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post #271 of 1410 (permalink) Old 03-09-2011, 10:58 PM
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Re: Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011

The problem is that we confused SAN JOSE with SAO JOSE


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post #272 of 1410 (permalink) Old 03-10-2011, 06:39 AM
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Re: Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011

I just heard that some managers sometimes set the picks deadline different from the official OOP although the rules don't allow it. Why? I was always under the impression that the official deadline is the one that matters and managers can't change it. Here's the rule:

Quote:
Managers will set a deadline at which no more picks will be allowed, even if a point hasn't been played. The deadline will be taken from the official order of play and set at a time when the first match begins.
So what's the situation here? Why isn't this rule being enforced??? I don't think it's a good idea to allow managers to set any deadline they want - but even if the board thinks it's a good idea it has to be in the rules. Right now it's not so I don't understand what's happening here.

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post #273 of 1410 (permalink) Old 03-10-2011, 07:32 AM
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Re: Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011

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Originally Posted by -Evita- View Post
I just heard that some managers sometimes set the picks deadline different from the official OOP although the rules don't allow it. Why? I was always under the impression that the official deadline is the one that matters and managers can't change it. Here's the rule:



So what's the situation here? Why isn't this rule being enforced??? I don't think it's a good idea to allow managers to set any deadline they want - but even if the board thinks it's a good idea it has to be in the rules. Right now it's not so I don't understand what's happening here.
Where have you been? It has happened a lot lately.
A player sends his picks before the official OOP but the managers don't accept it because they set an earlier deadline.
The board was always behind the managers on this one no matter how retarded that is.


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post #274 of 1410 (permalink) Old 03-10-2011, 08:17 AM
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Re: Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011

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Where have you been? It has happened a lot lately.
A player sends his picks before the official OOP but the managers don't accept it because they set an earlier deadline.
The board was always behind the managers on this one no matter how retarded that is.
I hadn't subscribed to this thread so I didn't notice But better late than never.

As I understand it, the role of the TT board is to organize tournaments, help managers, propose and implement rule changes in the off-season and make decisions in case a situation arises that isn't described in the rules. The TT board doesn't have the authority to say "let's ignore this rule for this tournament", do they? What would we need the rules for then? We wouldn't need them at all. If I miss the first deadline and I don't want to be a LE, I'll just ask the board to confirm that my commitment should be regarded as normal. Doesn't matter that it's against the rules, the board has the ultimate power, right? That would be really stupid.

And what's more, Goldenoldie said that he's been doing it since last year. So why wasn't the rule change proposed in the off-season if some managers felt the current rule didn't work well? Sorry, I just don't get it. And I don't think the rule should be changed at all - the deadline should be whenever the first match starts. If the manager can't post differences at that time, well, nothing we can do about it. Players can exchange picks and the manager can post differences 2 hours later or 5 hours later or whenever. Late differences shouldn't be a reason to move up the deadline.

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post #275 of 1410 (permalink) Old 03-10-2011, 08:28 AM
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Re: Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011

What exactly is the problem with this? We're talking an hour or two before the deadline usually, for the convenience of the manager, so that they can post the diffs - because when play starts they may not be around to do so and diffs therefore might not be posted for several hours after play commences.

I agree this isn't something that should be used all the time where avoidable but sometimes managers need the flexibility to set a different deadline in the best interests of running the tournament smoothly. Surely when a player checks the thread daily to get the OOP and find out what's PTS, what are SRs, they can make a note of the deadline - if it's earlier than the start of play, and there's still a decent window in which to do picks, and it's very clearly flagged up that it's an early deadline, then what's the problem?

Speaking personally, although when I manage a tournament I'm nearly always likely to be around for the start of play, there are times when I'm unexpectedly called into meetings or onto a client site at a couple of day's notice and won't be around to post the diffs on the start of play. Personally I think it's better to set a deadline a couple of hours early and get the diffs out than to stick rigidly to the start of play deadline and get the diffs out several hours after play has already begun, but perhaps the board should issue clear and unambiguous guidelines on this - one of them mentioned changing that wording back in January but this hasn't been done as yet.
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post #276 of 1410 (permalink) Old 03-10-2011, 08:36 AM
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Re: Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011

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What exactly is the problem with this?
For me, the problem is that it's against the rules. I've read the rules and I've always been 100% convinced that the deadline is when the play starts so I often don't check the manager's deadline. I've had no reason to, they are supposed to be the same with no exceptions

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post #277 of 1410 (permalink) Old 03-10-2011, 08:37 AM
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Re: Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011

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For me, the problem is that it's against the rules. I've read the rules and I've always been 100% convinced that the deadline is when the play starts so I often don't check the manager's deadline. I've had no reason to
So how do you check the OOP then and know what matches to send and in what priority? The deadline is right there in the manager's OOP.
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post #278 of 1410 (permalink) Old 03-10-2011, 08:42 AM
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Re: Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011

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Originally Posted by -Evita- View Post
I hadn't subscribed to this thread so I didn't notice But better late than never.

As I understand it, the role of the TT board is to organize tournaments, help managers, propose and implement rule changes in the off-season and make decisions in case a situation arises that isn't described in the rules. The TT board doesn't have the authority to say "let's ignore this rule for this tournament", do they? What would we need the rules for then? We wouldn't need them at all. If I miss the first deadline and I don't want to be a LE, I'll just ask the board to confirm that my commitment should be regarded as normal. Doesn't matter that it's against the rules, the board has the ultimate power, right? That would be really stupid.

And what's more, Goldenoldie said that he's been doing it since last year. So why wasn't the rule change proposed in the off-season if some managers felt the current rule didn't work well? Sorry, I just don't get it. And I don't think the rule should be changed at all - the deadline should be whenever the first match starts. If the manager can't post differences at that time, well, nothing we can do about it. Players can exchange picks and the manager can post differences 2 hours later or 5 hours later or whenever. Late differences shouldn't be a reason to move up the deadline.
Exactly.


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What exactly is the problem with this? We're talking an hour or two before the deadline usually, for the convenience of the manager, so that they can post the diffs - because when play starts they may not be around to do so and diffs therefore might not be posted for several hours after play commences.

I agree this isn't something that should be used all the time where avoidable but sometimes managers need the flexibility to set a different deadline in the best interests of running the tournament smoothly. Surely when a player checks the thread daily to get the OOP and find out what's PTS, what are SRs, they can make a note of the deadline - if it's earlier than the start of play, and there's still a decent window in which to do picks, and it's very clearly flagged up that it's an early deadline, then what's the problem?

Speaking personally, although when I manage a tournament I'm nearly always likely to be around for the start of play, there are times when I'm unexpectedly called into meetings or onto a client site at a couple of day's notice and won't be around to post the diffs on the start of play. Personally I think it's better to set a deadline a couple of hours early and get the diffs out than to stick rigidly to the start of play deadline and get the diffs out several hours after play has already begun, but perhaps the board should issue clear and unambiguous guidelines on this - one of them mentioned changing that wording back in January but this hasn't been done as yet.
I feel it's harsh to the players who didn't see the early deadline for whatever reason, but they sent the picks before play has actually started.
For example: you saw the ATP OOP and it said the play starts at 11am CET, and you had to leave before the managers have put the OOP for TT, knowing you'll be back before 11am to make your picks. You come back at let's say 10:30, just in time to make your picks but you see the managers have set an earlier deadline and your picks won't be counted even though your picks were actually on time.
That is harsh and unnecessary. Not everybody can be online and on this site for the whole time.


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post #279 of 1410 (permalink) Old 03-10-2011, 08:42 AM
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Re: Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011

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So how do you check the OOP then and know what matches to send and in what priority? The deadline is right there in the manager's OOP.
Yeah, usually I read it when I check the TT OOP. But sometimes I forget it. I copy the OOP to Notepad (to make my picks sometime later) and I close the MTF page. If I later forget the deadline I sometimes go back to the TT thread and sometimes I check the official OOP. I don't know, I haven't really paid attention to it, as I said I always assumed they would be the same. And they should be the same under the current rules. I'm not saying your arguments are not valid but these are arguments for a rule change, not how to operate currently.

Edit: The scenario Deathless Mortal describes above is also a valid one.

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post #280 of 1410 (permalink) Old 03-10-2011, 08:45 AM
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Re: Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011

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I'm sorry but I vehemently disagree. There is nothing to interpret about the rule. In the earlier years it was allowed to send picks after the deadline if play hadn't started yet - if there was a rain delay, for example. That's why the first part of the rule states that no picks will be allowed after the deadline. And the second part states what the deadline should be. There's nothing to interpret there.

Like I wrote in the managers thread, it isn't the end of the world if the differences are a couple of hours late. If the majority of players feel they would rather move up the deadline than wait for differences, that's fine but the rule needs changing then. You can't do that under the current rule.
Well you can say that all you like but a) I disagree that there's nothing to interpret. Evidently there is if plenty of other managers, including Labamba, who is on the TT board and did this for the Hopman Cup, have needed to set earlier deadlines in order to make the tournament more smoothly.

The rule states:
- Managers will set a deadline at which no more picks will be allowed, even if a point hasn't been played. The deadline will be taken from the official order of play and set at a time when the first match begins.

I argued then and I argue now that the first part of this contradicts the second.

Managers will set a deadline at which no more picks will be allowed, even if a point hasn't been played.

But if the tournament OOP's start of play is THE DEADLINE, then there is no manager setting a deadline, the deadline is already set by the tournament's OOP.

The deadline will be taken from the official order of play and set at a time when the first match begins.

This is fairly explicit but as I say, contradicts at least partially the first part, and I think the overall wording here is too ambiguous.

The reality is that I'm not the first manager who has set an early deadline to make things run more smoothly - at least 2 of the current TT board have done so and therefore there's precedence that is arguing against that rule being applied the way you believe it should be. I can recall early deadlines being set from when I first starting playing TT back in 2009, this is not a new situation.

At the time I had this incident, in January, I asked for the wording on this to be cleared up and the question of whether early deadlines are allowed and if so, under what circumstances, to be made explicit. This has not yet been done so.
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post #281 of 1410 (permalink) Old 03-10-2011, 08:51 AM
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Re: Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011

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I feel it's harsh to the players who didn't see the early deadline for whatever reason, but they sent the picks before play has actually started.
For example: you saw the ATP OOP and it said the play starts at 11am CET, and you had to leave before the managers have put the OOP for TT, knowing you'll be back before 11am to make your picks. You come back at let's say 10:30, just in time to make your picks but you see the managers have set an earlier deadline and your picks won't be counted even though your picks were actually on time.
That is harsh and unnecessary. Not everybody can be online and on this site for the whole time.
Well I tell you what I think is harsh.

I think it's harsh to expect a TT manager to be available for 9 days of a tournament at a time when the deadline is due to pass - especially given that THEY don't know when the start of play will be until late the previous day. Frankly it means we're expected to just avoid any outside commitments so that we're not inconveniencing the one or two players for whom the 12 or 13 hour window wasn't quite enough, they MUST have that extra 30 minutes or 1 hour in which to get their picks in.

The alternative is posting diffs, potentially 5 or 6 hours late, and I tell you something, in my TT experience there's FAR more complaints about managers not being around to post diffs in a timely manner than there are about missing the deadline because it was earlier than the start of play. Hell, people start jumping up and down when they're 30 or 45 minutes late...
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post #282 of 1410 (permalink) Old 03-10-2011, 08:55 AM
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Re: Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011

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I argued then and I argue now that the first part of this contradicts the second.

Managers will set a deadline at which no more picks will be allowed, even if a point hasn't been played.

But if the tournament OOP's start of play is THE DEADLINE, then there is no manager setting a deadline, the deadline is already set by the tournament's OOP.

The deadline will be taken from the official order of play and set at a time when the first match begins.

This is fairly explicit but as I say, contradicts at least partially the first part, and I think the overall wording here is too ambiguous.
The point of the first part is that there will be a deadline after which no picks are accepted. Maybe it is a bit awkward wording because Murilo's native language isn't English but that's the point of that sentence. In contrast to earlier years when there was no fixed deadline and people could send picks up to the point when play actually started. The "manager sets the deadline" means that the manager will write the deadline with the OOP, not that manager can choose the deadline. I think it's pretty clear when you look at both sentences together.

I hope Murilo can come here and clear it up.

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post #283 of 1410 (permalink) Old 03-10-2011, 08:56 AM
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Re: Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011

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The point of the first part is that there will be a deadline after which no picks are accepted. Maybe it is a bit awkward wording because Murilo's native language isn't English but that's the point of that sentence. In contrast to earlier years when there was no fixed deadline and people could send picks up to the point when play actually started. The "manager sets the deadline" means that the manager will write the deadline with the OOP, not that manager can choose the deadline. I think it's pretty clear when you look at both sentences together.

I hope Murilo can come here and clear it up.
Well you keep saying that it seems pretty clear but evidently I don't agree with you and nor do a number of other managers, including two of whom are on the TT board.
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post #284 of 1410 (permalink) Old 03-10-2011, 09:06 AM
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Re: Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011

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Well I tell you what I think is harsh.

I think it's harsh to expect a TT manager to be available for 9 days of a tournament at a time when the deadline is due to pass - especially given that THEY don't know when the start of play will be until late the previous day. Frankly it means we're expected to just avoid any outside commitments so that we're not inconveniencing the one or two players for whom the 12 or 13 hour window wasn't quite enough, they MUST have that extra 30 minutes or 1 hour in which to get their picks in.

The alternative is posting diffs, potentially 5 or 6 hours late, and I tell you something, in my TT experience there's FAR more complaints about managers not being around to post diffs in a timely manner than there are about missing the deadline because it was earlier than the start of play. Hell, people start jumping up and down when they're 30 or 45 minutes late...
But this is a different issue. Maybe the rule should be changed, maybe not, that's something to discuss in the off-season. Right now we're talking about the current rules.

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Well you keep saying that it seems pretty clear but evidently I don't agree with you and nor do a number of other managers, including two of whom are on the TT board.
Like I said, I hope Murilo can clarify it. He's the one who wrote the FAQ so he should know best what the rules actually mean.

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post #285 of 1410 (permalink) Old 03-10-2011, 09:08 AM
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Re: Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011

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Well I tell you what I think is harsh.

I think it's harsh to expect a TT manager to be available for 9 days of a tournament at a time when the deadline is due to pass - especially given that THEY don't know when the start of play will be until late the previous day. Frankly it means we're expected to just avoid any outside commitments so that we're not inconveniencing the one or two players for whom the 12 or 13 hour window wasn't quite enough, they MUST have that extra 30 minutes or 1 hour in which to get their picks in.

The alternative is posting diffs, potentially 5 or 6 hours late, and I tell you something, in my TT experience there's FAR more complaints about managers not being around to post diffs in a timely manner than there are about missing the deadline because it was earlier than the start of play. Hell, people start jumping up and down when they're 30 or 45 minutes late...
So your point is that the managers can't always be available for 9 days of a tournament.. That is correct but why don't you say that to those who would complain about the late differences?
I don't think it should be about how many people complain. Of course people would get frustrated but I think they would all accept the fact that the manager has a real life too and can't be around when the play starts. IMO it should be about what's fair, and not accepting someone's valid picks isn't. Crocodile said he won't be playing anymore because those rules are ruining the game and he has been playing since the early beginnings of tennis tipping. He should be appreciated as a player, and I think that's a bigger problem than a few people complaining about the late differences.


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