What are the religions of the players? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

What are the religions of the players?

lleytonfan!
09-15-2007, 11:13 AM
What are the religions of the players, and are they practicing or non practicing?

I know that Michael Change was a very devout Christian. That's why I was a fan of him, because I am as well.

Action Jackson
09-15-2007, 11:27 AM
Davydenko = Religion of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

This thread is looking for trouble.

Jaffas85
09-15-2007, 11:28 AM
If they have any sense then they will be either agnostic or athiest.

Religion is merely the product of different cultures and to genuinely believe in a religion is because you're not looking at something objectively and are being way too 'loyal' towards your own culture or simply because you are a victim of childhood religious indoctrination.

I know Federer has said he's catholic but he probably just says that because his parents are and he hasn't actually sat down and critically thought about it, prolly because its something he's completely indifferent to and gives no thought to at all (like most younger people who say they're religious, excluding the nutters of course).

barbadosan
09-15-2007, 11:30 AM
Surely that's their own private business!

Action Jackson
09-15-2007, 11:32 AM
A combo of Orthodox, Jewish, Catholic, Protestant.

It doesn't matter what religion they are really. Like Safin is a Muslim, but that isn't going to make me like him or dislike him more.

lleytonfan!
09-15-2007, 11:38 AM
If they have any sense then they will be either agnostic or athiest.

Religion is merely the product of different cultures and to genuinely believe in a religion is because you're not looking at something objectively and are being way too 'loyal' towards your own culture or simply because you are a victim of childhood religious indoctrination.

I know Federer has said he's catholic but he probably just says that because his parents are and he hasn't actually sat down and critically thought about it, prolly because its something he's completely indifferent to and gives no thought to at all (like most younger people who say they're religious, excluding the nutters of course).

To the contrary, Atheists and Agnostics are ignorant idiots. They go to hell as well.

Jaffas85
09-15-2007, 11:44 AM
To the contrary, Atheists and Agnostics are ignorant idiots. They go to hell as well.

Lol.

Personally I'm agnostic and in today's day and age I don't see how someone could be anything else (well, except for scientists who tend to er on the side of athiesm).

I'm agnostic, and not athiest, because I believe something must have initiated the big bang and I'd also like to think theres is more to life than what we just see in day to day life but ultimately, to genuinely believe something, there needs to be reasonable proof and evidence and until that happens I'll remain open minded yet skeptical.

Religion is purely the product of the culture you were influenced by when growing up and is not objective. When civilisation arises different cultures will arise as well and religion is often a component of that in trying to explain the world around that culture and also as a guideline for societal values.

lleytonfan!
09-15-2007, 12:05 PM
Lol.

Personally I'm agnostic and in today's day and age I don't see how someone could be anything else (well, except for scientists who tend to er on the side of athiesm).

I'm agnostic, and not athiest, because I believe something must have initiated the big bang and I'd also like to think theres is more to life than what we just see in day to day life but ultimately, to genuinely believe something, there needs to be reasonable proof and evidence and until that happens I'll remain open minded yet skeptical.

Religion is purely the product of the culture you were influenced by when growing up and is not objective. When civilisation arises different cultures will arise as well and religion is often a component of that in trying to explain the world around that culture and also as a guideline for societal values.

One of the reasons why I am cold towards Atheist is because they show no respect for the beliefs of others. Your post is a prime example.

Scotso
09-15-2007, 12:12 PM
What are the religions of the players, and are they practicing or non practicing?

I know that Michael Change was a very devout Christian. That's why I was a fan of him, because I am as well.

Typically people who are fans of someone know how to spell their name.

Jaffas85
09-15-2007, 12:14 PM
One of the reasons why I am cold towards Atheist is because they show no respect for the beliefs of others. Your post is a prime example.

But why is it that a person may debate contentious political or social beliefs with another person but not religious beliefs?

Why is that so untouchable?

Surely we are all searching for the truth about the world and universe so, if anything, it should be the most debated.

OrinUK
09-15-2007, 12:18 PM
Isn't Fed a Catholic?

Action Jackson
09-15-2007, 12:18 PM
Typically people who are fans of someone know how to spell their name.

Agreed.

Jaffas85
09-15-2007, 12:22 PM
Isn't Fed a Catholic?

I reckon he's just one of those people that say they're Catholic because it's what their parents are, or what was spoken about when they were younger, but he's probably indifferent to religion and just considers himself 'catholic' because it's what his family is and hasn't actually sat down and critically thought about it.

But then again he could very well be genuinely catholic but I don't especially get that impression.

lleytonfan!
09-15-2007, 12:31 PM
But why is it that a person may debate contentious political or social beliefs with another person but not religious beliefs?

Why is that so untouchable?

Surely we are all searching for the truth about the world and universe so, if anything, it should be the most debated.

We may debate it, I'm not saying that we shouldn't.

I am, however, saying that we should rrespect each other's points of views, and not try to devalue them.

lleytonfan!
09-15-2007, 12:36 PM
Agreed.

I'm sure you've never made a typo. :rolleyes:

Action Jackson
09-15-2007, 12:38 PM
I'm sure you've never made a typo. :rolleyes:

It wasn't me who said the original comment, but hey I am going to hell, because I agreed with scotso.

Scotso
09-15-2007, 12:58 PM
I'm sure you've never made a typo. :rolleyes:

I would think that if you made a "typo" while typing someone's name, you would immediately realize and correct the error.

case
09-15-2007, 01:17 PM
One of the reasons why I am cold towards Atheist is because they show no respect for the beliefs of others. Your post is a prime example.

you are disrespecting atheists with that comment and intolerant of other peoples beliefs.

Atheists have never started crusades, inquisitions, witch hunts, holocausts, wars, civil wars, or burned people at the stake or run around in white sheets and burn them on the cross.
Or if you dont agree with them they tell you you will go to hell!

Give me an atheist any day. What a wonderful world it would be.
Imagine

DhammaTiger
09-15-2007, 01:29 PM
you are disrespecting atheists with that comment and intolerant of other peoples beliefs.

Atheists have never started crusades, inquisitions, witch hunts, holocausts, wars, civil wars, or burned people at the stake or run around in white sheets and burn them on the cross.
Or if you dont agree with them they tell you you will go to hell!

Give me an atheist any day. What a wonderful world it would be.
Imagine

What a wonderful response to this religious fanatic. Trying to impose their moral judgements on others. For the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone should care what religion others are. I don't even ask, or care what religion or non religion my friends or aquaintances are to care about total strangers who I just see on tv. Tennis players are just that and we should appreciate their game regardless of what religion or ethnicity they are. As for Federer, I heard him say, he wasn't religious. Whether he is a Catholic or worships carrots, it has absolutely nothing to do with his admirable tennis skills.
People who post these religious threads are just fanatics and don't care about anything except their irrational views.

Zirconek
09-15-2007, 01:37 PM
Michael used to be catholic, converted to hedonism, and now even adopted a new name: Michael Changes :p

Jim Jones
09-15-2007, 02:44 PM
you are disrespecting atheists with that comment and intolerant of other peoples beliefs.

Atheists have never started crusades, inquisitions, witch hunts, holocausts, wars, civil wars, or burned people at the stake or run around in white sheets and burn them on the cross.
Or if you dont agree with them they tell you you will go to hell!

Give me an atheist any day. What a wonderful world it would be.
Imagine
So to you Pol Pot, Stalin, Kim Il Sung are what if they are not atheists?

Atheists can be barbaric too if not worse.

Rumour
09-15-2007, 03:11 PM
This thread was always guaranteed to stay on topic and move along swimmingly :rolleyes: Interestingly enough, it's the non-religious folk who tend to start off the derailing with the 'why should anyone care?' line (which they apparently don't take to heart themselves) and then proceed to mock people for their beliefs. The posters of faith shoot back with their own heated responses, often invoking damnation, hellfire etc. for the non-believers (setting such a positive example in the process), and it's all downhill from there...

guille&tati4life
09-15-2007, 03:22 PM
To the contrary, Atheists and Agnostics are ignorant idiots. They go to hell as well.

What a disturbing individual you are. First, you like players based on their religion, it is clear then that you prefer Christians to Muslims. That's a pretty disturbing view to hold. Secondly, to declare atheists and agnostics to be ignorant idiots? Are you nuts? Some of the most important, influential and intelligent people i have come across hold one of these two beliefs.

Ok, let's say that atheists and agnostics are indeed ignorant idiots, I suppose you can prove to all us ignorant idiots that your theory is correct. May i remind you that an agnostic believes that there is not enough evidence to believe in God. If you can prove the agnostic to be an ignorant idiot then you must be able to prove that there is a God. Considering the sheer idiocy of your posts, I find it most unlikely that you'll be able to prove that there is a God.

The quoted post could be seen as insulting to a great many people reading it. I will accept your apology when you decide to give me it. :D :wavey:

Jim Jones
09-15-2007, 03:30 PM
What a disturbing individual you are. First, you like players based on their religion, it is clear then that you prefer Christians to Muslims. That's a pretty disturbing view to hold. Secondly, to declare atheists and agnostics to be ignorant idiots? Are you nuts? Some of the most important, influential and intelligent people i have come across hold one of these two beliefs.

Ok, let's say that atheists and agnostics are indeed ignorant idiots, I suppose you can prove to all us ignorant idiots that your theory is correct. May i remind you that an agnostic believes that there is not enough evidence to believe in God. If you can prove the agnostic to be an ignorant idiot then you must be able to prove that there is a God. Considering the sheer idiocy of your posts, I find it most unlikely that you'll be able to prove that there is a God.

The quoted post could be seen as insulting to a great many people reading it. I will accept your apology when you decide to give me it. :D :wavey:
I had a good laugh when I read your thread. What makes you think that he likes Christians more then he does Muslims? Even if he does so what? Don't you prefer non religious peoiple to religious people.

As for me I do not like Christians more then I love Muslims. I prefer Christianity more then I prefer Islam. I prefer Buddhism more then I prefer Islam, I prefer Hinduism more then I prefer Islam. I also much prefer agnostism to atheism so hope that answers your questions.

You come across as a hypocrite. You do not seem to like religion which is your right yet you start showing off your colors when one person seems to not like one religion.

guille&tati4life
09-15-2007, 03:36 PM
I had a good laugh when I read your thread. What makes you think that he likes Christians more then he does Muslims? Even if he does so what? Don't you prefer non religious peoiple to religious people.

As for me I do not like Christians more then I love Muslims. I prefer Christianity more then I prefer Islam. I prefer Buddhism more then I prefer Islam, I prefer Hinduism more then I prefer Islam. I also much prefer agnostism to atheism so hope that answers your questions.

You come across as a hypocrite. You do not seem to like religion which is your right yet you start showing off your colors when one person seems to not like one religion.

The fat that he supported one player just cos he was a devout Christian.
So, I don't think you should like people based on their religion.
No, I judge people on different things, my best friend is Christian.

I don't see how this is hypocracy, I don't like religion but i judge no people based on their religion unless their religion influences them to do things which I find highly disturbing. Where's the hypocracy?

mashamaniac
09-15-2007, 03:36 PM
what's obvious is that marat is a muslim...dunno about others!

neeob
09-15-2007, 04:40 PM
To the contrary, Atheists and Agnostics are ignorant idiots. They go to hell as well.

:devil:
Atheists arent ignorant. It's the contrary.

R.Federer
09-15-2007, 04:59 PM
I believe Pat Rafter is Catholic, and he was giving some sort of monetary support to some Catholic charities in Australia.

I assume Djokovic is Christian because he wears a cross and appears to do the Hail Mary when he saves a break point :D

Allure
09-15-2007, 05:07 PM
Federer follows a religion called Fedolism, a religion he created and he worships God aka himself.

Fee
09-15-2007, 06:35 PM
Oh my Zeus...

Didn't we do this before?

star
09-15-2007, 07:11 PM
To the contrary, Atheists and Agnostics are ignorant idiots. They go to hell as well.

:haha:

Such a nice way christians have of talking. :lol:

TennisGrandSlam
09-15-2007, 07:33 PM
A combo of Orthodox, Jewish, Catholic, Protestant.

It doesn't matter what religion they are really. Like Safin is a Muslim, but that isn't going to make me like him or dislike him more.

Generally, Tatar is Muslim.

But does Safin pratise Islam? If not, he is not Muslim.


What are the religions of the players, and are they practicing or non practicing?

I know that Michael Change was a very devout Christian. That's why I was a fan of him, because I am as well.

Michael Chang, not Michael Change

Chang is Chinese surname 張 :devil:

Burrow
09-15-2007, 07:52 PM
Might have been said several times but Safin is Muslim, but Im not going through the whole thread.

joyk
09-15-2007, 07:53 PM
To the contrary, Atheists and Agnostics are ignorant idiots. They go to hell as well.
The hell you say,I`m an idiot for refusing to believe bedtime stories?

R.Federer
09-15-2007, 07:54 PM
Williams are Jehovah's Witnesses and I am guessing Qureshi is Muslim and Levy is Jewish.

case
09-15-2007, 08:50 PM
So to you Pol Pot, Stalin, Kim Il Sung are what if they are not atheists?

Atheists can be barbaric too if not worse.

They aren't worse and I dont see how you can compare. Wishful thinking on your part.

If it is numbers you want:

Hitler. what 6 million to promote a master race of christians
Spain brought death to how many central and south americans? no exact number available, since the monks kept most of the records. look it up some say 54 MILLION DEATHS some say 60 MILLION DEATHS in the americas.
"New AMERICAN" tainted blankets with disease to kill "native americans"
Australia? New Zealand? should we go where there was a supposed price on the "native peoples".
No idea on how many arab people were killed with the crusades, but bush's current one has about a million deaths by some counts.(those neighbors had lived together for a thousand years before bush twisted everything.)
The former Yugoslavia.
Slavery was ok'd in the bible.
Do i really need to go on?

All of these had religion as a major force and the rest was the typical human death and destruction to one's fellow human being.


I DONT COME TO MTF TO TALK GOD> TALK TO YOUR MINISTER< RABBI< PRIEST or whomever your religious leader would be but leave me alone to my tennis one hour or so a week

Adler
09-15-2007, 08:57 PM
Who cares... this thread changed into atheist/theists bashing thread. As expected

Winston's Human
09-15-2007, 09:03 PM
Who cares... this thread changed into atheist/theists bashing thread. As expected

This thread simply shows the "tolerance" of both sides.

Rogiman
09-15-2007, 09:08 PM
To the contrary, Atheists and Agnostics are ignorant idiots. They go to hell as well.

I am, however, saying that we should rrespect each other's points of views, and not try to devalue them.:retard: :haha:

Anyway, religions suck.

GustavoM_Fan
09-15-2007, 09:09 PM
Federer: Christian. not practicant
Nadal: Christian.. ?????
Djokovic: Christian... ????
Davydenko: Orthodoxist...not practicant :shrug: Atheist
Roddick: Protestant... ??????

hra87
09-15-2007, 09:17 PM
Federer: Christian. not practicant
Nadal: Christian.. ?????
Djokovic: Christian... ????
Davydenko: Orthodoxist...not practicant :shrug: Atheist
Roddick: Protestant... ??????

Nadal is Agnostic.

Tennis Fool
09-15-2007, 09:38 PM
To put this thread slightly back on subject, I know Shahar Peer was lauded as the first Israeli woman to get to the Quarters of the US Open. Mary Carillo at first said she was "the first Jewish woman", then corrected herself.

The Williams sisters always thank Jehovah after winning titles. Mary Pierce is a devout Christian. Andrea Jaeger just recently became a nun.

Marat may have been the first Muslim to win a Slam?, but not sure...

Sania Mirza is Muslim, and has had a fatwa placed on her by some fundamentalists for wearing "skimpy" outfits...

FluffyYellowBall
09-15-2007, 09:44 PM
you are disrespecting atheists with that comment and intolerant of other peoples beliefs.

Atheists have never started crusades, inquisitions, witch hunts, holocausts, wars, civil wars, or burned people at the stake or run around in white sheets and burn them on the cross.
Or if you dont agree with them they tell you you will go to hell!

Give me an atheist any day. What a wonderful world it would be.
Imagine

yes they did..Against muslims, christians, jews etc. Who started it doesnt matter, they all did at one point but athiests dont believe in anthing therefore they cant be a group of believers like christians jews, muslims etc.

Adler
09-15-2007, 10:00 PM
This thread simply shows the "tolerance" of both sides.
just tolerance of some group of people from both sides, many others can coexist well and peacefully

FluffyYellowBall
09-15-2007, 10:25 PM
Generally, Tatar is Muslim.

But does Safin pratise Islam? If not, he is not Muslim.




Michael Chang, not Michael Change

Chang is Chinese surname 張 :devil:

I bet he doesnt practise it but he says hes muslim. The necklace he always wears is an extract from the quraan which many people wear. Maybe he does un-islamic things but he said hes muslim and never said anything about believeing in god, like nadal did.

Farenhajt
09-15-2007, 10:26 PM
Djokovic was raised in an Orthodox Christian tradition (which can be concluded from the way he crosses himself - three fingers and right-hand side first, unlike Catholics, who do it with open palm and left-hand side first). Whether he's a practitioner though (churches, candles, fasting, confessions etc. etc.) - I don't have a slightest idea. Perhaps is to a very basic extent (Xmas, Easter, patron saint).

Just imagine Nole's confession... "Forgive me, Father, for I have sinned... I've bounced the ball 48,392 times in the last two weeks..." :lol:

soraya
09-15-2007, 11:01 PM
What a wonderful response to this religious fanatic. Trying to impose their moral judgements on others. For the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone should care what religion others are. I don't even ask, or care what religion or non religion my friends or aquaintances are to care about total strangers who I just see on tv. Tennis players are just that and we should appreciate their game regardless of what religion or ethnicity they are. As for Federer, I heard him say, he wasn't religious. Whether he is a Catholic or worships carrots, it has absolutely nothing to do with his admirable tennis skills.
People who post these religious threads are just fanatics and don't care about anything except their irrational views.

:hatoff:Excellent reply.

Deboogle!.
09-16-2007, 12:24 AM
Federer: Christian. not practicant
Nadal: Christian.. ?????
Djokovic: Christian... ????
Davydenko: Orthodoxist...not practicant :shrug: Atheist
Roddick: Protestant... ??????Andy's Catholic but he never particularly discusses religion, I'd be shocked to find out he's religious or observant :lol:

I don't see the problem with discussing players' religions and I don't see the problem with liking the fact that a player practices the same religion as they do. I like hearing about Jewish players and following them, lots of Jews have a sense of community and are always comforted to meet other Jews and support Jewish celebrities. It doesn't make people fanatics. I also like following players who are lefties, does that make me a lefty cultist? :rolls:

What I can't fathom is why people have to always attack and be so mean in GM; this thread could easily go on without anyone insulting anyone else or anyone's religions, my gosh. Nice to know I go away for almost 2 months and nothing changes in GM :yeah:

Regenbogen
09-16-2007, 12:39 AM
I don't see the problem with discussing players' religions and I don't see the problem with liking the fact that a player practices the same religion as they do. I like hearing about Jewish players and following them, lots of Jews have a sense of community and are always comforted to meet other Jews and support Jewish celebrities. It doesn't make people fanatics. I also like following players who are lefties, does that make me a lefty cultist? :rolls:


Yeah, I think it's a perfectly legitimate thing to be interested in. I'm a tennis fan; I like to know more about the players. :shrug:

Alex999
09-16-2007, 12:43 AM
I'm confused. Marat is Russian. Aren't all Russians Orthodox Christians? I'm sorry if this is an ignorant question.

Deboogle!.
09-16-2007, 12:57 AM
I'm confused. Marat is Russian. Aren't all Russians Orthodox Christians? I'm sorry if this is an ignorant question.I've never heard of a country, especially not one as big as Russia, who has residents who are ALL one religion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia#Language_and_religion

darnyelb
09-16-2007, 01:23 AM
In my opinion, you don't have a religion if you don't truly believe in and practice it. Anything else and you're pretty much playing dress-up.

The only one I remember being vocal about their religion/faith was Michael Chang, who I think once implied that God favored him in the French Open final that he won.

Farenhajt
09-16-2007, 01:29 AM
I'm confused. Marat is Russian. Aren't all Russians Orthodox Christians? I'm sorry if this is an ignorant question.

Marat is Russian CITIZEN, but of Tatar NATIONALITY.

Deboogle!.
09-16-2007, 01:37 AM
In my opinion, you don't have a religion if you don't truly believe in and practice it. Anything else and you're pretty much playing dress-up.

The only one I remember being vocal about their religion/faith was Michael Chang, who I think once implied that God favored him in the French Open final that he won.Well that's your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it, but I think a lot of people don't share it, particularly probably 90% of the world's Jews, who are very passionate and proud, but don't observe the actual traditions. And questioning one's beliefs is a huge part of the process, so I'd venture to say that the vast majority of the people in the world who would identify themselves as a particular religion who have questions or doubts and might not "truly" believe it would all be what, agnostic or atheist by your standards? But it's a personal thing, so whatever each person feels is what's important; if I feel Jewish even though I eat on Yom Kippur and write on Saturdays, that's my right. And that's why it's so saddening to see the disgusting insults and blanket statements in this thread :( And anyway, this thread doesn't have to turn into a discussion on religion. I don't see why people can't just discuss players' religion without actually saying things that might be offensive to people. I really just don't get it :shrug:

And if people feel like they would identify with certain players who share their religion, I think that's totally cool, regardless of the extent of how religious anyone actually is :shrug: I feel like the discussion could be an interesting one, but not if people can just be respectful about it all.

Jim Jones
09-16-2007, 01:38 AM
They aren't worse and I dont see how you can compare. Wishful thinking on your part.

If it is numbers you want:

Hitler. what 6 million to promote a master race of christians
Spain brought death to how many central and south americans? no exact number available, since the monks kept most of the records. look it up some say 54 MILLION DEATHS some say 60 MILLION DEATHS in the americas.
"New AMERICAN" tainted blankets with disease to kill "native americans"
Australia? New Zealand? should we go where there was a supposed price on the "native peoples".
No idea on how many arab people were killed with the crusades, but bush's current one has about a million deaths by some counts.(those neighbors had lived together for a thousand years before bush twisted everything.)
The former Yugoslavia.
Slavery was ok'd in the bible.
Do i really need to go on?

All of these had religion as a major force and the rest was the typical human death and destruction to one's fellow human being.


I DONT COME TO MTF TO TALK GOD> TALK TO YOUR MINISTER< RABBI< PRIEST or whomever your religious leader would be but leave me alone to my tennis one hour or so a week
Oh I found this about Nazism and Chrisitanity.

'Hitler extended his rationalizations into a religious doctrine, underpinned by his criticism of traditional Catholicism. In particular, and closely related to Positive Christianity, Hitler objected to Catholicism's ungrounded and international character — that is, it did not pertain to an exclusive race and national culture. At the same time, and somewhat contradictory, the Nazis combined elements of Germany's Lutheran community tradition with its northern European, organic pagan past. Elements of militarism found their way into Hitler's own theology; he preached that his was a "true" or "master" religion, because it would "create mastery" and avoid comforting lies. Those who preached love and tolerance, "in contravention to the facts", were said to be "slave" or "false" religions. The man who recognized these "truths", Hitler continued, was said to be a "natural leader", and those who denied it were said to be "natural slaves". "Slaves" — especially intelligent ones, he claimed — were always attempting to hinder their masters by promoting false religious and political doctrines'.


Seems that Nazis blended Christianity with its pagan past. Nazis were anti-Catholic, the dominant religion of Germans and this was one of their foolish ideas that they had. Paganism, what next?

Oh so your poor arabs were killed in Crusades. I suppose you never heard of jihads, have you?

So to you the white man is an evil guy judging by you saying that Europeans brought misery to this and that place. I guess that the american Indians wre all pacifists, eh. The funny thing is that you are most likely a white guy. :lol:

Also far more people died under Stalin then any other ruler.

Farenhajt
09-16-2007, 01:50 AM
In general: How do you think a sportsman could reconcile caloric dietary habits (which should include a lot of proteins and controlled but obligatory intake of carbohydrates and fat) with religions that propose fasting on regular yearly schedule?

sawan66278
09-16-2007, 02:01 AM
In general: How do you think a sportsman could reconcile caloric dietary habits (which should include a lot of proteins and controlled but obligatory intake of carbohydrates and fat) with religions that propose fasting on regular yearly schedule?

Ask Hakeem Olajuwon. He fasted during Ramadan, and his stats actually IMPROVED during that month while fasting.

G4.
09-16-2007, 02:10 AM
yeah yeah Jim Jones you should read about the "valladolid debate" and learn what the Christian church thought about the africans

trixtah
09-16-2007, 02:15 AM
Ask Hakeem Olajuwon. He fasted during Ramadan, and his stats actually IMPROVED during that month while fasting.

Was it actual fasting or the practice of fasting that a lot under that religion practice--where they don't fast only during certain hours?

Jaffas85
09-16-2007, 03:08 AM
Despite the fact that I am Agnostic, and not Athiest, I'd like to direct anyone interested to critic's and readers' reviews of Richard Dawkins' best selling book, "The God Delusion" which encourages people to think for themselves and to finally see that religion is merely the product of different cultures and that to think that we must believe in the 'supernatural' to observe morals then that is surely a contempturous view of morality:

http://www.amazon.com/God-Delusion-Richard-Dawkins/dp/0618680004/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-8312265-8744620?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189908048&sr=8-1

Also, here is a link to Dawkins' website:

http://richarddawkins.net/

Oh and BTW, While I can tolerate people's religious beliefs as they may have been the victim of childhood indoctrination thus can't look at things with objectivity anyone who believes in creationism, and not evolution, is clearly someone who has been brainwashed and is just unable to look at things that are scientifically real about the world. Basically, Creationists are simply crazy as people, especially Americans, to want to teach that junk to young students in school is cleary reprehensible.

hra87
09-16-2007, 04:03 AM
I haven't read the vast majority of this thread, but let's see if I can summarize:

The Religious: I'm better than you because I'm more moral!
The Non-Religious: I'm better than you because I'm smarter!

The people who get into these sorts of arguments tend to be extremely self-righteous; I prefer the people who don't, on either side (I happen to be the latter).

Winston's Human
09-16-2007, 04:23 AM
Andy's Catholic but he never particularly discusses religion, I'd be shocked to find out he's religious or observant :lol:


Thanks Deb.

I thought that Andy was Catholic, but I could not remember where I had read it. I might have just surmised it from the part of Wisconsin where his parents grew up (which is not far from where my grandparents lived).

R.Federer
09-16-2007, 04:38 AM
Federer enjoyed a meeting with the Pope -- don't know if he requested for one (I'm pretty sure the Pope didn't request that meeting :lol: )
I have not heard of his being particularly religious, but who knows.

R.Federer
09-16-2007, 04:38 AM
I've never heard of a country, especially not one as big as Russia, who has residents who are ALL one religion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia#Language_and_religion

I am pretty sure all the citizens of the Vatican City belong to one religion only,100% of them

tangerine_dream
09-16-2007, 04:43 AM
Thanks Deb.

I thought that Andy was Catholic, but I could not remember where I had read it. I might have just surmised it from the part of Wisconsin where his parents grew up (which is not far from where my grandparents lived).
According to Andy's genealogy, he is Protestant not Catholic.

sawan66278
09-16-2007, 04:44 AM
Was it actual fasting or the practice of fasting that a lot under that religion practice--where they don't fast only during certain hours?

He neither ate, nor drank, nor had sexual relations, smoked, or chewed gum from sunrise to sunset. For an entire month! I remember one game against the Bulls where Hakeem outplayed Michael Jordan while fasting. Charles Barkley said it was one of the most incredible things he had ever seen on the basketball court.

hra87
09-16-2007, 05:05 AM
He neither ate, nor drank, nor had sexual relations, smoked, or chewed gum from sunrise to sunset. For an entire month! I remember one game against the Bulls where Hakeem outplayed Michael Jordan while fasting. Charles Barkley said it was one of the most incredible things he had ever seen on the basketball court.

Not to take anything away from what he did, but he did drink/eat/pray at half-time (by then it was usually sunset).

Magus13
09-16-2007, 05:15 AM
The less i know about a players religion, the more I like them.
"Fear is your only God"

Winston's Human
09-16-2007, 05:47 AM
According to Andy's genealogy, he is Protestant not Catholic.

Oops on my part.

Johnny Groove
09-16-2007, 05:54 AM
I read somewhere that Marat is muslim, but he doesnt practice it because he likes beer too much :rolleyes:

Is this true? :lol:

Paul Banks
09-16-2007, 06:32 AM
Despite the fact that I am Agnostic, and not Athiest, I'd like to direct anyone interested to critic's and readers' reviews of Richard Dawkins' best selling book, "The God Delusion" which encourages people to think for themselves and to finally see that religion is merely the product of different cultures and that to think that we must believe in the 'supernatural' to observe morals then that is surely a contempturous view of morality:

http://www.amazon.com/God-Delusion-Richard-Dawkins/dp/0618680004/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-8312265-8744620?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189908048&sr=8-1

Also, here is a link to Dawkins' website:

http://richarddawkins.net/

Oh and BTW, While I can tolerate people's religious beliefs as they may have been the victim of childhood indoctrination thus can't look at things with objectivity anyone who believes in creationism, and not evolution, is clearly someone who has been brainwashed and is just unable to look at things that are scientifically real about the world. Basically, Creationists are simply crazy as people, especially Americans, to want to teach that junk to young students in school is cleary reprehensible.

But what annoys me in this "think by yourself" preaching of card-carrying atheists like Dawkins is that it implies religious people are unable to think by themselves, or must have been brainwashed. That's not really fair to a lot of intellectuals who also happen to be religious, and are able to think by themselves.

That religion is a cultural product is a fairly obvious fact. That doesn't mean it's necessary false for that reason though.

I thought Dawkins book was entertaining (see my signature), but it is also an extremely biased book.

Fee
09-16-2007, 07:07 AM
Federer enjoyed a meeting with the Pope -- don't know if he requested for one (I'm pretty sure the Pope didn't request that meeting :lol: )
I have not heard of his being particularly religious, but who knows.

Did the Pope kiss Federer's ring?

Forehander
09-16-2007, 07:33 AM
Some players are scientologist as well (though it's debatable as to whether it is a religion or just a cult).

darnyelb
09-16-2007, 08:33 AM
Well that's your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it, but I think a lot of people don't share it, particularly probably 90% of the world's Jews, who are very passionate and proud, but don't observe the actual traditions. And questioning one's beliefs is a huge part of the process, so I'd venture to say that the vast majority of the people in the world who would identify themselves as a particular religion who have questions or doubts and might not "truly" believe it would all be what, agnostic or atheist by your standards? But it's a personal thing, so whatever each person feels is what's important; if I feel Jewish even though I eat on Yom Kippur and write on Saturdays, that's my right. And that's why it's so saddening to see the disgusting insults and blanket statements in this thread :( And anyway, this thread doesn't have to turn into a discussion on religion. I don't see why people can't just discuss players' religion without actually saying things that might be offensive to people. I really just don't get it :shrug:

I actually don't think we disagree. My definition of 'practice' isn't what people do tradition and ritual-wise - it's more what they believe and how they act in accordance with the fundamental beliefs of their faith/religion.

Going to church and going through the motions and saying you're Christian isn't the same thing as being a Christian, that is, if you don't actually internalize the belief systems. As for questioning your beliefs, if you're doubting something that's so basic, how is anyone still, say, a Christian if they suddenly start believing that Jesus never existed? If people, though, questioned/neglected other aspects of their religion that weren't so essential (customs/traditions, attitudes about sex, not resting on the Sabbath, wearing jewelry) that's not a big deal to me.

As long as someone believes and holds to the morals of their stated religion (and tries to correct themselves when they err), I can take them seriously.

Annnnnnd to make this tennis related... I hope Novak had quite a religious experience Sunday night! :)

Action Jackson
09-16-2007, 08:36 AM
Some players are scientologist as well (though it's debatable as to whether it is a religion or just a cult).

Arnaud Boetsch is a Scientologist and there was an issue with that when he played in Germany.

Jaffas85
09-16-2007, 09:34 AM
Arnaud Boetsch is a Scientologist and there was an issue with that when he played in Germany.

Unless you're being politically correct Scientology is a cult (As it isn't a mainstream religion, and is really only considered a 'religion' for tax purposes).

Scientologists don't believe in psychiatry because they believe signs of psychotic disorder or mental illness are signs that the spirit is "distressed" or disturbed yet they of course base that on no evidence or proof whatsoever let alone scientific methods.

They also believe in an evil alien called 'Xenu' who apparently sent the spirits of many aliens to Earth millions of years ago.....

...Did I also mention that L.Ron Hubbard was a science fiction writer who flunked out of college before he turned his hand to Scientology as a means of making more money (which he made in droves).

So people who consider themselves Scientologists as opposed to everyday religions are even worse than religious people because Scientology doesn't have the thousands of years in history behind it and revered cultural ideals that the big three mainstream ones have; Islam, Christianity and Judiasm which people tend to follow as a 'cultural duty' or 'loyalty' to their culture.

Action Jackson
09-16-2007, 09:44 AM
I just mentioned that he is or was a Scientologist, but I don't care about it. I am not some religious crusader like the OP. I have my own code that I live by and that works for me.

Religion causes too many problems, when there are enough already.

lleytonfan!
09-16-2007, 09:58 AM
I just mentioned that he is or was a Scientologist, but I don't care about it. I am not some religious crusader like the OP. I have my own code that I live by and that works for me.

Religion causes too many problems, when there are enough already.

I just caught up with this thread, and have skipped to the last page. I will read the rest later.

EXCUSE ME! Religious crusader?! All I said was that I was a practicing Christian. How does that make me a religious crusader?

Truc
09-16-2007, 10:14 AM
Arnaud Boetsch is a Scientologist and there was an issue with that when he played in Germany.There was an article about it last year in the French magazine "Paris Match" and he said he isn't anymore (Arnaud Boetsch, l'ex-prodige du tennis français, a perdu plusieurs contrats dans les années 90 après ses révélations sur son affiliation à la scientologie. Il a rompu depuis. Aujourd'hui, il confie :«C'était une époque où je voulais être mieux dans mon tennis et dans ma vie. Qui ne souhaite pas s'améliorer ? Le tennis est un sport stressant, je cherchais des" solutions" comme d'autres vont chez le psy ou font du yoga.»)

neeob
09-16-2007, 11:12 AM
EXCUSE ME! Religious crusader?! All I said was that I was a practicing Christian. How does that make me a religious crusader?

To the contrary, Atheists and Agnostics are ignorant idiots. They go to hell as well.

no comment

Action Jackson
09-16-2007, 11:16 AM
There was an article about it last year in the French magazine "Paris Match" and he said he isn't anymore (Arnaud Boetsch, l'ex-prodige du tennis français, a perdu plusieurs contrats dans les années 90 après ses révélations sur son affiliation à la scientologie. Il a rompu depuis. Aujourd'hui, il confie :«C'était une époque où je voulais être mieux dans mon tennis et dans ma vie. Qui ne souhaite pas s'améliorer ? Le tennis est un sport stressant, je cherchais des" solutions" comme d'autres vont chez le psy ou font du yoga.»)

Thanks for that clarification Truc and good to see Boetsch has got away from that.

Jaffas85
09-16-2007, 11:21 AM
no comment

Theres also that point that Hell doesn't exist. Neither does Heaven.

The notion of Heaven and Hell is a very self righteous concept which would have fit society well up until the 19th century but now that we know about things like psychiatric problems and also psychologically and physically abusive upbringings which all affect the resulting behaviour of people in society it's clear that there are more realistic factors at work behind some of what is wrong in society other than just the 'ye olde' method of "Good Vs. Evil" (Although the whole Good Vs. Evil mantra is more fun when watching a T.V. show or quickly separating the 'good' people from the 'bad' people thereby making the 'good' feel so much more superior about themselves).

Forehander
09-16-2007, 01:07 PM
people do realise that the moral behind every single religion, buddhism, christian, Islamic, Muslim etc etc is the same yeh? The gods in which we worship just want us to live in peace. People who don't agree are simply taking it to the extreme and are the originators of Holy Wars. Even as a boy I understand.

Jim Jones
09-16-2007, 01:37 PM
Unless you're being politically correct Scientology is a cult (As it isn't a mainstream religion, and is really only considered a 'religion' for tax purposes).

Scientologists don't believe in psychiatry because they believe signs of psychotic disorder or mental illness are signs that the spirit is "distressed" or disturbed yet they of course base that on no evidence or proof whatsoever let alone scientific methods.

They also believe in an evil alien called 'Xenu' who apparently sent the spirits of many aliens to Earth millions of years ago.....

...Did I also mention that L.Ron Hubbard was a science fiction writer who flunked out of college before he turned his hand to Scientology as a means of making more money (which he made in droves).

So people who consider themselves Scientologists as opposed to everyday religions are even worse than religious people because Scientology doesn't have the thousands of years in history behind it and revered cultural ideals that the big three mainstream ones have; Islam, Christianity and Judiasm which people tend to follow as a 'cultural duty' or 'loyalty' to their culture.
Why is judaism considered one of the 3 big religions? Hindus and Buddhists outnumber them? Do not forget them my friend.

R.Federer
09-16-2007, 04:47 PM
Did the Pope kiss Federer's ring?
Does Federer wear a ring? Does it match his man bag?! :D

The_Nadal_effect
09-16-2007, 04:53 PM
I'm more interested to know who's been doing the voo-doo on Safin than his religion. :spit:

Must be some pagan. ;)

R.Federer
09-16-2007, 04:55 PM
Unless you're being politically correct Scientology is a cult (As it isn't a mainstream religion, and is really only considered a 'religion' for tax purposes).
Who is to decide whether it is a cult or a religion. There are people who follow it for the same reasons that you follow whatever you follow. As for money purposes, in Switzerland all Churchgoing members have to pay a fee (or if you prefer a "fine") every year. All religions need money to operate. In the US they have used their gigantic funds to free the Catholic pedophile priests, and there have been many of them.


Scientologists don't believe in psychiatry because they believe signs of psychotic disorder or mental illness are signs that the spirit is "distressed" or disturbed yet they of course base that on no evidence or proof whatsoever let alone scientific methods.


I am no follower of Scientology but to single it out is silly. There are religions which prohibit eating a particular kind of meat on particular days. There are religions which prohibit premarital sex. There are religions which encourage bulks of wives. There are religions which require a woman to kill herself when she is widowed. All sound like pretty convenient rules that suited the religion at the time these ideas were created and many of these sound downright stupid now. No religion is better than another. NONE

G4.
09-16-2007, 04:57 PM
Who is to decide whether it is a cult or a religion. There are people who follow it for the same reasons that you follow whatever you follow. As for money purposes, in Switzerland all Churchgoing members have to pay a fee (or if you prefer a "fine") every year. All religions need money to operate. In the US they have used their gigantic funds to free the Catholic pedophile priests, and there have been many of them.



I am no follower of Scientology but to single it out is silly. There are religions which prohibit eating a particular kind of meat on particular days. There are religions which prohibit premarital sex. There are religions which encourage bulks of wives. There are religions which require a woman to kill herself when she is widowed. All sound like pretty convenient rules that suited the religion at the time these ideas were created and many of these sound downright stupid now. No religion is better than another. NONE

how i love political correctness

R.Federer
09-16-2007, 05:01 PM
Opposite. In some European countries it is politically correct to deem Scientology a cult.

G4.
09-16-2007, 05:07 PM
am i allowed atleast to qualify the order of the solar temple (yes it still exists) as a cult.

R.Federer
09-16-2007, 05:11 PM
am i allowed atleast to qualify the order of the solar temple (yes it still exists) as a cult.
That's the whole point. You'll call it a cult, followers of it won't. I might call some of the other mainstream religions a cult for the same reasons you would call something else a cult.

G4.
09-16-2007, 05:16 PM
that's right , who is to judge what's good or bad :angel:

R.Federer
09-16-2007, 05:18 PM
Precisely. So, back to my original line: Who is to decide whether it is a cult or a religion.
No religion is better or worse than another.

G4.
09-16-2007, 05:22 PM
i'm happy that there are still some people left in this world, who have the courage to take a postion, and ban those cults

Jimnik
09-16-2007, 05:40 PM
Unfortunately this thread again proves why religion and GM just don't mix. The thread title hasn't been discussed in any of the posts.

I hope a mod moves this to NT, or preferably the scrapheap, where it belongs.

Neumann
09-16-2007, 06:35 PM
I don't see the difference between Nadal and a monkey. Or Federer for that matter. I actually am barely able to see how they (we) are different from stones :confused:

Castafiore
09-16-2007, 07:09 PM
Opposite. In some European countries it is politically correct to deem Scientology a cult.
Indeed. It's a classified as a cult in Belgium and Scientology is even facing criminal charges for fraud and extortion in a couple of individual cases.

Scientology faces criminal charges (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gDbHIiu78StkRGSY4VEMRVqtlfXA)


To return the favor probably, Germany, Belgium and France were labelled as "evil" countries by scientology that need to be "conquered" and a spokesperson for the US State department has made the following statement: We would, however, oppose any effort to stigmatise an entire group based solely upon religious beliefs and would be concerned over infringement of any individual's rights because of religious affiliation

This is Belgium's official list of cults (from 1997)
http://users.skynet.be/religie_info_site/Sekten%20en%20Stromingen/Sektelijst.html

star
09-16-2007, 07:13 PM
Who is to decide whether it is a cult or a religion. There are people who follow it for the same reasons that you follow whatever you follow. As for money purposes, in Switzerland all Churchgoing members have to pay a fee (or if you prefer a "fine") every year. All religions need money to operate. In the US they have used their gigantic funds to free the Catholic pedophile priests, and there have been many of them.



I am no follower of Scientology but to single it out is silly. There are religions which prohibit eating a particular kind of meat on particular days. There are religions which prohibit premarital sex. There are religions which encourage bulks of wives. There are religions which require a woman to kill herself when she is widowed. All sound like pretty convenient rules that suited the religion at the time these ideas were created and many of these sound downright stupid now. No religion is better than another. NONE

While I agree with the essence of your post that all religions have beliefs that to an outsider appear peculiar if not ridiculous, and therefore, one can't place one above another, I don't agree that one should not exercise judgment concerning religions. To take an extreme example, there have been/are religions requiring human sacrifice. My personal ethos requites that I reject that religious practice, and I desire to live in a society that also rejects it. From there we have gradations. I also desire to live in a society that rejects the religious practice of genital mutilation, underage girls ordered by a religious leader to marry chosen males, etc.

star
09-16-2007, 07:15 PM
Indeed. It's a classified as a cult in Belgium and Scientology is even facing criminal charges for fraud and extortion in a couple of individual cases.

Scientology faces criminal charges (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gDbHIiu78StkRGSY4VEMRVqtlfXA)


To return the favor probably, Germany, Belgium and France were labelled as "evil" countries by scientology that need to be "conquered" and a spokesperson for the US State department has made the following statement: We would, however, oppose any effort to stigmatise an entire group based solely upon religious beliefs and would be concerned over infringement of any individual's rights because of religious affiliation

This is Belgium's official list of cults (from 1997)
http://users.skynet.be/religie_info_site/Sekten%20en%20Stromingen/Sektelijst.html

Did the State Department also issue a statement espousing a disinclination to conquer the "evil" three?

:)

G4.
09-16-2007, 07:20 PM
even though i'm strongly against religions , there is an OBVIOUS difference between these religions and cults that extort money and use mental manipulation ,to try to seperate people from their families or people outside the cult. it is sad that some people cannot see the difference

Castafiore
09-16-2007, 07:30 PM
No religion is better or worse than another.
I strongly disagree with this. I'm guessing that you haven't seen what a dangerous cult can do to a person. Sadly, I've seen the effects up close.
A "religious group" like Moon is very dangerous for example.


Did the State Department also issue a statement espousing a disinclination to conquer the "evil" three?
Oddly enough, no.;)

R.Federer
09-16-2007, 07:38 PM
While I agree with the essence of your post that all religions have beliefs that to an outsider appear peculiar if not ridiculous, and therefore, one can't place one above another, I don't agree that one should not exercise judgment concerning religions. To take an extreme example, there have been/are religions requiring human sacrifice. My personal ethos requites that I reject that religious practice, and I desire to live in a society that also rejects it. From there we have gradations. I also desire to live in a society that rejects the religious practice of genital mutilation, underage girls ordered by a religious leader to marry chosen males, etc.

On the contrary, I think one SHOULD exercise judgement. Which is what I did in my post. I judged no religion to be above another religion. This is my judgement on religions.

R.Federer
09-16-2007, 07:42 PM
I strongly disagree with this. I'm guessing that you haven't seen what a dangerous cult can do to a person. Sadly, I've seen the effects up close.
A "religious group" like Moon is very dangerous for example.

I strongly disagree with your reasoning.
How do you know it's what a cult/religion did to a person as opposed to something the person would have done regardless of what their religion was? Maybe the reason the person is a follower of that cult is because it aligns their beliefs with an organization's beliefs.
All kinds of people commit all kinds of deranged crimes. These people do not come exclusively from one religion or another. To attribute their actions to the religion they belong to is unfounded.

G4.
09-16-2007, 07:46 PM
I strongly disagree with your reasoning.
How do you know it's what a cult/religion did to a person as opposed to something the person would have done regardless of what their religion was? Maybe the reason the person is a follower of that cult is because it aligns their beliefs with an organization's beliefs.
All kinds of people commit all kinds of deranged crimes. These people do not come exclusively from one religion or another. To attribute their actions to the religion they belong to is unfounded.

when the founder of the order of the solar temple orders the massacre of people including children . Or when Jim Jones asks people to commit mass suicide and make kill those who refuse to
Do you see a difference ?

Jim Jones
09-16-2007, 07:52 PM
when the founder of the order of the solar temple orders the massacre of people including children . Or when Jim Jones asks people to commit mass suicide and make kill those who refuse to
Do you see a difference ?
I could not resist saying this, my alias was named after this cult leader. Am I a fan? Of course not but yes I found it fascinated the power of persuasion he had in his hands.

R.Federer
09-16-2007, 08:01 PM
when the founder of the order of the solar temple orders the massacre of people including children . Or when Jim Jones asks people to commit mass suicide and make kill those who refuse to
Do you see a difference ?

When the death of the Swedish Prophet-cartoons' creater is asked for in the name of Islam, does that make the person calling for his death, the person who will try to kill him, or the ENTIRE religion of Islam and its followers culpable? Do you see the difference?

Does this make Islam a dangerous cult in your reasoning?

G4.
09-16-2007, 08:07 PM
you are mixing up things and just want to appear as a tolerant and comprehensive person . whatever , yes there is a difference when the founder himself orders to commit those acts, and when the main goal of the cult is to make money

R.Federer
09-16-2007, 08:07 PM
^Thanks.
You didn't have an answer to the question, so deflect away. You appear to just lump and loathe all cults together, that's great.

G4.
09-16-2007, 08:09 PM
no i'm just not following your distorted logic

R.Federer
09-16-2007, 08:12 PM
Ha! You joined my cult. Follow away, weakling

G4.
09-16-2007, 08:20 PM
Ha! You joined my cult. Follow away, weakling

so far , you most articulate argument :hatoff:

Castafiore
09-16-2007, 08:25 PM
Does this make Islam a dangerous cult in your reasoning?
Not the entire Islam (because I do believe that it's a peaceful religion at the core of it) but parts of Islam is highly dangerous, yes.
Just like certain Christian groups (cults) are highly dangerous.

You can not lump together every religion and every cult as being very dangerous but there's simply no denying that some of them are and political correctness is all good and well but sometimes, it's good to inform people about the possible dangerous nature of certain groups.



How do you know it's what a cult/religion did to a person as opposed to something the person would have done regardless of what their religion was? Maybe the reason the person is a follower of that cult is because it aligns their beliefs with an organization's beliefs.
Well, let me give you an example.

My sister was in a very dangerous religious cult (Children of God). I've seen the techniques they use to attract new members (they're your very best friend in the beginning) and the techniques they use to prevent the cult members from getting "hostile" information from the outside world. My sister was taught self-hypnosis techniques. She was allowed to go out and she was told that she was a free person but she needed to protect herself from evil. So, she would go in a trance if she heard something she should not hear, something that was labelled by that group as "evil".
I remember my mother in tears, begging her to get out of that group and return home but she would just go into that "zone".
They emptied her bank account, they took control of her body and her mind (and believe me, she had to do things my sister would not have done of her own free will).
When her bank account was empty, they came to my parents to tell them that they needed to send money on a monthly basis and they made it very clear that they would harm my sister if they did not follow their instructions.
My family worked together with the police and a group that helps families of cult members to try and liberate them.

What finally convinced my sister that the cult was harming her instead of helping her achieve a better life and afterlife was the following:
she became seriously ill and she needed medical help. She was refused that medical help because she was told: "illness is a test of god and if your faith is strong enough, you will heal."
And even then, it took her a long time to escape and she was scared of them for years and years afterwards.

That cult has Christian roots. I don't consider christianity as a whole as "dangerous", just like I don't consider islam as a whole as "dangerous".
However, certain groups within christianity and islam are dangerous.

I'm an agnostic, by the way. My family members and friends are a mixture: roman catholics, jehova's witness, protestants (lutheran), muslims, agnostics, atheists,...
I tend to look beyond religion and it does not matter to me at all what sort of religion my favorite tennis players have (just to get this a bit on topic :p but perhaps this thread should be moved to non-tennis).


To attribute their actions to the religion they belong to is unfounded.
It's not necessarily the case. That's true. But there's no denying that certain religious groups can influence their members to do evil things in the name of a higher being.

R.Federer
09-16-2007, 08:46 PM
Yes, that's what I meant by my comment that no religion is better or worse than another. Each of these have some renegade factions within them that preach dangerous things. There are hardliners in each religion that tend to form what you are calling a cult. I don't think any one religion is creating more of these than another and is somehow better than another.

I also meant that some times, may be not in the case of your sister (sorry that you had to go through this on a personal level), people are attracted to these groups exactly because of who they are and how what they believe and want aligns perfectly with a religious group that offers it, or because such a group gives them a social bond they may not have. Those people in such groups don't deem what they are doing dangerous. I'm sure Scientologists and members of the cult you describe think of themselves as doing the right think and scoff at the rest of us for not getting it. I understand why you or I might think of these things as dangerous. But for some people this is the correct way of life, believing in not getting medical help, believing in not taking psychiatric drugs, etc.


Not the entire Islam (because I do believe that it's a peaceful religion at the core of it) but parts of Islam is highly dangerous, yes.
Just like certain Christian groups (cults) are highly dangerous.

You can not lump together every religion and every cult as being very dangerous but there's simply no denying that some of them are and political correctness is all good and well but sometimes, it's good to inform people about the possible dangerous nature of certain groups.




Well, let me give you an example.

My sister was in a very dangerous religious cult (Children of God). I've seen the techniques they use to attract new members (they're your very best friend in the beginning) and the techniques they use to prevent the cult members from getting "hostile" information from the outside world. My sister was taught self-hypnosis techniques. She was allowed to go out and she was told that she was a free person but she needed to protect herself from evil. So, she would go in a trance if she heard something she should not hear, something that was labelled by that group as "evil".
I remember my mother in tears, begging her to get out of that group and return home but she would just go into that "zone".
They emptied her bank account, they took control of her body and her mind (and believe me, she had to do things my sister would not have done of her own free will).
When her bank account was empty, they came to my parents to tell them that they needed to send money on a monthly basis and they made it very clear that they would harm my sister if they did not follow their instructions.
My family worked together with the police and a group that helps families of cult members to try and liberate them.

What finally convinced my sister that the cult was harming her instead of helping her achieve a better life and afterlife was the following:
she became seriously ill and she needed medical help. She was refused that medical help because she was told: "illness is a test of god and if your faith is strong enough, you will heal."
And even then, it took her a long time to escape and she was scared of them for years and years afterwards.

That cult has Christian roots. I don't consider christianity as a whole as "dangerous", just like I don't consider islam as a whole as "dangerous".
However, certain groups within christianity and islam are dangerous.

I'm an agnostic, by the way. My family members and friends are a mixture: roman catholics, jehova's witness, protestants (lutheran), islam, agnostics, atheists,...
I tend to look beyond religion and it does not matter to me at all what sort of religion my favorite tennis players have (just to get this a bit on topic :p but perhaps this thread should be moved to non-tennis).

Aerion
09-16-2007, 08:56 PM
clearly Nadal believes in God....:D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v42/yanra/nadalandgod.jpg

Savo
09-16-2007, 09:06 PM
I don't see the point of this thread. Why can't we all just get along :wavey:

Sunset of Age
09-17-2007, 12:43 AM
I don't see the point of this thread. Why can't we all just get along :wavey:

Yeah, that's the point of it all, I think.
I've been raised as a Catholic, found the insight that 'God' is just a man-made invention all along the way, but at least I found a way to accept people's beliefs, whatever, whenever.

It all comes down to Mutual Respect, I think.
But don't say anything of people being INFERIOR because of their sex, skin colour, sexual interests, or whatever - I'll retreat IMMEDIATELY when I even sense a HINT of that in any a cult, religion, culture or whatsoever.

I guess that's a reason why of all the global religions, the only one I can relate to is Buddhism. :angel:

Farenhajt
09-17-2007, 01:50 AM
I guess that's a reason why of all the global religions, the only one I can relate to is Buddhism. :angel:

I second that :)

MisterQ
09-17-2007, 02:13 AM
Are any players Pastafarians (followers of The Flying Spaghetti Monster)?

Lillith
09-17-2007, 02:32 AM
We may debate it, I'm not saying that we shouldn't.

I am, however, saying that we should rrespect each other's points of views, and not try to devalue them.



Seriously? You write that agnostics and atheists are going to hell and then you berate another poster for "disrespectful" arguments? A tad ironic.

Henry Chinaski
09-17-2007, 02:33 AM
Acasuso is a Rastafarian. This explains why he has never officially failed a drugs test. He has special dispensation to smoke as much weed as he likes for religious purposes.

Lillith
09-17-2007, 02:54 AM
But what annoys me in this "think by yourself" preaching of card-carrying atheists like Dawkins is that it implies religious people are unable to think by themselves, or must have been brainwashed. That's not really fair to a lot of intellectuals who also happen to be religious, and are able to think by themselves.

That religion is a cultural product is a fairly obvious fact. That doesn't mean it's necessary false for that reason though.

I thought Dawkins book was entertaining (see my signature), but it is also an extremely biased book.


While I agree that there can be such a bias in his works, I'd have to say that it very true in my own personal experience. This is obviously only anecdotal, but I've yet to actually meet a self-identified Christian who knows their Bible as well as I do. I've known "Christians" who used the story of Lot to bash homosexuals, without knowing that the supposed great man was seemingly ready to offer his virgin daughters up for group ****, and without knowing that his daughters later seduced him after plying him with wine. And out of that entire story, I'm supposed to be most appalled by the homosexual activities of the "evil" cities?

Any Christian I know who knows the story of Lillith only knows because I've told them. Most don't know or understand how much of their own religion is based on the Pagan faiths of the Germanic, Northern Europeans. Indeed, most don't know how much of that Pagan activity is even banned by their own holy book (ie, the decorating of evergreens and Yule celebrations around the Winter Solstice), and they continue to practice it.

Churches of all kinds have little incentive to teach their flocks about other faiths, or even the history of their own faith. Most schools do not offer a true comparative religion course, and so most people are quite ignorant about religion in general, unless of course that person has undertaken an individual exploration of a number of religions.

Perhaps people in other parts of the world are more knowledgable about religion than Americans, but I'd be surprised. Religions all over the world have been used for millenia to keep the rabble in line, and the more ignorant the populace the easier that task.

Lillith
09-17-2007, 03:00 AM
Are any players Pastafarians (followers of The Flying Spaghetti Monster)?


I doubt there are any on the pro circuit, since that jerk of a god requires the continued consumption of alfredo sauces. Try as they might, they just can't play professionally once their weight hits 250. The FSM is a killer of talents. :(

Winston's Human
09-17-2007, 03:09 AM
In Lleytonfan's defense, this thread turned ugly when his original innocuous post asking about the religious affiliation of some of the players was answered with a post suggesting that anyone who is religious is either uneducated or crazy.

R.Federer
09-17-2007, 03:33 AM
This thread is not as bad as it could have been given the nature of the topic. Apart from personal insults, most disagreements have been discussed in a balanced sense.

I also think that like so many other things about a player which are not directly tennis related, including his love life, his upbringing, his clothes, etc., it is interesting to talk about their religion. It is not that ANY of it is our business, but it is odd to not talk about just one thing like the elephant in the room. So long as there are no stereotypes (Player X's religion is Y therefore he is Z) or insult, it is one more thing to learn about a player.

Forehander
09-17-2007, 07:09 AM
Not the entire Islam (because I do believe that it's a peaceful religion at the core of it) but parts of Islam is highly dangerous, yes.
Just like certain Christian groups (cults) are highly dangerous.

You can not lump together every religion and every cult as being very dangerous but there's simply no denying that some of them are and political correctness is all good and well but sometimes, it's good to inform people about the possible dangerous nature of certain groups.




Well, let me give you an example.

My sister was in a very dangerous religious cult (Children of God). I've seen the techniques they use to attract new members (they're your very best friend in the beginning) and the techniques they use to prevent the cult members from getting "hostile" information from the outside world. My sister was taught self-hypnosis techniques. She was allowed to go out and she was told that she was a free person but she needed to protect herself from evil. So, she would go in a trance if she heard something she should not hear, something that was labelled by that group as "evil".
I remember my mother in tears, begging her to get out of that group and return home but she would just go into that "zone".
They emptied her bank account, they took control of her body and her mind (and believe me, she had to do things my sister would not have done of her own free will).
When her bank account was empty, they came to my parents to tell them that they needed to send money on a monthly basis and they made it very clear that they would harm my sister if they did not follow their instructions.
My family worked together with the police and a group that helps families of cult members to try and liberate them.

What finally convinced my sister that the cult was harming her instead of helping her achieve a better life and afterlife was the following:
she became seriously ill and she needed medical help. She was refused that medical help because she was told: "illness is a test of god and if your faith is strong enough, you will heal."
And even then, it took her a long time to escape and she was scared of them for years and years afterwards.

That cult has Christian roots. I don't consider christianity as a whole as "dangerous", just like I don't consider islam as a whole as "dangerous".
However, certain groups within christianity and islam are dangerous.

I'm an agnostic, by the way. My family members and friends are a mixture: roman catholics, jehova's witness, protestants (lutheran), muslims, agnostics, atheists,...
I tend to look beyond religion and it does not matter to me at all what sort of religion my favorite tennis players have (just to get this a bit on topic :p but perhaps this thread should be moved to non-tennis).



It's not necessarily the case. That's true. But there's no denying that certain religious groups can influence their members to do evil things in the name of a higher being.

wow holy crap... that's terrible. I gotta say, out of all the religions, the most peaceful one out of all is Buddhism (but im not attacking others, because i know all other religions deep moral are the same).

And did I start all these arguments by just starting up scientology and cult? lol

MariaV
09-17-2007, 07:38 AM
I guess that's a reason why of all the global religions, the only one I can relate to is Buddhism. :angel:

Me too. :)

Jaffas85
09-17-2007, 07:49 AM
Buddhism, like Confuscism, lean more towards being life philosphies than actual black and white hardcore religions.

I used to think that If I were to consider any religion at all it would be Buddhism because, as I said, its actually more of a life philosphy than a religion but then I read about the superstitious beliefs and worships that do exist within Buddhism, which like other religions, is just based on cultural traditions and local customs.

I do think that looking at different religions from an objective vantage with the aim of learning about their history and cultural roots is interesting, much in the same way reading about Ancient Roman and Egyptian Gods is interesting, but I just tend to get frustrated when in what is meant to be a modern and educated world people can still tend to believe cultural myths and stories as being factually true which ultimately makes it more difficult for people around the world to relate to one another and to understand that everyone is basically quite similar.

Before the world moved on the fast track towards becoming increasingly globaslised a strict faith and adherence to the culture of your birth was important to foster a cohesive society and agreed upon standards within that community but throughout the 20th century, as Globilisation took effect, strict loyalty to your culture and it's "beliefs" is often quite harmful where many different people, from different backgrounds, are now having to integrate and mould a new society where they still have loyalty to their respective cultures but need to understand that reason and objectivity via education (of each other and of what is 'real') are what is now required for a broader community within the 21st century and beyond.

I'd also just like to say that of all the developed nations in the world the United States is basically the only one still mired in religiosity which I would have to put down to it having such a large population albeit modernity, via education and funding, hasn't yet been able to penetrate much of the religious mid-west.

Forehander
09-17-2007, 10:29 AM
Buddhism, like Confuscism, lean more towards being life philosphies than actual black and white hardcore religions.

I used to think that If I were to consider any religion at all it would be Buddhism because, as I said, its actually more of a life philosphy than a religion but then I read about the superstitious beliefs and worships that do exist within Buddhism, which like other religions, is just based on cultural traditions and local customs.

I do think that looking at different religions from an objective vantage with the aim of learning about their history and cultural roots is interesting, much in the same way reading about Ancient Roman and Egyptian Gods is interesting, but I just tend to get frustrated when in what is meant to be a modern and educated world people can still tend to believe cultural myths and stories as being factually true which ultimately makes it more difficult for people around the world to relate to one another and to understand that everyone is basically quite similar.

Before the world moved on the fast track towards becoming increasingly globaslised a strict faith and adherence to the culture of your birth was important to foster a cohesive society and agreed upon standards within that community but throughout the 20th century, as Globilisation took effect, strict loyalty to your culture and it's "beliefs" is often quite harmful where many different people, from different backgrounds, are now having to integrate and mould a new society where they still have loyalty to their respective cultures but need to understand that reason and objectivity via education (of each other and of what is 'real') are what is now required for a broader community within the 21st century and beyond.

I'd also just like to say that of all the developed nations in the world the United States is basically the only one still mired in religiosity which I would have to put down to it having such a large population albeit modernity, via education and funding, hasn't yet been able to penetrate much of the religious mid-west.


this is a nice post, i agree with you totally. And one thing, Korea is pretty extreme too with this christian thing, whilst the idiotic missionaries held hostage by the Talibans. They were said to be there to aid the poverty, but when those retards are questioned by the media as to whether they were there to talk Jesus, their answer? "Oh... I have a headache now i must go...". lol

tripb19
09-17-2007, 10:41 AM
David Nalbandian worships the flying spaghetti monster.

Castafiore
09-17-2007, 10:55 AM
I've known "Christians" who used the story of Lot to bash homosexuals, without knowing that the supposed great man was seemingly ready to offer his virgin daughters up for group ****, and without knowing that his daughters later seduced him after plying him with wine. And out of that entire story, I'm supposed to be most appalled by the homosexual activities of the "evil" cities?

Any Christian I know who knows the story of Lillith only knows because I've told them. Most don't know or understand how much of their own religion is based on the Pagan faiths of the Germanic, Northern Europeans. Indeed, most don't know how much of that Pagan activity is even banned by their own holy book (ie, the decorating of evergreens and Yule celebrations around the Winter Solstice), and they continue to practice it.
That reminds me of this famous "letter":
http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/drlaura.asp

Aloimeh
09-17-2007, 09:12 PM
While I agree that there can be such a bias in his works, I'd have to say that it very true in my own personal experience. This is obviously only anecdotal, but I've yet to actually meet a self-identified Christian who knows their Bible as well as I do. I've known "Christians" who used the story of Lot to bash homosexuals, without knowing that the supposed great man was seemingly ready to offer his virgin daughters up for group ****, and without knowing that his daughters later seduced him after plying him with wine. And out of that entire story, I'm supposed to be most appalled by the homosexual activities of the "evil" cities?

Any Christian I know who knows the story of Lillith only knows because I've told them. Most don't know or understand how much of their own religion is based on the Pagan faiths of the Germanic, Northern Europeans. Indeed, most don't know how much of that Pagan activity is even banned by their own holy book (ie, the decorating of evergreens and Yule celebrations around the Winter Solstice), and they continue to practice it.

Churches of all kinds have little incentive to teach their flocks about other faiths, or even the history of their own faith. Most schools do not offer a true comparative religion course, and so most people are quite ignorant about religion in general, unless of course that person has undertaken an individual exploration of a number of religions.

Perhaps people in other parts of the world are more knowledgable about religion than Americans, but I'd be surprised. Religions all over the world have been used for millenia to keep the rabble in line, and the more ignorant the populace the easier that task.

Most. That's key. Not all Christians are this way. The story of Lot indicates the spiritual degeneration of a (once) righteous man. So long had he lived in the filth of Sodom that his own morals had become twisted. You don't mention, however, that he offered up his daughters (a terrible act, I agree) because the men of Sodom (it sounds like some boys/children were involved also) were breaking down the door to **** his guests (the angels in human form). I think the fact that Sodom's men not infrequently gang ***** male visitors to the town is a pretty harsh condemnation of the moral degeneration of the day. What Lot's daughters did is a sign that their acceptance of Sodom's morality was even greater than Lot's - they were truly degenerate and no better than the unrighteous men of Sodom.

I know about the pagan contributions to Christianity. I don't celebrate Christmas with a Yule log, Christmas tree, ornaments, gifts, etc. I do celebrate it on December 25th, because sincere fellow Christians do that, but I am sure that is not the correct date and that it is likely in spring (however, we cannot know the correct date). Also, I avoid Easter eggs, Easter bunnies, treasure hunts, Halloween, and other pagan practices. Essentially, I celebrate Christmas, Easter, Good Friday, and Passover/Lord's Supper, and that's it. There really is no biblical basis for a celebration of Christ's birthday, but it is in remembrance of Him, afterall.

Finally, Lilith is a Jewish myth. It isn't part of the Tanakh and not authoritative in either Judaism or Christianity.

Jim Jones
09-17-2007, 09:56 PM
Religion is really a cultural thing. All people want to belong to a group. Lilith for instance does not seem to like religion yet she seems to be into paganism which is....a religion. Buddhism is not the 'nicest' of all religions. In Buddhist nations like Sri Lanka, Burma and Cambodia, the governments are pretty opressive. Buddhism is just like any other religion with its strengths and flaws.

NicolasKiefer44
09-23-2007, 04:14 PM
Everyone pursue their own religious/spiritual paths, and do not hold judgements upon other's choices of religious/spiritual paths. What did Jesus say - Judge and ye shall be judged?

YIKES - if that is not warning enough in any avenue of life, even if you don't believe in Jesus. And it is common sense in this world.

star
09-23-2007, 05:06 PM
Everyone pursue their own religious/spiritual paths, and do not hold judgements upon other's choices of religious/spiritual paths. What did Jesus say - Judge and ye shall be judged?

YIKES - if that is not warning enough in any avenue of life, even if you don't believe in Jesus. And it is common sense in this world.

I think the real quote is "Judge not, lest ye also be judged." But you know, they put out new versions of the bible and new translations every year.

star
09-23-2007, 05:10 PM
There really is no biblical basis for a celebration of Christ's birthday, but it is in remembrance of Him, afterall.


Not to mention that it's a hell of a lot of fun! :) :) :)

star
09-23-2007, 05:15 PM
This thread is not as bad as it could have been given the nature of the topic. Apart from personal insults, most disagreements have been discussed in a balanced sense.

I also think that like so many other things about a player which are not directly tennis related, including his love life, his upbringing, his clothes, etc., it is interesting to talk about their religion. It is not that ANY of it is our business, but it is odd to not talk about just one thing like the elephant in the room. So long as there are no stereotypes (Player X's religion is Y therefore he is Z) or insult, it is one more thing to learn about a player.

So basically what we are saying here is that there are no atheists in tiebreaks?

;)