Clydey and Friends' Philosophical Paradise - Page 3 - MensTennisForums.com

View Poll Results: Is Hinduism more or less rational than the major religions?
It's more rational. 1 3.70%
It's less rational. 3 11.11%
It is no more and no less rational than any other religion ou there. 12 44.44%
I don't know enough about it to give an educated opinion. 11 40.74%
Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #31 of 699 (permalink) Old 11-30-2008, 03:20 AM Thread Starter
Cutedey
 
Clydey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 34
Posts: 13,308
                     
Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingLamb View Post
I said if it was "evolutionarily inferior" it would have ceased to exist. Not if it was genetic.
No, that is not necessarily true. Under no circumstances can you guarantee the extinction of homosexuality unless all we had were same sex couples who refused to have sex with anything but their own gender. Homosexuals can still reproduce and they do still reproduce.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingLamb View Post
Yes, if anything, it seems like it's triggered by environmental events. Evolution can only work on heritable traits. So it's not accurate to call homosexuals "inferior from an evolutionary perspective", since evolution does not act on homosexuality.
It has nothing to do with passing on a homosexual gene. It has to do with the likelihood that homosexuals will procreate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingLamb View Post
You don't know that for sure. But let's assume that homosexuals are in fact less likely to pass on their genes. This will do absolutely nothing to homosexuality itself. And I'm not sure how it really matters how much of their genes they will pass on.
Yes, I do know that for a fact. You do know that same-sex couples can't conceive naturally, right?

Heterosexual couples can and do. For a homosexual to reproduce, they would have to have intercourse with the opposite sex. I can't believe I actually have to explain this.

It is much, much more likely that homosexuals will not pass on their genes. How on earth can you argue otherwise?

You just aren't getting it. This is about what best serves the species, not about passing on certain heritable traits.

'Nous nous tournons vers l’Écosse pour trouver toutes nos idées sur la civilisation' - Voltaire
Clydey is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 699 (permalink) Old 11-30-2008, 03:21 AM
Faithful Txurigorri
 
Arkulari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Age: 31
Posts: 24,903
                     
Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by raginglamb
^males could donate to sperm banks.
I know, but it's not the same, 'cuz they cannot choose who will get their sperm
while women can choose whose sperm they want

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoo Foo
there are also egg donors and gestational surrogates so really $$$ is the only thing keeping a gay man from passing his own genes on to his child.
of course, but my point is that males have to go and find all that, while women just need to look at a catalogue and choose what they want


I haven't met the first son/daughter of a homosexual couple that is a homosexual as well, it isn't genetically transferred nor goes in the environment

is simply something in the genes of every individual that makes them get their sexual orientation

Rafael "The Matador of Spin" Nadal
Roger “The Magician of Precision” Federer
Del Potro, Ferrer, Haas, Zeballos



Last edited by Arkulari; 11-30-2008 at 03:26 AM.
Arkulari is offline  
post #33 of 699 (permalink) Old 11-30-2008, 03:23 AM
Registered User
 
Snoo Foo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 28,936
                     
Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
Heterosexual couples can and do. For a homosexual to reproduce, they would have to have intercourse with the opposite sex. I can't believe I actually have to explain this.
OK, I'm starting to understand. In my country, where I live, we have stuff like in vitro fertilization and all kinds of stuff whereby people - homosexual, heterosexual, asexual, you name it - can reproduce without having intercourse with anyone. It happens all the time, every day, hundreds or thousands of times over. I can't believe I actually have to explain this.
Snoo Foo is offline  
post #34 of 699 (permalink) Old 11-30-2008, 03:23 AM Thread Starter
Cutedey
 
Clydey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 34
Posts: 13,308
                     
Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoo Foo View Post
how the hell do wisdom teeth show that evolution isn't perfect? wisdom teeth are an example of how amazing evolution is.



yeah, and humanity will survive with homosexuals.
Yes, but humanity would not survive without heterosexuals. It would survive without homosexuals. It is a fact that heterosexuality is better for the species. Again, that is not me saying that homosexuality is wrong.

And wisdom teeth are redundant. If anything, they do more harm than good. We no longer need them, yet we still have them. Evolution is astounding. It isn't perfect.

'Nous nous tournons vers l’Écosse pour trouver toutes nos idées sur la civilisation' - Voltaire
Clydey is offline  
post #35 of 699 (permalink) Old 11-30-2008, 03:26 AM Thread Starter
Cutedey
 
Clydey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 34
Posts: 13,308
                     
Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoo Foo View Post
OK, I'm starting to understand. In my country, where I live, we have stuff like in vitro fertilization and all kinds of stuff whereby people - homosexual, heterosexual, asexual, you name it - can reproduce without having intercourse with anyone. It happens all the time, every day, hundreds or thousands of times over. I can't believe I actually have to explain this.
That is not nature, however. Evolution deals with natural selection. We are talking about evolution, a natural phenomenon. From a purely evolutionary perspective, where we do not take technology into account, heterosexuality is more desirable.

'Nous nous tournons vers l’Écosse pour trouver toutes nos idées sur la civilisation' - Voltaire
Clydey is offline  
post #36 of 699 (permalink) Old 11-30-2008, 03:26 AM
Registered User
 
Snoo Foo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 28,936
                     
Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsFedex View Post
I know, but it's not the same, 'cuz they cannot choose who will get their sperm
while women can choose whose sperm they want
In my country, we have such things as egg donors, and the men can choose where to put their sperm just as easily as women can choose whose sperm they get.
Snoo Foo is offline  
post #37 of 699 (permalink) Old 11-30-2008, 03:26 AM
¡Hala Madrid!
 
wildegirl05's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 19,835
                     
Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

clydey, you're making assumptions that then prove your "case".

you're assuming sexuality falls into two categories - homo and hetero. it could be fluid continuum.

you're assuming that homosexuals are unlikely to have sex merely to reproduce, if they have the urge to recreate - do you have stats to back this up? i'm guessing all you're making is the very simplistic argument that two members of the same gender having sex together cannot produce offspring. that's about all the "fact" there is. from there to making claims about evolution/procreation and sexuality is just giant leaps of "what ifs" and suspending the use of technology and as has been pointed out already - completely irrelevant and pointless to anything related to gay rights.

you're also assuming that heterosexuals and procreation are somehow givens. again, outside of the tab a/slot b sorta basic argument, it just ignores information on choices/ability/a host of socio-economic factors - all of which have huge impacts on procreation and "serving" the human species.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkulari View Post
The referee help has been pretty blatant in many CL matches for Barcelona
Quote:
Originally Posted by Action Jackson View Post
What penalty? Messi dived.
wildegirl05 is offline  
post #38 of 699 (permalink) Old 11-30-2008, 03:28 AM
Registered User
 
Snoo Foo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 28,936
                     
Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

From a purely evolutionary perspective, where we do not take technology into account, wisdom teeth are more desirable.
Snoo Foo is offline  
post #39 of 699 (permalink) Old 11-30-2008, 03:30 AM
Faithful Txurigorri
 
Arkulari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Age: 31
Posts: 24,903
                     
Red face Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoo Foo View Post
In my country, we have such things as egg donors, and the men can choose where to put their sperm just as easily as women can choose whose sperm they get.
yeah, but then, they have to find who can carry those
I have a male gay friend who wanted to get his own biological child and besides choosing eggs, he had to choose the surrogate, pay her, pay for the insemination, all their necessities, etc
it's way more difficult and expensive for a male to do that, besides it's something very hard to ask from a female friend, pregnancy and childbirth is not something easy, unlike coming in a cup

Rafael "The Matador of Spin" Nadal
Roger “The Magician of Precision” Federer
Del Potro, Ferrer, Haas, Zeballos


Arkulari is offline  
post #40 of 699 (permalink) Old 11-30-2008, 03:31 AM
¡Hala Madrid!
 
wildegirl05's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 19,835
                     
Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
That is not nature, however. Evolution deals with natural selection. We are talking about evolution, a natural phenomenon. From a purely evolutionary perspective, where we do not take technology into account, heterosexuality is more desirable.
nope, from a purely evolutionary standpoint - a viable sperm fertilizing an available egg is desirable. that's it. sexuality is only one aspect of procreation, not all of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkulari View Post
The referee help has been pretty blatant in many CL matches for Barcelona
Quote:
Originally Posted by Action Jackson View Post
What penalty? Messi dived.
wildegirl05 is offline  
post #41 of 699 (permalink) Old 11-30-2008, 03:31 AM Thread Starter
Cutedey
 
Clydey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 34
Posts: 13,308
                     
Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildegirl05 View Post
clydey, you're making assumptions that then prove your "case".

you're assuming sexuality falls into two categories - homo and hetero. it could be fluid continuum.

you're assuming that homosexuals are unlikely to have sex merely to reproduce, if they have the urge to recreate - do you have stats to back this up? i'm guessing all you're making is the very simplistic argument that two members of the same gender having sex together cannot produce offspring. that's about all the "fact" there is. from there to making claims about evolution/procreation and sexuality is just giant leaps of "what ifs" and suspending the use of technology and as has been pointed out already - completely irrelevant and pointless to anything related to gay rights.

you're also assuming that heterosexuals and procreation are somehow givens. again, outside of the tab a/slot b sorta basic argument, it just ignores information on choices/ability/a host of socio-economic factors - all of which have huge impacts on procreation and "serving" the human species.
I'm sure many do have the desire to reproduce. It's a fact that they do not reproduce as often as heterosexuals though. Asking for evidence to back that statement is ridiculous. It is common sense.

There are ways for homosexuals to pass on their genes, such as a surrogate pregnancy or artificial insemination. However, these are not as convenient as a traditional relationship. Nowhere near as convenient, in fact.

'Nous nous tournons vers l’Écosse pour trouver toutes nos idées sur la civilisation' - Voltaire
Clydey is offline  
post #42 of 699 (permalink) Old 11-30-2008, 03:32 AM
¡Hala Madrid!
 
wildegirl05's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 19,835
                     
Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsFedex View Post
yeah, but then, they have to find who can carry those
I have a male gay friend who wanted to get his own biological child and besides choosing eggs, he had to choose the surrogate, pay her, pay for the insemination, all their necessities, etc
it's way more difficult and expensive for a male to do that, besides it's something very hard to ask from a female friend, pregnancy and childbirth is not something easy, unlike coming in a cup
there is surrogate outsourcing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkulari View Post
The referee help has been pretty blatant in many CL matches for Barcelona
Quote:
Originally Posted by Action Jackson View Post
What penalty? Messi dived.
wildegirl05 is offline  
post #43 of 699 (permalink) Old 11-30-2008, 03:33 AM
¡Hala Madrid!
 
wildegirl05's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 19,835
                     
Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
I'm sure many do have the desire to reproduce. It's a fact that they do not reproduce as often as heterosexuals though. Asking for evidence to back that statement is ridiculous. It is common sense.

There are ways for homosexuals to pass on their genes, such as a surrogate pregnancy or artificial insemination. However, these are not as convenient as a traditional relationship. Nowhere near as convenient, in fact.
it is not ridiculous in the least. do you know if homosexual men are less likely to contribute their sperm to a sperm bank, for instance? or that lesbian women are less likely to want to carry a child? i don't know the stats but i certainly wouldn't consider those scenarios ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkulari View Post
The referee help has been pretty blatant in many CL matches for Barcelona
Quote:
Originally Posted by Action Jackson View Post
What penalty? Messi dived.
wildegirl05 is offline  
post #44 of 699 (permalink) Old 11-30-2008, 03:33 AM Thread Starter
Cutedey
 
Clydey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 34
Posts: 13,308
                     
Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildegirl05 View Post
nope, from a purely evolutionary standpoint - a viable sperm fertilizing an available egg is desirable. that's it. sexuality is only one aspect of procreation, not all of it.
Yes, but the natural desire to be with someone of the opposite sex more readily lends itself to reproduction.

I'm not disputing that homosexuals can and do pass on their genes. They simply do not do it with the same frequency. Therefore, it is less desirable from an evolutionary viewpoint.

'Nous nous tournons vers l’Écosse pour trouver toutes nos idées sur la civilisation' - Voltaire
Clydey is offline  
post #45 of 699 (permalink) Old 11-30-2008, 03:34 AM
Motherhater
 
RagingLamb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Age: 35
Posts: 5,571
                     
Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
This is about what best serves the species, not about passing on certain heritable traits.

are you saying the species would be better served if there was no homosexuality?
RagingLamb is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the MensTennisForums.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome