i guess i might have to do some research about our involvement.

i kinda have the feeling that it's got something to do with blaming it on the germans as going for the easiest shot (as, you know, we're used to being baaaaaad on the international stage and nobody's gonna correct anyone saying that germany's hands are onto something cruel again) but who knows, you guys might actually have a point there.

but as a avid media freak (and i read and watch all kinds of stuff, from leaft-leaning to very conservative media) i'm a little surprised that stuff like that never occured to me before; at least not that much. and trust me, germans themselves tend to be the best when it comes to german-bashing. ;)

If you don't trust me fine but watch the video, I didn't made it I garantee that :rolls: and I'm 20 btw.

Aloimeh
09-26-2007, 03:44 AM
I think you guys are being very, very hard on Rrainer, and even rude. He's been pretty open minded about things we've discussed, considering that they really don't impinge on his life personally at all, and considering that he and his compatriots have been fed an unrelenting stream of one-sided propaganda/exaggeration/fabrication for more than 15 years. There's no need to be so personally insulted about his statements; what is seen as offensive stems more from lack of knowledge than some sort of Teutonic malice.

BalkanBoy
09-26-2007, 03:44 AM
I have to download first. It's more than one hour! What did you mean about "thanks germany" starting from 1941 to 1991?
RRainer is good fellow, be nice to him.
Pozdrav!

Well from all the support they got from Nazi Germany to the support in weapons in 1991. Remeber Croatia was first independant as a puppy Nazi State thanks to Germany and then in 1991 also with lot of help from Germany and Ustache(Nazi extremist Croats) that fled there after WW2. Watch the video and it will all become more clear.

Stensland
09-26-2007, 03:45 AM
I understand the sentiment and while it is mildly annoying because people have died over the differences between these groups, it is not incorrect to say that there are a great many similarities. I am rather surprised that you didn't get a sense of the Western Serbophobia. Recently, in 2006 for example, one of the most important German language authors of our time, Peter Handke, was denied the Heinrich Heine prize by the city council of Dusseldorf because he allegedely supports Serbia and Milosevic.

good lord, you know way more about germany than i do myself (referring to handke)... :o

yeah, you're probably right about the serbophobia in elitist circles, but i was talking about the "normal" guys like myself, the ones who just read the papers trying to get the broader picture of the world.

if you ask some normal people on the streets in germany, i'd guess that about 90% say something like "hm...well, i don't know exactly, it used to be such a mess down there, don't know about whose fault it is". that would be the overwhelming majorities' opinion about it.

and, you know, this is germany, a country one hour flight away from serbia. the states are like halfway around the world, so that's why i was wondering about the serbophobia in over there since it really couldn't have bothered americans that much, let alone american kids.

Aloimeh
09-26-2007, 03:46 AM
Well from all the support they got from Nazi Germany to the support in weapons in 1991.

I believe that most of the weapons for arming Croatia came from Hungary actually. I don't know about Slovenia, but it's very likely that they got them from Austria.

Bosnian Muslims were armed by Iran, through Croatia, and with American approval, despite the arms embargo.

Bascule
09-26-2007, 03:54 AM
Oh, yes, "As das kind kind war" Handke, the great serb. I was pretty shocked then, cause he already was my fav. And mrs Alampour, I remember, we really hated her, she was awful, hahaha. I can laugh now from a distance. Rrainer, if you like good music, come in Novi Sad next july on Exit festival. Be our guest. I've never been in Berlin at my brother's house and I will someday, cause after Hummel uber Berlin (Wenders, Handke, Sam Shepard), I was really touched. I got doc "Berlin, the city of simphony" from 1936. I even went often in Gete institute in Belgrade (german culture centar here). Where do you live RRainer?

Aloimeh
09-26-2007, 03:55 AM
good lord, you know way more about germany than i do myself (referring to handke)... :o

yeah, you're probably right about the serbophobia in elitist circles, but i was talking about the "normal" guys like myself, the ones who just read the papers trying to get the broader picture of the world.

if you ask some normal people on the streets in germany, i'd guess that about 90% say something like "hm...well, i don't know exactly, it used to be such a mess down there, don't know about whose fault it is". that would be the overwhelming majorities' opinion about it.

and, you know, this is germany, a country one hour flight away from serbia. the states are like halfway around the world, so that's why i was wondering about the serbophobia in over there since it really couldn't have bothered americans that much, let alone american kids.

I believe you. That's the case in the US. By and large when people ask me about my name origin, they are content with my answer. It is the "elitist" "educated" types who are in your face and prejudiced because they think they know something when in fact they know very little. The worst thing is that these "educated" types pretend to be tolerant and "humane" yet they don't see the hypocrisy in their ethnic labeling and bigotry when they act in such a way.

Actually, I mispoke about the Heinrich Heine prize. Handke personally declined it. Details are pasted below (from wikipedia):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Heine_Prize

The jury that decided the prize consisted of 5 members of the city government, 1 representative of the state of North Rhine-Westphalia, the rector of the Heinrich Heine University, and 5 other members (critics and literary experts). [1] The 5 members from the city government have 1 vote each, the others 2 votes each.

On May 20, 2006, the jury voted 12:5 to award the prize to Peter Handke (the state representative was not present). The major congratulated Handke, and Handke accepted the award.[2] According to press reports, a majority of the city council of Düsseldorf did not want to award the prize to Handke, arguing that his (perceived) support of Slobodan Milošević's oppressive regime was in blatant conflict with the spirit of the prize. [3] According to the statutes of the Heine prize, "the city council awards the prize based on the decision of the jury". On 2 June 2006, jury members Siegrid Löffler and Jean-Pierre Lefèbvre declared to leave the jury in protest.

In a letter to Düsseldorf's Major Joachim Erwin dated 2 June 2006, Mr Handke refused the award, as he did not want himself and his work to be "exposed again and again to the scorn of party politicians". [4] In a reply of 7 June 2006, Mr Erwin expressed his solidarity with Handke.

Stensland
09-26-2007, 03:55 AM
Well I have that tone with somebody that is not well informed and making assumtions of things he doesn't know after that he's surprised by the tone. I'm sorry to being rude at you but some of your comments were just discusting too. Especially the non-sense assumtions about Serbia going down because of Russia? cmon.

The thing I agree with you is about Russia, life there etc. But what we were talking about is money and not style of life and socity. So explain me again how Serbia can go down because Russian comapnies come and invest? They will change our mentality all of sudden? By the way EU is sucking ressources from new comers, that's a fact. Look at Slovenia, all the big companies over there are EU owned. People are iving nicely there but the big part of money is going abroad. That's the bad thing of EU but honestly it has more good than bad parts.

now we're talking. :)

that "serbia's going down because of russia"-thing was pre-me-apologizing-for-confusin-nato-with-eu, so never mind. ;) serbia won't go down because of russia, sure, but still, i just don't get why people in general would tend to russia if they have the european union and america as a counterpart. i'm in no way russophob or anything like that, but having these two things to choose from...i'm sure i'd go for the western side.

russian companies can come and invest just like europeans can, even if servia would be something like a non-aligned nation.

and i really don't get your criticism about the economic policies. sure, companies get bought, but that happens everywhere around the globe, to all kinds of nations, be it eu-nations, south american ones or asians. and the eu doesn't "suck" resources, it needs them and pays for them. this is how a market usually works.

and slovenia is like the favorite child of brussels, the country has risen from the ashes in no time and has introduced the euro already.
they gdp per capita has skyrocketed during the last 10 years, you think their citizens would give that up, go back in time just to keep their "national" companies national? it all comes with a prize, you can't have everything.

on a sidenote: do you think serbia's growth would have been as staggering as it apparently was if it wasn't for foreign investment?

BalkanBoy
09-26-2007, 03:57 AM
I think you guys are being very, very hard on Rrainer, and even rude. He's been pretty open minded about things we've discussed, considering that they really don't impinge on his life personally at all, and considering that he and his compatriots have been fed an unrelenting stream of one-sided propaganda/exaggeration/fabrication for more than 15 years. There's no need to be so personally insulted about his statements; what is seen as offensive stems more from lack of knowledge than some sort of Teutonic malice.

I agree to some degree but when I'm making a statement, I'm fully responsible of my acts and I don't go in a thread and just talk about things I'm not sure about. It's the same thing about Rrrainer, in the beginning I though he knew very well of what he was talking and I'm just dissapointed because I kind of lost patience arguing with him.

Stensland
09-26-2007, 04:04 AM
I agree to some degree but when I'm making a statement, I'm fully responsible of my acts and I don't go in a thread and just talk about things I'm not sure about. It's the same thing about Rrrainer, in the beginning I though he knew very well of what he was talking and I'm just dissapointed because I kind of lost patience arguing with him.

you're right about some points, but you always come off as a bit, well...in german it'd be "klugscheißer", someone who knows everything better, pretends to be WAY smarter than the rest etc.

not all your points are valid and you've been wrong with your statements several times as well (like the time when you said serbias gdp is higher than bulgaria or something, which it just wasn't).

*edit:

http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&lang=de&searchLoc=0&cmpType=relaxed&sectHdr=on&spellToler=on&search=klugschei%DFer&relink=on

Aloimeh
09-26-2007, 04:07 AM
now we're talking. :)

that "serbia's going down because of russia"-thing was pre-me-apologizing-for-confusin-nato-with-eu, so never mind. ;) serbia won't go down because of russia, sure, but still, i just don't get why people in general would tend to russia if they have the european union and america as a counterpart. i'm in no way russophob or anything like that, but having these two things to choose from...i'm sure i'd go for the western side.

russian companies can come and invest just like europeans can, even if servia would be something like a non-aligned nation.

and i really don't get your criticism about the economic policies. sure, companies get bought, but that happens everywhere around the globe, to all kinds of nations, be it eu-nations, south american ones or asians. and the eu doesn't "suck" resources, it needs them and pays for them. this is how a market usually works.

and slovenia is like the favorite child of brussels, the country has risen from the ashes in no time and has introduced the euro already.
they gdp per capita has skyrocketed during the last 10 years, you think their citizens would give that up, go back in time just to keep their "national" companies national? it all comes with a prize, you can't have everything.

on a sidenote: do you think serbia's growth would have been as staggering as it apparently was if it wasn't for foreign investment?

I think your difficulty in understanding why Serbia would choose Russia stems partly from not understanding the way "trouble zone" politics works, no less in the Balkans. The precise reason why there's a trouble zone is because of the "clash of civilizations." In Indo-China it is Indian modeled civilization (Thailand, Burma, and Cambodia) clashing with Chinese modeled civilization (Vietnam). In the Caucasus it is a clash of Islam, Orthodox Christianity, Armenian Apostolism, pan-Turkic sentiment, Georgian, Armenian, Ingush, Chechen, Ossetian, and Abkhaz nationalisms, and the interference of Orthodox Russia, Shia Iran, and Sunni/pan-Turkic Turkey.

So it is in the Balkans. Each country has a "mother"/mentor to which she looks up culturally and hopes for salvation in times of distress. For Romania it is France. For Serbia and Bulgaria it is Russia. For Croatia and Slovenia it is Germany and Austria. For the Muslims of Bosnia and Albania it is Turkey and other Middle Eastern countries. Therefore, you should find it as no surprise that Serbia/Serbs look upon Russia with affection and admiration - there is religious and ethnic and linguistic kinship, there is a perceived common history of conflict/oppression with the Germanic (including Nordic in Russia's case), Turkic/Mongol, and Catholic (via Croatia, Austria, or Poland as the case may be) worlds, and Russia has assisted Serbia in the past. In the 1870s they helped deliver Serbia from the Turks, in WWI they joined the war on behalf of Austria's attack of Serbia (I am sure Russia's own national interests, not Serbia's were at stake - but that doesn't change the perception), and in WWII Russians liberated Serbia. In the 1990s, Serbia's only allies were Russia, Greece, and an aloof China (which tends to avoid conflict as much as possible).

Given the above, it is little wonder that Serbia looks to Russia for salvation - both for keeping Kosovo and for development. They would love the EU, but unfortunately, I think explicitly or implicitly EU membership is tied to the severance of Kosovo, which is unacceptable. If the EU would ignore the Kosovo issue, Serbia would be beggin to join. However, one cannot expect the EU to accept Serbia with the Kosovo issue unresolved, and they are deadset on giving the Albanians independence as the only solution for the province.

BalkanBoy
09-26-2007, 04:09 AM
now we're talking. :)

that "serbia's going down because of russia"-thing was pre-me-apologizing-for-confusin-nato-with-eu, so never mind. ;) serbia won't go down because of russia, sure, but still, i just don't get why people in general would tend to russia if they have the european union and america as a counterpart. i'm in no way russophob or anything like that, but having these two things to choose from...i'm sure i'd go for the western side.

russian companies can come and invest just like europeans can, even if servia would be something like a non-aligned nation.

and i really don't get your criticism about the economic policies. sure, companies get bought, but that happens everywhere around the globe, to all kinds of nations, be it eu-nations, south american ones or asians. and the eu doesn't "suck" resources, it needs them and pays for them. this is how a market usually works.

and slovenia is like the favorite child of brussels, the country has risen from the ashes in no time and has introduced the euro already.
they gdp per capita has skyrocketed during the last 10 years, you think their citizens would give that up, go back in time just to keep their "national" companies national? it all comes with a prize, you can't have everything.

on a sidenote: do you think serbia's growth would have been as staggering as it apparently was if it wasn't for foreign investment?

Thank god you pull out something :lol:

But listen Serbia would be more than happy to go with EU and America but it has to PAY for something that is his heart KOSOVO. Kosovo is where Serbia was born it's holy and patrimonial place. EU and America betrayed Serbia so much that Serbia is in a very difficult position now and Russia just blocked a resolution in UN that would allow Kosovo to be independent. The resolution was backed by EU and America. It's why for now Serbia is hoping more on Russia because it's helping it to save it's territory. Then the question comes why join an union that wants to steal your territory? You have a good news site for more informations in Serbia http://www.b92.net/eng/ it's the most objective one and winning some EU prizes :)

Bascule
09-26-2007, 04:14 AM
Fmolinari, you missed the topic.
Well, Rrainer, you know, that's an old "bond" between Serbia and Russia. Didn't you get it that we are slavic ortodox people both. That's the key. If you have read Anna Karenina, Tolstoy wrote at the end that after Anna killed herself, Vronski went to Serbia to help serbs against turks and there he get killed. There's a church here built by his sister in his glory. So, what can I tell, it's pretty "storytelling" historical bond. And I'm not really sure in that bond anymore.

Stensland
09-26-2007, 04:17 AM
q aloimeh

great insight once again, but i'm still confused about that whole russia-eu-issue.

so i understand the serbs "generally" look up to the russians as their saviour. that stems from the past, from wars pre-communism mostly. but wouldn't people think that now that the european union is a pretty solid place, a place where money flows like hell to the poorer regions, a place where people can travel without boundaries, work without boundaries to the high-income-countries in order to make some bags of cash etc....wouldn't you think the younger generation is gonna tend to be eu-friendly? i mean, russia nowhere near the eu when it comes to future stability, future living conditions etc.

i understand the two countries go way back, but in ths time and age, in this global world: why the hell would ANYONE choose russia over europe or the states in ANY field, be it militarily, economically or simply socially?

Stensland
09-26-2007, 04:22 AM
Fmolinari, you missed the topic.
Well, Rrainer, you know, that's an old "bond" between Serbia and Russia. Didn't you get it that we are slavic ortodox people both. That's the key. If you have read Anna Karenina, Tolstoy wrote at the end that after Anna killed herself, Vronski went to Serbia to help serbs against turks and there he get killed. There's a church here built by his sister in his glory. So, what can I tell, it's pretty "storytelling" historical bond. And I'm not really sure in that bond anymore.

sorry, but if true, that's crap. that's the same crap nazi germany was fond of, this whole race-stuff. i don't feel conncected to the "nordic" race in any way, nor do i prefer talking to people of aryan or teutonic origin. i have no problem with spaniards, greeks, ukrainians or whoever comes to mind. your point refers to an idealogy that's outdated, thank god. there's no genetic "bond" between people; it only comes down to values and things like that.

Bascule
09-26-2007, 04:26 AM
Actually, when we want to go and live out of Serbia, we usually choose west countries, but somebody already told you all those facts about Kosovo that makes Russia look much friendly than eu countries (or even USA).

BalkanBoy
09-26-2007, 04:32 AM
you're right about some points, but you always come off as a bit, well...in german it'd be "klugscheißer", someone who knows everything better, pretends to be WAY smarter than the rest etc.

not all your points are valid and you've been wrong with your statements several times as well (like the time when you said serbias gdp is higher than bulgaria or something, which it just wasn't).

*edit:

http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&lang=de&searchLoc=0&cmpType=relaxed&sectHdr=on&spellToler=on&search=klugschei%DFer&relink=on

I always try to support my arguments with sources and I did. About Bulgaria I was talking about wages and Serbia has the second highest monthly net wage in the region after Croatia. I really can't find the link now but I remember that Croatia had 650 € Serbia 350€ Rumunia 250€ and Bulgaria 202€. So being in EU isn't a miracle at all. Serbia is doing great without it but it would benefit the whole EU if Serbia was in the party because Serbia has a no tax, no fee trading contract with Russia. Only country in the world to have that with them which could benefit alot of EU companies when trading trough Serbia. But again I think Serbia's place is in EU and 80% of pople there think so, politicians included.

Aloimeh
09-26-2007, 04:37 AM
q aloimeh

great insight once again, but i'm still confused about that whole russia-eu-issue.

so i understand the serbs "generally" look up to the russians as their saviour. that stems from the past, from wars pre-communism mostly. but wouldn't people think that now that the european union is a pretty solid place, a place where money flows like hell to the poorer regions, a place where people can travel without boundaries, work without boundaries to the high-income-countries in order to make some bags of cash etc....wouldn't you think the younger generation is gonna tend to be eu-friendly? i mean, russia nowhere near the eu when it comes to future stability, future living conditions etc.

i understand the two countries go way back, but in ths time and age, in this global world: why the hell would ANYONE choose russia over europe or the states in ANY field, be it militarily, economically or simply socially?

Well, hypothetically speaking, I think Russia can compete with the EU militarily and socially. The Russian arsenal is incredibly strong (more nukes than anyone else) and the US, NATO, EU, China, Japan, etc. still fear Russia's arsenal. The army itself is in a state of disrepair but there has been success in resolving the Chechen situation. Socially? I don't know what that would mean. Culturally, I think Russia has a lot to offer, maybe not quite as diverse as all the EU countries put together, but definitely one a the big cultures of world history. The real point is economically, where I think the EU is a stronger partner. Serbia can offer nothing to Russia except a military base. It doesn't even have an outlet on the sea (Montenegro) anymore. The only thing it controls that Russia might desire to influence is a central position in the Balkans and the Danube river. So I do agree that Serbia should view the Russian option with healthy caution.

On the other hand, I don't see what unique things Serbia can offer to the EU except labor and investment. While the Serbian people are intelligent and talented, their country has always been rooted primarily in agriculture and raw natural resources...there's nothing even close to the high tech, high quality manufacturing culture of, for example Germany and Japan. Perhaps the EU could carve out a niche for Serbia (much as Ireland is a pharmaceuticals base) but I'm not sure.

Speaking more specifically on the case at hand, it seems that EU membership and a Kosovo integrated within Serbia is considered to be incompatible for the EU. The EU wholeheartedly supported the Ahtisaari plan which effectively gives Kosovo independence, and there is strong suspicion that entry is impossible with Kosovo as part of Serbia.

It can't be any secret to you (and I'm not being anti-German here, I hope) that the policy of the EU is essentially set by Germany, France, and the UK. France and the UK betrayed their historical ally Serbia when Germany wanted recognition of Croatia and Slovenia to push through the Maastricht Treaty. Since then, their policies have been synchronized and appear to be somewhat schizophrenic at the moment: on the one hand they dislike the potential for Russian influence through Serbia, so they seek to dismember it (Kosovo, Raska, Vojvodina, not to mention Serb-inhabited Montenegro, Bosnia, and parts of Croatia), but on the other, it would remain a "black hole" in their "empire" if it were the only country in the Balkans not part of the EU. What they would really like to do is to weaken Serbia and Russian influence by dismemberment while not enraging the Serbs to the point of having them reject the EU out of spite (Serbs have been known to do this sort of thing, e.g. at the eve of WWII in Yugoslavia). I think if Kosovo is ripped off with EU support, Serbia is definitely NOT joining the EU, and I think that's also clear to the policymakers in Brussels. That's why the EU is toning it down and hiding behind NATO and the US.

Stensland
09-26-2007, 04:37 AM
I always try to support my arguments with sources and I did. About Bulgaria I was talking about wages and Serbia has the second highest monthly net wage in the region after Croatia. I really can't find the link now but I remember that Croatia had 650 € Serbia 350€ Rumunia 250€ and Bulgaria 202€.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country

i'm not sure about the taxation in the countries you mentioned, but that would be the only thing keeping you alive discussion-wise on this particular topic. ;)

belco
09-29-2007, 06:14 PM
:scratch:

Stensland
10-19-2007, 11:11 PM
the mods totally killed the momentum of this thread... :sad:

Aloimeh
10-19-2007, 11:57 PM
Yes, you can "liven it up" by posting on some contentious (or not so contentious!) Balkan issue, but I think it is as good as dead. Non-tennis is the graveyard of exciting threads.

Stensland
10-20-2007, 12:27 AM
you know what i really like about the balkans these days? they actually make me richer every week. :D

about 3 years ago i invested in this fund that puts his money in the balkan region (mostly serbia, croatia and bosnia) and it turns out to be amazing! check this out:

http://tinyurl.com/yreoxf

i actually believe that the balkan region is one of the most secure emerging markets as it's situated quite well in europe (romania and that lot lies far away from the big markets). i think i'm gonna but some more money in there, though there are only 2 or 3 funds investing in that area. :eek:

guess the markets are still too small for bigger investment companies.

if i had tons of money now, i'd buy large lots of land on the adriatic coast in croatia. that's gonna bring in lots of cash in 10, 20 years.

Aloimeh
10-20-2007, 12:37 AM
you know what i really like about the balkans these days? they actually make me richer every week. :D

about 3 years ago i invested in this fund that puts his money in the balkan region (mostly serbia, croatia and bosnia) and it turns out to be amazing! check this out:

http://tinyurl.com/yreoxf

i actually believe that the balkan region is one of the most secure emerging markets as it's situated quite well in europe (romania and that lot lies far away from the big markets). i think i'm gonna but some more money in there, though there are only 2 or 3 funds investing in that area. :eek:

guess the markets are still too small for bigger investment companies.

if i had tons of money now, i'd buy large lots of land on the adriatic coast in croatia. that's gonna bring in lots of cash in 10, 20 years.

Wow, I'm surprised. But given the volatility, I wouldn't invest in it. Maybe Slovenia and Croatia are stable, but the rest I would stay away from. My prejudices turn out to have been unfounded.

Yes, buying land on the sea coast (Croatia or Montenegro) would be a great investment back in the day, but alas prices are now so expensive that only Russian millionaires can afford to buy up the Montenegrin coastline. Kind of sad, but that's what happens in a free market.

Have you considered the Bulgarian Black Sea coast or even southern Albania? These would probably be much cheaper. Another (far out) place to consider is Georgia or the Black Sea coast of Russia. I have heard this area is beautiful and has a very mild climate, vineyards, etc. A bit far from Germany, though.

Stensland
10-20-2007, 12:50 AM
Wow, I'm surprised. But given the volatility, I wouldn't invest in it. Maybe Slovenia and Croatia are stable, but the rest I would stay away from. My prejudices turn out to have been unfounded.

croatia is the best when it comes to investing in stocks. the idea that the croats will get money from brussels in a couple of years let their stock market skyrocket like hell, that's why i got in there in the first place (and i remember my uncle telling me about the same happening bacl when poland and the czechs were in talks to join the european union). slovenia is not part of the deal anymore because they're actually no emerging market as of now (as defined by the fund i invested in). they caught up with the western markets amazingly fast and their growth rate isn't as staggering as the serbian or croatian rate is.


Yes, buying land on the sea coast (Croatia or Montenegro) would be a great investment back in the day, but alas prices are now so expensive that only Russian millionaires can afford to buy up the Montenegrin coastline. Kind of sad, but that's what happens in a free market.


already?! you sure? even in montenegro? :eek:


Have you considered the Bulgarian Black Sea coast or even southern Albania? These would probably be much cheaper. Another (far out) place to consider is Georgia or the Black Sea coast of Russia. I have heard this area is beautiful and has a very mild climate, vineyards, etc. A bit far from Germany, though.

"..a bit far from germany though" -> well, i'm not gonna wanna live there anyways. ;) just buy it, maybe develop it, then sell it.

i would be thinking about bulgaria as well if i had the money to buy real estate, but there've been lots of tv programms about that coast and it's already quite expensive. THERE you definitely have the russians you were referring to balkans-wise.

i've read some articles about andronico luksic, a croatia-born (?) chilean who's apparently been buying like half the countries realty-wise in the balkans. the coastal areas pretty much belong to him. :eek:

he's a billionaire btw.

Lee
01-27-2008, 04:57 AM
bump

Black Adam
01-27-2008, 05:27 PM
Serbia has an ugly history but so does every country in the world at some point of history. People need to learn the Difference between bashing the Djokers and Serbia as a whole.

Adler
01-27-2008, 06:20 PM
Amen to that

Black Adam
01-27-2008, 07:59 PM
May I ask why the Moderator of this forum felt it was necessary to bring up this thread at this time? There have been some wars between members of this board and bumping this issue today, when the Djokovic hatred has reached dizzy heights is just looking for further confrontation. And it has to be a Mod who is actually behind this :rolleyes:

Lee
01-28-2008, 09:23 PM
May I ask why the Moderator of this forum felt it was necessary to bring up this thread at this time? There have been some wars between members of this board and bumping this issue today, when the Djokovic hatred has reached dizzy heights is just looking for further confrontation. And it has to be a Mod who is actually behind this :rolleyes:

Because there are talks about this already in GM. I asked them to post here instead.

Guess what? After that, nobody wants to talk about politics there or here.

Baghdatis#1
11-09-2008, 05:31 AM
This thread is for discussing current political issues going on in the balkans. These include the Kosovo 'illegal' declaration of independence, the 'illegal' Turkish occupation of Cyprus and the Macedonia naming dispute. Feel free to post your political views about these issues in this thread.

alfonsojose
11-09-2008, 12:30 PM
Go Kosovo :D

Stensland
11-09-2008, 12:57 PM
i miss aloimeh.

JolánGagó
11-09-2008, 03:18 PM
Kosovo is Serbia... or even worse. Period.

The_Nadal_effect
11-09-2008, 04:18 PM
This is cool. :D

El Legenda
11-09-2008, 04:38 PM
Serbia sucks.

finishingmove
11-09-2008, 05:29 PM
nuke the whole world and let the survivors fight for power.

my solution to all the political problems.

BalkanBoy
11-09-2008, 10:13 PM
Serbia sucks.

Listen to your leader.

G4.
11-09-2008, 11:01 PM
Kosovo is Serbia, Kosovo is a jewel of christianity

q.j.
11-09-2008, 11:43 PM
Kosovo is Serbia, Kosovo is a jewel of christianity


:lol: you are evil, you're fueling their fire :p

Baghdatis#1
11-11-2008, 02:29 AM
My political views on the Balkans(which I will probably get bad reps from):
Kosovo is Serbia!
Macedonia is Greece!(the name is Greek. The land of Vardarska is Vardarska/FYRO'M'.
Somewhat Balkans related- Turks out of Cyprus! Exw oi tourkoi apo thn kupro!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jaap
11-11-2008, 01:33 PM
WTF? When did I start a Balkans discussion thread? Must have been drunk.

GlennMirnyi
11-11-2008, 02:39 PM
WTF? When did I start a Balkans discussion thread? Must have been drunk.

:lol:

I thought the exact same thing... how come Jaap created such a thread?

I'm sure the mods merged some thread of yours with another one and kept the other thread's title.

GlennMirnyi
11-11-2008, 02:42 PM
Yeah, the original thread of yours was "Fakervic was offered 110000 pounds to throw a match" or something.

Bascule
11-11-2008, 04:02 PM
:lol:
Finally this thread to be relaxing.

EKSTREMISTA
11-24-2008, 12:10 PM
It's time to end Serb-bashing

The Serbs have been demonised because they have consistently got in the way of the west's hegemonic ambitions in the region

Neil Clark Guardian.co.uk


On Cif last week Anna di Lellio, who was a political adviser to the former Kosovan prime minister and one-time Kosovan Liberation Army chief of staff, Agim Çeku, claimed that "Serbian nationalism briefly subdued after the fall of Milosevic" is back in full force with its "old tactics". Di Lellio offers very little evidence to back up her assertion, except a declaration from the Serbian parliament that - horror of horrors - the country is determined to defend its territorial integrity in compliance with international law.
What is undoubtedly "back in force" with all its "old tactics" is Serb-bashing, of which Di Lellio is only one of many culprits in the western media (including, it must sadly be said, Cif). The Serbs have been demonised not because they were the party most responsible for the wars of secession in the 1990s - they were not - but because they have consistently got in the way of the west's hegemonic ambitions in the region.
The west wanted Yugoslavia destroyed, with one militarily strong, independent state replaced by several weak and divided Nato/IMF/EU protectorates. "In post-cold war Europe no place remained for a large, independent-minded socialist state that resisted globalisation," admitted George Kenney, former Yugoslavia desk officer of the US state department.
The Serbs' great "crime" was not reading the script. Out of all the groups in the former Yugoslavia, the Serbs, whose population was spread across the country, had most to lose from the country's disintegration. At a meeting at The Hague in October 1991, the leaders of the six constituent republics were presented with a paper entitled "The End of Yugoslavia from the International Scene" by European Community "arbitrators". Only one of them - the Serb leader Slobodan Milosevic - refused to sign his country's death certificate. "Yugoslavia was not created by the consensus of six men and cannot be dissolved by the consensus of six men," he declared.
For his pro-Yugoslav stance, Milosevic was rewarded with over a decade of demonisation in the west's media. Despite his regular election victories in a country where 21 political parties freely operated, Milosevic was (and is) routinely labelled a "dictator", a description which even his consistently hostile biographer Adam LeBor concedes is "incorrect". Some of the attempts to incriminate Milosevic for events he played no part in have been ludicrous: in a Guardian article in 2006 Timothy Garton Ash, a professor of European studies, wrote of Slovenes "trying to break away from Slobodan Milosevic's Yugoslavia in 1991", even though the leader of Yugoslavia at the time was the Croat Ante Markovic (a correction to the claim was published).
In the standard western rewrite of history, Slobo and the Serbs were also to blame for the break-out of war in Bosnia. Yet the man who lit the blue touch paper for that brutal conflict war was not Milosevic, nor the Bosnian-Serb leaders, but the US ambassador Warren Zimmerman, who persuaded Bosnian separatist Alija Izetbegovic to renege on his signing of the 1992 Lisbon agreement, which had provided for the peaceful division of the republic.
Even after the 1995 Dayton agreement brought an end to a totally unnecessary conflict, there was to be no let up in the west's Serbophobia. In Kosovo, the west's strategic objectives meant them siding with the hardliners of the Kosovo Liberation Army, a group, officially classified as a terrorist organisation by the US state department.
No one, certainly no Serb of my acquaintance, denies that Serb forces committed atrocities in the Balkan wars and that those responsible should be held accountable in a court of law (though not one financed by the powers who illegally bombed their country less than 10 years ago). But what makes Serbs so incensed is that whereas Serbian atrocities have received the full glare of the western media spotlight, atrocities committed by other parties in the conflict are all but ignored.While massive media attention focused on the relatively low-scale tit-for-tat hostilities between Yugoslav forces and the KLA in 1998/9, Operation Storm - where an estimated 200,000 Serbs were driven out of Croatia in an operation which received logistical and technical support from the US - is hardly mentioned. No publicity, either, for massacres such as the slaughter, on Orthodox Christmas Day 1993, of 49 Serbs in the village of Kravice, near Srebrenica. The town recently held a commemorative service to mark the 15th anniversary of the atrocity: no members of "the international community" were present.
Now, with Kosovo again in the headlines, the Serb-bashers are once more out in force. Once again, the dispute is being portrayed in Manichean terms. While much is made of the treatment of Kosovan Albanians by Yugoslav forces in 1998/9, little is said about the KLA's campaign of intimidation which led to an exodus of an estimated 200,000 Serbs, Roma, Bosnians, Jews and other minorities from the province after "the international community" moved in.
"Nowhere in Europe is there such segregation as Kosovo ... Nowhere else are there so many 'ethnically pure' towns and villages scattered across such a small province. Nowhere is there such a level of fear for so many minorities that they will be harassed simply for who they are. For the Serbs and 'other minorities', who suffer from expulsion from their homes, discrimination and restrictions on speaking their own language, the pattern of violence they have endured for so long may be about to be entrenched as law in the new Kosovo, as the future status talks continue.",
So concludes the Minority Rights Group report on "liberated" Kosovo - but hey, let's brush that one under the carpet because it doesn't blame Serbs.
The double standards imposed where Serbs are concerned are breathtaking. Independence for Kosovo is a simple issue of self-determination, we are repeatedly told. Yet the same principle does not apply to Bosnian Serbs who wish to join up with Serbia.
Instead of championing Kosovan secessionism in contravention of international law, Britain and the west should, in fact, be reconsidering its policy towards Serbia. It's too late to undo past crimes - such as the barbarous 1999 Nato bombing campaign - but changing its policy on Kosovo would at least be a start on redressing the injustices of the last 20 years. It's high time we gave the Serbs a break.

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/neil_clark/2008/01/its_time_to_end_serbbashing.html

bokehlicious
11-24-2008, 12:12 PM
AJDE SRBIJA! :rocker2:

VolandriFan
11-24-2008, 12:13 PM
I liked the most handsome Balkan thread more :sad:

JustDoIt
11-24-2008, 12:14 PM
Kosovo je Srbija :shrug:

JolánGagó
11-25-2008, 12:23 PM
That The Guardian article is illiterate bullshit from O to K.

vucina
11-25-2008, 12:57 PM
That The Guardian article is illiterate bullshit from O to K.

Why do you hate your own people Farenhajt? :sad:

«Ivan»
11-25-2008, 01:20 PM
Serbia sucks.

bih smells.go wash yourself.only sundays?
i like this people in FYROM but macedonia is greek name, part of great greek history.
fyroms have to deal with it and don't blame greece.tito is one to blame.

EKSTREMISTA
11-26-2008, 10:28 AM
Kosovo je Srbija :shrug:

:clap2: