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post #61 of 160 (permalink) Old 03-28-2013, 05:58 PM
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Re: Change of banning rules debate

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Originally Posted by SloKid View Post
It's not up to you or me to decide what is insulting or not or offensive or not for someone else, is it?. I wrote about in the other thread at length.

The thing that offend me do not offend the moderating staff so I guess the moderating staff does decide what is offensive.
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post #62 of 160 (permalink) Old 03-28-2013, 06:04 PM
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Re: Change of banning rules debate

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Originally Posted by The Bulldog View Post
Well if you post on the Teletubbies forum, it's unlikely that people are going to insult eachother with rude words.

Seriously, I think moderation should be strict. We're here to talk about tennis and other things in a reasonable manner (which no doubt can be fun), not cause trouble just because we can hide behind an online alias.
I have no problem with strict moderation, but this board is not strictly moderated. I mean for god's sake a moderator was running the ACC. There are myriad threads made up just to bash players. Posters constantly say rude things to each other. Obscenities are commonplace.

So, sometimes the moderators crack down and sometimes they don't. Then you are told that you should report offensive posts, but in private, moderators complain about posters who report and don't want to encourage reporting. It's a conundrum.

And in support of Lee about Aspergers -- it isn't just that a person might have the syndrome, but that someone's brother or child or aunt or best friend might suffer and it hurts a bit.
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post #63 of 160 (permalink) Old 03-28-2013, 06:05 PM
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Re: Change of banning rules debate

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Originally Posted by The Bulldog View Post
The moderation is very lenient here. I am a member of a couple of other forums, where the moderation is more strict, and everyone is nice to eachother and constructive. Here, you can get away with loads before you get serious bans, so these changes would be going the wrong way.

Yes, we want MTF to be fun, but we don't want relaxed rules that encourage people to take minor hits for example wishing death and making doping allegations, because it's amusing.

So if anything, we need to go the other way.
You nailed it man, imo you're absolutely right and agree fully.

I've expressed this same feeling on a couple of other threads that were a bit related and, that is, in fact the current scenario here concerning the moderation. However, it's also true and i agree with some people in the sense that moderation should include some flexibility when evaluating the cases which could result in a severe ban... like many have stated, there should exist some differences between how things are handled in the tennis related section (GM, etc.) and the NT area. Not saying there should exist totally different rules for each section because that wouldn't make much sense and, on the contrary, could lead to more chaos and confusion, but just a change in how them are considering the context in which things are being said by all of us posters.

I've always tried to battle and get through some of the endless trolling and madness that sometimes takeover GM and wondered how is it possible that so many people get away with the things they say, and that's were your notion clearly stands and makes absolute sense: how is it possible that all that bashing (both player and personal between posters bashing) occurs and 0 action is taken? in many other sites, like it has been said, that would simply never occur and the sanctions are way stricter.

Now, truth be told, that's what makes it even more difficult for the mods here. GM and NT are polar opposites in regards of the atmosphere, context of things being said, etc. for a big big part.

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post #64 of 160 (permalink) Old 03-28-2013, 06:07 PM
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Re: Change of banning rules debate

I have been active on many internet forums since the late 90s, and I am yet to find a more horrendously moderated forum than this one. Despotic, arbitrary, condescending, immature... you name it.

That's all I have to say.

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Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
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post #65 of 160 (permalink) Old 03-28-2013, 06:07 PM
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Re: Change of banning rules debate

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I have no problem with strict moderation, but this board is not strictly moderated. I mean for god's sake a moderator was running the ACC. There are myriad threads made up just to bash players. Posters constantly say rude things to each other. Obscenities are commonplace.

So, sometimes the moderators crack down and sometimes they don't. Then you are told that you should report offensive posts, but in private, moderators complain about posters who report and don't want to encourage reporting. It's a conundrum.

And in support of Lee about Aspergers -- it isn't just that a person might have the syndrome, but that someone's brother or child or aunt or best friend might suffer and it hurts a bit.
Exactly, not only do I want stricter moderation, I want consistency and transparency with as much of the moderators' actions as possible. Yes, they will get it wrong sometimes, but there's no doubt that they could do a better job than they are doing now.
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post #66 of 160 (permalink) Old 03-28-2013, 06:13 PM
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Re: Change of banning rules debate

A new set of rules to be mindlessly applied will not change anything. The only thing that could change the status quo is a new set of moderators, willing to use their brain and, you know, actually moderate the site ie not doing things a robot could be programmed to do.

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post #67 of 160 (permalink) Old 03-28-2013, 06:20 PM
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Re: Change of banning rules debate

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You nailed it man, imo you're absolutely right and agree fully.

I've expressed this same feeling on a couple of other threads that were a bit related and, that is, in fact the current scenario here concerning the moderation. However, it's also true and i agree with some people in the sense that moderation should include some flexibility when evaluating the cases which could result in a severe ban... like many have stated, there should exist some differences between how things are handled in the tennis related section (GM, etc.) and the NT area. Not saying there should exist totally different rules for each section because that wouldn't make much sense and, on the contrary, could lead to more chaos and confusion, but just a change in how them are considering the context in which things are being said by all of us posters.

I've always tried to battle and get through some of the endless trolling and madness that sometimes takeover GM and wondered how is it possible that so many people get away with the things the say, and that's were your notion clearly stands and makes absolute sense: how is it possible that all that bashing (both player and personal between posters bashing) occurs and 0 action is taken? in many other sites, like it has been said, that would simply never occur and the sanctions are way stricter.

Now, truth be told, that's what makes it even more difficult for the mods here. GM and NT are polar opposites in regards of the atmosphere, context of things being said, etc. for a big big part.
Discretion is a great tool, but it has to be used wisely and only when the time calls for it.

The thing is, if the idea of much stricter moderation was proposed, I think it would be rejected by the majorly, which proves my point. A lot of people come here, primarily to cause trouble, secondarily to talk about tennis. That shouldn't be the way things work. The only way forward is to filter out these people who contribute nothing constructive to the forum AND do little other than insult people. I'm not suggesting that you should be zapped if you insult someone else straight away, but it would be reasonable to me to permanently ban someone who uses discriminatory remarks more than once. I can accept that it could happen once, 'in the heat of the moment'. If it happens twice, then they person hasn't learned their lesson and they deserve to be dismissed for good.

It comes back to my point about discretion though, if somebody is on the forum and not really doing anything apart from trolling, let's not hang around and wait until they accumulate enough infraction points. Make it known to them immediately that this isn't the place to come and cause that sort of trouble, and people will stop doing it.

For me, permanent bans are handed out too sparingly, and often too late to act as an effective deterrent, because long-standing members still think that insults and discriminatory remarks aren't out of place on here. I suggest the moderators shouldn't be scared to stand up and take more severe action sometimes. I know this rather opposes what many others say, but it's truly what I believe the forum needs.
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post #68 of 160 (permalink) Old 03-28-2013, 06:25 PM
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Re: Change of banning rules debate

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Originally Posted by star View Post
The thing that offend me do not offend the moderating staff so I guess the moderating staff does decide what is offensive.
Can you name examples, please?
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Originally Posted by star View Post
I have no problem with strict moderation, but this board is not strictly moderated. I mean for god's sake a moderator was running the ACC. There are myriad threads made up just to bash players. Posters constantly say rude things to each other. Obscenities are commonplace.

So, sometimes the moderators crack down and sometimes they don't. Then you are told that you should report offensive posts, but in private, moderators complain about posters who report and don't want to encourage reporting. It's a conundrum.

And in support of Lee about Aspergers -- it isn't just that a person might have the syndrome, but that someone's brother or child or aunt or best friend might suffer and it hurts a bit.
I agree the forum moderation is too lenient at times and I think it comes from the moderators often fearing the backlash unfortunately. As whenever the moderators crack down, then it's a dictatorship all of a sudden, no freedom of speech etc. That all leads to the forum being in the state that it is in, basically the reason behind it is the opposite of what many say the reason is. Wholesale changes are needed and most of what you say has no place on mtf.

I don't think the part about moderators complaining about posters who report is true, at least not in the way that would result in the moderator not taking action over a reported post. So reporting of posts remains more than welcome.

See, that's the problem. People being keyboard warriors and completely ignoring the fact that their words are read and reacted to by people just like them. In general the internet is becoming a degenerated beast. Just look at all the crap that is put out there on social media like twitter or read the comments on news websites. Absolutely disgusting.
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post #69 of 160 (permalink) Old 03-28-2013, 06:29 PM
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Re: Change of banning rules debate

If the moderators acted quickly, these 'clowns' would never be allowed to grow popular enough to be so greatly missed when they do eventually get permanently banned.

You would get no backlash if you fully committed, it's this half-hearted approach of only permanently banning members when frankly, they should have been gone a long time previously. Then because they have grown so popular, you get the backlash, not because of your real mistake of delaying too long, more because you banned someone whom most have grown to be fond of.
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post #70 of 160 (permalink) Old 03-28-2013, 06:30 PM
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Re: Change of banning rules debate

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Originally Posted by The Bulldog View Post
Discretion is a great tool, but it has to be used wisely and only when the time calls for it.

The thing is, if the idea of much stricter moderation was proposed, I think it would be rejected by the majorly, which proves my point. A lot of people come here, primarily to cause trouble, secondarily to talk about tennis. That shouldn't be the way things work. The only way forward is to filter out these people who contribute nothing constructive to the forum AND do little other than insult people. I'm not suggesting that you should be zapped if you insult someone else straight away, but it would be reasonable to me to permanently ban someone who uses discriminatory remarks more than once. I can accept that it could happen once, 'in the heat of the moment'. If it happens twice, then they person hasn't learned their lesson and they deserve to be dismissed for good.

It comes back to my point about discretion though, if somebody is on the forum and not really doing anything apart from trolling, let's not hang around and wait until they accumulate enough infraction points. Make it known to them immediately that this isn't the place to come and cause that sort of trouble, and people will stop doing it.

For me, permanent bans are handed out too sparingly, and often too late to act as an effective deterrent, because long-standing members still think that insults and discriminatory remarks aren't out of place on here. I suggest the moderators shouldn't be scared to stand up and take more severe action sometimes. I know this rather opposes what many others say, but it's truly what I believe the forum needs.
^ amen, but that would require a different mindset and maybe even a 'fresh start' from their (mods) approach on how to deal with those type of posters and apply the rules and sanctions, plus warnings with the right timing.

while we are on topic, I truly think you would be a good moderator George.

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post #71 of 160 (permalink) Old 03-28-2013, 06:32 PM
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Re: Change of banning rules debate

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A new set of rules to be mindlessly applied will not change anything. The only thing that could change the status quo is a new set of moderators, willing to use their brain and, you know, actually moderate the site ie not doing things a robot could be programmed to do.
That's not the problem. Problem is that majority of posters simply don't respect the moderators and have their own agendas they follow. There's a massive uproar for the smallest of things. People online are much more vocal and much less civilised, when voicing their displeasure than in real life, so whatever the approach is there is a massive vocal group that disagrees with what you do and argues about it ad nauseam, because they are for most part protected by the anonimity they get by being online. The extremes online are so much more pronounced, the middle round is near impossible to find, so there's a lot of meandering, which brings little result.

It's easy to express what you think the problem is like you did, but I guarantee you, that it would change little. However I'm willing to quit right here right now, if that would make any sort of change for the better.

I agree with this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bulldog View Post
The thing is, if the idea of much stricter moderation was proposed, I think it would be rejected by the majorly, which proves my point. A lot of people come here, primarily to cause trouble, secondarily to talk about tennis. That shouldn't be the way things work. The only way forward is to filter out these people who contribute nothing constructive to the forum AND do little other than insult people. I'm not suggesting that you should be zapped if you insult someone else straight away, but it would be reasonable to me to permanently ban someone who uses discriminatory remarks more than once. I can accept that it could happen once, 'in the heat of the moment'. If it happens twice, then they person hasn't learned their lesson and they deserve to be dismissed for good.
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post #72 of 160 (permalink) Old 03-28-2013, 06:36 PM
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Re: Change of banning rules debate

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Originally Posted by The Bulldog View Post
If the moderators acted quickly, these 'clowns' would never be allowed to grow popular enough to be so greatly missed when they do eventually get permanently banned.

You would get no backlash if you fully committed, it's this half-hearted approach of only permanently banning members when frankly, they should have been gone a long time previously. Then because they have grown so popular, you get the backlash, not because of your real mistake of delaying too long, more because you banned someone whom most have grown to be fond of.
I'm aware that's the issue, I've been in favour of a zero tolerance approach towards posters, whose main intention from day 1 is to disrupt and troll.

Unfortunately the issue with a lot of these 'clowns' as you put it is that the issue has dragged for so long and the roots of it are deep to deal with overnight.
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post #73 of 160 (permalink) Old 03-28-2013, 06:39 PM
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Re: Change of banning rules debate

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^ amen, but that would require a different mindset and maybe even a 'fresh start' from their (mods) approach on how to deal with those type of posters and apply the rules and sanctions, plus warnings with the right timing.

while we are on topic, I truly think you would be a good moderator George.
Of course, Antonio. The forum does need a fresh start, if achieving a more pleasant place to spend time is the objective of the moderation policies.

I'm not surprised you think I'd make a good moderator, because I already moderate on another forum. I apply the same thinking as I have outlined above, and I don't have an unpleasant time doing it. Stricter application of the rules means that the only active users are ones who truly are there to talk about the subject matter. No full-time trolls like there are on here. I've no doubt that's mostly due to the fact that a mathematics and physics forum is not an attractive place to troll compared to a tennis forum, but we do get people joining who want to cause trouble, and once we realise that they aren't contributing anything, they get zapped. No leniency.

I have absolutely no interest in moderating this website though, it's a different animal. I respect these guys who moderate because it's a hard job. Not a lot of people will understand until they've done it. And what I would add is that I imagine that because this forum isn't exclusive, in that tennis is quite an accessible subject matter, a lot of different kinds of people join. That creates friction, which means more moderation is needed. It's tough, so I urge everyone else to think twice before mindlessly bashing them. By all means, offer constructive thoughts though.
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post #74 of 160 (permalink) Old 03-28-2013, 06:41 PM
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Re: Change of banning rules debate

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I'm aware that's the issue, I've been in favour of a zero tolerance approach towards posters, whose main intention from day 1 is to disrupt and troll.
I agree with that. I think everybody agrees with that. But nobody agrees it applies to Feldman.

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post #75 of 160 (permalink) Old 03-28-2013, 06:43 PM
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Re: Change of banning rules debate

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I agree with that. I think everybody agrees with that. But nobody agrees it applies to Feldman.
This thread isn't specifically about Feldman though. It's about the policies in general.

If what I suggested was applied, you'd have less chance of this kind of mess happening.
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