The End of Tibet [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

The End of Tibet

Warrior
08-16-2007, 06:39 PM
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/13247913/the_end_of_tibet

I won't post the entire article due to its length. Click the link to read all of it. Before I read this article I was not familiar with the gruesome detail of abuses in Tibet. The ancient culture may be on its way to extiction not only from China's repressions but the turn to violence of tibet's youth.

>> TAKE ACTION NOW! Learn six things you can do to help make the 2008 Beijing Olympics a catalyst for change in Tibet. http://www.racefortibet.org/act/help.php

The small concrete room smells of urine. In the corner, a young woman lies on a metal cot, moaning softly and vomiting up blood. A former Buddhist nun, she is recovering from an operation on her stomach to fix internal injuries caused by beatings from Chinese guards. Her roommate, Lhundrub Zangmo, speaks in a whispery monotone. Zangmo's head is no longer shaven, and her straight black hair falls over her tight sweater emblazoned with the words The Coolest Boy. But even though she has left the clergy, Zangmo remains deeply religious. She has plastered the walls of the tiny room with photos of Buddhist deities and the Dalai Lama, leader of Tibetan Buddhists.

It has been only a few months since Zangmo and her friend fled Tibet on foot over the Himalayas to this squat, block-shaped center for Tibetan refugees in India. The two women had been imprisoned along with a group of other nuns, some for as long as sixteen years. They were first arrested in 1990 for staging a protest in Lhasa, the capital of Tibet, to demonstrate their outrage over China's continuing presence in their native land. As the women chanted "Free Tibet," Chinese police moved quickly, knocking them to the ground and dragging them to jail before their protest could attract attention. Inside the prison, Chinese authorities subjected the nuns to a brutal routine. "Police stuck electric prods into my vagina and then hung me from the ceiling," Zangmo says softly. Her voice doesn't waver, but she looks away. Some of her friends lost consciousness as soon as guards pushed the cattle prods inside them, but Zangmo remained alert throughout the torture. "I was totally, totally frightened," she says.

Police eventually transferred the women to Drapchi, the most feared prison in Lhasa. According to human rights organizations, there are hundreds of political prisoners in Tibet, the majority of them Buddhist clergy. Scores have died from torture at the hands of Chinese authorities: electric shock, hanging, forced blood extraction. "They tried to pull my arms out of my sockets, and beat my legs and arms with metal bars and shocked me," recalls Phuntsog Nyidron, another nun who was imprisoned at Drapchi. "I was worried they could easily kill me." After repeated beatings, a monk named Lobsang Choephel hanged himself at Drapchi, his body dangling from the iron bars of his cell.

The punishment was most severe for those who refused to give up their faith. "In Drapchi, there were numerous demonstrations," Zangmo says. One day, four nuns refused to renounce their Buddhist beliefs in front of the Chinese guards. "They were beaten until they died." Zangmo stares at the floor and starts to cry, her voice breaking. "They died together."

Before places like drapchi existed, Lhasa was the capital of a remote kingdom where a long line of Dalai Lamas presided over a civilization infused with spirituality, perpetuated in more than 6,000 monasteries and protected by the snow-capped Himalayas. In their sacred land, Tibetans built a distinct and mystical culture, a matchless experiment in faith that permeated their lives. "Tibetans are unique on the planet in that their national life is wholly dedicated to Buddhism," says Robert Thurman, the most famous Tibet scholar in America. By developing a worship of living things, he says, Tibetans also preserved the Earth's highest ecosystem, one that comprises biodiversity on the scale of the Amazon and serves as the source of rivers that sustain nearly half the world's population. "This is some of the most important environment in the world," Thurman says, "so fragile that, once it's gone, it can never come back."

Rumour
08-18-2007, 06:40 AM
Thanks for the link - I have seen some media coverage that describes the plight facing Tibet but never in such painstaking detail. What the Chinese government is doing is essentially genocide; harsh, yes, but accurate in the fullest sense of the word i.e. not 'just' the mass killing of a people but a systematic destruction of their culture, religion and way of life. Unfortunately, as China's global might continues to increase, so do the the chances of it succeeding in wiping out Tibet :sad:

Richard_from_Cal
08-19-2007, 12:47 AM
Thanks for the links. Recently I've read an article contrasting Buddhism and Christianity. Two pages, I'll provide the link below. ...and I'll read your Rolling Stone article.
http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=24762

Jim Jones
08-19-2007, 12:59 AM
though the abuses is horrible does not mean that China should give Tibet away on a platter. Tibet was only independant for a few years and did a terrible job administrating the coutnry. It was a theocratic state ruled by the clergy who were inept at ruling. Tibet has prospered under China. I don't see why Tibet and other autonomus regions of China like Sikiang should be given independance. Why not then Chechnya, Kashmir, etc...

As for Buddhism and Christianity yes, they both have humanity message. Many Buddhists from Asia are attracted to Christianity and many Christians from the West are attracted to Buddhism.

Haute
08-19-2007, 02:46 AM
Whether the theocracy was inept at ruling or not, it doesn't justify the ousting of the Tibetan government outright, the importation of Han Chinese into Tibetan population centers as a blatant attempt at cultural obliteration

Our professor who went with us to China in May went back on her own a week later, and she travelled to Lhasa this time around. She said that Lhasa has commercialized so much that the Tibetan culture is basically nonexistant. It's still strong in the rural areas, but there's no big city with the Tibetans as the biggest ethnic group.

or the mismanagement of vital natural resources and ecologically sensitive sites which flourished under traditional Tibetan practices that left a small footprint on the environment.

Tibet had been pristine, but now it's in the same environmental crisis as the rest of China since the Qinghai-Tibet was finished. I was disgusted in Beijing to see that the water was black, and I hate to think of Tibet being like that now as well. :sad:

Unfortunately for Tibet once the current Dalai Lama passes away its chance of independence or even autonomy will grow frighteningly slim, especially since powerful nations are less and less willing to criticize China's practices as China continues to gain economic leverage.

Have I told you that I love you? lol I did my big research paper this winter on this exact issue; Amnesty and HWR are calling BS on every human rights violation that the CCP make, and the rest of the world does nothing because of China's economic power. I don't know if you remember when President Hu came to the US last year and a Falun Gong practitioner showed up to protest; not only did Bush apologize to Hu, but Wanyi Wang was charged with "knowingly and willfully intimidating, coercing, threatening or harassing ... a foreign official performing his duties." And then on top of it Bush bent over for Hu 100% by saying he doesn't support a free Taiwan. WTF?!!? Does Taiwanese independence not matter because it's not a major oil exporter?

Jimnik
08-19-2007, 03:13 AM
Indeed, looks like China will get away with that invasion. Unfortunately with the Cold War and many other issues over the last 50 years, the international community never had time for Tibet. And even if they did, geographically it's at a disadvantage because it's land locked right in the heart of Asia and no major western country was ever going to come to its rescue.

Jim Jones
08-19-2007, 01:42 PM
Tibet may have only been independent for a "few" years but it had effective autonomy/self-rule for much, much longer. Theocracy or not, the people resisted the Chinese invasion in the 1950s, and it wasn't just the Tibetan religious ruling class that fled for refuge, many regular folk left as well.

Whether the theocracy was inept at ruling or not, it doesn't justify the ousting of the Tibetan government outright, the importation of Han Chinese into Tibetan population centers as a blatant attempt at cultural obliteration, the growing class divide between poor Tibetans and the Chinese who have moved in, the suppression of a national religion (which incidentally is one of the more tolerant organized religions on the planet), the attempt to house traditionally nomadic families in slum-style barracks so the government can keep tabs on them, the wholesale destruction of Tibetan historical and cultural landmarks, or the mismanagement of vital natural resources and ecologically sensitive sites which flourished under traditional Tibetan practices that left a small footprint on the environment.

Theocracy or not, it should have been the Tibetans choice to modernize and secularize their government. It's not like there aren't models for such self-modernization: the king of neighboring Bhutan is working to do just that in his country.

Unfortunately for Tibet once the current Dalai Lama passes away its chance of independence or even autonomy will grow frighteningly slim, especially since powerful nations are less and less willing to criticize China's practices as China continues to gain economic leverage.
Let me just start by saying that there that the most tolerant religion in the world does not exist. I don't think that the Tamils will think that the Buddhist Sinhalese army are tolerant or the muslim Thais think that the Thai authorities are tolerant. I actually support the Thais and the Sinhalese to restore order but Buddhism (or any othe religion) being very tolerant is an illusion. In any case one can only be so much tolerant, Being too tolerant can be self-destructive.

By the way the Bhutanese are a Tibetan sub-group so a Tibetan group has its independance. I am actually against Bhutan being democratic. Have a democracy like India my nation, no thanks. But yes, India should remain influential in the region.

The passing of the present Dalai Lama would be a good thing for Tibetan representation. Too much focus on one person can be counter-productive. As if others are not capable of representing the Tibetans. With his passing there will be a regional group representing the Tibetans until the next Dalai Lama comes of age since he is selected when he is still a baby.

buddyholly
08-19-2007, 07:47 PM
though the abuses is horrible does not mean that China should give Tibet away on a platter. Tibet was only independant for a few years and did a terrible job administrating the coutnry. It was a theocratic state ruled by the clergy who were inept at ruling. Tibet has prospered under China.

I was wondering who would crawl out of the woodwork to try and justify the appalling torture and genocide being carried out by the Chinese Government, which has hardly changed at all since Mao killed 60 million of his own people. Nowadays if China doesn't get you with cattle prods in the vagina it will get you with lead paint. Nothing can justify what China does to its own people and to any other people that fall within its grasp.

Jim Jones
08-19-2007, 08:04 PM
I was wondering who would crawl out of the woodwork to try and justify the appalling torture and genocide being carried out by the Chinese Government, which has hardly changed at all since Mao killed 60 million of his own people. Nowadays if China doesn't get you with cattle prods in the vagina it will get you with lead paint. Nothing can justify what China does to its own people and to any other people that fall within its grasp.
I am far from being a fan of communism but China is pro market reforms. The government of course has a lot of flaws too. Human rights abuses, policies that are destructive for environment (the government promotes disposable wooden chopsticks instead of plastic ones that results in swaths of trees cut down to make them).

Ideal would be to make China like Japan or South Korea. Like that its influence over North Korea would not be the same and it would bring more stability in region. Having said that I support the annexation of Tibet by China as I support annexation of western sahara by Morroco. Sometimes it is good to see nations reunify.

Haute
08-19-2007, 10:05 PM
Reunification is never going to happen between the PRC and Tibet. Tibetan culture is still under attack the way it was during the Cultural Revolution, and the major monastaries are being controlled by the CCP to earn profit (with none of the money seeing its way back to the Tibetan economy). Educational funding in Tibet is still the lowest in all of China, the Han migrants into Tibet are getting all of the modern jobs with the Tibetans having to remain in the traditional sector of the economy. I can't find the book right now to give you an exact name and location, but in a book I bought in China about the Tibetan economy it was applauded in 2004 when this family of 10 in Tibet was making 10,000 yuan a year; that's USD $1,317 annually, at $131 per person. While we were in Beijing, we had a lecture on the Chinese national economy and the average peasant annual income in 2006 was 3500 yuan, roughly $461 a year. This family in Tibet was being applauded as one of the 'wealthier' families in Tibet, but by the rest of China's standard of peasants they aren't even close (I don't have a figure on 2004, but Dr. Lei said it hadn't changed much in the last few years). And that's the PRC's figure, so the actual figure is probably below that given the PRC's inflated statistics to make themselves look better.

Tibet is being destroyed in every aspect by the PRC; very few Tibetans are allowed to join the CCP within Tibet, but they aren't given any administrative positions, so they have no say in policy areas. And the passing of the current Dalai Lama will be detrimental because the PRC has already picked its own "true Panchen Lama" (Panchen is basically the second in command to the Dalai Lama) to be enthroned, so Tibetans won't even have their own say on Buddhism. No government should be picking religious leaders, and it's just another example on how the PRC is totally overstepping all boundaries.

buddyholly
08-21-2007, 04:31 AM
Sometimes it is good to see nations reunify.

Sometimes. Like, for example, I think it would be good for Britain to bring the Republic of Ireland back into the United Kingdom, now that it is a moneymaker, rather than a liability.

Jim Jones
08-21-2007, 07:13 PM
[QUOTE=J'torian;5885180]I said "one of the more tolerant organized religions," not "the most tolerant religion in the world," and the culture of Buddhism in Tibet is a completely different matter compared to the situations in Sri Lanka and Thailand.

It's interesting that you approve of or defend a lot of what China has done to invade and forcibly modernize Tibet yet are against the idea of Bhutan secularizing its government and modernizing on its own terms. What the logic behind that is, I'd like to know.



Until the next Dalai Lama comes of age there will be major instability among the Tibetans, and there are many who think that part of the reason Tibetans haven't mounted a serious and/or violent resistance against China is precisely because of their respect for the current Dalai Lama. His passing will be good for China, sure (any post-death rebellion would be paltry at best and simply be a further excuse for China to tighten its grip), but not for Tibet.

Also, as mentioned by Sol the Chinese government has caused the disappearance of the boy chosen by the Dalai Lama to be the Panchen Lama and has appointed another boy in his place:



Bingo. :yeah:[/QUOTE
Bhutan is not secularizing its government.It claims that it will modernize its political system but the KIng will still be in chare mark my word. Besides I do jot like that word secularize. A king is not a cleric. You meant reform. I am for law and order and the Bhutanese king can provide this so hell yeah I am for the monarchy to remain.

The Tibetan Dalai lama brought no law and order when such a figure was in power. By the way when one talks about buddhism he talks about the whole religion not just Tibetan buddhism. Is the Pope the head of the Chrisitian church or just the catholic church. Do you know in how many nations Buddhism is prevalent in??? So please, Buddhism is not one of the most tolerant religions in the world. Such a concept does not exist and that should be the case.

So por tibetans are nothing without their Dalai lama. What foolish thinking. :lol:
Let em remind you that the chap is already out of the country. Is Tibet unstable???? No it is not.

The panchen lama may not have disappeared. He may be living a peaceful live like billions of other chinese children.

Warrior
08-22-2007, 12:53 AM
though the abuses is horrible does not mean that China should give Tibet away on a platter. Tibet was only independant for a few years and did a terrible job administrating the coutnry. It was a theocratic state ruled by the clergy who were inept at ruling. Tibet has prospered under China. I don't see why Tibet and other autonomus regions of China like Sikiang should be given independance. Why not then Chechnya, Kashmir, etc...

As for Buddhism and Christianity yes, they both have humanity message. Many Buddhists from Asia are attracted to Christianity and many Christians from the West are attracted to Buddhism.

The issue here is not Tibet's independence, but its cultural survival. One of the most ancient culture that is based on the compasion and non-violence faces extinction. What is more troubling is that younger tibetans are turning away from Dalai Lama, and choosing violence. What disturbs me the most is that they are 'inspired' by Palestinian terrorists. Maybe I am being paranoid here, but I fear that in the distant future they may abandon buddhism and choose islam instead. In this case, the coflict will spread further beyond China.

Richard_from_Cal
09-07-2007, 08:24 PM
Still reading.

Meanwhile, per my promise, in an earlier post, above, here is the article I mentioned, about Buddhism and Christianity.
Despite pop works’ claims, Buddhist, Catholic beliefs collide, don’t blend
http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=24762
^^page 1^^
vv-page 2-vv
http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=24762&page=2
.

Richard_from_Cal
09-13-2007, 09:27 PM
Finished reading the Rolling Stone piece, interesting. Thanks.

R.Federer
09-13-2007, 10:48 PM
though the abuses is horrible does not mean that China should give Tibet away on a platter. Tibet was only independant for a few years and did a terrible job administrating the coutnry. It was a theocratic state ruled by the clergy who were inept at ruling. Tibet has prospered under China. I don't see why Tibet and other autonomus regions of China like Sikiang should be given independance. Why not then Chechnya, Kashmir, etc...

Tibet throughout history was autonomous, always was, before China invaded.
Not the case was Kashmir and Chechnya or Quebec.
Kashmir has never been autonomous. They had a chance during the partition of the two countries, but elected to remain with India. They have never been autonomous. It is not the appropriate comparison with Tibet which has a far longer history of autonomy than of dependence.

Jim Jones
09-15-2007, 02:55 PM
Tibet throughout history was autonomous, always was, before China invaded.
Not the case was Kashmir and Chechnya or Quebec.
Kashmir has never been autonomous. They had a chance during the partition of the two countries, but elected to remain with India. They have never been autonomous. It is not the appropriate comparison with Tibet which has a far longer history of autonomy than of dependence.

I thank you for what you said on Kashmir. Yes we will never give it up. Pakistan tried to take it from us many times, last time during the Kargil war and everytime there was a war they lost their leader was toppled. :lol: (because the people sulk when they see their nation lose and want their leader to pay the price)

As for Chechnya it is and will always be part of Russia. I like that young chap who is the governor there. With regards to Quebec, the fact that the newer immigrants of the state are reticant to Quebec becoming independant means that this will never be the case as immigrant population is growing.