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post #316 of 350 (permalink) Old 01-30-2013, 01:15 PM
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Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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Originally Posted by ssin View Post
This is an outright utopia, and anyone who has ever visited Israel should know this.
No it is not. It's a real scenario and I personally think it will happen at some point.

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I personally don't like the fact, and I don't believe in separation exclusively, but I do believe that some conflicts can only end through separation and that this is one of such conflicts.
many white south africans held a similar viewpoint back in the seventies.

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The Israelis will probably have to trade the land they occupied (how much land remains to be seen through negotiations) for their long-term security, stable borders will be drawn, refugees will return to their respective defined territories and that's the only peaceful solution that I can see right now.
Yes.

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Many people actually neglect the fact that in many ways Israel as a Jewish state also still fights for its very right to exist. Call me what you want but I believe Jews have the right to their national state called Israel.
But where? Would you accept it if Jews began to colonize a part of Serbia?

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Israel is and will be a secular democracy. IMO, it is still a preferred type of government.
Emphasis on "IMO".

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The rest of the region is not quite compatible with the concept and is not likely to be in foreseeable future, except maybe Lebanon. Israelis have created an oasis in the desert by themselves,you have to see it to believe, they are a proud and diligent nation and no wonder they want to protect what they have created.
Every nation wants to protect what they have created. Palestinians too.

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As someone said, If Serbia could manage a society with 20% of Albanians in its borders, Kosovo would not be separated right now. But in the long run, Serbs and Albanians will live more peacefully now when they are formally separated.
The idea that different peoples must be separated is an old concept of western influence. People with different ethnic roots can learn to co-exist and have for centuries. You need the political will to make it happen. Right now that type of will is absent in modern day Serbia mainly because, I presume, many politicians and people prefer to play a nationalist tune and refuse to accept old conflicts as past and tolerate our differences.

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In 10 years it will look much better than it is at the moment. That's why borders are important, so that people can feel safe and start building relations as free people without being oppressed in any way. When people are free from oppression, in the spirit and the letter, only then they can start the process of rendering borders more and more irrelevant. So first, agreed borders should be drawn, Palestina should become a rightful nation, member of UN family. That would probably mean resettlement of some people in Israel and Palestina, but unfortunately that is the initial price that must be paid to achieve durable peace there, imo.
No, I don't agree at all.
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Palestinians have suffered too much, but if they choose to stick to Hamas, what to expect in the future?
Do they have a choice at this moment? Gazans are going to get hurt, blocked of basic materials and deprived of food items with or without what the Western countries deem as a "terrorist organization". And Hamas wasn't just born in a vacuum. It's part of a process of past and ongoing brutalization of the palestinian people. Right now the Palestinians are against the wall and Hamas at least gives them a sense of dignity in their struggle.
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I think that both sides must choose responsible leaders if they all truly want peace.
This is the type of phrase you'd expect from some UN politician. Sounds good and reasonable but deep down it's just BS that won't lead anywhere. Israel as the oppressor must make the first commitment to the oppressed ones. Right now that will is absent in both the israeli gvt as in the jewish israeli people in general.

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I am astonished by the disregard of Palestinian lives both by Israel but also by the Palestinian leaders themselves. That's irresponsible to their own people, not to mention children who are so often shamelessly used in propaganda wars.
Palestinian leaders are a response to brutalization and occupation that their people have received. That much has happened in pretty much every act of occupation and brutalization throughout human history.

You say no side has their hands cleans? Of course. But that doesn't mean that some hands are dirtier than the others.

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Jerusalem should be proclaimed a condominium between Israel and Palestine imo, demilitarized and with permanent international presence.
a condominium? and you began your post talking about utopias? Now that I believe it will (and should not) never happen.


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post #317 of 350 (permalink) Old 01-30-2013, 02:50 PM
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Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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No it is not. It's a real scenario and I personally think it will happen at some point.
Look abraxas, your points are not necessarily wrong in my view. But the current chasm between the two communities is insurmountable, they will have to start from the scratch, that is why separation at some point is necessary, in terms of borders, not a separation of the apartheid type like in SA (which was btw tyranny of minority over the majority) Democracy will not work in a joint state of Jews and Arabs at this moment, because there is a fundamental disagreement between the two groups about the nature of the supposed state. While I deplore the fact, it is the reality right now, and the most important thing is to stop killings as soon as possible.

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But where? Would you accept it if Jews began to colonize a part of Serbia?
I am afraid the comparison is inadequate, however let me tell you that I personally would welcome any community to Serbia who would contribute to improvement of the overall conditions for everyone. Of course I wouldn't welcome anyone as masters, conquerors or something like that.

But why don't you accept the fact that Jews have a just claim to Israel (not to Serbia for example) as their fatherland? the territory may be very small but it's the land of their forefathers. Let me tell you that I saw places in Israel that were absolutely barren with nothing there before, for centuries, now turned into small paradises. Think of it what you want.

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The idea that different peoples must be separated is an old concept of western influence. People with different ethnic roots can learn to co-exist and have for centuries. You need the political will to make it happen. Right now that type of will is absent in modern day Serbia mainly because, I presume, many politicians and people prefer to play a nationalist tune and refuse to accept old conflicts as past and tolerate our differences.
Official Serbia has the will to have Kosovo in Serbia and ethnic Albanians as its citizens. The question is: is that political will real? But anyways, the Albanians don't even want to consider such an option. Can you blame them? They don't trust or tolerate any kind of Serbia and Palestinians would not trust or tolerate any kind of Israel right now. How are they to establish a joint state? Maybe some 100 years from now. Kosovo is certainly not Palestine, although many Serbs refer to it as Serbian Jerusalem, indeed Kosovo is placed right in the center of Serbian national myth. Otherwise, I can imagine Serbs would gladly separate from Albanians. That's the sad reality, when you place history and tradition over the lives of living people, and that's what they are doing now in Israel, too.

I am sorry but wiping out Israel from the map is not how I see the solution of the problem. SO if we agree that Israel has the right to exist, what happens next? How would you solve the problem?


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Do they have a choice at this moment? Gazans are going to get hurt, blocked of basic materials and deprived of food items with or without what the Western countries deem as a "terrorist organization". And Hamas wasn't just born in a vacuum. It's part of a process of past and ongoing brutalization of the palestinian people. Right now the Palestinians are against the wall and Hamas at least gives them a sense of dignity in their struggle.
You may be right, but the way I see it, Hamas and Jewish extremists are the best friends. They feed off each other. I wouldn't be surprised if Hamas itself is at least partly a creation of some Israeli political and intelligence circles. SO, the first thing must be elimination of the extremism from the political process, it is a task for both Jews and Arabs. Palestinians should be aware of that, love for their own people must prevail over their (justified) hatred towards Israel.

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This is the type of phrase you'd expect from some UN politician. Sounds good and reasonable but deep down it's just BS that won't lead anywhere. Israel as the oppressor must make the first commitment to the oppressed ones. Right now that will is absent in both the israeli gvt as in the jewish israeli people in general.
Palestinian leaders are a response to brutalization and occupation that their people have received. That much has happened in pretty much every act of occupation and brutalization throughout human history.
To break the vicious circle, both sides must make painful decisions. Otherwise they will continue to heap reactions on reactions forever, and continue justifying everything they do. It's as simple as that.

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You say no side has their hands cleans? Of course. But that doesn't mean that some hands are dirtier than the others.
True, but still both of us should refrain from taking sides here, don't you think? We should live there to see how it really looks like, at least I visited Israel once. I do condemn Israel military actions that result in so many civilians killed, but in no way I can justify Hamas.

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a condominium? and you began your post talking about utopias? Now that I believe it will (and should not) never happen.
Unlike many other things, I do believe that this is something that we will live to see. I think that the solution for Jerusalem is international presence and joint government supervised by a UN authority. It may be the core of a lasting understanding between the Jews and the Arabs, something that might be used to build future on. But both sides will have to swallow a bitter pill initially.
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post #318 of 350 (permalink) Old 01-30-2013, 03:22 PM
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Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

ssin how was ur visit? i hope u will bring nole next time ur here

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things were created to be used.
The reason why the world is in chaos is because things are being loved, and people are being used."

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post #319 of 350 (permalink) Old 01-30-2013, 03:49 PM
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Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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ssin how was ur visit? i hope u will bring nole next time ur here
It was a business trip, we wanted to buy something from you guys It was only 3 days, but a very enjoyable visit, very impressive. Hopefully not the last one. Even before that I had great respect for Jewish people. The hosts were great and I felt like at home.

Next month, on 15th, I will travel to Abu Dhabi, this time we will try to sell something and explore possibilities to see whether they could invest I wouldn't want to break some local law, so I will read a little bit about it before I go.

I hope you will be safe and happy, wish you all the best, all of you in the beautiful land Israel.
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post #320 of 350 (permalink) Old 01-30-2013, 03:56 PM
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Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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It was a business trip, we wanted to buy something from you guys It was only 3 days, but a very enjoyable visit, very impressive. Hopefully not the last one. Even before that I had great respect for Jewish people. The hosts were great and I felt like at home.

Next month, on 15th, I will travel to Abu Dhabi, this time we will try to sell something and explore possibilities to see whether they could invest I wouldn't want to break some local law, so I will read a little bit about it before I go.

I hope you will be safe and happy, wish you all the best, all of you in the beautiful land Israel.
can i ask what did you wanted to buy?

glad u had fub, its a great place, very different from what ppl think or see in on the TV.

i hope u will come again, pm maybe i will tell u about the cool places if u will have time.

im happy ur Impressed

Hug it out as long as it takes, people
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The reason why the world is in chaos is because things are being loved, and people are being used."

"יברכך ה' וישמרך,יאר ה' פניו אליך ויחונך,ישא ה' פניו אליך וישם לך שלום"
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post #321 of 350 (permalink) Old 01-30-2013, 04:01 PM
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Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

forget about my question, i already know what u wanted to buy, indeed u know ur Business if u wanted that.

Hug it out as long as it takes, people
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"People were created to be loved
things were created to be used.
The reason why the world is in chaos is because things are being loved, and people are being used."

"יברכך ה' וישמרך,יאר ה' פניו אליך ויחונך,ישא ה' פניו אליך וישם לך שלום"
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post #322 of 350 (permalink) Old 01-30-2013, 04:07 PM
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Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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can i ask what did you wanted to buy?

glad u had fub, its a great place, very different from what ppl think or see in on the TV.

i hope u will come again, pm maybe i will tell u about the cool places if u will have time.

im happy ur Impressed
I will be glad to contact you next time, I definitely want to visit again, it was too short and tell you all about the things This time I can send you a postcard from Abu Dhabi, if you don't mind it

If people just had more opportunities to travel around, it would significantly reduce the level of mistrust and prejudice.It is so much easier to manipulate with people about places they basically know very little or nothing about.
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post #323 of 350 (permalink) Old 01-30-2013, 04:14 PM
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Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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I will be glad to contact you next time, I definitely want to visit again, it was too short and tell you all about the things This time I can send you a postcard from Abu Dhabi, if you don't mind it

If people just had more opportunities to travel around, it would significantly reduce the level of mistrust and prejudice.It is so much easier to manipulate with people about places they basically know very little or nothing about.
well a lot of ppl who never visit the place think they know the place, i can guess that u saw a lot of different things when u were here then things u thought or saw on tv b4 ur visit.

feel free to pm next time

Hug it out as long as it takes, people
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"People were created to be loved
things were created to be used.
The reason why the world is in chaos is because things are being loved, and people are being used."

"יברכך ה' וישמרך,יאר ה' פניו אליך ויחונך,ישא ה' פניו אליך וישם לך שלום"
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post #324 of 350 (permalink) Old 01-30-2013, 04:34 PM
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Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

When I come, take me to Tel Aviv, to the seaside and some unholy places. I have seen enough of holy places
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post #325 of 350 (permalink) Old 01-30-2013, 04:38 PM
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Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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When I come, take me to Tel Aviv, to the seaside and some unholy places. I have seen enough of holy places
i live 15 minutes from tel aviv, no holy places lol

Hug it out as long as it takes, people
--------------------------------------------
"People were created to be loved
things were created to be used.
The reason why the world is in chaos is because things are being loved, and people are being used."

"יברכך ה' וישמרך,יאר ה' פניו אליך ויחונך,ישא ה' פניו אליך וישם לך שלום"
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post #326 of 350 (permalink) Old 01-30-2013, 05:25 PM
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Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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Originally Posted by ssin View Post
It was a business trip, we wanted to buy something from you guys It was only 3 days, but a very enjoyable visit, very impressive. Hopefully not the last one. Even before that I had great respect for Jewish people. The hosts were great and I felt like at home.

Next month, on 15th, I will travel to Abu Dhabi, this time we will try to sell something and explore possibilities to see whether they could invest I wouldn't want to break some local law, so I will read a little bit about it before I go.

I hope you will be safe and happy, wish you all the best, all of you in the beautiful land Israel.
just a question

if you get your passport stamped in Israel, do you have then problems to travel to UAE?

http://www.menstennisforums.com/show...&postcount=378

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That will be the last victory of Rafa for quite some time.. With his joke mentality and pathetic game, I hope the disgusting player loses every single match next season. He's disgraceful. He should just retire. He's a joke.
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(10) Corey Feldman vs. (12) scarecrows
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post #327 of 350 (permalink) Old 01-30-2013, 05:47 PM
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Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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just a question

if you get your passport stamped in Israel, do you have then problems to travel to UAE?
My new passport is from 2010 so I don't have the stamp now. I remember there was a problem to get with Israeli stamp to Syria before, but I don't expect any problems for UAE. Hmmm I still have all kinds of stamps and visas in my passport, maybe I should check the issue a little bit.
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post #328 of 350 (permalink) Old 01-30-2013, 05:56 PM
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Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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My new passport is from 2010 so I don't have the stamp now. I remember there was a problem to get with Israeli stamp to Syria before, but I don't expect any problems for UAE. Hmmm I still have all kinds of stamps and visas in my passport, maybe I should check the issue a little bit.
when i went to Israel I was told to ask authorities not to stamp my passport if I planned to go to Arab countries afterwards

http://www.menstennisforums.com/show...&postcount=378

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That will be the last victory of Rafa for quite some time.. With his joke mentality and pathetic game, I hope the disgusting player loses every single match next season. He's disgraceful. He should just retire. He's a joke.
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Originally Posted by l_mac View Post
(10) Corey Feldman vs. (12) scarecrows
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post #329 of 350 (permalink) Old 01-30-2013, 06:04 PM
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Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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when i went to Israel I was told to ask authorities not to stamp my passport if I planned to go to Arab countries afterwards
Yes, I remember there was this issue, they specifically mentioned Syria, however I'm not sure all the Arab countries have or had the same policy and we were on a official trip. I have never been to any Arab country before, any tips from you if you have been there?

edit: And maybe it will come as a little bit of surprise to you, but I was in Tirana no less than 3 times
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post #330 of 350 (permalink) Old 01-30-2013, 06:05 PM
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Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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Yes, I remember there was this issue, they specifically mentioned Syria, however I'm not sure all the Arab countries have or had the same policy and we were on a official trip. I have never been to any Arab country before, any tips from you if you have been there?
never unfortunately

http://www.menstennisforums.com/show...&postcount=378

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Originally Posted by FormerRafaFan View Post
That will be the last victory of Rafa for quite some time.. With his joke mentality and pathetic game, I hope the disgusting player loses every single match next season. He's disgraceful. He should just retire. He's a joke.
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Originally Posted by l_mac View Post
(10) Corey Feldman vs. (12) scarecrows
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