Clydey and Friends' Philosophical Paradise - Page 14 - MensTennisForums.com
View Poll Results: Is Hinduism more or less rational than the major religions?
It's more rational. 1 3.70%
It's less rational. 3 11.11%
It is no more and no less rational than any other religion ou there. 12 44.44%
I don't know enough about it to give an educated opinion. 11 40.74%
Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll

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post #196 of 699 (permalink) Old 12-02-2008, 09:44 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

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Originally Posted by GhostUnholy View Post

And as you say, if you are a 6/7 of 7 on the scale of atheism, you are not really an athiest. Atheism requires 100% conviction.
I disagree with an awful lot of what you said. I feel that it would be pointless to continue the argument, however. From my perspective, what you're doing amounts to literary gymnastics.

The part I've quoted is something I do wish to pick you up on. You have contradicted yourself seemingly without even realising it. You said atheism requires 100% conviction, which simply is not true.

The definition of an atheist, as supplied by the link you quoted, is "one who believes that there is no deity."

The key word is "believes". An atheist is not saying with 100% conviction that there is no God. An atheist says that they do not believe there is a God. Massive difference between the two.

A 7 on the scale I provided is complete certainty that no God exists. An agnostic (4 on the scale) is someone who has not decided whether they think a God exists or not. They are undecided. Atheism is completely rational. It is no different to Aunicornism.

Whatever your definition of a deity, it cannot possibly be considered irrational to not believe in something that there is no evidence for.

'Nous nous tournons vers l’Écosse pour trouver toutes nos idées sur la civilisation' - Voltaire
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post #197 of 699 (permalink) Old 12-02-2008, 10:00 PM
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Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

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I disagree with an awful lot of what you said. I feel that it would be pointless to continue the argument, however. From my perspective, what you're doing amounts to literary gymnastics.
I'm not surprised it seemed that way since I tried to keep it as short as I could, not argue the points as effectively as they could. I don't feel like writing a thesis on a message board. I'm just providing some food for thought.

Quote:
The part I've quoted is something I do wish to pick you up on. You have contradicted yourself seemingly without even realising it. You said atheism requires 100% conviction, which simply is not true.

The definition of an atheist, as supplied by the link you quoted, is "one who believes that there is no deity."

The key word is "believes". An atheist is not saying with 100% conviction that there is no God. An atheist says that they do not believe there is a God. Massive difference between the two.
You're right on this one, my mistake. I had actually considered deleting that part right after posting it but then left it, since I figured it would be silly to run to cover up my errors.

Quote:
A 7 on the scale I provided is complete certainty that no God exists. An agnostic (4 on the scale) is someone who has not decided whether they think a God exists or not. They are undecided. Atheism is completely rational. It is no different to Aunicornism.

Whatever your definition of a deity, it cannot possibly be considered irrational to not believe in something that there is no evidence for.
This has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. You're repeating yourself. And yes, the definition does clearly matter, since we're not talking about anything close to the same thing.
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post #198 of 699 (permalink) Old 12-03-2008, 12:18 AM
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Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

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Atheism requires faith? I really have no idea how you could come to that conclusion. Atheism is simply the absence of a belief in deities.
It really depends on how the word is being used. A lot of atheists don't just have the absence of belief in a "God," but assert that there isn't one. Since they have absolutely no evidence, it does require "faith."

Generally the correct term for people who admit to not knowing is agnosticism.


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post #199 of 699 (permalink) Old 12-03-2008, 12:33 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

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It really depends on how the word is being used. A lot of atheists don't just have the absence of belief in a "God," but assert that there isn't one. Since they have absolutely no evidence, it does require "faith."

Generally the correct term for people who admit to not knowing is agnosticism.
The definition of an atheist is an absence of belief in deities. It is not an assertion. Like I said before, it is no different to an absence of belief in fairies or unicorns. Agnosticism is the term for people who are undecided. What you are suggesting is akin to suggesting that not believing in fairies requires faith. The burden of proof is on those who believe there is a deity.

I am an atheist. I firmly believe that there is no God. I would never state with certainty that no God exists, however. It's simply nonsense to say that not believing in an omnipotent space daddy requires faith.

'Nous nous tournons vers l’Écosse pour trouver toutes nos idées sur la civilisation' - Voltaire
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post #200 of 699 (permalink) Old 12-03-2008, 12:36 AM
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Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

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I'm incapable of walking away when my opinions are being misrepresented. It's my cross to bear.
Aww, you poor thing.


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post #201 of 699 (permalink) Old 12-03-2008, 12:39 AM
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Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

I am an Atheist. The word-God doesn't cross my mind until somebody mentions it. I don't wake up in the morning thinking about how there is no God. I don't go to bed thinking that God doesn't exist.
What faith are you talking about? And, the burden of proof is not on Atheists.

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post #202 of 699 (permalink) Old 12-03-2008, 12:39 AM
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Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

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Clydey's just saying homosexuals are less reproductively fit, which could be true, if all heterosexual couples had kids and as alfonsojose said, if there were no closet homosexuals who were involved in hetero relationships, etc.
You don't even need to get into these details. The fact of the matter is that homosexuals can reproduce just as well as heterosexuals.


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post #203 of 699 (permalink) Old 12-03-2008, 12:42 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

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I am an Atheist. The word-God doesn't cross my mind until somebody mentions it. I don't wake up in the morning thinking about how there is no God. I don't go to bed thinking that God doesn't exist.
What faith are you talking about? And, the burden of proof is not on Atheists.
Precisely.

Sam Harris has a point when he says we shouldn't really have a word for not believing in deities. We don't have a word for not believing in astrology, crystal healing, leprechauns etc. Consequently, having a word for disbelief has led to people thinking that atheism is in itself a religion.

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post #204 of 699 (permalink) Old 12-03-2008, 12:42 AM
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Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

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Yep. Atrocious book, and some call it the 'Word of God???' :retard:
The bible is made up of so many different sources that you can't really talk about it as a whole. The old testament was written before Christ and as such isn't always in accordance with the word of Jesus. A clear example of that is "an eye for an eye" becoming "But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also... Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you ...". Religions do evolve over time.
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You can't really excuse it either. God's word is supposed to be inerrant, so I have no idea how one reconciles one's morality with the old testament.

Don't even get me started on honour killings. I read a horrible story not so long ago about a young muslim girl who became friends with someone in the British army. Her father objected to this and began to beat her to death for bringing shame on the family. Her mother called on her brothers to stop the father. However, the brothers joined in and helped their father beat the girl to death.

That infuriates me.
The Koran doesn't promote or even permit honour killings. Many people are scum and will remain so regardless of what religion they follow.
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Exactly. You just have to look at what goes on in the world, all the injustices, the atrocities. If a God does exist, is it a God even worth worshipping?
It'd be a god that chose to give us free will, despite knowing all the crap we could do with it

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By that criteria, we have already disproved God's existence. The Genesis story has long since been debunked, so that proves that <insert holy book of your choice here> is mistaken.

There are so many Gods people have believed in over the years that you would need to specify which God we're trying to disprove. If the universe does have an origin, discovering it would not disprove the existence of a supreme being. Such a discovery would simply mean that the universe wasn't created by a supreme being. It is utterly impossible to disprove any God's existence. It doesn't matter what technology we have. You simply cannot disprove something like that.

As we know, religion changes with the times. Catholics have been forced to reconcile their beliefs with the theory of evolution. Debunking parts of the bible does not disprove God's existence. It can't be done.

Yes, it is. As I explained, discovering the universe's origins does absolutely nothing to disprove the existence of a deity, just as the theory of evolution did not debunk the Judaeo-Christian God.
I agree that we can never prove or disprove the existence of god.
I completely disagree about "debunking parts of the bible" though, since there is nothing to debunk. Only complete morons can think mankind was created 6000 years ago and that we lived with dinosaures, even the pope agreed the book of genesis was primarily metaphorical.

I'm an atheist and I always wonder why some people have faifth that god exists and others just don't, but as far as I'm concerned, we're all wrong because we're making assumptions based on absolutely zero facts, or at least far too few to conclude anything. Bottom line agnostics rule
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post #205 of 699 (permalink) Old 12-03-2008, 12:45 AM
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Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

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While you are right, deductive reasoning cannot prove that god doesn't exist, you need to recognize something.

The statement of Atheism is that God does not exist. (a negative)
Therefore, you are stating that the universe was not created by god. (a negative)
Therefore you are stating that reality/the universe originated by some other means.
Oh, sorry, you beat me to it.


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post #206 of 699 (permalink) Old 12-03-2008, 12:49 AM
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Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

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What you are suggesting is akin to suggesting that not believing in fairies requires faith. The burden of proof is on those who believe there is a deity.
Not believing in fairies does require faith. It's illogical to suggest anything doesn't exist, because you can't possibly have the necessary proof.


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post #207 of 699 (permalink) Old 12-03-2008, 12:51 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

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The bible is made up of so many different sources that you can't really talk about it as a whole. The old testament was written before Christ and as such isn't always in accordance with the word of Jesus. A clear example of that is "an eye for an eye" becoming "But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also... Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you ...". Religions do evolve over time.

The Koran doesn't promote or even permit honour killings. Many people are scum and will remain so regardless of what religion they follow.

It'd be a god that chose to give us free will, despite knowing all the crap we could do with it


I agree that we can never prove or disprove the existence of god.
I completely disagree about "debunking parts of the bible" though, since there is nothing to debunk. Only complete morons can think mankind was created 6000 years ago and that we lived with dinosaures, even the pope agreed the book of genesis was primarily metaphorical.
No, the pope had to find away around the fact of evolution. Before On The Origin of Species, it was widely believed that the bible had it right and that the world was 6000 years old. People only suggested it was metaphorical when there was no other option. The theory of evolution had been proven beyond all reasonable doubt, so they had to reconcile their beliefs with indisputable facts.

Agnostics are undecided. Atheists say they don't believe in God. It's up for the religious to provide proof, not non-religious people. You can't say not believing in a God is unreasonable. I could make up some crazy shit on the spot and you could not provide a shred of evidence to prove me wrong. You wouldn't believe what I was saying, but would that make you unreasonable?

I have an invisible horse that accompanies me wherever I go. Are you an agnostic when it comes to my invisible horse?

'Nous nous tournons vers l’Écosse pour trouver toutes nos idées sur la civilisation' - Voltaire
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post #208 of 699 (permalink) Old 12-03-2008, 12:53 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

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Not believing in fairies does require faith. It's illogical to suggest anything doesn't exist, because you can't possibly have the necessary proof.
No, it's not illogical. What you seem to be prescribing is Cartesian skepticism, which simply isn't practical.

Is it illogical to not believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

'Nous nous tournons vers l’Écosse pour trouver toutes nos idées sur la civilisation' - Voltaire
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post #209 of 699 (permalink) Old 12-03-2008, 12:55 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

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Oh, sorry, you beat me to it.
You must have missed the part where he conceded that he was wrong on that point. Here, I'll quote him for you.

"You're right on this one, my mistake. I had actually considered deleting that part right after posting it but then left it, since I figured it would be silly to run to cover up my errors."

'Nous nous tournons vers l’Écosse pour trouver toutes nos idées sur la civilisation' - Voltaire
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post #210 of 699 (permalink) Old 12-03-2008, 01:02 AM
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Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

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Generally the correct term for people who admit to not knowing is agnosticism.
Nobody knows. Does that make everyone an agnostic? May as well get rid of the term.

Atheism or theism is not about knowing, but believing. So an agnostic would be someone who doesn't know if he believes in a god or not. Nobody should be like that.

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