Should the US learn tolerance from its European brothers? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Should the US learn tolerance from its European brothers?

buddyholly
09-01-2007, 02:10 PM
Given the storm of controversy surrounding the citizens of the USA just for wanting to protect their borders from illegal aliens, perhaps the US should think more like their ''oh so civilised'' brothers across the pond when it comes to dealing with immigrants, even legal ones.

YAHOO reports that the largest political party in Switzerland is campaigning with a poster that shows 3 white sheep kicking a black sheep out of Switzerland. The party wants a law whereby when an immigrant is to be deported for any crime, his entire family will be deported too.

Action Jackson
09-01-2007, 02:14 PM
The link doesn't work and you are trying to prove what exactly.

buddyholly
09-01-2007, 02:18 PM
I can not make the link work. I am not trying to prove anything. I am just throwing some light on the fact that if the Republican Party ran a poster of 3 white American sheep kicking a black sheep out of the US, MTF would light up with anti-US comments. But Switzerland? they are so civilised there, aren't they?

Action Jackson
09-01-2007, 02:23 PM
That is old news and are the Swiss Peoples Party the largest party in Switzerland? I doubt it.

Blocher is a just populist with too much money and is always on about foreigners and a very large percentage of the population is foreign. Considering the process of obtaining Swiss citizenship isn't straightforward and problematic, but they have their reasons for it ( no this does not mean I agree with them fully).

Would you please use the country and not the whole continent or I'd have to start calling you Tennis Fool, deliberately misleading thread titles.

Action Jackson
09-01-2007, 02:26 PM
First of all it won't get approved.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gOtp4Efcqk4AmOuof_iTc0DSWTlQ

Swiss Deportation Policy Draws Criticism

By FRANK JORDANS – 1 hour ago

GENEVA (AP) — The campaign poster was blatant in its xenophobic symbolism: Three white sheep kicking out a black sheep over a caption that read "for more security." The message was not from a fringe force in Switzerland's political scene but from its largest party.

The nationalist Swiss People's Party is proposing a deportation policy that anti-racism campaigners say evokes Nazi-era practices. Under the plan, entire families would be expelled if their children are convicted of a violent crime, drug offenses or benefits fraud.

The party is trying to collect the 100,000 signatures needed to force a referendum on the issue. If approved in a referendum, the law would be the only one of its kind in Europe.

"We believe that parents are responsible for bringing up their children. If they can't do it properly, they will have to bear the consequences," Ueli Maurer, president of the People's Party, told The Associated Press.

Ronnie Bernheim of the Swiss Foundation against Racism and Anti-Semitism said the proposal was similar to the Nazi practice of "Sippenhaft" — or kin liability — whereby relatives of criminals were held responsible for his or her crimes and punished equally.

Similar practices occurred during Stalin's purges in the early days of the Soviet Union and the 1966-76 Cultural Revolution in China, when millions were persecuted for their alleged ideological failings.

"As soon as the first 10 families and their children have been expelled from the country, then things will get better at a stroke," said Maurer, whose party controls the Justice Ministry and shares power in an unwieldy coalition that includes all major parties.

He explained that his party has long campaigned to make deportation compulsory for convicted immigrants rather than an optional and rarely applied punishment.

The party claims foreigners — who make up about 20 percent of the population — are four times more likely to commit crimes than Swiss nationals.

Bernheim said the vast majority of Switzerland's immigrants are law-abiding and warned against generalizations.

"If you don't treat a complicated issue with the necessary nuance and care, then you won't do it justice," he said.

Commentators have expressed horror over the symbolism used by the People's Party to make its point.

"This way of thinking shows an obvious blood-and-soil mentality," read one editorial in the Zurich daily Tages-Anzeiger, calling for a broader public reaction against the campaign.

So far, however, there has been little popular backlash against the posters.

"We haven't had any complaints," said Maurer.

The city of Geneva — home to Switzerland's humanitarian traditions as well as the European headquarters of the United Nations and the U.N. Refugee Agency, or UNHCR — said the campaign was likely to stir up intolerance.

The UNHCR said the law would run contrary to the U.N. refugee convention, of which Switzerland is a signatory.

But observers say the People's Party's hardline stance on immigration could help it in the Oct. 21 national elections. In 2004, the party successfully campaigned for tighter immigration laws using the image of black hands reaching into a pot filled with Swiss passports.

"It's certainly no coincidence that the People's Party launched this initiative before the elections," said Oliver Geden, a political scientist at the Berlin Institute for International and Security Affairs.

He said provocative campaigns such as this had worked well for the party in the past.

"The symbol of the black sheep was clearly intended to have a double meaning. On the one hand there's the familiar idea of the black sheep, but a lot of voters are also going to associate it with the notion of dark-skinned drug dealers," said Geden.

The party also has put forward a proposal to ban the building of minaret towers alongside mosques. And one of its leading figures, Justice Minister Christoph Blocher, said he wants to soften anti-racism laws because they prevent freedom of speech.

buddyholly
09-01-2007, 02:30 PM
The article said it WAS the largest party in Switzerland.

Nevertheless, I wonder how long I will have to wait for a post stating the the Swiss are just a bunch of red-necked a**holes and no wonder the rest of the world can't stand them.

Besides, play doesn't start for another two and a half hours and I have to do something for amusement. ESPN in Latin America shows live tennis every day from the first serve until the lights are turned out. Maybe I should have started a thread praising ESPN for being the best cable channel ever!

buddyholly
09-01-2007, 02:32 PM
Thanks Andreas, for finding the article. I am useless at computer manipulation. I would change the thread title, if I knew how.

Jim Jones
09-01-2007, 02:33 PM
Yes the Swiss Peoples Party is one of the biggest parties of Switzerland along with the Socialist party. The center parties are next. I see nothing wrong with the naturalizarion process. I had to go through it and have no complaints about it.

As for what buddholly is trying to say, there is one vital difference between U.S and European immigrants. Example, Latin Americans have the same religion as most Americans whereas many of the immigrants that Swiss peoples party focus on are Albanians most whom are muslim. So reaction to Albanian immigrants is actually stronger than reaction to Mexican immigrants becasue culture clash is greater.

Action Jackson
09-01-2007, 02:34 PM
It depends on which part of Switzerland, well the yokel German-speaking farming part is where SPP gets most of its support. The presidency rotates on an annual thing and they have to get the majority of cantons to vote Yes, before this would be approved.

Why else do you think it's so hard to get Swiss citizenship? They needed the guest workers, but when the work dries up, they want them to get lost, forgetting the other side of this problem.

buddyholly
09-01-2007, 02:36 PM
As for what buddholly is trying to say, there is one vital difference between U.S and European immigrants. Example, Latin Americans have the same religion as most Americans whereas many of the immigrants that Swiss peoples party focus on are Albanians most whom are muslim. So reaction to Albanian immigrants is actually stronger than reaction to Mexican immigrants becasue culture clash is greater.

What on earth is that supposed to mean? If that is Swiss thinking, then it just proves my point. Europeans are intolerant. So it appears you think the poster would have been better if instead of a black sheep, it should have shown a white sheep clutching a Koran.

Action Jackson
09-01-2007, 02:43 PM
What on earth is that supposed to mean? If that is Swiss thinking, then it just proves my point. Europeans are intolerant. So it appears you think the poster would have been better if instead of a black sheep, it should have shown a white sheep clutching a Koran.

I have changed the reply post to reflect this accurately.

Like I said it depends on where you are in Switzerland, cities and towns are obviously different from rural. Then there is the even divide between Proddies and Catholics in the country.

I actually doubt if Jim Jones speaks French or German, but that is just me though. Like anywhere there are large groups of idiots living within a nation state.

Some immigrants seem to adjust better than others, then again there are more than enough reasons for this and it comes from both sides.

Andre♥
09-01-2007, 02:49 PM
Switzerland has always annoyed me.

I hate neutral people. :p

Now after this brilliant comment by myself (lol), well that swiss proposal sucks of course.

In terms of tolerance, europe owns the united states. Can you imagine a union with the same rules as the European Union in the American continent? With Mexicans being able to enter the United States any time they wanted to?

Julio1974
09-01-2007, 02:56 PM
Switzerland has always annoyed me.

I hate neutral people. :p

Now after this brilliant comment by myself (lol), well that swiss proposal sucks of course.

In terms of tolerance, europe owns the united states. Can you imagine a union with the same rules as the European Union in the American continent? With Mexicans being able to enter the United States any time they wanted to?

Your conclusion is based on 20th century history and the lack of violence against minorities in European history?

or on the lack of succesful extreme right political parties in Europe?

or on how easy is to get the nationality in European countries compared with the extreme difficult process in the US where you only have to be born there?

Edit:
If you want to draw a more fair parallel, let me know when Turkey is a member of the UE.

Action Jackson
09-01-2007, 03:02 PM
Edit:
If you want to draw a more fair parallel, let me know when Turkey is a member of the UE.

That won't happen for a while and why should it happen, apart from a reason to expand the EU market.

Julio1974
09-01-2007, 03:27 PM
That won't happen for a while and why should it happen, apart from a reason to expand the EU market.

To be honest, I don't know enough to argue in favor or against the entry of Turkey in the UE.

My point was that you cannot say the UE is more tolerant than the US because the US would never let mexicans walk free in the US. Mexico is a very big country, with a very big population, and with a signficant percentage of poor people. It would be suicidal to let mexicans walk free in the US. And I think similar concerns will prevent for a while the entry of Turkey in the UE.

Action Jackson
09-01-2007, 03:35 PM
To be honest, I don't know enough to argue in favor or against the entry of Turkey in the UE.

My point was that you cannot say the UE is more tolerant than the US because the US would never let mexicans walk free in the US. Mexico is a very big country, with a very big population, and with a signficant percentage of poor people. It would be suicidal to let mexicans walk free in the US. And I think similar concerns will prevent for a while the entry of Turkey in the UE.

Looking at the geopolitical position of Turkey, it straddles 2 continents and has a different religious outlook and a worse human rights record than the worst of the EU nations, not the same situation with the US/Mexico, both nations are Christian.

You do know Turkey used to rule a lot of European nations, some things aren't forgotten so easily, why do you think there is a large native Muslim population in Bosnia and Albania for example.

Julio1974
09-01-2007, 03:48 PM
Looking at the geopolitical position of Turkey, it straddles 2 continents and has a different religious outlook and a worse human rights record than the worst of the EU nations, not the same situation with the US/Mexico, both nations are Christian.

You do know Turkey used to rule a lot of European nations, some things aren't forgotten so easily, why do you think there is a large native Muslim population in Bosnia and Albania for example.


The religion is another point that makes Turkey's entry even more difficult. ALthough it must be recognized that Turkey is not the typical muslim country.

Concerning the human right issues, I think Mexico does not do much better than Turkey. At least, Turkey accepts the jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights.

Action Jackson
09-01-2007, 03:51 PM
The religion is another point that makes Turkey's entry even more difficult. ALthough it must be recognized that Turkey is not the typical muslim country.

Concerning the human right issues, I think Mexico does not do much better than Turkey. At least, Turkey accepts the jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights.

Turkey is liberal compared to other Islamic nations, but even then that is still not enough and they would have to bend over quite a lot to get accepted.

The EU is different to NAFTA in a lot of ways, just they are economic blocs is similar.

Adler
09-01-2007, 03:54 PM
First, Europe is not so tolerant. It looks like, but it isn't. Few years ago europoliticians forced Rocco Butiglione to resign from candidating for EU commisaire of foreign affairs because of his anti-homosexual attitude. He said that he's a catholic and therefore he finds homosexualism sinful. Although this statement had nothing to do with foreign affairs and he stated that his opinions about homosexualism will not affect his work as the commissaire, he's been forced to resign. I don't have anything against gays and lesbians and I support the project of homosexual partnerships (better known as "homosexual marriages", although it's not the same), I can understand that other people may not share my views, and in my opinion polititcians reacted in a wrong way

Turkey is liberal compared to other Islamic nations, but even then that is still not enough and they would have to bend over quite a lot to get accepted
because they still have some (form european point of view) ridiculous laws. But I must admit, they remove them consistently

Julio1974
09-01-2007, 03:54 PM
Turkey is liberal compared to other Islamic nations, but even then that is still not enough and they would have to bend over quite a lot to get accepted.

The EU is different to NAFTA in a lot of ways, just they are economic blocs is similar.

Absolutely.

G4.
09-01-2007, 04:53 PM
it is ironic (because it's undoubtedly going to happen) that a country that refuses to recognize Cyprus (a member of the E.U) and denies the Armenian genocide will join the European Union. But why not , everybody is free to enter in a supermarket

Adler
09-01-2007, 05:38 PM
Don't know why, but they're always afraid of Cyprus becoming part of Greece. 1) it's unlikely to happen now and 2) why do they think it's bad for Turkey? It's not 1920, it's 21st century

Sparko1030
09-01-2007, 05:56 PM
I think that the people of all countries tend to be protectionist and fear that those who are percieved differnt from them will "take over" their country and culture-I think that it is basic to human nature. When any group is seen as a threat to the status quo there will be fear and politicians more than willing to use that fear to their own ends. The US is no differnt from other countries in that way.

Weren't the riots in France last year due partly at least to a guest worker program that basically denied foreign workers any chance at citizenship? That type of policy is becoming more prevelant it seems and what is the explaination other than "protecting" the host country while taking advantage of cheap labor. I think its all too easy-and fashionable- to point fingers at the US, (whose policies I don't always agree with) and feel morally superior while many percieved "libral" countries are not really any better at dealing with/accepting aliens.

When it comes to promoting tolerance, the place to start is probably your own "backyard" where ever that is.

Richard_from_Cal
09-01-2007, 06:00 PM
From the front page section of today's Arizona Daily Star:
Tucson Region
Judge asked to hold off sanctions on employers
By Howard Fischer
.full
..article at
...vvv--hyperlink--vvv

He said any company that does not hire undocumented workers won't get into legal trouble. That's because the legislation requires companies to check the legal status of new employees through the same federal database that will be used to determine if a firm is violating the law.

While there is no penalty for companies that don't check new workers, the law does provide an incentive to comply: Any firm that uses that system gets a "rebuttable defense" — essentially a presumption of innocence — if it ever is charged with breaking the new state law.
http://www.azstarnet.com/business/199255

Basically there is a new law, penalizing those employers who knowingly hire illegals...

...I remember a Microsoft list, found of the 50 states, putting the most small-business-friendly at the top. Arizona was there... but this new law seems short-sighted. (And that from a laborer.--)

I'll put the list up, if I can find it.

buddyholly
09-01-2007, 06:15 PM
In terms of tolerance, europe owns the united states. Can you imagine a union with the same rules as the European Union in the American continent? With Mexicans being able to enter the United States any time they wanted to?

The UNITED States of America

The European Econonic UNION

Get it? Mexico is not a member of the United States of America, just as Turkey is not a member of the European Economic Union. By bringing in the concept of ''continent'' you are losing the thread, as it were. You didn't suggest the Chinese should be able to move freely in and out of Japan, in order for Asia to be considered as equally tolerant as Europe.

Adler
09-01-2007, 07:17 PM
EU is more than just economic union from the European Act (1986) and Maastricht treaty (1992)

Scotso
09-01-2007, 07:24 PM
When it comes to promoting tolerance, the place to start is probably your own "backyard" where ever that is.

Exactly, and I think that's all buddyholly was trying to say. But Europeans on these boards and pretty much everywhere constantly state what a racist, backward country the United States is. But truth be told, there are probably harsher policies against immigrants in Europe, and they haven't shown themselves to be inclusive when it comes to race. The majority of Europe is still very much a white Christian club. For them to criticize the US for the same things that happen in their own countries is just stupid and ignorant.

hra87
09-01-2007, 08:04 PM
Haha, are you guys justifying European xenophobia on the grounds that it is ok since the immigrants are muslims rather than mexicans? Jesus.

Europe as a whole is extremely xenophobic, especially against muslims. That is not at all different than the US being xenophobic against mexicans. The difference, perhaps, is that the US CAUSED the immigration of mexicans because of NAFTA, which has basically killed off all the mexican farmers and left them with no choice but to try to find work in the US.

There seems to be a tendency in Europe to put all the sins of the West on the shoulders of the united states, alleviating themselves of any wrongdoing.

Jim Jones
09-01-2007, 08:34 PM
I have changed the reply post to reflect this accurately.

Like I said it depends on where you are in Switzerland, cities and towns are obviously different from rural. Then there is the even divide between Proddies and Catholics in the country.

I actually doubt if Jim Jones speaks French or German, but that is just me though. Like anywhere there are large groups of idiots living within a nation state.

Some immigrants seem to adjust better than others, then again there are more than enough reasons for this and it comes from both sides.

Jim Jones n'est pas mon vrai nom et oui je parle bien le français car je suis de Genève. I speak a little German too but not too much.

And if you want to see an idiot you should look in a mirror. :lol:

Jim Jones
09-01-2007, 10:45 PM
Haha, are you guys justifying European xenophobia on the grounds that it is ok since the immigrants are muslims rather than mexicans? Jesus.

Europe as a whole is extremely xenophobic, especially against muslims. That is not at all different than the US being xenophobic against mexicans. The difference, perhaps, is that the US CAUSED the immigration of mexicans because of NAFTA, which has basically killed off all the mexican farmers and left them with no choice but to try to find work in the US.

There seems to be a tendency in Europe to put all the sins of the West on the shoulders of the united states, alleviating themselves of any wrongdoing.

NAFTA existed only since 1994 and mass mexican emigration to U.S. existed way before that. Furthermore, NAFTA actually helped the Mexican economy as well as the U.S. Your flawed socialist ideals remain nothing but idealistic.

If less and less Mexicans become farmers then this is agood thing for the environment. Less virgin land is used for cultivation and more people work in industries like in developed nations.

So to you the baddies are the Europeans and Muslims are poor victims? You tend to view the world in black and white. Religion is an important cultural factor.

Scotso
09-01-2007, 11:03 PM
Jim, thanks for the retarded bad rep attacking me for being a Muslim. But there's one thing, I'm not.

Even so, you're a bigot. You're the worst kind of bigot, because you hate everyone but white Christian people when you aren't even white. Grow up.

G4.
09-01-2007, 11:05 PM
I think that the people of all countries tend to be protectionist and fear that those who are percieved differnt from them will "take over" their country and culture-I think that it is basic to human nature. When any group is seen as a threat to the status quo there will be fear and politicians more than willing to use that fear to their own ends. The US is no differnt from other countries in that way.

Weren't the riots in France last year due partly at least to a guest worker program that basically denied foreign workers any chance at citizenship? That type of policy is becoming more prevelant it seems and what is the explaination other than "protecting" the host country while taking advantage of cheap labor. I think its all too easy-and fashionable- to point fingers at the US, (whose policies I don't always agree with) and feel morally superior while many percieved "libral" countries are not really any better at dealing with/accepting aliens.

When it comes to promoting tolerance, the place to start is probably your own "backyard" where ever that is.

No ,living in a french suburb,i can tell you the problem in france is far more complex . In short, it happened when 2 kids died while they were being chased by the police , although the kids did nothing wrong. The police knew they were hiding in substation but they did nothing to try and get them out of it. The riots started in the town where the kids lived and they quickly spread to all the french suburbs (and not to Paris like i read in many Us newspapers). Then participating in riots became a mean for the youth of the subburbs to express their anger (and sadly by burning cars owned by ppl who lives there) toward the french goverment (and our beloved friend Nicolas Sarkozy) who has never done anything for the suburbs.

Sparko1030
09-01-2007, 11:20 PM
No ,living in a french suburb,i can tell you the problem in france is far more complex . In short, it happened when 2 kids died while they were being chased by the police , although the kids did nothing wrong. The police knew they were hiding in substation but they did nothing to try and get them out of it. The riots started in the town where the kids lived and they quickly spread to all the french suburbs (and not to Paris like i read in many Us newspapers). Then participating in riots became a mean for the youth of the subburbs to express their anger (and sadly by burning cars owned by ppl who lives there) toward the french goverment (and our beloved friend Nicolas Sarkozy) who has never done anything for the suburbs.

Thank you for the insight. As someone who lives where it happened you surely know what you are talking about. At the time the news reports here sighted the guest worker program as contributing to the anger that erupted in the violence. I realize such things are complex there are probably several contributing factors but I would maintain that the guest worker program might have played a part and as the US contemplates implimenting a guest worker program here, I hope the we would learn from our European brothers. Learn that its a better program in theory than in reality.

Richard_from_Cal
09-01-2007, 11:34 PM
Top Ten Worst States to Run a Business:

50) Iowa
49) Maine
48.) New Mexico
47) New York
46) Montana
45) North Dakota
44) Nebraska
43) Vermont
42) tie: W. Virginia
Rhode Island
Hawaii

Tax – free States: (income tax)

• Alaska
• Florida
• Nevada
• New Hampshire
• South Dakota
• Tennessee
• Texas
• Washington
• Wyoming

Top Ten (Best States to Run a Business??)

1) Nevada
2) Florida
3) Texas
4) Alabama
5) tie: Virginia
..................................... & Arizona <<-------(used-to-be)
7) Tennessee
8.) Colorado
9) South Carolina
10) Georgia
close behind: New Hampshire, Delaware, Maryland, Utah

Source: www.itssimple.biz , “surfed:” Sept. 17, 2003

buddyholly
09-01-2007, 11:54 PM
Relevance Richard?

buddyholly
09-01-2007, 11:56 PM
Exactly, and I think that's all buddyholly was trying to say.

It's against MTF rules, but take another good rep from me.

G4.
09-02-2007, 12:06 AM
Thank you for the insight. As someone who lives where it happened you surely know what you are talking about. At the time the news reports here sighted the guest worker program as contributing to the anger that erupted in the violence. I realize such things are complex there are probably several contributing factors but I would maintain that the guest worker program might have played a part and as the US contemplates implimenting a guest worker program here, I hope the we would learn from our European brothers. Learn that its a better program in theory than in reality.

guest worker program ? i have never heard of that . But mainly the problem is that the unemployement rate is very high in the suburbs. Also people from "ethnic minorities" who were born in France and are sometimes French for 1-2 generations are still not considered as normal frenchmens. The lack of diversity in the medias (even though it's starting to change) or in the french parliament (only 1 black person), our dear president saying that he is going to clean up the suburbs with a Kärsher. Nothing is black or white but that pretty much sums it up.

Richard_from_Cal
09-02-2007, 12:23 AM
Relevance Richard?
To post #24, this thread, page two. (I said I'd post it, and I did.)

The state (Arizona) is making policy, to suit the reactionaries...(poaching on National preserve, but no matter)...and it's spiking it's own economy. Or so it seems.

On the Artsy-fartsy side: anybody see Bread and Chocolate?

buddyholly
09-02-2007, 12:54 AM
To post #24, this thread, page two. (I said I'd post it, and I did.)

The state (Arizona) is making policy, to suit the reactionaries...(poaching on National preserve, but no matter)...and it's spiking it's own economy. Or so it seems.

On the Artsy-fartsy side: anybody see Bread and Chocolate?

OK. Too much tennis on TV to read back.

Strawberry and Chocolate, yes. They turned the apartment used in that movie into a restaurant, where I used to eat regularly in Havana.

Sparko1030
09-02-2007, 01:16 AM
guest worker program ? i have never heard of that . But mainly the problem is that the unemployement rate is very high in the suburbs. Also people from "ethnic minorities" who were born in France and are sometimes French for 1-2 generations are still not considered as normal frenchmens. The lack of diversity in the medias (even though it's starting to change) or in the french parliament (only 1 black person), our dear president saying that he is going to clean up the suburbs with a Kärsher. Nothing is black or white but that pretty much sums it up.

Where aliens are allowed to come into another country and work but have no chance of ever becoming a citizen of that country. I have read several times that France (among others)has a program similar to that.

From what you say, I believe the US has done a much better job of accepting and intergrating minorites into our society. Minorities are regularly elected to office (although still not at the ratios equivalient to thier numbers in our population) and blacks and latinos have an increasing share of representation in the media.

Jim Jones
09-02-2007, 01:38 AM
Jim, thanks for the retarded bad rep attacking me for being a Muslim. But there's one thing, I'm not.

Even so, you're a bigot. You're the worst kind of bigot, because you hate everyone but white Christian people when you aren't even white. Grow up.

Why are you so obsessed with the word white? I support Christians period. Not white Christians, indigo Christians etc.. Come to think about it I also support Buddhists too. Don't know why. And no again here I do not support white Buddhist just to make things clear (you never know with you).

I do not know why you give a color to a religion. Perhaps you watch too many movies like lord of the rings where elves are like the christians and their enemy the dark skinned creatures are the muslims. This is not my thinking but I can see you subscribing to this demented stuff. So Muslims are not just dark skinned and Christians are not just light skinned. Comprendo????

Please stop thinking about white all the time. Think about other colors too such as black, blue, red or even pink. Erase white from your vocabulary for now.

Sparko1030
09-02-2007, 02:35 AM
Exactly, and I think that's all buddyholly was trying to say. But Europeans on these boards and pretty much everywhere constantly state what a racist, backward country the United States is. But truth be told, there are probably harsher policies against immigrants in Europe, and they haven't shown themselves to be inclusive when it comes to race. The majority of Europe is still very much a white Christian club. For them to criticize the US for the same things that happen in their own countries is just stupid and ignorant.

Then I agree with buddyholly :lol:

I certainly have nothing against Eurpeans but I do get weary of the US always being the worst or the most evil. Although far from perfect, overall the US does well in accepting new immigrants. And I would hazard to guess that the US has more legal safe gaurds protecting minorities than many others in the western world.

G4.
09-02-2007, 02:54 AM
Where aliens are allowed to come into another country and work but have no chance of ever becoming a citizen of that country. I have read several times that France (among others)has a program similar to that.

From what you say, I believe the US has done a much better job of accepting and intergrating minorites into our society. Minorities are regularly elected to office (although still not at the ratios equivalient to thier numbers in our population) and blacks and latinos have an increasing share of representation in the media.

think it's a misunderstanding. You might be talking about what happened in the 50's 60s' and 70's when France was in need of workers to reconstruct the country. The governemant has brung workers from the former north african colonies, and those people ended up being packed in big building in the french suburbs. If you are talking about that , yes it's a part of the problem.
But as of today there is no guest worker program that i am aware of
I don't think the US has done a much better job, correct me if i am wrong but aren't there some racial tensions between communities ? also the big poverty of the black community ,
i think both systems have their goods and bads but nobody has found the right formula yet

Scotso
09-02-2007, 03:14 AM
Top Ten (Best States to Run a Business??)

1) Nevada
2) Florida
3) Texas
4) Alabama
5) tie: Virginia
..................................... & Arizona <<-------(used-to-be)
7) Tennessee
8.) Colorado
9) South Carolina
10) Georgia
close behind: New Hampshire, Delaware, Maryland, Utah

Source: www.itssimple.biz , “surfed:” Sept. 17, 2003

Virginia is #1 now.

buddyholly
09-02-2007, 03:30 AM
Although far from perfect, overall the US does well in accepting new immigrants.

Don't be so modest. I think the US is #1 by far in accepting immigrants.

mtw
09-02-2007, 07:50 AM
Firstly USA should leave in peace Irak and in the next turn Afghanistan and stop to commit there crimes and genocide. It is actually basic task of USA. It means in slung: fu.k off.

Action Jackson
09-02-2007, 09:52 AM
Don't know why, but they're always afraid of Cyprus becoming part of Greece. 1) it's unlikely to happen now and 2) why do they think it's bad for Turkey? It's not 1920, it's 21st century

While there was the coup in Greece that wanted Cyprus to be unified with Greece, hence the invasion by Turkey of the northern part of the island which no one apart from Turkey recognises.

Funny thing is I know some Turkish Cypriots and their families, didn't like the peasants they took from mainland Turkey to populate their section of the island after 74.

Action Jackson
09-02-2007, 09:56 AM
Jim Jones n'est pas mon vrai nom et oui je parle bien le français car je suis de Genève. I speak a little German too but not too much.

And if you want to see an idiot you should look in a mirror. :lol:

So you hang out at Arthurs then? Nah, it's always good to be sceptical.

Here is the simple trap that Americans for the most part always fall into and categorise Europe as a single country. Conveniently forgetting that each of these nation states have their own ways of dealing with this issue.

Jim Jones
09-02-2007, 01:00 PM
I now and then hang out at Pickwick's pub. English pubs rule.

Man, my friend Scotso makes me laugh. I replied to his post on this thread where he says that many Europeans want Europe to remain white and Christian. I replied to his post a little tongue in cheek sayig that I prefer Europe to remain Christian than white and Muslim. He then implies that a non-white person like me should feel ashamed for wanting Europe to be white Christian.

I like how he twists my words. I did link religion to race but I only did that with Islam because our friend did so too with Europe's main religion. I also find it interesting that he feels bothered that I want Europe to retain its Christian heritage yet he probably won't say a word to those who want Tibet to remain Buddhist (and yellow?). He could well think that Tibet is being flooded by Han Chinese and Buddhist heritage of Tibetans is under threat. He probably will bitch and moan if I told him that Lhasa has a very significant Han Chinese population and that the city has a muslim quuarter (and mosques) where according to one reporter for TIME magazine, in here they make the best food.

So thanks for the chuckle Scotso. It is good to have a laugh or two now and then even if it is at the expense of a friend such as yourself. Keep up the good work pal.

Scotso
09-02-2007, 05:22 PM
I shouldn't even bother replying. You have made numerous comments about how you don't mind ethnic profiling and such, you hate Muslims, gays, etc. So yes, I think you're a bigot. It's not a stretch.

I never said anything about wanting Europe not to "retain its Christian heritage." I don't really give a flying @#%^ about that either way. But I think I should note that Europe was not always Christian, so if you really want Europe to stay the way it was for the majority of its history, you all need to go back to worshipping rocks.

The only comments I made are that people should accept others regardless of ethnicity or religion. Being accepting of others doesn't hurt your precious "heritage."

Jim Jones
09-02-2007, 07:35 PM
I was wondering how you knew me so well and then I saw your what your name was. I am glad I left wtaforums, I was going crazy there. Anyway, let us leave it at that. Try and have a sense of humor. One reason I come here is to relax.

Scotso
09-03-2007, 04:07 AM
No one talks about politics all day every day to relax. You come here to start fights and push your conservative agenda, so cut the bullshit.

Jim Jones
09-03-2007, 07:17 PM
No one talks about politics all day every day to relax. You come here to start fights and push your conservative agenda, so cut the bullshit.

Well guess you do not know me after all. Most of my posts here are about tennis.

Fret not, I have no desire to engage in conversation with you. The minute I saw your profile and learnt who I was dealing with gave me no motivation to continue writing to you or reading your posts. This will be by last post to you. I will put you on my ignore list. Like that I will not mistakenly write to you when you change your profile. :)

Lillith
09-05-2007, 03:22 AM
Looking at the geopolitical position of Turkey, it straddles 2 continents and has a different religious outlook and a worse human rights record than the worst of the EU nations, not the same situation with the US/Mexico, both nations are Christian.

You do know Turkey used to rule a lot of European nations, some things aren't forgotten so easily, why do you think there is a large native Muslim population in Bosnia and Albania for example.


For once, we are discussing an issue which has nothing to do with religion in the US. Despite what our "official" stats say, unemployment and underemployment are quite high in the US, making the immigration issue here one which splits the parties in 2. I am as left wing as any European Socialist, and yet I oppose both the amnesty program proposed by Bush and increasing levels of immigration. US wages are already depressed and falling behind inflation, and we only just raised our minimum wage for the first time in about 10 years.

Yet the Bush misAdministation wants to increase immigration and guest worker visa quotas. Makes no sense, unless you are in the pocket of Corporate America. No easier way to bust the labor unions, drive wages even further down, and demoralize the workforce than by creating an oversupply of labor to flood the market.

Lillith
09-05-2007, 03:31 AM
Haha, are you guys justifying European xenophobia on the grounds that it is ok since the immigrants are muslims rather than mexicans? Jesus.

Europe as a whole is extremely xenophobic, especially against muslims. That is not at all different than the US being xenophobic against mexicans. The difference, perhaps, is that the US CAUSED the immigration of mexicans because of NAFTA, which has basically killed off all the mexican farmers and left them with no choice but to try to find work in the US.

There seems to be a tendency in Europe to put all the sins of the West on the shoulders of the united states, alleviating themselves of any wrongdoing.


NAFTA hurt the Mexicans, but it wasn't the first strike against the poor and middle class of that country. The Mexican government has been rather corrupt for some time, and the Mexican proletariat have suffered as a result. Same as it ever was, I guess.

I would love to see NAFTA, CAFTA, GATT and WTO policies scrapped a a much more worker friendly treaty put in place. But given the current political situation, I won't hold my breath.

Lillith
09-05-2007, 03:34 AM
Jim, thanks for the retarded bad rep attacking me for being a Muslim. But there's one thing, I'm not.

Even so, you're a bigot. You're the worst kind of bigot, because you hate everyone but white Christian people when you aren't even white. Grow up.


LOL, he bad repped a Ron Paul supporter? I mean it's one thing for him to send those messages to a left wing nut like me, but to you Scotso?

Politics does indeed make strange bedfellows.

Scotso
09-05-2007, 03:57 AM
Well, of course he would hate me. He's a neo-con, and I'm the complete opposite. I might be supporting a "Republican," but it's mainly because he's the best choice of the people that have a chance to win.

I'm a true libertarian - fairly economically conservative and extremely socially liberal. The latter part means that Jim and I could never, ever get along.

Sparko1030
09-05-2007, 07:45 AM
For once, we are discussing an issue which has nothing to do with religion in the US. Despite what our "official" stats say, unemployment and underemployment are quite high in the US, making the immigration issue here one which splits the parties in 2. I am as left wing as any European Socialist, and yet I oppose both the amnesty program proposed by Bush and increasing levels of immigration. US wages are already depressed and falling behind inflation, and we only just raised our minimum wage for the first time in about 10 years.

Yet the Bush misAdministation wants to increase immigration and guest worker visa quotas. Makes no sense, unless you are in the pocket of Corporate America. No easier way to bust the labor unions, drive wages even further down, and demoralize the workforce than by creating an oversupply of labor to flood the market.

I am a liberal also but I have to respectfully disagree. It isn't immigrants that are keeping minimum wage low. I would argue its the demise of unions. I grew up in a small town. The best jobs there were at a beef packing plant-it was unionized. In the late 70's the company (Iowa Beef Packers) busted the union and while the plant was still open, it never returned to union wages. At that time there were no real infux of immigrants in that area (there are now). No, unions are dying and with it a liveable wage for the working class. I cannot blame immigrants for that. Also, there are so many jobs that apparantly "self respecting" citizens won't touch. Here is a article from my newspaper relating how dairies in Minnesota and the surrounding states have had to go to Mexican immigrants to find workers. I guess we can't expect young Americans to work in cow crap anymore....:rolleyes:

http://www.startribune.com/535/story/1399475.html

Sparko1030
09-05-2007, 07:53 AM
Well, of course he would hate me. He's a neo-con, and I'm the complete opposite. I might be supporting a "Republican," but it's mainly because he's the best choice of the people that have a chance to win.

I'm a true libertarian - fairly economically conservative and extremely socially liberal. The latter part means that Jim and I could never, ever get along.


Ok, I'm sure he doesn't need my support, but I have to be honest :lol: I am a liberal myself and often disagree with Jim but we seem to be able to do so civilly(sp). :shrug:

mtw
09-05-2007, 11:25 AM
I grew up in a small town.
http://www.startribune.com/535/story/1399475.html

And it explains all.

Scotso
09-06-2007, 06:02 AM
Ok, I'm sure he doesn't need my support, but I have to be honest :lol: I am a liberal myself and often disagree with Jim but we seem to be able to do so civilly(sp). :shrug:

He used to be that way with me, but his latest bad rep was extremely out of line.

Jim Jones
09-06-2007, 12:10 PM
If I offended you in any way than I apologize. I did not insult you in my reps and pms. What I said to you was that extremism would be fought. I said that in my own words.

In addition, I did not realize that Scotsco was you. I do not keep up with all the name changes....I did not put you on ignore list. Everyone has the right to express himself.

undomiele
09-06-2007, 06:14 PM
NAFTA existed only since 1994 and mass mexican emigration to U.S. existed way before that. Furthermore, NAFTA actually helped the Mexican economy as well as the U.S. Your flawed socialist ideals remain nothing but idealistic.

If less and less Mexicans become farmers then this is agood thing for the environment. Less virgin land is used for cultivation and more people work in industries like in developed nations.


You're a disgrace to idiocy Jimmy.

"Free trade has to be looked at very carefully. The administration has insisted that when it comes to free trade, we’re talking about a win-win situation. But enough studies have come in by now that show that demonstrably it’s a win-lose situation. It all depends where you sit at the table. And many people and many sectors have been hurt by free trade. For example, just look at Mexico. There have been tens of thousands of bankruptcy proceedings and the sale-off of land because of the fact that people cannot compete against the United States. That is, corn grown in the United States and sold in Mexico, which really invented corn, is cheaper than Mexican domestic corn. And that is why, of course, you have a lot of people selling off their land and making the march up to the United States, because they cannot earn a living."

Larry Birns. Director of the Council on Hemispheric Affairs in Washington DC. 03/2007
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/09/1443241&mode=thread&tid=25


Here's a report developed by the Centre for Economic Policy and Research (CEPR) that factually demonstrates that NAFTA actually hurt the Mexican Economy.

http://www.cepr.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=152&Itemid=8

These are just two perfectly neutral sources. I have a thousand more to chip away at that cement blockhead of yours. :rolleyes: