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post #1 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-20-2011, 04:03 PM Thread Starter
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Saving Private Manning

Some good readings to awake some sleeping consciousness in the United States, once a beacon of freedom and democracy, now a state of terror and repression.

First for those who don't know who is the human right's hero Brad Manning.



This boy takes nearly a year and a half being tortured because he provided evidence of war crimes in Iraq by the U.S. Army. For being a man of honor and be aware of the horror he faces a death penalty. But now in America is better to commit a war crime than expose one. Great stuff from the Peace Nobel prize

Amnesty International condemns ‘inhumane’ treatment of Bradley Manning

Letter to president Obama signed by Rosanne Cash, Daniel Ellsberg, Shepard Fairey, Danny Glover, Jane Hamsher, Tom Morello, Viggo Mortensen, Michael Stipe, Michael Rattner, The Center for Constitutional Rights, Government Accountability Project, Center for Constitutional Rights and Amnesty International to asking him to stop torture the soldier Manning.

Why Bradley Manning Is a Patriot, Not a Criminal: An Opening Statement for the Defense of Private Manning

The US State Department spokesman has been forced to resign after calling the treatment of a US solider accused of leaking documents to WikiLeaks “stupid.”

Please sign for the liberation of Brad Manning and donate to help pay his legal defense.

Supports all soldiers who refuse to act as war criminals

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post #2 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-20-2011, 04:10 PM
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Re: Saving Private Manning

A traitor by any other name is still a traitor.

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post #3 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-20-2011, 04:33 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Saving Private Manning

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Originally Posted by buddyholly View Post
A traitor by any other name is still a traitor.
Oh, the resident teabagger of MTF supporting the torture and the war crimes, what a surprise!

Shame on you for use words like democracy or human rights, because you do only when it suits you. Well, I don't expected anything better from another hypocrite teabagger

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post #4 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-20-2011, 06:19 PM
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Re: Saving Private Manning

He's no hero, he broke the law and put people in jeopardy.

Still, the way they're treating him is reprehensible.


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post #5 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-20-2011, 06:23 PM
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Re: Saving Private Manning

He's not a hero, but he's not a villain. Also, the treatment he is receiving is inhumane and America is supposedly about being innocent until proven guilty, and due process. Instead they are torturing him. And yes, I hate being this guy but I definitely do believe his sexuality has something to do with it.
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post #6 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-20-2011, 06:26 PM
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Re: Saving Private Manning

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Originally Posted by Kiedis View Post
Oh, the resident teabagger of MTF supporting the torture and the war crimes, what a surprise!

Shame on you for use words like democracy or human rights, because you do only when it suits you. Well, I don't expected anything better from another hypocrite teabagger
Replies that veer off topic to criticise the poster are starting to bore me. I have no more time for people who think every different opinion to theirs is the wrong one, but can't say why. It indicates a brain stuck in a single gear. I suspect that subconciously they think that if they label someone as being undesirable, then they alleviate themselves from the responsibility of having to make an intelligent argument.

When Amnesty International has campaigned for every single political prisoner held in - oh, let's say Zimbabwe,
then they could get around to Private Manning, who is no doubt being held in comparative luxury. I haven't seen any accounts of any treatment that I would consider torture. Humiliation, yes, but torture is not a word to be used lightly, otherwise real torture becomes confused with harassment, which is an insult to those people in prisons around the world who are being beaten and abused daily.

I am a dedicated pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage, anti-gun, militant atheist. Hardly teabagger material. I prefer coffee, but not a Zimbabwean roast.

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post #7 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-20-2011, 07:26 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Saving Private Manning

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Originally Posted by buddyholly View Post
Replies that veer off topic to criticise the poster are starting to bore me. I have no more time for people who think every different opinion to theirs is the wrong one, but can't say why. It indicates a brain stuck in a single gear. I suspect that subconciously they think that if they label someone as being undesirable, then they alleviate themselves from the responsibility of having to make an intelligent argument.

When Amnesty International has campaigned for every single political prisoner held in - oh, let's say Zimbabwe,
then they could get around to Private Manning, who is no doubt being held in comparative luxury. I haven't seen any accounts of any treatment that I would consider torture. Humiliation, yes, but torture is not a word to be used lightly, otherwise real torture becomes confused with harassment, which is an insult to those people in prisons around the world who are being beaten and abused daily.

I am a dedicated pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage, anti-gun, militant atheist. Hardly teabagger material. I prefer coffee, but not a Zimbabwean roast.
Quote:
Bradley Manning, the US soldier being held in solitary confinement on suspicion of having released state secrets to WikiLeaks, has spoken out for the first time about what he claims is his punitive and unlawful treatment in military prison.

In an 11-page legal letter released by his lawyer, David Coombs, Manning sets out in his own words how he has been "left to languish under the unduly harsh conditions of max [security] custody" ever since he was brought from Kuwait to the military brig of Quantico marine base in Virginia in July last year. He describes how he was put on suicide watch in January, how he is currently being stripped naked every night, and how he is in general terms being subjected to what he calls "unlawful pre-trial punishment".

It is the first time Manning has spoken publicly about his treatment, having previously only been heard through the intermediaries of his lawyer and a friend. Details that have emerged up to now have inspired the UN to launch an inquiry into whether the conditions amount to torture, and have led to protests to the US government from Amnesty International.

The most graphic passage of the letter is Manning's description of how he was placed on suicide watch for three days from 18 January. "I was stripped of all clothing with the exception of my underwear. My prescription eyeglasses were taken away from me and I was forced to sit in essential blindness."

Manning writes that he believes the suicide watch was imposed not because he was a danger to himself but as retribution for a protest about his treatment held outside Quantico the day before. Immediately before the suicide watch started, he said guards verbally harassed him, taunting him with conflicting orders.

When he was told he was being put on suicide watch, he writes, "I became upset. Out of frustration, I clenched my hair with my fingers and yelled: 'Why are you doing this to me? Why am I being punished? I have done nothing wrong.'"

He also describes the experience of being stripped naked at night and made to stand for parade in the nude, a condition that continues to this day. "The guard told me to stand at parade rest, with my hands behind my back and my legs spaced shoulder-width apart. I stood at parade rest for about three minutes … The [brig supervisor] and the other guards walked past my cell. He looked at me, paused for a moment, then continued to the next cell. I was incredibly embarrassed at having all these people stare at me naked."

Manning has been charged with multiple counts relating to the leaking of hundreds of thousands of secret US government cables, videos and warlogs from Iraq and Afghanistan to WikiLeaks. The charges include "aiding the enemy", which can carry the death penalty.

The legal letter was addressed to the US military authorities and was drawn up in response to their recent decision to keep Manning on a restriction order called Prevention of Injury (PoI). It means he is kept in his cell alone for 23 hours a day and checked every five minutes by guards including, if necessary, through the night.

The letter contains excerpts from the observation records kept in the brig which consistently report that Manning is "respectful, courteous and well spoken" and "does not have any suicidal feelings at this time".

Sixteen separate entries made from 27 August until the records stop on 28 January show that Manning was evaluated by prison psychiatrists who found he was not a danger to himself and should be removed from the PoI order.
One guy is caged one and a half years without trial, treated as harmful wild animal and a prosecutor calls his death just for telling the truth... and all you have to say about the question is he is a traitor. I'm from Spain. Here the fascist dictator Franco killed and torture thousands of my countrymen using the same excuse: they are traitors. All who don't support war crimes, all those who oppose torture are traitors. Those Germans who opposed and denounced the Holocaust were also tortured, executed and acused of traitors. Ahmadineyad called traitors those who demonstrated demanding freedom. In Cuba there are hundreds of people in jail for denouncing the Castro regime... but the Cuban government says they are imprisoned for being traitors. "Traitor®", the favorite word of fascist over the world.

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post #8 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-20-2011, 07:39 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Saving Private Manning

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Originally Posted by Scotso View Post
He's no hero, he broke the law
He broke the law? he has already been convicted? But if he still hasn't been judged... Are you telling me that there is no presumption of innocence in the country 'champion of democracy'?

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and put people in jeopardy
Why? For allegedly sent to Wikileaks a couple of videos where American soldiers aboard a helicopter playing Counter Strike with Iraqi civilians? Well, in any civilized country they should be the ones who were prosecuted, not Manning. It's clear that America now is a pre-fascist country.

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post #9 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-20-2011, 07:53 PM
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Re: Saving Private Manning

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Originally Posted by Kiedis View Post
He broke the law? he has already been convicted? But if still he hasn't been judged... Are you telling me tha there is no presumption of innocence in the country champion of democracy?



Why? For allegedly sent to Wikileaks a couple of videos where American soldiers aboard a helicopter playing Counter Strike with Iraqi civilians? Well, in any civilized country they should be the ones who were prosecuted, not Manning. It's clear that America now is a pre-fascist country.
You fear that the US is a pre-fascist country and yet you disparage peaceful protesters ("teabaggers") whose movement is centered on limited government, a concept that is completely antithetical to fascism?
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post #10 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-20-2011, 08:15 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Saving Private Manning

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You fear that the US is a pre-fascist country and yet you disparage peaceful protesters ("teabaggers") whose movement is centered on limited government, a concept that is completely antithetical to fascism?
I disparage the hypocrisy, dude. The corporatocracy system in United States has put your country into a bunch of bloody wars just for oil. The corporatocracy system in United States had granted a $700 billion bailout for the banks. Pentagon are spending more for war than all 50 States combined spend to run the country. FED, a private isntitution, has provided $9 trillion in loans to banks, corporations to discretion. Currently working and middle class pays all the taxes and the wealthy and corporations barely pay any in your country.

But are these things that motivate teabaggers protests? Do they ask for the end of wars, less spending on military and stop the aid to large corporations? Are they asking a better distribution in the payment of taxes? No, they aren't. They are protesting against immigrants, against aid to the poor, against the welfare state, against the public health system. How many of them have supported the government's abuse towards Manning? Zero. They ask for his death. I guess they are too busy trying to figure out where Obama was born and shooting Mexicans at the border. The problem in USA is not the government, but the corporatocracy that manages the government. And teabaggers are happy with the corporatocracy. In fact they are their puppets.

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post #11 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-20-2011, 08:51 PM
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Re: Saving Private Manning

I don't think you're really following American politics too closely. Here's why:

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Originally Posted by Kiedis View Post
I disparage the hypocrisy, dude. The corporatocracy system in United States has put your country into a bunch of bloody wars just for oil. The corporatocracy system in United States had granted a $700 billion bailout for the banks. Pentagon are spending more for war than all 50 States combined spend to run the country. FED, a private isntitution, has provided $9 trillion in loans to banks, corporations to discretion
Tea partiers hate this, especially the bank bailouts. This is universal amongst the movement. Any google search will make that clear. Some of the incumbent Republicans ousted in primaries last year were sent packing by the tea party explicitly because they supported the bailouts. You may find specific Republican (and Democratic) politicians who support corporate welfare, but Republicans and the tea party aren't synonymous. In fact, you'll find that some of the most conservative politicians, those who identify with the movement the most, are very much against it. Take a look at senators Rand Paul, Jim Demint, and Mike Lee. They're very much against this crap. As for the FED, take a look at Ron Paul, whom many credit with starting the tea party movement. He's probably been the largest critic of the Federal Reserve of any politician in the last century. He even wrote a book called "End the Fed".

Quote:
Currently working and middle class pays all the taxes and the wealthy and corporations barely pay any in your country.
Quote:
Are they asking a better distribution in the payment of taxes? No, they aren't.
Tax rates increase as your income increases and the corporate tax rate is the highest in the developed world (perhaps 2nd highest after Japan?), so I'm not sure where you get this from. Also, unlike most developed nations, the US has no national sales or VAT tax, both of which are regressive, hitting the poor and middle-class the hardest. You'll find that most tea partiers support lowering taxes for everyone.

Quote:
But are these things that motivate teabaggers protests? Do they ask for the end of wars, less spending on military and stop the aid to large corporations? They are protesting against immigrants, against aid to the poor, against the welfare state, against the public health system. How many of them have supported the government's abuse towards Manning? Zero. They ask for his death. I guess they are too busy trying to figure out where Obama was born and shooting Mexicans at the border.
Actually, their protests are motivated primarily by opposition to increasing government spending and the ever-increasing debt burden. This is why they began popping up following the bank bailouts and during the healthcare debate. Brad Manning just isn't relevant to what is primarily a fiscally-oriented movement.

And anyways, how does "protesting against [illegal] immigrants, against aid to the poor, against the welfare state, against the public health system" make one fascist? Do you even know what fascism is? How can advocating for smaller government be considered fascist when the state is central to the fascist political system? You may not like them, but the tea partiers aren't fascist.

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post #12 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-20-2011, 11:02 PM
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Re: Saving Private Manning

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One guy is caged one and a half years without trial, treated as harmful wild animal and a prosecutor calls his death just for telling the truth... and all you have to say about the question is he is a traitor. I'm from Spain. Here the fascist dictator Franco killed and torture thousands of my countrymen using the same excuse: they are traitors. All who don't support war crimes, all those who oppose torture are traitors. Those Germans who opposed and denounced the Holocaust were also tortured, executed and acused of traitors. Ahmadineyad called traitors those who demonstrated demanding freedom. In Cuba there are hundreds of people in jail for denouncing the Castro regime... but the Cuban government says they are imprisoned for being traitors. "Traitor®", the favorite word of fascist over the world.
Really now, you are talking about killing and torturing under Franco, but in the lengthy quote from Manning himself, killing and torture are never mentioned. These words come from the people that are more concerned with smearing the US than with the comforts of any US private. He is just a poster boy to them.

A traitor is someone who provides information to the enemy, knowing he will damage his own country. Assange has stated that it is goal to bring down the US government. That would make him an enemy of the US.

In Iran and Cuba, people are imprisoned for opposing their government, not for betraying their own government. That is not the definition of a traitor. So by trying to relate the arrest of Manning in the US to the imprisonment of political opponents in theocratic or communist states is way off. Having lived in Cuba for so long I soon recognised that every catch-word of Fidel's regime was to cover a lie. Thus, of course, he would call a dissident a traitor, he certainly wouldn't call him a dissident. You could make such a correlation only if Obama imprisoned right wing talk radio hosts. Sounds absurd, right. That is because it is absurd.
Your whole approach is to make absurd comparisons and then say the US is like Iran, Cuba, Hitler and Franco's Spain. Yes, absurd.

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post #13 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-20-2011, 11:08 PM
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Re: Saving Private Manning

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Originally Posted by Kiedis View Post
He broke the law? he has already been convicted? But if he still hasn't been judged... Are you telling me that there is no presumption of innocence in the country 'champion of democracy'?



Why? For allegedly sent to Wikileaks a couple of videos where American soldiers aboard a helicopter playing Counter Strike with Iraqi civilians? Well, in any civilized country they should be the ones who were prosecuted, not Manning. It's clear that America now is a pre-fascist country.
In your first posts you state that Manning illegally provided secret information to the enemy. Therefore I and other posters are going along with your thesis, without seeing the need for a guilty/innocent discussion. But then you also stated that he is being constantly tortured and even Manning himself does not seem to make that claim. So who knows what you consider alleged or proven?

If there were only a couple of videos, that would be different, but there are reportedly hundreds of thousands of items. You have no idea what was in them.

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post #14 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-20-2011, 11:15 PM
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Re: Saving Private Manning

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I guess they are too busy trying to figure out where Obama was born and shooting Mexicans at the border.
It really is a waste of time discussing anything with you. What are your numbers on shooting Mexicans at the border? And source? Please don't include Mexicans shooting Mexicans in your tally.

And speaking of your misuse of words, fascist propaganda style, where in the world are people who cross borders illegally referred to as immigrants? I don't know anywhere. I have never heard of a protest against immigrants in the US, it is a country of immigrants.

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post #15 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-21-2011, 12:12 AM
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Re: Saving Private Manning

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Originally Posted by Kiedis View Post
He broke the law? he has already been convicted? But if he still hasn't been judged... Are you telling me that there is no presumption of innocence in the country 'champion of democracy'?
I'm not his jury, dude.


Quote:
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Why? For allegedly sent to Wikileaks a couple of videos where American soldiers aboard a helicopter playing Counter Strike with Iraqi civilians? Well, in any civilized country they should be the ones who were prosecuted, not Manning. It's clear that America now is a pre-fascist country.
He named people in dangerous situations. You clearly have no understanding of the scope of everything that was released.

I support openness and I favor a completely non-interventionist foreign policy, but a soldier in our military does not have the right to break the law because he feels something being done is unjust. There are legal ways to change laws and address wrongs. To suggest that anyone can simply avoid a law they think is wrong makes laws completely pointless. And if you think something is so heinous you're willing to break the law to speak out about it, you should be prepared for the consequences of that. (And certainly, he went far beyond exposing just the things he felt were wrong, this guy was purposefully trying to harm the country and our military.)

This is wrong for the same reason vigilante justice is wrong. It's not his call to make. He deserves to go to prison for what he's done, no matter his intentions.


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