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post #256 of 1013 (permalink) Old 12-11-2003, 04:49 AM
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Re: beat this!.....1002 ways we love andy!

Well who are the top tier legends?

Bill Tilden, Rod Laver, What's his name -- the redhead who won the grand slam.. Budge? I need to get out my Tennis Encyclopedia. Gonzales? Or doesn't he get legend status because he dominated in a time when he couldn't play the slams?
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post #257 of 1013 (permalink) Old 12-11-2003, 04:53 AM
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Re: beat this!.....1002 ways we love andy!

Well, here's the all-time top grand slam winners list -- those with 5 or more slams. It's not the only criterion, obviously, but I think it's the first one people would look at:

Through 2003 US Open
Aust Fren Wimb U.S. Total
Pete Sampras 2 - 7 5 14
Roy Emerson 6 2 2 2 12
Bjorn Borg - 6 5 - 11
Rod Laver 3 2 4 2 11
Bill Tilden - - 3 7 10
Andre Agassi 4 1 1 2 8
Jimmy Connors 1 - 2 5 8
Ivan Lendl 2 3 - 3 8
Fred Perry 1 1 3 3 8
Ken Rosewall 4 2 - 2 8
Henri Cochet - 4 2 1 7
Rene Lacoste - 3 2 2 7
Bill Larned - - - 7 7
John McEnroe - - 3 4 7
John Newcombe 2 - 3 2 7
Willie Renshaw - - 7 - 7
Richard Sears - - - 7 7
Mats Wilander 3 3 - 1 7
Boris Becker 2 - 3 1 6
Don Budge 1 1 2 2 6
Jack Crawford 4 1 1 - 6
Laurie Doherty - - 5 1 6
Stefan Edberg 2 - 2 2 6
Tony Wilding 2 - 4 - 6
Frank Sedgman 2 - 1 2 5
Tony Trabert - 2 1 2 5


I would probably put those with 10 or more in Tier 1, 7 or 8 in tier II, and 5 or 6 in tier II. That's a very rough way of doing it, I suppose. Certainly some players have extra things on their resume which don't show up in the Total slams column. (McEnroe posting the best win-loss record ever in 1984, 82-3, or Agassi winning all 4 slams). But for the most part, I think that works.

Last edited by MisterQ; 12-11-2003 at 04:57 AM.
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post #258 of 1013 (permalink) Old 12-11-2003, 05:06 AM
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Re: beat this!.....1002 ways we love andy!

I dunno.... to me slams don't tell the whole story. for me it's all about legacy, the whole package, what the person did, the mark on the sport the person made, how they will be remembered.

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post #259 of 1013 (permalink) Old 12-11-2003, 05:06 AM
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Re: Re: beat this!.....1002 ways we love andy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterQ
I think the tier 3 legend thing makes some sense. I can see how there are two groups of legends above Becker/Edberg. Still, it would be interesting to hear you elaborate on the tiers, jackson.

Are there tier 4 legends? Like, would Guga and Courier get legend status, or do they fall short of that? Maybe they're the best you can be without being a legend? hmmmm
Deb, Mr. Q...I consider Tier 3 legends to be with 5-6 slams. I wouldn't consider Courier or Kuerten to be legends, for example.

I would put Agassi in Tier 2, with his 8 slams and Career Slam. I would also put Lendl there. And perhaps Johnny Mac.

Tier 1 legend to me is Sampras, Borg, Laver, etc.

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post #260 of 1013 (permalink) Old 12-11-2003, 05:12 AM
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Re: Re: Re: beat this!.....1002 ways we love andy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1jackson2001
Deb, Mr. Q...I consider Tier 3 legends to be with 5-6 slams. I wouldn't consider Courier or Kuerten to be legends, for example.

I would put Agassi in Tier 2, with his 8 slams and Career Slam. I would also put Lendl there. And perhaps Johnny Mac.

Tier 1 legend to me is Sampras, Borg, Laver, etc.
I basically agree. But you were much more concise than I!

Now this is why I really want Andre to win another slam. He could start to push into Tier 1 territory. But it is a tough task with all these young players' games maturing.
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post #261 of 1013 (permalink) Old 12-11-2003, 05:34 AM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: beat this!.....1002 ways we love andy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterQ
I basically agree. But you were much more concise than I!

Now this is why I really want Andre to win another slam. He could start to push into Tier 1 territory. But it is a tough task with all these young players' games maturing.
If Andre wins two more slams, and especially those two being the French and Wimbledon (since that would give him two Career Grand Slams), I'd put him in Tier 1 Category.

That would compare him a lot more favorably to Pete. But Pete would still be ahead IMO. In fact, I would almost have to create a separate even higher level tier for Pete by himself. It's not just the slams count. It's those 286 weeks at #1 (compared to Andre's current of 101 only), 6 year-end #1s, and his favorable head to head record against Andre.

Some people consider Laver to be greater than Sampras because of his two calendar year Grand Slams (was it consecutive, btw?...I forgot). Some put them about equal. Personally, I'd put him below Sampras. Laver played at an era where almost if not all the slams were played on grass. Think about how many slams Pete would have today if all slams are played on grass til today. At least 20 slams, me thinks. So that is why I think Pete is greater than Rod. At least that's my argument/logic anyway.

Don't misunderstand me, Laver's 2 Grand Slams are huge achievements in their own right.


(Oh, btw...can you tell I like to talk/discuss about tennis achievements ?)

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Last edited by 1jackson2001; 12-11-2003 at 05:38 AM.
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post #262 of 1013 (permalink) Old 12-11-2003, 05:49 AM
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Re: beat this!.....1002 ways we love andy!

But of course Laver would most likely have won more slams if he didn't turn pro during an era when the slams were limited to amateurs.

Like father, like son

"For seven and a half years I've worked alongside President Reagan. We've had triumphs. Made some mistakes. We've had some sex...uh...setbacks."
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"I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family."
George W. Bush, 2000

15.5 - 40.5 ... 2,1,1 demolition job
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post #263 of 1013 (permalink) Old 12-11-2003, 05:50 AM
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Re: beat this!.....1002 ways we love andy!

Thank god for the Open Era.

Like father, like son

"For seven and a half years I've worked alongside President Reagan. We've had triumphs. Made some mistakes. We've had some sex...uh...setbacks."
George H.W. Bush, 1988

"I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family."
George W. Bush, 2000

15.5 - 40.5 ... 2,1,1 demolition job
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post #264 of 1013 (permalink) Old 12-11-2003, 05:50 AM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: beat this!.....1002 ways we love andy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1jackson2001
(Oh, btw...can you tell I like to talk/discuss about tennis achievements ?)
noooooo I couldn't tell at all

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post #265 of 1013 (permalink) Old 12-11-2003, 02:12 PM
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Re: beat this!.....1002 ways we love andy!

noooooooooooooooooooooooo

The number of slams can't be it.

Budge won the grand slam. That automatically ramps him up.

Plus those playing as "amatures" like Budge, had shortened careers.

I'd put Budge ahead of Emerson. Ditto Lacoste.

I think there has to be some weighting for eras played. There was no way that those playing in the early days of the sport could have a career that spanned 13 or 14 years. Plus you have to look at their stature in the game at the time.
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post #266 of 1013 (permalink) Old 12-11-2003, 06:27 PM
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Re: beat this!.....1002 ways we love andy!

I took that into account star. I don't base everything on just number of slams.

Like father, like son

"For seven and a half years I've worked alongside President Reagan. We've had triumphs. Made some mistakes. We've had some sex...uh...setbacks."
George H.W. Bush, 1988

"I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family."
George W. Bush, 2000

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post #267 of 1013 (permalink) Old 12-11-2003, 06:30 PM
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what good reasons to like Andy people and i think that Andy can get himself into probably at least the Tier III people

Andy Roddick.Fernando Verdasco.Richard Gasquet.Tommy Haas





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post #268 of 1013 (permalink) Old 12-11-2003, 06:53 PM
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Re: beat this!.....1002 ways we love andy!

We shall see!

Like father, like son

"For seven and a half years I've worked alongside President Reagan. We've had triumphs. Made some mistakes. We've had some sex...uh...setbacks."
George H.W. Bush, 1988

"I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family."
George W. Bush, 2000

15.5 - 40.5 ... 2,1,1 demolition job
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post #269 of 1013 (permalink) Old 12-11-2003, 07:02 PM
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Re: beat this!.....1002 ways we love andy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naldo
what good reasons to like Andy people and i think that Andy can get himself into probably at least the Tier III people
I think so too. But he has to stay focused and WORK WORK WORK!

Last edited by MisterQ; 12-11-2003 at 07:04 PM.
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post #270 of 1013 (permalink) Old 12-11-2003, 07:26 PM
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Re: beat this!.....1002 ways we love andy!

Maybe us peeps are partially biased?

I think so as well.

Like father, like son

"For seven and a half years I've worked alongside President Reagan. We've had triumphs. Made some mistakes. We've had some sex...uh...setbacks."
George H.W. Bush, 1988

"I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family."
George W. Bush, 2000

15.5 - 40.5 ... 2,1,1 demolition job
(fan club spots are still open! )
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