It's not called choking when you are being outplayed... [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

It's not called choking when you are being outplayed...

Kuhne
09-10-2007, 03:44 AM
Djokovic played great and Federer didn't, that's obvious, Djokovic had his chances, that is obvious and the guy deserves respect. all that is obvious, he is the true number #3 and he and Rafa are the future of the sport.

Still. as many chances as he had in this match to break and to win both the first and second set, i didn't see one of those chances in which federer was out of the point and Djokovic had an easy winner and just dunked it.

Federer saved those points by great serving, great playing. He won those points, Djoko didn't lose them

So it's all good and fair

Action Jackson
09-10-2007, 03:46 AM
You have almost grasped the concept of choking. There has been some progress today.

Rafa = Fed Killa
09-10-2007, 03:47 AM
6-5, 40-0

figure it out clown

hra87
09-10-2007, 03:52 AM
6-5, 40-0

figure it out clown

I actually agree. I've been pretty vocal during my brief time here about the rediculousness of people's assertions that a player choked just because he missed a break/set/match point. But Djokovic, to me, clearly did choke. In the first set especially, Federer didn't even raise his game. In that game, they replayed his miss set points. 4 seemed to be from Djokovic's unforced error (maybe forced, I didn't pay that much attention, but I think unforced). Then on break point in the same set he double faulted. Then in the next set he double faulted on, I think, another set point (or something important).

Djokovic's game dropped during the important moment's. Federer's also rose, but I still think it's safe to say it was a choke.

Edit: it also seemed his first serve percentage dropped during those important moments, but it might have just been a gradual drop in first serve percentage after the beginning of the first set (at which time I believe it was quite high, but not sure).

Edit2: I also think that Federer would have still won even if Djokovic won the first set, he probably would have raised his game. He was awful that match.

CyBorg
09-10-2007, 04:00 AM
Ok, relax now. It's not like Djokovic is Ivan Lendl, having lost his first, what was it, four grand slam finals.

MatchFederer
09-10-2007, 04:09 AM
I actually agree. I've been pretty vocal during my brief time here about the rediculousness of people's assertions that a player choked just because he missed a break/set/match point. But Djokovic, to me, clearly did choke. In the first set especially, Federer didn't even raise his game. In that game, they replayed his miss set points. 4 seemed to be from Djokovic's unforced error (maybe forced, I didn't pay that much attention, but I think unforced). Then on break point in the same set he double faulted. Then in the next set he double faulted on, I think, another set point (or something important).

Djokovic's game dropped during the important moment's. Federer's also rose, but I still think it's safe to say it was a choke.

Edit: it also seemed his first serve percentage dropped during those important moments, but it might have just been a gradual drop in first serve percentage after the beginning of the first set (at which time I believe it was quite high, but not sure).

Edit2: I also think that Federer would have still won even if Djokovic won the first set, he probably would have raised his game. He was awful that match.

What a load of rubbish. Djokovic plays a style of baseline game that brings out a lot of errors from the opponent. Federer still managed to hit more winners than errors. Federer played fairly well, he looked a little tired but he played fairly well. Djokovic played a good match except for in the important moments.

Federer was NOT awful, he was decent... and especially good in clutch moments.

hra87
09-10-2007, 04:14 AM
What a load of rubbish. Djokovic plays a style of baseline game that brings out a lot of errors from the opponent. Federer still managed to hit more winners than errors. Federer played fairly well, he looked a little tired but he played fairly well. Djokovic played a good match except for in the important moments.

Federer was NOT awful, he was decent... and especially good in clutch moments.

I was exageratting. B- game. He seemed like he was entering "god mode" towards the end of the second set, then it went away.

MatchFederer
09-10-2007, 04:20 AM
I'd say his pure game was B-... but that his strategy and brain game was A-. He could see that Djokovic was going to tire and he ensured that he played in a manner that he could keep up for longer than just 3 sets, which probably explained some of his lethargy, along with the apparent tummy bug he had suffered previously. His game was A rank at the most important moments though and that was crucial! Djoko's game went down the hill on some of those set points.

EDIT: So all things considered I would give Federer a B+ (just).

case
09-10-2007, 04:23 AM
I was kind of disappointed .not the most exciting tennis from either

hra87
09-10-2007, 04:28 AM
I'd say his pure game was B-... but that his strategy and brain game was A-. He could see that Djokovic was going to tire and he ensured that he played in a manner that he could keep up for longer than just 3 sets, which probably explained some of his lethargy, along with the apparent tummy bug he had suffered previously. His game was A rank at the most important moments though and that was crucial! Djoko's game went down the hill on some of those set points.

EDIT: So all things considered I would give Federer a B+ (just).

Yeah, I'll agree with that, maybe a tad lower, but yeah. The awful was mostly in comparison to his usual grand slam final self. He peaked during the Lopez match, knew Roddick's game well enough to win in straights without playing excellent, then won in straights against Davydenko and Djokovic mostly on nerve. Not that he would have lost, but his average "pure game" as you say in both matches did not warrant a straight sets victory.

MatchFederer
09-10-2007, 04:34 AM
Nope, you are right, Federer's average "pure game" didn't warrant him straight set victories. His EXCELLENT clutch game did though. It was pretty windy out there though from what I could tell, against Denko and Djoko. It is hard to look mightily impressive in those conditions, especially whhen your technique relies so heavily on timing.

5;30 am!! I am gonna get some sleeeeeeep. Night night.

FedFan_2007
09-10-2007, 05:07 AM
So it's ok when Steffi Graf benefits 10+ slams from chokes, but Fed isn't allowed 1 measly slam from that?

Kuhne
09-10-2007, 07:16 AM
I consider myself pretty honest and not really biased, in the australian open final, when Gonzalez had set point, he missed a forehand that if it had gone in, federer wouldn't have goten to it. right there and then i admited, even if I wanted federer to win, he got lucky as hell to win that final in straight sets and even then if he had lost that set who knows what could have happened next? gonzo wouldnt have gone down in his level and federer wouldn't have entered his unbeatable mode. That I can admit easily.

However in this match, every single set point djokovic had federer saved, fair and square, either he played a good rally and eventualy drew the error or when he was serving he served beautifully when it mattered and got out of the hole. The only really shot you could admit was unecesary to miss from djokovic was that forehand that he just missed on the center of the court and he challenged it and it was out by less than an inch and even if it had been in, federer got to it so the point would have been replayed.

Just like wimbledon, when federer was in many holes, he got out of those holes because he elevated his game when it mattered, not because the other players made stupid mistakes. Djokovic couldn't close it out, thats for certain but it is because Federer didn't let him, its not like djokovic gave him those points, if anything djoko maintined a high level of play, even higher than federer most of the match but federer played the points that mattered and the tie breaks better than djokovic and thats why he won in straight sets.

So this "choke" bullshit is just an excuse for a bunch of pissed off fans, I can't remember the last time federer beat one of your guys and you guys gave due credit. why is it so easy for me to say Nadal owned Federer in the last two sets of the french open or Nadal outplayed Federer in Montecarlo but you guys can't seem to give one inch of credit. if he beats nadal in wimbledon its cos Nadal choked, if he beats djokovic in the us open its chos djokovic choked, if he beats Nadal on Hamburg it's cos Nadal was tired, if Nadal loses to Ferrer, he was injured.

grow the fuck up

leng jai
09-10-2007, 07:24 AM
Which match were you watching? Federer saved one out of 5 set points in the first set. The rest were unforced errors by djokavic.

Kuhne
09-10-2007, 07:32 AM
yes they were errors but not the kind of errors in which federer was already beaten, out of the point and djoko chokes the hell out of that ball towards the net.

they were both in the rally, and when normaly federer would make the unforced error, he didn't, eventualy djokovic did. he raised his level.

if its possible for djokovic to go 3 points in a row without losing (from 0-0 to 0-40) why wouldnt it be possible for federer to get his shit together and do the same to get it to deuce?

leng jai
09-10-2007, 07:44 AM
yes they were errors but not the kind of errors in which federer was already beaten, out of the point and djoko chokes the hell out of that ball towards the net.

they were both in the rally, and when normaly federer would make the unforced error, he didn't, eventualy djokovic did. he raised his level.

if its possible for djokovic to go 3 points in a row without losing (from 0-0 to 0-40) why wouldnt it be possible for federer to get his shit together and do the same to get it to deuce?

Oh yeah, keeping the ball in play, thats really Federer raising his level. Djokovic was cruising on serve up until then and suddenly its 40-0 and he makes about 6 errors and double faults. If thats not choking I don't know what is.

garad
09-10-2007, 07:49 AM
6-5, 40-0

figure it out clown

Are you talking about Djokovic in New York or Federer in Montreal? Clown.

bokehlicious
09-10-2007, 07:57 AM
Had Roger lost the first set he would still have won the whole thing in 4 (or 5 at worst)... :)

Apemant
09-10-2007, 07:58 AM
Oh yeah, keeping the ball in play, thats really Federer raising his level. Djokovic was cruising on serve up until then and suddenly its 40-0 and he makes about 6 errors and double faults. If thats not choking I don't know what is.

Two words: Montreal final.

Turquoise
09-10-2007, 08:03 AM
Montreal/US Open first set: ironic reversal of roles. So now they're even.

Kuhne
09-10-2007, 08:06 AM
Oh yeah, keeping the ball in play, thats really Federer raising his level. Djokovic was cruising on serve up until then and suddenly its 40-0 and he makes about 6 errors and double faults. If thats not choking I don't know what is.

It is exactly raising his level when before that he was doning points like stupid making unforced errors. that was his problem, every time he went for a winner he made an error, even with simple shots he was making errors. when he was 0-40 he made 0 errors. and serve only first serves. returned great. etc...

he played the point until djokovic crumbled. that's smart playing from Roger.

blosson
09-10-2007, 08:11 AM
Letting 7 set point chances go = choke

Those were important points.

Kuhne
09-10-2007, 08:15 AM
Letting 7 set point chances go = choke

Those were important points.

One could say federer choked throughout the whole match except when those set points ocured.

same diference.

Forehander
09-10-2007, 08:57 AM
Federer indeed did outplay him for moronic losers who don't think so

justine&coria
09-10-2007, 09:33 AM
Oh yeah, keeping the ball in play, thats really Federer raising his level. Djokovic was cruising on serve up until then and suddenly its 40-0 and he makes about 6 errors and double faults. If thats not choking I don't know what is.
Exactly : 6 easy mistakes.
I don't understand why some can't admit that Djokovic choked really bad. Did they even watch the match ? :confused:

justine&coria
09-10-2007, 09:35 AM
One could say federer choked throughout the whole match except when those set points ocured.

same diference.
Then you don't know what "choke" means.
Roger played bad : I think we can all agree he was far from his best.
But, Djokovic played good until those sets points, which he totally choked away.

thesupreme
09-10-2007, 09:43 AM
Djoko so obviously choked its not even worth debating...but its his first GS final so i cant begrudge him nervousness....

Bilbo
09-10-2007, 09:51 AM
6-5, 40-0

figure it out clown

same happened in montreal and no one was complaining

djokovic was getting some of his own medicine in the final. now they are even.

Apemant
09-10-2007, 12:09 PM
As in most of these situations this isn't an either-or discussion. Yes, Nole got tight at important moments but Roger also played some clutch tennis as well as some smart points. Or am I the only one who noticed that Roger saw how tight Novak was and took the pace off his shots during a few of Nole's set points in order to draw the errors?

:worship:
People are too much into the binary logic: yes/no, false/true, choking/not. Life isn't binary. Everyone gets a little tighter in crucial moments; sometimes they manage to deliver so it's not noticed from the outside. But sometimes they falter and everyone can see it.

So, everyone 'chokes' at some point or the next. The question is not IF, its HOW OFTEN, and HOW BADLY. There are some awful chokers around, like Calleri, or like PHM used to be (or Ancic till 2 years ago). But Nole definitely isn't a choker type of a guy.

Strangelove
09-10-2007, 12:29 PM
I agree. Against almost every other player to lose the set from 6-5, 40-0 constitutes a choke. But it's Federer we're talking about here. I don't think Djokovic choked a whole lot of big points away :shrug:

scarecrows
09-10-2007, 01:28 PM
1st set was clear choking

Djokovic usually finds the first serves in important points and he didnt in that 12th game
2nd set Federer served pretty well, no choke there

jasmin
09-10-2007, 01:56 PM
Fed just raised his level and hit shots that Nole would get an error. IMO Nole didn't choke. Fed just seriously raised his level in the tiebreaks.