German Nobel Prize winner deemed "persona non grata" by Israel - MensTennisForums.com
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post #1 of 141 (permalink) Old 04-09-2012, 04:52 AM Thread Starter
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German Nobel Prize winner deemed "persona non grata" by Israel

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middle...439478197.html

if israel is so convinced about the rightfulness of their cause, then why the strong intolerance and discrimination towards the ones who think differently?

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post #2 of 141 (permalink) Old 04-09-2012, 08:30 AM
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Re: German Nobel Prize winner denied entry into Israel

Wasn't there some controversy with him that goes back to WW2 or something?

“There’s so many athletes, tennis players around the world,” he continued, trying to put his life into some kind of perspective, “they want to be the best in what they do. They want to succeed. Many of them, they don’t succeed in the end. I’m fortunate to have this opportunity and succeed.”
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post #3 of 141 (permalink) Old 04-09-2012, 08:33 AM
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Re: German Nobel Prize winner denied entry into Israel

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Wasn't there some controversy with him that goes back to WW2 or something?
Obican SS-ovac.

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post #4 of 141 (permalink) Old 04-09-2012, 08:36 AM
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Re: German Nobel Prize winner denied entry into Israel

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Originally Posted by abraxas21 View Post
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middle...439478197.html

if israel is so convinced about the rightfulness of their cause, then why the strong intolerance and discrimination towards the ones who think differently?
TBH, who writes a poem like that and a few days later tries to enter the country? both parties
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post #5 of 141 (permalink) Old 04-09-2012, 09:58 AM
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Re: German Nobel Prize winner denied entry into Israel

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Originally Posted by abraxas21 View Post
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middle...439478197.html

if israel is so convinced about the rightfulness of their cause, then why the strong intolerance and discrimination towards the ones who think differently?
So, they should tolerate those who don't tolerate them and their country? Only an idiot would allow that nazi scum to enter Israel. If Serbia had normal government, he would be "persona non grata" here as well, for his support of NATO aggression of '99.
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post #6 of 141 (permalink) Old 04-09-2012, 10:34 AM
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Re: German Nobel Prize winner denied entry into Israel

Former SS member, who hid it all his life, and as far as I know (and I can be wrong) wasn't in Israel before, tries to enter it days after an antisemetic poem (and it wasn't Israel criticism, it was just Antisemitic). It's nothing but a provocation.

If it was me making the decisions, he would have entered, but I don't think forbidding his entrance is particularly undemocratic.
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post #7 of 141 (permalink) Old 04-09-2012, 02:08 PM Thread Starter
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Re: German Nobel Prize winner denied entry into Israel

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TBH, who writes a poem like that and a few days later tries to enter the country? both parties
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tries to enter it days after an antisemetic poem
what makes you think he tried to enter israel right after writing the poem?

my understanding is that israel decided to declare him "persona non-grata" right away, without gunter trying to enter israel.

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post #8 of 141 (permalink) Old 04-09-2012, 02:15 PM Thread Starter
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Re: German Nobel Prize winner denied entry into Israel

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it wasn't Israel criticism, it was just Antisemitic.
i've read the poem and it's not antisemitic at all. it's merely political.

the idea of accusing everyone that criticizes israel of being racist/antisemitic is getting pretty old... then again, it's always expected.

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post #9 of 141 (permalink) Old 04-09-2012, 02:28 PM
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Re: German Nobel Prize winner denied entry into Israel

The article you posted says the poem was published Wednesday.....
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post #10 of 141 (permalink) Old 04-09-2012, 02:50 PM Thread Starter
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Re: German Nobel Prize winner denied entry into Israel

And?

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post #11 of 141 (permalink) Old 04-09-2012, 03:03 PM
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Re: German Nobel Prize winner denied entry into Israel

The non-scientific Nobel Prizes have been a complete joke for a very long time. Him winning one shouldn't mean he has some sort of special standing.

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post #12 of 141 (permalink) Old 04-09-2012, 03:24 PM
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Re: German Nobel Prize winner denied entry into Israel

Uh? Grass hasn't tried to enter Israel. Where do you guys get that from?

Israel's reaction is exaggerated, childish and populistic. Unproper of a serious, mature state.

Voices are rising against it even from within Israel.

(in German)
http://de.reuters.com/article/domest...83804320120409

http://www.talmud.li/2012/04/09/isra...er-morgenpost/

And it is indeed annoying how any criticism of Israel is immediately labelled antisemitic...
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post #13 of 141 (permalink) Old 04-09-2012, 03:36 PM
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Re: German Nobel Prize winner denied entry into Israel

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Originally Posted by abraxas21 View Post
i've read the poem and it's not antisemitic at all. it's merely political.

the idea of accusing everyone that criticizes israel of being racist/antisemitic is getting pretty old... then again, it's always expected.
Part of that problem is that the jewish community share in an agenda outside of their religion.

When a religion tries to attach agendas to the religion they are open to criticism as any group with an agenda.

Why should everyone like jewish people?
Some don't believe in their religion and how it affects the people's actions of that religion.

Antisemitism is not bad at all when you look at it this way, it's just an opinion and there is nothing wrong with expressing it.


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post #14 of 141 (permalink) Old 04-09-2012, 04:49 PM
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Re: German Nobel Prize winner denied entry into Israel

Because the present Israeli leadership simply can't swallow people voicing opinions that deviate from their established dogma. I know it's difficult to believe, that they would want us believe that occupying a foreign land for 45 years now, with no end in sight, and against overwhelming international opinion, is the reasonable act of a resonable, 'democratic' () government (maybe they mean 'democratic' in the sense the word was used in Alabama until the 50s and in South Africa until the 90s.... meaning glaringly undemocratic for anybody who hasn't been brainwashed by Orwelian level "newspeak").

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Former SS member, who hid it all his life,
Wonderful and constructive way to refer to a 17 year old teen who, when drafted as all German kids were, chose to serve in an elite tank unit while his country was fighting a losing war. You make it sound like if he had eagerly volunteered for the cause of Ahnenerbe.

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and as far as I know (and I can be wrong) wasn't in Israel before,
Yes, you are wrong. Grass has been in Israel repeatedly these last decades, at least three of them invited to lecture in Israeli Universities. He has spoken in favour of Israel, many times, and has been for years one of the most outspoken voices in Germany against forgetfulness or down-playing of the Nazi horror. That is precisely what the hardliners in Israel can't fathom, that this is a moral leader against Nazism expressing dissent. If he was a far right freak, he would mostly have been ignored.

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tries to enter it days after
No, Grass hasn't tried to enter Israel. No need for someone to be on your doorstep for a country to issue a 'persona nongrata' statement. Those things don't work that way.

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Originally Posted by Or Levy View Post
an antisemetic poem (and it wasn't Israel criticism, it was just Antisemitic). It's nothing but a provocation.
The resource to labeling as Antisemitic anyone who dares critizice the established dogma of the Israeli intelligentsia is so expected, so weak an argument, that Grass actually included it in his poem. The automatic, kneejerk, manner in which that accusation is brougth out, actually is solid proof that Grass is onto something. Now, if he hadn't immediately been accused of Antisemitism, if his opinion had been received as just that, a freely expressed critical view on Netanyahu's policies, you would have an argument that maybe Grass had exaggerated. On the contrary, your reaction mostly proves his point.

In the end, the lie to accusations of Antisemitism has been given by Israelis themselves. People like Gideon Levy, on the pages of Haaretz, and several other well known Israeli writers and intellectuals, have come out in defence of Grass. But, of course, those truly democratic citizens of Israel who really want to move things forward with peace and justice for all, they are only self-hating Jews, aren't they?

Just a few weeks ago, David Grossman, who is obviously just another Antisemite, published an opinion column on several of Europe's main newspapers. The details were different, but its core idea was very much online with Grass's poems.

Evil always tries to thrive on the silence of the just. Read Hannah Arendt on that.
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post #15 of 141 (permalink) Old 04-09-2012, 05:05 PM
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Re: German Nobel Prize winner denied entry into Israel

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Originally Posted by swisht4u View Post
Why should everyone like jewish people?
Some don't believe in their religion and how it affects the people's actions of that religion.

Antisemitism is not bad at all when you look at it this way, it's just an opinion and there is nothing wrong with expressing it.
Who said you have to like them? There's a wee bit difference between "I'm indifferent" and "I hate their guts".

“There’s so many athletes, tennis players around the world,” he continued, trying to put his life into some kind of perspective, “they want to be the best in what they do. They want to succeed. Many of them, they don’t succeed in the end. I’m fortunate to have this opportunity and succeed.”
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